• Zlodo (unregistered) in reply to SnoodDude
    Anonymous:
    The "Always weat a suit" crowd and the "WTF!?! looks don't matter" crowd are equally wrong.  You're both being _WAY_ too black and white about things.

    Well, I must admit that until now I only ever had interviews with video game development companies, so figuring the dress code was never much of a problem. Regardless of the company, it's always casual, nothing more. Basically whatever you'd wear at home, given that what you'd wear at home is suitable to go outside with. So I just shave, wear a buttoned shirt instead of a t-shirt to be just slightly more formal than the job normally requires, and I'm good to go.

    For the interview in the first company I worked at, I actually brought my Amiga in a sports bag (it's extended and mounted into a medium tower) to show the stuff I had made. Amigas had already been obsolete for years at the time, so it was a bit of a wtf on my part.

  • (cs) in reply to Anon
    Anonymous:
    Anonymous:

     You can still look good in sneakers. One of my common interview outfits is a $100 pair of jeans that are a tad tore up, sneakers, and a nice brightly colored dress shirt (the bright color makes you memorable) with a blazer over it. It's fasionable, comfortable (which is important), and unique.

     You spend $100 on jeans? WTF!
     

    For $100, I'd sure hope they weren't "a tad tore up".  Maybe it costs $20 for the jeans, and $80 to pay someone to tear them up a tad.

  • (cs) in reply to Krakerjack
    Anonymous:

    If you showed up to an interview in Jeans, you honestly look like an idiot.  Sort of like people who show up at a funeral in jeans, or to a wedding in jeans. 


     

    You must not be reading all this, because people have posted instances where this is not true, and where dressing up too much makes you look silly.  It depends upon the locale and the company.

  • MurdocJ (unregistered) in reply to CodeRage
    CodeRage:
    Anonymous:
    So what? He dressed badly and was a little too curious.. Using your selection criteria you would have fired both John Carmack and Steve Wozniak.


    Probably due to the lack of enough common sense to realize that you shouldn't go snooping around someone's office, while they're not there, during a job interview.

    Yet every day I work with and fix boatloads of software WTFs made by people with excellent "common sense".   Go figure. 

    So are you thinking that if someone is utterly clueless they write good code?

  • (cs) in reply to MurdocJ
    Anonymous:

    So are you thinking that if someone is utterly clueless they write good code?

    Maybe they're hoping that the clueless will work for 60+ hours a week. After all, it's quantity, not quality.

  • Anonymous (unregistered) in reply to themagni
    "Oh, while I was waiting I figured I'd walk around to check out the place and read some of these books to see what kinds of programming languages you guy's use here."
    The real WTF here is that he managed to mix up the possessive and plural of "guy" in oral speech. 
  • anonymous (unregistered)

    <font color="#0000ff" size="2">

    (1) After a cpl months at my current company, they started interviewing for Project Analysts. One of the ladies that came in asked during her interview, "Is it okay that I'm a heroin user. I usually take my lunch hour to go shoot up in the car, and then I can function better for the rest of the day."

    -AND-

    (2) At my last company, they brought in this lady who had 10+ yrs DBA experience, hardcore UNIX person. The CTO was really impressed with her experience. After the face-to-face interview, the lady left and the CTO came out and addressed the group of us. He said, "Well, I wondered how she had so much experience! It totally explained it all when she told me she used to be a MAN!"

    </font>

  • (cs) in reply to GrandmasterB
    GrandmasterB:

    But again, you're falling into the same trap... you have absolutely NO basis for that claim.  You might 'feel' that to be the truth because thats what you've been told all these years... and thats fine... just dont try to pass it off as some sort of fact.

    Even if this is not true, there are people that believe it.  That means that you may have someone interview you that believes it, and lose a job because of it.    Maybe you'll say "I wouldn't want to work there anyway", but what if it was just one single person that preferred the other candidate because of that, and a person you would not have had to work closely with?  Would you dismiss an entire job that you might have liked because one of the HR people thought suits were a requirement?

    There may be people that are the opposite; who will downgrade anyone who wears a suit as being too pompous to write good code.  They may exist but they're much rarer.  So odds are you'll do better by overdressing than underdressing.

    I'm not saying you have to have a suit and tie and all that, but just dress one notch better than you normally do.  If you don't know much about the people at the company, then dress two notches better.  Then you can scale it back down at the second interview if necessary.  No one expectes the candidate to wear the same sort of clothes they would on the job, so it's not a "lie" to dress up.

  • (cs) in reply to Fuming
    Anonymous:

    I personally bathe twice daily because I work in close proximity to someone who believes that perfume should be purchased by the gallon, and applied with a power sprayer. Just my luck - I finally get a nice office with actual walls and a door, and they put an animal in the cage with me (sighs)

    <font size="+1">T</font>alk to someone in HR and tell them you think you are allergic to the perfume.  They are trained to deal with multiple chemical sensitivity (MCS).  Strewth!
  • (cs) in reply to anonymous
    Anonymous:
    <font color="#0000ff" size="2">

    (1) After a cpl months at my current company, they started interviewing for Project Analysts. One of the ladies that came in asked during her interview, "Is it okay that I'm a heroin user. I usually take my lunch hour to go shoot up in the car, and then I can function better for the rest of the day."

