The Angry MD

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  • Ello 2012-10-18 08:07
    Sorry, I don't get it.
    I read it twice, but really i can't get the point of the story.

    It was just a "strange" interview, nothing more, or wasn't it?
  • Tim Ward 2012-10-18 08:12
    Well, the interviewer hadn't read the CV before walking into the interview room, but so what else is new?

    It's hardly rare to be given a CV completely out of the blue and be told "you're interviewing this guy now, he's waiting for you in such-and-such a room".
  • SlainVeteran 2012-10-18 08:13
    He didn't realise there was a second side to the CV which is why he was asking about all the meaningless jobs which were presumably at the beginning of Steve's career.
  • Pricey 2012-10-18 08:14
    This is why people tell you to fit your CV onto a single side of paper...
  • Edgar 2012-10-18 08:15
    This is why you should aim to keep CV on a single page and list only the relevant experience to the job you're applying.
  • Simon Peyote Joints 2012-10-18 08:16
    What kind of person puts "inventorying network switches" on a CV for a software company?
  • Howie Feltersnatch 2012-10-18 08:16
    Badly written anecdote is badly written.
  • Rob 2012-10-18 08:16
    Soooooooooooo... the MD had never heard of double-sided printouts before that day? THAT'S the point?

    Wow.
  • Nappy 2012-10-18 08:17
    That's probably why Linked in starts with your current job, not the one summer tomato picking you did.

    No we picked them by hand.
    No we walked with a cart to the isle to manually dump them in a bigger cart.
    ...
    ...
    No i'm sure there was no computer in the sorting machine
    [turns page]
    Yes i was chief architect at [redacted company]
  • Arkady 2012-10-18 08:20
    In the UK we're told our CV should be approximately two sides - the one sided resumé is an American thing.
  • Herwig 2012-10-18 08:23
    Where's pt. 2?
  • Jack 2012-10-18 08:24
    Arkady:
    In the UK we're told our CV should be approximately two sides - the one sided resumé is an American thing.
    Are you also told to list all the old irrelevant crap in exhaustive detail on the first page and save the goodies for dessert?
  • Freddie 2012-10-18 08:25
    I'm thinking there must be more to this story but the back side of my monitor is blank...
  • Anketam 2012-10-18 08:25
    From my observations one or two pages does not matter. What does matter is that you put the most important stuff first and work your way to the least important. If the least imporant goes onto a second page that is fine. The interviewer will stop reading the resume once they lose interest.

    I was under the impression from the story that the guy put his degree information on the second page (I put my degree information on the second page since I view it as less important). And the MD had some prejudice against people without degrees, but in this case only to realize the guy actually did have a degree.
  • Cbuttius 2012-10-18 08:26
    I had problems in April 2010 when I had just had 3 WTF jobs in a row pretty much within a year, and wanted to shift the focus to the 3.5 years or so before but every interviewer seemed determined to talk about my most recent jobs.

    I failed to get any of the jobs at that time which was a very trying time for me.

    Steve handled his interview well, attributing the positive to every job. I learnt to do that. I did highlight the 3rd of the WTF jobs on the work I had done on switching the Windows build from static to using DLLs which essentially cut down the link time enormously so you didn't have to wait 30-45 minutes every time you made a 1-line change. This had an impact on improving the "performance" of every developer in the team who was otherwise wasting time waiting for changes to build.

    It may have been a tiresome task to do, and maybe not exactly what I wanted to be working on doing there, but it was 1. An idea I had come up with myself (pro-active) and 2. Had a very positive impact.

    Subsequent to changing my own personal attitude towards this job, my success rate went up enormously.

    It is very important to have a good attitude towards doing work which is good for the business but not what you particulary enjoy doing. You are there for the benefit of the business, not to seek your own interests.

    The MD would have known that and may well have been asking these questions for exactly these reasons.
  • Herwig 2012-10-18 08:26
    höhö,... that's why you have to put "inventorying network switches" on your CV's in Britain? - what a N(ice)RWTF!
  • Anthony 2012-10-18 08:27
    My CV is 3 to 4 pages (as time goes on, it grows).

    The first page contains a summary of pertinent information. The bottom of it through the third page is a detail of each related job I have had (I leave off less relevant tasks), what I did there, what my responsibilities were and what I achieved.

    Then, the final page contains "ancillary" information. Such as professional groups I belong to open source projects I participate in, certs, talks that I've done, etc. Stuff that's icing on the cake, but isn't the meat of what I'm trying to get across...
  • A Mike 2012-10-18 08:43
    It seems to me that the MD had spent the first half of the interview looking at the back-side of the resume, where Steven had rightly listed all the crap jobs he'd had in order to fill it out to the full two pages. He then flipped it over and saw all the things Steven had listed first.
  • I'm just a number 2012-10-18 08:47
    It was later that he found out that "MD" actually stood for "Manic Depressive".

    The end.
  • anonymous 2012-10-18 08:47
    Herwig:
    Where's pt. 2?

    Turn the page!
  • biziclop 2012-10-18 08:48
    The real WTF is that without the comments most people (myself included) don't get the story.
  • Captain Obvious 2012-10-18 08:58
    So the twf is that the interviewer wanted to see how he would deal with an angry person?
  • Kris 2012-10-18 09:00
    I've done the whole "list only relevant jobs" thing, only to be asked if I was in jail/psychiatric treatment/unemployed in those "missing years". Now it lists every single meaningless job, simply as employer/function/period one-liners.
  • ¯\(°_o)/¯ I DUNNO LOL 2012-10-18 09:04
    TRWTF is not knowing the difference between "led" and "lead"?

    But what we all want to know is, is it really bigger on the inside?
  • TheSHEEEP 2012-10-18 09:04
    Cbuttius:
    You are there for the benefit of the business, not to seek your own interests.


    Yes, be a good working slave and do whatever is best for your company. Oh. My. God.
    With too many people with that attitude, we will soon all get minimum wages

    What nonsense! You can pretend stuff like that, to crawl up the bosses a**es, but when I work for a company, I have a look at what I can gain of it. Do I learn something new? Can I improve my skills/knowledge in an area? Is it probably just incredible fun to work with the people? Is the payment good for the kind of work I do?

