# Comment On Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

Avoiding MUMPS from Joe [expand full text]
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### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-18 16:54 • by Kevin (unregistered)
 imagine you are programming in a special language with only a limited set of operators, how would you code the solution to this problem? Umm, pull out a tooth and sit on it until the code-fairy came to sprinkle magical dust in my keyboard that created new special shortcut keys that instantly wrote entire blocks of perfect code in a single keystroke. Really... my reply would be wtf kinda question is that?

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-18 17:29 • by lantastik (unregistered)

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-18 17:35 • by S (unregistered)
 KG:I hate work - always have and always will. And this is why you will be a miserable person and a failure in life. This quote either demonstrates how you are not in a field you like, or you have zero work ethic.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-18 17:40 • by Schnapple (unregistered)
 Kevin: imagine you are programming in a special language with only a limited set of operators, how would you code the solution to this problem? Umm, pull out a tooth and sit on it until the code-fairy came to sprinkle magical dust in my keyboard that created new special shortcut keys that instantly wrote entire blocks of perfect code in a single keystroke. Really... my reply would be wtf kinda question is that? Actually when I've had this question posed to me, in written form, they hand you the operators. The first time I saw something like this I was very close to saying "I don't know Assembly" and leaving it at that but then it hit me that this is just a logic puzzle to see if you can, given a limited set of operators, figure out how to perform the given function. For example, they might say that you need to subtract A from B only you're only allowed to use an addition operation. And yes, it's more of a "can you program in anything, including a language we just made up" than a "this has something to do with Java" type question

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-18 17:51 • by Anonymous1
 RR: Your friends are young and stupid and naive... They WILL look back at this time and think "Man I was stupid to work all those hours" Guarenteed. "10 hours every Saturday.... and they weren't even PAYING me for those hours... Holy crap I wish someone had slapped some sense into me back then" Oh I agree. I used to put in tons of hours when I was a noob. Part of it was because my boss automatically equated lots of hours with doing a good job. That meant a bigger paycheck (and I was rewarded well). But now, I've done my time and I don't come in on the weekends unless something's on fire and I'm the only one who can put it out.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-18 17:56 • by SomeCoder (unregistered)
 Anonymous1: RR: Your friends are young and stupid and naive... They WILL look back at this time and think "Man I was stupid to work all those hours" Guarenteed. "10 hours every Saturday.... and they weren't even PAYING me for those hours... Holy crap I wish someone had slapped some sense into me back then" Oh I agree. I used to put in tons of hours when I was a noob. Part of it was because my boss automatically equated lots of hours with doing a good job. That meant a bigger paycheck (and I was rewarded well). But now, I've done my time and I don't come in on the weekends unless something's on fire and I'm the only one who can put it out. Agreed. I don't want a job that requires 60 hour weeks. If I have to put in a couple of 60 hour weeks in a row because we're releasing or something is on fire, fine, I'll do it and I'll be ok with it. If I have to put in 60 hour weeks, 52 weeks a year, I'm off looking for another job. I enjoy my work, I really do. But I still don't live to work - I work to live. If I was independently wealthy, I'd probably still program (but it would be specific things that interest me) but I wouldn't work 60 hour weeks.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-18 17:58 • by Lafcadio (unregistered)
 vman: Lafcadio:You must not actually be from Madison; that company has a very, very poor reputation in the development community here as a "hire 'em cheap and burn 'em out" sweatshop. I know a lot of people who used to work there, and every single one of them hated it. Oh, I live (and work) in Madison. Have a friend that last I heard still worked there (last time I heard was a while ago, but he'd been there for 8 years at that point. He *did* say that a lot of the people that worked there stayed long hours, but that he just chose not to. Didn't seem to affect his bonuses or anything. He liked it just fine. I have some other friends that work there, and seem to think it's ok. I dunno. Maybe different word of mouth? Probably. I guess all I can say for sure is that this is the first time in seventeen years that I've ever heard that anyone has anything positive to say about working there. Whenever the subject has come up, both at work and with friends (and their friends, and their friends), response has been universally negative. Oh well...different things for different people, I suppose.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-18 18:00 • by SomeCoder (unregistered)

