Comment On Classic WTF: Lacking Knowledge Essentials

FRIST FROM HOLLAND :D

Yeah, I know this kind of jobs, where you just hope to get away with whatever you're trying to pull off.

Client appointment for a new instalation of CRM-X, getting the installables from the developer after some 'last minute tweaks' with only a vague promise that it'll work and no time to test, driving 2,5 hours to the client site, testing it on an appointed machine and seeing it fall to bits, manager ordering to 'continue or the customer will drop us for not delivering on time', then having to ask all 30-some managers and sales reps to stop working on their PCs so I can do a manual install, knowing that the shit I'm planiting is worse than the shit tey're currently running...

God, I'm glad I don't work there anymore...

A new job, well, that's not so bad of a thing; it'd be an honest job. A job where he wasn't forced (err, bribed) to trick clients into thinking they bought a real system. No more lies, no more deception, and most importantly, no more guilt trips.

Really? Jobs such as these exist?

Most of the stories can be summed up in:

Programmer is stupid
Manager is stupid
Sales Department is stupid

But, sometimes you find out that idiots that make stupid promises run the world. Look at like 99% of the politicians.

rewind:

Most of the stories can be summed up in:

Programmer is stupid
Manager is stupid
Sales Department is stupid

But, sometimes you find out that idiots that make stupid promises run the world. Look at like 99% of the politicians.

Missing a few 9s there. Or just go ahead and say 100%, if there actually are any other types of politicians out there, you can say it's a rounding error.

the "bad guys"

Sales and marketing?

Seriously, though, it seems to be a common enough problem, just not usually to that degree. I know the group I work with has had new and interesting requirements dropped on us from time to time because one of the salesweenies promised a client the moon without checking in first. Given the contractual risk this usually entails, I'd think this ought to constitute a pretty serious misstep, but it only seems to be a problem when the gambit fails (and, then, you have to wait for the fallout of the resulting blamestorm to sort out consequences).

ARGHHHHHHHHHH WHY I DO ALWAYS MISS BEING FIRST!!

I got it yesterday but it got deleted. Presumably owing to bad sportsmanship.

Captcha: EROS (Nice!)

Why work on a new special project when you could just bring back MFD?

Wow. I am stunned.

Leo:

rewind:

But, sometimes you find out that idiots that make stupid promises run the world. Look at like 99% of the politicians.

Missing a few 9s there. Or just go ahead and say 100%, if there actually are any other types of politicians out there, you can say it's a rounding error.

Well, there are other politicians that don't make stupid promises. They just don't get elected. Ever.

I've seen the Sales guys do it first hand. I was in a customer meeting once with a couple sales guys, and the customer asked:

Customer: "Does your product do <A B C>?"
Sales guy: "It definitely does."
Me: "Actually, that's conceptually very different from anything the product does."
Sales guy: "Oh yeah, I forgot there was a developer in the room."

Meh. Par for the course.

frits:

Meh. Par for the course.

Oh Yeah? Think that you can do better? Go ahead and tell Alex!

Oooooooooooo... Schedule Chicken ... and Dave's the WINNER!

Mark Bowytz:

frits:

Meh. Par for the course.

Oh Yeah? Think that you can do better? Go ahead and tell Alex!

If something entertaining enough to retell happens I *might* submit it. Until then, I'm going to go ahead and not do that.

captcha: jugis hehe

Last thursday I ran into some code at work.
I thought of submitting it, only to see the Daily WTF of that day was very, very similar to the code I found.

rewind:

Most of the stories can be summed up in:

Programmer is stupid
Manager is stupid
Sales Department is stupid

But, sometimes you find out that idiots that make stupid promises run the world. Look at like 99% of the politicians.

To be fair, pretty much any story that reaches TDWTF can be summed up with "X is stupid", or else it wouldn't be a candidate. Might as well sit in a pub saying "So there's this Scotsman, Englishman and Irishman, right, and the Irishman ends up doing something stupid"

The "bad guys" quote is unfair. Try to rewrite this story from the other side. Pretend that the DWTF entry actually went like this:

Peter was a knowledge engineer at Binnentech. He had been trying to get his bosses to purchase this great new software for months, but they weren't willing to spare the expense. This was a company that couldn't even figure out how to get an entry badge for an overseas visitor in less than two days! Finally the software company came to visit and, through some sleight of hand, they managed to make the bosses and Binnentech buy the same software that they didn't want all this time....

