Epoch Fail

  • RandomGuy 2013-07-09 06:48
    TRWTF is AM and PM instead of 24h time ...
  • Pete 2013-07-09 06:49
    Brillant!

    All the cool kids are using EHDST* format now.


    *Evening Hour Decrement Standard Time
  • Anon 2013-07-09 06:54
    That's actually what I thought, first.
  • rob 2013-07-09 06:57
    If this has to be done at all in PHP, then the code should be something like

    function getTimeFromISODateTime($date) {
    list ($day, $time) = split (" ", $date);
    list ($hour, $min, $sec) = split (":", $time);

    /* assumes that provided value shows time as military */
    $ampm = "AM";
    if if ($hour => 12) {
    $ampm = "PM";
    }
    if ($hour > 12) {
    $hour = 24 - $hour;
    }

    if (strlen($hour) == 1) $hour = "0" . $hour;

    return $hour . ":" . $min . ":" . $sec . " " . $ampm;
    }
  • Mike5 2013-07-09 06:57
    Also, what about hour '0' ?
  • cpradio 2013-07-09 07:00
    rob:
    If this has to be done at all in PHP, then the code should be something like

    function getTimeFromISODateTime($date) {
    list ($day, $time) = split (" ", $date);
    list ($hour, $min, $sec) = split (":", $time);

    /* assumes that provided value shows time as military */
    $ampm = "AM";
    if if ($hour => 12) {
    $ampm = "PM";
    }
    if ($hour > 12) {
    $hour = 24 - $hour;
    }

    if (strlen($hour) == 1) $hour = "0" . $hour;

    return $hour . ":" . $min . ":" . $sec . " " . $ampm;
    }


    I think you missed the critical issue here, 24-$hour is entirely wrong! Consider 1 PM (13), 24-13 = 11. It should have been $hour = $hour - 12;
  • Sam 2013-07-09 07:03
    This is in fact trivial to do in PHP in a perfectly sensible way:

    function getTimeFromISODateTime($date) {
    $datetime = new DateTime($date);
    return $datetime->format('g:i:s A');
    }

    This assumes that counting the afternoon hours from 1 to 12 is desired behaviour.
  • TheIrritainer 2013-07-09 07:14
    rob:
    If this has to be done at all in PHP, then the code should be something like

    function getTimeFromISODateTime($date) {
    list ($day, $time) = split (" ", $date);
    list ($hour, $min, $sec) = split (":", $time);

    /* assumes that provided value shows time as military */
    $ampm = "AM";
    if if ($hour => 12) {
    $ampm = "PM";
    }
    if ($hour > 12) {
    $hour = 24 - $hour;
    }

    if (strlen($hour) == 1) $hour = "0" . $hour;

    return $hour . ":" . $min . ":" . $sec . " " . $ampm;
    }


    sigh, the error appears due to $hour = 24 - $hour. 24 - 13 = 11....

    $hour = $hour - 12;

    But still horrible use of PHP..

  • Zagyg 2013-07-09 07:14
    Ode To A Small Lump Of Green Putty I Found In My Armpit One Midsummer Morning
  • Bring Back TopCod3r 2013-07-09 07:15
    True, but thanks to rob, I am now also aware of the lesser WTF of it showing 12 AM not 12 PM, and also of course 00 AM not 12 AM.
  • FragFrog 2013-07-09 07:16
    Sam:
    This is in fact trivial to do in PHP in a perfectly sensible way:

    function getTimeFromISODateTime($date) {
    $datetime = new DateTime($date);
    return $datetime->format('g:i:s A');
    }

    This assumes that counting the afternoon hours from 1 to 12 is desired behaviour.

    Thank you. Some sanity, at last.

    And for those wondering whether this is some new-fangled technology not available at the time: the DateTime class was only formally introduced with PHP5.2, but you can do the exact same thing with strtotime() and date(), which have been around for a lot longer.
  • someone 2013-07-09 07:17
    Developer days feel like a roller coaster...
  • Hannes 2013-07-09 07:17
    Mike5:
    Also, what about hour '0' ?


    The code says: If the length of the hour is just one letter (ie '9') then add a 0 to it (ie '09'). Just a formatting issue.

    But of course, TRWTF is PHP.
  • Patrys 2013-07-09 07:30
    Hannes:
    Mike5:
    Also, what about hour '0' ?


    The code says: If the length of the hour is just one letter (ie '9') then add a 0 to it (ie '09'). Just a formatting issue.


    Nope, in 24-hour format midnight is in fact hour zero. Which means that the code in question shows midnight as 0AM and noon as 12AM.
  • chipdale 2013-07-09 07:36
    12 noon is neither am nor pm. The m means meridian (i.e. midday/noon) The A means ante (before) and the P means post (after). So 12 noon is neither before noon nor after noon, it IS noon.

    Similarly for midnight. Is it midnight this morning or midnight tonight?

    http://www.npl.co.uk/science-technology/time-frequency/time/faqs/is-midnight-12-a.m.-or-12-p.m.-(faq-time)
  • Shutterbug 2013-07-09 07:39
    Zagyg:
    Ode To A Small Lump Of Green Putty I Found In My Armpit One Midsummer Morning


    +1 for the vogon poetry!
  • Bring Back TopCod3r 2013-07-09 07:41
    chipdale:
    12 noon is neither am nor pm. The m means meridian (i.e. midday/noon) The A means ante (before) and the P means post (after). So 12 noon is neither before noon nor after noon, it IS noon.

    Similarly for midnight. Is it midnight this morning or midnight tonight?

    http://www.npl.co.uk/science-technology/time-frequency/time/faqs/is-midnight-12-a.m.-or-12-p.m.-(faq-time)


    Well caught, but 12:00:01 is definitely Post Meridian.
  • Geoff 2013-07-09 07:45
    Never done any PHP myself but I would expect there would be some data/time library functions that can convert a unix time value to a string in the desired format? Seems like a pretty common need that would part of something like PHP
  • someone 2013-07-09 07:45
    It has nothing to do with Meridians. Meridiem, on the other hand, is like Latin for Midday
  • phord 2013-07-09 07:51
    It is assumed that 12:00:00 does not represent the precise moment of the meridian, but some milliseconds thereafter. So, 12:00:01PM is as correct as 12:00:00PM, meridian be damned. You're right that it still can cause confusion as there is no standard. Perhaps the code should always add one minute to the time if ever out finds out to be "12:00". :-)
  • TheLatinPig 2013-07-09 07:54
    if you want to nitpick, someone, the Latin word would be like meridies, meridiem being like the accusative form.
  • Sam 2013-07-09 08:08
    TheLatinPig:
    if you want to nitpick, someone, the Latin word would be like meridies, meridiem being like the accusative form.


    Although in "AM" the word would indeed by meridiem, since ante takes the accusative.
  • Steve The Cynic 2013-07-09 08:09
    TheLatinPig:
    if you want to nitpick, someone, the Latin word would be like meridies, meridiem being like the accusative form.

    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock:

    The 12-hour clock is a time convention in which the 24 hours of the day are divided into two periods:[1] a.m. (from the Latin ante meridiem, meaning "before midday") and p.m. (post meridiem, "after midday").[2] Each period consists of 12 hours numbered: 12 (acting as zero),[3] 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11.


    In the same vein: http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/times.cfm
    Are noon and midnight referred to as 12 a.m. or 12 p.m.?
    This is a tricky question because 12 a.m. and 12 p.m. are ambiguous and should not be used.

    To illustrate this, consider that "a.m." and "p.m." are abbreviations for "ante meridiem" and "post meridiem," which mean "before noon" and "after noon," respectively. Since noon is neither before noon nor after noon, a designation of either a.m. or p.m. is incorrect. Also, midnight is both twelve hours before noon and twelve hours after noon.

    It is fair to say, however, that the shortest measurable duration after noon should be designated as p.m. For example, it would be applicable for a digital clock changing from 11:59:59 a.m. to 12:00:00 to indicate p.m. as soon as it the 12:00 appears, and not delay the display of the p.m. by a minute, or even a second. The same is true for midnight, but there is an added issue of which day midnight refers to (see below).

    Hours of operation for a business or other references to a block of time should also follow this designation rule.
    For example, a business might be open on Saturdays from 8 a.m. to noon or weekends from 3:30 p.m. until midnight.
    Is midnight the end of a day or the beginning of a day?
    When someone refers to "midnight tonight" or "midnight last night" the reference of time is obvious. However, if a date/time is referred to as "at midnight on Friday, October 20th" the intention could be either midnight the beginning of the day or midnight at the end of the day.

    To avoid ambiguity, specification of an event as occurring on a particular day at 11:59 p.m. or 12:01 a.m. is a good idea, especially legal documents such as contracts and insurance policies. Another option would be to use 24-hour clock, using the designation of 0000 to refer to midnight at the beginning of a given day (or date) and 2400 to designate the end of a given day (or date).


    So I'd say that the evidence lies in favour of "meridiem" regardless of the grammatical correctness of the word in this context. And of 12:00:00 m being technically correct for the infinitessimal period at exactly noon, but for practical purposes there is no point in doing it. Imagine an LCD clock - in the time that the "m" takes to appear, it will have become invalid, so don't bother. And for specifying "noon", since there is a hypothecated quantum granularity of time, we can assert that it probably can never actually be exactly noon, but always a small fraction of a Planck interval before or after, it is always either am or pm.

    Steve The Cynic has spoken. Let it be so.
  • Rollyn01 2013-07-09 08:50
    This is one of the reasons for me that the 24-hour format makes more sense, less ambiguity to work. Then again, It could be that it can never get a good gauge on whether it's morning or evening by looking at a 12-hour clock. Damn summers and winters.


    Captcha: aliquam. I doubt aliquam, I'm not into dudes that way.
  • Landius 2013-07-09 08:56
    You didn't really listen to TheLatinPig.

    "meridies" is the Latin word for "midday", and as usual, we refer to nouns by their nominative form, so this is the one in dictionaries.

    The latin prepositions "ante" and "post", however, force the noun to be in accusative form, which happens to be "meridiem".
    So please don't just cite Wikipedia and claim to have evidence. This is probably TRWTF ;)
  • miko 2013-07-09 08:57
    TRWTF is definitely the murican AM/PM over-complication of it all. Why bother? Why not just give in and do like the rest of the world? The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day. Simple as that.

    Please convert to the metric system already, so we can speak to each other without confusion... "1 inch is 0.083333333 feet" and "1 cup is 0.0625 gallons" who can keep track of those decimal values? How do you even remember if it's 0.0833 or 0.0625?
  • Pippo 2013-07-09 08:58
    RandomGuy:
    TRWTF is AM and PM instead of 24h time ...


    +1

    CAPTCHA: odio again, so it REALLY hates me
  • EatenByAGrue 2013-07-09 09:13
    Zagyg:
    Ode To A Small Lump Of Green Putty I Found In My Armpit One Midsummer Morning


    That's nothing - check out this bit by Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings:

    The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
    They lay. They rotted. They turned
    Around occasionally.
    Bits of flesh dropped off them from
    Time to time.
    And sank into the pool's mire.
    They also smelt a great deal.
  • Franky 2013-07-09 09:15
    q.e.d. US date notation sucks. 24 hour format forever!
  • Anonymous Paranoiac 2013-07-09 09:17
    Geoff:
    Never done any PHP myself but I would expect there would be some date/time library functions that can convert a unix time value to a string in the desired format? Seems like a pretty common need that would part of something like PHP


    FTFY. Also, as Sam pointed out, PHP does have date/time library functions that would have made doing this 'correctly' (I think we can all agree that the only 'correct' date format is the yyyy-mm-dd hh:mm:ss standard) trivial.
  • ¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL 2013-07-09 09:19
    $hour = 24 - $hour;
    Wow. Just wow. It's like Daylight Saving Time, only different! 9pm sunsets in the summer not good enough for you? How about sunny at 11pm all year round!
  • salmiyak lover #0000021 2013-07-09 09:25
    It took me a minute to see it, but when I saw it I could not unsee it.

    I understand what he was going for but man, if youre doing a $shour>12 check you should think to shape your decrement by the same number you're checking against, no?
  • Steve The Cynic 2013-07-09 09:28
    miko:
    TRWTF is definitely the murican AM/PM over-complication of it all. Why bother? Why not just give in and do like the rest of the world? The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day. Simple as that.

    Please convert to the metric system already, so we can speak to each other without confusion... "1 inch is 0.083333333 feet" and "1 cup is 0.0625 gallons" who can keep track of those decimal values? How do you even remember if it's 0.0833 or 0.0625?

    I find it easier to remember 12 inches to the foot and 8 pints to the gallon which combines with 2 cups to the pint to give 16 cups to the gallon.

    Of course, if you are worrying about the conversion between cups and gallons, you're probably doing something wrong. (Notably: why the hell are you measuring cooking ingredients - the normal stuff you measure in cups - in **gallons**?)
  • eViLegion 2013-07-09 09:32
    So time runs forwards for half the day, then backwards for the remainder?

    Nice.
  • eViLegion 2013-07-09 09:34
    EatenByAGrue:
    That's nothing - check out this bit by Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings:

    The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
    They lay. They rotted. They turned
    Around occasionally.
    Bits of flesh dropped off them from
    Time to time.
    And sank into the pool's mire.
    They also smelt a great deal.


    Hey? that's not half bad.
  • derari 2013-07-09 09:47
    eViLegion:
    So time runs forwards for half the day, then backwards for the remainder?

    Nice.

    How else would it be able to start at exactly the same time on the next day? The clocks need to be rewound.
  • 3rd Ferguson 2013-07-09 09:49
    eViLegion:
    EatenByAGrue:
    That's nothing - check out this bit by Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings:

    The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
    They lay. They rotted. They turned
    Around occasionally.
    Bits of flesh dropped off them from
    Time to time.
    And sank into the pool's mire.
    They also smelt a great deal.


    Hey? that's not half bad.


    It's all bad!

    <StatlerAndWaldorf>Meh-heh-heh-heh-heh!</StatlerAndWaldorf>
  • miko 2013-07-09 09:53
    Steve The Cynic:

    Of course, if you are worrying about the conversion between cups and gallons, you're probably doing something wrong. (Notably: why the hell are you measuring cooking ingredients - the normal stuff you measure in cups - in **gallons**?)


    You are right - something is wrong when you measure in cups or gallons ;)
    Different households have different cups - some even have different sized cups for coffee and for tea.

    No, I wouldn't know which to use, I heard there is also a difference between dry and wet ounces, and that fact alone is enough for me to NOT trust those scales.
    I recently saw a graph of how much sugar is in a coke bottle, but the coke bottle volume was measured in ounces (I think) and the amount of sugar in it was measured in cups - how is that in any way relevant to each other? You guys mix your scales all the time, and it is so confusing.