    -AND-

    (2) At my last company, they brought in this lady who had 10+ yrs DBA experience, hardcore UNIX person. The CTO was really impressed with her experience. After the face-to-face interview, the lady left and the CTO came out and addressed the group of us. He said, "Well, I wondered how she had so much experience! It totally explained it all when she told me she used to be a MAN!"

    </font>
    <font size="+1">D</font>o you work in California?
  • MurdocJ (unregistered) in reply to biziclop
    biziclop:

    Interview stories are fun.

    At least for me, as I always struggle with the non-technical part (I feel tense when I have to talk to people I've never met before, especially when I know it's some kind of test).

    As for the technical part, I once ended up screaming with the interviewer (we've had a little argument about the possibility of field declarations in a Java interface), then I grabbed a keyboard, looked up the part proving me in the JLS and finished with "I wouldn't work in this cesspool even if you payed twice the money I need" and walked out.

    Obviously I feel a bit embarrassed about it now but I think apart from the touchy-feely issues I've done the right thing.
     

    I'm glad I don't work with either you or your interviewer. 

  • enterprisey! (unregistered)

    whew! made iit thorugh without my story being mentioned...

    i once interviewed in the bay area after working my normal, gruelling job. it was so gruelling that, well, i was looking for work - HAAAAAARD.

    anyway, i'm waiting in the hall, this guy comes and gets me, he opens his door for me and i go and sit down.

    as soon as i sat down, i started thinking... "hmmmm, this chair isn't the normal interview kind of chair..."

    then i hear it, "excuse me, you are sitting in my chair."

    i look up and remember thinking, "when is my next interview?" there is was sitting in this poor guy's chair, behind his desk and all he could do was ask me to get out of his seat.

    needless to say, i didn't get that job. -lol-

    then there was the boss from h*ll TBFH. he seems to get around.

    i interviewed with a group of folks and they all liked me pretty well and thought i'd be a great fit. then it was time to interview with the TBFH. one of my prior interviewers takes me to his office and he responds, without taking his eyes off his two desktop and 3 laptop monitors, "it isn't 2:00 yet" in a gruff voice. you woulda thought if he took his eyes off the monitors the building would collapse.

    well, he was right. it was 1:58.

    anyway, he interviews me for a bit and we start discussing SPC (statistical process control). he asks what sample size is correct and i said it is an economic tradeoff between cost and effort of getting the samples and expected return of getting the information, but a typical sample size is 4 inspections.

    he asked me why i thought that number was good. i said i used my textbook as a basis for the number since i didn't know anything about an actual problem. he took issue with me and said his number was better. he picked the 3 or 4 number that i didn't pick.

    "we must've read different SPC books."

    i left knowing i didn't want that job b/c this dude was an idiot.

    anyway, i ended up getting hired down in san diego and a few months later i received a call asking me if i were still interested in working for that company - TBFH had moved along.

    "no thanks, i'm happily employed in sunny san diego."

    i hate interviewing - and i wear nice suits, too. i still hate it. it doesn't help that i'm in my 40s and look like i'm 25 (i still get carded when buying beer). anyway, i don't particularly want to look 15+ years older just to have a better shot in an interview... maybe when i'm 60 i'll start getting some "distinguished" credibility just by looking the part.

  • (cs)
    Alex Papadimoulis:
    A sharp young programmer who came highly recommended to us came in for interview. His suit didn't fit well (at least he had one) and he wore sneakers. Normally this would put me off, but he was a young guy so I looked past it.

    Well, I hope your company gets all the self-absorbed Armani suit and Bruno Magli shoes wearing a$$holes it deeply deserves.

    Anonymous:

    Q: Could you walk me through the request-response cycle for a request to a web application, from the user's browser to the web server, and perhaps to a database, then back?

    A: No.

    I can use Frontpage, hence I am a web programmer. Brillant!

    themagni:

    I get my jeans at Costco. $15 / pair for blue, $20 / pair for black...

    People spend too much on stuff like that.

    I don't know about Costco jeans, but cheap stuff often comes with a big catch (that you aren't aware of when buying, otherwise they wouldn't sell anything). I bought some shoes at a shoe discounter one and a half years ago (I think they are called Oxfords in English-speaking countries) and they seemed just great - nice look, comfortable and very affordable.