    Obviously, when doing the actual work, one should focus on doing what is objectively the best thing to do, not on what is most fun to do. But that's a matter of professionalism. If you do what you are paid for as good as you can, then that is all a company can ever expect from you. Anything more you should do out of interest/fun or with a certain (monetary?) goal in mind.

    Do not sell yourself under value, if you don't absolutely need THAT job to survive.
  • Roby McAndrew 2012-10-18 09:05
    I'm struggling to keep my CV down to two pages. The early jobs are now just Company/Job Title/Dates. The more recent a job is, the more detail it gets. Most recent comes first on Page 1. Page 2 becomes dusty history.

    I was once shown a 10-page CV. Page one proudly listed his mobile number (when mobiles were rare) and his BMW 320i. On about page 7 we discovered that he was married with two children. How we laughed!
  • TheSHEEEP 2012-10-18 09:06
    Kris:
    I've done the whole "list only relevant jobs" thing, only to be asked if I was in jail/psychiatric treatment/unemployed in those "missing years".


    "Yes, all of that in the exact order!"
  • Jasper 2012-10-18 09:20
    I'm in the Netherlands.

    Generally I think it's good to have a CV that's not too long - recruiters aren't going to wade through a 10-page long CV.

    The CV that I usually use is 3 pages; it contains my profile, a list of skills and descriptions of projects I've worked on in the past 5 years. But a while ago a recruiter commented that he thought my CV was too short.
  • Warpedcow 2012-10-18 09:29
    I've seen lots of 5-8 page resumes, pretty much always from relatives of "Nagesh" if you get my meaning. Very rarely do I encounter a proper 1 page resume, though when I do it's never from a "Nagesh".

    The 1 page resume candidates perform a few orders of magnitude better at their interview than the 5-8 page candidates.
  • Still Water 2012-10-18 09:37
    Yes - please, more people take note of this. Wading through 11 pages of CV detailing every single piece of software that you have ever seen does not make me want to interview you - if you are an expert in 15 different DBMS, 13 programming languages, and 257 different applications, then you are applying for the wrong job...

    And no pictures. Thanks.
  • David 2012-10-18 09:46
    Sounds like steve might want to put his most relevant work experience near the top of his resume so interviewers see that first instead of having to turn to the second page.
  • Andrew 2012-10-18 09:48
    The Real WTF is not putting your work history in reverse chronological order so that the most recent / most relevant stuff is at the top, where the interviewer will see it immediately.
  • Anonymous Bob 2012-10-18 09:49
    What's a "CV"? I've heard of a resume, but not a "CV". Is that a British thing?
  • golddog 2012-10-18 09:51
    TheSHEEEP:
    Cbuttius:
    You are there for the benefit of the business, not to seek your own interests.


    Yes, be a good working slave and do whatever is best for your company. Oh. My. God.
    With too many people with that attitude, we will soon all get minimum wages

    What nonsense! You can pretend stuff like that, to crawl up the bosses a**es, but when I work for a company, I have a look at what I can gain of it. Do I learn something new? Can I improve my skills/knowledge in an area? Is it probably just incredible fun to work with the people? Is the payment good for the kind of work I do?

    Obviously, when doing the actual work, one should focus on doing what is objectively the best thing to do, not on what is most fun to do. But that's a matter of professionalism. If you do what you are paid for as good as you can, then that is all a company can ever expect from you. Anything more you should do out of interest/fun or with a certain (monetary?) goal in mind.

    Do not sell yourself under value, if you don't absolutely need THAT job to survive.


    And you don't need THAT job. There's another one out there. It's not worth going to a place you hate every day.
  • Chuck 2012-10-18 10:00
    You know, if some of your past jobs have no relevance to the kind of work youre looking for, you CAN leave them off your resume. My resume mentions nothing about my first job at Wendy's, or various construction labor gigs, or even five years of delivering pizza.
  • Fool 2012-10-18 10:02
    In the US, we just call it a resume. They don't ge to 2 pages unless you have soemthing like 10+ years of experience. At that point it starts to be come more expected.

    Truth is, resumes are not that valuable. Talking to someone is.
  • Mark 2012-10-18 10:18
    Fool:
    In the US, we just call it a resume. They don't ge to 2 pages unless you have soemthing like 10+ years of experience. At that point it starts to be come more expected.

    Truth is, resumes are not that valuable. Talking to someone is.


    Exactly. Resumes have one goal: Get you in to speak with someone. Writing a resume to try and portray the unique snowflake that is "you" with each of your prized bowel movements is a complete waste of time for everyone.
  • justanotheradmin 2012-10-18 10:20
    Anonymous Bob:
    What's a "CV"? I've heard of a resume, but not a "CV". Is that a British thing?


    Curriculum Vitae. Latin.
  • Someone else 2012-10-18 10:22
    I've recently had to start looking for a job, something I haven't done in 7 years (I've been working in software development for something like 35 years). I truncated my resume at 2 pages and 3 jobs/17 years back. I could have gone on but I don't see than my experience on old iron and obsolete operating systems would apply - unless they were asking about that explicitly. At that point I'd deny any knowledge of those old POS systems.
  • blank 2012-10-18 10:29
    there's a bad VB joke in there somewhere..

    Error on resume? Next!
  • foo 2012-10-18 10:30
    justanotheradmin:
    Anonymous Bob:
    What's a "CV"? I've heard of a resume, but not a "CV". Is that a British thing?


    Curriculum Vitae. Latin.
    In contrast to resume which is French.
  • Born Texas Proud 2012-10-18 10:33
    Kris:
    I've done the whole "list only relevant jobs" thing, only to be asked if I was in jail/psychiatric treatment/unemployed in those "missing years". Now it lists every single meaningless job, simply as employer/function/period one-liners.