    1 cubic metre of water = 1000 litres = 1000 kilos.
    100 degrees, water turns to gas. 0 degrees, water turns to ice. (under normal pressure)
    Same scale. Always 10 based. Simple. You should try it! :)
  • JC 2013-07-09 09:56
    Steve The Cynic:
    miko:
    TRWTF is definitely the murican AM/PM over-complication of it all. Why bother? Why not just give in and do like the rest of the world? The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day. Simple as that.

    Please convert to the metric system already, so we can speak to each other without confusion... "1 inch is 0.083333333 feet" and "1 cup is 0.0625 gallons" who can keep track of those decimal values? How do you even remember if it's 0.0833 or 0.0625?

    I find it easier to remember 12 inches to the foot and 8 pints to the gallon which combines with 2 cups to the pint to give 16 cups to the gallon.

    Of course, if you are worrying about the conversion between cups and gallons, you're probably doing something wrong. (Notably: why the hell are you measuring cooking ingredients - the normal stuff you measure in cups - in **gallons**?)


    TRWTF is Americans using cups for measuring cooking ingredients.
    Especially things like flour, which can vary in density quite significantly depending on if it's sifted, how well packed it is in the packed etc.
  • xaade 2013-07-09 10:01
    miko:
    TRWTF is definitely the murican AM/PM over-complication of it all. Why bother? Why not just give in and do like the rest of the world? The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day. Simple as that.

    Please convert to the metric system already, so we can speak to each other without confusion... "1 inch is 0.083333333 feet" and "1 cup is 0.0625 gallons" who can keep track of those decimal values? How do you even remember if it's 0.0833 or 0.0625?


    The ONLY reason we have the metric system is because we're so pedantic on decimal-points of measurements. Which is great for working measurements of space and volume like designing a building. It's horrible for other uses like cooking, etc.

    When using different measurements for different sizes, they don't have to be related. We can measure a person by feet. 6 and 1/3, 6 and 1/2, 6 and 1/4, 6 and 1/6. We have all those specifications with feet and inches.

    If you still want to keep on this issue, then why 10s. Why don't we scale metric to a base that makes more sense. Nope, we chose 10s. 10 is a horrible number for fractions. 12 is much much better, 30 if you'd prefer using 1/5 over 1/4, 60 does it all but much harder to create a character system for. What's 1/4, 1/3, 1/6 of 10?

    When cooking, do you measure your ground herbs by liter? I suppose you could do milliliter, or worse "cubic-centimeter", but have you compared recipes in metric vs. "standard"?

    The reason standard exists is because we used to measure by what made sense for the size/scale/object. Now we want all our measurements to relate so it's easier to compare. But outside of engineering, do you really need to compare the weight of your eggs to a skyscraper?

    Addendum (2013-07-09 10:18):
    10 was a number we should have abandoned when we could start recording amounts. 10 is only useful because we only have 10 fingers. What's the fractional granularity of 10. 1/10, 1/5, 1/2. That's it. 1, 2, and 5. With 12 we get 1/12, 1/6, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, or 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6. We only miss 5.

    It's much easier for humans to use fractions of 1/x or (x-1)/x. Other fractions are meaningless when we hear them. How do you compare 5/12 to 1/3 or 2/3? Takes a second?

    How do you compare 4/10 to 9/10? We can compare 4/10 to 8/10 quickly because 4/8 is 1/2. But 4/9? Not that useful.
  • Steve The Cynic 2013-07-09 10:05
    miko:
    You are right - something is wrong when you measure in cups or gallons ;)
    Different households have different cups - some even have different sized cups for coffee and for tea.


    Take a FAIL point, dude. *When*measuring*liquids* a cup is a unit of measure, equal to half a pint. Of course that means a US cup is about 5/6 of an Imperial cup, because the corresponding pints are in about that ratio. (And, worse, they aren't the same number of fluid ounces, because a US pint is 16 US fluid ounces, while an Imperial pint (the only way to measure beer, even if you call it 568ml) is 20 Imperial fluid ounces.)

    miko:
    No, I wouldn't know which to use, I heard there is also a difference between dry and wet ounces, and that fact alone is enough for me to NOT trust those scales.

    It's easy. A dry ounce is a unit of force, usually used for weights, while a fluid (not wet) ounce is a unit of volume.
    miko:
    I recently saw a graph of how much sugar is in a coke bottle, but the coke bottle volume was measured in ounces (I think) and the amount of sugar in it was measured in cups - how is that in any way relevant to each other? You guys mix your scales all the time, and it is so confusing.

    Which 'you guys' are you talking about? You obviously haven't been paying attention. I'm an Englishman living in France. My everyday life (vie quotidienne?) is in metric, although I'll admit to still thinking of terrestrial distances and speeds in miles.
    miko:
    1 cubic metre of water = 1000 litres = 1000 kilos.
    100 degrees, water turns to gas. 0 degrees, water turns to ice. (under normal pressure)
    Same scale. Always 10 based. Simple. You should try it! :)

    Actually, water turns to gas at any temperature below the critical point, if the partial pressure of water vapour is low enough. It's called evaporation above the melting point, and sublimation below. You meant to say that water *boils* at 100 degrees centigrade. (And that centigrade part is important because the F scale is also degrees. Alternatively, go 100% SI, where water melts (at standard pressure) at 273.15 K (not degrees, because the kelvin unit is not a degrees unit).)
  • Steve The Cynic 2013-07-09 10:07
    JC:
    TRWTF is Americans using cups for measuring cooking ingredients.
    Especially things like flour, which can vary in density quite significantly depending on if it's sifted, how well packed it is in the packed etc.

    I agree 100% with that. However the US tendency to measure liquids in recipes in cups is why I still have some US cup-fraction measuring scoops at home. It's moderately annoying.
  • Bring Back TopCod3r 2013-07-09 10:07
    someone:
    It has nothing to do with Meridians. Meridiem, on the other hand, is like Latin for Midday


    That makes a lot more sense.
  • Hannes 2013-07-09 10:10
    Patrys:
    Hannes:
    Mike5:
    Also, what about hour '0' ?


    The code says: If the length of the hour is just one letter (ie '9') then add a 0 to it (ie '09'). Just a formatting issue.


    Nope, in 24-hour format midnight is in fact hour zero.


    I know. ;)
    Still the code adds an extra zero if the hour is between 0 and 9.
  • dpm 2013-07-09 10:12
    miko:
    The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day.
    Technically, a day begins at 00:00:00 and ends at 23:59:59 --- you have an off-by-one error.
  • Chris P. Peterson 2013-07-09 10:16
    A fail to be sure. Proof that even a basic unit test goes a long way. Reminds me of a co-worker who wrote a circle drawing routine that generated over a billion points in one of the paths through the code. An epic fail that could have been caught with a simple unit test that exercised all the paths through the code.
  • xaade 2013-07-09 10:21
    Steve The Cynic:
    JC:
    TRWTF is Americans using cups for measuring cooking ingredients.
    Especially things like flour, which can vary in density quite significantly depending on if it's sifted, how well packed it is in the packed etc.

    I agree 100% with that. However the US tendency to measure liquids in recipes in cups is why I still have some US cup-fraction measuring scoops at home. It's moderately annoying.


    I suppose you could keep a small scale and measure by grams.
  • xaade 2013-07-09 10:21
    dpm:
    miko:
    The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day.
    Technically, a day begins at 00:00:00 and ends at 23:59:59 --- you have an off-by-one error.


    23:59:59.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999....

    Addendum (2013-07-09 10:28):
    Which is the same as 24:00:00.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0.999...
  • xaade 2013-07-09 10:25
    Steve The Cynic:


    Take a FAIL point, dude. *When*measuring*liquids* a cup is a unit of measure, equal to half a pint. Of course that means a US cup is about 5/6 of an Imperial cup, because the corresponding pints are in about that ratio. (And, worse, they aren't the same number of fluid ounces, because a US pint is 16 US fluid ounces, while an Imperial pint (the only way to measure beer, even if you call it 568ml) is 20 Imperial fluid ounces.)


    See, this is why I don't understand bashing the standard system.

    If you are stubborn enough to insist that 1 -> 10 is superior in every way. Why abandon that and convert 568ml to 20?

    At that point you basically reintroduced the standard system, which is measure by whatever makes sense and not worry about being able to convert.

    Do you really need to know how much beer it would take to fill the pipes in the water treatment plant?

    No... You need a way to personally track how much beer it takes to get intoxicated. Which is best measurable in drinks, which is measured per drink type by alcohol content over total volume.

    For example, you have a separate cup for shots than wine, and it's not just for style. Do you really want to drink wine in shot glasses, or shots in wine glasses.
  • huppenzuppen 2013-07-09 10:26
    No, it doesn't. You're missing one second.
  • JAPH 2013-07-09 10:36
    The imperial units were fashioned to be easily divided.

    1 foot = 12 inches
    1/2 foot = 6 inches
    1/3 foot = 4 inches
    1/4 foot = 3 inches
    1/6 foot = 2 inches

    1 gallon = 4 quarts = 8 pints = 16 cups = 128 floz
    1 quart = 2 pints
    1 pint = 2 cups
    1 cup = 8 floz
    1 floz = 2 Tbsp
    1 Tbsp = 3 tsp

    The metric system is only more useful when dealing with powers of 10. How do you represent 1/3 of a meter? No matter how many decimal places you display it's only an approximation.

    TRWTF is the UK getting after the US for using a system of measures THEY invented.
  • Kivi 2013-07-09 10:45
    Anonymous Paranoiac:
    I think we can all agree that the only 'correct' date format is the yyyy-mm-dd hh:mm:ss standard.

    You could make a case for yyyy-mm-ddThh:mm:ss.
  • miko 2013-07-09 10:47
    JAPH:
    The imperial units were fashioned to be easily divided.

    1 foot = 12 inches
    1/2 foot = 6 inches
    1/3 foot = 4 inches
    1/4 foot = etc fractions forever...


    Yes, I can see how you would want only half a beer or a third of a glass of beer. But hey, let's just call it "a third"? Why have another name for it? five and a half feet, or five and a third, is that really so much worse than five feet and four inches? Or just 160 centimeters, or whatever now it corresponds to. If you know a glass of beer is exactly half a litre (like it usually is outside US/UK), half a glass of beer is a quarter of a litre. I don't demand the use of the term "glass" when measuring other fluids just because of that. Litres, and deci- centi- and milli thereof are just fine. There are typically 6 centiliters of gin in a gin tonic. You can easily calculate how many you need to drink to get intoxicated. :)
  • aigarius 2013-07-09 10:51
    If you still want to keep on this issue, then why 10s. Why don't we scale metric to a base that makes more sense. Nope, we chose 10s. 10 is a horrible number for fractions. 12 is much much better, 30 if you'd prefer using 1/5 over 1/4, 60 does it all but much harder to create a character system for. What's 1/4, 1/3, 1/6 of 10?

    When cooking, do you measure your ground herbs by liter? I suppose you could do milliliter, or worse "cubic-centimeter", but have you compared recipes in metric vs. "standard"?


    Actually standard (i.e. metric) recipes usually use milliliters for liquid ingredients and grams for the rest. Which is trivial to measure with a measuring cup and a kitchen scale. Also trivial to add up.

    Why would you need to divide stuff? All the normal recipes give ingredient quantities either for two people or for one person, so you either have to divide in half or just multiply. And if you really need it, then any calculator will help you - hint, they are ALL in decimal!!! So instead of trying to remember that 1/6th of a foot is two inches (or whatever), 1/6th of a meter is .. 1/6th of a meter = 0.16667 of a meter, or 166.67 cm and you use the same process if you need 1/8th. Tell me, what is 1/13th of a foot?

    Non-metric measurements are archaic relics of the 18th century with no practical value. I pity the fools that still cling to them. And same with the AM/PM system borne from the skill limits of ancient clock builders.
  • Rollyn01 2013-07-09 11:02
    Huh... I always thought that a.m. and p.m. were made up as part of a reference to the most recognized and most significant part of the day: noon. What limits are you taking about?
  • Rollyn01 2013-07-09 11:04
    silly quote system.

    aigarius:
    If you still want to keep on this issue, then why 10s. Why don't we scale metric to a base that makes more sense. Nope, we chose 10s. 10 is a horrible number for fractions. 12 is much much better, 30 if you'd prefer using 1/5 over 1/4, 60 does it all but much harder to create a character system for. What's 1/4, 1/3, 1/6 of 10?

    When cooking, do you measure your ground herbs by liter? I suppose you could do milliliter, or worse "cubic-centimeter", but have you compared recipes in metric vs. "standard"?


    Actually standard (i.e. metric) recipes usually use milliliters for liquid ingredients and grams for the rest. Which is trivial to measure with a measuring cup and a kitchen scale. Also trivial to add up.

    Why would you need to divide stuff? All the normal recipes give ingredient quantities either for two people or for one person, so you either have to divide in half or just multiply. And if you really need it, then any calculator will help you - hint, they are ALL in decimal!!! So instead of trying to remember that 1/6th of a foot is two inches (or whatever), 1/6th of a meter is .. 1/6th of a meter = 0.16667 of a meter, or 166.67 cm and you use the same process if you need 1/8th. Tell me, what is 1/13th of a foot?

    Non-metric measurements are archaic relics of the 18th century with no practical value. I pity the fools that still cling to them. And same with the AM/PM system borne from the skill limits of ancient clock builders.



    Huh... I always thought that a.m. and p.m. were made up as part of a reference to the most recognized and most significant part of the day: noon. What limits are you taking about?
  • Jalopy 2013-07-09 11:04
    Steve The Cynic:
    miko:
    TRWTF is definitely the murican AM/PM over-complication of it all. Why bother? Why not just give in and do like the rest of the world? The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day. Simple as that.

    Please convert to the metric system already, so we can speak to each other without confusion... "1 inch is 0.083333333 feet" and "1 cup is 0.0625 gallons" who can keep track of those decimal values? How do you even remember if it's 0.0833 or 0.0625?

    I find it easier to remember 12 inches to the foot and 8 pints to the gallon which combines with 2 cups to the pint to give 16 cups to the gallon.

    Of course, if you are worrying about the conversion between cups and gallons, you're probably doing something wrong. (Notably: why the hell are you measuring cooking ingredients - the normal stuff you measure in cups - in **gallons**?)


    Bulk cooking springs to mind. This recipe says 1 cup of stock per person. I'm cooking for 50. I'm not going to pour 50 cups separately.
  • Todd Lewis 2013-07-09 11:06
    Steve The Cynic:

    Of course, if you are worrying about the conversion between cups and gallons, you're probably doing something wrong. (Notably: why the hell are you measuring cooking ingredients - the normal stuff you measure in cups - in **gallons**?)