What the hell? Why did my Jabberwocky post get deleted? If you're going to start randomly enforcing constraints on the comments the least you could do is actually write them down in the policy. You know, so you don't discourage people from feeling like they're pissing away their time if they put any effort into their posts.

"Coming soon" doesn't exactly tell me what should and should not be in a comment. If your long-term readers get the impression their comments will be deleted on a whim you can expect a lot more "FRIST" quality posts.

This might be giving the sales person far too much credit, but it is possible that he was simply exploiting a characteristic of Binnentech that he had observed and figured out how to use to his and his company's advantage. A good salesman knows how to work both a weak customer and a spineless engineering manager.

"...help Mark and I tell these stories..."

Me. Help Mark and me tell these stories.

Sheesh.

RogerC:

This might be giving the sales person far too much credit, but it is possible that he was simply exploiting a characteristic of Binnentech that he had observed and figured out how to use to his and his company's advantage. A good salesman knows how to work both a weak customer and a spineless engineering manager.

I think there's a critical difference between "working the system" and flat out lying to a customer and thus putting other people in a position to have to lie. It doesn't matter whether the sales person was fully aware of all the implications of his lie or whether he just knew that his lie would work based on past experience, the end does not justify the means.

Leo:

rewind:

[…] sometimes you find out that idiots that make stupid promises run the world. Look at like 99% of the politicians.

Missing a few 9s there. Or just go ahead and say 100%, if there actually are any other types of politicians out there, you can say it's a rounding error.

Rounding error, but the likes of Bliar and Brown have been trying to “put that right”…

Anonymously Yours:

What the hell? Why did my Jabberwocky post get deleted? If you're going to start randomly enforcing constraints on the comments the least you could do is actually write them down in the policy. You know, so you don't discourage people from feeling like they're pissing away their time if they put any effort into their posts.

"Coming soon" doesn't exactly tell me what should and should not be in a comment. If your long-term readers get the impression their comments will be deleted on a whim you can expect a lot more "FRIST" quality posts.

Anonymously Yours:

What the hell? Why did my Jabberwocky post get deleted? If you're going to start randomly enforcing constraints on the comments the least you could do is actually write them down in the policy. You know, so you don't discourage people from feeling like they're pissing away their time if they put any effort into their posts.

"Coming soon" doesn't exactly tell me what should and should not be in a comment. If your long-term readers get the impression their comments will be deleted on a whim you can expect a lot more "FRIST" quality posts.

Love when people think they're part of a conspiracy.
You know, Internet is not a democracy.
He has all the right of removing any comment he doesn't like for whatever reason from his site, and guess what: he doesn't even have to inform you about it.

And probably your comment just got lost thanks to the marvellous WTF code that manages comments on this site (4th time I try to submit... hope it will work)

This sounds like almost every project I've worked on for the last two companies I've worked for. ;)

nico:

Anonymously Yours:

What the hell? Why did my Jabberwocky post get deleted? If you're going to start randomly enforcing constraints on the comments the least you could do is actually write them down in the policy. You know, so you don't discourage people from feeling like they're pissing away their time if they put any effort into their posts.

"Coming soon" doesn't exactly tell me what should and should not be in a comment. If your long-term readers get the impression their comments will be deleted on a whim you can expect a lot more "FRIST" quality posts.

Love when people think they're part of a conspiracy.

<snip>

And probably your comment just got lost thanks to the marvellous WTF code that manages comments on this site

Noticing my comment was deleted (along with 4 others) about 15 minutes after posting it (and reading it, and getting a response to it) is a far cry from calling conspiracy.

nico:

You know, Internet is not a democracy.
He has all the right of removing any comment he doesn't like for whatever reason from his site, and guess what: he doesn't even have to inform you about it.

This knee jerk reaction shows you have completely misinterpreted the purpose of my comment. It was a reminder about human nature. When you randomly, silently punish people and give them no indication of what behavior is appropriate, you discourage their participation.

The Internet is not a democracy is an idiotic slight to make. You realize you're talking to fellow programmers here, right? Regardless, it is obvious Alex wants public participation, indicated by the existence of a Comments section in the first place, and since the Internet is not a tyranny either he can't force people to participate. That means meeting people halfway by making rules, putting them somewhere they can be read, and enforcing them. Nothing kills your membership faster than random arbitration.