    Now the catch is... not much more than a year later, one of the pairs already started to fall apart, the soles are disintegrating. On both shoes, so it's not very likely not a rare defect. At first, the damage seemed slight but after further wear the soles have several stripe-shaped holes and are no longer waterproof, IOW the time has come to throw them away - already. These 30€ (IIRC) seemed a true bargain but they were not well spent. On the other hand, I've heard of shoes that have cost five times that amount or more but were passed on from father to son.

    A different example: energy-saving lamps. Many people think that these are expensive, and if you compare the purchase price to ordinary light bulbs, they are right. But if you take the much longer life expectancy and much lower electricity usage into account, things are very much reversed! You can do the math yourself - an ordinary 60W bulb lasts about 1000h, in which time it will obviously consume 60 kilowatt hours of electricity. In Germany that means that the amount of money spent on operating that light bulb over its life-time exceeds its purchase price by about 2400% (in words: two thousand and four hundred percent).

    So at the risk of sounding like a manager: A light bulb has an excellent purchase price but a very poor total cost of ownership. I.e. a light bulb is a good choice only if it's only very rarely used or only on for short periods of time (something that energy-saving lamps don't like that much), but certainly not in your living room.

    I would say the same thing goes for Apple vs. PC discounter (and Windows XP), but that's my opinion. In any way, when people wonder why I bought an "expensive" Mac notebook, they don't take into account how unhappy I'd be with a crappy Dell (I have one at work and that's enough, thank you) or how much time I'd have to spend to make Windows XP barely usable and secure, let alone fun to use. Of course there is some decent other hardware, and a modern Linux with KDE isn't bad, but then we're basically talking about the same price range, unless you are ignoring the fact that even supposedly "premium", $3000, non-Apple notebooks like the Sony VAIO VGN-AR21S come with a slower processor than the new 17" MacBook Pro, one and a half hours maximum battery life, 100 Mbps Ethernet, no FireWire 800, 533MHz RAM despite presence of a 667MHz FSB, two disks with same total capacity as one disk in the cheaper 17" MBP (think about weight and power consumption), much slower CD burning, and so on. Not to mention the plastic case. :-)

    Krakerjack:
    Wow i'm actually shocked to see that people believe their appearance doesn't matter during an interview.

    You are badly mistaken, on two accounts. The first is the implication that appearance doesn't matter because people called BS on the skip deep interviewer's quote. Read it again: There is a sharp young programmer who came highly recommended and yet at first he didn't even want to interview him because of a suboptimal suit and shoes.

    So in this case, appearance not only matters but takes precedence over technical skills. This would be understandable in extreme cases, like the candidate showing up in caveman rags and smelling of cow dung... but this wasn't the case here. And while you think a suit isn't necessary if appearance is decent and tidy (a point I emphatically agree with), the quoted interviewer did think that not only a suit, but a well fitting suit was mandatory to even get an interview.

    Your second mistake (correct me if I'm overinterpreting your posting, though) is the implicit assumption that interviews are a kind of game, and that one should use all possible means to win that game. I disagree because an interview lasts for hours but a job often lasts for years. What would be the point if I manage to get hired by a company that I wouldn't want to work for in the first place, with people that I wouldn't want to work with?

    I don't believe in lying. Not necessarily because I'm such a good person - it's just my experience that typically no lasting good comes from it. People will find out, and if lying to others often goes hand in hand with lying to yourself. Wearing things that do not feel like me (e.g. ties) is, in my eyes, lying, so I just don't. Is that so hard to understand?

    And that is one reason why, as long as I can afford skipping some opportunities that I heavily dislike, I will certainly not bend over to some corporate fucker who thinks that wearing a nice-fitting suit is an interviewee's primary qualification. My talents are certainly spent best in places where they are appreciated, don't you think? (Fortunately this is very much the case in my current job, my sympathies go to the less fortunate TDWTF readers.)

    Basically what I like to wear for an interview is very much what I would not be ashamed to wear for our traditional family lunch on Christmas. Things that are (1) decent and certainly not too fancy, (2) elegant and tidy, and (3) in my eyes look fashionable on me, and (4) that I feel suit my personality (excuse the pun), which means they need not tell all about me but they must not tell things that aren't true. For example: no sandals (fails tests 1 to 3), no sneakers (fails at least test 2), no hawaii shirt (fails at least tests 1 and 4), no muscle shirt (fails test 1), no torn jeans (fails tests 1 to 3). But also, I would not wear suits or ties because it's just not me (test 4) and basically if it's not me, then I probably do not think the stuff looks fashionable on me either (there goes test 3).

    An example of what I have worn, on the other hand, is: Unicolor black cotton pullover, intact dark blue jeans (of course in the proper size and all), dark red-brown shoes. If that's a problem someplace, e.g. if you think I'm an "idiot" for wearing jeans, we wouldn't get along anyway in all likelihood, so let's not pretend.

