Comment On The Old Switch n' Bait

A few years back, RJ was hiring developers. Besieged by pretenders, he had devised an online coding test and hired a recruitment firm to subject candidates to it in hopes of weeding out the lower-quality developers. Since RJ and a teammate had to assess each candidate by themselves, the test was an important time-saver: if the candidate's code wouldn't even compile, refused to run, or obviously didn't work, that was an easy write-off. But this story wouldn't be much of a WTF if it were merely about some feckless applicant. [expand full text]
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Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 06:43 • by np (unregistered)
Sounds like something I'd go for as well.
Hire my wife as a telecommuter. She'll produce great code for you...
So what if it looks identical to mine. It isn't like I don't have another 8 hours to my day to double my income.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 06:57 • by Dhamp (unregistered)
Sounds pretty standard practice for agencies.

Like the ones who insist on me being a perfect fit for SAP Basis consultancy roles despite having only client support experience.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 07:02 • by Sunil Sdlavrot (unregistered)
Huge discussion about sexism coming up in 3... 2... 1...

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 07:07 • by ochrist
But did they hire him?

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 07:12 • by Cujo (unregistered)
Previous to my employment there, the place I'm currently working hired someone who was Chinese, though it probably could be any race that "all look the same to us stupid Americans". The interview and technical questions at the in person interview went amazingly well. A few weeks later the new candidate shows up and is completely clueless.
I've never found out if this guy had a twin brother but I inherited his desk and folders. I discovered two different sets of handwriting and two distinctly different sets of writing styles by the same author. One had no clue the other was surprisingly accurate and insightful. It made me wonder if there were two people employed at different jobs and they switched places every few days.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 07:36 • by Herwig (unregistered)
414080 in reply to 414077
Sunil Sdlavrot:
Huge discussion about sexism coming up in 3... 2... 1...

n0ma'am

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 07:38 • by DonaldK (unregistered)
414081 in reply to 414078
ochrist:
But did they hire him?


^
|
-------- What ochrist asked

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 07:50 • by snoofle
article:
The recruiter drone told RJ this was standard procedure: they got a substantially higher commission for placing a female candidate.
So fraud is standard procedure? I hope they have blackballed this recruiter/firm!

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 07:59 • by ObiWayneKenobi
Shock! Horror! Recruiters lie!

How about a story or two showing how companies lie and do a bait and switch? That's far more common to me. Oh yes this is an analyst job. Oh hey no you're really doing SQL. Yes this is the IT department of a single company... surprise, we just now broke off into a consulting company but we still pretend we're IT for the company, but now you may have to do work for other companies too because we think our way is unique and can be adapted for others.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 08:04 • by lucidfox
414084 in reply to 414077
Sunil Sdlavrot:
Huge discussion about sexism coming up in 3... 2... 1...

Was about to say that. Hivemind :)

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 08:09 • by Doppleganger (unregistered)
414085 in reply to 414082
snoofle:
article:
The recruiter drone told RJ this was standard procedure: they got a substantially higher commission for placing a female candidate.
So fraud is standard procedure? I hope they have blackballed this recruiter/firm!


Ayup, this is more common than many realize. Had a discussion at work about this a few months ago. I have to admit, when I was a manager, we rarely used recruiting agencies, but finding they'd have one person do the telephone screen and send a different one to the F2F or even to the actual job once hired shocked the hell out of me. (Generally the worst I had personally seen was rewritten resumes that outright lied. Hint, it's a bad sign when you ask the candidate about something on their resume and they ask to see the resume that was sent to you.)

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 08:10 • by d (unregistered)
414086 in reply to 414084
lucidfox:
Sunil Sdlavrot:
Huge discussion about sexism coming up in 3... 2... 1...

Was about to say that. Hivemind :)


That's because you all think alike

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 08:12 • by lucidfox
414087 in reply to 414086
"You" who?