I don't think it's inappropriate to ask that, if I am to be punished, I have some clear guideline to avoid punishment again in the future. Your response is wholly inappropriate and your smug tone is unjustified.

Captcha: Bene - fitting, in a sense, for this comment.

--

Note from Mark: Deleting != Punishment. In general, comments that contribute zero to the conversation get whacked. If you disagree, by all means, REPOST. Common sense rules apply with regards to how a comment's value is judged.

Brillig!

But the real question is: Did he get the 20% bonus and extra week off ??

Back in the dot com heyday, this kind of stuff was pretty common.

When my old company was in a time crunch to get software in the hands of customers, they would sent out unburned CDs instead of the latest software in order to get a few more weeks of development time and bug fixes.

At first I thought this was hugely risky, but I was shocked at how long some companies would take to call support to ask for a new CD. The big angry customers with the most demanding timelines took the LONGEST to request new CDs. Hell, some customers paied for the software and NEVER asked for a new CD!

Disfunctional purchasing departments are the rule, not the exception.

egg:

Why work on a new special project when you could just bring back MFD?

Brillant! You can then call it "MFD II --- The Nightmare Continues"

Mark Bowytz:

frits:

Meh. Par for the course.

Oh Yeah? Think that you can do better? Go ahead and tell Alex!

I tried, and an error was logged....

Anonymously Yours:

What the hell? Why did my Jabberwocky post get deleted? If you're going to start randomly enforcing constraints on the comments the least you could do is actually write them down in the policy. You know, so you don't discourage people from feeling like they're pissing away their time if they put any effort into their posts.

"Coming soon" doesn't exactly tell me what should and should not be in a comment. If your long-term readers get the impression their comments will be deleted on a whim you can expect a lot more "FRIST" quality posts.

'Coming soon' allows each post that was deleted to be added to some hypothetical list of what isn't allowed. This list will be made available when complete. This list will be complete when all possible bad posts have been posted (and therefore added to the list). To speed up production of this list, post all your shonky posts now!

Anonymously Yours:

nico:

Anonymously Yours:

What the hell? Why did my Jabberwocky post get deleted? If you're going to start randomly enforcing constraints on the comments the least you could do is actually write them down in the policy. You know, so you don't discourage people from feeling like they're pissing away their time if they put any effort into their posts.

"Coming soon" doesn't exactly tell me what should and should not be in a comment. If your long-term readers get the impression their comments will be deleted on a whim you can expect a lot more "FRIST" quality posts.

Love when people think they're part of a conspiracy.

<snip>

And probably your comment just got lost thanks to the marvellous WTF code that manages comments on this site

Noticing my comment was deleted (along with 4 others) about 15 minutes after posting it (and reading it, and getting a response to it) is a far cry from calling conspiracy.

nico:

You know, Internet is not a democracy.
He has all the right of removing any comment he doesn't like for whatever reason from his site, and guess what: he doesn't even have to inform you about it.

This knee jerk reaction shows you have completely misinterpreted the purpose of my comment. It was a reminder about human nature. When you randomly, silently punish people and give them no indication of what behavior is appropriate, you discourage their participation.

The Internet is not a democracy is an idiotic slight to make. You realize you're talking to fellow programmers here, right? Regardless, it is obvious Alex wants public participation, indicated by the existence of a Comments section in the first place, and since the Internet is not a tyranny either he can't force people to participate. That means meeting people halfway by making rules, putting them somewhere they can be read, and enforcing them. Nothing kills your membership faster than random arbitration.

I don't think it's inappropriate to ask that, if I am to be punished, I have some clear guideline to avoid punishment again in the future. Your response is wholly inappropriate and your smug tone is unjustified.

Captcha: Bene - fitting, in a sense, for this comment.

Note from Mark: Deleting != Punishment. In general, comments that contribute zero to the conversation get whacked. If you disagree, by all means, REPOST. Common sense rules apply with regards to how a comment's value is judged.

who would've thought people actually go back and check whether their comment is still there 15 minutes after posting....?

Mitchell:

who would've thought people actually go back and check whether their comment is still there 15 minutes after posting....?

I came back to see what other people posted a few times because things were slow this morning at work. After about 15 minutes what I replied to, a related post, my post, and a reply to me were all gone.

Mark:

Note from Mark: Deleting != Punishment. In general, comments that contribute zero to the conversation get whacked. If you disagree, by all means, REPOST. Common sense rules apply with regards to how a comment's value is judged.