    @John Doe: Bean bag girl is pornographic? WTF? You know, pornography involves depictions of a P and a V interacting in a way that's not a counting semaphore. Or at least some naked reproductive organs. A pretty girl sitting in a chair is not pornography unless you're a bible-thumping redneck. Even if she's barefoot. The mere fact that you get a hard-on from seeing a pretty girl in a chair does not make it pornography either. Hope that helps clear things up.

  • Newt (unregistered) in reply to Guy

    You've got to be kidding right? So far at my company, how dressed an engineering candidate is, is almost without exception inversely related to their qualifications and chances of getting hired.

  • Newt (unregistered) in reply to Guy
    Anonymous:
    Anonymous:
    His suit didn't fit well (at least he had one) and he wore sneakers. Normally this would put me off, but he was a young guy so I looked past it.

    This certainly put me off.  I wouldn't want to work for a company whose VP of Tech judged candidates based on how well their suit fit or whether they wear sneakers.

     

    Grow up, people care how you look.  If an interview isn't important enough to you to dress up a little bit then how is the company's software project going to be important enough for you to work hard on it?

     

    You've got to be kidding right? So far at my company, how dressed an engineering candidate is, is almost without exception inversely related to their qualifications and chances of getting hired.    

  • (cs) in reply to John Doe
    Anonymous:

    I thought I'd mention in case that somebody responsible of this site noticed, but the advert is clearly pornographic. Is there supposed to be pornographic adverts or not?

    I just think it's a bit weird to have a you know, clean site with just nerd stuff so I can browse it at work, but if there are pornographic images that I don't even notice until it is too late, like my boss showing behind my shoulder, well, I'd just hate that.

    Are you talking about the one with the banana? 

  • Anon (unregistered) in reply to Newt
  • Anonononymous (unregistered) in reply to biziclop
    biziclop:

    . If I would be absolutely qualified for a job but the lack of a suit prompted the interviewer not to hire me then it's probably a wtf job. (Yes, this is another illogical, superstition-like assumption from me but I know no better way to avoid absolute wtf jobs.)



    That's not irrational. I don't want to work somewhere where I need to where a suit. If I'm told I have to
    wear a suit to an interview, I can know that I don't want the job and save us both some time.
  • (cs) in reply to Radiantmatrix
    Anonymous:
    Anonymous:
    Anonymous:
    His suit didn't fit well (at least he had one) and he wore sneakers. Normally this would put me off, but he was a young guy so I looked past it.

    This certainly put me off.  I wouldn't want to work for a company whose VP of Tech judged candidates based on how well their suit fit or whether they wear sneakers.

     

    Grow up, people care how you look.  If an interview isn't important enough to you to dress up a little bit then how is the company's software project going to be important enough for you to work hard on it?

     

    I happen to agree with both you and the individual you were replying to.  Your views aren't contradictory.  The guy did come in wearing a suit -- even though it was ill-fitted and paired with sneakers.  That shows that he was trying to be respectful and that he thought the interview was important.

    For a technical position (and speaking as someone with experience as a hiring manger), it is important that the candidate be dressed in a way that shows his/her professionalism -- tidy, clean, and business-appropriate.  The bad-suit-and-sneakers combo may not be stylish, but if it was clean then he gets points for the effort.

    The quality and/or fit of the suit and the type of shoes worn with it only point to the candidate's sense of style and how able they are to afford nice clothes.  A good sense of style might be important for a sales rep, but not for most entry-level tech jobs.

     

     

    That is very true.  I showed up at work one day wearing khaki pants, a khaki shirt and black shoes and a black belt.  I looked utterly ridiculous.  But the point isn't that I dress badly.  I didn't realize it until half way through the day when I remembered my girl friend making fun of me last time I wore the combination.  THe point is that I take my job seriously enough to put on a button up shirt and tuck it in and such.  And no, you don't have to do that and I don't on fridays either. 

  • Cheong (unregistered) in reply to Annonymous

    Anonymous:
    Apple Solaris?? It would have been a little more funny if they said Apple Solaris with the .NET Framework... a big jumble of 3 totally different platforms!! Totally WTF

    Actually, if I were the interviewer, I could be bluffed by this.

    I'm thinking he is installing MacOSX to a Solaris workstation, or installing SunOS to a Mac. :P
     

  • Dwayne (unregistered) in reply to A Businessman
    A Businessman:

    How about this one: "Due to budgetary constraints, my current project is being put on hold indefinitely, and there does not appear to be enough work to keep all of us busy. While the company has not made any moves toward layoffs, I prefer to be productive, and am proactively looking for a challenge. I understand the project for which I'm interviewing is a substantial effort - can you shed some light on it?"



    Right... and if your interviewer, after hearing that, isn't bright enough to sniff and go "well look at that, a great steaming pile of bullshit has just landed on my head!", why would you want to work there?

  • The Canker of Your Words (unregistered)

    I think that high horse might be a mule. 


    Apple's A/UX operating system was often referred to as Apple's 'Solaris' when SysAdmins discussed it with others in the industry who didn't understand the intricacies of the OS. Especially when it became evident that the other party had no idea what A/UX was. That's probably exactly what he was referring to.

