Interview by Proxy

  • newbie 2007-01-11 11:31
    nice story!
  • verisimilidude 2007-01-11 11:36
    10:30 central - you got it up early today. Thanks I needed it.
  • Dante 2007-01-11 11:56
    @ the last comment:

    I'm sure there's a story detailing the day that the IT department fucked with potential candidates by sending in a guy in a dirty white shirt and sandals to spout relational database optimizations at the potential candidates...
  • JRock 2007-01-11 12:06
    i had an interview with a distribution company some years back. after interviewing with the manager, the technical expert was ushered in to the room. this lady was missing many of her front teeth and her remaining teeth were brown and rotting as well as her gums. i thought i was going to puke. anyway, i couldn't look at her directly and proceeded to end the interview quickly and drive away from there as fast as possible.
  • cmccorvey 2007-01-11 12:10
    JRock:
    i had an interview with a distribution company some years back. after interviewing with the manager, the technical expert was ushered in to the room. this lady was missing many of her front teeth and her remaining teeth were brown and rotting as well as her gums. i thought i was going to puke. anyway, i couldn't look at her directly and proceeded to end the interview quickly and drive away from there as fast as possible.


    So, was this in the UK or the deep south of the good ol' US of A?
  • Drum D. 2007-01-11 12:11
    I like the parent-geeks who could have gotten the job themselves - well at least one of them ;)
  • Marion 2007-01-11 12:13
    JRock:
    i had an interview with a distribution company some years back. after interviewing with the manager, the technical expert was ushered in to the room. this lady was missing many of her front teeth and her remaining teeth were brown and rotting as well as her gums. i thought i was going to puke. anyway, i couldn't look at her directly and proceeded to end the interview quickly and drive away from there as fast as possible.


    That is really, really, insulting. I can't believe that's why you left, much less that you're admitting to it on here and telling the story. I'm a man damnit, I can't help it if I've gum disease and man boobs.
  • sammybaby 2007-01-11 12:18
    Marion:

    That is really, really, insulting. I can't believe that's why you left, much less that you're admitting to it on here and telling the story. I'm a man damnit, I can't help it if I've gum disease and man boobs.


    And come to work in drag.
  • CynicalTyler 2007-01-11 12:33
    While not technically an interview, I had an embarrassing/hilarious moment once at a career fair. I was walking around glancing at companies' posters to see who I was interested in talking to when a Navy officer began addressing me. Not wanting to be rude, I stopped and listened to his talk about all the wonderful benefits to signing away four years of your life. At the end, he asked me for my resume. Knowing that my resume had contact information on it and knowing that the armed forces employ some of the most annoying telemarketing/door-to-door schemes ever, I stammered: "Uhhh... I think I'm... going to hold on to it... Thanks!" and left. They didn't seem very amused.
  • grg 2007-01-11 12:35
    >One enthusiastic candidate waited for me to finish my disclaimer on the language, then immediately said, "Wow, that should be fun. I just finished a book on PROBOL last week!"


    Way back we posted a job for someone that knew UCSD Pascal.
    Someone sent in a resume claiming "8 years experience with USCD Pascal".

    He didnt get an interview as:

    (1) "USCD" is a common mangling of "UCSD", mainly seen with people who don't know or can't remember what UCSD stands for.

    (2) "UCSD Pascal" had only existed for about three years at that time. Maybe he put out 266% ??


  • Saladin 2007-01-11 12:40
    Did those parents think that the interviewer would just take them at their word that "he is a very good boy and do good job for you" without actually meeting the person or probing into any of his technical skills? LOL.
  • markerstore 2007-01-11 12:42
    grg:

    (2) "UCSD Pascal" had only existed for about three years at that time. Maybe he put out 266% ??


    Maybe candidates wouldn't lie about things like that if hiring managers didn't post jobs requiring "15 years of Java experience".
  • KattMan 2007-01-11 12:47
    Saladin:
    Did those parents think that the interviewer would just take them at their word that "he is a very good boy and do good job for you" without actually meeting the person or probing into any of his technical skills? LOL.


    Some middle eastern cultures see this practice as the norm. Those same cultures hold family honor above personal dreams.
  • Doug 2007-01-11 12:50
    sammybaby:
    Marion:

    That is really, really, insulting. I can't believe that's why you left, much less that you're admitting to it on here and telling the story. I'm a man damnit, I can't help it if I've gum disease and man boobs.


    And come to work in drag.


    Technically, he could have helped dressing in drag, that part was a personal choice.

    Captcha captcha.
  • Doug 2007-01-11 12:54
    grg:
    >One enthusiastic candidate waited for me to finish my disclaimer on the language, then immediately said, "Wow, that should be fun. I just finished a book on PROBOL last week!"


    Way back we posted a job for someone that knew UCSD Pascal.
    Someone sent in a resume claiming "8 years experience with USCD Pascal".

    He didnt get an interview as:

    (1) "USCD" is a common mangling of "UCSD", mainly seen with people who don't know or can't remember what UCSD stands for.

    (2) "UCSD Pascal" had only existed for about three years at that time. Maybe he put out 266% ??




    Maybe you missed out on hiring the guy who worked 5 years to develop UCSD pascal.

    I worked in the development phase of a now popular language, I wonder if my resume has ever been rejected out of hand based on my having 'too many' years of experience.
  • Patrick 2007-01-11 12:55
    Saladin:
    Did those parents think that the interviewer would just take them at their word that "he is a very good boy and do good job for you" without actually meeting the person or probing into any of his technical skills? LOL.


    The sad fact isn't the first I've heard of such a thing. If you keep up with higher ed news, many of the helicopter parents who hovered over their kids through college have kept doing it past graduation. Wait until you start getting calls about why Johnny didn't get the job he interviewed for, or why Billy didn't get a raise after his last evaluation!
  • TheD 2007-01-11 12:57
    I had an interview once with a manager and the resident "technical guru". I got along great with the manager, but I knew that I was going to have trouble with the technical guy. He had poor hygiene, dressed poorly, and he obviously didn't have the use of one of his arms. I knew that I was going to have trouble because of his attitude and (what I perceived to be) his immediate and obvious dislike for me. He started asking me questions about designing databases. I'd forgotten some of the terms (like E-R diagram and normalization) but I was able to describe the processes effectively. Unfortunately, my knowledge of the processes wasn't what he was looking for, he wanted the actual term. Needless to say, I didn't get the job.
  • JRock 2007-01-11 13:00
    cmccorvey:
    JRock:
    i had an interview with a distribution company some years back. after interviewing with the manager, the technical expert was ushered in to the room. this lady was missing many of her front teeth and her remaining teeth were brown and rotting as well as her gums. i thought i was going to puke. anyway, i couldn't look at her directly and proceeded to end the interview quickly and drive away from there as fast as possible.


    So, was this in the UK or the deep south of the good ol' US of A?


    this was in the blue blooded state of connecticut.
  • JRock 2007-01-11 13:01
    Marion:
    JRock:
    i had an interview with a distribution company some years back. after interviewing with the manager, the technical expert was ushered in to the room. this lady was missing many of her front teeth and her remaining teeth were brown and rotting as well as her gums. i thought i was going to puke. anyway, i couldn't look at her directly and proceeded to end the interview quickly and drive away from there as fast as possible.


    That is really, really, insulting. I can't believe that's why you left, much less that you're admitting to it on here and telling the story. I'm a man damnit, I can't help it if I've gum disease and man boobs.


    thats funny. seriously, she may have been the ugliest woman i've ever seen.
  • akatherder 2007-01-11 13:14
    I was interviewing for a ".Net web development" position.

    The very first question the interviewer asks...

    Jerk: What do you know about perl?
    Me: perl? I can spell it on a good day.
    Jerk: Haha, ok how?
    Me: p-e-r-l
    Jerk: You missed the A.

    I caught a glance at his cheat sheet of questions and it even had perl spelled out correctly.
  • British Teeth 2007-01-11 13:14
    One question that pops up in my mind... "So does your company have dental plan?"
  • JRock 2007-01-11 13:14
    interviews are interesting i recently had a 4 hour interview for a consulting gig at an engineering firm. yeah - 4 hours. first hour was with 1 developer talking about how great his reports were. second hour was with a developer and we talked about his recent gain of us citizienship. 3rd hour was with the hr manager and we talked about our kids and taking them to amusement parks. 4th hour was with the department manager and that was the only real interviewing part of the process. i never talked about myself so much in my life.

    i got the gig but turned them down. i don't think they were too happy about that.
  • CodeWhisperer 2007-01-11 13:23
    JRock:
    i recently had a 4 hour interview for a consulting gig at an engineering firm. yeah - 4 hours.


    You're complaining about a 4 hour interview? My last one dragged on for 10...

    -cw
  • ceegh 2007-01-11 13:27
    I thought I had a nice job in the bag once, having "aced" the technical aspects and providing a resume that matched nicely with the position, until I got to the HR portion.

    In my college career we had a wonderful group of retired women who helped around the area I worked in at the university. They proudly referred to themselves as "the old ladies", and we all used the term freely with them. Unfortunately, I couldn't check my swing on using the term (in describing how that relationship improved my ability to interact with different skill levels) in the interview with the HR director, a woman of around age 55. I was so flustered after I realized I had said it that I never did try to explain it.
  • newfweiler 2007-01-11 13:30
    At one place, I had an interview with one of the programmers I would be working with. He told me he had a bug to fix and could I help him with it? We worked together and found the bug. We found out that we got along well and both had good skills. I worked with him for several years after that. So sometimes unusual interviews turn out OK.
    I don't think it would have gone so well if it had been a deliberate setup, so I don't recommend setting up a fake bug.
  • danixdefcon5 2007-01-11 13:33
    I actually HATE all that "false image" crap with having suits and all. I'd go for the dirty khahki guy, _if_ he has a good attitude.

    Too bad most gurus have a real attitude problem. I remember getting called "lammer" (yes, with the extra M) by some self-proclaimed guru. The reason? I sent him a joke sig I found saying

    Remember, only God and Esc+:w saves.

    I shouldn't have done it. I got served a 15 minute crapfest on "how Esc+:w doesn't always save, better to use ZZ" down to "only lammers use that".

    And yes, again, with the double M. Sheesh. Fortunately, no one that demented has ever interviewed me. :)
  • Sumit 2007-01-11 13:38
    This story is a bit too Dilbertian to be true. Lest the Indian name in the story and this comment make it appear like that's a common practice in the East, that's far from the truth. Parents will use their contacts and influence to get their offspring jobs, and nepotism may lead to farcical interviews, but that's another thing and quite universal. If this story is true, it's a wacko story in any culture.
  • danixdefcon5 2007-01-11 13:41
    newfweiler:
    At one place, I had an interview with one of the programmers I would be working with. He told me he had a bug to fix and could I help him with it? We worked together and found the bug. We found out that we got along well and both had good skills. I worked with him for several years after that. So sometimes unusual interviews turn out OK.
    I don't think it would have gone so well if it had been a deliberate setup, so I don't recommend setting up a fake bug.


    Ooooh, something like that actually landed me what could be my first job at college!

    The Network dude was in the Comp. Lab searching a computer infected with the Blaster virus, and I decided to fire up Snort to search it. I found it, went up to him and told him which computer it was.

    2 days later, I get a job offer, to be one of the new CompLab's sysadmin.
  • K 2007-01-11 13:41
    JRock:
    3rd hour was with the hr manager and we talked about our kids and taking them to amusement parks.


