• Dave (unregistered) in reply to JS

    Hey, that should be the ultimate goal of high level language designers everywhere. I'm sure there are many Ruby programmers out there just like this guy ;)

  • (cs) in reply to TraumaPony
    TraumaPony:
    SlyEcho:
    Do not advocate the use of languages other than English in variable names. So that I wouldn't have to figure out what "StavSkladuZmeny", "strUzivatelskeJmeno" and "strUzivatelskeHeslo" mean (in a web service I recently integrated).
    Not everyone speaks English.

    This is a world-wide WTF.

  • (cs) in reply to OtherMichael
    VBs are good for rapid prototyping/quick dev with a GUI. They don't exist to implement a multi-platform server.

    You must be new around here. VBs are great for making suitabley enterprisey, inefficient middleware flann souffles.

  • (cs) in reply to apetrelli
    apetrelli:
    In fact I have the opposite problem: I have to justify what I do with computers as a programmer. What I mean is this: 1) No programming-illiterate people understands the difference from using a program and making one. This kind of people usually think that Word has been created by God. 2) As a computer expert, you should usually know how to repair a TV-set or a HiFi.

    My dear god, I am not the only one? Ever since I knew what the "any key" on the computer was I was expected to do all the set up of any electronic for anyone in my family. I said "but I just pressed a button on the computer", and they said "yea but thats more than we can understand"... I was 12, and thus the torture began!

  • Anonymous (unregistered)
    If you want to get anything done use VB
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA!!!
  • SomeCoder (unregistered) in reply to dlikhten
    dlikhten:
    apetrelli:
    In fact I have the opposite problem: I have to justify what I do with computers as a programmer. What I mean is this: 1) No programming-illiterate people understands the difference from using a program and making one. This kind of people usually think that Word has been created by God. 2) As a computer expert, you should usually know how to repair a TV-set or a HiFi.

    My dear god, I am not the only one? Ever since I knew what the "any key" on the computer was I was expected to do all the set up of any electronic for anyone in my family. I said "but I just pressed a button on the computer", and they said "yea but thats more than we can understand"... I was 12, and thus the torture began!

    I'd really like to know how to combat this problem. Because I "work with computers" I'm expected to know how to use every stupid application that my mother wants to install on her computer. When I tell her "I don't know how to use that program." I get "Well you can figure it out better than I can!" as a response.

    I'm happy to help when I can but there is such a thing as being taken advantage of.

  • cthulhu (unregistered) in reply to mjmcinto
    mjmcinto:
    Phleabo:
    cthulhu:
    Da' Man:
    Just out of curiosity: how would you implement a Singleton pattern in VB4?

    VB4 doesn't allow mistakes like that.

    Sadly, there's a bit of a good point there. Of course, that's probably outweighed by the countless thousands of other mistakes VB4 will let you make.

    Like "on error resume next". That is just sends my blood pressure soaring when I see code like that. And no, I'm not a VB programmer. I'm a C/C++/C# developer.

    Then you should be used to "on error resume next" but with the more trendy name "Try / Catch"

  • (cs) in reply to fred flintstone
    fred flintstone:
    "Create football stadium and football players. Start the game when user presses spacebar. Make players have red shirts and white socks."

    one day this will happen. that's what I'm aiming for anyway. proper natural language programming. tasty!

    Works fine for me. Is your Holodeck broken?

  • (cs) in reply to cthulhu
    cthulhu:
    VB is exactly what I would have pointed him at (VB 4 probably).

    I know I am only seemingly provoking people but getting these beginners into VB (althought vb.net or c# would work) is exactly the quick fix they are looking for. They want little programs to work easily on their windows machines.

    VB is fairly quick and dirty to getting simple windows GUI programs up and running. They don't need to be bothered with the "complexity" of other languages.

  • (cs)

    That's a well known fact that "non IT" people think softwares work like magic.

    My mom was surprised too learn that her karaoke system wouldn't listen to her and give her a score, even without any microphone plugged in...

  • (cs) in reply to SomeCoder
    SomeCoder:
    dlikhten:
    apetrelli:
    In fact I have the opposite problem: I have to justify what I do with computers as a programmer. What I mean is this: 1) No programming-illiterate people understands the difference from using a program and making one. This kind of people usually think that Word has been created by God. 2) As a computer expert, you should usually know how to repair a TV-set or a HiFi.

    My dear god, I am not the only one? Ever since I knew what the "any key" on the computer was I was expected to do all the set up of any electronic for anyone in my family. I said "but I just pressed a button on the computer", and they said "yea but thats more than we can understand"... I was 12, and thus the torture began!

