Comment On Best of 2006: The Customer-Friendly System

sounds like a typical user can do all system.  too bad its like most user can do all systems where simplicity is not available.

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This makes me feel much better about the "ERP" system that I have been updating that involves Access front end, SQL Server 2000, and about 50 users.  All initially programmed (in the loosest sense of the word) by someone who now claims 12 years of experience working on these types of systems.

This is the exact same concept as the Metastorm eWork product, which is used by at least a couple large law firms.  (One of which I'm about to leave.)  And the exact same false claims about end-users designing their own workflows.  Only these visio diagrams are SO much clearer.  Neither the people who design and sell these things, nor the people who buy them, have any comprehension of the complexity of a real-world business workflow.

Before coming to this site I didn't even know that you could use Visio diagrams in a manner such as this abomination.

I have to admit that it must have taken some serious ingenuity, though -- even if you asked me to think up the most idiotic and ill-designed system, I probably wouldn't have considered using Visio diagrams.

the trouble is that this probably really does represent what the workflow looks like at that business.  If you have a simple workflow, any of these tools *can be* great.  Unfortunately, 1) the tool is abused anyhow, resulting in a mess, and 2) the workflow of the business isn't clearly defined at all, so the diagram inevitably becomes a holiday-light-tangle of nodes, etc.

All initially programmed (in the loosest sense of the word) by someone
who now claims 12 years of experience working on these types of
systems.

If this person "now claims" 12 years of experience, does that mean they started working on the system 12 years ago? 

I think I see the WTF. . . They're using Javascript to filter out specific content.

I'm probably stating the obvious, but it looks like an automatically generated diagram in Visio.

Saladin:

Before coming to this site I didn't even know that you could use Visio diagrams in a manner such as this abomination.

I have to admit that it must have taken some serious ingenuity, though -- even if you asked me to think up the most idiotic and ill-designed system, I probably wouldn't have considered using Visio diagrams.

That's why the consultants get the big buckazoids. They think outside the box. 

Mind you, that box is clearly marked: "sanity" and encompasses most of the known universe.

This WTF gives me the giggles every time I think about it. Thanks for including it in the list as the penultimate WTF of the year. 

When will people/companies learn that they need to simplify the underlying processes and archaic ways of doing business instead of creating masks to hide it? Fellow programmers and technology evangelists... I think we've created monsters!

sir_flexalot:

the trouble is that this probably really does represent what the workflow looks like at that business.  If you have a simple workflow, any of these tools *can be* great.  Unfortunately, 1) the tool is abused anyhow, resulting in a mess, and 2) the workflow of the business isn't clearly defined at all, so the diagram inevitably becomes a holiday-light-tangle of nodes, etc.

And if there were a decent business analyst and an IT manager with any balls, they'd have told the business that it's not possible to automate a process that isn't clearly defined.

Every major project I've worked on, along the way we found problems with the existing process.  You get the interested parties together, decide what you want the process to be, and write that.

Saladin:

Before coming to this site I didn't even know that you could use Visio diagrams in a manner such as this abomination.

I have to admit that it must have taken some serious ingenuity, though -- even if you asked me to think up the most idiotic and ill-designed system, I probably wouldn't have considered using Visio diagrams.

 

I agree with you. If this actually worked as designed, I congratulate the developers. But, shame on the consulting firm who perpetuates this crap and allows their customers to think this is ok. 

What is Iowa specific text?  Do they have a different dialect?  Should the program analyze the text and determine that is from Iowa and block it?  I have met some Iowans.  That does seem appropriate.

Anonymous:

What is Iowa specific text?  Do they have a different dialect?  Should the program analyze the text and determine that is from Iowa and block it?  I have met some Iowans.  That does seem appropriate.

In the industry I work in, there are different legal disclosures/disclaimers needed depending on the state the customer lives in.  It's probably something like that.

Iowa

That says it all !

ParkinT:

Iowa

That says it all !

MyztikJenz:

ParkinT:

Iowa

That says it all !

Indeed it does.

*currently lives in Iowa, looking for the escape hatch*

I-80
...pick a direction and drive.

if you stare at the bottom right visio diagram you can find the paula bean being called in there. Not really sure why this is supposed to be an integral part of the system. I think theres some NO Quacks in there too. However, the wooden table is missing :( I think they will add that in version 2.0 though.

 

captcha: random

You know, it took since August to get rid of the painful spasms of seeing that diagram. Now you had to bring it back? I will haunt your grandchildren for this abomination!

Right. I believe the issue here is that all the content is displayed in Javascript which is a programming language, of sorts. You can't use an HTML parser to filter anything unless it is in HTML form. You would have to write a Javascript function to filter out the content. Or you would have to first parse all the data into HTML, filter it, and then put it back into Javascript. Good luck with.

If my belief is correct, then management would have to hire a javascript programmer to create a function, which they know costs money. So they mistakenly believe they can get anyone with HTML knowledge to this. Or better yet, since HTML is so easy to learn, the office secretary can do it in about 10 minutes. They may not even understand that what they are looking at is Javascript and mistakenly believe that anything on the internet is HTML. Welcome to the business world.
 