    Wow, an HR manager clueless enough to talk with a candidate about his family? What HR guy doesn't know to steer away from topics like that, since it's illegal to discriminate in hiring based on your marital/family status?
  • Mike C. 2007-01-11 13:45
    Never had the parents interview, but did have what must have been the entire family (including parents, grandma, and a few younger siblings) of a young middle eastern woman escort her to the interview for our programming internship. Our small reception area was a bit cramped for about an hour.
  • KattMan 2007-01-11 14:00
    Sumit:
    This story is a bit too Dilbertian to be true. Lest the Indian name in the story and this comment make it appear like that's a common practice in the East, that's far from the truth. Parents will use their contacts and influence to get their offspring jobs, and nepotism may lead to farcical interviews, but that's another thing and quite universal. If this story is true, it's a wacko story in any culture.


    Call it western confusion. I've heard of this practice and been told it was common, can't recall by whom. I will however always concede to a native of the culture denying it, since in truth, I really don't know better.
  • Anon 2007-01-11 14:09
    danixdefcon5:
    I actually HATE all that "false image" crap with having suits and all. I'd go for the dirty khahki guy, _if_ he has a good attitude.

    Too bad most gurus have a real attitude problem. I remember getting called "lammer" (yes, with the extra M) by some self-proclaimed guru. The reason? I sent him a joke sig I found saying

    Remember, only God and Esc+:w saves.

    I shouldn't have done it. I got served a 15 minute crapfest on "how Esc+:w doesn't always save, better to use ZZ" down to "only lammers use that".

    And yes, again, with the double M. Sheesh. Fortunately, no one that demented has ever interviewed me. :)


    Oh come on, if he used the word 'lammer' he was obviously joking with you. This is just how geeks bust balls. It's not a guru thing, it's a guy thing.
  • JRock 2007-01-11 14:10
    i think this topic came up because he ran out of questions in the first 10 minutes of a 60 minute interview.
  • JRock 2007-01-11 14:13
    CodeWhisperer:
    JRock:
    i recently had a 4 hour interview for a consulting gig at an engineering firm. yeah - 4 hours.


    You're complaining about a 4 hour interview? My last one dragged on for 10...

    -cw


    what position were you interviewing for? wow. i think i'd bill them for that.
  • TravisO 2007-01-11 14:20
    CodeWhisperer:
    JRock:
    i recently had a 4 hour interview...


    My last one dragged on for 10...


    I haven't been on any interviews lately because of the time I spent in a Turkish Prison

    captcha: gladiatormovies
  • Anthony 2007-01-11 14:22
    "Because of that, I always made it a point to bring it up early on in the interview so that we didn't waste eachother's time."

    Technically, by not clearing this requirement before the interview process, you had already wasted their time.
  • jtsampson 2007-01-11 14:47
    K:
    JRock:
    3rd hour was with the hr manager and we talked about our kids and taking them to amusement parks.


    Wow, an HR manager clueless enough to talk with a candidate about his family? What HR guy doesn't know to steer away from topics like that, since it's illegal to discriminate in hiring based on your marital/family status?


    I believe it. I once had an interviewer asked me about my parents. He was the owner of the company. When I told him that my father passed away, he then asked "When?", and added "Heart attack or stroke?". I figured next would be, "Would you please turn your head and cough?"

    I got up and left without a word.
  • IronWhiskers 2007-01-11 14:49
    ya, I pissed an interviewer off one time cause I said "adc" instead of "analog to digital converter"
  • AustinE 2007-01-11 14:55
    JRock:
    interviews are interesting i recently had a 4 hour interview for a consulting gig at an engineering firm. yeah - 4 hours. first hour was with 1 developer talking about how great his reports were. second hour was with a developer and we talked about his recent gain of us citizienship. 3rd hour was with the hr manager and we talked about our kids and taking them to amusement parks. 4th hour was with the department manager and that was the only real interviewing part of the process. i never talked about myself so much in my life.

    i got the gig but turned them down. i don't think they were too happy about that.


    i do interviews myself and while i have never talked about amusement parks, the interviews are never entirely about technical knowledge. In some instances up to 75% of an interview could be just bullshitting.
    i never talked about myself so much in my life.

    This is what i am looking for to see if that person is a good fit for the job and the environment that they would be working in. You may have all the technical skills in the world but if it is a laid-back environment and you are the kind of person that needs structure and deadlines then you won;t be right for us and we wont be right for you. And saying this doesn't get it across, bc people can easily lie. You;ve got to feel someone out by bullshitting with them. thats not a WTF.
  • rmg66 2007-01-11 15:13
    After moving to Ohio from very integrated Northern California, I interviewed for a consulting job near very segregated Cleveland.

    The Interviewer, an older woman, had mentioned that she lived in Beechwood, a suburb of Cleveland.

    Just off the cuff, and really not meaning any harm, I joked that "Oh Beechwood. My wife tells me that's where all the rich Jews live."

    I didn't mean anything derogatory by it. I just thought that it was funny that they all seemed to live in that one area.

    At any rate, the interview got real uncomfortable after that. She continued, and even went through all the motions of getting me set up as a consultant with the firm and promised to call, if any jobs came up.

    None did, of course.

  • Mark 2007-01-11 15:13
    Reminds me of an interview a colleague had some years ago. He was going for a C++ development position with a company that produced accounts systems (I think). The sum total of the technical interview went something like this :-

    Interviewer: What C++ development environment do you use?
    Candidate: Visual Studio
    Interviewer: Okay (ticking box on his sheet), now what version?
    Candidate: 6
    Interviewer: Okay (ticking another box on his sheet). Are you sure?
    Candidate: Er, yes
    Interviewer: Right then, thank you very much.

    and that was it. He was offered the job with a 10% increase on his current salary. Some people have all the luck...
  • Corporate Cog 2007-01-11 15:17
    The Quintessential Übergeek: A video of this would no doubt be a side splitter. A decent comedy show could probably be made of such interviews.
  • Corporate Cog 2007-01-11 15:19
    JRock:
    the technical expert was ushered in to the room. this lady was missing many of her front teeth and her remaining teeth were brown and rotting as well as her gums. i thought i was going to puke. anyway, i couldn't look at her directly and proceeded to end the interview quickly and drive away from there as fast as possible.


    Don't talk about Paula like that!
  • Paul 2007-01-11 15:22
    Regarding the interview by proxy, that sounds like a cock story to me.
  • waruwaru 2007-01-11 15:25
    Either Stephan didn't believe in OOI (object oriented interview), or Rajib was polymorphic but yet didn't inheret the proper attributes from both of his parents. <ba-da-dum>
  • wpgDBA 2007-01-11 15:34
    I once applied for a DBA/UNIX sysadmin position. Had to go back three times.

    First was with the manager. Supposed to last an hour. We started talking and hit it off grat. Four hours later, we both looked at our watches in shock.

    Second was with the HR rep. Was my tie crooked? Did I have something caught between my teeth? Coldest response I have every had -- and that includes when I used to go to singles bars.

    But if I thought that was bad, did I have a wake-up call coming! The technical interview was with the current sysadmin and the DBA. The sysadmin had the opinion that he was The Creator's gift to UNIX.

    Of course, this in itself is not surprising: the sysadmin had an opinion on everything. Yes, he also answered his own questions. Their DBA was either shy or too bullied to speak. After two hours, I jumped on a pause for breath to ask the DBA directly what his opinion was on a slightly obscure Oracle topic. I didn't really care about his opinion; I just wanted to hear him speak. He smiled gratefully, relaxed, and warmly began -- and of course the sysadmin ...

    My final opportunity to talk ("So is there anything you would like to add?") launched me into a three-minute speech about why the company really needed me personally. Well, three minutes of me talking and 30 minutes of sysadmin diatribe. I packed up and left, fuming.

    They didn't bother to offer me the job I was going to refuse anyway.
  • JRock 2007-01-11 15:34
    AustinE:
    JRock:
    interviews are interesting i recently had a 4 hour interview for a consulting gig at an engineering firm. yeah - 4 hours. first hour was with 1 developer talking about how great his reports were. second hour was with a developer and we talked about his recent gain of us citizienship. 3rd hour was with the hr manager and we talked about our kids and taking them to amusement parks. 4th hour was with the department manager and that was the only real interviewing part of the process. i never talked about myself so much in my life.

    i got the gig but turned them down. i don't think they were too happy about that.


    i do interviews myself and while i have never talked about amusement parks, the interviews are never entirely about technical knowledge. In some instances up to 75% of an interview could be just bullshitting.
    i never talked about myself so much in my life.

    This is what i am looking for to see if that person is a good fit for the job and the environment that they would be working in. You may have all the technical skills in the world but if it is a laid-back environment and you are the kind of person that needs structure and deadlines then you won;t be right for us and we wont be right for you. And saying this doesn't get it across, bc people can easily lie. You;ve got to feel someone out by bullshitting with them. thats not a WTF.


    i can understand the point of that. but 4 hours? oy. i was making up stuff to talk about.
  • been there 2007-01-11 15:36
    Over the years I've gone on a couple of interviews where they ask me how I'd fix a 'hypothetical' production problem. I quickly caught on that they were scambling and didn't know how to fix something, and were looking for some free advice.

    I've also gone on interviews where they'd ask me how to design something. Then I'd notice that they had the kind of sketches you'd normally make when trying to figure out how to do something. If I was *certain* they were looking for free advice, I'd invariably tell them enough to let them know I knew how to solve the problem. Then they'd ask for more information. My response? "I'll tell you the ending after I start work", and then cut the interview short.
  • triso 2007-01-11 15:51
    Alex Papadimoulis:
    ...One enthusiastic candidate waited for me to finish my disclaimer on the language, then immediately said, "Wow, that should be fun. I just finished a book on PROBOL last week!"
    Being an Evil One, I would have had some fun with this:

    me: Oh really, which one?
    him: Ummm...
    me: Could you bring it in? Ours isn't for the latest version of the software.

    I can picture him scouring every bookstore and the entire Internet looking for this book to read before his next interview.
  • Ghost Ware Wizard 2007-01-11 15:53
    TheD:
    I had an interview once with a manager and the resident "technical guru". I got along great with the manager, but I knew that I was going to have trouble with the technical guy. He had poor hygiene, dressed poorly, and he obviously didn't have the use of one of his arms. I knew that I was going to have trouble because of his attitude and (what I perceived to be) his immediate and obvious dislike for me. He started asking me questions about designing databases. I'd forgotten some of the terms (like E-R diagram and normalization) but I was able to describe the processes effectively. Unfortunately, my knowledge of the processes wasn't what he was looking for, he wanted the actual term. Needless to say, I didn't get the job.


    I had the same thing happen to me except he obviously didn't like me just by me showing up for the interview to ruin his day. <idiots are everywhere/>
  • md2perpe 2007-01-11 15:55
    That database technician probably had Asperger Syndrome.
  • emurphy 2007-01-11 15:58
    Doug:
    grg:
    >One enthusiastic candidate waited for me to finish my disclaimer on the language, then immediately said, "Wow, that should be fun. I just finished a book on PROBOL last week!"


    Way back we posted a job for someone that knew UCSD Pascal.
    Someone sent in a resume claiming "8 years experience with USCD Pascal".

    He didnt get an interview as:

    (1) "USCD" is a common mangling of "UCSD", mainly seen with people who don't know or can't remember what UCSD stands for.

    (2) "UCSD Pascal" had only existed for about three years at that time. Maybe he put out 266% ??




    Maybe you missed out on hiring the guy who worked 5 years to develop UCSD pascal.

    I worked in the development phase of a now popular language, I wonder if my resume has ever been rejected out of hand based on my having 'too many' years of experience.