    From you're name, I'm guessing you're female. The interviewer was probably trying to determine whether you made your income from stripping and/or pornography...and it might not have been detrimental to you getting a job.
  • JJ Irwin 2012-10-18 10:35
    Last I was out looking I was told that for technical positions, especially in fields where consulting is the norm, they're looking for a small novel, otherwise they don't think you've got range of experience.

    I'd been working at the same place for god-knows-how-many-years so I was at a distinct disadvantage until I stumbled on a position doing exactly what I'd been doing before.
  • Bradley 2012-10-18 10:37
    I don't get it, what was on the back of the resume to make him change his attitude?
  • Nagesh 2012-10-18 10:40
    Warpedcow:
    I've seen lots of 5-8 page resumes, pretty much always from relatives of "Nagesh" if you get my meaning. Very rarely do I encounter a proper 1 page resume, though when I do it's never from a "Nagesh".

    The 1 page resume candidates perform a few orders of magnitude better at their interview than the 5-8 page candidates.

    Obviously, Nagesh is being much bettar employee having so manies short-term jobs. Employer only maintein employee that is being substanderd.
  • Publius 2012-10-18 10:54
    Hahaha, thanks Arkady for helping me make sense of this story.
  • Your Name 2012-10-18 11:02
    I was told that multipage resume's get pitched when I was in college. Of course back then I had no experience and had to stretch it to fill a page.

    I rarely ever see a resume that is less than 2 full pages when interviewing people with at least a few years of experience. I think people do not want to remove irrelevant entries since it looks like they have a huge gap in their work experience if they skip over stuff.

    However you don't need to go into exhaustive detail about a job you only worked a few months at, or did nothing related to the position you are trying to take.
  • CodeMonKey 2012-10-18 11:10
    Bradley:
    I don't get it, what was on the back of the resume to make him change his attitude?
    It wasn't blank, for sure. Lessons learned: Print the cv/resume simplex, not duplex.
  • Cbuttius 2012-10-18 11:15
    TheSHEEEP:
    Kris:
    I've done the whole "list only relevant jobs" thing, only to be asked if I was in jail/psychiatric treatment/unemployed in those "missing years".


    "Yes, all of that in the exact order!"


    Yes, I was in jail and now I have good "connections" so if I am not offered the role, you may wake up with a severed horse's head in your bed.
  • jaybird 2012-10-18 11:27
    CodeMonKey:
    Bradley:
    I don't get it, what was on the back of the resume to make him change his attitude?
    It wasn't blank, for sure. Lessons learned: Print the cv/resume simplex, not duplex.


    I would never print a resume double-sided for exactly this reason. Single sided, with a staple (or not, depending on any specific instructions provided by the employer).
  • zelmak 2012-10-18 11:30
    Bradley:
    I don't get it, what was on the back of the resume to make him change his attitude?


    The real front.
  • dolor 2012-10-18 11:39
    Born Texas Proud:
    Kris:
    I've done the whole "list only relevant jobs" thing, only to be asked if I was in jail/psychiatric treatment/unemployed in those "missing years". Now it lists every single meaningless job, simply as employer/function/period one-liners.

    From you're name, I'm guessing you're female. The interviewer was probably trying to determine whether you made your income from stripping and/or pornography...and it might not have been detrimental to you getting a job.

    Kris Kristofferson. My gut says you've never even visited Texas.
  • eVil 2012-10-18 11:57
    Which is why you list your experience in reverse chronological order, obviously.
  • Garrison Fiord 2012-10-18 12:00
    Are you fucking kidding me? I make a valid comment. Others agree with it. Yet you delete it anyway. What kind of fucking insanity motivates TDWTF editors?
  • Garrison Fiord 2012-10-18 12:02
    FYI, your article was piss-poor, so delete all of the comments that are questioning what the real WTF is. The way you wrote it left very little clue who was actually having the problem.
  • Garrison Fiord 2012-10-18 12:02
    London is a global city.
  • Garrison Fiord 2012-10-18 12:03
    Editors mudify my cumments to look like an imbecile.
  • Dave 2012-10-18 12:03
    I think 2 sides is typical length for a good resume in the US, generally if provided as hard copy they are printed single sided though... At any rate this is probably the least WTF dailywtf I've ever read.
  • Garrison Fiord 2012-10-18 12:03
    I thought you were better than this, Mike. Remy is the one I really have a problem with.
  • Garrison Fiord 2012-10-18 12:04
    Garrison Fiord:
    I thought you were better than this, Mike. Remy is the one I really have a problem with.

    With his gay unicorns and his asinine HTML comments.
  • Garrison Fiord 2012-10-18 12:05
    My guess is that the editors either don't have coding jobs or have low confidence about their own code but have no way to make it better.
  • Garrison Fiord 2012-10-18 12:06
    I would love to know why you delete my comments, but Zunesis' comments were allowed to stay. Maybe I'll pursue legal action because of some of the things that he wrote.
  • Garrison Fiord 2012-10-18 12:07
    Maybe Anonymous would like to hear the story of TDWTF censoring sane TDWTF comments.
  • Garrison Fiord 2012-10-18 12:10
    I'm all for deleting the idiotic "frist" comments, but what's your beef with comments that actually contain content.

    (Regular users are going to have to use their imagination, since my posts are routinely deleted without recourse. This time, a couple of people posted comments agreeing with me, and their responses were deleted too.)
  • Cbuttius 2012-10-18 12:13
    biziclop:
    The real WTF is that without the comments most people (myself included) don't get the story.


    How do rageface.jpg and oh-ok.jpg help you get the story?
  • Garrison Fiord 2012-10-18 12:17
    Cbuttius:
    biziclop:
    The real WTF is that without the comments most people (myself included) don't get the story.


    How do rageface.jpg and oh-ok.jpg help you get the story?

    They don't. The low quality of this article, along with most of them is quite evident.
  • Garrison Fiord 2012-10-18 12:18
    Cbuttius:
    biziclop:
    The real WTF is that without the comments most people (myself included) don't get the story.


    How do rageface.jpg and oh-ok.jpg help you get the story?