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-18 18:03 • by Polish programmer (unregistered)
 Me be sorry for Polish programmer, me be better... No, really there are many people who misunderstands therms of understand how to develop an application and how to "do homesites". Im very sorry about that fellow becouse Im Polish programmer too (as for the cliche i thought all PHP programmers looks like you described :-P). Anyway if foreign programmer is so good, ask yourself a question, why didnt he stayed at home? There is always a good pay for a good job. The other thing is staffing agencies are total misunderstanding. Last time I went to one of those the interview ended in about 15 minutes. They didnt know anything about the job and couldnt examine my skills as well. I just said pretty much what was in my CV, and got home earlier (Ill promised myself not to do this mistake again). Best regards Polish programmer

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-18 18:23 • by Jimbo (unregistered)
 I am a developer at Epic, so I believe I can fill everyone in with more accurate information than what has been posted thus far. Note that I'm not saying Epic is the perfect place for everyone to work. Each person can make their own choice as to why they would or would not want to work there. I enjoy the job, but I can certainly understand why others may not. 1. 60 hours per week including Saturdays: This is a very common misconception that is being spread. In fact, we just learned (at a recent Staff Meeting) that the average developer works approximately 44 hours per week. The only times I have been expected to work more hours is close to a deadline, which is usually 3-4 times per year. 2. Epic's Software doesn't scale: We have installs that range from the single provider clinic to Kaiser Permanente (approx 9 million patients http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_Permanente). I think that speaks for itself. 3. Travel time cannot be logged: This is just wrong. Travel time cannot OVERLAP work time. So, if you work for 1 hour on a development project while traveling a total of 8 hours, you log you time as follows: 1 hour development, 7 hours travel. You cannot log more than 24 hours in a day just because you are doing two things at once. 4. Reputation of a sweat shop around Madison: From what I have gathered from many people in and around Madison, this is certainly NOT the overall vibe. In fact, just the opposite. Epic seems to be a very coveted place to work. 5. If Epic is such a great company, why hire so many college grads: We have been growing at a rate of 30%/year for the last 10 years, and college graduates comprise of the largest pool of job seekers. If you do the simple math, this means a lot of college grads are hired. 6. Turnover is high: Actually, the statistics show that we have one of the lowest turnover rates in our industry. On my team (of 12), the average tenure is about 7 years. 7. The campus isn't finished: Part 1 of the campus is finished, and 1800 employees are there (almost all with individual offices). Part 2 is currently under construction. 8. Not challenging: This is completely up to the individual, but I found that after the first few starter projects, the complexity quickly rose to a level that has kept me challenged on a daily basis.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-18 18:43 • by Schnapple (unregistered)
 SomeCoder:Agreed. I don't want a job that requires 60 hour weeks. If I have to put in a couple of 60 hour weeks in a row because we're releasing or something is on fire, fine, I'll do it and I'll be ok with it. If I have to put in 60 hour weeks, 52 weeks a year, I'm off looking for another job. A local recruiter called me up and pitched me a gig with a company that sounded fun (that's another thing - every job is pitched to you as a "fun place to work". Every single one) until it came out that they required a 50-hour work week. Thanks but no thanks, all other things being equal, I'll take the job that only requires 40 hours per week. But they weren't done yet - you got paid in some sort of sliding scale overtime sort of deal. So like, if your salary was \$X that was what you got paid for your typical 40-hour work week. Divide the salary by the number of weeks/hours in a year and that was the amount per-hour you'd be paid for those extra 10 hours a week. So... why not just pay me 125% of \$X? As in, if the job paid \$10,000 a year for a 40-hour week (an unrealistic but simple number) why not just say "oh the job pays \$12,500 per year but you have to work 50 hours a week". Why in the hell are you making me do the math on this one? Is it because the 50-hour-a-week thing is such a turnoff for everyone that you're trying to make it sound like I get a bonus for it? Or are you trying to trick me into thinking I'll get paid more than I will? I think they were targeting the desperate-to-get-a-job types. That or they were just handed a shitty job to pitch. Like the one local firm I kept getting pitched that had a suit-and-tie policy. Sorry, all other things being equal I'm taking the job that lets me wear something normal to work.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-18 18:50 • by Anonymous (so the Eskimos can't get me) (unregistered)
 Truther: Galelasa:The conversation then went something along these lines: Him: "Don't you think its interesting that not one Jew was killed in 911?" Me: "Uh....What? You don't think any jewish people died on 911?" Him: "Not a one! It was all a US/Isreali plot to make Muslims look bad." Me: "Um...really?" (as I start looking for an exit) Him: "Of course! Don't you know the US does whatever the Jews tell them to!? At this point, I managed to excuse myself and fled forever. On a side note, I took a job with a BI firm and haven't touched Java since... ;-) While I agree it's dumb to talk about this during an interview, this is pretty much the truth to anyone who doesn't buy into the biases American media. No eskimos died in 9/11 either, so perhaps they're in on it with the Israelis?