    I assume your resume explains this, e.g. "8 years experience (5 years helping develop v1.0 plus 3 years using it in practice)". Someone might see "8 years" and reject you without reading the rest of the line, but would you want to work for them anyway?
  • whitey 2007-01-11 16:00
    You are correct and in fact you shouldn't even be asked about your marital/family status. However, it wouldn't be problem if you, the candidate, brought this up. I would argue that for some companies, this could be viewed as a positive if they percieve a married guy with kids as being more stable and reliable.
  • rmr 2007-01-11 16:00
    been there:
    Over the years I've gone on a couple of interviews where they ask me how I'd fix a 'hypothetical' production problem. I quickly caught on that they were scambling and didn't know how to fix something, and were looking for some free advice.

    I've also gone on interviews where they'd ask me how to design something. Then I'd notice that they had the kind of sketches you'd normally make when trying to figure out how to do something. If I was *certain* they were looking for free advice, I'd invariably tell them enough to let them know I knew how to solve the problem. Then they'd ask for more information. My response? "I'll tell you the ending after I start work", and then cut the interview short.


    Err, let me guess, you didn't get the job?
  • codist 2007-01-11 16:32
    I once had ajob interview where the two senior programmers took turns telling me all the crazy and broken systems and software in the company, waiting to see if I ran away screaming. When I didn't I got the job.
  • Corporate Cog 2007-01-11 16:56
    K:
    JRock:
    3rd hour was with the hr manager and we talked about our kids and taking them to amusement parks.


    Wow, an HR manager clueless enough to talk with a candidate about his family? What HR guy doesn't know to steer away from topics like that, since it's illegal to discriminate in hiring based on your marital/family status?


    Sounds like your knowledge of law would provide for stimulating conversation.
  • Ashkelon 2007-01-11 17:05
    Oh, amen brother.

    I cringe anytime I read similar.

    But when Sun's Java cert.s insist that I convert octal to hex, and divine oddball compiler errors, before I can be labeled a competent Java programmer, what can you expect?
  • Ashkelon 2007-01-11 17:09
    And I love the requests for "sample code". I answer "I'm not a slut, I don't give it away. Pay me and I'll give you all the sample code you want."
  • Migala 2007-01-11 17:09
    I once had an HR manager ask me my political preference (after I mentioned it was an interest). I decided to answer, it's no secret and I didn't know a better way to handle it, but was surprised/shocked he asked it.
    Didn't get the job by the way.

    (This was in the Netherlands)
  • Anon 2007-01-11 17:10
    And then there was the person who interviewed with us for a job, then posted a diatribe on their blog when they didn't hear back from us right away. Needless to say... they did not get the job.
  • marvin_rabbit 2007-01-11 17:12
    Alex Papadimoulis:
    One enthusiastic candidate waited for me to finish my disclaimer on the language, then immediately said, "Wow, that should be fun. I just finished a book on PROBOL last week!"

    Ahh, yes... A friend of mine used to live in Hawaii.
  • Ayende Rahien 2007-01-11 17:38
    Ashkelon:
    And I love the requests for "sample code". I answer "I'm not a slut, I don't give it away. Pay me and I'll give you all the sample code you want."


    You do realize that sample code is one of the best ways to judge the skill of a developer, right?
  • Moose 2007-01-11 17:41
    I recall interviewing a guy for position in 1998. He claimed to have over 10 years experience programming Windows NT. While I was sorely tempted to sarcastically ask if he used to work for Microsoft and had been involved in the development of NT since the late eighties, I held my tongue in check. I figured it was better to let him flaunt his ignorance so that other hiring managers might be warned...

    The other funny thing was we were entirely a unix shop... no Windows machines anywhere other than HR, so I'm not sure why he even mentioned NT.
  • Rodyland 2007-01-11 17:46
    Ayende Rahien:

    You do realize that sample code is one of the best ways to judge the skill of a developer, right?


    You do realise that in the case of a not-insignificant proportion of programmers, all production-quality code they have produced is owned by someone else?
  • SomeCoder 2007-01-11 17:48
    Ayende Rahien:

    You do realize that sample code is one of the best ways to judge the skill of a developer, right?


    While I'm not going to outright disagree with this, I think there are other ways.

    For instance, why not just place the candidate down in front of a computer (Windows, Unix, whatever they will be using) and have them solve a simple-ish problem using C++?

    From watching them you could see how fast they type, how well they navigate through the OS, how they handle various lookup tasks, and - of course - how well they program.

    And the reason to have them use C++ is that it's my opinion that if someone can write some good C++, they can learn pretty much any language required (there are some exceptions of course).

    Just my opinion though. But I like this method better than asking for sample code or asking ridiculous brain teasers where if you know the "trick" you can answer it in 5 seconds flat.
  • cconroy 2007-01-11 17:53
    Rodyland:
    Ayende Rahien:

    You do realize that sample code is one of the best ways to judge the skill of a developer, right?


    You do realise that in the case of a not-insignificant proportion of programmers, all production-quality code they have produced is owned by someone else?


    We're talking about "sample code" that's written at an interview, right? I mean, I'm assuming most developers don't keep a portfolio around to show off (unless perhaps they do a lot of open-source or personal development in their spare time).
  • Nate 2007-01-11 17:57
    Captcha is billgates which is perfect for my abbreviated Microsoft interview story.

    Long time ago, around May 1991, got a plane ticket in the mail to go up to Redmond, after having impressed an interviewer at college.

    Several interviews: one guy with a torn Star Wars t-shirt that looked to be from the movie's original 1977(?) release, another where we went to lunch but got in a tiny fender bender on the way back (no biggie, no one hurt, but HR lady asked me about it worriedly when she led me to the next interview), one guy who had a puzzle question about tree traversal so you can back out easily -- simple, keep a list of left/right moves made, then read that backwards - right? No, he reminded me that absolutely no extra memory could be used, no lists, no nothing. I just couldn't figure out how to do it with *no* extra mem used; he finally gave me the answer: on your way down, repoint the child node ptr back up to the parent where you came from. Ie: alter the tree *as* you traverse it. I asked him "what happens if someone else reads the tree while you've messed with it" He just looked at me funny! Like that couldn't happen! Classic MS - he thought he had the cleverest test but a central flaw would kill the whole thing.

    But the real kicker: for one of the interviews, I (and I swear this is true, others have tried to call BS on it, but it is true I swear) was led to a programmer who *apparently* had just had several loved ones die in an accident or something. He was ghostly pale white, his face skin stretched back hard, pulled back hard from stress, and every little point I got wrong was greeted by the craziest most psychotic shouting I could imagine. Like, I mentioned knowing Motorla 68000 assembly, but not being real up at the moment on x86 assembly (though willing to learn). Apparently this
    was the wrong word. (extreeeme shouting): "You mean you don't know 8068 ARCHITECTURE!!!!!" You see, 'architecture' vs 'assembly' language was the key to the whole universe. Anyway, as I tried to work sample problems for him, on a sheet of paper that kept tearing (like the written exam part of "Men in Black" exactly), he no less than THREE times called the funeral home to see what progres was being made!! The funeral home, asking about wreaths and arrangments and stuff!! During my interview! And every time he hung up, he was more and more distraught and stressed and taut-ended face skin pulled more back, and tons more shouting of course!

    Now, I had heard at school that Microsoft was extra-extra tricky in their interviews, so I figured maybe this is a really involved trick to so if you can work under pressure. (Also, I got a lot of screaming shit all my life at home, so I figured I could put up with it.) Now, this guy was nuts distraught over his friend / family member / whatever getting killed and my interview was where he got to work it all out on someone else (me) (I should have got up and left, but had no gumption or anything else as a 22 year old nerd. I just sat there and took it. (Having said that, I will k.i.l.l. that motherfucker if I ever ever run into him again, anywhere, anytime)) This guy was the real psycho thing, however.

    When the interview was over, (and he was convinced I couldn't program, after I hadn't been able to even try to work out a solution to some fairly easy things, given that he'd showed me he would scream insane blood murder at any question I might ask, or any correction I might try to make) .. anyway when we walked out his office door into the corridor at least four people were gathered around, concerned/half-jokey looks on their faces, trying to see what all the commotion was/see if anything had happened, etc -- his batshit crazy screaming had gone through the walls of course.

    Fuckin' jackoff.

    Anyhow -- this is funny: one of the brochures they gave me (early 1991 remember) about how nice it was to work at Microsoft, had a quote from a current employee who said something like how important "lung power" (his words) was at MS, since that how technical issues were decided -- by literally shouting down the hall at each other, over data structs, techniques, etc, until (his words) "the loudest developer wins."

    Fuckin' crackhats.
  • Codemonkey 2007-01-11 18:06
    I work for a rapidly growing startup. Our interview process used to be grueling, lasting up to 8 hours and/or multiple days of back and forth, with take home projects. We have had to relax the process a little bit as we grow.

    One of the most difficult things has been finding good web developers (in San Francisco, of all places -- all the good ones are making more than we offer or have nice cushy jobs that don't require all nighters).

    Anyway, the other Web dev and me decided to save time with a candidate by doing the interview together. We always start the technical part with a laughably simple question to see how much they lied in their resume. In this case, we asked the guy to make a simple layout using CSS floats. He did fairly well, except when he got to the point where he got it backwards. We pointed out that he wanted "left" instead of "right" because of the way the code was written. This is usually not a big deal (we usually assume that anything that five minutes of googling will provide doesn't have to be memorized).

    He said that no, that's the way it's done. We did a double-take and asked him to check it again. He stood his ground. Then we had him check his code in the browser. Even in the face of uncontrovertible evidence, he kept repeating his mantra of 'that's how it's done! I don't know what's wrong!'. Both of us reiterated "left, , instead of right". He would have none of it.

    Needless to say, we didn't call him back.
  • Anon 2007-01-11 18:07
    md2perpe:
    That database technician probably had Asperger Syndrome.


    I have a brother with this. Since he can function normally in most every respect people just think he's an inconsiderate ass. In reality he really can't do things like use the appropriate tone of voice or explain anything in a subtle manner. Every day we have to remind him "lower your voice", "don't interrupt", "It's good to be passionate about something, but try not to go into so much detail unless you are asked to" but it never sinks in.

    We make it clear that he has to work hard at these things, but to some extent he needs other people to be more understanding. People with Aspergers tend to make good scientists and engineers, but if they can't get past an interview with HR or collaborate with co-workers their talent tends to get wasted.
  • Kd Long 2007-01-11 19:18
    Always a site full of great content, but I need more of this. It had me chuckling all day.
  • random_coder() 2007-01-11 19:26
    Anon:
    md2perpe:
    That database technician probably had Asperger Syndrome.


    I have a brother with this. Since he can function normally in most every respect people just think he's an inconsiderate ass. In reality he really can't do things like use the appropriate tone of voice or explain anything in a subtle manner. Every day we have to remind him "lower your voice", "don't interrupt", "It's good to be passionate about something, but try not to go into so much detail unless you are asked to" but it never sinks in.

    We make it clear that he has to work hard at these things, but to some extent he needs other people to be more understanding. People with Aspergers tend to make good scientists and engineers, but if they can't get past an interview with HR or collaborate with co-workers their talent tends to get wasted.


    As someone with Asperger's - I agree. I've taken to reading acting books to learn how to play "roles" - without that, I'd be the horrid dork everyone avoided in high school. Still do it from time to time, too.

    Funny thing is, most people I've met with Asperger's get along with fellow Aspies just fine...