    I'm posting one-line comments because THE MAN has decided that some valid comments should not be displayed.
  • Garrison Fiord 2012-10-18 12:19
    THE MAN has decided that comments should not be displayed based on his own criteria. It does not apply to reason.
  • Garrison Fiord 2012-10-18 12:20
    So, I will post mini-comments, since my regular comments might set off certain alarms that I have no way to know of behorehand.
  • Garrison Fiord 2012-10-18 12:22
    Mark Bowytz:
    Stop spamming the forums with you're inane comments.

    Some would call it spamming. I would call it pissing on your f***ed up moderating policies.
  • Anonymouse 2012-10-18 12:22
    Am I the only one that thinks "the MD" was having a bad gas attack and silently let one rip? I kept expecting the guy to refer to a horrid stench as he left the room or something, thus explaining "the MD"'s embarrassment.
  • frits 2012-10-18 12:23
    Garrison Fiord:
    Mark Bowytz:
    Stop spamming the forums with you're inane comments.

    Some would call it spamming. I would call it pissing on your f***ed up moderating policies.

    Are you new here?
  • Mason Wheeler 2012-10-18 12:24
    foo:
    justanotheradmin:
    Anonymous Bob:
    What's a "CV"? I've heard of a resume, but not a "CV". Is that a British thing?


    Curriculum Vitae. Latin.
    In contrast to resume which is French.

    Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
  • Cbuttius 2012-10-18 12:29
    This article wasn't that good only as it isn't that WTF'y, but it does expand discussion about the purpose of the CV and the interview:

    1. Differences between UK CV culture and US resume culture as to what you do and do not include and their length.

    2. Timeline and filling in all the gaps rather than just relevant experience.

    3. Manager interviewing you on something that was on your CV but you didn't think relevant, but felt you had to include anyway to "not leave gaps" or show your diversity.

    They saw and read his relevant experience or they wouldn't have called him in for an interview in the first place.

    The guy responded well to the questions being asked and didn't get agitated and storm out or do anything WTFy whilst being interviewed, then got hired.

  • True Latin Scholar (14-year) 2012-10-18 12:31
    Mason Wheeler:
    foo:
    justanotheradmin:
    Anonymous Bob:
    What's a "CV"? I've heard of a resume, but not a "CV". Is that a British thing?


    Curriculum Vitae. Latin.
    In contrast to resume which is French.

    Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

    Your Latin reminds me of the trash they put out in the 19th century, where writers thought they were speaking Latin because inept British educators taught them that way. My guess is that you got it from Googleâ„¢ Translation anyway. ignoramus es.
  • Cbuttius 2012-10-18 12:31
    Garrison Fiord:
    Mark Bowytz:
    Stop spamming the forums with you're inane comments.

    Some would call it spamming. I would call it pissing on your f***ed up moderating policies.


    I would say when you post several comments all in a row that is rather spammy.

    Go vent in the sidebar. Although you have to register to do that.
  • From the atic 2012-10-18 12:32
    Lesson of the day : Don't put on your CV the experience you don't want to talk about.
  • Garrison Fiord 2012-10-18 12:33
    Censorship is great. TDWTF is hosted in the DPRK? Maybe I should change my handle to Kim Jong Fiord.
  • Garrison Fiord 2012-10-18 12:34
    I considered registering before I recognized the true nature of the domain owners. I'm glad I noticed before I gave out my email address. Pity I didn't realize it before giving them my SSN, though.

    Anybody know a good credit agency that'll deal with the bankrupt?
  • Cbuttius 2012-10-18 12:39
    Garrison Fiord:
    I considered registering before I recognized the true nature of the domain owners. I'm glad I noticed before I gave out my email address.


    If you don't like it here, you needn't come.
    Frankly sir, you're a pain in the bum...

    (that's English slang for ass/butt...)
  • Mark Bowytz 2012-10-18 12:39
    Garrison Fiord:
    I considered registering before I recognized the true nature of the domain owners. I'm glad I noticed before I gave out my email address.


    It's ok. We track you by your IP. ;-)
  • Doodpants 2012-10-18 12:46
    Arkady:
    In the UK we're told our CV should be approximately two sides - the one sided resumé is an American thing.

    If you follow American politics at all, you'll notice that a lot of communication in America is one-sided.
  • Zylon 2012-10-18 12:56
    Fool:
    In the US, we just call it a resume.

    No, we don't. Resumes and CVs are different, and both are used.
  • PedanticCurmudgeon 2012-10-18 13:04
    Garrison Fiord:
    Anybody know a good credit agency that'll deal with the intellectually bankrupt?
    FTFY
  • snoofle 2012-10-18 13:24
    Interesting discussion.

    I've had one agent tell me to drop off the jobs > 15 years old. The next one tells me to include it; otherwise it'll look like I was unemployed for 15 years after college. Before my current job, I had one manager interview me, and he spent 20 minutes on my first job (nearly 30 years ago) out of school. Finally, I had to tell him that I simply didn't remember the details as the technology is so far out of date that I've completely forgotten it - in order to get him to move on. Although it was offered, I decided to pass on the job because of this manager's obsession with ancient history at the detriment of the present.

    I used to write a very carefully worded and laid out resume. These days, you need to make sure it's formatted for resume scanners. This forces me to keep two versions; one to submit by email, and one to hand someone at an interview. I find it (sometimes) helps.

    One thing I will never do is to customize my resume to put a certain skill in every job to make it look like I'm an expert's expert in technology X because a) it's lying - and I can't lie effectively so I just don't, and b) sometimes you run into a manager who knew the other manager and had a discussion about this "expert" who didn't take the job. You'd be surprised at what people remember.
  • snoofle 2012-10-18 13:24
    Zylon:
    Fool:
    In the US, we just call it a resume.

    No, we don't. Resumes and CVs are different, and both are used.

    I always thought they were the same thing.

    What's the difference?
  • chubertdev 2012-10-18 13:28
    TRWTF: no "Mad Doctor" joke yet
  • Zylon 2012-10-18 13:53
    snoofle:
    Zylon:
    Fool:
    In the US, we just call it a resume.