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 08:13 • by ZoomST (unregistered)
414088 in reply to 414086
d:
lucidfox:
Sunil Sdlavrot:
Huge discussion about sexism coming up in 3... 2... 1...
Was about to say that. Hivemind :)
That's because you stupid %GENDER% people all think alike
FTFY

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 08:16 • by Craig (unregistered)
I've seen this myself when recruiting staff. Two near-identical applications listing near-identical experience with near-identical personal statements and near-identical addresses. I considered the possible scenarios in which they could have come in: Agency fraud, two friends copying from one anothers' applications, one applicant trying to take a double-dip at recruitment etc.

In the end I decided that there was no scenario in which I'd want to follow-up these applications to interview. I filed them both into my "Reject" pile, along with the applications from people who were clearly not developers.

In that case, whatever had happened to lead to those two applications cost that person/those people any reasonable consideration for the job.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 09:01 • by Medinoc
414090 in reply to 414085
Doppleganger:
snoofle:
So fraud is standard procedure? I hope they have blackballed this recruiter/firm!


Ayup, this is more common than many realize. Had a discussion at work about this a few months ago. I have to admit, when I was a manager, we rarely used recruiting agencies, but finding they'd have one person do the telephone screen and send a different one to the F2F or even to the actual job once hired shocked the hell out of me. (Generally the worst I had personally seen was rewritten resumes that outright lied. Hint, it's a bad sign when you ask the candidate about something on their resume and they ask to see the resume that was sent to you.)

Sounds a lot like The Shoe-In.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 09:22 • by Keyboard Goop (unregistered)
414091 in reply to 414082
snoofle:
article:
The recruiter drone told RJ this was standard procedure: they got a substantially higher commission for placing a female candidate.
So fraud is standard procedure? I hope they have blackballed this recruiter/firm!


No, of course not. Fraud is the only procedure recruiters use.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 09:31 • by ¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL (unregistered)
414092 in reply to 414085
Doppleganger:
(Generally the worst I had personally seen was rewritten resumes that outright lied. Hint, it's a bad sign when you ask the candidate about something on their resume and they ask to see the resume that was sent to you.)
This is why conslutting agencies have such a hard-on for wanting your resume "in Word format". It's so they can tinker with it. Some just want to slap their own branding on top of it, but some want to, shall we say, "zoom and enhance" it.

Always bring at least three paper copies of the original version of your resume to the interview, if for no reason other than to cover your ass when they ask you about something that got stuffed into the resume without your knowledge.

Anyhow, being that I have no love for Microsoft crap, and especially all the obscure flavors of .doc files that change with every major release, I submit in .rtf format saved from OS X's TextEdit. It lets them get their fingers in it without me having to use a proprietary binary format for text. "I can't believe it's not rancid butter!"

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 09:43 • by MightyM (unregistered)
414093 in reply to 414092
¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL:


Anyhow, being that I have no love for Microsoft crap, and especially all the obscure flavors of .doc files that change with every major release, I submit in .rtf format saved from OS X's TextEdit. It lets them get their fingers in it without me having to use a proprietary binary format for text. "I can't believe it's not rancid butter!"


Um, MS Office hasn't been using a "proprietary binary format" since 2007.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 09:52 • by Charles D. (unregistered)
414095 in reply to 414093
MightyM:
Um, MS Office hasn't been using a "proprietary binary format" since 2007.


To the contrary; they only started following their own (bought and paid for) "standard" much more recently than that.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 09:52 • by snoofle
414096 in reply to 414090
Medinoc:
Doppleganger:
snoofle:
So fraud is standard procedure? I hope they have blackballed this recruiter/firm!


Ayup, this is more common than many realize. Had a discussion at work about this a few months ago. I have to admit, when I was a manager, we rarely used recruiting agencies, but finding they'd have one person do the telephone screen and send a different one to the F2F or even to the actual job once hired shocked the hell out of me. (Generally the worst I had personally seen was rewritten resumes that outright lied. Hint, it's a bad sign when you ask the candidate about something on their resume and they ask to see the resume that was sent to you.)

Sounds a lot like The Shoe-In.
The last line of the linked article referred to the candidate as "a complete loser". I find it fascinating that interviewers assume that the candidate is a loser simply because there is a huge difference in their actual experience and either a headhunter-rewritten-pack-of-lies or incorrect job description.

Just because someone's experience is different from what you need doesn't make them a loser.