  • SteveS 2007-01-11 19:37
    (apropos captcha: 'shizzle'. That out of the way:)

    Something remarkably like that landed one of my best friends *his* first job. Apparently several systems at the computer lab he was using were infected with a new virus that McAfee's scanner couldn't find (this was circa 1990 or so); he posted up on one of the company's bulletin boards mentioning it, and offered up a detection signature he'd figured out. John McAfee sent him a check for a couple hundred bucks and asked if he'd be willing to write a remover, too. After a couple more iterations he wound up as employee #8 at McAfee Technology.
  • Patrick 2007-01-11 19:47
    You are correct and in fact you shouldn't even be asked about your marital/family status. However, it wouldn't be problem if you, the candidate, brought this up. I would argue that for some companies, this could be viewed as a positive if they percieve a married guy with kids as being more stable and reliable.


    So us single guys are supposed to starve...or what? Sorry, but anti-descrimination laws exist for a reason.
  • Ann Coulter 2007-01-11 20:32
    rmg66:
    After moving to Ohio from very integrated Northern California, I interviewed for a consulting job near very segregated Cleveland.

    The Interviewer, an older woman, had mentioned that she lived in Beechwood, a suburb of Cleveland.

    Just off the cuff, and really not meaning any harm, I joked that "Oh Beechwood. My wife tells me that's where all the rich Jews live."

    I didn't mean anything derogatory by it. I just thought that it was funny that they all seemed to live in that one area.

    At any rate, the interview got real uncomfortable after that. She continued, and even went through all the motions of getting me set up as a consultant with the firm and promised to call, if any jobs came up.

    None did, of course.



    I'm sure you meant no harm but what good can come from saying where all the rich Jews live?
  • i didn't say anything 2007-01-11 20:46
    I was once interviewing a guy when I had a phone call, I had forgotten to switch it on to silent. I apologised to him and answered the call. To my utter amazement, it was his wife who then asked me to hand the phone to him so she could remind him of some errands.

    I tried to handle this with good grace and humor, but once that was over I said 'goodbye'. It then took me another 45 minutes to get him out the door because he just wouldn't stop talking. No matter how politely I tried to tell him to go away he would find some excuse to keep talking, it was really quite bizarre. I think both he and his wife had some problems.
  • Anonymous 2007-01-11 21:03
    How in the world did she have your cell phone number?
  • T 2007-01-11 21:10
    danixdefcon5:
    I shouldn't have done it. I got served a 15 minute crapfest on "how Esc+:w doesn't always save, better to use ZZ" down to "only lammers use that".


    But wouldn't using Esc+ZZ in the joke actually mean:

    Remember, only God and Esc+ZZ saves and quits right away.

    Man, what a harsh God. ;)

    CAPTCHA: creative - hmm, probably should read "bleary-eyed". ;)
  • Mick 2007-01-11 22:33
    cmccorvey:
    So, was this in the UK or the deep south of the good ol' US of A?

    Probably in your house.
  • foxyshadis 2007-01-11 23:57
    Patrick:
    You are correct and in fact you shouldn't even be asked about your marital/family status. However, it wouldn't be problem if you, the candidate, brought this up. I would argue that for some companies, this could be viewed as a positive if they percieve a married guy with kids as being more stable and reliable.


    So us single guys are supposed to starve...or what? Sorry, but anti-descrimination laws exist for a reason.

    The hiring process is ALL ABOUT discrimination. It's not legal to say "Oh, you're not married? I'm sorry, we don't have a place for you", but it's perfectly legal to hire based on an opinion on you and your fit with the company, no matter what it's founded on, if they aren't going to express it. Otherwise a lot more of these kooky interview-horror firms would be sued.

    Anon:
    Oh come on, if he used the word 'lammer' he was obviously joking with you. This is just how geeks bust balls. It's not a guru thing, it's a guy thing.

    Depends entirely on how scary the guy was. I knew a guy who would turn into a frighteningly obsessive creep when Everquest came up. Intense and red-faced like some raging bull.
  • Volmarias 2007-01-12 00:11
    Anonymous:
    How in the world did she have your cell phone number?


    I suspect he meant his office phone; Any office phone should have a delightful number of buttons to press, including one to shunt all calls to voicemail or to say "I'm not available" in some other fashion. If you've ever dialed a call center, gotten to the hold music, heard it ring a couple times, then go back to the hold music, someone pressed their "I'm busy right now" button instead of answering the call.
  • jeian 2007-01-12 00:26
    Wow, an HR manager clueless enough to talk with a candidate about his family? What HR guy doesn't know to steer away from topics like that, since it's illegal to discriminate in hiring based on your marital/family status?


    Technically, it's only illegal to *ask*. If the guy volunteered it by himself, then the HR rep responded without asking a question, then there shouldn't be a problem.

    At least, that's what I understood from personnel management class. *shrug*
  • Lynn 2007-01-12 02:49
    Because Beechwood is where all the rich Jews live, it the only was to describe the area.
  • Tony 2007-01-12 04:54
    So hang on, the parents of the candidate turned up, and he went ahead with the interview anyway, knowing he was wasting his time???? There's the WTF right there!

    Why be such a pussy? Tell them it not the way to do things, and kick them out! Sheesh!
  • Tigress 2007-01-12 04:56
    Volmarias:
    I suspect he meant his office phone; Any office phone should have a delightful number of buttons to press, including one to shunt all calls to voicemail or to say "I'm not available" in some other fashion. If you've ever dialed a call center, gotten to the hold music, heard it ring a couple times, then go back to the hold music, someone pressed their "I'm busy right now" button instead of answering the call.


    My "office phone" is my cellphone. I have both a local area code number and a cellphone area code number assigned to it. Assuming you figure out what combination of buttons to press, it supposedly has the same functionality as normal office phone.


    In response to the code samples, a couple of years ago, my standard code sample consisted of a rather elaborate piece of ascii art formatted code. I believe I sent it out to four or five companies in total. One of them responded that they wanted someone more skilled in the programming language. Two others gave me an interview, and one of them ended up hiring me.
  • Peter Antoine 2007-01-12 04:59
    You also used a "red flag" word. Terms like "Jew" and "Jews" (as a plural for Jew) are generally only used by the far-right, so someone using them in conversation may be letting slip far-right leanings.

    Something along the same lines:

    Me at an interview for a small company that develops systems for book libraries. Me and the MD (Managing Director - owns the company) get one really well, we are both sad enough to have written our own OS's, his that are using to base the system on, my for my final year project at uni.

    Ok, I am pretty sure that I have got the job, just doing the walk around the company, showing me the systems they have in development. He asks one of the current devs to do a book look-up to show me how their systems work. We walk off, come back in two minutes, the book that was looked up was "mein Kampt" -- I am black.

    I did not except the job offer.

    CAPTCHA: clueless -- cant say any more.
  • Iain 2007-01-12 05:01
    I used to work in a bank but had a chance to transfer to their IT department. I turned up and was ushered in. The interviewer had my last 5 years staff reports which were less than steller (mainly because some of the basic skills like add-listing 8000 checks 100% right was something I just couldn't do). He looked at me, said 'according to this, you're crap! Still, this isn't banking, this is IT, lets go down the pub'. I don't remember much about the pub, just the train journey home, wondering why my face had gone numb (too much beer when I wasn't a drinker). Anyway, a week later, I got the job.
  • Dude 2007-01-12 05:17
    One of the most funny interview moments for me... was when they told me I could have my birthday off/paid for each year. I laughed by mistake and a piece of spit flew across the room landing on the interviewers face by accident. He did end up making an offer.
  • Anonymous interviewer 2007-01-12 05:35
    When I was in charge of hiring programmers, I remember we had to filter out all sorts of weird CVs, that would take ages but some of them were just hilarious, including a guy who declared having 10 years experience in Java programming in 2000, or a guy who declared being an expert in absolutely all programming languages (the list was endless) 1-2 years after graduation. We also had people who send pictures of themselves in large format (we never requested photographs). One guy sent a picture of him at a party with his girlfriend, both obviously having drunk too much. Also had an italian guy mentioning in his language skills "english spoken very much well and perfect".

    Best interview I had was a guy who came in... with his mother. Mother is an overweight, bully-kind person. Son is a tiny, frail man with enormous glasses who did not speak a word except "Hello" and "Goodbye" during the interview. Mother did all the answering, so I did not dare ask any technical questions and we finished it off in 15 minutes, minimal lapse of time to respect politeness limits.

  • Paul 2007-01-12 05:44
    I applied to a job as a "PHP/MySQL developer" at a telecommunication company once. During the first interview, I met the company's HR lady. The talk was really positive. The company seemed very nice, too. She asked me I could provide a code sample in a couple of days. Not a problem, of course. I promised I'd mail it the next day.

    I did and got a reply from her a day after, telling me that two of the company's developers had reviewed the code. They thought I'd make a nice addition to the team, and invited me to a second interview. Great.

    This time, four people showed up: the HR lady, the owner of the company, a developer and a DBA. The talk went great. I had a good answer for all the questions they asked me and everyone looked happy. After another hour or so, we all shook hands, and they told me they had another interview later in the day and that they would contact me as soon as they had made a decision.

    The next day, I got a phonecall saying that I got the job. Fantastic. I also got told that they "forgot to mention" something during the interviews. I'd also be a sysadmin for a mission critical server that handled SMS traffic. Plus, I'd have to be on call every night during weekdays and the whole weekend every other week. In fact, coding PHP or MySQL would "probably take up maybe one or two hours a day".

    Clearly not the job I had applied for anymore, I turned it down. The weird thing is that the exact same thing happened to me before, only that they had the guts to just tell it to me during the interview then. (I applied as a PHP/MySQL developer at a gaming company, but during the interview the job description slowly morphed into being a sysadmin for servers that hosted national competitions and the like).
  • mip 2007-01-12 06:06
    That must have been a long time ago, since all political parties are now almost the same anyway :)
  • real_aardvark 2007-01-12 06:47
    Peter Antoine:
    You also used a "red flag" word. Terms like "Jew" and "Jews" (as a plural for Jew) are generally only used by the far-right, so someone using them in conversation may be letting slip far-right leanings.

    Something along the same lines:

    Me at an interview for a small company that develops systems for book libraries. Me and the MD (Managing Director - owns the company) get one really well, we are both sad enough to have written our own OS's, his that are using to base the system on, my for my final year project at uni.

    Ok, I am pretty sure that I have got the job, just doing the walk around the company, showing me the systems they have in development. He asks one of the current devs to do a book look-up to show me how their systems work. We walk off, come back in two minutes, the book that was looked up was "mein Kampf" -- I am black.

    I did not except the job offer.

    CAPTCHA: clueless -- cant say any more.


    Well, I've worked with a project manager who <i>genuinely<i/> believed that "Management Secrets of Genghis Khan" was the most useful book he'd ever read, but I'm curious about this one.

    I hate to ask, really. But what part of Mein Kampf would be useful in a software engineering context? And what part of a library system, other than the part that bans undesirable books, would prompt a quick reference to it?

    And, outside of Idaho and Montana, what State would attract enough programmers to staff a company that relies on books like this one?
  • m0ffx 2007-01-12 06:57
    To help with client customization, my company developed a proprietary language called PROBOL. A major downside to this is that it's almost impossible to find programmers that are willing to spend most of their day developing in it. Because of that, I always made it a point to bring it up early on in the interview so that we didn't waste eachother's time.

    One enthusiastic candidate waited for me to finish my disclaimer on the language, then immediately said, "Wow, that should be fun. I just finished a book on PROBOL last week!"

    Never mind that he might not have been lying outright, but might instead have been confusing the language with either COBOL or PROLOG. Back then, the hiring pool was pretty big. "NEXT!"


    The Real WTF is that those two statements contradict each other.
  • Tigress 2007-01-12 07:02
    real_aardvark:
    I hate to ask, really. But what part of Mein Kampf would be useful in a software engineering context? And what part of a library system, other than the part that bans undesirable books, would prompt a quick reference to it?