    Because I'm cooking for a Summer Camp feeding 1200 to 1400 people per meal. That's a lot of cups of grits, that is.
  • emmayche 2013-07-09 11:08
    If you think that the metric system is the only thing standing in the way of Americans and Europeans speaking to each other without confusion, then you are, to be kind, hyperfocused.
  • Rollyn01 2013-07-09 11:13
    Jalopy:
    Steve The Cynic:
    miko:
    TRWTF is definitely the murican AM/PM over-complication of it all. Why bother? Why not just give in and do like the rest of the world? The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day. Simple as that.

    Please convert to the metric system already, so we can speak to each other without confusion... "1 inch is 0.083333333 feet" and "1 cup is 0.0625 gallons" who can keep track of those decimal values? How do you even remember if it's 0.0833 or 0.0625?

    I find it easier to remember 12 inches to the foot and 8 pints to the gallon which combines with 2 cups to the pint to give 16 cups to the gallon.

    Of course, if you are worrying about the conversion between cups and gallons, you're probably doing something wrong. (Notably: why the hell are you measuring cooking ingredients - the normal stuff you measure in cups - in **gallons**?)


    Bulk cooking springs to mind. This recipe says 1 cup of stock per person. I'm cooking for 50. I'm not going to pour 50 cups separately.


    You can't inform someone about the use and rationale of scale when they think that the lack of scale is the problem. You're trying to teach a chicken that it's ok to lay eggs when it think eggs are the problem.
  • Doesn't read user names 2013-07-09 11:13
    dpm:
    miko:
    The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day.
    Technically, a day begins at 00:00:00 and ends at 23:59:59 --- you have an off-by-one error.


    Actually, the range of time in a day is [00:00, 24:00), to be precise. You can measure a time arbitrarily close to 24:00, but not 24:00, since that's 00:00. Alternatively, you can argue that a clock is cyclic, so 00:00 = 24:00 so it doesn't even matter.
  • David Carter 2013-07-09 11:14
    Zagyg:
    Ode To A Small Lump Of Green Putty I Found In My Armpit One Midsummer Morning


    Is that a Vogon poem?

    I don't speak PHP, but it seemed perfectly readable to me. Could easily be replaced by a standard library function, I would guess. I know that back when I started coding I probably (read: did) had several WTFs like this, particularly with the dates. Seems like part of the learning curve.

    Isn't there some standard coding process, like parsing dates and times, that programmers consistently get wrong early in their careers?

    Captcha: Jugis. You know, it is national nude recreation week...
  • Brendan 2013-07-09 11:22
    Hi,

    xaade:
    dpm:
    miko:
    The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day.
    Technically, a day begins at 00:00:00 and ends at 23:59:59 --- you have an off-by-one error.


    23:59:59.999...

    Addendum (2013-07-09 10:28):
    Which is the same as 24:00:00.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0.999...


    Still wrong.

    The day normally ends immediately before 24:00:00 (or immediately before 23:59:59.999...), unless a leap second is being added. For the leap second case, the day ends immediately before 24:00:01 (or immediately before 24:00:00.999...).

    - Brendan
  • RandomGuy 2013-07-09 11:29
    Seriously, I'm not sure anymore which of the comments defending the imperial system are actually sarcasm.
  • ¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL 2013-07-09 11:33
    Jalopy:
    Bulk cooking springs to mind. This recipe says 1 cup of stock per person. I'm cooking for 50. I'm not going to pour 50 cups separately.
    Let's cook with Google!

    Good thing I already know that .125 is 1/8.
  • eViLegion 2013-07-09 11:33
    All cooking ingredients should be specified in mol.

    Particularly things like "sides of beef".
  • me 2013-07-09 11:42
    Steve The Cynic:
    (Notably: why the hell are you measuring cooking ingredients - the normal stuff you measure in cups - in **gallons**?)


    Beer.
  • PedanticMan 2013-07-09 11:42
    There's a reason why the Imperial system won't go away...

    Metric version of the song 'I'm gonna be' by the Proclaimers:

    "When I wake up, well I know I'm gonna be
    I'm gonna be the man who wakes up next to you.
    When I go out, yeah I know I'm gonna be
    I'm gonna be the man who goes along with you.

    If I get drunk, well I know I'm gonna be
    I'm gonna be the man who gets drunk next to you.
    And if I haver, yeah I know I'm gonna be
    I'm gonna be the man who's haverin' to you.

    But I would walk 804.672 kilometers
    And I would walk 804.672 more
    Just to be the man who walked 1609.34 kilometers
    To fall down at your door"


    Just doesn't work.
  • eViLegion 2013-07-09 11:49
    PedanticMan:

    But I would walk 804.672 kilometers
    And I would walk 804.672 more
    ...Just to be the man who walked 1609.34 kilometers
    To fall down at your door"


    "Baaaar da da daar! (Baaaar da da daar!)
    Baaaar da da daar! (Baaaar da da daar!)
    Baaar da da daar da da daaar da da daar da da daar daar daar!!"

    That bit still works.
  • miko 2013-07-09 11:51
    Steve The Cynic:
    miko:
    You are right - something is wrong when you measure in cups or gallons ;)
    Different households have different cups - some even have different sized cups for coffee and for tea.


    Take a FAIL point, dude. *When*measuring*liquids* a cup is a unit of measure, equal to half a pint. Of course that means a US cup is about 5/6 of an Imperial cup, because the corresponding pints are in about that ratio. (And, worse, they aren't the same number of fluid ounces, because a US pint is 16 US fluid ounces, while an Imperial pint (the only way to measure beer, even if you call it 568ml) is 20 Imperial fluid ounces.)


    Yeah. Tea and coffee cups was a joke but you make a good point. Cups are even worse measurements than I had thought.

    Steve The Cynic:

    miko:
    No, I wouldn't know which to use, I heard there is also a difference between dry and wet ounces, and that fact alone is enough for me to NOT trust those scales.

    It's easy. A dry ounce is a unit of force, usually used for weights, while a fluid (not wet) ounce is a unit of volume.


    Kilogram is a unit of weight. Litre is a unit of volume.
    1 Kilogram of water = 1 Litre of water = 1 cubic decimeter of water. Wet. :)

    Steve The Cynic:
    miko:
    I recently saw a graph of how much sugar is in a coke bottle, but the coke bottle volume was measured in ounces (I think) and the amount of sugar in it was measured in cups - how is that in any way relevant to each other? You guys mix your scales all the time, and it is so confusing.

    Which 'you guys' are you talking about? You obviously haven't been paying attention. I'm an Englishman living in France. My everyday life (vie quotidienne?) is in metric, although I'll admit to still thinking of terrestrial distances and speeds in miles.


    Ok. Miles to a gallon is also kind of difficult to calculate with. If I know how many miles there is to a gallon in my car (say.. 37? is that like normal?), and I'm about to drive 14 miles - how do I know how much gas will cost for the trip? Well let's see... Um, 1/37 * 14 = ... uh...
    Instead, use litres per 100 kilometres. Say 6. Go for 37 kilometres. 6 times 0.37 is like 2.22 litres. Easy.

    Steve The Cynic:
    miko:
    1 cubic metre of water = 1000 litres = 1000 kilos.
    100 degrees, water turns to gas. 0 degrees, water turns to ice. (under normal pressure)
    Same scale. Always 10 based. Simple. You should try it! :)

    Actually, water turns to gas at any temperature below the critical point, if the partial pressure of water vapour is low enough. It's called evaporation above the melting point, and sublimation below. You meant to say that water *boils* at 100 degrees centigrade. (And that centigrade part is important because the F scale is also degrees. Alternatively, go 100% SI, where water melts (at standard pressure) at 273.15 K (not degrees, because the kelvin unit is not a degrees unit).)


    Yeah. That's why I said "normal pressure". Of course pressure differs during the vaporization process, but if you push the temperature of your water to above 100 degrees celcius ("centigrade"), you will end up having all gas. And if you drop the temperature of all the water to below 100 you will have water again (or ice if you go below 0 as well). You know this. And you know it's what I meant.
  • pjt33 2013-07-09 11:51
    xaade:
    When cooking, do you measure your ground herbs by liter? I suppose you could do milliliter, or worse "cubic-centimeter", but have you compared recipes in metric vs. "standard"?

    Did you miss the bit where everyone else agreed that using volume to measure things which vary dramatically in density is a bad idea?

    Any half-decent cook measures ground herbs by experience and then tastes to check.

    Recipes in metric only fail to make sense when they were originally written in Imperial and then converted by someone too stupid to round off.
  • pjt33 2013-07-09 11:53
    Kivi:
    Anonymous Paranoiac:
    I think we can all agree that the only 'correct' date format is the yyyy-mm-dd hh:mm:ss standard.

    You could make a case for yyyy-mm-ddThh:mm:ss.

    Or various other permutations supported by ISO 8601 - in particular, yyyy-mm-ddThh:mm:ssZ.
  • DCRoss 2013-07-09 11:56
    Sam:
    TheLatinPig:
    if you want to nitpick, someone, the Latin word would be like meridies, meridiem being like the accusative form.


    Although in "AM" the word would indeed by meridiem, since ante takes the accusative.


    But "Domus" takes the locative, which is...?

    Er, "Domum"!

    Understand? Now, write "Romani ite domum" a hundred times.

    Yes sir. Thank you, sir. Hail Caesar, sir.

    Hail Caesar ! And if it's not done by sunrise, I'll cut your balls off.
  • RandomGuy 2013-07-09 11:56
    JAPH:
    The metric system is only more useful when dealing with powers of 10. How do you represent 1/3 of a meter? No matter how many decimal places you display it's only an approximation.

    And there comes the advantage of imperial units:
    1/3 gallon=77in³=256tsp. (trusting wolframalpha)
    Totally easy to remember and very intuitive.

    If you want 1/3 of a liter you should manage to calculate 1000ml/3≈333ml. If your recipe requires accuracy better than 1‰, you first need to buy a very precise scale, anyways.
    The same goes for 1/3m. Basically, you need to know how much accuracy is required and how accurate you can measure. Calculating a decimal approximation of 1/3 is the easier part.
  • operagost 2013-07-09 11:58
    miko:
    TRWTF is definitely the murican AM/PM over-complication of it all. Why bother? Why not just give in and do like the rest of the world? The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day. Simple as that.

    What's a murican?

    Please convert to the metric system already, so we can speak to each other without confusion... "1 inch is 0.083333333 feet" and "1 cup is 0.0625 gallons" who can keep track of those decimal values?

    Only a moron, since they aren't decimal measures. One cup is 1/16 of a gallon. One inch is 1/12 of a foot, as if anyone measures things that way.

    How do you even remember if it's 0.0833 or 0.0625?

    It should be easy, right? Just like it's easy for us to change our entire culture to suit you.
  • BrunoTR 2013-07-09 12:02
    xaade:

    See, this is why I don't understand bashing the standard system.

    If you are stubborn enough to insist that 1 -> 10 is superior in every way. Why abandon that and convert 568ml to 20?

    At that point you basically reintroduced the standard system, which is measure by whatever makes sense and not worry about being able to convert.

    Do you really need to know how much beer it would take to fill the pipes in the water treatment plant?

    No... You need a way to personally track how much beer it takes to get intoxicated. Which is best measurable in drinks, which is measured per drink type by alcohol content over total volume.

    For example, you have a separate cup for shots than wine, and it's not just for style. Do you really want to drink wine in shot glasses, or shots in wine glasses.


    Ok, so, if I'm understanding your reasoning correctly, If I measure the alcohol content in a shot glass of whatever it will be the same as in a pint of (whatever) beer or a wine glass of (whatever) wine? Because if not that's not really very precise, is it?

    I can appreciate the value of knowing that, say, two pints of beer will make me tipsy, or two bottles, or two tankards, but that's not meant to be an exact measurement. I wont't say one night "Hey, I noticed I drank only 1 + 7/8 bottles tonight and it was enough to make me tipsy!"

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, if youre drinking or cooking and you don't need to be super exact in your measurements, then it's ok to use whatever is at hand as your measuring unit (e.g. pints / bottles of beer or cups of flour). Sometimes the bartender will fill the shot glass a little more, sometimes the flour will be more packed in the cup, some apples will be bigger than others: precision doesn't matter that much in these contexts.

    BUT when you need precision and standardization it does work better when your units click together and use a single coherent (decimal) scale. You can relate meters, grams, seconds, joules, watts, hertz, pascals, volts, ohms, etc without having to remember any extraneous constants. (like 1 (US) gallon = 231 cubic inches or 1 horsepower = 550 foot-pounds per second)

    I won't argue that base 12 would be wonderful for working with fractions, but having used the metric system my whole life I can say that I (and most people I know) don't think in terms of fractions that much, unless we're eating cake or pizza. Fractions are great for dividing things, not so good for measuring and comparing. That's why - as you yourself pointed out - most fractions are meaningless to us humans.

    You asked how to compare 5/12 to 1/3 or 2/3. What if it was 0.41666 to 0.33333 or 0.66666? Even if the decimals are recurring, there's no doubt as to which is bigger.

  • operagost 2013-07-09 12:04
    aigarius:

    Non-metric measurements are archaic relics of the 18th century with no practical value. I pity the fools that still cling to them.

    If they had no practical value, then ipso facto they would not be in use, i.e. "practice".
  • drake 2013-07-09 12:06
    Everybody should get over themselves. The easiest measuring system to use is the one you grew up using. Converting, especially as an adult, is difficult no matter what direction you are going.
  • cellocgw 2013-07-09 12:09
    JC:

    TRWTF is Americans using cups for measuring cooking ingredients.
    Especially things like flour, which can vary in density quite significantly depending on if it's sifted, how well packed it is in the packed etc.


    I suspect this started out 'cause it's a lot easier to transport and maintain some volumetric measurement devices (aka mug or barrel) than a reliable weight/mass scale of any type. But even in this newfangled country, top chefs tend to work by mass, not volume.
  • miko 2013-07-09 12:09
    BrunoTR:
    You asked how to compare 5/12 to 1/3 or 2/3. What if it was 0.41666 to 0.33333 or 0.66666? Even if the decimals are recurring, there's no doubt as to which is bigger.


    +1
  • cellocgw 2013-07-09 12:11
    dpm:
    miko:
    The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day.
    Technically, a day begins at 00:00:00 and ends at 23:59:59 --- you have an off-by-one error.


    Damn-- I've been cheated out of a second every single day!