It's not the candidate people!

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 09:57 • by Bob (unregistered)
414097 in reply to 414085
Doppleganger:
snoofle:
article:
The recruiter drone told RJ this was standard procedure: they got a substantially higher commission for placing a female candidate.
So fraud is standard procedure? I hope they have blackballed this recruiter/firm!


Ayup, this is more common than many realize. Had a discussion at work about this a few months ago. I have to admit, when I was a manager, we rarely used recruiting agencies, but finding they'd have one person do the telephone screen and send a different one to the F2F or even to the actual job once hired shocked the hell out of me. (Generally the worst I had personally seen was rewritten resumes that outright lied. Hint, it's a bad sign when you ask the candidate about something on their resume and they ask to see the resume that was sent to you.)


I had to do this at a couple of interviews when I was first starting out. Recruitment agencies would hack and slash my CV to fit the job and then hack and slash the job ad to make me feel confident about going to interview. Presumably they got paid per candidate rather than for filling the role.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 10:04 • by operagost
414098 in reply to 414079
Cujo:
Previous to my employment there, the place I'm currently working hired someone who was Chinese, though it probably could be any race that "all look the same to us stupid Americans". The interview and technical questions at the in person interview went amazingly well. A few weeks later the new candidate shows up and is completely clueless.
I've never found out if this guy had a twin brother but I inherited his desk and folders. I discovered two different sets of handwriting and two distinctly different sets of writing styles by the same author. One had no clue the other was surprisingly accurate and insightful. It made me wonder if there were two people employed at different jobs and they switched places every few days.

MPD.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 10:05 • by ¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL (unregistered)
414099 in reply to 414093
MightyM:
Um, MS Office hasn't been using a "proprietary binary format" since 2007.
Word has been around since... 1983? (That long, really?) 2007 is four years ago. So 4/30 is what... 13%? I call that 'experimental error'. And they basically had to be shamed into making that change.

I blame it all on that commie tabs bar thingy.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 10:16 • by gramie
I worked with a Chinese woman whose husband was a professor at our local university. She had a Computer Science degree from this university, but on the job she was shockingly incapable. Aside from almost nonexistent programming and computer skills, her spoken and written English were dismal, and I concluded that her husband must have done most (if not all) of the work for her degree. I can't figure out how she passed the exams.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 10:25 • by vulputate (unregistered)
Right or wrong, this is simply how recruitment was done back then.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 10:26 • by Tim (unregistered)
414103 in reply to 414099
2007-2013>4 years

Try 6 years.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 10:29 • by John Jiang (unregistered)
I'm John Jiang and so is my wife.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 10:35 • by Chose Binouche (unregistered)
414106 in reply to 414099

13%? I call that 'experimental error'

You are a lousy scientist.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 10:58 • by ZoomST (unregistered)
414109 in reply to 414093
¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL:
This is why conslutting agencies have such a hard-on [...]
^this +1
MightyM:
¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL:
Anyhow, being that I have no love for Microsoft crap, and especially all the obscure flavors of .doc files that change with every major release, I submit in .rtf format saved from OS X's TextEdit. It lets them get their fingers in it without me having to use a proprietary binary format for text. "I can't believe it's not rancid butter!"
Um, MS Office hasn't been using a "proprietary binary format" since 2007.
...that doesn't mean the conslutting agencies switched to MS-Word 2007. You could be amazed to find some are still using MS-Word 98 happily, destroying your carefully formatted doc.
I usually submit in PDF, then when some agent asks for a MS-Word formatted doc, I use a fancy export function that some suites have -- given that "export" function may or may not work well.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 11:08 • by ceiswyn (unregistered)
414110 in reply to 414106
Chose Binouche:

13%? I call that 'experimental error'

You are a lousy scientist.


Probably an astronomer. Anything within an order of magnitude is close enough :)

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 11:15 • by ICH (unregistered)
414111 in reply to 414085
Doppleganger:


Ayup, this is more common than many realize. Had a discussion at work about this a few months ago. I have to admit, when I was a manager, we rarely used recruiting agencies, but finding they'd have one person do the telephone screen and send a different one to the F2F or even to the actual job once hired shocked the hell out of me. (Generally the worst I had personally seen was rewritten resumes that outright lied. Hint, it's a bad sign when you ask the candidate about something on their resume and they ask to see the resume that was sent to you.)