    While I completely agree that Mein Kampf isn't exactly the best book to choose in this context, the words "bans undesirable books" make me cringe.

    A group of people once decided that a certain type of books were undesirable. Those books were burned on several occations. That group were the Nazis and the books in question were jewish.

    To ban Mein Kampf because of the history of the nazis only perpetuates this kind of intolerance. After all, purely looking from a historical perspective, Mein Kampf is an important part of our modern history.
  • m0ffx 2007-01-12 07:02
    Peter Antoine:
    Ok, I am pretty sure that I have got the job, just doing the walk around the company, showing me the systems they have in development. He asks one of the current devs to do a book look-up to show me how their systems work. We walk off, come back in two minutes, the book that was looked up was "mein Kampt" -- I am black.

    I did not except the job offer.

    CAPTCHA: clueless -- cant say any more.


    Don't supposed it occured to you that it might have been something like a random book function, or a loan/return/sale/etc. on a certain date on test data grabbed from a real system, or the lookup wasn't on the title or author field.

    And even is it was chosen specifically by that dev, that's just one dev, in how big a company I don't know. And I doubt reading Mein Kampf is a fireable offence.

    You're also assuming that the guy agreed with it.

    So that was rather a hasty turn-down really.
  • Peter Antoine 2007-01-12 07:08
    real_aardvark:

    Well, I've worked with a project manager who <i>genuinely<i/> believed that "Management Secrets of Genghis Khan" was the most useful book he'd ever read, but I'm curious about this one.

    I hate to ask, really. But what part of Mein Kampf would be useful in a software engineering context? And what part of a library system, other than the part that bans undesirable books, would prompt a quick reference to it?

    And, outside of Idaho and Montana, what State would attract enough programmers to staff a company that relies on books like this one?


    It was one of the books in the library (reading/lending library) that the system was being built for. So the proggy was either, have a pop at me, or thought it was funny. Either way not the sort of people/person that I want to spend 8 hours a day with.

    As for G.K secrets, I have worked with some PM's who approach to staff/project management would have made Mr Khan look like a nursery nurse putting his charges down for a nap .

    Example, after a 35 hours weekend -- yes weekend, we finally pushed a project out the door, almost literally onto the plane (UPS van, to the airport, to Saudi Arabia - with an hour to spare after finishing the code). Monday morning at 11am (4 hours after leaving the office), the PM phoned one of the devs that has been in all weekend for some advice on a project that was not due for three months.
  • Peter Antoine 2007-01-12 07:25
    m0ffx:

    And even is it was chosen specifically by that dev, that's just one dev, in how big a company I don't know. And I doubt reading Mein Kampf is a fireable offence.

    You're also assuming that the guy agreed with it.

    So that was rather a hasty turn-down really.


    It was chosen by the dev, it was the lookup function of the library system. He was asked to look up a book.

    Would you have made such a joke to someone you did not know on first meeting? Would you really want to spend time with such a fool? It was a small company 20 people max.

    Also, in my experience, you find where such jokes are tolerated by the others people in the office, it points to a general culture that makes that sort of rubbish acceptable behaviour. I really want to spend years of my life being called "chalky" or other such brilliantly funny nick names. You cant complain that it annoys you, as all you get is "grow a sense of humour" type responses. Nah, I rather go a work somewhere were people have a real sense of humour, and life wont be a struggle with idiots all day.
  • GJ 2007-01-12 07:35
    Once had an interview for a Oracle DBA position, trading company turning over a very nice proffit, highly critical 24 hr jobby, eveything in production including dev systems, you know the sort. Everythings going OK.

    "So Mr J, do you have any questions for us?"
    "Yes. Can you give me an idea about your backup, regime. Types, times, sizes, etc?"

    Blank looks between IT Head and lowly Windows SQL Server techie filling in for missing DBA.

    Mr IT Head: "Well I believe we do them, but ermm, I think there are...ermm, well I do know the last one was about a month ago, I think? Well that's what you will be able to sort out! Right? Any other questions?"

    I wanted to say: "Yes, where's the front door? This ship is sinking fast and stuff is gonna fly. You have no idea what your dept is doing and you techie here obviously couldn't even save a doc file to a floppy!", but I just thanked them and left very quickly.

  • ngist 2007-01-12 08:03
    I had one of those four hour long interviews once. It wasn't so bad I talked to some of the engineers and project managers. Some were more interested in giving me life advice than hearing about my qualifications, but whatever most of it was good advice. All was going pretty well until the wrap up lunch.

    As it turns out my interview happened to be scheduled the same day as someones retirement lunch. Guess where I ended up for lunch. That was akward especially since I was all dressed up in a suit for the interview and everyone else was in kahkis I stuck out like a sore thumb.

    Interestingly enough while I was at the lunch the guy I was "interviewing" with told me a story about an inteview he had fresh out of college that lasted 3 days, one of which was him partying at the CEO's house.
  • Another Infidel 2007-01-12 08:50
    I once conducted an interview for a Perl coding position and a guy called Stephan showed up. Wearning diapers. Only. Taken aback, I asked him "Do you know what perl is?" and he immediately got out a pair of knitting needles and some wool (never mind from where, and yes, it was *big* diaper) and said "See, this is 'purl'" ...

    Don't believe it? Well, I made this up, just like ole' Steph made up the slander about Rajib the (real) Injun ...

    Seriously, I have worked in the IT industry for over two decades, and I have never ever seens anyones parents turning up to give a proxy interview (even Stephan's).
  • Another Infidel 2007-01-12 08:55
    I once conducted an interview for a Perl coding position and a guy called Stephan showed up. Wearing diapers. Only. Taken aback, I asked him "Do you know what perl is?" and he immediately got out a pair of knitting needles and some wool (never mind from where, and yes, it was a *big* diaper) and said "See, this is 'purl'" ...

    Don't believe it? Well, I made it up, just like ole' Steph made up the slander about Rajib the (real) Injun ...

    Seriously, I have worked in the IT industry for over two decades, and I have never ever seen anyones parents turning up to give a proxy interview (even Stephan's).
  • hanno 2007-01-12 08:56
    Tigress:
    To ban Mein Kampf because of the history of the nazis only perpetuates this kind of intolerance. After all, purely looking from a historical perspective, Mein Kampf is an important part of our modern history.


    While I don't disagree with any of your statements, I think that not only is Mein Kampf a pathetic piece of writing - it is so bad that most thinking people will be unable to read more than a few pages at a time - it is also overrated in its historical importance in the sense that most Germans knew of its existence but never read it. An interesting fact is that the German authorities have indirectly banned the book, the licensing rights belong to the state of Bavaria and they do not licence it to anyone, effectively preventing anyone from printing a long-overdue critical edition for studying purposes.

    Did they offer any kind of explanation as to why they came up this book at the company?
  • matt s 2007-01-12 09:05
    Years ago, before I had heard of such things, I had a 10 hour interview while expecting only 1-2. When they delivered pizza for the team I figured I might as well eat. Then I got a call the next day that I needed to return to pick up some paperwork. I was livid, but needed the job so I smiled and went and did it. I later found out that the paperwork "problem" was not an accident, the office manager thought I was cute and wanted to see me again. Sounds terrible, but we did end up getting married so I suppose it worked out for us both.


  • tharfagreinir 2007-01-12 09:09
    I'm shocked and appalled by the fact that nobody who has commented so far has noticed the ambiguity in the phrase 'I Do Models'.
  • Raoul Porfavorny 2007-01-12 09:27
    that was my MOM! We had to move out of state to Rhode Island because of you!
  • sprx 2007-01-12 09:29
    tharfagreinir:
    I'm shocked and appalled by the fact that nobody who has commented so far has noticed the ambiguity in the phrase 'I Do Models'.


    That is probably due to the fact, that everybody here does models, except you. ;)

    Captcha: bedtime, that it is
  • real_aardvark 2007-01-12 09:34
    Peter Antoine:
    real_aardvark:

    I hate to ask, really. But what part of Mein Kampf would be useful in a software engineering context? And what part of a library system, other than the part that bans undesirable books, would prompt a quick reference to it?


    It was one of the books in the library (reading/lending library) that the system was being built for. So the proggy was either, have a pop at me, or thought it was funny. Either way not the sort of people/person that I want to spend 8 hours a day with.


    Ahhh - I see, I see. Clearly an exceptionally ignorant bigot. A well-educated bigot like me would pick a more apposite title, such as "The love-letters of David Duke." Or perhaps a video of "The Birth of a Nation."

    Incidentally, did you know that if you google "racist novel," the preponderance of entries refer either to Huckleberry Finn or to To Kill A Mockingbird? This is the literary equivalent of a WTF.

    hanno:
    Tigress:
    To ban Mein Kampf because of the history of the nazis only perpetuates this kind of intolerance. After all, purely looking from a historical perspective, Mein Kampf is an important part of our modern history.


    While I don't disagree with any of your statements, I think that not only is Mein Kampf a pathetic piece of writing - it is so bad that most thinking people will be unable to read more than a few pages at a time - it is also overrated in its historical importance in the sense that most Germans knew of its existence but never read it. An interesting fact is that the German authorities have indirectly banned the book, the licensing rights belong to the state of Bavaria and they do not licence it to anyone, effectively preventing anyone from printing a long-overdue critical edition for studying purposes.

    Did they offer any kind of explanation as to why they came up this book at the company?


    Yes, typical Teutonic thoroughness there. Rather like the British "Freedom of Information" act, whereby you the citizen can ask for just about anything, and they the civil service can refuse because, well, it would cost too much to look up. (I wish I were kidding.)

    Tigress, sweetheart, you need to develop a facility for ironic detachment. I was not proposing to ban books, or to burn them. I was merely pointing out that the only logical connection between the operation of a public lending library and the "philosophy" propounded (in rotten and unreadable German; I agree) would fall into this category.

    Is that all clear now?
  • el jaybird 2007-01-12 09:36
    Another Infidel:
    Seriously, I have worked in the IT industry for over two decades, and I have never ever seen anyones parents turning up to give a proxy interview (even Stephan's).


    Right. And because YOU've never seen it, it obviously doesn't exist and was made up.

  • wcs 2007-01-12 09:46
    K:
    JRock:
    3rd hour was with the hr manager and we talked about our kids and taking them to amusement parks.


    Wow, an HR manager clueless enough to talk with a candidate about his family? What HR guy doesn't know to steer away from topics like that, since it's illegal to discriminate in hiring based on your marital/family status?


    I had talked one time with a job interviewer about my very pregnant wife. When I was called in for a second interview about two weeks later (after my wife had given birth), I was asked follow up questions about the pregnancy and the birth and whatnot. Sometimes it's not about discriminating or following the letter of the law - sometimes it's just about trying to get to know someone that you may have to work with on a daily basis and making sure the both of you "fit".
  • JRock 2007-01-12 09:54
    Paul:
    I applied to a job as a "PHP/MySQL developer" at a telecommunication company once. During the first interview, I met the company's HR lady. The talk was really positive. The company seemed very nice, too. She asked me I could provide a code sample in a couple of days. Not a problem, of course. I promised I'd mail it the next day.

    I did and got a reply from her a day after, telling me that two of the company's developers had reviewed the code. They thought I'd make a nice addition to the team, and invited me to a second interview. Great.

    This time, four people showed up: the HR lady, the owner of the company, a developer and a DBA. The talk went great. I had a good answer for all the questions they asked me and everyone looked happy. After another hour or so, we all shook hands, and they told me they had another interview later in the day and that they would contact me as soon as they had made a decision.