    ([<{ please check for whoosh before angrily correcting me}>])
  • Jeremy 2013-07-09 12:13
    TRWTF is that when people get to things like this, though I imagine we're all guilty of it at some points, is why people never identify "man, this must be a really common problem, maybe I should actually look for the 'real' solution."

    And as a corollary, when you DO look, and a "solution" like this is what comes up in google, not being able to identify that that's still way more clumsy than such a common problem "should be", and digging a bit more to see if there's a "real" answer.

    I mean, PHP is bad, but do people really think we manually parse apart specific date formats, and do math, to get the hours/mins/seconds out of it?
  • foo 2013-07-09 12:15
    JAPH:
    TRWTF is the UK getting after the US for using a system of measures THEY invented.
    And the Germans for using Fahrenheit which one of them invented.
  • Rnd( 2013-07-09 12:19
    So what about 1/5 foot? Or 1/5 of gallon?
  • xaade 2013-07-09 12:20
    BrunoTR:

    Ok, so, if I'm understanding your reasoning correctly, If I measure the alcohol content in a shot glass of whatever it will be the same as in a pint of (whatever) beer or a wine glass of (whatever) wine? Because if not that's not really very precise, is it?

    I can appreciate the value of knowing that, say, two pints of beer will make me tipsy, or two bottles, or two tankards, but that's not meant to be an exact measurement. I wont't say one night "Hey, I noticed I drank only 1 + 7/8 bottles tonight and it was enough to make me tipsy!"

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, if youre drinking or cooking and you don't need to be super exact in your measurements, then it's ok to use whatever is at hand as your measuring unit (e.g. pints / bottles of beer or cups of flour). Sometimes the bartender will fill the shot glass a little more, sometimes the flour will be more packed in the cup, some apples will be bigger than others: precision doesn't matter that much in these contexts.

    BUT when you need precision and standardization it does work better when your units click together and use a single coherent (decimal) scale. You can relate meters, grams, seconds, joules, watts, hertz, pascals, volts, ohms, etc without having to remember any extraneous constants. (like 1 (US) gallon = 231 cubic inches or 1 horsepower = 550 foot-pounds per second)

    I won't argue that base 12 would be wonderful for working with fractions, but having used the metric system my whole life I can say that I (and most people I know) don't think in terms of fractions that much, unless we're eating cake or pizza. Fractions are great for dividing things, not so good for measuring and comparing. That's why - as you yourself pointed out - most fractions are meaningless to us humans.

    You asked how to compare 5/12 to 1/3 or 2/3. What if it was 0.41666 to 0.33333 or 0.66666? Even if the decimals are recurring, there's no doubt as to which is bigger.



    I didn't mean that any drink can be in any glass.
    I'm saying that if you use the right glass for the right drink, you'll know without thinking how much you should drink. You won't have to... ok, this is 15% by volume so I usually drink this 3% by volume so I can fill the glass one third... oh crap, where's the 1/3 measuring line.

    Exactly. If you don't need to be exact, there's no need to have a metric system. Use whatever measuring system is the most convenient, and I've found the standard system much more convenient for cooking. Much much more. Plus, it's much better to have a system that works better with fractions. Sometimes you want to divide the recipe by a third or fourth, much better to have a system that handles that better.

    In terms of comparing height of people at glance, it's much easier to have feet than meters IMO. I find it better to have numbers that fit the context. It's not helpful to know that I'm 2 meters and my wife is 1.678 meters. How do I relate those two. 6 and 5 just work better.

    Of course you could use decimeters. 20 and 17 is easier. But when I want non-exactness, I prefer fractions that are easier to relate in my head.

    Yes, you could say 5/12 is bigger than 1/3 faster if you just compare the decimals, but it's more than just if one is bigger, it's bigger by how much. Ok, .41666 - .33333 = .08333. But how useful is .0833? Does that mean anything to you? It doesn't to me. 5/12 - 1/3 = 5/12 - 4/12 = 1/12. 1/12. I just prefer that number. I immediately know that 1/12 is 1/4 of 1/3. And if I was cooking, it's more helpful to have that in my head and have a 1/12 measuring cup, than to have my measuring cups labelled .08333.

    But I guess I'm just biased.

    I mean, if I'm doing machine computation, I just use binary and hex. I don't convert to decimal. I can even do float type computation in my head much faster than base 10.
  • eViLegion 2013-07-09 12:21
    JAPH:
    TRWTF is the UK getting after the US for using a system of measures THEY invented.

    Hahaha! Suckers... we persecuted all your ancestors for their religion so they'd piss off to some bullshit continent, and to add insult to injury we made you use imperial, taxed you up to the eyeballs so you'd rebel, then fucked off, thereby lumbering you with a preposterous non-decimal system.

    Yeah... we did that.
  • foo 2013-07-09 12:27
    xaade:
    The ONLY reason we have the metric system is because we're so pedantic on decimal-points of measurements. Which is great for working measurements of space and volume like designing a building. It's horrible for other uses like cooking, etc.
    What's so horrible about, say, 1.5 liters of water? Seems all those "horrors" about decimals stem from using ridiculously over-precise values e.g. when converting, such as saying 3.785411784l for 1 US gallon instead of just 3.8l or even 4l, depending on context. Few recipes are that precise to start with.
    If you still want to keep on this issue, then why 10s. Why don't we scale metric to a base that makes more sense. Nope, we chose 10s. 10 is a horrible number for fractions. 12 is much much better, 30 if you'd prefer using 1/5 over 1/4, 60 does it all but much harder to create a character system for. What's 1/4, 1/3, 1/6 of 10?
    While 10 is certainly not the best base in any sense (you prefer 12 or 30, computers like powers of 2, mathematicians would like a prime number, 10 is in neither list), that's how we do all our calculations already. So using a 10-based system means no additional effort to do calculations, even the decimals points don't hurt. You know that 3*15 = 45, so 3*1.5l = 4.5l. I never got the American obsesssion with fractions. Do you really need to divide by 3 or 6 so often? I don't.
  • RakerF1 2013-07-09 12:28
    Rnd(:
    So what about 1/5 foot? Or 1/5 of gallon?


    0.2 feet and 0.2 gallons.
  • Hannes 2013-07-09 12:29
    JAPH:
    How do you represent 1/3 of a meter?


    Simple: 1/3 meter.

    But anyway, your point is? Anyone can create an example of how the one system fails to display a certain measurement of the other system (25.5 meters is 83.6614173 feet, now tell me that this is any better...). But it doesn't change the fact (yes, from my point of view it's a fact. You might see that a little bit different though ;) ) that the metric system is way more logical: http://www.elauhel.fr/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/imperial_vs_metric.png
  • cretin 2013-07-09 12:32
    xaade:

    The ONLY reason we have the metric system is because we're so pedantic on decimal-points of measurements. Which is great for working measurements of space and volume like designing a building. It's horrible for other uses like cooking, etc.

    When using different measurements for different sizes, they don't have to be related. We can measure a person by feet. 6 and 1/3, 6 and 1/2, 6 and 1/4, 6 and 1/6. We have all those specifications with feet and inches.

    If you still want to keep on this issue, then why 10s. Why don't we scale metric to a base that makes more sense. Nope, we chose 10s. 10 is a horrible number for fractions. 12 is much much better, 30 if you'd prefer using 1/5 over 1/4, 60 does it all but much harder to create a character system for. What's 1/4, 1/3, 1/6 of 10?

    When cooking, do you measure your ground herbs by liter? I suppose you could do milliliter, or worse "cubic-centimeter", but have you compared recipes in metric vs. "standard"?

    The reason standard exists is because we used to measure by what made sense for the size/scale/object. Now we want all our measurements to relate so it's easier to compare. But outside of engineering, do you really need to compare the weight of your eggs to a skyscraper?

    Addendum (2013-07-09 10:18):
    10 was a number we should have abandoned when we could start recording amounts. 10 is only useful because we only have 10 fingers. What's the fractional granularity of 10. 1/10, 1/5, 1/2. That's it. 1, 2, and 5. With 12 we get 1/12, 1/6, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, or 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6. We only miss 5.

    It's much easier for humans to use fractions of 1/x or (x-1)/x. Other fractions are meaningless when we hear them. How do you compare 5/12 to 1/3 or 2/3? Takes a second?

    How do you compare 4/10 to 9/10? We can compare 4/10 to 8/10 quickly because 4/8 is 1/2. But 4/9? Not that useful.


    <rant>

    Goddamn you're a douche. Basing the utility of the number base on how reducible fractions are is like voting Republican cause they got all the hot psychotic women.

    As soon as you start arguing in favor of base 30 and 60 number systems you must have realized you leapt off the deep end. Think of the multiplication tables! Ze cheeldren weel never lern.

    And then you (of course) left out base 8, which WOULD be awesome cause then floating point numbers would just be plain old standard scientific notation. No messy conversions, and no 1.955555555555's ever (unless you really wanted them). But your view is that 8 simply doesn't have enough prime divisors. Sigh.

    Conclusion: numbers probably just confuse you, and if you genuinely like base 30, then you probably did vote Republican. Dumbass.

    </rant>
  • foo 2013-07-09 12:32
    Steve The Cynic:
    And of 12:00:00 m being technically correct for the infinitessimal period at exactly noon, but for practical purposes there is no point in doing it. Imagine an LCD clock - in the time that the "m" takes to appear, it will have become invalid, so don't bother. And for specifying "noon", since there is a hypothecated quantum granularity of time, we can assert that it probably can never actually be exactly noon, but always a small fraction of a Planck interval before or after, it is always either am or pm.
    As you say, this is only hypothetical.

    However, due to the uncertainty principle, an observer can never be perfectly at rest relative to a watch, so due to special relativity, events are not synchronous between the watch and the observer. That's why it doesn't make sense to display exactly noon. It's really so simple.
  • Stan Rogers 2013-07-09 12:35
    Steve The Cynic:
    *When*measuring*liquids* a cup is a unit of measure, equal to half a pint. Of course that means a US cup is about 5/6 of an Imperial cup, because the corresponding pints are in about that ratio. (And, worse, they aren't the same number of fluid ounces, because a US pint is 16 US fluid ounces, while an Imperial pint (the only way to measure beer, even if you call it 568ml) is 20 Imperial fluid ounces.)


    No, not quite. A cup is 8 fluid ounces, and while there is a trifling difference between the official volume of a fluid ounce in the American and Imperial systems (something that won't affect real-world measurements to even the degree that variations in the height of the meniscus of liquids would), there is no perceptible difference between an American cup and an Imperial cup. Where we differ is where we attach the handy conversion value between water weight and liquid volume. In the US, a pint is a pound, yielding a 32-ounce quart and an eight-pound gallon. In the Imperial system, a gallon is defined as ten pounds of water, which yields a 40-ounce quart and a 20-ounce pint. (The definitions of a quart being a quarter of a gallon and a pint being half a quart remain he same.) So in the Imperial system, there are two and a half cups to the pint, or five cups to the quart.
  • pSIonic 2013-07-09 12:42
    JAPH:
    How do you represent 1/3 of a meter?


    About thirteen inches.

    aigarius:
    Tell me, what is 1/13th of a foot?


    About 0.0234 meters.
  • foo 2013-07-09 12:51
    xaade:
    In terms of comparing height of people at glance, it's much easier to have feet than meters IMO. I find it better to have numbers that fit the context. It's not helpful to know that I'm 2 meters and my wife is 1.678 meters. How do I relate those two. 6 and 5 just work better.
    Interesting you brought up such an example, because I was gonna use almost exactly the same example against imperial.

    So, how do you relate 2m and 1.68m? Well, just like you relate the numbers 2 and 1.68 in any other context. 2 is obviously bigger than 1.something, the difference 0.32 is not too hard to compute etc. (BTW, few people measure body size to 3 decimals, another example of unnecessary over-precision, like your .41666 stuff I cut; 0.01m is already more than twice as precise as an inch, so let's stick to meaningful comparisons.)

    OTOH in imperial (unless the sizes just happen to be 5 and 6 ft, which is easy, but rather the exception): But how do you relate, say 6ft2in and 5ft8in? Sure, 6 and something is bigger than 5 and something, but by how much? You can't do a simple subtraction (like 6.2-5.8 = 0.4) because you have to carry 12, not 10. Oh, I'm sure, you can do it in your mind without much thinking because you're used to it, but it's something more to learn. In a decimal system, there's nothing more to learn because you learn to do simple arithmetics anyway.

    BTW, I suppose it would be difficult for you (adults) to switch now (or at any point), but as long as you don't and you're teaching your children imperial, you make them learn extra unnecessary stuff (see above) and help to estrange them from the rest of the world (though your government does quite a good job of that as well).
  • herby 2013-07-09 12:54
    Back to the topic at hand (time)...
    One should know that Time & Date calculations usually have system library functions in almost every computer language known (I don't know about Fortran & Cobol!). They ARE there and lots of people have gone over them to make sure they produce correct results. One should learn to USE THEM, and not re-invent them on the fly, as the implementation has a high likelihood of being WRONG, or at the very least inefficient.

    As for cooking cups, gallons, feet and other such mundane stuff: Most European recipes are WEIGHT (grams, etc.) based, while most American recipes are VOLUME (cups, etc.) based. Plan accordingly when you go to the grocery store!
  • Peter 2013-07-09 12:59
    Steve The Cynic:
    a US pint is 16 US fluid ounces, while an Imperial pint (the only way to measure beer, even if you call it 568ml) is 20 Imperial fluid ounces
    As a child, I was taught the mnemonic "a pint of pure water weighs a pound and a quarter" for the relationship between pints and fluid ounces. Years later, I was delighted to encounter the American equivalent "a pint's a pound the world around".

    Where "the world around" means "in the USA".
  • xaade 2013-07-09 13:02
    Rollyn01:



    Huh... I always thought that a.m. and p.m. were made up as part of a reference to the most recognized and most significant part of the day: noon. What limits are you taking about?


    This is the problem with the contemporary mindset.

    We're smart for using [latest system], and everyone before us was stupid.

    A couple of problems with that mindset.

    1. Everyone before us is valuable because we wouldn't have [latest system].
    2. "Ancient" systems are still useful. It's not like we have that much better of a calendar with all the "oops, need to subtract one second here".
    3. Said proponent of the [latest system] most likely didn't invent it, and can't improve it because they aren't that smart at all. Otherwise, they'd be looking for flaws instead of pointing out flaws of previous models.
    4. They don't value alternatives. They don't see any benefit of previous systems. So when they get into a situation where [latest system] fails, and previous system is better, they'd never recognize it. They are the person that says, "I can't find my way home, GPS isn't working." I like Nick Fury in Avengers, "Is the sun in the sky? Put the sun on the left." Said person would be, "Oh, poor sods that must rely on the sun. I pity the fools." And then die when the ship drops out of the air.

