Comment On Power Supply

MRI scans, while neat, do leave something to be desired in the “fun” and “comfort” departments. After surrendering every sliver of metal and some percentage of clothing, the patient must sit or lie stock-still in a cold room for long stretches of time. As the giant magnets do their work, ear-splitting tones and rhythmic pulses fill the room. For those who lie down to enter the giant magnet-coffin, it’s easy to feel like the Frankenstein monster in some mad scientist’s German techno experiment. [expand full text]
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Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 11:38 • by D-Coder
397431 in reply to 397389
Zapp Brannigan:
What does Evi's hospital charge a patient for an aspirin?
If you have to ask, you can't afford it.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 11:39 • by Mike (unregistered)
Actually, I would be taking the attitude that the vendor was committing a fraud. I would be summoning the account manager at said vendor, followed by various official bodies if said account manager didn't open his wallet very wide.

captcha = damnum

Dead right

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 11:42 • by Herr Otto Flick (unregistered)
397433 in reply to 397398
emaNrouY-Here:
Jim:
TRWTF is noisy MRI machines. I had an MRI scan in London, UK in 2003 and there was no noticeable noise. I think I even dozed off for a while. Do modern manufacturers build in noise so that they can gouge you for fancy noise-suppression systems?

WHAT?! HALF PAST THREE!


Agreed. I've had LOTS of MRIs (Hodgkins Lymphoma will have you seeing a lot of MRI machines, chemicals, and radiation machines.) I've never had one that is very noisy. The only discomfort was the needle and the nasty contrast they make you drink.


Selection bias, on the basis of two people's personal experiences. You do realise there are literally tens of different types of MRI. High field or rapid imaging devices produce significant noise, up to 120 dB.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 11:48 • by Herr Otto Flick (unregistered)
397434 in reply to 397419
Anonymous Bob:
Charles F.:
mark:
If we had a true free market for medical care, patients would be cost-conscious, and therefore hospitals would be cost-conscious.
Then, if you got cancer you could pick which hospital would lead to you medical bankruptcy more slowly!

Don't worry, Obama took care of that for you. If you can just take a number and wait in that line over there. Shouldn't take but about nine months to see the doctor....


TRWTF is that Americans already spend more per capita on healthcare in taxes than the entirely state funded healthcare UK, French, Swedish, Swiss, German... [fill in rest of countries in the world]. Even the rich prefer it, as their 'expensive private care' is significantly cheaper than in the US (and most people have no need to bother, since the state provided healthcare is more than adequate).

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 11:56 • by cellocgw
397435 in reply to 397375
¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL:
But the case was hospital rated, so it was $1450 of the cost.

The case is the only item actually worth a high price -- it's almost certainly mu-metal (a special blend which has no magnetic susceptibility, hence safe to use near an NMR machine)

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 12:17 • by Daniel (unregistered)
397437 in reply to 397405
Lazlo:
What I don't get is how any kind of headphone at all isn't just completely wrong there. Speakers generally work by vibrating something magnetic, and anything magnetic in an MRI is going to be very bad very quickly.

So I'm really curious how this thing is made.


I suspect it is just a tube. All sound reproduction equipment is well out of range of the MRI magnetic field. Old airline headsets worked the same way.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 12:23 • by TheLazyHase
397438 in reply to 397411
Charles F.:
Unless you make all political campaigns publicly-financed.


If it wasn't sarcasm, try to see how it work out for country that try that. A hint for you : in France (admitelly, private fund are capped instead of forbidden), most political scandal happen because of private funds, so it seem to not discourage anybody.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 12:33 • by Mason Wheeler
397439 in reply to 397421
3rd Ferguson:
mark:
There is very little "free" about the market for medical equipment, and hospital services.

It is one of the most heavily regulated markets in existence.

If we had a true free market for medical care, patients would be cost-conscious, and therefore hospitals would be cost-conscious. We would also see more sane handling of liability issues and restitutions for true victims of malpractice, and thus lower liability and insuranc costs for health care providers.

This is NOT a free market.


In addition to the other attacks on this stupid post, I will say that medical treatment fails one critical test of whether an exchange is even a market in the first place, free or not. Which is that buyer and seller have similar access to information about the product or service being sold. I suppose you COULD argue about the merits of the course of treatment that the doctor is advising, and you COULD get a second opinion and argue the merits of that as well. But unless you, too, are a licensed medical professional, odds are you're at a significant disadvantage in the arguments and therefore you'll end up paying for the most expensive possible service more often than you might otherwise.