    A/UX was based on SVR4, as was Solaris 2.0. Get the picture? While it's possible he was just wrong, there is a better chance he was right, and was trying to find some simple way to explain it to you. You should have listened. 

  • Anon E Mous (unregistered) in reply to Krakerjack
    Anonymous:

    Wow i'm actually shocked to see that people believe their appearance doesn't matter during an interview.

    I don't necessarily think a suit is required.  Nice pants, a button shirt, perhaps a tie, polished shoes are an absolute must.  Sure if you have a PH.D from MIT or you helped develop TCP/IP who cares what you look like, but come on people grow up.  The whole trick is to give them the least amount of reasons to dislike you.

    If you showed up to an interview in Jeans, you honestly look like an idiot.  Sort of like people who show up at a funeral in jeans, or to a wedding in jeans. 

    Why do so many people believe that an interview is a one-way thing?  It's a chance for you to see if the company is somewhere you'd actually want to work at, as much as it is for the company to decide if you're suitable.  I love the comment about "the whole trick".  Screw that.  If your ability doesn't stand out enough to win the job without tricks, you don't deserve it.  For myself, I wear for interviews what I would wear to work day to day: jeans and a short sleeved shirt.  It's been a conversation piece in a number of interviews, in fact.

    "Any reason in particular you chose to wear that to an interview?" 

    "Yep.  If you were going to make a judgement on how I was dressed, I'd know for sure this wasn't somewhere I'd want to work"

    I got that job.

    I've politely thanked interviewers for their time and left interviews where comments were made on my clothing.  I've asked obviously uncomfortable interviewers if they felt my clothing was inappropriate, and politely thanked them for their time and left when they answered positively.  Saves both sides wasted time trying to see if the square peg will fit in the round hole.

  • Nathan (unregistered)

    It's stories like these that make me wish I could get programming interviews; it's not that I don't know how, it's that I don't have any professional experience outside the occasional freelance gig (and I don't have anywhere near the amount of freelance stuff I'd need to be able to kick the day job). Any suggestions from the trenches on how to break in?

  • dsfgsddsfgsdfgdsffg (unregistered) in reply to Anon E Mous
    Here's an interview I had once as the interviewer with a candidate:
    Me: "So I'm going to ask you some technical questions now."
    Him: "Okay, great."
    Me: "I'll start off really easy just to settle you down.  What does HTML stand for?"
    Him: "Hmm, umm, okay, umm, yeah, umm, umm, umm..."
    Me: "Okay, thanks, goodbye."
    This guy claimed he had three years of web development experience.  Yeesh.
  • Rad Hard (unregistered) in reply to jfruh

    jfruh:
    One thing that I think people are missing about the interview that prompted this is the combo of suit and sneakers.  I think anyone who's not totally divorced from normal interactions with fellow humans knows that wearing sneakers with a suit is wildly inappropriate, fashion-wise.  If you're going to wear sneakers, you should just wear casual clothes.  It's not a matter of spending money -- you can get a pair of perfectly servicable dress shoes at the Salvation Army for less than $20 that will bear up under the casual scrutiny of a job interview for an IT job.  Wearing sneakers with a suit means that you either (a) are being deliberately eccentric in your dress -- which I'm all for, but I don't think a job interview is really the context for that, or (b) you're kind of crazy.

    jfruh is right! Everybody else talking about whether or not suits are appropriate is missing the point. The point here is that the guy tried look good by dressing in a suit and he failed. That, and wandering into somebody's office when asked to stay in the interview room, forcing people to hunt him down, shows bad judgement. More than enough reason not to hire the guy.

    Captcha: paula

     

  • rob_squared (unregistered) in reply to oGMo
    Anonymous:
    His suit didn't fit well (at least he had one) and he wore sneakers. Normally this would put me off, but he was a young guy so I looked past it.

    This certainly put me off.  I wouldn't want to work for a company whose VP of Tech judged candidates based on how well their suit fit or whether they wear sneakers.

    A little while ago I would have sided with you on this.  But the thing I realized after a while was that its not really important what you look like, its just a sign of respect to wear a suit when showing up at an interview.  Most jobs that I've worked for or interviewed for had a pretty lax dress code.  Its that first impression kind of mantra.  Heck, I usually shave off my beard when going to an interview (only to grow it back later, hehe).
     

  • Ferdinand (unregistered) in reply to rob_squared

    This is why I like to interview for small companies where the boss used to be more technical but is now looking for young people to take up the design and implementation while he trolls around golfing and drudging up more business.

  • (cs) in reply to OldSunGuy
    Anonymous:

    I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but I always read these postings with some trepidation that I might recognize myself as the interviewee.  Only after reading through the whole thing I can say to myself, "I don't think that ever happened to me..."

     It's the same with the code snippets being held up for ridicule.  "I hope that's not something I wrote..."