    No, we don't. Resumes and CVs are different, and both are used.

    I always thought they were the same thing.

    What's the difference?
    http://tinyurl.com/9f69v5a

    And fuck Akismet.
  • Sam I am 2012-10-18 14:06
    I must say that that is the most boring article I've ever read on this website.
  • Arvind 2012-10-18 14:06
    Write job experience in reverse chronological order, duh!
  • Shinobu 2012-10-18 14:40
    You missed the point by several milia passuum. Also, grow a sense of humour.
  • User 2012-10-18 14:42
    Pricey:
    This is why people tell you to fit your CV onto a single side of paper...

    Resume? Sure. But CV? My impression was always that the CV was intended to be a thorough accounting and, by it's very nature, probably long.

    CodeMonKey:
    Bradley:
    I don't get it, what was on the back of the resume to make him change his attitude?
    It wasn't blank, for sure. Lessons learned: Print the cv/resume simplex, not duplex.

    Steven may not have been the one to print it. Though I guess your advice applies to anyone who may be printing one. :-)
  • Garrison Fiord 2012-10-18 15:57
    Mark Bowytz:
    Garrison Fiord:
    I considered registering before I recognized the true nature of the domain owners. I'm glad I noticed before I gave out my email address.


    It's ok. We track you by your IP. ;-)

    Assholes like your ilk is why Tor was invented.
  • True Latin Scholar 2012-10-18 16:01
    Shinobu:
    You missed the point by several milia passuum. Also, grow a sense of humour.

    I see nothing funny about Latin hacks trying to sound intelligent. Consider me a "Grammer" Nazi of Latin, I suppose. What's with the British spelling and the Japanese handle?
  • True Latin Scholar 2012-10-18 16:04
    PedanticCurmudgeon:
    Garrison Fiord:
    Anybody know a good credit agency that'll deal with the intellectually bankrupt?
    FTFY

    I don't know why Mark even bothered to modify my post with such unoriginal content. Oh, wait. It's Mark. I used to think that was beneath anyone except Remy. Now Alex is the only one who has yet to disappoint me.
  • WarKosign 2012-10-18 16:35
    snoofle:
    Interesting discussion.

    One thing I will never do is to customize my resume to put a certain skill in every job to make it look like I'm an expert's expert in technology X because a) it's lying - and I can't lie effectively so I just don't, and b) sometimes you run into a manager who knew the other manager and had a discussion about this "expert" who didn't take the job. You'd be surprised at what people remember.


    You don't need to make yourself an expert, but if I know where this CV goes and what are the job requirements - I will make sure to highlight whenever possible how the position provided me with the experience needed for the position.
    It's all perfectly true, just a matter of changing the perspective a little.

    If I don't know where the CV is going, I try to be objective, with maybe a little bit more emphasis on things I'd like to do again.
  • Mighty Captain Kurt 2012-10-18 16:47
    I just want to stress on something which is usually not clear. Most of the time the interview is not focused (or better not only) on WHAT you know. It is important to understand HOW you think and react.

    That's why two friends of mine, interviewed for the very same job, had to reply to the following questions. The first one, which was married, was told having a family could be a problem since the job was requiring a lot of flexibility. The other, single, was told something like "not having a family could mean you are not mature enough for this kind of work".

    In both cases the questions were out of topic, to say the least, but there was no "right" answer. It is the way you reply which matters. You can reply "that's not related to this job" in a polite way. Or you can stand up and shout "what kind of question is this???".

    Another example: during an interview I was asked to explain why an x-y chart was "like this". I asked questions on the context/constraints/data/... and made hypothesis after hypothesis. The interviewer was saying I was wrong. And was getting bored, than almost angry. At the end he said, "let's stop, you are not going to get the right answer to this question."
    I was a little sad while he asked me to exit and wait outside.
    After 5 minutes the interviewer opened the door and said... I did a great job! He was smiling and I knew I had passed the test.

    However, I did not accept the job. He did not pass MY interview... and I got a better job elsewhere. ;-)

    Ps) forgive my English
  • herby 2012-10-18 16:49
    Today's second lesson:

    Put Page 1 at the top of the first page.
    Put Page 2 at the top of the second page.

    Good ideas:
    Put your name at the top of Every page.
    Print your resume one sided, NOT duplex.
    Always have a copy of your resume available to the interviewer(s) (as well as an extra for yourself).

    For homework: Change the name of your resume file to include your own name, so when you submit it to a company online, via your browser, it won't show up as 'fake work history.doc' or some such.
  • Peach Tree 2012-10-18 16:50
    I am confused....I've never seen a two-sided resume. Multiple pages, sure, but not two sided - maybe we have more tress in Australia to waste.

    Also, as someone else has mentioned, shouldn't a resume normally be reverse chronological?

    Current Job, previous job, one before that...., education.
  • ben 2012-10-18 16:52
    What's a "CV"? I've heard of a resume, but not a "CV"


    You're using the Internet right now but you're incapable of finding out? How do you get through your day without injuring yourself?
  • Mergatrois 2012-10-18 17:10
    Anthony:
    My CV is 3 to 4 pages (as time goes on, it grows).

    The first page contains a summary of pertinent information. The bottom of it through the third page is a detail of each related job I have had (I leave off less relevant tasks), what I did there, what my responsibilities were and what I achieved.

    Then, the final page contains "ancillary" information. Such as professional groups I belong to open source projects I participate in, certs, talks that I've done, etc. Stuff that's icing on the cake, but isn't the meat of what I'm trying to get across...
    I have several resume's all used for different purposes...

    for a "Technical" position that lists multiple technologies, I tend to ramble about everything I've ever touched.
    for C# positions, I drop out some of the stuff that's not OO (and reduce Java stuff in case the interviewer is a C# FANBOI)
    for (non technical) senior positions I focus on how great a person I am, and how much money I am able to waste achieving nothing (in fact, I have noticed in government roles {not so much Private Enterprise, I'll admit} people perceive the best manager to be the one that spends the most money and gets the least done - I think they assume either they're having a hard time with staff {hence the $$$} or that they're working on something big that hasn't been delivered yet)

    I have once or twice reduced my resume to 1 page, but generally it is between 2 and 5 depending on the job.