+1. This is why Libertarian notions of caveat emptor are ridiculous and harmful to society. In order to prevent information asymmetry from screwing him over every time, it requires the emptor to be an expert in the field of every single thing he ever tries to empt!

This goes against one of the most fundamental principles of civilization: specialization. Civilization evolves and grows as people become experts in one special field, to the point where others are able to trust their judgment and leave that area to them, instead of having to worry about it themselves. It allows us as a society to do more and bigger things.

It starts with dedicated farmers who produce surpluses of food large enough to feed everyone else, freeing them to dedicate themselves to other pursuits, and builds up from there. (Imagine where we'd be if we didn't have dedicated automotive technicians, electrical engineers, civil engineers, or electronics designers and programmers!)

At every level, civilization is built entirely on principles of implicit trust and trustworthiness. Therefore, a principle like caveat emptor that glorifies distrust and untrustworthiness is a barbaric principle, one that promotes barbarism rather than civilization.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 12:49 • by noPlate.head (unregistered)
397440 in reply to 397405
The magnetic parts are in another room. All you get are like the old school airplane headphones, a couple of tubes (in parallel, not series, har har) that channel the sound to you. Any transducers are at the opposite end of the tube from your ears. Your headphones are more like a stethoscope.
Having used them I can say that the sound quality is poor. And asking me what kind of music I want for something like this reminds me of "Soylent Green."

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 12:53 • by noPlate.head (unregistered)
397441 in reply to 397435
cellocgw:
¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL:
But the case was hospital rated, so it was $1450 of the cost.

The case is the only item actually worth a high price -- it's almost certainly mu-metal (a special blend which has no magnetic susceptibility, hence safe to use near an NMR machine)


So it is made of aluminum?

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 12:58 • by JAPH (unregistered)
397442 in reply to 397412
Charles F.:
¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL:
But the case was hospital rated, so it was $1450 of the cost.
That might not be as funny as it sounds. These ratings can cost tens of thousands of dollar to acquire. What's the market for MRI-safe audio systems? How much do you need to charge for each setup in order to recover costs?


I worked for a company which manufactured and monitored Personal Emergency Response Systems (PERS) - a class 2 medical device. We had to send 10 of our units to be certified and the process cost over 100k. Every time we changed chip manufacturers we had to be certified again. If it was this stringent for a PERS for in-house use, I can't imagine the process for certifying a headset designed to work near an MRI machine.

CAPTCHA: esse - Portuguese for "exactly this"

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 12:58 • by Obnoxious Frog (unregistered)
397443 in reply to 397439
Quoted for truth, and also because I'm quite flabbergasted to read something so thoughtful, clear, and well redacted in TDWTF comments.

Mason Wheeler:
+1. This is why Libertarian notions of caveat emptor are ridiculous and harmful to society. In order to prevent information asymmetry from screwing him over every time, it requires the emptor to be an expert in the field of every single thing he ever tries to empt!

This goes against one of the most fundamental principles of civilization: specialization. Civilization evolves and grows as people become experts in one special field, to the point where others are able to trust their judgment and leave that area to them, instead of having to worry about it themselves. It allows us as a society to do more and bigger things.

It starts with dedicated farmers who produce surpluses of food large enough to feed everyone else, freeing them to dedicate themselves to other pursuits, and builds up from there. (Imagine where we'd be if we didn't have dedicated automotive technicians, electrical engineers, civil engineers, or electronics designers and programmers!)

At every level, civilization is built entirely on principles of implicit trust and trustworthiness. Therefore, a principle like caveat emptor that glorifies distrust and untrustworthiness is a barbaric principle, one that promotes barbarism rather than civilization.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 13:03 • by Worse than /pol/ (unregistered)
397444 in reply to 397385
Worse than /pol/:

Damn my link's broken already. I knew I should have looked for a more reliable imageserver.

Also Akismet sucks. No really, I see daily complaints about it here, and apparently this has been going on for years. Seriously? Could we please improve or remove the Captcha or the spam filter? I guess Alex doesn't usually post comments here.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 13:03 • by Tony (unregistered)
397445 in reply to 397375
¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL:
But the case was hospital rated, so it was $1450 of the cost.