     

     

    Right up to the bit where he snooped around in the bookshelf,  the tight-suited guy was just like me. My second interview, ever.
     

    I even remember a big blooper from it - when the interviewer asked me a question about Keynesian economics.

    This was a market analyst firm. The question was high-school economics, standard level. And I was right out of high-school. Should have been prepared for it and expected it. Unexpectedly, they were still considering me for the internship after that. 

  • Gavin (unregistered) in reply to UMTopSpinC7

    "My lawyer says I'm not allowed to talk about it till the court case is over."

    For when you don't want the job, naturally.

  • (cs) in reply to dsfgsddsfgsdfgdsffg
    Anonymous:
    Here's an interview I had once as the interviewer with a candidate:
    Me: "So I'm going to ask you some technical questions now."
    Him: "Okay, great."
    Me: "I'll start off really easy just to settle you down.  What does HTML stand for?"
    Him: "Hmm, umm, okay, umm, yeah, umm, umm, umm..."
    Me: "Okay, thanks, goodbye."
    This guy claimed he had three years of web development experience.  Yeesh.

     I do hope your joking, Ok given HTML is a pretty wel known acronym, but to send him away at just that is just plain stupid.

    or you where offcourse looking for somone to write down the full versions of lots of tech acronyms.
  • (cs) in reply to MurdocJ
    Anonymous:
    biziclop:

    Interview stories are fun.

    At least for me, as I always struggle with the non-technical part (I feel tense when I have to talk to people I've never met before, especially when I know it's some kind of test).

    As for the technical part, I once ended up screaming with the interviewer (we've had a little argument about the possibility of field declarations in a Java interface), then I grabbed a keyboard, looked up the part proving me in the JLS and finished with "I wouldn't work in this cesspool even if you payed twice the money I need" and walked out.

    Obviously I feel a bit embarrassed about it now but I think apart from the touchy-feely issues I've done the right thing.
     

    I'm glad I don't work with either you or your interviewer. 

    You may be right but I'd be curious what would your reaction have been if an interviewer laughed in your face and told you "You obviously don't know what you're talking about." when you knew you were perfectly right. (After all, this was not a question of opinions, he denied the facts written in the specification and tried to convince me I'm stupid.)

  • miraculixx (unregistered) in reply to Anonymous

    Also keep in mind that behaviour during interviews is a certain indication of future behaviour during work. And you sure don't want your programmers snooping around and finding solutions to problems that no one has ever told them about. Or do you, now?

     

  • codeMonkey (unregistered) in reply to oGMo

    "...or whether they wear sneakers..."

    You're (h)(f) ired: we only wear Nike Chash in this company :)

  • NeoMojo (unregistered) in reply to Nathan

    I have been programming since I was 10. I have a Masters degree in Interactive Intelligent Systems. I have a sufficiently varied array of clothes, so that I can look presentable if needs be (which it does at my current job, they're the smart casual type, where they prefer you to be more on the smart side). I'm friendly, I get along with people (and I try hard to), I know many IDEs and languages.

    I am, in short, a good programmer and worker.

    Unfortunately (until recently) I'd only had about 6 months total industry experience, and a couple of freelance gigs.

    Without the mystical 2-3 years industry experience I couldn't get a job. The best advice people could offer me was to somehow work a full time job to pay rent (in a call center) and work for some firm for free to gain experience.

    In the end, six months ago, I got my break. I'm now a bottom rung programmer at a financial institution.
     
    How did I get in you ask? My dad knows the head of IT.

    So, you see, talented people are screwed.

  • NeoMojo (unregistered) in reply to NeoMojo

    That was in reply to

     

    Nathan

    I have been programming since I was 10. I have a Masters degree in Interactive Intelligent Systems. I have a sufficiently varied array of clothes, so that I can look presentable if needs be (which it does at my current job, they're the smart casual type, where they prefer you to be more on the smart side). I know many IDEs and languages. I am, in short, a good programmer and worker. Unfortunately (unitl recently) I'd only had about 6 months total

  • NeoMojo (unregistered) in reply to NeoMojo

    or infact

    nathan

    It's stories like these that make me wish I could get programming interviews; it's not that I don't know how, it's that I don't have any professional experience outside the occasional freelance gig (and I don't have anywhere near the amount of freelance stuff I'd need to be able to kick the day job). Any suggestions from the trenches on how to break in?

  • mouseover (unregistered) in reply to Anon

    Wow! Never seen this much web real estate and passion spent on geek clothing habits before. Must struck some deep-seated thingy in the collective IT psyche.

    Captcha: initech -- wierdly like the name of an ex-employer 

  • b0red (unregistered) in reply to NeoMojo
    NeoMojo:
    I am, in short, a good programmer and worker.

    Unfortunately (until recently) I'd only had about 6 months total industry experience, and a couple of freelance gigs.