    TBH, I'm always amazed at what the difference in opinions on what a good resume' is between 'experts' - I've had people tell me my shorter ones don't elaborate on skills enough, and othrs tell me that the longer ones are tedious. These days I tend to use a resume' as a summary, and add something like "More detailed description of roles and achievements available on request" - then you put some nice tantalising points on the resume' and wait for them to say "This sounds interesting, what else did you do there?" - but I always make the point there is more information availble lest they think the detail is a little thin.

    On a almost unrelated note (now that I'm raving on), when I was at Uni, I was forced to do a Semester on "Communication Skills" (apparently there's a perception that people in Math, Science and Engineering disciplines have limited ability to do anything that involves people). As part of this course, we had to prepare a resume, and were then told (by HR 'experts' running the course)that it's totally wrong and it should be presented another way. For 2 years I persisted with their resume design with no luck, and the moment I reverted to roughly what I had been using before that I started to get calls....

    One of the problems with following rules about how resume's should be, is that the people who come up with the rules, are often the ones hiring - and they realise that once they've announced "This is the best way to prepare a resume'" they then become immune to that approach, because even the muppets are using it...

    Even further off track:
    I've considered preparing a resume in programming language-like syntax - although many would ignore it, I reckon it might stand out enough for people to at least say "Might be worth seeing what this blokes like"):

    Job motorola = new JuniorDeveloper();
    motorola.addTechnology(language.C);
    motorola.addTechnology(language.unixShellScript);
    motorla.addTask("Document Preparation");
    motorola.addEnvironments({ OS.Windows, OS.Linux, OS.Solaris});
    for(year = 1986; year<1989; year++)
    {
    motorola.administerSystem(OS.Linux);
    motorola.writeCode(language.C);
    }

    If you got really carried away you could write something that compiles - and displays your resume....
  • Simon 2012-10-18 17:12
    Kris:
    I've done the whole "list only relevant jobs" thing, only to be asked if I was in jail/psychiatric treatment/unemployed in those "missing years". Now it lists every single meaningless job, simply as employer/function/period one-liners.
    When they ask you tell them "I was working at <company> doing unrelated tasks <whatever>".

    They're not accusing you of being in jail or unemployed, their simply verifying that you were doing someting in that time
  • shadowman 2012-10-18 17:20
    What's really odd is why the MD was so angry about his perceived lack of experience or education. A perfectly appropriate reaction might be to think "hmm, I think we want someone a little more senior for this position" and to thank the guy and send him on his way.

    But to start pulling your hair out and angrily yell at the guy for not being qualified enough? WTF!?


    Andrew:
    The Real WTF is not putting your work history in reverse chronological order so that the most recent / most relevant stuff is at the top, where the interviewer will see it immediately.


    It's not really clear but I was assuming the MD was mislead because he was looking at the wrong side first.

    Either that the 'merkin was confused because they put CVs in the opposite order in the UK, similar to how they drive on the left!
  • shadowman 2012-10-18 17:24
    Simon:
    Kris:
    I've done the whole "list only relevant jobs" thing, only to be asked if I was in jail/psychiatric treatment/unemployed in those "missing years". Now it lists every single meaningless job, simply as employer/function/period one-liners.
    When they ask you tell them "I was working at <company> doing unrelated tasks <whatever>".

    They're not accusing you of being in jail or unemployed, their simply verifying that you were doing someting in that time


    I still haven't figured out why so many places think that's important. "hmmm, lets not hire this guy, he was unemployed for 9 months back in 2004. Who knows what he's capable of!?"
  • Zylon 2012-10-18 17:28
    Garrison Fiord:
    Assholes like your ilk is why Tor was invented.

    Sociopathic trolling idiots like you are why moderators were invented.
  • shadowman 2012-10-18 17:30
    Garrison Fiord:
    Maybe Anonymous would like to hear the story of TDWTF censoring sane TDWTF comments.


    OMG, this has to be one of the lamest veiled threats I've ever come across. Reminds me of a loudmouth drunk who gets kicked out of a bar and then wont stop screaming about how he's friends with some mafioso who are going to come back and bust the place up.
  • Jiminy 2012-10-18 17:45
    TheSHEEEP:
    Cbuttius:
    You are there for the benefit of the business, not to seek your own interests.


    Yes, be a good working slave and do whatever is best for your company. Oh. My. God.
    With too many people with that attitude, we will soon all get minimum wages

    What nonsense! You can pretend stuff like that, to crawl up the bosses a**es, but when I work for a company, I have a look at what I can gain of it. Do I learn something new? Can I improve my skills/knowledge in an area? Is it probably just incredible fun to work with the people? Is the payment good for the kind of work I do?

    Obviously, when doing the actual work, one should focus on doing what is objectively the best thing to do, not on what is most fun to do. But that's a matter of professionalism. If you do what you are paid for as good as you can, then that is all a company can ever expect from you. Anything more you should do out of interest/fun or with a certain (monetary?) goal in mind.

    Do not sell yourself under value, if you don't absolutely need THAT job to survive.
    I think neither works at the extreme.

    Employment is a two way arrangement. Both parties should be able to get something out of it (for the employee it might be as simple as money, but it might also be satisfaction, up-skilling etc). It seems in the modern world we have this big idea that we are all entitled to have a job, and we forget the reason the job exists is because our employer has some sort of objective that we are helping with. We help them by doing the work, and they help us by training and paying us.
    Current Equal Opportunities attitudes (at least in my neck of the wood) are detrimental to the work environment, because they focus on demographic balance rather than demographic independence (and demographic balance is only possible if we assume that everyone is equal to the job, which is simply not the case).
    Equal Opportunities should mean that nothing except qualification is important, but for some reason instead we seem to say "Hmm...the general population is 1% Tunisian, and we don't have any Tunisians in our 100-strong workforce, so lets go find one"....