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-18 21:04 • by joe eskimo (unregistered)
 Anonymous (so the Eskimos can't get me): No eskimos died in 9/11 either, so perhaps they're in on it with the Israelis? Dammit! With all this snow and the major misdirection we've been pulling with global warming we almost had our igloos to the border completely unnoticed!

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-18 22:09 • by Unanimous Cowherd (unregistered)
 You have no idea how much fun it is to maintain that code (granted, I'm a VA programmer, but I don't maintain THAT code: That code is not maintainable by mere mortals: the FileMan team (cue Superman fanfare) maintains ^%DTC). For everyone's enlightenment, the code you're looking at there deals with generating "FileMan format" date/time values. You see the code. The code is obfuscated by its very nature (single letter keywords, anyone?) Then, you get to remember other tasty little tidbits like there is no such thing as enforced variable scope. That's right, friends. Unless a specific variable is "N"EW'ed (in which case it is in scope until it hits the next "Q"UIT), that variable is visible across the entire process space. Then you get to enjoy the fact that the "E"LSE keyword is, by both design and specification, completely borked. Instead of having an "I"F work the same way it does in any other language under the sun, a Mumps "I"F only sets a special system variable. Now, remembering point 1 above, does anyone in the class have any idea what happens if you hit a second "I"F inside the true case of the first "I"F? You, there, in the back.. Yep, you're absolutely right. If the second "I"F evaluates to false, BOTH the true and the false case of the original "I"F get executed. The thing that amuses me is the comment about a limited operator set in Mumps. That is the one shortcoming the language DOESN'T have. No. I'm not bitter. Nor angry. Now, where's my Glenlivet??

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-18 22:12 • by Anonymous (unregistered)
 Jimbo:I am a developer at Epic, so I believe I can fill everyone in with more accurate information than what has been posted thus far. 2. Epic's Software doesn't scale: We have installs that range from the single provider clinic to Kaiser Permanente (approx 9 million patients http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_Permanente). I think that speaks for itself. Yeah, Kaiser's an example you want to be throwing around: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9005004 (Not trying to trash your software, because honestly this is probably a Citrix problem, but find a different example, will ya?)

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-18 22:38 • by Edward Royce (unregistered)
 alexgieg: No, seriously. You English speakers have an absolutely horrible, completely unintuitive spelling system. Very true. I learned English by spending hours repeating what I heard on radio stations, to get the proper pronunciation. I also spent hours reading dictionaries and memorizing words rather than depending on any specific set of rules. Frankly that seemed to work better and faster.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-19 00:59 • by captain obvious (unregistered)
 Bob: J:We recently had a low-level position open up - XHTML/CSS/MOSS with maybe a little Javascript. This is the real WTF. Low-level == assembly. shut up... first, enough of this "real wtf" or "trwtf" crap, second, when referring to job positions, it is a management definition of low level so there is nothing wrong

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-19 01:33 • by filthyPierre (unregistered)
 Being the lucky fella that I am, I had mumps twice as a kid. Once when I was about 5 and I don't remember a thing about it. Second time I was 14 and it racked me up for 2 weeks off school in bed, and I missed the big dance and my chance to be with Michelle what's-her-name that I'd invited as my date :-( I've never programmed in MUMPS but looking at those examples and people's comments it seems to me that mumps the disease and MUMPS the language are very much the same - a major pain in the nuts. :-)