    Without the mystical 2-3 years industry experience I couldn't get a job.

    Unles you live in the middle of nowhere, you are doing something wrong.

    Perahps your resume sucks.

    Perhaps your interview skills suck.

    Perhaps your interpersonal skills suck.

     

    I suspect that you're too arrogant, though. I've seen the "I've been programming since I was 10" mindset and it generally translates to "I have 15 years programming experience." That, of course, laughable. Face the facts: you have ZERO experience and need a entry-level job. There are plenty of those out there.

    Don't go into tech support, though. You're better to have no job than that. Keep looking, lower your ego and your expectations.

  • (cs)

    Wow... this basically turned into three pages of discussing how to dress for an interview. Who am I to buck that trend?

     I've been told, and read, that you should dress one degree higher than your interviewer. For an IT job, I think that's BS. If I'm working with a recruiter, I just ask them what the dress code is and dress appropriately. Typically, though, I wear khaki's, a long sleeve shirt (untucked of course) and nice shoes (untied, most of the time). If I feel like dressing it up a bit, I'll tuck my shirt in and tie my shoes. I own a few suites but I'll politely decline any interview where the work attire is business professional... there are plenty of great places to work, why cramp my style?

     I have had a few odd interviews. For one, I interviewed with two directors and then the VP. The directors interrupted the interview with the VP to give me an offer letter. I hadn't had a chance to meet the rest of the team or even discuss what my responsibilities were. I did take the job, but not until I figured a few things out.

    I once had a really informal interview. You know, get together for coffee and all that, just to talk about potential opportunities at the company. It turns out that I had worked with one of the guys there before. They had an offer right after the meeting but I ran. I ran fast. You see, I used the time to interview them about their company and their prospects.

    Actually, come to think of it, almost all of my interviews have been weird. For my current job, I had the time screwed up for my interview so I ended up showing up half an hour late. The hiring manager then proceeded to tell me about his group and what I would be doing for the next half an hour. At the end of that, he said 'well, I guess that concludes our interview, do you have any questions?' I said that yes, I did, in fact... didn't he want to know anything about my skillset, my experience, if I knew anything, what my weaknesses were.. you know, those basic interview questions. He said no, he had already asked around. The director (his boss) called up with an offer about an hour later.

     On the interviewer side of the table, I'm actually a bit put off when someone shows up in a suit. If I worked in a structured environment, I would understand... but, we always tell our recruiters and interviewees that our dress code is khakis and a dress shirt casual month at the office. Overdressing just comes off as uppity. I never take into account what they're wearing, though. I'm more interested in how they think and if they can reasonably explain their ideas and experience. Senior devs are expected to know more and be able to be leaders. Junior devs are expected to be able to think for themselves. Everyone should show that they can solve problems and demonstrate that I won't need to babysit them.

  • Pasa (unregistered) in reply to Ayende Rahien
    Anonymous:
    biziclop:

    if( this == null ) return ERROR; //the downside of search-replace refactoring

     Um, why??

    I don't like the ERROR part, since it usually means a global variable, but there are valid reasons to do this.   

    This code is probably C++, where it is certainly possible to get to this point. I have written such code (that tests for this == null) to handle NullObject pattern.

    There are no valid reason to do that. And in C++ you can not get to that point without invoking undefined behavior. And for that reason the compiler is free to remove the check entirely too.  If you see such code consider it as a bug and go around fixing it. Not there, but at caller site, dereferencing the null pointer.  

     

     

  • Pasa (unregistered) in reply to SwordfishBob

    Anonymous:
    .. then there's showing you're willing to make an effort, in things that mightn't seem so important to you but do matter to other people..

     

    LOL.  So now do you hire a programmer or a precog?  How do you know in adwance that the interviewer will be a jerk who is looking after your suit instead of your relevant skills -- or a real professional? Before getting there?

    Btw I think this suit business is not that bad -- just keep your regular clothing, and you can avoid the suit-seeking companies who are left with the mediocre leftover anyway, while those looking for real and relevant values get the cream.

     

  • Pasa (unregistered) in reply to SwordfishBob

    Anonymous:
    .. then there's showing you're willing to make an effort, in things that mightn't seem so important to you but do matter to other people..

     

    LOL.  So now do you hire a programmer or a precog?  How do you know in adwance that the interviewer will be a jerk who is looking after your suit instead of your relevant skills -- or a real professional? Before getting there?

    Btw I think this suit business is not that bad -- just keep your regular clothing, and you can avoid the suit-seeking companies who are left with the mediocre leftover anyway, while those looking for real and relevant values get the cream.

     

  • Dave (unregistered) in reply to Nick

    You don't read these websites at work? Even though it's work related? How else do you do research on subjects that are important to a work project? My boss brings me his IT magazines for me to read....delivers them to my desk! Gotta stay sharp....