Anonymous:

Right. I believe the issue here is that all the content is displayed in Javascript which is a programming language, of sorts.

"Of sorts"?

 Oh joy, just what we need, another nose-in-the-air he-man ivory-tower god's gift to programmers. Wheeee.
 

ParkinT:

Iowa

That says it all !

 It could be worse... you could live in Utah.... :(

*cries himself to sleep*

noehch:

MyztikJenz:

ParkinT:

Iowa

That says it all !

Indeed it does.

*currently lives in Iowa, looking for the escape hatch*

I-80
...pick a direction and drive.

Drive long enough and you'll end up in downtown San Francisco. You couldn't possibly get any further from good ol' Iowa. :p

Anonymous:

Every major project I've worked on, along the way we found problems with the existing process.  You get the interested parties together, decide what you want the process to be, and write that.

I wish the whole world worked that way.  Most of the time, everybody claims that either:

a) the process is fine as is, or
b) it will be far more expensive, painful, time consuming, etc, to change the process, compared to writing the code to work around it.

Of course, what happens after this is that the program takes three times as long to develop as anyone claimed, costs ten times as much, and results in ten people sitting in a weekly meeting for the next five years to discuss it.
 

Zylon:

Anonymous:

Right. I believe the issue here is that all the content is displayed in Javascript which is a programming language, of sorts.

"Of sorts"?

 Oh joy, just what we need, another nose-in-the-air he-man ivory-tower god's gift to programmers. Wheeee.
 

I think the language is just a tool. You use the right one for the job. You don't see carpenters having arguments over whether a finishing saw or a ball-peen hammer is a better tool. 

Let's just keep this discussion away from the WTF at any costs. 

jkupski:

Drew K:

Every major project I've worked on, along the way we found problems with the existing process.  You get the interested parties together, decide what you want the process to be, and write that.

I wish the whole world worked that way.

I'd be happy if my little corner worked that way.  That's the great thing about offering suggestions on the web: they don't actually have to work, they just have to sound good.

Actually, even though they never did fix the process, it was worth it to get the CFO, president, two vice-presidents and five division heads in a meeting, describe "exactly how things work" based on what each of them had told me separately, then watch them take turns saying, "That's not how we do it." Yes it is. "It can't be, that won't work." But that's how we do it. "It is?" Yup. "Well, shit."

foxyshadis:

noehch:

MyztikJenz:

ParkinT:

Iowa

That says it all !

Indeed it does.

*currently lives in Iowa, looking for the escape hatch*

I-80
...pick a direction and drive.

Drive long enough and you'll end up in downtown San Francisco. You couldn't possibly get any further from good ol' Iowa. :p

okay...
you say "West"...
Anyone for "East"??

Personally, I'd go South-East...I'll deal with the weather once I get to Florida.

If you think Utah is bad, there are 4 direction to start driving and I'd prefer you start now!

Anonymous:

If you think Utah is bad, there are 4 direction to start driving and I'd prefer you start now!

 I'll start driving in any of the 4 direction[sic] as soon as you hand me tons of free cash.

After my second read of this post (yes, I read it again even though I remembered it well) left me thinking that it wasn't that bad.  Granted, it's not something that can be maintained by just anyone (and therefore, I suppose failed to meet it's requirement), but no diagram could even be generated for the behemoth I and 10 other monkeys maintain.  If one could be generated it would surely give healthy people heart attacks.

I'd have to see just how difficult it would've been to maintain the system as originally intended in order to judge, but my initial reaction is that the wtf is that it's being maintained through bubblegum subsystems stuck onto it rather than modifying the diagrams.

Anonymous:

Anonymous:

If you think Utah is bad, there are 4 direction to start driving and I'd prefer you start now!

 I'll start driving in any of the 4 direction[sic] as soon as you hand me tons of free cash.

 

http://www.fusioncash.net/ ... now get going!

Anonymous:

After my second read of this post (yes, I read it again even though I remembered it well) left me thinking that it wasn't that bad.  Granted, it's not something that can be maintained by just anyone (and therefore, I suppose failed to meet it's requirement), but no diagram could even be generated for the behemoth I and 10 other monkeys maintain.  If one could be generated it would surely give healthy people heart attacks.

I'd have to see just how difficult it would've been to maintain the system as originally intended in order to judge, but my initial reaction is that the wtf is that it's being maintained through bubblegum subsystems stuck onto it rather than modifying the diagrams.

I agree. It's evolutionary creep. A project, originally intended to be short-lived, has somehow survived, and new features have been *bubble-gummed* on to it. I suspect it's not uncommon.

Anonymous:

Anonymous:

Every major project I've worked on, along the way we found problems with the existing process.  You get the interested parties together, decide what you want the process to be, and write that.

I wish the whole world worked that way.  Most of the time, everybody claims that either:

a) the process is fine as is, or

b) it will be far more expensive, painful, time consuming, etc, to change the process, compared to writing the code to work around it.

Of course, what happens after this is that the program takes three times as long to develop as anyone claimed, costs ten times as much, and results in ten people sitting in a weekly meeting for the next five years to discuss it.

c) One of the principal creators of the existing process still works there and perceives you as the enemy for insulting his baby.