Exactly! That's why a Craftsman #2 phillips screwdriver costs the military $250 instead of $8 - it has to be specially certified. Same materials, same design, same function... huge markup! That's government for you!

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 13:04 • by Captcha:suscipit (unregistered)
397446 in reply to 397442
JAPH:
Charles F.:
¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL:
But the case was hospital rated, so it was $1450 of the cost.
That might not be as funny as it sounds. These ratings can cost tens of thousands of dollar to acquire. What's the market for MRI-safe audio systems? How much do you need to charge for each setup in order to recover costs?


I worked for a company which manufactured and monitored Personal Emergency Response Systems (PERS) - a class 2 medical device. We had to send 10 of our units to be certified and the process cost over 100k. Every time we changed chip manufacturers we had to be certified again. If it was this stringent for a PERS for in-house use, I can't imagine the process for certifying a headset designed to work near an MRI machine.

And yet I bet whoever issues those certificates would gladly do it for $50k if you promised not to tell.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 13:08 • by cbarn (unregistered)
397447 in reply to 397403
[quote user="operagostDoes it matter that the affected system is just for patient comfort, and in no way affects the function of the instrument? [/quote]
It may not be only for patient comfort. The last time I had an MRI the headsets were used not only for noise reduction but for relaying instructions to the patient (e.g. "Hold your breath ... keep holding ... release ... we'll do that again in 10 seconds ...")

That damn breath-holding, have-to-listen requirement also cost me a 45 minute nap ... sleeping through a noisy MRI is nothing after raising three boys.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 13:09 • by Bored (unregistered)
397448 in reply to 397439
Mason Wheeler:
(Imagine where we'd be if we didn't have dedicated automotive technicians, electrical engineers, civil engineers, or electronics designers and programmers!)


You forgot the public telephone handset cleaners.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 13:20 • by Joe (unregistered)
397449 in reply to 397413
Your Name:
In a free market, if I fall off my motorcycle, I would be able to take my severe lacerations, multiple fractures, and concussion to a series of different emergency care facilities, get competing estimates, and make an informed, rational decision about the provider that is providing the level of service at the price appropriate to me
You would also be able to do that research and make those choices before sustaining an injury... if you wanted to.

For that matter, you could even hire someone to do that research for you -- again, if you wanted to. You could pay them a small retainer to act on your behalf in your best interest, to whatever degree makes the most sense to you. Let's call that "someone" an "ensurance" company, because they would help you ensure that you get a good deal and quality care.

Also, in a free market, you'd get to choose whatever ensurance company gave you the best price and the best combination of services fit for your needs as you perceive them, instead of being forced to deal with the one sole bureaucracy approved by the governing powers getting their kickbacks.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 13:21 • by Slapout (unregistered)
397450 in reply to 397389
Zapp Brannigan:
What does Evi's hospital charge a patient for an aspirin?


Let's see:

The aspirin: .50
Paying a nurse to bring it to you: $10.00
Filling out the insurance paperwork: $12.00
Filling out the required government forms: $20.00
Total: $42.50

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 13:24 • by Occassional Medical Device Hacker (unregistered)
397451 in reply to 397440
Indeed the actual headphone is not metal, but any lawyer would still argue that it is part of the MRI machine and it connects to the patient. If it touches the MRI machine, it has to be susceptible to the same standard as the MRI machine itself (because someone had better made REALLY, REALLY sure there are no metal parts in there. Just as someone should catch all the other hundreds of idiosyncrasies involved with reliably operating equipment in an MRI + Hospital (magnetics AND chemicals) environment. Even if the device has an inherently safe design (which medical engineers are actually paid to create), someone has to check (and certify, with a big penalty in case he was wrong) that it is indeed safe.

Playing loose with these rules is ok as long you accept that it might cost you quite a bit.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 13:36 • by Zylon
I've seen the opposite situation on a kiosk project I worked on a while back. Typical setup—a standalone box with a touchscreen monitor and speakers. For the speakers you'd think they'd just go for powered speakers or a basic little amp box, right? Nooooooo. First time we cracked one open to install the software, we found a full receiver in there. Doing nothing but driving two chintzy little speakers. Sigh.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 13:39 • by Charles F. (unregistered)
397453 in reply to 397419
Anonymous Bob:
Charles F.:
mark:
If we had a true free market for medical care, patients would be cost-conscious, and therefore hospitals would be cost-conscious.
Then, if you got cancer you could pick which hospital would lead to you medical bankruptcy more slowly!