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-19 02:02 • by ex epic (unregistered)
 Jimbo:I am a developer at Epic, so I believe I can fill everyone in with more accurate information than what has been posted thus far. Note that I'm not saying Epic is the perfect place for everyone to work. Each person can make their own choice as to why they would or would not want to work there. I enjoy the job, but I can certainly understand why others may not. 3. Travel time cannot be logged: This is just wrong. Travel time cannot OVERLAP work time. So, if you work for 1 hour on a development project while traveling a total of 8 hours, you log you time as follows: 1 hour development, 7 hours travel. You cannot log more than 24 hours in a day just because you are doing two things at once. 7. The campus isn't finished: Part 1 of the campus is finished, and 1800 employees are there (almost all with individual offices). Part 2 is currently under construction. 3 - Maybe this has changed, but when I worked there (2003) I was explicitly told travel time was not considered work time and while it could be logged it didn't count toward my 45 hour week. I was supposed to make up the time spent travelling with actual working time. 7 - I was given a tour of the campus by an employee I have remained friends with. It is very impressive.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-19 05:35 • by 28% Genius (unregistered)
 shadowman: 7 S %=%H>21608+%H-.1,%Y=%\365.25+141,%=%#365.25\1 S %D=%+306#(%Y#4=0+365)#153#61#31+1,%M=%-%D\29+1 S X=%Y_"00"+%M_"00"+%D Q ; [/code] And it goes on like that. Must be fun for maintenance. I like the 365 and a quarter day years. A leap year algorithm is probably too hard in MUMPS.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-19 09:51 • by KenW
 Ozymandias:Given that some versions of MUMPS (typically the older strains) are interpreted, and this history is a massive determinant in the design of the language, but that newer MUMPS is compiled, it's not a real simple question to answer. It's a simple question to answer. Since presumably you're only using one version (an "older strain" or a "newer MUMPS"), you only have to know about one version. If you're not technical enough to know basic information about something on which you base your livelihood, you're in the wrong line of work.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-19 09:53 • by poochner
 Just as an aside, if you just don't like wearing a suit, that's one thing. If you're uncomfortable, then try getting one that fits properly. Especially with shirt collars, that can be a problem. Honestly, it did wonders for my comfort during interviews when I went up a collar size, and anything that helps you think about the interview instead of being choked is good.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-19 10:43 • by Someone You Know
 S: KG:I hate work - always have and always will. And this is why you will be a miserable person and a failure in life. This quote either demonstrates how you are not in a field you like, or you have zero work ethic. As a wise man once said, progress isn't made by people waking up early; it's made by lazy people trying to find easier ways to do things. If everyone loved work as much as you do, nothing would ever get faster or easier to use.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-19 11:43 • by Physics Phil
 Myrmidon: alexgieg: absurddoctor:It is not that uncommon for someone to be able to write in a second language very well, but not be able to speak it well, and vice versa. My case exactly. I read and write English fluently, but I have a hard time with speaking and listening to it. Not because I cannot "construct" or "decode" the sentences in my head in real time, in fact I don't think in my native language (Portuguese) anymore when either writing or reading English anymore. But simply because spoken English is an ENTIRELY different language. No, seriously. You English speakers have an absolutely horrible, completely unintuitive spelling system. 60% of the time I'm absolutely sure a certain word is pronounced in such a way, but alas, no, the actual pronounce has no resemblance whatsoever to the way it's written. It's maddening. Well, stop and realize where 'Merkin' English comes from. We 'borrowed' - in other words we stole (usually at gun point) - from half a dozen or more base languages (that we couldn't speak correctly to begin with). Even British English is pretty mixed, with strong influences from Romance, Germanic, and Scandinavian languages, as well as plenty of words from Indian languages, Arabic, and pretty well everywhere else.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-19 13:29 • by t-bone
 Someone You Know: S: KG:I hate work - always have and always will. And this is why you will be a miserable person and a failure in life. This quote either demonstrates how you are not in a field you like, or you have zero work ethic. As a wise man once said, progress isn't made by people waking up early; it's made by lazy people trying to find easier ways to do things. If everyone loved work as much as you do, nothing would ever get faster or easier to use. """ Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. Robert Heinlein, Time Enough For Love US science fiction author (1907 - 1988) """