    I'd really like to know how to combat this problem. Because I "work with computers" I'm expected to know how to use every stupid application that my mother wants to install on her computer. When I tell her "I don't know how to use that program." I get "Well you can figure it out better than I can!" as a response.

    I'm happy to help when I can but there is such a thing as being taken advantage of.

    Oh and Yes i know why your computer is running slow, you download everything a flashy web ad tells you to and every toolbar you can get your hands on. Yes i know the easy fix, but you won't like it ... backup your files and reinstall.

    But I can't say this to my grandmother, she's too nice and her cookies are delicious.

  • (cs) in reply to cthulhu
    cthulhu:
    dorkquemada:
    elaborate please

    I was very clear, but see my next post

    You were indeed very clear in proving your ignorance.

  • macawm (unregistered)

    My favorite reply to "Are you good with computers?" or anything else resembling that is: "Yes, as long as it is not running Windows."

  • Ubersoldat (unregistered) in reply to macawm
    macawm:
    My favorite reply to "Are you good with computers?" or anything else resembling that is: "Yes, as long as it is not running Windows."

    Yes, you can't imagine how many times I've dodged spending a sunday afternoon cleaning Windows machines with this excuse: hmmm... sorry, I use Linux so...

    Even at my job if a computer gets infected I don't touch it, that's why there are Windows guys around, plenty if I may.

    Just for this I love the penguin, now if for some reason Linux goes mainstream and people start bugging with it too I'll migrate myself to BSD or something else... I hear Mac's are pretty.

  • DL (unregistered) in reply to JS
    JS:
    him: Oh, I thought I would write something like: "Create football stadium and football players. Start the game when user presses spacebar. Make players have red shirts and white socks."

    I blame Star Trek. This is EXACTLY how the holodeck works (well, except for the spacebar). The average person's perception of science and technology comes from TV and movies, and this can therefore present a very skewed view of how things work.

  • Anonymous (unregistered) in reply to anne
    anne:
    oh this makes me so mad! Is it OK to call these people "stupid" or do we have to say that they just don't understand computers but maybe they are smart in different areas? I have quite a few friends who are very smart in the liberal arts
    Basically, that's how you define stupid.
    "Create football stadium and football players. Start the game when user presses spacebar. Make players have red shirts and white socks."

    one day this will happen. that's what I'm aiming for anyway. proper natural language programming. tasty!

    Yes, and it will require 5 years to study, because in the future life will get so comfortable that everyone will mentally degrade into a freaking toddler, and computers will require the intellectual effort equivalent of slamming your balls into the wall to operate. Don't believe me? Look at the buzzword du jour 2007 - Web 2.0, that spawned website with as little text as possible, huge buttons and pastel colors. All for the purpose of attracting impressionable retards. And the scary part is that it works.

  • (cs) in reply to cthulhu
    cthulhu:
    Java is named after coffee, VB is named practically. One is only marketing the other is actual programming. If you want to get anything done use VB
    So you choose your programming languages based on how they are (or are not) marketed?
  • Denzien (unregistered) in reply to Jay

    I don't know about you, but I like my screens Rectangular.

    I just love how giving my mother-in-law computer directives requires the qualifications "with the mouse, move the cursor to the bottom left corner of the screen".

    When asked if I'm "good with computers", I've been reduced to sarcastic remarks such as "As a matter of fact, I'm a computer God." Odds are, if they've asked the question, they're likely to believe me for at least a little while.

  • Shinobu (unregistered) in reply to mrprogguy

    I'd rather take my Java history lessons from Wikipedia, thank you very much. Also, your rant in no way supports the point.

  • Anonymous (unregistered)
    I hear Mac's are pretty.
    (METAPHORICAL MEANING ALERT) Well so are all the dumb chicks in college.
  • James (unregistered)

    RE: the VB versus Java bickering... I'm interested to know who's defending the VB side. Growing up in coder culture, I always considered VB to be the "simplistic" end of the language scale:

    (from "simple" to "serious") Crayons... markers... watercolors... oil paint Airsoft... BB gun... 22 rifle... elephant gun MacOS (pre-X)... Windows... *NIX VB... Pascal... Java/C#... C/C++... assembly

    It's not that the left side of the scale is worse, it's just better suited to less-demanding applications. You wouldn't write a tens-of-thousands LOC "enterprise" application in VB (OK, I know some who would, but I'm using the sane/intelligent form of "you" here) just like you wouldn't go rhino hunting with a BB gun.