    I hate arrogance. Arrogance is a weakness that limits the mind. It can only be sustained by a comfortable lifestyle, and is useless in a pragmatic world.

    Like when Europe looks down on America.

    I view it like two guys on the Titanic, one on the part pointing in the air, laughing at the guy almost under water.
  • TheCPUWizard 2013-07-09 13:02
    xaade:
    Do you really need to know how much beer it would take to fill the pipes in the water treatment plant?


    Used or Fresh? [ducking and running]
  • xaade 2013-07-09 13:17
    cretin:


    <rant>

    Goddamn you're a douche. Basing the utility of the number base on how reducible fractions are is like voting Republican cause they got all the hot psychotic women.

    As soon as you start arguing in favor of base 30 and 60 number systems you must have realized you leapt off the deep end. Think of the multiplication tables! Ze cheeldren weel never lern.

    And then you (of course) left out base 8, which WOULD be awesome cause then floating point numbers would just be plain old standard scientific notation. No messy conversions, and no 1.955555555555's ever (unless you really wanted them). But your view is that 8 simply doesn't have enough prime divisors. Sigh.

    Conclusion: numbers probably just confuse you, and if you genuinely like base 30, then you probably did vote Republican. Dumbass.

    </rant>


    I voted republican because I like a certain number system? You've thrown totally unrelated topics together to find a way to create elaborate ad hominid.

    I'm arguing that reducible fractions are useful, when baking a cake. I never said to use the standard system for conversion between systems, to calculate volume from density and mass. I explicitly said not to if you read my post.

    I'm saying the standard system can be useful for certain things, and to think that metric is superior and therefore people not using metric are stupid, is a foolish mindset. The name "cretin" suits you.

    I didn't leave out base 8. It's used with ounces in a cup.

    Numbers don't confuse me. I'm saying that fractions are quicker to work with when you want to divide amounts. Isn't that obvious?

    I just can't stand arrogance.

    What did you do that's just so awesome that you're so much better than people who don't think like you?
  • Ken B 2013-07-09 13:19
    Obviously, the "programmer" was used to one of those old-fashioned self-winding clocks, which ran forwards from midnight til noon, and then wound themselves up by running backwards from noon til midnight.
  • Mr. E 2013-07-09 13:28
    Chris P. Peterson:
    A fail to be sure. Proof that even a basic unit test goes a long way. Reminds me of a co-worker who wrote a circle drawing routine that generated over a billion points in one of the paths through the code. An epic fail that could have been caught with a simple unit test that exercised all the paths through the code.


    I bet if they had unit tests, the one they wrote for this tested 6PM
  • D-Coder 2013-07-09 13:33
    operagost:
    miko:
    TRWTF is definitely the murican AM/PM over-complication of it all. Why bother? Why not just give in and do like the rest of the world? The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day. Simple as that.

    What's a murican?
    3/8ths of a frooblat.
  • Roby McAndrew 2013-07-09 13:37
    EatenByAGrue:
    Zagyg:
    Ode To A Small Lump Of Green Putty I Found In My Armpit One Midsummer Morning


    That's nothing - check out this bit by Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings:

    The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
    They lay. They rotted. They turned
    Around occasionally.
    Bits of flesh dropped off them from
    Time to time.
    And sank into the pool's mire.
    They also smelt a great deal.


    The Scottish Bard is still the greatest:

    Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silv’ry Tay!
    Alas! I am very sorry to say
    That ninety lives have been taken away
    On the last Sabbath day of 1879,
    Which will be remember’d for a very long time.

    etc...
    William Topaz McGonagall - The only poet I know to comment on civil engineering
  • da Doctah 2013-07-09 13:38
    the videos were off by different amounts; an hour earlier here, two hours later there, and only in the evening.

    I call shenanigans. The videos could be off by two, four, six, eight or ten hours in either direction, or in the case of the six o'clock hour, by nothing at all. But they could never be "an hour earlier".

    I'd like to be the one who uses the security videos at his performance review: "See there? The video clearly shows that I was still hard at work at my desk at 9:00 PM every night, while your golden boy Dave in the next cubicle is shown leaving at 3:00 PM!"
  • Gurth 2013-07-09 13:40
    JC:
    TRWTF is Americans using cups for measuring cooking ingredients.

    You'd expect them to use buckets, yes.
  • jay 2013-07-09 13:42
    When I was in high school and I was studying chemistry and physics, I thought the advantages of the metric system were obvious and overwhelming, and I couldn't understand why people didn't bite the bullet and switch.

    Then I graduated from school and started living a real life. And I discovered that, for the average person going through his day to day life, the advantages of the metric system don't really make much difference. Sure, with metric it's easy to scale from small units to big units. So what? How often do I really want to know how many golf balls I would have to stack up to reach the Moon? Yes, it's easier to convert between centimeters and kilometers than between inches and miles. So what? How often do I want to convert between inches and miles?

    Arguably, the standard system is superior for day-to-day use because the units were invented to be a convenient size. It's easy to work with small integers and simple fractions. I can grasp "2 cups" instantly in my head, faster than I can grasp "600 ml". And I find "1 1/3 cups" easier than "330 ml".

    Yes, Americans have to remember 12 inches to a foot and 5,280 feet to a mile. Europeans have to remember all the prefixes, "centi", "milli", "deci", "deka", etc.

    All told, I'd rather use metric. But on a scale of 1 to 10, it's like a 5 versus a 6, it's just not that big a deal. Or on a scale of 1 to 12, it's like a 6 versus a 7. :-)
  • dpm 2013-07-09 13:42
    xaade:
    dpm:
    miko:
    The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day.
    Technically, a day begins at 00:00:00 and ends at 23:59:59 --- you have an off-by-one error.


    23:59:59.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999....

    Addendum (2013-07-09 10:28):
    Which is the same as 24:00:00.
    (first response) No, it's not. Clocks do not display fractions-of-a-second, so what are you going to show for the second after 23:59:59? 00:00:00, not 24:00:00.

    (second response) Moot, because the original poster described a range which by any interpretation included both endpoints --- the first second of the first day and the first second of the second day --- which is incorrect.
  • jay 2013-07-09 13:50
    For simple practicality, it makes sense that if we're going to divide time into am and pm, that we not further complicate the matter by adding special designations for midnight and noon that are only valid for a fraction of a second each day.

    I don't care about technical definitions of what "am" and "pm" stand for, their astronomical significance, or the history of the terms. To keep the clock simple, I want 12:00 to be either am or pm, just like any other time.

    Given that, it makes sense to call noon 12:00 pm and midnight 12:00 am. That maintains consistent transitions of the clock. 10:00 am is followed by 10:01 am. 11:00 am is followed by 11:01 am. So it's just easier if 12:00 am is followed by 12:01 am.

    To put it another way, am/pm is a higher order amount than the hour. So it should change only as a "carry" when adding 1 to the hour.

    Better still would be if instead of "12" we said "0" so it was a neat carry. At which point you might as well just switch to a 24-hour clock.

    Or we could go metric and have 10 decidays to the day. Think how that would simplify time arithmetic!
  • jay 2013-07-09 13:53
    miko:
    Please convert to the metric system already, so we can speak to each other without confusion... "1 inch is 0.083333333 feet" and "1 cup is 0.0625 gallons" who can keep track of those decimal values? How do you even remember if it's 0.0833 or 0.0625?


    Umm, you realize that no one says 1 inch = .08333 feet, we say that 1 foot = 12 inches. "12" is not a very difficult number to remember. Not obviously more difficult to remember than "10".
  • Zylon 2013-07-09 13:56
    Steve The Cynic:
    I agree 100% with that. However the US tendency to measure liquids in recipes in cups is why I still have some US cup-fraction measuring scoops at home. It's moderately annoying.

    You all still gives weights in "stone". You don't get to complain.
  • Andrew 2013-07-09 14:00
    IMO the real fail was that Michael just checked the db timestamp and assumed there was no bug without ever even considering the fact that it might be the presentation layer that had a bug, not the db.

    That is an egregious mistake in debugging...
  • jay 2013-07-09 14:01
    miko:
    1 cubic metre of water = 1000 litres = 1000 kilos.
    100 degrees, water turns to gas. 0 degrees, water turns to ice. (under normal pressure)
    Same scale. Always 10 based. Simple. You should try it! :)


    Why do you say 1 cubic meter OF WATER = 1000 liters? I believe 1 cubic meter of sand, or 1 cubic meter of iron, or 1 cubic meter of chicken brains, all would also be 1000 liters.

    And why is the celcius scale based on freezing and boiling points of water? Why not freezing and boiling points of fluorine? Or of glycol antifreeze? Okay, that scale is useful if you're working with water, but for anything else, it's just as arbitrary as Farenheit.
  • jay 2013-07-09 14:04
    emmayche:
    If you think that the metric system is the only thing standing in the way of Americans and Europeans speaking to each other without confusion, then you are, to be kind, hyperfocused.


    Of course it's not JUST the metric system. It's the metric system AND day-month-year versus month-day-year.
  • jay 2013-07-09 14:09
    dpm:
    No, it's not. Clocks do not display fractions-of-a-second, so what are you going to show for the second after 23:59:59? 00:00:00, not 24:00:00.


    Most digital clocks don't show seconds either. And analog clocks show as much precision as you care to read into the movement of the hands.

    But that's beside the point. The question was not, "What is the last time displayed for the day on such-and-such brand and model clock?" but "When does the day end?" I don't say that a foot is 11 inches because that's the highest number that appears on my ruler. (Or for you metric folks, that a meter is 90 centimeters because that's the highest number that appears on my meter stick.)
  • jay 2013-07-09 14:10
    Mr. E:

    I bet if they had unit tests, the one they wrote for this tested 6PM


    There's probably some law of nature about this. If a program works correctly in x out of a possible y total cases, you will test exactly x cases, and they will be the ones that happen to work.
  • Water, Water Everywhere 2013-07-09 14:19
    jay:
    And why is the celcius scale based on freezing and boiling points of water? Why not freezing and boiling points of fluorine? Or of glycol antifreeze? Okay, that scale is useful if you're working with water, but for anything else, it's just as arbitrary as Farenheit.
    Fahrenheit is based on the freezing brine and 'normal' human body temperature.
    Freezing brine is very repeatable, but human body temperature varies considerably between individuals and even the same individual on different days. This, it's utterly useless for calibration.

    At least Centigrade is based on two repeatable constants - you can measure (and manipulate) air pressure relatively simply to get the same answer twice.

    Thus it is possible to calibrate your Centigrade instruments, far more accurately than your Fahrenheit ones.
  • Kivi 2013-07-09 14:28
    foo:
    You prefer [a base of] 12 or 30, computers like powers of 2, mathematicians would like a prime number[...].

    What's the advantage of a number system with a prime base?
  • Zylon 2013-07-09 14:49
    Water, Water Everywhere:
    Fahrenheit is based on the freezing brine and 'normal' human body temperature.
    Freezing brine is very repeatable, but human body temperature varies considerably between individuals and even the same individual on different days. This, it's utterly useless for calibration.

    At least Centigrade is based on two repeatable constants - you can measure (and manipulate) air pressure relatively simply to get the same answer twice.

    Thus it is possible to calibrate your Centigrade instruments, far more accurately than your Fahrenheit ones.

    You're a troll or an idiot. The historical basis for Fahrenheit has no bearing on modern calibration techniques.
  • 7eggert 2013-07-09 14:50
    Especially if 11 AM ends just two hours before 11 PM ...
  • 7eggert 2013-07-09 14:51
    Rollyn01:
    This is one of the reasons for me that the 24-hour format makes more sense, less ambiguity to work. Then again, It could be that it can never get a good gauge on whether it's morning or evening by looking at a 12-hour clock. Damn summers and winters.


    Especially if 11 AM ends just two hours before 11 PM ...
  • chubertdev 2013-07-09 15:05
    JC:
    TRWTF is Americans using cups for measuring cooking ingredients.
    Especially things like flour, which can vary in density quite significantly depending on if it's sifted, how well packed it is in the packed etc.


    So the real WTF is using volume, not the units of measurement? Your comment contradicts itself.
  • eViLegion 2013-07-09 15:09
    Kivi:
    foo:
    You prefer [a base of] 12 or 30, computers like powers of 2, mathematicians would like a prime number[...].

    What's the advantage of a number system with a prime base?


    Presumably because it divides only by itself or one, which makes it really convenient. Yeah... convenient.

    Addendum (2013-07-09 15:14):
    (with the obvious exception of binary of course, which genuinely is convenient)
  • Someone 2013-07-09 15:12
    miko:
    TRWTF is definitely the murican AM/PM over-complication of it all. Why bother? Why not just give in and do like the rest of the world? The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day. Simple as that.

    Please convert to the metric system already, so we can speak to each other without confusion... "1 inch is 0.083333333 feet" and "1 cup is 0.0625 gallons" who can keep track of those decimal values? How do you even remember if it's 0.0833 or 0.0625?

    But you have no problem remembering that a minute is 0.016666667 hours, an hour is 0.0416666667 days, and a day is either 0.0027377583 or 0.0027397260 years, depending on the year?
  • chubertdev 2013-07-09 15:24
    stop being irrational
  • EvilCodeMonkey 2013-07-09 15:30
    cellocgw:
    dpm:
    miko:
    The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day.
    Technically, a day begins at 00:00:00 and ends at 23:59:59 --- you have an off-by-one error.


    Damn-- I've been cheated out of a second every single day!

    ([<{ please check for whoosh before angrily correcting me}>])


    Technically, cellocgw is incorrect. The day ends at 23:59:59.999999999999... (keep adding nines until you get tired of it) You're only cheated out of 1/infinity of a second.
  • 7eggert 2013-07-09 15:30
    xaade:
    Steve The Cynic:
    JC:
    TRWTF is Americans using cups for measuring cooking ingredients.
    Especially things like flour, which can vary in density quite significantly depending on if it's sifted, how well packed it is in the packed etc.

    I agree 100% with that. However the US tendency to measure liquids in recipes in cups is why I still have some US cup-fraction measuring scoops at home. It's moderately annoying.


    I suppose you could keep a small scale and measure by grams.


    Now let's read the recipe ... three cups of water ... I'll use three grams. Three spoons of oil ... I'll use three grams ... why the didn't it work out?
  • the river eating government cheese 2013-07-09 15:36
    Be nice to the poor Europeen feelings. It does bother them so when you remind them that the system of measurement they do go on about is just as arbitrary and baseless as any other. Take a minute and look up the original definitions of common SI units.