Portional Sence:

I agree. It's evolutionary creep. A project, originally intended to be short-lived, has somehow survived, and new features have been *bubble-gummed* on to it. I suspect it's not uncommon.

My boss calls that the decorator crab pattern. We've experienced it on many systems.

At least they (try to) use workflows, not al of use are that lucky

Even if it was auto-generated it's a WTF. In second screenshot you can see 2 funcs:

CertificateLocaleStateCodeIsIn('OH'), BrokerCertifiedForOhio

Same for other states - so they've got unified funtion for checking cert. state, but not for checking broker? ~50 nice functions of "if(state==".." and certifiedFor=="..")" :D

Since it's the week of reflection....

 My eyes!!! The goggles do nothing!

and 

Brillant!

Cool, Where can I get me one of them ?

Anonymous:

If this person "now claims" 12 years of experience, does that mean they started working on the system 12 years ago? 

Oy.  I am going to have nightmares.   Graphical, pointy-clicky programming interface?  Flow-chart as programming language?  *shudder*  I'm going back to my mips assembly and Linux kernel modules.  Not to mention raw hex.

Oh, and as far as getting on I-80 goes, if you head south on I-280 once you hit San Francisco, you'll get to Silicon Valley.  The economy has been picking up around here the past couple years, so while the cost of living will make you gag, there are, in fact, jobs to be had.  So, while _I_ can't offer you a pile of cash, you might find someone here who could.  Not that it would make it past your rent payment...

Jeff

Captcha: pacman, well, I wasn't getting anything done today, anyway... Now where did that port to Excel go?

***FOR THE RECORD THE SYSTEM WAS NOT AUTO-GENERATED IN ANY WAY***

 

Developers had to read the diagrams and move blocks around in a mess of arrows (as well as checking where each arrow went).  It was nearly impossible to just pick a module up and understand what was what.
 

Aaaaaah!!!! The diagram is sucking me in!!!

When I read the original one back in August, this was something I had never seen. Since then, I moved to a bigger city, bigger company and am now outsourced in a *major* financial business.

And I can say that this now looks like the network map. Yipes!!!

Ah, my job's fun anyway, taking in mind that getting 404 errors now actually means I did my job *right* ...

<shudder>  

So was this created using the original version of Biztalk?

webzter:

Portional Sence:

I agree. It's evolutionary creep. A project, originally intended to be short-lived, has somehow survived, and new features have been *bubble-gummed* on to it. I suspect it's not uncommon.

My boss calls that the decorator crab pattern. We've experienced it on many systems.

LOL. Well put. Ten bucks says: there's an army of observer crabs to defend it.

"Oy.  I am going to have nightmares.   Graphical, pointy-clicky programming interface?  Flow-chart as programming language?  *shudder*  I'm going back to my mips assembly and Linux kernel modules.  Not to mention raw hex."

Actually, graphical programming is not so bad. I'm programming in LabVIEW, which is a graphical development environment (with data-flow as the programming model), and it has a lot of advantages (and disadvantages) over text-based programming.

One of the advantages is that a lot of stuff is done automatically by the compiler - it's good because it allows you to program much faster and because it allows people with little experience to write working programs.

It's bad because it takes away some control and because it allows people with little experience to write working programs.
If these people are only writing a simple program, that's reasonable, but if these people need to write a larger program, well - you can see the results here and here. This gives real meaning to the term "Spaghetti Code" and "WTF".

Note two things -

• The navigation window, which shows you an overview of what you are seeing compared to the entire code. These examples are equivalent to creating one huge Main() function.
• The icons with numbers on them - those are user-written functions and are equivalent to calling functions in text-based languages "Function1", "Function2", etc.
  A good LabVIEW programmer would create descriptive icons for functions and of course modularize the system so that you have a lot more functions and a lot less code per function.

Just to emphasize once again, these are examples of bad code. Good LabVIEW code will be structured, organized, commented and easier to read.

It seems that you have to be logged in to that site to see the images.

Here and here are working links.

By the way, this is not some system simply hacked together. LabVIEW has been around for 20 years and what you're seeing is the only source code - this is compiled directly to machine code. It's not based on XML or Visio or anything like that and it is purely graphical.

Hmmm -- my company is using something put out by PegaSystems that's supposed to do this.  Draw the Visio diagram, produce a system.  Uh-huh.

PegaSystems was the Bane of my existance!  You could dedicate an entire website to PegaSystems WTF's

The best part of this story is that happy face

Imagine it sloshing towards you, 15 stories high, its innards composed entirely of these grotesque diagrams

Smile warping perversely

It will consume you

 

 
well, nightmares again tonight
 

...the consultants wanted to design it so that "even the
most technically unskilled end-user could easily add and modify"
...

Over 25 years ago there was a program called "The Last One" (because it was
the last program you would ever have to buy <G>). It ran on the TRS-80 Model I and
was written in old Microsoft Basic. It wrote database programs
IN old Microsoft Basic. Unfortunately you had to be a programmer to
get it to do anything useful. It was insanely expensive and rapidly
vanished.

There's nothing new under the sun.