This happened to me. I was attending an interview and the interviewer obviously expected me to have considerable experience with software I had never used. When I told the interviewer this he was surprised, as the CV he had for me showed 5 years experience. I gave him a copy of my CV and we compared them. There were several additions to make it look as if I was a good fit for a job I had no hope of performing well in. We ended the interview on good terms, agreeing that neither of us would use the agency again.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 11:48 • by Nexzus
414112 in reply to 414100
gramie:
I worked with a Chinese woman whose husband was a professor at our local university. She had a Computer Science degree from this university, but on the job she was shockingly incapable. Aside from almost nonexistent programming and computer skills, her spoken and written English were dismal, and I concluded that her husband must have done most (if not all) of the work for her degree. I can't figure out how she passed the exams.


*Precursor: I live in Vancouver

When I was in school, exam proctors were allowed to check for ID if there was any case of possible fraudulent identity. The fact that it was a policy made me think if it was ever a real big problem at some point.

With a name something like 'Xiang Chan' and a bad photo on ID showing an Asian with glasses and short-cropped black hair, I can see how your anecdote could have come to fruition.

Shit, I remember they had to gender test some Chinese Olympic gymnasts.

/Yes, I'm an admitted racist. You try spending time around these people. I'm a fuckin' minority in my own country, and my family's been here for 20 generations.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 11:49 • by Matt Westwood
414113 in reply to 414109
ZoomST:
¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL:
This is why conslutting agencies have such a hard-on [...]
^this +1
MightyM:
¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL:
Anyhow, being that I have no love for Microsoft crap, and especially all the obscure flavors of .doc files that change with every major release, I submit in .rtf format saved from OS X's TextEdit. It lets them get their fingers in it without me having to use a proprietary binary format for text. "I can't believe it's not rancid butter!"
Um, MS Office hasn't been using a "proprietary binary format" since 2007.
...that doesn't mean the conslutting agencies switched to MS-Word 2007. You could be amazed to find some are still using MS-Word 98 happily, destroying your carefully formatted doc.
I usually submit in PDF, then when some agent asks for a MS-Word formatted doc, I use a fancy export function that some suites have -- given that "export" function may or may not work well.


Mine's written in LaTeX. Then I print it out in pdf format. If I'm asked to produce a version written in Word, I say, "No." There is an adequate number of recruitment agencies which accept this.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 12:03 • by DrPepper
Well, what do you expect? These people make money when the candidate gets hired, period. Their only interest is in getting that person placed; they don't care about the needs of the candidate or the needs of the company.

Chances are that the candidate will never use that agency again in any case. Odds are, with the number of agencies out there, that the agency will never do business with the company again. And, I'm guessing that the actual agent moves around from place to place every six months.

All that comes down to -- the agent is perfectly willing to commit fraud, screw over the candidate and the company, because it just doesn't matter to him.

Contrast that to where I work now -- I'm a full time employee of the consulting firm; and the reputation of the company is built on the quality of the consultants that work for the firm. When we send a consultant out on an interview, the company and the consultant are already certain that consultant has all the skills required for the job.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 12:17 • by Paul Neumann (unregistered)
414116 in reply to 414098
operagost:
MPD.
Which MPD?

My favorite is Mouse Phenome Database. Are you suggesting that the applicant is a genetically modified super rodent?

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 12:25 • by Klimax (unregistered)
414117 in reply to 414092
¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL:
Doppleganger:
(Generally the worst I had personally seen was rewritten resumes that outright lied. Hint, it's a bad sign when you ask the candidate about something on their resume and they ask to see the resume that was sent to you.)
This is why conslutting agencies have such a hard-on for wanting your resume "in Word format". It's so they can tinker with it. Some just want to slap their own branding on top of it, but some want to, shall we say, "zoom and enhance" it.

Always bring at least three paper copies of the original version of your resume to the interview, if for no reason other than to cover your ass when they ask you about something that got stuffed into the resume without your knowledge.