    That's right, they're just as arbitrary, malleable, and bogus as anything else. But by gawd they just won't shut up about them.
  • BrunoTR 2013-07-09 15:36
    xaade:

    Exactly. If you don't need to be exact, there's no need to have a metric system. Use whatever measuring system is the most convenient, and I've found the standard system much more convenient for cooking. Much much more. Plus, it's much better to have a system that works better with fractions. Sometimes you want to divide the recipe by a third or fourth, much better to have a system that handles that better.


    Agreed. And that's the sum of my problems with the standard "system": it's not a system, it's a bunch of cups and bottles and barrels (and feet!) that people in the 1600s used to cook and sell grain. They were different from one country to the other (probably from one house to the other!) but tradition makes them endure till today so they had to be "standardized" and "systematized" so that all feet measured the same and all cups could hold the same amount of flour - which, in fact, they don't, so why call that amount of flour a "cup" at all?

    If you are cooking, a cup is useful as a makeshift unit of measurement, and fractions of a cup are esay to visualize, but don't call it a system, call it a cup.

    xaade:

    In terms of comparing height of people at glance, it's much easier to have feet than meters IMO. I find it better to have numbers that fit the context. It's not helpful to know that I'm 2 meters and my wife is 1.678 meters. How do I relate those two. 6 and 5 just work better.

    Of course you could use decimeters. 20 and 17 is easier. But when I want non-exactness, I prefer fractions that are easier to relate in my head.


    I can see what you mean, but I believe this comes entirely from your familiarity with the units. If you ask me how do I relate 2m to 1.678m, the answer to me is simple: by a little over 32cm, which I can easily visualize because these are the units I have been using my whole life.

    You actually made this a little more evident to me when you mentioned decimeters - you see, they're part of the metric system, but we don't really use them much. We normally measure things in milimeters, centimeters, meters or Kilometers - decimeters, decameters and hectometers are not commonly used. So when you say 20dm, since it's not one of the units I commonly use, I have to first convert it to meters or centimeters before I can actually make sense of it. BUT, unlike converting from standard / imperial, in this case I just move the decimal point.

    xaade:

    Yes, you could say 5/12 is bigger than 1/3 faster if you just compare the decimals, but it's more than just if one is bigger, it's bigger by how much. Ok, .41666 - .33333 = .08333. But how useful is .0833? Does that mean anything to you? It doesn't to me. 5/12 - 1/3 = 5/12 - 4/12 = 1/12. 1/12. I just prefer that number. I immediately know that 1/12 is 1/4 of 1/3. And if I was cooking, it's more helpful to have that in my head and have a 1/12 measuring cup, than to have my measuring cups labelled .08333.

    But I guess I'm just biased.


    I do believe this is exactly that: bias, from habit. Your measuring cups are graduated 1/12, 1/6, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 3/4; our measuring cups are graduated 50ml, 100ml, 150ml, 200ml, 250ml. I'm as apt at juggling these numbers to get the amount I need as you are with your fractions, based on practice, habit and familiarity. If I'm somehow in the situation that I need to add 0.0833 liters of something to my recipe, I'll just add a little less than 100ml - I'm sure the end result will be acceptable.

    In the end, to me it all comes to this: if I go to, for example, McDonald's, I wont ask for 300ml or 500ml of coke (or, say 16 US fl oz of coke). I'll ask for a small coke or a medium coke. I know what it means and they know what it means - but it doesn't mean "McDonald's small soda" should become an international standard of volume measurement outside of McDonald's.
  • Flaming Shearer 2013-07-09 15:38
    miko:
    TRWTF is definitely the murican AM/PM over-complication of it all. Why bother? Why not just give in and do like the rest of the world? The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day. Simple as that.

    Please convert to the metric system already, so we can speak to each other without confusion... "1 inch is 0.083333333 feet" and "1 cup is 0.0625 gallons" who can keep track of those decimal values? How do you even remember if it's 0.0833 or 0.0625?


    But noooo... The day does not end at 24:00. It ends just before that.
  • trtrwtf 2013-07-09 16:10
    Horses for courses. The sort of measuring system you use depends on your needs. If you're baking bread, you don't need precision - 2 to one flour to water, by volume, a small amount of yeast, a correct amount of salt (~1 tsp per loaf, or so). Mix well, let sit overnight, and bake in a Dutch oven (preheated to ~450 or 500 F)

    If you're making pastries or cakes, you might want more precision. Use a good scale, keep track of what you do so your experiments are repeatable.

    What's to worry about? Use the thing that works best.
  • Wyrm 2013-07-09 16:18
    In this "imperial vs metric" war, why did nobody mention that the problem is NOT the 1 foot = 12 inches conversion. The problem is the inconsistency: 1 foot = 12 inches, then 1 yard = 3 feet, then 1 mile = 1,760 yard...
    Numbers are completely random: how can you seriously build anything consistent there?

    Not to mention reference points:
    0 Celsius is clear: freezing point of water at normal pressure. (yes, "normal pressure" is part of the official definition and is itself well-defined.); 100 Celsius is the boiling point of the exact same element in the same conditions.
    0 Farenheit is the freezing point of a mixture of water and ammonium chloride; then 32 F (why this value, exactly?) is the freezing point of water. I've even read the definition of Farenheit was based on three points (for a linear scale?) the third point being "the human body temperature". (whose? how is that a constant?)

    Now, I could agree with a base 12 system, save for two points:
    - the inconsistency I mentioned above (the imperial distance system is NOT base 12, not to mention weights and volumes);
    - the simple fact that we use a decimal numeric system, so base 10 scales are... well... more consistent.
  • Heavy Zed 2013-07-09 16:25
    If you're going to calculate "hours after midnight or hours after noon" from a 24 hour time, that's a modulo. So the operator you want is %, as in
    $hour = $hour % 12
  • Miles Davis 2013-07-09 16:37
    Wyrm:
    In this "imperial vs metric" war, why did nobody mention that the problem is NOT the 1 foot = 12 inches conversion. The problem is the inconsistency: 1 foot = 12 inches, then 1 yard = 3 feet, then 1 mile = 1,760 yard...
    Numbers are completely random: how can you seriously build anything consistent there?

    Not to mention reference points:
    0 Celsius is clear: freezing point of water at normal pressure. (yes, "normal pressure" is part of the official definition and is itself well-defined.); 100 Celsius is the boiling point of the exact same element in the same conditions.
    0 Farenheit is the freezing point of a mixture of water and ammonium chloride; then 32 F (why this value, exactly?) is the freezing point of water. I've even read the definition of Farenheit was based on three points (for a linear scale?) the third point being "the human body temperature". (whose? how is that a constant?)

    Now, I could agree with a base 12 system, save for two points:
    - the inconsistency I mentioned above (the imperial distance system is NOT base 12, not to mention weights and volumes);
    - the simple fact that we use a decimal numeric system, so base 10 scales are... well... more consistent.


    A mile is 8 furlongs, a furlong is 10 chains, a chain is 4 rods, and a rod is 5.5 yards or 16.5 feet. These date back to when map surveyors would measure land using actual metal rods and chains, hence the names. Three miles is a league, which is about how long you will walk in an hour's time.

    It's arbitrary and stupid today, of course -- historical systems of measurement basically stem from one profession and then get generalized out to where they don't quite fit; hence different ounces for gold, for other solid objects, and for liquids, just to throw one example out there. Historically, there would be no need for conversion -- a goldsmith would use the Troy ounce and an apothecary would use a different one. How many pecks to a firkin? They're both volume units! Who cares? A peck is what you use when you're measuring vegetables and a firkin is what you use when you measure beer.

    Anyway, Americans get a bad rep for this, but a lot of engineering projects are all SI these days. (SI is still arbitrary, of course, but it's at least less stupid). All of our scientists are using metric and it's been a requirement in most Federal government work ever since that time that the Mars Climate Orbiter turned into the Mars Climate Impactor. Check the nutritional information on food -- it's all milligrams and (kilo)Calories. The road signs are all still miles, of course; mustn't disrupt the proles, but really, who cares about that?
  • Nakilad 2013-07-09 16:39
    Roby McAndrew:
    EatenByAGrue:
    Zagyg:
    Ode To A Small Lump Of Green Putty I Found In My Armpit One Midsummer Morning


    That's nothing - check out this bit by Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings:

    The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
    They lay. They rotted. They turned
    Around occasionally.
    Bits of flesh dropped off them from
    Time to time.
    And sank into the pool's mire.
    They also smelt a great deal.


    The Scottish Bard is still the greatest:

    Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silv’ry Tay!
    Alas! I am very sorry to say
    That ninety lives have been taken away
    On the last Sabbath day of 1879,
    Which will be remember’d for a very long time.

    etc...
    William Topaz McGonagall - The only poet I know to comment on civil engineering


    'Share and Enjoy'
  • Heavy Zed 2013-07-09 16:41
    Threads like this are fascinating. I'm betting very few people engaged in this discussion about measurement systems are actually reading anything they haven't seen before. They probably even realize this with some amount of frustration because "it's so simple, why doesn't everybody see my point of view?".

    To me that leads to the conclusion that, regardless of what value these particular arguments have in terms of their appeal to logic, utility, or whatever, their presentation can have no impact on the current state of the discussion, therefore it is no use repeating them.

    Given the frequency of aimless discussion threads like this one it seems this conclusion is either very uncommonly arrived at or is recognized and then ignored and I can't say I really understand why.
  • trtrwtf 2013-07-09 16:45
    Heavy Zed:
    If you're going to calculate "hours after midnight or hours after noon" from a 24 hour time, that's a modulo. So the operator you want is %, as in
    $hour = $hour % 12


    You mean like "clock arithmetic"?
  • Miles Davis 2013-07-09 16:47
    Clearly we should all be using Planck units. I'm going to go have about 8e103 Planck Volumes of beer now.
  • Heavy Zed 2013-07-09 16:48
    7eggert:
    xaade:
    Steve The Cynic:
    JC:
    TRWTF is Americans using cups for measuring cooking ingredients.
    Especially things like flour, which can vary in density quite significantly depending on if it's sifted, how well packed it is in the packed etc.

    I agree 100% with that. However the US tendency to measure liquids in recipes in cups is why I still have some US cup-fraction measuring scoops at home. It's moderately annoying.


    I suppose you could keep a small scale and measure by grams.


    Now let's read the recipe ... three cups of water ... I'll use three grams. Three spoons of oil ... I'll use three grams ... why the didn't it work out?


    Because cooking oil is less dense than water and you are intentionally misunderstanding the suggestion anyway.
  • off by one 2013-07-09 17:04
    Technically, a day begins at 00:00:00 and ends at 23:59:59 --- you have an off-by-one error.


    And you have another off by one error. If you're in UTC, some days end at 23:59:60.
  • real-modo 2013-07-09 17:16
    It's comment threads like this one that keep me reading The Daily WTF.

    A piece on an abysmal piece of code (WTFs: not using the language's built-in function; no unit test--or any test; and blithely using the same value as a string, a number, and a string again on consecutive lines) generates a comment thread that almost immediately spins out of control, leaping into violent arguments about the cases required by different Latin prepositions, cooking recipes and the merits of the metric system.

    Truly brillant, people! Bonuses all round.
  • Miles Davis 2013-07-09 17:18
    off by one:
    Technically, a day begins at 00:00:00 and ends at 23:59:59 --- you have an off-by-one error.


    And you have another off by one error. If you're in UTC, some days end at 23:59:60.


    The existence of leap seconds is easily the worst decision that any standards body has made in the past fifty years.
  • Anonymous Douche Bag 2013-07-09 17:45
    What about when $hour == 12? $hour % 12 == 0. Hey, at least it's right more often.
  • Hasse 2013-07-09 17:51
    miko:
    Steve The Cynic:

    Of course, if you are worrying about the conversion between cups and gallons, you're probably doing something wrong. (Notably: why the hell are you measuring cooking ingredients - the normal stuff you measure in cups - in **gallons**?)


    You are right - something is wrong when you measure in cups or gallons ;)
    Different households have different cups - some even have different sized cups for coffee and for tea.

    No, I wouldn't know which to use, I heard there is also a difference between dry and wet ounces, and that fact alone is enough for me to NOT trust those scales.
    I recently saw a graph of how much sugar is in a coke bottle, but the coke bottle volume was measured in ounces (I think) and the amount of sugar in it was measured in cups - how is that in any way relevant to each other? You guys mix your scales all the time, and it is so confusing.

    1 cubic metre of water = 1000 litres = 1000 kilos.
    100 degrees, water turns to gas. 0 degrees, water turns to ice. (under normal pressure)
    Same scale. Always 10 based. Simple. You should try it! :)


    There where times where the measurements where dependent on the current king. The lenght of he's foot was the foot measurement and the lengt of his underarm was an el. Grain was measured with top and salt evend. Past dates and times can be challenging as every country changed from julian to gregorian on different years and dates. Time zones are intresting as they might shift different for different countries from year to year (Riyad: +3.07 1988 and 1989)
  • pjt33 2013-07-09 18:18
    Roby McAndrew:
    William Topaz McGonagall - The only poet I know to comment on civil engineering

    There's the famous Betjeman poem on Slough, although I suppose that's as much about culture as about civil engineering.
  • Matt Westwood 2013-07-09 18:28
    EatenByAGrue:
    Zagyg:
    Ode To A Small Lump Of Green Putty I Found In My Armpit One Midsummer Morning


    That's nothing - check out this bit by Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings:

    The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
    They lay. They rotted. They turned
    Around occasionally.
    Bits of flesh dropped off them from
    Time to time.
    And sank into the pool's mire.
    They also smelt a great deal.


    Not sure the poetry cited is actually by her or not, but Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings is an actual person who once sent poetry to Douglas Adams. He reviewed it in the cruellest way he possibly could, which sums him up as being a bit of an egotistical knob-head when it comes down to it.
  • I kill them 2013-07-09 18:33
    Bad poetry , but nowhere near Vorgon level.
  • aapis 2013-07-09 18:38
    I've never seen anyone defend the imperial system before. Ever. In 24 years of life, including copious amounts of time spent on the internet, this is the first time. I don't know if I should be impressed or depressed. Probably a little of both.

    I've also never seen someone just straight up not understand the metric system like this. What's 1/4 of 10? Are you serious?
  • Matt Westwood 2013-07-09 18:39
    drake:
    Everybody should get over themselves. The easiest measuring system to use is the one you grew up using. Converting, especially as an adult, is difficult no matter what direction you are going.


    It is if you're terminally thick, of course. Any adult human being with the remotest fragment of intelligence has no problem adapting to take advantage of changes to its environment. Anyone else deserves to suffer the consequences caused by that inability and not demand that the nimbler of intellect be forced into inefficient practices.
  • the river eating government cheese 2013-07-09 18:59
    aapis:
    I've also never seen someone just straight up not understand the metric system like this. What's 1/4 of 10? Are you serious?