    Ok, I've drifted a little off topic, but the point is that a job exists because an employer has a specific need. When you are hired to do a job, it is primarily for the benefit (or perceived benefit) that you will be to an organisation. If you get something out of it (other than pay) too, that's great, but the priority always has to be to get the job done for the employer. If this means boredom and tedium, then perhaps it's time to look elsewhere where you enjoy the work that's required.

    NB: THat's not to say that employers shouldn't look after their staff - after all, they want them to stay if they're any good. However the employee shouldn't take the job for granted (and the employer shouldn't take the resource for granted). When you find the right balance between employees enjoying themselves (this might be by hiring the right people as opposed to buying them pizza every day) and the epmployer's work getting done, you have a harmonious and productive workplace.

    There's a series of books (I think the first is called FISH) that looks how enjoying work makes you more productive. An interesting read.
  • Ollie Ollie Oi Oi 2012-10-18 17:54
    Nagesh:
    Warpedcow:
    I've seen lots of 5-8 page resumes, pretty much always from relatives of "Nagesh" if you get my meaning. Very rarely do I encounter a proper 1 page resume, though when I do it's never from a "Nagesh".

    The 1 page resume candidates perform a few orders of magnitude better at their interview than the 5-8 page candidates.

    Obviously, Nagesh is being much bettar employee having so manies short-term jobs. Employer only maintein employee that is being substanderd.
    I seem to recall an article in Alex's soapbox that talked about that - and I tend to agree (to a degree).

    There are people that can adapt to any technology, but they get bored quickly and move on.
    There's others who may not seem quite as capable, and may even look ordinary in contrast, but they often end up staying forever, learning domain-specific knowledge and becoming experts in the application (as opposed to the technology).

    That said, I'll disagree on calling either sub-standard - both types of workers are very important - you want the long-term person who knows a reset fixes this problem (even if they don't understand the problem) as much as you want the analyst who loves wading through code to track down the source of an issue - even if he won't be there in 12 months...
  • haur 2012-10-18 18:05
    herby:
    Today's second lesson:

    Put Page 1 at the top of the first page.
    Put Page 2 at the top of the second page.

    Good ideas:
    Put your name at the top of Every page.
    Print your resume one sided, NOT duplex.
    Always have a copy of your resume available to the interviewer(s) (as well as an extra for yourself).

    For homework: Change the name of your resume file to include your own name, so when you submit it to a company online, via your browser, it won't show up as 'fake work history.doc' or some such.
    I used to agree with changing the name, however I'm pretty sure most online systems now save the file using their own filename anyway.

    It took them a long time to work out why they had 100s of applicants, but only one resume.doc (which appeared to be from the most recent applicant)
  • Dan Wiebe 2012-10-18 18:06
    These days I'm networked well enough in the industry in my locale that I never have to work particularly hard on a resume: by the time people are seriously looking at me, it's just a formality that nobody really reads.

    When I'm interviewing people for positions, I also pay comparatively little attention to the resume; but that might be because what I'm looking for are pretty rare skills that I can recognize and evaluate much more readily in a pairing interview than I can on paper.

    Of course, I only get interviewees after they've passed successfully through HR, and I don't really know what that takes.
  • Andy 2012-10-18 18:07
    Jack:
    Are you also told to list all the old irrelevant crap in exhaustive detail on the first page and save the goodies for dessert?

    We say pudding in the UK.
  • Simon 2012-10-18 18:09
    shadowman:
    Simon:
    Kris:
    I've done the whole "list only relevant jobs" thing, only to be asked if I was in jail/psychiatric treatment/unemployed in those "missing years". Now it lists every single meaningless job, simply as employer/function/period one-liners.
    When they ask you tell them "I was working at <company> doing unrelated tasks <whatever>".

    They're not accusing you of being in jail or unemployed, their simply verifying that you were doing someting in that time


    I still haven't figured out why so many places think that's important. "hmmm, lets not hire this guy, he was unemployed for 9 months back in 2004. Who knows what he's capable of!?"
    That's true, but usually there is SOMETHING you can do (even if it's not in your field), or a reason why there isn't - and this might reflect your work ethic.

    For example, when I finished my degree, there was very little IT work in my hometown (still is very little work), so I worked in a range of roles including in a dip factory, driving buses, delviering pieces, driving trucks etc while I looked for work.
    It's not about doing relevant work, it's about being prepared to work - and if you are genuinely unemployed for a prolonged period, the interviewer probably wants to hear that you were trying to get work, or were on holidays etc (it's also a subtle way to find out if you've been in gaol, I suppose).
  • Andy 2012-10-18 18:12
    Anthony:
    My CV is 3 to 4 pages (as time goes on, it grows).

    My wife is Australian and her CV is a whopping 18 pages and she reckons that's normal. It's not even formatted well because "that's not her job".

    She has no problem getting work.
  • Chris 2012-10-18 18:12
    Anthony:
    My CV is 3 to 4 pages (as time goes on, it grows).


    I find long resumes to be indicative of someone who doesn't know what optimization means. In a programmer, this is a bad trait.
  • havokk 2012-10-18 18:43
    Something to add to the "CV vs resume" discussion: I have always been taught that my CV doesn't change much but my resume is modified for every different job I apply for. My resume is work and education information relevant to this job application; my CV is all my work and education information. My resume should fit on one page.

    As a side note, depending on the impression you want to give, you might spell it résumé.
  • Kazan 2012-10-18 18:55
    FYI: Tor doesn't protect your privacy, you can still be back traced.
  • Helix 2012-10-18 19:22
    in the UK MD = managing director (usually the owner of a Limited (Ltd) Company). Not doctor of medicine
  • beginner_ 2012-10-19 00:48
    Arkady:
    In the UK we're told our CV should be approximately two sides - the one sided resumé is an American thing.


    I think mien is 2 sides to. Not UK but europe too. However it is usually said to only list the latest Jobs starting with the one you had last(or still have ;) ) at the top. That one is usually also the most relevant one.
  • George 2012-10-19 01:59
    My CV is typically longer than one page.