Don't worry, Obama took care of that for you. If you can just take a number and wait in that line over there. Shouldn't take but about nine months to see the doctor....
Yeah... I have a doctor in reality, not the parallel universe that Glenn Beck beamed in from. I just make an appointment.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 13:41 • by 3rd Ferguson (unregistered)
397454 in reply to 397429
WPFWTF:
3rd Ferguson:


Medical treatment fails one critical test of whether an exchange is even a market in the first place, free or not. Which is that buyer and seller have similar access to information about the product or service being sold. But unless you, too, are a licensed medical professional, odds are you're at a significant disadvantage in the arguments and therefore you'll end up paying for the most expensive possible service more often than you might otherwise.


So, what do I do when I go to buy a vacuum cleaner. I'm not an electrician, so I can possibly have similar access to information. I suppose I could ask an electrician, and that has its merits, but it's not equal access to information.

I could ask that society accept that we should all be educated in electricity and fans, and such, so that we'll all have equal access to information, but that's not a good idea at all.

No, let's go ask for a third opinion from so called "public expert electricians" because the government oath is to "Do no harm" but that's mentioned nothing of the consumers pocketbook, so we can tax the hell out of them for it as well. And we'll mandate it to, so we'll have a government monopoly on equal access to information.

But that's nothing like the "free market", so it's guaranteed to work.


This is also a stupid post. I invite you to compare and contrast your exposure to death and bankruptcy when shopping for a vacuum cleaner with that of obtaining, say, cancer treatment. Is your vacuum decision revokable, by, say, returning it to the store? How about your oncologist's decision to blast you with radiation? What are the consequences of NOT obtaining a vacuum cleaner? Compare with those of NOT seeking cancer treatment? Is there time pressure in one case but not the other? What amount of training would be required to become a knowledgeable consumer of vacuum cleaners versus cancer treatments? Are there other steps required before purchasing a vacuum cleaner such as diagnosis or triage that might also require post-graduate training? Compare the costs in time, materials and money for training in cancer diagnosis and treatment with those of an associate-level degree in a consumer electronics-related field.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 13:53 • by Ben (unregistered)
397455 in reply to 397388
Occassional Medical Device Hacker:
If it is part of an MRI machine - ESPECIALLY if it attached to the patient in any way, it has to be FDA certified. This is an extremely complicated process, but it ensures that you can use any medical device without unnecessary harm to you - in particular, for MRI devices you will need a rather good case to ensure that whatever cheapo hardware (they probably bought a few cheap stereos at the local electronics store) survives being exposed to an oscillating 1.5 T magnetic field without running any induced current through your body.
As such (and because of the huge risks/liabilities involved) such devices also have to go through very stringent quality controls.

If the manufacturer repairs the device in any way, they will have to do the entire QC again, and they might legitimately not have spare power supplies (because only one particular cheap chinese power supply ever matched the definition) or more likely they bought the supply as a black box component from a (maybe now defunct) third party vendor, so they won't touch it with a 5 foot pole so no lawyer can say they broke it.

TL;DR : This is about liability. Whoever fixed this could be in serious trouble if anything ever happens near that MRI.


So TRWTF is government?

Captcha: facilisi (fascism by liability laws)

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 13:54 • by A Luser (unregistered)
397456 in reply to 397378
Gomer Pyle:
Floating ground anyone?

captcha: causa - fire?


Oh, I'll betcha it had CE and UL approval marks on the label :-)

Another example of Quality Chinese Engineering.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 14:02 • by Ben (unregistered)
397457 in reply to 397439
Mason Wheeler:

+1. This is why Libertarian notions of caveat emptor are ridiculous and harmful to society. In order to prevent information asymmetry from screwing him over every time, it requires the emptor to be an expert in the field of every single thing he ever tries to empt!

This goes against one of the most fundamental principles of civilization: specialization. Civilization evolves and grows as people become experts in one special field, to the point where others are able to trust their judgment and leave that area to them, instead of having to worry about it themselves. It allows us as a society to do more and bigger things.

It starts with dedicated farmers who produce surpluses of food large enough to feed everyone else, freeing them to dedicate themselves to other pursuits, and builds up from there. (Imagine where we'd be if we didn't have dedicated automotive technicians, electrical engineers, civil engineers, or electronics designers and programmers!)