Anyhow, being that I have no love for Microsoft crap, and especially all the obscure flavors of .doc files that change with every major release, I submit in .rtf format saved from OS X's TextEdit. It lets them get their fingers in it without me having to use a proprietary binary format for text. "I can't believe it's not rancid butter!"


You might want to check who created RTF...

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 12:49 • by hank (unregistered)
414119 in reply to 414112
Nexzus:
I live in Vancouver ... I'm a fuckin' minority in my own country.
Oh, so you're living in abject poverty on a desolate reserve set aside for you by a conquering, imperialist nation? Well, I guess your rage is at least understandable then, even if somewhat misguided.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 12:55 • by chubertdev
414120 in reply to 414092
¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL:
Always bring at least three paper copies of the original version of your resume to the interview, if for no reason other than to cover your ass when they ask you about something that got stuffed into the resume without your knowledge.


I usually bring five. It's always fun to compare and contrast.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 13:10 • by eViLegion
414123 in reply to 414112
Nexzus:
I live in Vancouver
...snip...
my family's been here for 20 generations.


Is your family native American, or from European settlers?

Because the first Europeans set foot in the Vancouver area around 1790, so if you're European, the women in your family will have had to had their children at an average age of 11 or 12 to be able to squeeze 20 generations into the time that has elapsed since then.

Does your family have a rich tradition of child abuse?

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 13:10 • by Al H. (unregistered)
I once had a similar situation, except the code submitted, and the experience claimed, was *mine*. My HR director asked me for my input on a resume she received and I was able to show her the code in Source Safe. Little Iranian weasel.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 13:17 • by eViLegion
414125 in reply to 414124
Al H.:
I once had a similar situation, except the code submitted, and the experience claimed, was *mine*. My HR director asked me for my input on a resume she received and I was able to show her the code in Source Safe. Little Iranian weasel.


I'm not sure I understand... how are her stature and nationality (and I suppose, species) relevant?

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 13:22 • by abitmol (unregistered)
414126 in reply to 414093
1/OOXML is not totally open. It's full of blob. There are even function that are supposed to "act like Word 2007" cause even MS don't understand what MS Word does.
2/MS doesn't implement the EMACs version of OOXML. So it's still undocumented.
3/Please try "ooxml iso controversy" in a search engine. You'll understand how it became a "standard".

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 13:36 • by RangerNS (unregistered)
414127 in reply to 414124
Source Safe


Hold on a second there. You managed to get something out of Source Safe?

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 14:23 • by DCRoss
414128 in reply to 414116
Paul Neumann:
operagost:
MPD.
Which MPD?

Mandatory Pun Day.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 14:35 • by chubertdev
Multiple Personality Disorder


Mandatory Pun Day is every Friday

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 14:41 • by Anomaly (unregistered)
414130 in reply to 414129
chubertdev:
Multiple Personality Disorder


Mandatory Pun Day is every Friday


Its DID - Dissociative Identity Disorder now.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 14:42 • by xaade (unregistered)
414131 in reply to 414119
hank:
Nexzus:
I live in Vancouver ... I'm a fuckin' minority in my own country.
Oh, so you're living in abject poverty on a desolate reserve set aside for you by a conquering, imperialist nation? Well, I guess your rage is at least understandable then, even if somewhat misguided.


If you say a worse issue makes previous issues non-existent, then we need to compare to the Africans in Chad.

You could be living in abject poverty under constant threat of death by the Muslim countries surrounding you.

So yeah, no need to get in a fuss about civil rights.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 14:44 • by xaade (unregistered)
414132 in reply to 414130
Anomaly:
chubertdev:
Multiple Personality Disorder


Mandatory Pun Day is every Friday


Its DID - Dissociative Identity Disorder now.


That actually sounds more accurate.

He doesn't have multiple personalities. He doesn't suddenly become a wine enthusiast, then decide he'll be a bum, and is aware of this at all times.

It's two identities not aware of each other.

Re: The Old Switch n' Bait

2013-08-01 14:45 • by J. Strange (unregistered)
414133 in reply to 414084
You gals must be synced up.
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