  • Da' Man (unregistered)

    In a job interview for a position as System Admin I was asked to describe the process of sending a mail via SMTP. Well, I went into minute detail, including DNS-lookup for the MX record and all that stuff.

    Just to hear from the current sysadmin (who was about to leave the company and obviously had problems to let go of his beloved servers) that I missed out the most important part: the firewall!

    Well, yes, I also left out the Ethernet cables and the "Send Now" button in the mail app. Maybe they should have specified the level of detail they want to hear.

    It was actually me who turned down that job. Not because of the Firewall but because of the old sysadmin. 

  • Pasa (unregistered) in reply to darin

    >That means that you may have someone interview you that believes it, and lose a job because of it.    Maybe you'll say "I wouldn't want to work there anyway",

    Exactly what I would think. Do I want to mess with their nic-guy collecting habits?

     > but what if it was just one single person that preferred the other candidate because of that, and a person you would not have had to work closely with?

    Irrelevant -- you may not work with him, but you will work with all the other people he hired. And not work with those he rejected.    Decide, who you want to work with, people who ara "smart/get the work done" or who care to spend money on clothes and/or show off?

    >Would you dismiss an entire job that you might have liked because one of the HR people thought suits were a requirement?

    No place cen be better than the people working there, and a flawed recruitment process will definitely create a WTF company.     The ill case that may happen, the real recruiter is away and let some idiot do the job. 

    >There may be people that are the opposite; who will downgrade anyone who wears a suit as being too pompous to write good code.

    I'm not very experienced in job-hunting, what I observed, young/fresh people tend to show up in suits while seasoned ones just come in "natural" form.  As a recruiter the best thing you can do is be blind, and concentrate on the really important qualities you seek.   And if the job actually has elements with dressing, and the candidate would not fit in present form, use the "ask him" magic. ;)

    >They may exist but they're much rarer.  So odds are you'll do better by overdressing than underdressing.

    If you're desperate to get the job whatever it takes, and whatever it turns out to be...  Those who are picky will hardly benefit. 

    >I'm not saying you have to have a suit and tie and all that, but just dress one notch better than you normally do. 

    Is one notch so different from 0-notch, or whatever comes at hand? 

  • MurdocJ (unregistered) in reply to biziclop
    biziclop:
    Anonymous:
    biziclop:

    Interview stories are fun.

    At least for me, as I always struggle with the non-technical part (I feel tense when I have to talk to people I've never met before, especially when I know it's some kind of test).

    As for the technical part, I once ended up screaming with the interviewer (we've had a little argument about the possibility of field declarations in a Java interface), then I grabbed a keyboard, looked up the part proving me in the JLS and finished with "I wouldn't work in this cesspool even if you payed twice the money I need" and walked out.

    Obviously I feel a bit embarrassed about it now but I think apart from the touchy-feely issues I've done the right thing.
     

    I'm glad I don't work with either you or your interviewer. 

    You may be right but I'd be curious what would your reaction have been if an interviewer laughed in your face and told you "You obviously don't know what you're talking about." when you knew you were perfectly right. (After all, this was not a question of opinions, he denied the facts written in the specification and tried to convince me I'm stupid.)

    I wouldn't end up screaming at him.  That I can guarantee.

  • MurdocJ (unregistered) in reply to miraculixx
    Anonymous:

    Also keep in mind that behaviour during interviews is a certain indication of future behaviour during work. And you sure don't want your programmers snooping around and finding solutions to problems that no one has ever told them about. Or do you, now?

    The question is whether you want them ignoring what you've told them and just doing whatever they feel like doing, no matter how inappropriate it is. 

  • Kake (unregistered) in reply to newfweiler
    newfweiler:

    Anonymous:
    My response was, "I wanted to try being a full-time mother, and learned that I suck at being a mother and I'd much rather be a programmer".

    (Interviewer thinks:  And how did you dispose of your children?  Is about to ask, but doesn't.  A long, uncomfortable silence ensues.)

     
    Or maybe the interviewer managed to remember that children generally have two parents.

  • (cs)

    Long time lurker -- first time poster, but I had to put in my two cents after reading the back and forth about dress code, level of knowledge, etc... Here's an (unfortunately altogether not uncommon) story.

    Several months ago I interview a very well dressed invidividual for a Java position.  It turns out he knows nothing about Java, but he he had worked for The Director when both were at another company, which is how he got the interview.  Both of us interviewing give him the thumbs down and he is not offered a position.

    Fast forward a couple of months and I have left the company to go back to school full time (entering medical school at 32 -- there's a WTF! :) but I still do consulting with them a couple of hours a week.  Walk in one time to see this same guy who has taken over maintenance/enhancement of one of the Java apps after the normal guy left the company.

    Moral of the story:  The way you dress: irrelevant. What you know: irrelevant. Who you know: priceless.  Thankfully this isn't the case in EVERY company, but that's the way it is in a lot of them.

     And yes -- the googles still do nothing.

    - N

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