My complaint was there's no posted rules and (until I complained) I had no idea why my post was deleted. While I agree my post was off-topic, I have trouble believing my post contributed less than the two posts regarding being first that were posted before mine and remain up even now.

Often, the response to a WTF is "how can these morons stay in business?"

The answer, as usual is quite simple: "what? you think the customers are any smarter or more competent? please excuse me while I go laugh my ass off in the corner."

I think this is why we're all so depressed - we can see how much better off our customers would be if they were smart enough to pick a competent supplier, but our bosses don't care because it doesn't matter, and our customers are either stupid, or at best simply don't realise that things could be better.

With a bit of snipping....

Anonymously Yours:

The Internet is not a democracy is an idiotic slight to make. You realize you're talking to fellow programmers here, right? Regardless, it is obvious Alex wants public participation, indicated by the existence of a Comments section in the first place, and since the Internet is not a tyranny either he can't force people to participate. That means meeting people halfway by making rules, putting them somewhere they can be read, and enforcing them. Nothing kills your membership faster than random arbitration.

While Alex has a comment section, it is his site, and he has every right to remove comments for any reason. This may include that they contribute nothing to the thread, or that he just doesn't like you, or almost anything else...You dismiss the OP's statement of "The Internet isn't a democracy" by basically agreeing that it isn't - how puzzling? You agree that the admin has ultimate power over THEIR site, yet you still insist you have been unfarily treated???
"Nothing kills membership..." - Seeing as it says 'Unregistered' next to your name, I would suggest you aren't a member....
Further, perhaps the idea IS to drive people away if they post rubbish
I have no objection to admins culling 'guest' posts (including my own) with more stringent application of rules than for members. Perhaps if you were a registered member, you would have recieved some notification as to why your post was deleted - but I'm sure you'll agree that when you post anonymously, you would be a little difficult to contact.

Anonymously Yours:

I don't think it's inappropriate to ask that, if I am to be punished, I have some clear guideline to avoid punishment again in the future. Your response is wholly inappropriate and your smug tone is unjustified.

As before, how do you propose that you might be contacted if your post were deleted? In fact, why do you even care? If the post was so important, repost it. I'm getting the impression you are just a spoilt little child.
I don't see any smug tones in the OP's posts (although this one, perhaps) - they merely pointed out that you are complaining that a post you made anonymously was deleted because the site owner didn't like it, and that the owner had every right to do so. Deal with it!!

TongueInCheek:

While Alex has a comment section, it is his site, and he has every right to remove comments for any reason. This may include that they contribute nothing to the thread, or that he just doesn't like you, or almost anything else...You dismiss the OP's statement of "The Internet isn't a democracy" by basically agreeing that it isn't - how puzzling? You agree that the admin has ultimate power over THEIR site, yet you still insist you have been unfarily treated???

My point was a great deal simpler than you make it out to be. I suspect this is because you missed it completely just as the person I responded to did. My point was when you silently moderate a website you provoke a negative reaction. In spite of your pseudo-intellectual banter, you somehow missed this. I repeated it several times so there's really no excuse.

TongueInCheek:

"Nothing kills membership..." - Seeing as it says 'Unregistered' next to your name, I would suggest you aren't a member....

I'm an unregistered member, genius. If they disabled guest posting I'd register.

TongueInCheek:

Further, perhaps the idea IS to drive people away if they post rubbish
I have no objection to admins culling 'guest' posts (including my own) with more stringent application of rules than for members.

Again, there are no posted rules. You may well drive off people who would be good posters if they'd known what it was they did wrong so they could avoid repeating it.

TongueInCheek:

Perhaps if you were a registered member, you would have recieved some notification as to why your post was deleted - but I'm sure you'll agree that when you post anonymously, you would be a little difficult to contact.

Perhaps if you'd notice that anyone could post in the comments section (and were you to also notice I clearly read this section), it might dawn on you a fairly painless way to notify unregistered people of administrative measures would be to simply have an admin post in the comments. Perhaps this particular hack is beyond you, but I assure you it's not only possible but fairly easy to do.

TongueInCheek:

In fact, why do you even care?

Because it is somewhat insulting to take the time to contribute something only to have it vanish for "contributing zero to the conversation" while "FRIST FROM HOLLAND :D" and "WHY AM I NEVER FIRST" remain unscathed.

TongueInCheek:

If the post was so important, repost it. I'm getting the impression you are just a spoilt little child.