At every level, civilization is built entirely on principles of implicit trust and trustworthiness. Therefore, a principle like caveat emptor that glorifies distrust and untrustworthiness is a barbaric principle, one that promotes barbarism rather than civilization.


Given the fact that there are at least 50,000 deaths and 1,000,000 excess injuries yearly in U.S. hospitals alone, I would say that caveat emptor is a pretty darn good principle to live by. Putting your faith in government to take care of you, on the other hand, is not.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 14:10 • by Your Name (unregistered)
397458 in reply to 397449
Joe:
Your Name:
In a free market, if I fall off my motorcycle, I would be able to take my severe lacerations, multiple fractures, and concussion to a series of different emergency care facilities, get competing estimates, and make an informed, rational decision about the provider that is providing the level of service at the price appropriate to me
You would also be able to do that research and make those choices before sustaining an injury... if you wanted to.

For that matter, you could even hire someone to do that research for you -- again, if you wanted to. You could pay them a small retainer to act on your behalf in your best interest, to whatever degree makes the most sense to you. Let's call that "someone" an "ensurance" company, because they would help you ensure that you get a good deal and quality care.

Also, in a free market, you'd get to choose whatever ensurance company gave you the best price and the best combination of services fit for your needs as you perceive them, instead of being forced to deal with the one sole bureaucracy approved by the governing powers getting their kickbacks.


And how, exactly, does this change the fact that emergency care is, by definition, time-critical, and so the "best" source of emergency care will generally be "whichever trauma center is nearest to the scene of the accident", who, in a free market, could price whatever the market could bear?

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 14:33 • by Double E (unregistered)
397459 in reply to 397426
Y_F:
Charles F.:
mark:
If we had a true free market for medical care, patients would be cost-conscious, and therefore hospitals would be cost-conscious.
Then, if you got cancer you could pick which hospital would lead to you medical bankruptcy more slowly!

Only if you live in the US, where hospitals will milk you to the bone, and toss you through a window when you have no money left.

At least if you lived in the UK, France, or even Brazil or Cuba, you'd have at least a chance of free care!


Except, of course, it's not "free". It's just that somebody else paid for it. Unless doctors and nurses in the UK, France, or even Brazil or Cuba are paid with unicorn farts.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 14:38 • by Joe (unregistered)
397460 in reply to 397458
Your Name:
And how, exactly, does this change the fact that emergency care is, by definition, time-critical, and so the "best" source of emergency care will generally be "whichever trauma center is nearest to the scene of the accident", who, in a free market, could price whatever the market could bear?
Unless, of course, you (or your "ensurance" company) had the foresight to negotiate those prices in advance.

I am always amazed how many people will line up to say "I don't want to be allowed to make a choice, because I might make the wrong choice. On the other hand, if someone who is not me and doesn't really care about me as much as I do makes the choice for me, and I'm stuck with it, they will at least always make the right choice. Because authorities are so much smarter and wiser than I could ever be, even if I paid someone to help me."

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 14:43 • by Bill Dance (unregistered)
Nice shot of your crotch.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 15:01 • by Ben (unregistered)
397462 in reply to 397426
Y_F:

Only if you live in the US, where hospitals will milk you to the bone, and toss you through a window when you have no money left.

At least if you lived in the UK, France, or even Brazil or Cuba, you'd have at least a chance of free care!


I'm stunned that anybody would hold up Cuba as an example of 'fair' or 'free' health care. Ordinary citizens can't even get in to the upper tier hospitals reserved for foreigners and Party members, let alone get access to actual medication.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 15:02 • by Darth Paul (unregistered)
397463 in reply to 397449
Joe:
Your Name:
In a free market, if I fall off my motorcycle, I would be able to take my severe lacerations, multiple fractures, and concussion to a series of different emergency care facilities, get competing estimates, and make an informed, rational decision about the provider that is providing the level of service at the price appropriate to me
You would also be able to do that research and make those choices before sustaining an injury... if you wanted to.

For that matter, you could even hire someone to do that research for you -- again, if you wanted to. You could pay them a small retainer to act on your behalf in your best interest, to whatever degree makes the most sense to you. Let's call that "someone" an "ensurance" company, because they would help you ensure that you get a good deal and quality care.