    Perhaps I'm missing something where cthulu is calling Java "the opposite of programming", or where other posters are calling Design Patterns "not a feature" -- in my experience, when you introduce either of them, it's adding order in a chaotic world, not the other way around. Maybe if you're just writing a VBA script to catalog your Magic cards, that's the language best suited for the task. But when you're writing "Real World" software, Java or C# or even C++ with Design Patterns (used correctly!!!) can encourage better, more maintainable code.

    Or is my understanding of The Way Things Work itself a WTF?

  • jorn (unregistered) in reply to apetrelli

    You do realize that, two weeks from now, your brother-in-law will be a Web Developer and have several gigs designing websites for folks. You do know this, right?

  • brian (unregistered) in reply to Theo

    Oh yeah, my favorite thing to hear at a family function is: "Oh yeah Brian does computers, ask him". They have trouble realizing that I am a software developer and have no clue why their AOL mail doesn't work anymore. Usually when I tell them to call AOL, they drop it.

  • (cs) in reply to Theo

    Yeah, "can you program my VCR..." ;-)

  • James (unregistered)

    I forgot to respond to the actual original post! I was going to call BS until I saw all the follow-up responses saying they had similar experiences. I have a lot of non-technical people in the family. I would need both hands to count the number of times I've walked my parents (both in their late 60s) through the process of attaching a file to their emails, and I still think they wouldn't be able to do it on their own. But even they don't think (as far as I know) that you can program a computer in natural language.

    Jeff Atwood (familiar to many of you, I'm sure) wrote something about how people are fundamentally "wired" to understand how computers, or they aren't, and that seems to be the way things work:

    I assume the problem discussed in the OP is related.

  • Shinobu (unregistered) in reply to James

    I'm kind of in the habit of defending all sides. For personal things I mostly use VB because it helps me get done what I want, fast. But I know several languages and when I start something I tend to use whatever I think will get the job done fastest and easiest. And apparently I have a knack for predicting this correctly, which is why I've mostly seen the positive sides of languages and thus tend to defend them all, when asked. Although really, discussing anything, particularly the noted religious topics, in an online forum will just lead to flamewars and trolls...

  • morry (unregistered)

    In explaining programming, I like to use the "tying your shoes" analogy. It goes something like this.

    them: what is programming? me: it's like you telling me how to tie a shoe. them: ?? me: let me show you. removes shoe, unties it me: tell me how to tie a shoe. remember - I'm a computer. them: take the laces in your hands. me: (* grab both laces in both hands, in a fist ) them: no, one lace, one hand me: ( grabs left with right, right with left, still in fist *) them: no, grab the left with the left hand, right with the right. and them with between the thumb and forefinger me: .... and so on

    you can be really irritating with this and make them define verbs and nouns like "grab", "take" and lace and stuff. eventually they begin to realize that specifying HOW to do something of any complexity is really really hard.

    as an aside, if this person had the audacity to tell me I'm not a good programmer because I can't explain it to them, I'd be so pissed off. What an asshat.

  • (cs) in reply to Da' Man
    Da' Man:
    cthulhu:
    Java is named after coffee, VB is named practically. One is only marketing the other is actual programming. If you want to get anything done use VB
    Just out of curiosity: how would you implement a Singleton pattern in VB4?
    Just out of curiosity: why would you want to implement a Singleton "pattern" in anything?

    Go on, I'm curious.

  • (cs) in reply to TraumaPony
    TraumaPony:
    SlyEcho:
    Do not advocate the use of languages other than English in variable names. So that I wouldn't have to figure out what "StavSkladuZmeny", "strUzivatelskeJmeno" and "strUzivatelskeHeslo" mean (in a web service I recently integrated).
    Not everyone speaks English.

    Dude, I had to do some conversions of a propriatary access database, with no notion of foreign keys or datatypes (some parts vendor in some niche market, you were supposed to view the database through the cd-rom, but the customer wanted it on his pocketpc). Imagine a database of parts and alternatives and bill of materials and pricing in danish.

    I had to look at the strings in the exe to find queries, not knowing what parameters where passed to it etc to even get a grasp on what was what.

    I'd have a better friday evening if noone reminded me... :)

  • (cs) in reply to belzebuth
    belzebuth:
    That's a well known fact that "non IT" people think softwares work like magic.

    My mom was surprised too learn that her karaoke system wouldn't listen to her and give her a score, even without any microphone plugged in...

    Sadly, that's nothing to do with IT at all. That's simply because your mom is an ignorant cretin.