    The next day, I got a phonecall saying that I got the job. Fantastic. I also got told that they "forgot to mention" something during the interviews. I'd also be a sysadmin for a mission critical server that handled SMS traffic. Plus, I'd have to be on call every night during weekdays and the whole weekend every other week. In fact, coding PHP or MySQL would "probably take up maybe one or two hours a day".

    Clearly not the job I had applied for anymore, I turned it down. The weird thing is that the exact same thing happened to me before, only that they had the guts to just tell it to me during the interview then. (I applied as a PHP/MySQL developer at a gaming company, but during the interview the job description slowly morphed into being a sysadmin for servers that hosted national competitions and the like).


    great story and frankly a big lesson i learned early was to ask as many questions as can you think of during the interview. many moons ago, i was hired by a small consulting firm which had "more work than they could handle". i was given 5k to move and i packed up and headed to a new state. 8 weeks later, i was bored stiff as there was zero work to do. seems that they hired a sales guy with little technical knowledge and he wasn't very good at drumming up business. so, they wanted to convert me to an as/400 guy. ummm...no thanks.

    anyway, i left that job 3 months after landing it (having to give back 1/2 the 5k) and have been with my current company for 8 years.
  • lyates 2007-01-12 09:55
    c++ sucks!
  • Peter Antoine 2007-01-12 10:13
    real_aardvark:
    Ahhh - I see, I see. Clearly an exceptionally ignorant bigot. A well-educated bigot like me would pick a more apposite title, such as "The love-letters of David Duke." Or perhaps a video of "The Birth of a Nation."

    If he had called up "Birth of a Nation" I would also have walked out. Not because of the implied insult, but because he might have been one of those people that think this one of the greatest films ever made (see:http://imdb.com/title/tt0004972/). That level of idiocy needs to be avoided at all costs. Coming into contact with it sucks the IQ points right out of your head.
  • Ymgve 2007-01-12 10:33
    rmr:
    been there:
    Over the years I've gone on a couple of interviews where they ask me how I'd fix a 'hypothetical' production problem. I quickly caught on that they were scambling and didn't know how to fix something, and were looking for some free advice.

    I've also gone on interviews where they'd ask me how to design something. Then I'd notice that they had the kind of sketches you'd normally make when trying to figure out how to do something. If I was *certain* they were looking for free advice, I'd invariably tell them enough to let them know I knew how to solve the problem. Then they'd ask for more information. My response? "I'll tell you the ending after I start work", and then cut the interview short.


    Err, let me guess, you didn't get the job?


    I guess he wouldn't have been given the job anyway. The company were only after the solution to the problem, not the solver.
  • anonymous 2007-01-12 11:07
    Parents for their sons, it's a wtf to be sure, it's stupid. But it's not quite scary/insane.

    A husband coming in with his wife, and talking for her (she was the potential hire, not him), that's just freaky.

    Eventually we hired a woman who, despite being from one of those head-covering religions, could do her own damn interview.
  • sir_flexalot 2007-01-12 11:49
    My favorite stories are the ones that include "... and I bolted, never to return". Awesome!
  • Ashkelon 2007-01-12 12:13
    random_coder():
    Anon:
    md2perpe:
    That database technician probably had Asperger Syndrome.


    I have a brother with this. Since he can function normally in most every respect people just think he's an inconsiderate ass. In reality he really can't do things like use the appropriate tone of voice or explain anything in a subtle manner. Every day we have to remind him "lower your voice", "don't interrupt", "It's good to be passionate about something, but try not to go into so much detail unless you are asked to" but it never sinks in.

    We make it clear that he has to work hard at these things, but to some extent he needs other people to be more understanding. People with Aspergers tend to make good scientists and engineers, but if they can't get past an interview with HR or collaborate with co-workers their talent tends to get wasted.


    As someone with Asperger's - I agree. I've taken to reading acting books to learn how to play "roles" - without that, I'd be the horrid dork everyone avoided in high school. Still do it from time to time, too.

    Funny thing is, most people I've met with Asperger's get along with fellow Aspies just fine...



    Hey! Frantic hand flapping! Another aspie right here!

    captcha poprocks
  • matt s 2007-01-12 12:37
    The issue is not the quality of "Birth of a Nation" (I have not actually seen it but I am told it is pretty good). If they had looked up "Sounder" or "The Color Purple" it would have been almost as bad. The problem was that, upon seeing a person with dark skin, they picked a skin color related movie.


  • Karl von L. 2007-01-12 12:42
    Peter Antoine:
    You also used a "red flag" word. Terms like "Jew" and "Jews" (as a plural for Jew) are generally only used by the far-right, so someone using them in conversation may be letting slip far-right leanings.


    Not to defend the comment made in the interview, but in my experience, terms like "Jew" and "Jews" are often used by Jews. Maybe I should tell my Jewish friends that they shouldn't be using those words?
  • lyates 2007-01-12 12:53

    For instance, why not just place the candidate down in front of a computer (Windows, Unix, whatever they will be using) and have them solve a simple-ish problem using C++?

    And the reason to have them use C++ is that it's my opinion that if someone can write some good C++, they can learn pretty much any language required (there are some exceptions of course).



    C++ SUCKS!
  • Zippy 2007-01-12 13:11
    m0ffx:
    it's almost impossible to find programmers that are willing to spend most of their day developing in it. ... Back then, the hiring pool was pretty big. "NEXT!"


    The Real WTF is that those two statements contradict each other.


    Only to someone with anal compulsions about language.
  • MrBester 2007-01-12 13:12
    SomeCoder:
    For instance, why not just place the candidate down in front of a computer (Windows, Unix, whatever they will be using) and have them solve a simple-ish problem using C++?
    ...And the reason to have them use C++ is that it's my opinion that if someone can write some good C++, they can learn pretty much any language required (there are some exceptions of course).

    Great. I don't know C++. I do, however, know VB(Script|.NET)?, C#, and can still remember most of what I learned of Pascal, C and Java (don't use it any more). Yet, according to your criterion, I'd do really badly simply because I can't write good C++.

    Captcha: pacman. Go Clyde, go!
  • JTK 2007-01-12 13:13

    C++ SUCKS!
    [/quote]

    No, most C++ 'programmers' suck. C++ is fine.

    CAPTCHA: Two to tango
  • akatherder 2007-01-12 13:13
    m0ffx:
    To help with client customization, my company developed a proprietary language called PROBOL. A major downside to this is that it's almost impossible to find programmers that are willing to spend most of their day developing in it. Because of that, I always made it a point to bring it up early on in the interview so that we didn't waste eachother's time.

    One enthusiastic candidate waited for me to finish my disclaimer on the language, then immediately said, "Wow, that should be fun. I just finished a book on PROBOL last week!"

    Never mind that he might not have been lying outright, but might instead have been confusing the language with either COBOL or PROLOG. Back then, the hiring pool was pretty big. "NEXT!"


    The Real WTF is that those two statements contradict each other.


    The hiring pool at large is pretty big. The subset of people who want to work on some magical invented language that sounds like it is COBOL and PROLOG would be nearly impossible to find. I assume.
  • Franz Kafka 2007-01-12 14:31
    Peter Antoine:

    It was one of the books in the library (reading/lending library) that the system was being built for. So the proggy was either, have a pop at me, or thought it was funny. Either way not the sort of people/person that I want to spend 8 hours a day with.



    Perhaps the dev doesn't read that many books and happened to know about Mein Kampf (it is pretty infamous), but didn't clue in that that might be a bad choice for showing to a black guy - you know, clueless geek that plays warcraft all day.

    Or he could just be the local stormfront rep.
  • Franz Kafka 2007-01-12 14:38
    hanno:
    Tigress:
    To ban Mein Kampf because of the history of the nazis only perpetuates this kind of intolerance. After all, purely looking from a historical perspective, Mein Kampf is an important part of our modern history.


    While I don't disagree with any of your statements, I think that not only is Mein Kampf a pathetic piece of writing - it is so bad that most thinking people will be unable to read more than a few pages at a time - it is also overrated in its historical importance in the sense that most Germans knew of its existence but never read it. An interesting fact is that the German authorities have indirectly banned the book, the licensing rights belong to the state of Bavaria and they do not licence it to anyone, effectively preventing anyone from printing a long-overdue critical edition for studying purposes.

    Did they offer any kind of explanation as to why they came up this book at the company?


    I haven't read the book, but it's on my list (fairly far down). Yeah, it may be the ravings of a madman, but it's a madman who conquered europe in living memory, so it's sort of important in that way.
  • Conner 2007-01-12 14:48
    Gee, with as little impulse control as you showed during the interview, I'm stunned they didn't offer to make you the VP of Human Resources.

    You're a freaking poster child for what not to say/do/hire in consulting!
  • pfarrell 2007-01-12 14:50
    I Do Models should have been titled

    "Interview by epoxy"

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

    patf.net
  • Conner 2007-01-12 14:50
    rmg66:
    After moving to Ohio from very integrated Northern California, I interviewed for a consulting job near very segregated Cleveland.

    The Interviewer, an older woman, had mentioned that she lived in Beechwood, a suburb of Cleveland.

    Just off the cuff, and really not meaning any harm, I joked that "Oh Beechwood. My wife tells me that's where all the rich Jews live."

    I didn't mean anything derogatory by it. I just thought that it was funny that they all seemed to live in that one area.

    At any rate, the interview got real uncomfortable after that. She continued, and even went through all the motions of getting me set up as a consultant with the firm and promised to call, if any jobs came up.

    None did, of course.




    Gee, with as little impulse control as you showed during the interview, I'm stunned they didn't offer to make you the VP of Human Resources.

    You're a freaking poster child for what not to say/do/hire in consulting!
  • Erzengel 2007-01-12 15:44
    el jaybird:
    Another Infidel:
    Seriously, I have worked in the IT industry for over two decades, and I have never ever seen anyones parents turning up to give a proxy interview (even Stephan's).


    Right. And because YOU've never seen it, it obviously doesn't exist and was made up.



    QFT

    I went to a driving school once to pick up a friend. The instructor was a commercial truck driver. The entire time there I heard him spout off stories that were completely plausible for a truck driver to have encountered. Then one of the teens in the class "whispered" to one of the others, "There's no way he could have had all this happen to him."
    Excuse me, he's been alive 3 times longer than you have. What makes you think you can possibly know what he could have experianced?

    Unless he was telling tales about dropping a nuke while I wasn't listening...

    Not that I'm saying the Interview By Proxy really happened, or happened the way it is said to have happened, but never let the facts stand in the way of a great story. ;) (Which is what you should be treating TDWTF as: hearsay. I doubt any effort is put in regarding independant confirmation.)
  • Matt 2007-01-12 17:17
    TheD:
    I had an interview once with a manager and the resident "technical guru". I got along great with the manager, but I knew that I was going to have trouble with the technical guy. He had poor hygiene, dressed poorly, and he obviously didn't have the use of one of his arms. I knew that I was going to have trouble because of his attitude and (what I perceived to be) his immediate and obvious dislike for me. He started asking me questions about designing databases. I'd forgotten some of the terms (like E-R diagram and normalization) but I was able to describe the processes effectively. Unfortunately, my knowledge of the processes wasn't what he was looking for, he wanted the actual term. Needless to say, I didn't get the job.


    I had a similar problem with an interview. The actual interview was actually 6 interviews over the course of the day. One of my interviewers had been a classmate at college, and so we got to talk a bit about the other people that work at the company. He mentioned that the next guy who was going to talk to me was one of the smartest people he had ever met, and he was interested to hear how my interview with him went.