Also, in a free market, you'd get to choose whatever ensurance company gave you the best price and the best combination of services fit for your needs as you perceive them, instead of being forced to deal with the one sole bureaucracy approved by the governing powers getting their kickbacks.


And yet, other countries with free health care get more medical care for less money spent per capita with no compromise in quality of care. And doctors still earn enough to be good marriage targets.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 15:04 • by Darth Paul (unregistered)
397464 in reply to 397451
Occassional Medical Device Hacker:
Indeed the actual headphone is not metal, but any lawyer would still argue that it is part of the MRI machine and it connects to the patient. If it touches the MRI machine, it has to be susceptible to the same standard as the MRI machine itself (because someone had better made REALLY, REALLY sure there are no metal parts in there. Just as someone should catch all the other hundreds of idiosyncrasies involved with reliably operating equipment in an MRI + Hospital (magnetics AND chemicals) environment. Even if the device has an inherently safe design (which medical engineers are actually paid to create), someone has to check (and certify, with a big penalty in case he was wrong) that it is indeed safe.

Playing loose with these rules is ok as long you accept that it might cost you quite a bit.


And yet, the patient does not require $100K of certification to ensure they have no metal objects on their person.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 15:17 • by Charles F. (unregistered)
397465 in reply to 397460
Joe:
I am always amazed how many people will line up to say "I don't want to be allowed to make a choice, because I might make the wrong choice. On the other hand, if someone who is not me and doesn't really care about me as much as I do makes the choice for me, and I'm stuck with it, they will at least always make the right choice. Because authorities are so much smarter and wiser than I could ever be, even if I paid someone to help me."
The issue is that few of us have the requisite expertise to make informed choices. Much of the content on this web site is a monument to the outcomes of choices made by people who don't understand the things on which they are deciding. For some reason, the site is not named "The Daily Super-Efficient Decision Making."

What amazes me is that if you are going to defer judgement to experts, why would you choose a group of people (insurance companies) who have a profit motive to screw you over?!

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 15:48 • by NotHere
Power Supply: $10

Liability Insurance in case it catches fire and burns down the building: $1490.

Knowledge that its not Your Problem: priceless.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 15:51 • by Occassional Medical Device Hacker (unregistered)
397468 in reply to 397464
No, but they do have to go through a metal detector. MRI for persons with any metal implants is non-trival/ sometimes impossible.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 16:10 • by angry chinaman (unregistered)
And just like that, 2,000 chinese jobs disappeared.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 16:12 • by Stephane (unregistered)
397470 in reply to 397437
Yup, even found a seller for specific mri headphones. 275$ for a pair. Hopefully the op can save his hospital some money :)

http://www.scansound.com/index.php/mri-music/pneumatic-mri-headphones/mri-noise-reduction-headphone.html#

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 16:22 • by Scott (unregistered)
Not that I would have solved the engineering problem with hot glue and laptop power supplies, but I'm surprised at the number of comments berating the expense of things like this. There is a significant amount of expense for overhead (engineering, logistics, review), that, if you can only spread over a unit run of, say, 100 power supplies, results in a high price, even if the part that failed (whose own high overhead cost is spread over 100,000 units) is available for $10. If the thing were made of 7809's, it would be the same story--$1500 for a 7809? Try 15 cents. But there's more to it than just a silicon part.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 16:32 • by Coyne
Non-compliance! Breach of patient safety! Patent infringement. Trademark violation! NAFTA violation! UL derated! Licensing violation!

How dare you short us our $1500!

See you in court, buddy boy!

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 16:39 • by Mason Wheeler
397473 in reply to 397468
Occassional Medical Device Hacker:
No, but they do have to go through a metal detector. MRI for persons with any metal implants is non-trival/ sometimes impossible.


Hmm. My brother has a titanium plate in his leg, left over from a fracture when he was in his teens. What would happen if he needed an MRI?

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 16:48 • by AN AMAZING CODER (unregistered)
As everyone pointed out, I immediately thought "The price is so high because of certification processes...duh" when I read about the price. Then as soon as I read the "WTF", I thought "As silly as the product might look, fixing that in house is a bigger WTF".

I'm super happy that so many others thought of this immediately as well.