    Incidentally, I believe you may have spelled your moniker wrong; although perhaps it's in the genes...

  • (cs) in reply to cthulhu
    cthulhu:
    mjmcinto:
    Phleabo:
    cthulhu:
    Da' Man:
    Just out of curiosity: how would you implement a Singleton pattern in VB4?

    VB4 doesn't allow mistakes like that.

    Sadly, there's a bit of a good point there. Of course, that's probably outweighed by the countless thousands of other mistakes VB4 will let you make.

    Like "on error resume next". That is just sends my blood pressure soaring when I see code like that. And no, I'm not a VB programmer. I'm a C/C++/C# developer.

    Then you should be used to "on error resume next" but with the more trendy name "Try / Catch"

    If the code doesn't handle the exception that was thrown, and nothing is done except ignoring it, yes, that makes my blood boil too. However, the try catch at least implies that the code will attempt to handle the issue, rather than just say "huh, there was an error...oh well, I'll just continue and pay no attention to it".

  • (cs)

    some non-programmer asking a programmer "how do i make my computer do something like Halo?" is like me asking Eric Johnson "how do i make this guitar thingy sound like 'Cliffs of Dover'?"

  • Aidan (unregistered)

    I would have directed the guy to http://www.microsoft.com/events/series/msdnvisualcsharp.aspx where he could learn C# and game programming at the same time. It even covers the XNA framework that would allow him to develop a game for the 360.

  • Shill (unregistered) in reply to JS
    JS:
    him: Oh, I thought I would write something like: "Create football stadium and football players. Start the game when user presses spacebar. Make players have red shirts and white socks."

    Typical newbie mistake, forgetting the pants; this is why programming should be left to the professionals.

  • Dirac (unregistered) in reply to JS
    JS:
    him: Oh, I thought I would write something like: "Create football stadium and football players. Start the game when user presses spacebar. Make players have red shirts and white socks."
    Maybe one day it'll be this easy.
  • TadGhostal (unregistered)

    This is why they make shirts for us to wear like this one...

    http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/frustrations/388b/

  • rycamor (unregistered) in reply to suzilou

    A yes... I have spent many a night trying to get my guitar to sound like Eric Johnson's, and my fingers to actually play those notes.

    But of course, Guitar Hero will now make everyone think all you have to do is move your right hand to the rhythm, and presto! A solo comes out.

  • masonReloaded (unregistered) in reply to Raven
    Raven:
    Alex:
    Having taught CS to a wide range of students, I've found that when I ran into this sort of "ambition" that the best way to put it in perspective is to tell them that a team of programmers spent years making Halo. Microsoft spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on it. They generally understand that it isn't going to be "point-and-click" after that.

    Captcha: Damn um (thought that was particularly funny)

    They spent more than hundreds of thousands. :) Halo 3 cost $30 million to make. Halo 2 cost $20 million (they reportedly also spent that again in marketing costs).

    Not entirely sure about the first one, do not think it was up there with the others, I think it is somewhere about the 5 million mark

    An analogy I would use to explain to people is that you can show someone how to operate a video camera in about 10-20 minutes, but to film Spider-Man 3 would take years of training, hundreds of people and millions of dollars. Similarly, I can teach you how to write a simple program in 10-20 minutes - writing Halo 3 would take years of training, hundreds of people and millions of dollars.

  • wesley0042 (unregistered) in reply to Aidan
    Aidan:
    I would have directed the guy to http://www.microsoft.com/events/series/msdnvisualcsharp.aspx where he could learn C# and game programming at the same time. It even covers the XNA framework that would allow him to develop a game for the 360.

    Yeah, we had a Microsoft "evangelist" from CSU Fullerton come to our C++ class to show us "how to write Pong for the XBox in 15 minutes" using these cool new Microsoft tools.

    And he did, sort of. What he did was take a template, and then copy and paste in all the code from a text file opened in Notepad. Great help; thanks, guy.

  • C_Boo (unregistered) in reply to SpasticWeasel
    SpasticWeasel:
    No, it means that he's probably an MBA
    Wow, random trolls abound today. While many of those attracted to a programming are misogynist, semi-literate basement dwelling social misfits, there are others in the field who have side interests like bathing, occasionally breathing fresh air, and (in some cases) pursuing additional degrees.
  • Heretic (unregistered) in reply to Mythokia

    There is no right answer to this question. You could be good at cleaning computers for all you know.