    I haven't spoken to him since, but I would have said "Very poorly". The guy walks in and introduces himself, barely even looking at me as he does so (out of lack of social skills as opposed to any latent malice or anything, I assume). Ten seconds into my introduction, he stops me and says "Wait... Do you always talk like this?" Outside of speaking a little too quickly due to nerves, I was annunciating clearly and I do not have a lisp or impediment of any kind. Over the course of the interview he asked me to "Relax" or to "Calm down", and when we finished he simply said "Ok.", got up, and left without so much as a handshake... only to return a minute later to ask me more quickfire technical questions before leaving again.

    Funny thing is that while I didn't get the job, they offered me a contract position - according to the HR person, she had heard nothing but positive things from my interviewers. I declined because while I did want to work for the company, I needed something a bit more permanent.
  • Anonymous 2007-01-12 18:36
    grg:
    >One enthusiastic candidate waited for me to finish my disclaimer on the language, then immediately said, "Wow, that should be fun. I just finished a book on PROBOL last week!"


    Way back we posted a job for someone that knew UCSD Pascal.
    Someone sent in a resume claiming "8 years experience with USCD Pascal".

    He didnt get an interview as:

    (1) "USCD" is a common mangling of "UCSD", mainly seen with people who don't know or can't remember what UCSD stands for.

    (2) "UCSD Pascal" had only existed for about three years at that time. Maybe he put out 266% ??




    Reminds me of the time I read in a Jan. 1998 want ad: "minimum 5 years experience in using Windows 95."
  • i didn't say anything 2007-01-12 20:14
    Volmarias:
    Anonymous:
    How in the world did she have your cell phone number?


    I suspect he meant his office phone; Any office phone should have a delightful number of buttons to press, including one to shunt all calls to voicemail or to say "I'm not available" in some other fashion. If you've ever dialed a call center, gotten to the hold music, heard it ring a couple times, then go back to the hold music, someone pressed their "I'm busy right now" button instead of answering the call.


    No it was my cellphone. I'm guessing she picked it out of the signature in one of the emails I had with this guy.
  • MurdocJ 2007-01-13 00:14
    Sumit:
    This story is a bit too Dilbertian to be true. Lest the Indian name in the story and this comment make it appear like that's a common practice in the East, that's far from the truth. Parents will use their contacts and influence to get their offspring jobs, and nepotism may lead to farcical interviews, but that's another thing and quite universal. If this story is true, it's a wacko story in any culture.


    I believe it because of the part where the interviewer says something like "you can't do this, I have to talk to your son" and the couple says "Yes, he's a good boy, he'll work well for you". I don't know if it's cultural or what, but I've had exactly that conversation with some foreign tech people where you explain why they are wrong, and they start with "Yes" and then say something that indicates that they have completely missed / ignored what you are saying.
  • clayne 2007-01-13 02:40
    [quote user="JTK"]

    Couldn't have said it better.. (this coming from a C programmer).
    C++ SUCKS!
    [/quote]

    No, most C++ 'programmers' suck. C++ is fine.

    CAPTCHA: Two to tango[/quote]
  • clayne 2007-01-13 02:41
    Uhh, the quote and what I actually said are transposed. Strange.
  • clayne 2007-01-13 02:41
    Uhh, the quote and what I actually said are transposed. Strange.
  • Iceman 2007-01-13 08:07
    el jaybird:
    Another Infidel:
    Seriously, I have worked in the IT industry for over two decades, and I have never ever seen anyones parents turning up to give a proxy interview (even Stephan's).


    Right. And because YOU've never seen it, it obviously doesn't exist and was made up.



    Don't be silly.. the reason you've never seen it is because mothers give GREAT interviews.. all the people that sent their mother as a proxy have been *hired* :P
  • Anonymous Coward 2007-01-13 09:05
    A group of people once decided that a certain type of books were undesirable. Those books were burned on several occations. That group were the Nazis and the books in question were jewish.


    Jewish books?! They're the ones with a little skull cap instead of a hardcover, right?
    That aside, I think you'll find that the books being destroyed were those considered 'degenerate', which included pretty much anything that the Nazi regime didn't agree with, regardless of the author's origin.
  • real_aardvark 2007-01-13 12:02
    Franz Kafka:
    hanno:
    Tigress:
    To ban Mein Kampf because of the history of the nazis only perpetuates this kind of intolerance. After all, purely looking from a historical perspective, Mein Kampf is an important part of our modern history.


    While I don't disagree with any of your statements, I think that not only is Mein Kampf a pathetic piece of writing - it is so bad that most thinking people will be unable to read more than a few pages at a time - it is also overrated in its historical importance in the sense that most Germans knew of its existence but never read it. An interesting fact is that the German authorities have indirectly banned the book, the licensing rights belong to the state of Bavaria and they do not licence it to anyone, effectively preventing anyone from printing a long-overdue critical edition for studying purposes.

    Did they offer any kind of explanation as to why they came up this book at the company?


    I haven't read the book, but it's on my list (fairly far down). Yeah, it may be the ravings of a madman, but it's a madman who conquered europe in living memory, so it's sort of important in that way.

    As it happens, I have a degree in History, so I have a vague idea of what might or might not be historically important.

    I really don't recommend reading Mein Kampf, although as Hanno implies, *if* the state of Bavaria licenses publication of a critical edition (ie with commentary, footnotes et al, not something posted to thedailywtf with a bunch of comments explaining how the author should really express race-hatred in German ... ;-), and *if* you can read it in the original German, then go ahead. As an aside, I'm currently watching the Simpsons with Swedish sub-titles, and 90% of the non-visual jokes are simply excised from the text. Not that there are many jokes in Mein Kampf, non-visual or otherwise, but you get my drift.

    In any case, Mein Kampf was written from a prison cell in the specific circumstances of the aftermath of the Beer-Hall Putsch. That's why it's called "My struggle," rather than "Buddha, You Fat Bastard," or, er, I don't think I can make that joke in a family forum ... In other words, it's fairly useless as a historical reference point on Nazi Germany 1933-1945. If you must, read "Hitler's Table Talk" (ISBN 978-0192851802), which is rather better source material and has a sort of queasy sense of unreality in the face of stark reality about it.

    Personally, I'd recommend William L Shirer's "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich," a fine book by a man who'd been there. Americans seem to have this thing about immediacy and primary sources -- I'm not trying to insult, I'm just pointing out a cultural difference -- which can lead to missing out on analytical works. Fortunately, Shirer does both.

    Sorry, that was just a little bit off topic. But, since you asked...
  • hexatron 2007-01-13 13:59
    Karl von L.:
    Peter Antoine:
    You also used a "red flag" word. Terms like "Jew" and "Jews" (as a plural for Jew) are generally only used by the far-right, so someone using them in conversation may be letting slip far-right leanings.


    Not to defend the comment made in the interview, but in my experience, terms like "Jew" and "Jews" are often used by Jews. Maybe I should tell my Jewish friends that they shouldn't be using those words?

    Well, just remember Jew is not an adjective--phrases like 'jew lawyer' or 'jew boss' will likely cause your jew interviewer to jew down your chances for employment.
  • hexatron 2007-01-13 13:59
    Karl von L.:
    Peter Antoine:
    You also used a "red flag" word. Terms like "Jew" and "Jews" (as a plural for Jew) are generally only used by the far-right, so someone using them in conversation may be letting slip far-right leanings.


    Not to defend the comment made in the interview, but in my experience, terms like "Jew" and "Jews" are often used by Jews. Maybe I should tell my Jewish friends that they shouldn't be using those words?

    Well, just remember Jew is not an adjective--phrases like 'jew lawyer' or 'jew boss' will likely cause your jew interviewer to jew down your chances for employment.
  • Scary-IT-Dude 2007-01-13 14:50
    >>Seriously, I have worked in the IT industry for over two decades, and I have never ever seen anyones parents turning up to give a proxy interview (even Stephan's).

    Although I've never seen it, I wouldn't be surprised. We "normal" techie types with active post-work lives and families like to laugh at these outrageous stereotypes. However, I can say that some of them are actually spot-on.

    Here's some of the things I've heard used to refer to all people in our chosen line of work at one time or another. To the rest of the world, we:
    - Live in our parents' basements
    - Have no social skills
    - Lack personal hygiene habits
    - Are "a sexual harassment suit waiting to happen." (actual quote!)
    - Think everyone else around them is stupid.
    - Obsess over science-fiction/fantasy/RPGs, choose your geeky hobby.

    I can say I haven't seen all of these at once, but I have run into a few co-workers over the years with one or more. Therefore, the idea of running into at least one person so socially retarded that their parents interview for them is not out of the realm of possibilities.

    Think about your average night-shift data center sysadmin. The computer business attracts people who are oddballs the same way sales/management attracts extroverts.

    So don't be surprised if Mom walks into one of your interviews. I would be a little shocked, but not totally.
  • NickH 2007-01-14 10:00
    All I can say is a lot of you are clueless and/or full of crap. I was a contractor for many years at a large delivery company and was pulled in many many times to do the tech interview - so I was the uber geek (in a suit).

    - I doubt 3/4 you walked out on as many interviews as you claim. I suppose if the interviews were during the dotcom boom when it was easy to get a job, ok, but this idea that people walk away from potentional jobs due to the HR person being a moron is just stupid. Even if you are convinced the person you are talking to sucks - do you REALLY think you're gonna like everyone at a company? If you refuse to work at places cause a couple of assholes work there...good luck finding a job.

    - If I did your tech interview and you copped an attitude with me, I'd see to it you didn't get the job. Again, I'm trying to envision this bogus interview where you actually say 'no sample code unless you pay me'. Yah. Right. Tell me another one. Either you are lying or you are an idiot. Doesn't really matter which.

    - It's pretty normal to branch the tech interview into non-tech stuff. It's called 'let's see if you are an ass'.

    - I was always upfront about the work load and what type of people you'd be working with. I suppose this amounts to telling people about 'bad code' or whatever. What I didn't want was some pansy-ass quiting the job after they found out it required them to work hard.
  • James 2007-01-14 16:08
    <i>I hate to ask, really. But what part of Mein Kampf would be useful in a software engineering context? And what part of a library system, other than the part that bans undesirable books, would prompt a quick reference to it? </i>

    Burn them! Burn the books! Undesirable! Undesirable!

    Sorry, but I think that "Mein Kampf" should be read by everyone. Only when you've tried to read it (don't worry if you can't finish it; I never did) do you realise exactly how messed up the author actually was. It's like reading Creationist literature today: no logical argument, just a repeated pounding away of "THIS is what is true, because *I* say so!". IMHO, there can be no one single book more damaging to the cause of Nazism than "Mein Kampf".

    Now, searching for THAT book during a job interview for a black guy (or a jewish guy, or a disabled guy, or homosexual or any of the other inferior humans who went through the camps) IS a WTF in itself.
  • real_aardvark 2007-01-14 16:50
    James:
    <i>I hate to ask, really. But what part of Mein Kampf would be useful in a software engineering context? And what part of a library system, other than the part that bans undesirable books, would prompt a quick reference to it? </i>

    Burn them! Burn the books! Undesirable! Undesirable!

    Sorry, but I think that "Mein Kampf" should be read by everyone. Only when you've tried to read it (don't worry if you can't finish it; I never did) do you realise exactly how messed up the author actually was. It's like reading Creationist literature today: no logical argument, just a repeated pounding away of "THIS is what is true, because *I* say so!". IMHO, there can be no one single book more damaging to the cause of Nazism than "Mein Kampf".

    Now, searching for THAT book during a job interview for a black guy (or a jewish guy, or a disabled guy, or homosexual or any of the other inferior humans who went through the camps) IS a WTF in itself.

    Oh well, let's just start off-off-topic. (It's sort of like off-off-Broadway, but without as many winos.)