Starting to question the diversity in the editors' experiences lately.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 16:52 • by TheLazyHase
397475 in reply to 397473
Mason Wheeler :

Hmm. My brother has a titanium plate in his leg, left over from a fracture when he was in his teens. What would happen if he needed an MRI?


Wikipedia say to me that Titanium is not a magnetic metal (and specifically say it's consequently safe for MRI). I suppose he would be fine.

If he had a plate in a magnetic material, chance are hospital would use a less precise but still adequate technology, maybe X-ray. It's not different from being allergic to a common drug.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 16:55 • by AN AMAZING CODER (unregistered)
397476 in reply to 397467
NotHere:
Power Supply: $10

Liability Insurance in case it catches fire and burns down the building: $1490.

Knowledge that its not Your Problem: priceless.



not sure if trolling, but...not only is liability insurance for a hospital way more than $1490, but there are possible legal ramifications for the "repairman" who most likely violated procedure with these repairs. Just like if you were to cause an action that violated HIPPA.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 16:57 • by Krise (unregistered)
397477 in reply to 397388
Occassional Medical Device Hacker:
If it is part of an MRI machine - ESPECIALLY if it attached to the patient in any way, it has to be FDA certified. This is an extremely complicated process, but it ensures that you can use any medical device without unnecessary harm to you - in particular, for MRI devices you will need a rather good case to ensure that whatever cheapo hardware (they probably bought a few cheap stereos at the local electronics store) survives being exposed to an oscillating 1.5 T magnetic field without running any induced current through your body.
As such (and because of the huge risks/liabilities involved) such devices also have to go through very stringent quality controls.

If the manufacturer repairs the device in any way, they will have to do the entire QC again, and they might legitimately not have spare power supplies (because only one particular cheap chinese power supply ever matched the definition) or more likely they bought the supply as a black box component from a (maybe now defunct) third party vendor, so they won't touch it with a 5 foot pole so no lawyer can say they broke it.

TL;DR : This is about liability. Whoever fixed this could be in serious trouble if anything ever happens near that MRI.
Yes, because we all know that every dailywtf is set in America.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 17:01 • by asdfg (unregistered)
397478 in reply to 397399
Mike:
A medical grade device must pass the IEC 60601 test on radio frequency energy end electical safety.

For a personal computer it means that a "Medical kit" consisting in a power cord with ferrite beads and a not so crappy keyboard and mouse are sold in a box with a nice manual stating that the devices were tested to comply with the standards.

The computer and LCD monitor are exactly the same for non medical applications.

Changing a cheap chinese power supply with another cheap chinese power supply of differen make or model voids the IEC compliance tests. It's the same for UL or VDE compliance: if you change a component with onde that's different for the ceritfication, voids the certifications.






But is a power pack for some fancy speakers that are totally unrelated to the MRI machine really a "medical grade device"?

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 17:02 • by kbiel (unregistered)
397479 in reply to 397454
3rd Ferguson:
WPFWTF:
3rd Ferguson:


Medical treatment fails one critical test of whether an exchange is even a market in the first place... Which is that buyer and seller have similar access to information about the product or service being sold.


So, what do I do when I go to buy a vacuum cleaner. I'm not an electrician, so I can possibly have similar access to information. I suppose I could ask an electrician, and that has its merits, but it's not equal access to information...


This is also a stupid post. I invite you to compare and contrast your exposure to death and bankruptcy when shopping for a vacuum cleaner with that of obtaining, say, cancer treatment. Is your vacuum decision revokable, by, say, returning it to the store? How about your oncologist's decision to blast you with radiation? What are the consequences of NOT obtaining a vacuum cleaner? Compare with those of NOT seeking cancer treatment? Is there time pressure in one case but not the other? What amount of training would be required to become a knowledgeable consumer of vacuum cleaners versus cancer treatments? Are there other steps required before purchasing a vacuum cleaner such as diagnosis or triage that might also require post-graduate training? Compare the costs in time, materials and money for training in cancer diagnosis and treatment with those of an associate-level degree in a consumer electronics-related field.


So, shopping for an oncologist or a pediatrician or a podiatrist or a cardiologist should never be done the same way you would, say, for a vacuum cleaner or a carpet cleaning service or a flooring installer? You should just go to the nearest (government approved) doctor and not learn anything about their reputation, success rate (for a given procedure or course of treatment), bedside manner, or price? Having places like this is horrible right? It would be even worse if there were multiple such companies competing against each other on price, reputation, and services offered, right? All very bad, I'm sure, we should just switch off our brains when it comes to health care and let the experts (and politicians) handle it.