  • Militis Sanctus (unregistered) in reply to Jay

    That's hilarious. When I was in college (I'm a recent graduate, in the work force now) and would go home for a break, the first thing my dad would say to me after "Howdy" was something along the lines of "The computer is running pretty slow...I need you to take a look at it."

    After running a virus scan and adware scan, cleaning out his Temporary Internet Files, and so on, I came to realize that my dad can USE a computer, but he doesn't necessarily know what he's doing. The scans generally turned up dozens if not hundreds of viruses/adwares, and when all that didn't help, I opened up the computer. Keep in mind it was a couple years old at the time...but all the hardware was covered in a layer of dust at least half an inch thick.

    O_o

  • Gio (unregistered) in reply to apetrelli

    My favorite is when someone describes my job as "he works with computers." Isn't that just about everyone these days?

  • Not a troll (unregistered) in reply to C_Boo
    C_Boo:
    SpasticWeasel:
    No, it means that he's probably an MBA
    Wow, random trolls abound today. While many of those attracted to a programming are misogynist, semi-literate basement dwelling social misfits, there are others in the field who have side interests like bathing, occasionally breathing fresh air, and (in some cases) pursuing additional degrees.

    Keep moving along nothing to read here certainly not a troll about stereotypical programmer traits...this is so not a troll

  • Chris (unregistered)

    I've had similar questions from people who thought they could just ask the computer for what they wanted in English. Some of that isn't terribly surprising.

    What DID surprise me, though, was when half-way through a programming class in Pascal, one of the students in the class was actually writing a program in the LAB in English rather than Pascal, even though the student had handed in several working Pascal programs prior to this. I briefly saw the screen; it looked similar to:

    "Please make the value of variable X equal 5" "Multiply X by 100" "Output X to the screen" ... etc.

    And the student had the balls to ASK THE PROFESSOR why the program wouldn't compile or run. The professor, having been educated in Oxford being who he was, looked at the screen and then walked away without uttering a word.

    The student dropped, and I think that was the right answer. That SAME student is now an ELECTRICAL ENGINEER. I haven't worked with the person but looks good on paper.

  • Fortyseven (unregistered) in reply to Konamiman
    void main() { CreateFootballStadiumAndFootballPlayers(); StartTheGameWhenUserPressesSpacebar(); MakePlayersHaveRedShirtsAndWhiteSocks(); }

    Oh yes, you will have to define these three methods an put some code on them, but that's a minor issue. X-D

    We'll fix it in a patch later after it ships.

  • (cs) in reply to WPlinge
    WPlinge:
    He created a text file with the words "Morph the screen into something cool" and couldn't figure out how to run it
    I did almost exactly the same thing when I was 7 or 8!

    I once tried "hack into [friend]'s computer and play [video game]" from my TI-99/4A. Sadly I already understood simple TI BASIC, so I can't claim complete cluelessness (though I was young). I remember theorizing that it didn't work because his computer was an Apple.

  • some curmudgeon (unregistered)

    This is why some gamers should never, ever be permitted to run heavy machinery, and instead should be forced to be beaten with an empty plastic soda bottle while repeatedly hearing the sentence "Life is not Star Trek."

  • Andrew (unregistered) in reply to mrprogguy
    mrprogguy:
    What I suspect, however, is that the dude what said "Java is almost the opposite of true programming" is actually one of those nutjob functional programmers, not a procedural programmer. They always say things like that, since there's little actual "real world" work done with their languages, which are doomed to remain as little more than toys for university professors and eccentrics of all stripes.

    There, did I clear that up for you?

    Functional programming has many "real world" applications. You just don't realize where functional programming is used.

    Most programmers associate LISP with functional programming. So, let's compare it to other software "real world" people use.

    Computer Algebra & Calculus systems, like Matlab, Maple, etc., solve basic integrals by pattern matching. LISP did this since a 1967 MIT student's project; this later became MACSYMA.

    Surely, SQL is not a university toy language. SQL database queries behave like functional language searches. Look at how this SELECT is evaluated from left to right. Each step is a function call that filters the result-set.

    SELECT A, COUNT(A) FROM TAB1 WHERE A < 35 GROUP BY A HAVING COUNT(A) > 2;

    The earliest relational databases, or knowledge trees, were written in LISP. I believe that SELECT query planning follows steps similar to how LISP spans a tree search. Both use heuristics to improve the searching.

  • Mark (unregistered)

    In high school (mid 80's), I had a computer that was the size and shape of a hand-held calculator, and had a display that could scroll one line at the time, and had built in BASIC. It was pretty cool for it's day.

    I had two guys approach me and asked me if I could "program pussy" on it.

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