    I know rite? 1/4 of 10 is OBVIOUSLY easy: 10/4.

    Captcha: abico. I think you need to borrow my abicos to help you with your "mathses".
  • dynedain 2013-07-09 19:51
    wyrm:
    In this "imperial vs metric" war, why did nobody mention that the problem is NOT the 1 foot = 12 inches conversion. The problem is the inconsistency: 1 foot = 12 inches, then 1 yard = 3 feet, then 1 mile = 1,760 yard...
    Numbers are completely random: how can you seriously build anything consistent there?


    Imperial units are based on every day measures that easily map to a mental understanding of ergonomics and the world around you. Very helpful in the days when access to precise measuring tools was limited. They're still usefull today for building a quick guestimate of things:

    1 inch = the length of one segment of your thumb
    1 foot = the length of your forearm from your wrist to the crook of your elbow. Also approximately the length of your foot. Obviously sizes varies dramatically, so assume a normal adult male (which would have been relatively homogenous within a culture)
    1 yard = the length of your stride, or half your armspan
    1 mile = a 20 minute walk

    You're right in that the relationship of the numbers is arbitrary, but so's the relationship of seconds to a day, days to a year, etc. It's all just based on observations of the world around us and not designed to fit a particular number system like metric.
  • Darth Paul 2013-07-09 21:30
    JAPH:
    The metric system is only more useful when dealing with powers of 10. How do you represent 1/3 of a meter? No matter how many decimal places you display it's only an approximation.


    That's what someone recently said on a forum about Pi. Simple: you use as many decimal places as you need. In the case of Pi, 39 decimal places will measure the circumference of the visible universe to within the diameter of 1 hydrogen atom. So, for most projects, somewhat fewer than 39 decimal places should suffice.

    I've done a lot of measurements for building and drawing things in my time, and most often I need fine measurements. mm and ml are better because they are small whole units. It is easier to define something as, say (n)mm, than use n/32" or n/64" as a unit.

    If you are cutting a metre of wood into thirds, you only need as many decimal places as would take you to the width of the saw cut (not as many as you might think).
  • Darth Paul 2013-07-09 21:33
    Rnd(:
    So what about 1/5 foot? Or 1/5 of gallon?

    +1

    Captcha: secundum
    I secundum this motion.
  • Lincoln Kiwi 2013-07-09 22:30
    The REAL WTF is the fact that the poster did not find the bug during testing and closed the issue as 'could not reproduce" LAZY LAZY LAZY and gives IT a really bad rap with users.
  • S 2013-07-09 22:51
    dynedain:
    1 mile = a 20 minute walk


    Which is a perfect demonstration of why such measures are beyond useless, given a) walking speeds vary hugely between different people, and b) how accurately are you measuring your 20 minutes?
  • kiloseconds 2013-07-09 22:57
    If you are going to go all the way with metric, shouldn't you demand a clock delimited by kilo-seconds?
  • staticsan 2013-07-09 23:31
    Yes, there is. But this conversion was from a string representation, which one should really avoid doing in PHP.

  • Prof Foop 2013-07-09 23:49
    The standard measures are in the binary system. A cup is 2^3 ounces, a pint is 2^4 ounces, a quart is 2^5 ounces, and a gallon is 2^7 ounces.

    The Babylonians originated the base-12 time of day system, because they had 6 fingers on each hand.
  • eric76 2013-07-10 00:56
    Bring Back TopCod3r:
    True, but thanks to rob, I am now also aware of the lesser WTF of it showing 12 AM not 12 PM, and also of course 00 AM not 12 AM.


    Properly speaking, 12 noon is 12 M.
  • Captain Oblivious 2013-07-10 00:58
    miko:
    TRWTF is definitely the murican AM/PM over-complication of it all. Why bother? Why not just give in and do like the rest of the world? The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day. Simple as that.

    Please convert to the metric system already, so we can speak to each other without confusion... "1 inch is 0.083333333 feet" and "1 cup is 0.0625 gallons" who can keep track of those decimal values? How do you even remember if it's 0.0833 or 0.0625?


    TRWTF is metric time.
  • Hannes 2013-07-10 01:38
    Heavy Zed:
    To me that leads to the conclusion that, regardless of what value these particular arguments have in terms of their appeal to logic, utility, or whatever, their presentation can have no impact on the current state of the discussion, therefore it is no use repeating them.


    Please don't spoil the fun for everyone here.
  • Norman Diamond 2013-07-10 02:16
    ¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL:
    Jalopy:
    Bulk cooking springs to mind. This recipe says 1 cup of stock per person. I'm cooking for 50. I'm not going to pour 50 cups separately.
    Let's cook with Google!
    Good thing this is the site for WTFs.

    http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=50%20cups%20in%20gallons
    gives the same result as
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=50%20cups%20in%20gallons

    Fortunately it says US cups and US gallons, so we know Google Canada is doing it wrong.

    Even more fortunately, there are dropdowns to correct ... half of it. Google Canada lets us select imperial gallons but not imperial cups.

    An imperial cup contains 8 imperial ounces. There are 2.5 cups in a pint. There are 160 ounces in a gallon.

    A Japanese cup is 200ml. A Japanese gallon doesn't exist. I wonder what Google Japan's syntax is for unit conversions.
  • Norman Diamond 2013-07-10 03:43
    jay:
    miko:
    1 cubic metre of water = 1000 litres = 1000 kilos.
    Why do you say 1 cubic meter OF WATER = 1000 liters? I believe 1 cubic meter of sand, or 1 cubic meter of iron, or 1 cubic meter of chicken brains, all would also be 1000 liters.
    Does "1 cubic metre = 1000 litres = 1000 kilos" work for sand, iron, or chicken brains?

    In the US you don't even get 1 ounce of water = 1 ounce of water, when you measure it and weigh it.
  • Norman Diamond 2013-07-10 03:46
      if ($hour > 12) {
    
    $hour = 24 - $hour;
    $ampm = "PM";
    } else {
    $ampm = "AM";
    should be
      if ($hour > 12) {
    
    $hour = $hour - 12;
    $ampm = "PM";
    } else {
    $hour = 12 - hour;
    $ampm = "AM";
    'cause 0:00 in computer time is 12 hours before noon, 1:00 in computer time is 11 hours before noon, ..., 12:00 in computer time is 0 hours before noon, 12:00 in computer time is 0 hours after noon, ....
  • Steve The Cynic 2013-07-10 04:36
    miko:
    Steve The Cynic:

    miko:
    No, I wouldn't know which to use, I heard there is also a difference between dry and wet ounces, and that fact alone is enough for me to NOT trust those scales.

    It's easy. A dry ounce is a unit of force, usually used for weights, while a fluid (not wet) ounce is a unit of volume.


    Kilogram is a unit of weight. Litre is a unit of volume.
    1 Kilogram of water = 1 Litre of water = 1 cubic decimeter of water. Wet. :)

    You like FAIL points, don't you? The kilogram is a unit of mass. Weight is a force, and therefore measured in *newtons*. In most parts of the Earth's surface, a kilogram of anything can be approximated as 9.8 newtons.
    miko:
    Steve The Cynic:
    miko:
    1 cubic metre of water = 1000 litres = 1000 kilos.
    100 degrees, water turns to gas. 0 degrees, water turns to ice. (under normal pressure)
    Same scale. Always 10 based. Simple. You should try it! :)

    Actually, water turns to gas at any temperature below the critical point, if the partial pressure of water vapour is low enough. It's called evaporation above the melting point, and sublimation below. You meant to say that water *boils* at 100 degrees centigrade. (And that centigrade part is important because the F scale is also degrees. Alternatively, go 100% SI, where water melts (at standard pressure) at 273.15 K (not degrees, because the kelvin unit is not a degrees unit).)


    Yeah. That's why I said "normal pressure". Of course pressure differs during the vaporization process, but if you push the temperature of your water to above 100 degrees celcius ("centigrade"), you will end up having all gas. And if you drop the temperature of all the water to below 100 you will have water again (or ice if you go below 0 as well). You know this. And you know it's what I meant.

    Pff. If you want to say that it boils at 100degC at one atmosphere ambient pressure, then say so. For preference using the word 'boils'.

    And if it's what you meant, you were wrong. If you cool your cloud of steam to 37degC (human body temperature), just under 1psi of it will remain in vapour form. (This is the pressure at the Armstrong limit, around 63000 feet altitude. If you get higher than that, unprotected human life is impossible because exposed bodily fluids (saliva, the water on the surface of your eyes, etc.) boil away. Of course, low pressure kills people below that altitude even with pure oxygen to breathe, but at/below 1/16 of an atmosphere, you die even quicker.)
  • Guestimate 2013-07-10 05:00
    Technically, cellocgw is incorrect. The day ends at 23:59:59.999999999999

    Technically, you are also incorrect. "ending at" and "last defined unit in" does not mean the same.

    If I say that the schoolyard ends at the wall of that adjoining building, do you than truly think that that wall is part of the schoolyard to, and you should be able to place yourself where that wall is ? If so, you can get a darwin-award at my place. :-)

    If not, why do you guys think that when the day ends at 24:00.00 hours that that second is also part of that day ?

    What if I remove the minutes and seconds from it -- the day starts at 00 hours and ends at 24 hours -- is than suddenly the whole first hour of the next day part of the current one ? Really ?

    Also, when you say that a day starts at 00:00.00 hours and ends at 24:00.00 hours inclusive you would have a second overlap (24:00.00 equals 00:00.00). Or the day would need not start at 00:00.00, but at 00:00.01, which is not quite logical ...
  • Sargon II 2013-07-10 06:17
    xaade:


    Addendum (2013-07-09 10:18):
    10 was a number we should have abandoned when we could start recording amounts. 10 is only useful because we only have 10 fingers. What's the fractional granularity of 10. 1/10, 1/5, 1/2. That's it. 1, 2, and 5. With 12 we get 1/12, 1/6, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, or 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6. We only miss 5.

    It's much easier for humans to use fractions of 1/x or (x-1)/x. Other fractions are meaningless when we hear them. How do you compare 5/12 to 1/3 or 2/3? Takes a second?

    How do you compare 4/10 to 9/10? We can compare 4/10 to 8/10 quickly because 4/8 is 1/2. But 4/9? Not that useful.


    We use decimal because it allows us to write using only 10 symbols. If you had to use a sexagesimal counting system, you would need 60 different symbols (complicated leraning when your alphabet has twentysomething to thirty something glyohs) or use compound symbols, which is a mess like the roman numerals.

    So we use decimal system just because of historical convenience (and also maybe because we have 10 fingers).

    Captcha: facilisi, of course
  • Mike5 2013-07-10 07:28
    Peter:
    Steve The Cynic:
    a US pint is 16 US fluid ounces, while an Imperial pint (the only way to measure beer, even if you call it 568ml) is 20 Imperial fluid ounces
    As a child, I was taught the mnemonic "a pint of pure water weighs a pound and a quarter" for the relationship between pints and fluid ounces. Years later, I was delighted to encounter the American equivalent "a pint's a pound the world around".

    Where "the world around" means "in the USA".


    Well, QED. Everyone knows that outside the USA "there be dragons".
  • Ferret 2013-07-10 08:00
    Oh freddled gruntbuggly
    Thy micturations are to thee
    Like plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee

    Groont! I implore thee
    My foonting turlingdromes
    Or I will render thee to the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon
    See if I don't!

    (only poem I know off by heart)
  • Hasse 2013-07-10 09:00
    Guestimate:
    Technically, cellocgw is incorrect. The day ends at 23:59:59.999999999999

    Technically, you are also incorrect. "ending at" and "last defined unit in" does not mean the same.

    If I say that the schoolyard ends at the wall of that adjoining building, do you than truly think that that wall is part of the schoolyard to, and you should be able to place yourself where that wall is ? If so, you can get a darwin-award at my place. :-)

    If not, why do you guys think that when the day ends at 24:00.00 hours that that second is also part of that day ?

    What if I remove the minutes and seconds from it -- the day starts at 00 hours and ends at 24 hours -- is than suddenly the whole first hour of the next day part of the current one ? Really ?

    Also, when you say that a day starts at 00:00.00 hours and ends at 24:00.00 hours inclusive you would have a second overlap (24:00.00 equals 00:00.00). Or the day would need not start at 00:00.00, but at 00:00.01, which is not quite logical ...


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremum
  • Bring Back TopCod3r 2013-07-10 09:52
    trtrwtf:
    Horses for courses. The sort of measuring system you use depends on your needs. If you're baking bread, you don't need precision - 2 to one flour to water, by volume, a small amount of yeast, a correct amount of salt (~1 tsp per loaf, or so). Mix well, let sit overnight, and bake in a Dutch oven (preheated to ~450 or 500 F)

    If you're making pastries or cakes, you might want more precision. Use a good scale, keep track of what you do so your experiments are repeatable.

    What's to worry about? Use the thing that works best.


    I really hope 'Dutch oven' means something else Stateside.
  • Bring Back TopCod3r 2013-07-10 09:52
    trtrwtf:
    Horses for courses. The sort of measuring system you use depends on your needs. If you're baking bread, you don't need precision - 2 to one flour to water, by volume, a small amount of yeast, a correct amount of salt (~1 tsp per loaf, or so). Mix well, let sit overnight, and bake in a Dutch oven (preheated to ~450 or 500 F)

    If you're making pastries or cakes, you might want more precision. Use a good scale, keep track of what you do so your experiments are repeatable.

    What's to worry about? Use the thing that works best.


    I really hope 'Dutch oven' means something else Stateside.
  • Essex Kitten 2013-07-10 09:59
    JAPH:
    The imperial units were fashioned to be easily divided.

    The metric system is only more useful when dealing with powers of 10. How do you represent 1/3 of a meter? No matter how many decimal places you display it's only an approximation.


    Oh... I'm so glad that the Imperial system is precise to the femtometre when divided, unlike that pesky metric system. I mean, it's easy to see how 1/3 of a mile is so much more precise than 1/3 of a km, or 1/3 of a foot doesn't need any approximation when measuring it, which isn't the case for 1/3 of a metre, right?
  • miko 2013-07-10 10:27
    Flaming Shearer:
    miko:
    The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day.

    But noooo... The day does not end at 24:00. It ends just before that.

    For you maybe. I can party a little longer ;)
  • da Doctah 2013-07-10 11:52
    Mike5:
    Everyone knows that outside the USA "there be dragons".
    Oh, there be Dragons in the USA too. In fact, just about a hundred miles away from where I'm sitting right now, there's a famous couple of Dragons. You may know them better as the Captain and Tennille.
  • jay 2013-07-10 13:24
    Heavy Zed:
    Threads like this are fascinating. I'm betting very few people engaged in this discussion about measurement systems are actually reading anything they haven't seen before. They probably even realize this with some amount of frustration because "it's so simple, why doesn't everybody see my point of view?".