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 17:08 • by Roger Wolff. (unregistered)
I fell asleep in the darn thing. Then they wake me up, by calling over the PA into the machine, to tell me they are sorry that the soothing music isn't working. Grrr....

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 17:08 • by Raining on Parades (unregistered)
397481 in reply to 397429
WPFWTF:
3rd Ferguson:


Medical treatment fails one critical test of whether an exchange is even a market in the first place, free or not. Which is that buyer and seller have similar access to information about the product or service being sold. But unless you, too, are a licensed medical professional, odds are you're at a significant disadvantage in the arguments and therefore you'll end up paying for the most expensive possible service more often than you might otherwise.


So, what do I do when I go to buy a vacuum cleaner. I'm not an electrician, so I can possibly have similar access to information. I suppose I could ask an electrician, and that has its merits, but it's not equal access to information.

I could ask that society accept that we should all be educated in electricity and fans, and such, so that we'll all have equal access to information, but that's not a good idea at all.

No, let's go ask for a third opinion from so called "public expert electricians" because the government oath is to "Do no harm" but that's mentioned nothing of the consumers pocketbook, so we can tax the hell out of them for it as well. And we'll mandate it to, so we'll have a government monopoly on equal access to information.

But that's nothing like the "free market", so it's guaranteed to work.
I've never met a vaccuum cleaner salesman who's an electrician either - in fact I'd almost argue that I understand the vaccuum cleaner better than the guy trying to tell me that this one actually cleans carpet better and with more power than anything else but doesn't rip my carpet to shit....

Re: Power Supply

2012-12-18 17:14 • by WPFWTF (unregistered)
397482 in reply to 397454
3rd Ferguson:
WPFWTF:
3rd Ferguson:


Medical treatment fails one critical test of whether an exchange is even a market in the first place, free or not. Which is that buyer and seller have similar access to information about the product or service being sold. But unless you, too, are a licensed medical professional, odds are you're at a significant disadvantage in the arguments and therefore you'll end up paying for the most expensive possible service more often than you might otherwise.


So, what do I do when I go to buy a vacuum cleaner. I'm not an electrician, so I can possibly have similar access to information. I suppose I could ask an electrician, and that has its merits, but it's not equal access to information.

I could ask that society accept that we should all be educated in electricity and fans, and such, so that we'll all have equal access to information, but that's not a good idea at all.

No, let's go ask for a third opinion from so called "public expert electricians" because the government oath is to "Do no harm" but that's mentioned nothing of the consumers pocketbook, so we can tax the hell out of them for it as well. And we'll mandate it to, so we'll have a government monopoly on equal access to information.

But that's nothing like the "free market", so it's guaranteed to work.


This is also a stupid post. I invite you to compare and contrast your exposure to death and bankruptcy when shopping for a vacuum cleaner with that of obtaining, say, cancer treatment. Is your vacuum decision revokable, by, say, returning it to the store? How about your oncologist's decision to blast you with radiation? What are the consequences of NOT obtaining a vacuum cleaner? Compare with those of NOT seeking cancer treatment? Is there time pressure in one case but not the other? What amount of training would be required to become a knowledgeable consumer of vacuum cleaners versus cancer treatments? Are there other steps required before purchasing a vacuum cleaner such as diagnosis or triage that might also require post-graduate training? Compare the costs in time, materials and money for training in cancer diagnosis and treatment with those of an associate-level degree in a consumer electronics-related field.


Can you truly expect everyone to be able to have sufficient knowledge to make a choice on a given product of moderate complexity?

So they have to rely on an expert to make those decisions for them?

What's the difference between a public employed expert and a private employed expert? Profit you say? Really? There are public employee unions. Aren't they making income? Can you expect the same level of specialization and education from a low-paid government employee tasked with dolling out critical information?

Can't the government put pressure on its employees to sell more "services" to get more costs out of the consumer so to raise its available funds. Whereby politicians vote for the funds to be open (just like Social Security), so they can apply those funds to getting re-elected?

The difference between me and you isn't that I believe there's nothing wrong and you find everything wrong. The difference between me and you is that we both see a problem and you think that the government is somehow less corrupt than the private industry and more capable for solving the problem.
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