    I used to hang out with a girl in Georgia (not that it's relevant, but three counties down from the HQ of the Klan). We were sitting in a bar after work, with a couple of co-eds trying to sell lingerie by, well, almost wearing it, when I happened to mention that Americans often take themselves too seriously. "What do you mean?" she asked. "Well, you never seem to take the piss out of yourselves..." I said, and then I realised that this is actually untranslateable, at least in the Southern States.

    Back to being simply off-topic.

    I WAS NOT ADVOCATING BURNING BOOKS!

    Ho ho, eh?

    I do agree with you that reading Mein Kampf (if you have to) will lead any sane human being to recognise that Hitler was a loonie. (Although, frankly, you do have to have a historical perspective on that: don't forget that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was only a thirty-year-old fabrication at the time, and commonly believed to be true.)

    I would also agree that it's on a par with a lot of Creationist literature, at least in terms of being a psychotic abnegation of reality.

    However, you'd be surprised at how non-damaging to the cause Mein Kampf could be. After all, we are talking about people with severely damaged cognitive abilities here. I was a librarian back in high school, and I vividly remember guys with an IQ of 120+ (it was a selective school. Not selective enough, apparently) foaming at the mouth as they took the damn thing out. Hormones, psychosis, warped intelligence and a deep-seated feeling that the world doesn't recognise genius when it sees it ... well, I hope you get the picture.

    Anyway, that's a ridiculous argument. Do you mean to say that you would never have realised what a truly naughty person Hitler was unless you had read his book? What if it was serialised in the National Enquirer, with the more offensive bits chopped out? I mean, what exactly are we saying, here?

    Is Stalin any more likeable because he didn't write the equivalent?

    Would you agree that Genghis Khan is a sadly misunderstood benefactor of mankind who could have written masterpieces along the lines of Tolstoy, if only he hadn't had to rely on Chinese scribes?

    Go away and read analytical works. Otherwise you're just preaching to the choir. Do a bit of thinking for yourself, for a change.
  • dilator 2007-01-15 08:34
    TheD:
    I had an interview once with a manager and the resident "technical guru". I got along great with the manager, but I knew that I was going to have trouble with the technical guy. He had poor hygiene, dressed poorly, and he obviously didn't have the use of one of his arms. I knew that I was going to have trouble because of his attitude and (what I perceived to be) his immediate and obvious dislike for me. He started asking me questions about designing databases. I'd forgotten some of the terms (like E-R diagram and normalization) but I was able to describe the processes effectively. Unfortunately, my knowledge of the processes wasn't what he was looking for, he wanted the actual term. Needless to say, I didn't get the job.


    Surely you wouldnt expect to get a job involving DB design if you couldn't remember 'normalization' - pretty core really!

    captcha: alarm -innit!
  • Ashkelon 2007-01-16 17:26
    NickH:
    Again, I'm trying to envision this bogus interview where you actually say 'no sample code unless you pay me'. Yah. Right. Tell me another one. Either you are lying or you are an idiot. Doesn't really matter which.


    Not lying, certainly not an idiot, and I've had plenty of work over the last 35 years. And no, I don't write code for fun, I ride dressage and eventing for fun. So yes, every bit of code I've written over the last 35 years is and was owned by an employer.

    In point of fact, I've been complimented at interviews for my integrity in NOT providing code belonging to other employers. I'm always happy to provide sample code, for a reasonable fee -- and thereafter have typically been hired and my code implemented in production.

    So, whatever Jack, I've never walked out of an interview, but I have laughed at interviewers (especially interviewers who have so little creativity they can only come up with walking yellow card questions about the length of supervisor calls). And I never, ever, provide code for nothing.
  • Mr Bigot 2007-01-16 21:12
    Well, as a result, he has the job and you don't.
    And I suspect that you would expect him and everyone around not to be offended if you looked up a book on "Martin Luther" King, Malcolm X, Mandela and suchlike. This is called self-righteousness and intolerance - so it's a good thing they don't have to put up with the likes of you at their company.
  • Mr Bigot 2007-01-16 21:18
    Pray tell why is it a bad choice to show "His Kampf" to a black? The book doesn't have a word on the subject of blacks whatsoever.
    Also, "Stormfront" is not an organization, it's a Web forum and as such, has no "local representatives".
    You commies are ignorant and seriously in need of head checking.
  • Mr Bigot 2007-01-16 21:23
    Calling the Protocols a fabrication is the same as calling any fiction book a fabrication. "Those flying dragons and elven princesses are all a dirty lie and fabrication," everyone.
  • anon 2007-01-17 11:48
    And especially to someone who didn't get it that the required language was one the company had _created_ for a specific problem.
  • real_aardvark 2007-01-17 18:45
    Mr Bigot:
    Calling the Protocols a fabrication is the same as calling any fiction book a fabrication. "Those flying dragons and elven princesses are all a dirty lie and fabrication," everyone.

    OK, I tried. Your previous two posts are just evidence of serious Meths Abuse. I strongly suggest that you get on to the ASPoMA - the American Society for the Protection of Methyl Alcohol. It's an innocent little molecule, and you have no right to treat it like that. Particularly not in such genocidal quantities.

    On the other hand: there is a none-too-subtle difference between a self-avowed fabrication -- and almost all fiction I can think of falls into this category -- and a piece of black propaganda written by Russian anti-semites in the 1890s as part of an attempt to justify the pogroms of the times. I would humbly suggest that the mention of dragons, elven princesses (obviously a fabrication: there are twlve) and the like is a category error.

    Never mind. You just get back to those minimalist molecules of carbohydrate. They'll listen to you, even if I can't be bothered to.
  • Mr Bigot 2007-01-17 23:31
    real_aardvark:
    Mr Bigot:
    Calling the Protocols a fabrication is the same as calling any fiction book a fabrication. "Those flying dragons and elven princesses are all a dirty lie and fabrication," everyone.

    OK, I tried. Your previous two posts are just evidence of serious Meths Abuse. I strongly suggest that you get on to the ASPoMA - the American Society for the Protection of Methyl Alcohol. It's an innocent little molecule, and you have no right to treat it like that. Particularly not in such genocidal quantities.

    On the other hand: there is a none-too-subtle difference between a self-avowed fabrication -- and almost all fiction I can think of falls into this category -- and a piece of black propaganda written by Russian anti-semites in the 1890s as part of an attempt to justify the pogroms of the times. I would humbly suggest that the mention of dragons, elven princesses (obviously a fabrication: there are twlve) and the like is a category error.

    Never mind. You just get back to those minimalist molecules of carbohydrate. They'll listen to you, even if I can't be
    bothered to.


    Your (and many Americans') problem is that you're unable to comprehend the point made. The point was, if some work of fiction is "bad" (like, you don't like it), that doesn't mean it's a "fabrication." After all, how many movies about those perfect Jews and the blacks-saving-the-world-from-the-evil-nazi-crackers and some such "non-fabricated" fiction do we have to put up with?

    Also, pray tell, how many people (and Jews) were murdered in the so-called "pogroms?" Then, compare it to the numbers of people murdered by the (mostly Jewish) bolsheviks 10+ years later.
  • Charlie 2007-01-18 21:05
    I consider myself an ubergeek, I spend every waking hour coding, I managed to be a somewhat legendary figure in the community I belong to (we develop OSS, of course). And yet, I know one end of the razor to the other and use it every day, I am happy to don a clean shirt every day (despite working from home), and I take a shower every day. It's quite an afrontery to presume that geeks are all alike. But yes, I like sandals, what's wrong with it? I never understood that: I wear boots in the snow, shoes most of the time of the year and sandals when it's hot.
  • ulzha 2007-01-20 16:44
    Nate:
    Several interviews: one guy with a torn Star Wars t-shirt that looked to be from the movie's original 1977(?) release, another where we went to lunch but got in a tiny fender bender on the way back (no biggie, no one hurt, but HR lady asked me about it worriedly when she led me to the next interview), one guy who had a puzzle question about tree traversal so you can back out easily -- simple, keep a list of left/right moves made, then read that backwards - right? No, he reminded me that absolutely no extra memory could be used, no lists, no nothing. I just couldn't figure out how to do it with *no* extra mem used; he finally gave me the answer: on your way down, repoint the child node ptr back up to the parent where you came from. Ie: alter the tree *as* you traverse it. I asked him "what happens if someone else reads the tree while you've messed with it" He just looked at me funny! Like that couldn't happen! Classic MS - he thought he had the cleverest test but a central flaw would kill the whole thing.


    This is pretty widely known puzzle in narrow audiences: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22link+inversion+traversal%22
  • samer 2007-02-22 17:24
    Sumit:
    This story is a bit too Dilbertian to be true. Lest the Indian name in the story and this comment make it appear like that's a common practice in the East, that's far from the truth. Parents will use their contacts and influence to get their offspring jobs, and nepotism may lead to farcical interviews, but that's another thing and quite universal. If this story is true, it's a wacko story in any culture.
  • amazed by things 2007-02-27 08:15
    Peter Antoine:
    You also used a "red flag" word. Terms like "Jew" and "Jews" (as a plural for Jew) are generally only used by the far-right, so someone using them in conversation may be letting slip far-right leanings.

    Something along the same lines:

    Me at an interview for a small company that develops systems for book libraries. Me and the MD (Managing Director - owns the company) get one really well, we are both sad enough to have written our own OS's, his that are using to base the system on, my for my final year project at uni.

    Ok, I am pretty sure that I have got the job, just doing the walk around the company, showing me the systems they have in development. He asks one of the current devs to do a book look-up to show me how their systems work. We walk off, come back in two minutes, the book that was looked up was "mein Kampt" -- I am black.

    I did not except the job offer.

    CAPTCHA: clueless -- cant say any more.


    One place I worked - a guy had a note on his door - the most beautiful word, the note said, was "Kristallnacht" - which was the night in 1938 when the Nazis had a mass attack on Jews and Jewish businesses, Kristall after the broken glass from broken windows.

    I seriously thought about reporting this anonymously to HR but chickened out.
  • tyrannical 2007-03-10 05:05
    Charlie:
    I consider myself an ubergeek, I spend every waking hour coding, I managed to be a somewhat legendary figure in the community I belong to (we develop OSS, of course). And yet, I know one end of the razor to the other and use it every day, I am happy to don a clean shirt every day (despite working from home), and I take a shower every day. It's quite an afrontery to presume that geeks are all alike. But yes, I like sandals, what's wrong with it? I never understood that: I wear boots in the snow, shoes most of the time of the year and sandals when it's hot.


    Poser
  • icelava 2007-03-11 23:42
    KattMan:
    Sumit:
    This story is a bit too Dilbertian to be true. Lest the Indian name in the story and this comment make it appear like that's a common practice in the East, that's far from the truth. Parents will use their contacts and influence to get their offspring jobs, and nepotism may lead to farcical interviews, but that's another thing and quite universal. If this story is true, it's a wacko story in any culture.


    Call it western confusion. I've heard of this practice and been told it was common, can't recall by whom. I will however always concede to a native of the culture denying it, since in truth, I really don't know better.

    I think that must have been an overly-possessive pair of parents. At least from Southeast Asia where i am from, parents interviewing on behalf of their child is unheard of. I have numerous colleagues from India as well and they are all here on their own.
  • Kanawa 2007-08-24 09:15
    Ayende Rahien:
    Ashkelon:
    And I love the requests for "sample code". I answer "I'm not a slut, I don't give it away. Pay me and I'll give you all the sample code you want."


    You do realize that sample code is one of the best ways to judge the skill of a developer, right?


    You do realize you can show it to them from a CD or something, you don't have to actually _leave_ the code behind after the interview?
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