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-19 13:40 • by Someone You Know
 t-bone: Someone You Know: S: KG:I hate work - always have and always will. And this is why you will be a miserable person and a failure in life. This quote either demonstrates how you are not in a field you like, or you have zero work ethic. As a wise man once said, progress isn't made by people waking up early; it's made by lazy people trying to find easier ways to do things. If everyone loved work as much as you do, nothing would ever get faster or easier to use. """ Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. Robert Heinlein, Time Enough For Love US science fiction author (1907 - 1988) """ Thank you. It is a measure of my own laziness that the book is sitting here on my desk, within arm's reach, and yet I didn't bother flipping through it to find the exact wording.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-19 14:32 • by KG (unregistered)
 [quote user="t-bone """ Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. Robert Heinlein, Time Enough For Love US science fiction author (1907 - 1988) """ [/quote] Now this is an encouraging quote. Thank you. :)

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-19 19:59 • by real_aardvark
 Unanimous Cowherd:You have no idea how much fun it is to maintain that code No. I'm not bitter. Nor angry. Now, where's my Glenlivet?? Someone whose sense of taste has truly been wrecked by an appalling job. May I recommend Laphroaig, or at the very least, Bunnabhain? Glenlivet, yuck. Leave it to the PRC plutocrats. With sparkly lemonade.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-19 20:52 • by Unanimous Cowherd (unregistered)
 Hmmm.. I may have to do some searching. The stores around here are decidedly light on single malts. Glenmorghanie, Glenlivet, and that's about it. I'll make a note, sir. Thanks for the suggestions!

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-20 03:01 • by mynhh (unregistered)
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### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2008-03-20 06:38 • by TakeASeatOverThere
 That's typical of Polish people finding a job abroad to be sneaky cheating dolts. They think noone will notice their lack of competence just because other Poles can't notice it. I know because I am Polish.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2009-04-03 08:14 • by Daniel Smedegaard Buus (unregistered)
 shadowman:I'm digging Wikipedia's entry on MUMPS, which includes an example of "traditional" M coding style, from the Fileman system written for the US Government Veterans' Administration: ```%DTC %DTC ; SF/XAK - DATE/TIME OPERATIONS ;1/16/92 11:36 AM ;;19.0;VA FileMan;;Jul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``` And it goes on like that. Must be fun for maintenance. What's the matter? Can't program in encrypted byte code? Pfff! Pussy.

### flv converter

2009-07-22 16:01 • by flv converter (unregistered)

### ��ҵ��ͷ

2009-07-23 09:36 • by ��ҵ��ͷ (unregistered)
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### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2009-10-13 05:48 • by nfl jerseys (unregistered)

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2010-04-15 18:48 • by Michael (unregistered)
 Yes, please do not take another step into the MUMPS world. It's great to have this world ALL to ourselves. Even though just about EVERY healthcare system uses it and will NEVER convert (hospitals, clinics, & your health insurance information too). Not too mention the government and financial applications are written in M (as we refer to it). The job security is GREAT! ps. If you guys get a chance, go to www.intersystems.com. MUMPS on steriods. Intersystems has upgraded M. The call it Cache ObjectScript. It' true Object Oriented Programming and can run alongside legacy M.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2010-05-02 12:39 • by Kirby L. Wallace (unregistered)
 It's like coding in regular expressions.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2010-10-25 14:22 • by Charles Boyung (unregistered)
 Jimbo: 6. Turnover is high: Actually, the statistics show that we have one of the lowest turnover rates in our industry. On my team (of 12), the average tenure is about 7 years. You are forgetting a key point of Epic's management. People that quit that they "don't want to keep anyways" aren't considered turnover for those discussions. And oh, it just so happens that anyone that quits after 2 years or less are automatically considered people they "don't want to keep anyways". My wife worked there for a year and hated it. She saw half her team quit and get replaced with new college grads in that time.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2012-09-26 12:42 • by Mike (unregistered)
 Well it IS called code after all :)

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2013-05-02 22:49 • by Valerie (unregistered)
 MUMPs is fun to program in. It ruins you for old fashioned languages like C and Java. I have been programming in MUMPS since 1981. Valerie

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2014-05-16 12:11 • by Sconnie (unregistered)
 I used to work at the company in Wisconsin that used MUMPS and it was pretty awful for maintenance. Especially given the fact that the phrase "scope" doesn't really exist.

### Re: Avoiding MUMPS & Arcadius

2014-09-02 09:27 • by Deliberately misunderstanding is fun (unregistered)