My comments have been requests for transparency from those who moderate this site. If you get a sense of childish hostility from the parts where I reply to douchebags like yourself, you should consider I imitate the tone of those I respond to. Then again, you've proven incapable of even inferring something I spelled out repeatedly in plain English because you were trying to fit what I said to your false preconception of what I'd intended to say. I doubt you'll have any more success now.

>Binnentech is definitely interested in a trial run
>trick clients into thinking they bought a real system

TRWTF is that Binnentech bought a trial?

DilithiumCrystalMeth:

RogerC:

This might be giving the sales person far too much credit, but it is possible that he was simply exploiting a characteristic of Binnentech that he had observed and figured out how to use to his and his company's advantage. A good salesman knows how to work both a weak customer and a spineless engineering manager.

I think there's a critical difference between "working the system" and flat out lying to a customer and thus putting other people in a position to have to lie. It doesn't matter whether the sales person was fully aware of all the implications of his lie or whether he just knew that his lie would work based on past experience, the end does not justify the means.

Yeah, I probably should have used a word other than "good". My point was simply that the salesman's actions might have been due to something besides incompetence.

I agree with you about the end not justifying the means. I've met sales folk who would not hesitate to intentionally put their engineering (and legal!) departments way out on a limb just to get the sale. They are the ones who give the sales profession a bad reputation.

Anonymously Yours:

TongueInCheek:

"Nothing kills membership..." - Seeing as it says 'Unregistered' next to your name, I would suggest you aren't a member....

I'm an unregistered member, genius.

Contradictio in adiecto.

Again, there are no posted rules. You may well drive off people who would be good posters if they'd known what it was they did wrong so they could avoid repeating it.

But that's the trick, there are no fast rules! Posts are deleted when they don't contribute and a mod thinks it's worth the effort[*]. In general, they're too bored by frost pists to care about them (every now and then, they come around to deleting them from a number of threads).

[*] Seriously offensive posts are a different matter, of course.

Jackson:

Anonymously Yours:

What the hell? Why did my Jabberwocky post get deleted? If you're going to start randomly enforcing constraints on the comments the least you could do is actually write them down in the policy. You know, so you don't discourage people from feeling like they're pissing away their time if they put any effort into their posts.

"Coming soon" doesn't exactly tell me what should and should not be in a comment. If your long-term readers get the impression their comments will be deleted on a whim you can expect a lot more "FRIST" quality posts.

'Coming soon' allows each post that was deleted to be added to some hypothetical list of what isn't allowed. This list will be made available when complete. This list will be complete when all possible bad posts have been posted (and therefore added to the list). To speed up production of this list, post all your shonky posts now!

So basically they're working on getting together the technical requirements for the Policy page?

I was told that Policy page already existed, but apparently it's in the pre-pre-pre-pre-alpha stage :<

Mark Bowytz:

frits:

Meh. Par for the course.

Oh Yeah? Think that you can do better? Go ahead and tell Alex!

I note that your post was edited, and my reply deleted, both with no explanation given. What gives, Alex?

Isn't it high time we start comparing people with nazis and be done with this discussion already?

Steve H:

Mark Bowytz:

frits:

Meh. Par for the course.

Oh Yeah? Think that you can do better? Go ahead and tell Alex!

I note that your post was edited, and my reply deleted, both with no explanation given. What gives, Alex?

Mark "works" here. Maybe he didn't want to look silly.

Anonymously Yours:

What the hell? Why did my Jabberwocky post get deleted? If you're going to start randomly enforcing constraints on the comments the least you could do is actually write them down in the policy. You know, so you don't discourage people from feeling like they're pissing away their time if they put any effort into their posts.

"Coming soon" doesn't exactly tell me what should and should not be in a comment. If your long-term readers get the impression their comments will be deleted on a whim you can expect a lot more "FRIST" quality posts.

If that page were finished it still wouldn't tell you what is and isn't allowed in a comment. It's the bloody privacy policy.

If he was working in the government, he would get paid off very handsomely to roll over and submit. It's unfortunate that he couldn't get a bigger pay day.

Can we please add these rules to the comment policy?

1. Comments about the comment policy will be deleted
2. Yes, this is ironic
3. Comments about the internet not being a democracy will be deleted (this website is neither the internet, nor a government)
4. Commenters who de-rail a thread will be fed alive, kicking and screaming, into the soul-annhiliating maw of Codethulhu.