    To me that leads to the conclusion that, regardless of what value these particular arguments have in terms of their appeal to logic, utility, or whatever, their presentation can have no impact on the current state of the discussion, therefore it is no use repeating them.

    Given the frequency of aimless discussion threads like this one it seems this conclusion is either very uncommonly arrived at or is recognized and then ignored and I can't say I really understand why.


    If by "use repeating them" you mean "likelihood that people on one side will convince people on the other side to change their minds", well then of course the conversation is no use. Who said it was? The purpose of such conversations is not to change minds, it's the sheer entertainment value of the argument.

    I suppose next you'll say that listening to great music has no purpose because it doesn't increase the output of steel mills.

    Sheesh! What a pragmatist!
  • lesle 2013-07-10 13:55
    Back in the day, bus, train, & airplane schedules were printed in lightface for A.M. and boldface for P.M.

    Noon being neither, that's why there were so many arrivals at 11:59 (lightface) and so many departures at 12:01 (boldface).
  • hank 2013-07-10 15:36
    Surely the client must have been imagining things, Michael thought as he closed the bug
    Surely such informative diagnosis should've been included in the ticket resolution, either before or after the "tell them to go fsck themselves" part?
  • Jonathan 2013-07-10 15:36
    Oh nice, so time goes backwards from 12:00AM after noon.
  • Paul Neumann 2013-07-10 18:53
    All these comments and yet, nobody has remarked that 11/24 of the conditions would have been incorrect. (That equates to 5 1/2 in/ft or 45.3̅3 cM/M for standard and metric comparison.) For all the extensive replication attempt, it would appear a random sampling of no more than 2 records had been performed before closing as unable to replicate.

    TRWTF is treating a commercial program like an open source bugzilla.
  • Dan 2013-07-10 19:40
    BrunoTR:
    Your measuring cups are graduated 1/12, 1/6, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 3/4;


    Our measuring cups mark the thirds and quarters, but no recipe ever asks for 1/12 cup; it would be "4 teaspoons" instead.
  • goochrules 2013-07-10 23:03
    even better is the DateTime::createFromFormat function, since given the name of the user's function (getTimeFromISODateTime), the format of the incoming datetime appears to be known.
  • JakartaDean 2013-07-11 01:53
    You can bake bread in a Dutch oven, but it doesn't turn out great. Best is in a campfire, where you can put hot coals on the lid and approximate an oven. If you get the pot hot first the contained steam will make a nicer crust.

    Interesting (to me) the use of the word Dutch here comes from the Anglo-English wars of the 17th century, when "Dutch" was used to deprecate many things, so a Dutch oven is a poor oven. My favorite: "Dutch treat" for not paying for your own meal.
  • JustSomeGuy 2013-07-11 02:02
    miko:
    Steve The Cynic:

    Of course, if you are worrying about the conversion between cups and gallons, you're probably doing something wrong. (Notably: why the hell are you measuring cooking ingredients - the normal stuff you measure in cups - in **gallons**?)


    You are right - something is wrong when you measure in cups or gallons ;)
    Different households have different cups - some even have different sized cups for coffee and for tea.

    No, I wouldn't know which to use, I heard there is also a difference between dry and wet ounces, and that fact alone is enough for me to NOT trust those scales.
    I recently saw a graph of how much sugar is in a coke bottle, but the coke bottle volume was measured in ounces (I think) and the amount of sugar in it was measured in cups - how is that in any way relevant to each other? You guys mix your scales all the time, and it is so confusing.

    1 cubic metre of water = 1000 litres = 1000 kilos.
    100 degrees, water turns to gas. 0 degrees, water turns to ice. (under normal pressure)
    Same scale. Always 10 based. Simple. You should try it! :)


    A cup doesn't happen to mean whatever cup you have lying around, any more than a foot is the length of YOUR foot. A cup is 250ml.
  • Bring Back TopCod3r 2013-07-11 09:00
    lesle:
    Back in the day, bus, train, & airplane schedules were printed in lightface for A.M. and boldface for P.M.

    Noon being neither, that's why there were so many arrivals at 11:59 (lightface) and so many departures at 12:01 (boldface).


    What cretin came up with that system? I still see flights with departure times of 00:01, perhaps to avoid date ambiguity?
  • RandomGuy 2013-07-11 09:35
    Bring Back TopCod3r:
    lesle:
    Back in the day, bus, train, & airplane schedules were printed in lightface for A.M. and boldface for P.M.

    Noon being neither, that's why there were so many arrivals at 11:59 (lightface) and so many departures at 12:01 (boldface).


    What cretin came up with that system? I still see flights with departure times of 00:01, perhaps to avoid date ambiguity?


    Some Guy I know sometimes suggests meeting at (e.g.) 12:75 when he means 13:15. And I saw actual digital clocks which displayed 23:59--24:00--24:01 ... and at some point switched to 0:0x.
    It looks very buggy, but there is actually no ambiguity there.
  • RandomGuy 2013-07-11 09:43
    JustSomeGuy:
    A cup doesn't happen to mean whatever cup you have lying around, any more than a foot is the length of YOUR foot. A cup is 250ml.

    Or 236.5882365 ml, or 240 ml, or 284 ml, ...
  • Zemm 2013-07-11 10:15
    Bring Back TopCod3r:
    I really hope 'Dutch oven' means something else Stateside.


    Pass wind in bed then put the covers over your bedmate's head?
  • Zemm 2013-07-11 10:19
    trtrwtf:
    If you're baking bread, you don't need precision - 2 to one flour to water, by volume, a small amount of yeast, a correct amount of salt (~1 tsp per loaf, or so).


    But then something similar to bread, pizza bases, do need precision. Even 100mL of water makes a difference in a ~16kg batch. But then the temperature of the water and ambient temperature makes a difference too.

    I used to make pizza bases by the hundreds when I worked in a certain chain pizza shop during my uni years.
  • trtrwtf 2013-07-11 11:13
    Prof Foop:
    The standard measures are in the binary system. A cup is 2^3 ounces, a pint is 2^4 ounces, a quart is 2^5 ounces, and a gallon is 2^7 ounces.

    The Babylonians originated the base-12 time of day system, because they had 6 fingers on each hand.


    ... which proves that (a) Lamarck was right about inheritance of acquired characteristics, (b) modern man descends from Swedish sawmill operators, and (c) human beings are intrinsically ambidextrous.
  • trtrwtf 2013-07-11 11:16
    Bring Back TopCod3r:

    I really hope 'Dutch oven' means something else Stateside.


    Now I really want to know what it means elsewhere.

    Here it means a large, deep cast iron pot, usually enameled, with a heavy and close-fitting lid.
    (which makes a great environment for baking, since the cast iron radiates heat evenly from all sides, and the heavy lid retains the moisture from the dough, producing a glorious crust)
  • JJ 2013-07-11 12:32
    So any time after 13:00:00 & before 00:00:00 would be wrong. Maybe he tested it out of this time range. Still very bad. tch tch tch
  • Hannes 2013-07-11 13:01
    trtrwtf:
    Bring Back TopCod3r:

    I really hope 'Dutch oven' means something else Stateside.


    Now I really want to know what it means elsewhere.


    A friend from the UK told me once, that a "dutch oven" means: "Trapping" another person under a blanket (so that his/her head is covered) and than farting under said blanket.
  • jay 2013-07-11 13:11
    Hannes:
    trtrwtf:
    Bring Back TopCod3r:

    I really hope 'Dutch oven' means something else Stateside.


    Now I really want to know what it means elsewhere.


    A friend from the UK told me once, that a "dutch oven" means: "Trapping" another person under a blanket (so that his/her head is covered) and than farting under said blanket.


    Wow, thank you for sharing that. This knowledge has truly enriched my life.
  • Kuba 2013-07-11 16:14
    Steve The Cynic:
    I find it easier to remember 12 inches to the foot and 8 pints to the gallon which combines with 2 cups to the pint to give 16 cups to the gallon.

    Of course, if you are worrying about the conversion between cups and gallons, you're probably doing something wrong. (Notably: why the hell are you measuring cooking ingredients - the normal stuff you measure in cups - in **gallons**?)
    Well, you might need to if you want to serve pancakes mixed in a cement mixer. Of course this being in Europe you measure everything in metric units and use decimal fractions. The imperial system is built around binary fractions - I find it hilarious that people that work with computers haven't figured it out. Nor have they figured out that usually the way to notate binary fractions isn't using decimal fractions. Binary fractions are nice rationals that are easy to deal with, I find that you don't ever have to use decimal fractions in an imperial kitchen.

    The photo I meant to link: www dot mmpoznan dot pl slash photo slash 1813125 and fuck akismet, by the way. Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck. Fuck. And fuck some more. Oh, have I said fuck akismet yet?
  • Old Greek 2013-07-11 16:44
    So this guy invented the boustrophedon approach to daytime. I just wonder why the US doesn't use this system, as they clearly are optimizing their time- and date-keeping for WTFiness.

    CAPTCHA: eros
  • urza9814 2013-07-11 19:27
    miko:
    TRWTF is definitely the murican AM/PM over-complication of it all. Why bother? Why not just give in and do like the rest of the world? The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day. Simple as that.

    Please convert to the metric system already, so we can speak to each other without confusion... "1 inch is 0.083333333 feet" and "1 cup is 0.0625 gallons" who can keep track of those decimal values? How do you even remember if it's 0.0833 or 0.0625?


    It's not a decimal system so OF COURSE nobody remembers the decimal value. And yes, it's stupid, and I agree that we should just go metric already...but there IS certainly logic to it. If I give you a liter bottle of water and ask you to fill it to the next smallest unit -- 1/10th of the bottle -- how accurate do you think that would be? It's hard to mentally divide something into ten. Imperial units are largely based on halves and thirds, which are much easier. Give me a bottle and I can fill it pretty close to halfway just by looking at it. Even a quarter. Two cups in a pint, two pints in a quart, and as the name implies, four quarts in a gallom. Nobody would EVER use 0.0625...we'd use 1/16, because they're fractional units. Which works pretty well for common usage, since it's much more likely you'll be halving or doubling a recipe than multiplying it by ten (note how I don't even know the word for 'multiply by ten', assuming we even have one, because it's so infrequently used.)

    Metric units are designed for science; Imperial units are designed for people.
  • urza9814 2013-07-11 20:08
    miko:

    Steve The Cynic:

    miko:
    No, I wouldn't know which to use, I heard there is also a difference between dry and wet ounces, and that fact alone is enough for me to NOT trust those scales.

    It's easy. A dry ounce is a unit of force, usually used for weights, while a fluid (not wet) ounce is a unit of volume.


    Kilogram is a unit of weight. Litre is a unit of volume.
    1 Kilogram of water = 1 Litre of water = 1 cubic decimeter of water. Wet. :)


    No, the NEWTON is a unit of weight. Kilograms measure mass.
  • trtrwtf 2013-07-12 10:45
    urza9814:

    Metric units are designed for science; Imperial units are designed for people.


    Bingo.

    And since they're freely convertible, it doesn't matter.

    For those that get really worked up about it, I'm working on an app for the google goggles that'll replace Imperial measures with metric in anything you happen to be looking at.
    The working title is the "Pretentious Fuckwad Eyeball Protection Scheme" but I'm open to other suggestions.
  • chubertdev 2013-07-12 13:15
    trtrwtf:
    urza9814:

    Metric units are designed for science; Imperial units are designed for people.


    Bingo.

    And since they're freely convertible, it doesn't matter.

    For those that get really worked up about it, I'm working on an app for the google goggles that'll replace Imperial measures with metric in anything you happen to be looking at.
    The working title is the "Pretentious Fuckwad Eyeball Protection Scheme" but I'm open to other suggestions.


    chap map app
  • Hannes 2013-07-13 10:38
    trtrwtf:
    urza9814:

    Metric units are designed for science; Imperial units are designed for people.


    Bingo.

    And since they're freely convertible, it doesn't matter.

    For those that get really worked up about it, I'm working on an app for the google goggles that'll replace Imperial measures with metric in anything you happen to be looking at.
    The working title is the "Pretentious Fuckwad Eyeball Protection Scheme" but I'm open to other suggestions.


    How about "People Inventing Stupid Schemes". The acronym would be fitting for the topic at hand. :)
  • Groucho Marx 2013-07-14 22:44
    Steve The Cynic:
    miko:
    TRWTF is definitely the murican AM/PM over-complication of it all. Why bother? Why not just give in and do like the rest of the world? The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day. Simple as that.

    Please convert to the metric system already, so we can speak to each other without confusion... "1 inch is 0.083333333 feet" and "1 cup is 0.0625 gallons" who can keep track of those decimal values? How do you even remember if it's 0.0833 or 0.0625?

    I find it easier to remember 12 inches to the foot and 8 pints to the gallon which combines with 2 cups to the pint to give 16 cups to the gallon.

    Of course, if you are worrying about the conversion between cups and gallons, you're probably doing something wrong. (Notably: why the hell are you measuring cooking ingredients - the normal stuff you measure in cups - in **gallons**?)
    "If it takes two pints to fill a quart, how many does it take to Philadelphia?"
  • Barfo Rama 2013-07-15 19:04
    Steve The Cynic:
    miko:
    TRWTF is definitely the murican AM/PM over-complication of it all. Why bother? Why not just give in and do like the rest of the world? The day starts at zero (00:00) and ends at 24 (24:00) because there are 24 hours in a day. Simple as that.

    Please convert to the metric system already, so we can speak to each other without confusion... "1 inch is 0.083333333 feet" and "1 cup is 0.0625 gallons" who can keep track of those decimal values? How do you even remember if it's 0.0833 or 0.0625?

    I find it easier to remember 12 inches to the foot and 8 pints to the gallon which combines with 2 cups to the pint to give 16 cups to the gallon.

    Of course, if you are worrying about the conversion between cups and gallons, you're probably doing something wrong. (Notably: why the hell are you measuring cooking ingredients - the normal stuff you measure in cups - in **gallons**?)


    That would be make lots of meth.
  • phpfiend 2013-07-16 14:14
    600 = 6:00 am
    6 = 6 (am)

    1400 = 2:00 pm
    24 - 14 = 10 (pm)

    1500 = 3:00 pm
    24 - 15 = 9 (pm)

    Solution: $hour = $hour - 12;
  • Michael 2013-07-18 18:21
    I recently started working at a new company, a small startup. The code has gone through many hands in the past year or two, most of whom are no longer with us. When I first started reading through the code I found just about that EXACT same function.