    My approach is to have :

    1. A title page
    2. A customised cover letter explaining how my skills will add value to the particular company and position I am applying for (Always do your research about a company and position before applying.)
    3. Summary of personal detail and academic experience.
    4. Skills matrix
    5-6. Work experience and references.

    I seem to do ok.
  • EncoreSpod 2012-10-19 02:39
    As I accumulated more skills and experience my CV started to expand, you rarely get feedback on this sort of thing but on three occasions I did and needless to say, they did not concur.

    At first it was a HR person at place I had applied to, I didn't even get an interview but they were kind enough to tell me that I should slim down my CV because "Nobody can be bothered reading all that."

    Later I was applying for a job internally at a large organisation so I knew the person I was applying to, he looked at my CV and told me that at two pages it didn't tell him anything and that listing my old jobs is irrelevant because he doesn't want to know what I was doing ten years ago, who wants to know who he is hiring now.

    The third doesn't really count as it was an agency and we all know what they are like, they are just trying to fill holes and they have no problem changing your own CV to fit the job they want to fill. Anyway, the advice there was the opposite again and pretty much like the first, keep it short because I can't be arsed doing my job and would rather just skip over it.

    So nowadays I have two CV's and I've changed the way both are structured.

    The short version just covers a list of key skills, employment history and qualifications.

    The long version goes into detail about what I have achieved and how.

    In both cases the key skills come first to get the message straight over and the employment history and qualifications are listed newest to oldest.

    Now when I put in for jobs I send both, of course the HR drones only skip over the short one but they always at least have the long version there if anything catches their eye.

    Smaller employers however like the longer one, they want to know who they are hiring because in a small team one person makes up a larger fraction of the workforce, they want the right person.

    People say things like 'Make it eye catching!' but that is bull too, I could format the whole thing in multicoloured Comic Sans but would you hire someone who's CV looks like it was written my a nine year old girl? Of course not, you need it to look professional and neat but you need it to catch the eye... impossible without knowing who's eye it is you want to catch as everyone will appreciate a different style.

    In short there is no right way to write a CV, you can't boil down your entire professional life, knowledge, skills and experience to one page and everyone knows it.

    P.S. When I started this job, I got to choose my own job title. You might be more interested in negotiating for benefits and pay but given the imperfect nature of the CV, the job title is just as valuable.

    Think about it, even a relative low down the IT chain job can be glamorised and I don't just mean the kind of fancying up management do to make dull jobs more interesting. (You know, like renaming the cleaner a hygiene technician.)

    Instead of being "Computer repair guy" you could be "Digital systems maintenance specialist".

    You'll find its easier in smaller organisations because they don't have so many internal systems to be adhered to, in larger places the job title is decided before it is advertised. To a smaller company though, what do they care, your official job title could be "Lord and master of the universe." but you'll still end doing the same job for the same pay under the same chain of command.

    If you do have jobs on your CV with unimpressive titles it isn't too late to jazz them up a bit. Don't lie, but re-describe the same job in different, more impressive words.
  • Norman Diamond 2012-10-19 02:48
    It's like Shiite vs. Protestant. Or is it Catholic vs. Sunni, I always keep forgetting which is which. Long CV for Visual Studio and short resume for vi, which you can keep straight because vi isn't really short for Visual Studio but it looks that way. Now where did I leave those middle endians?
  • Cbuttius 2012-10-19 03:06
    Simon:

    When they ask you tell them "I was working at <company> doing unrelated tasks <whatever>".

    They're not accusing you of being in jail or unemployed, their simply verifying that you were doing someting in that time


    I can understand they may be concerned if you were in jail, at least if you were actually guilty anyway. Innocent people have been known to spend time in jail too, either on remand and then got acquitted, or a miscarriage of justice and winning on appeal.

    And even if they were guilty, they've done their time, and now should be allowed to work in an honest job or they'll just end up in a life of professional crime.

    I can't see the concerns of being unemployed or what business it is of theirs anyway. When I go and get my car fixed, do I ask for a full life history of the mechanic just in case they spent 6 months of their life out of work?
    As long as they are qualified, are honest, have sufficient experience and won't make a balls-up of my car, why should I care?
  • raf 2012-10-19 03:18
    foo:

    justanotheradmin:

    Anonymous Bob:

    What's a "CV"? I've heard of a resume, but not a "CV". Is that a British thing?

    Curriculum Vitae. Latin.

    In contrast to resume which is French.


    Résumé is indeed a French word, but it only means summary/abstract in French. We use "CV" exlusively for the professional thing.
  • David 2012-10-19 04:05
    True Latin Scholar:
    I see nothing funny about Latin hacks trying to sound intelligent.


    So when other people use latin they are only "trying to sound intelligent" (the implication being that they are not)?

    But when *you* use latin, you are doing it out of love, and to correct the mess that lesser scalpels made?

    True Latin Scholar:
    Consider me a "Grammer" Nazi of Latin, I suppose.


    Oh, youre with *them*.

    Carry on.
  • Herr Otto Flick 2012-10-19 04:48
    Anketam:
    From my observations one or two pages does not matter. What does matter is that you put the most important stuff first and work your way to the least important. If the least imporant goes onto a second page that is fine. The interviewer will stop reading the resume once they lose interest.


    Forget 'first page', anything important should be in the first half of the first page. So many people fill that part with shit, like 'DOB' or 'Marital status' - no-one gives a fuck about that stuff until they've already decided they might want to hire you.
  • peter 2012-10-19 04:59
    So... what we've learnt from this is:

    1. List your job history in reverse chronological order (duh).

    2. Some like 1 page resumes, containing only job history information relevant to the position you're applying for, others like (or recommend) more exhaustive CV's. And there's no telling what the preference of the person handling your application is.

    Having worked in quite a few different job roles for thirty-odd years now, my CV is bound to not fit on one or two pages. I've always chosen to err on the safe side of caution, and be comprehensive rather than concise. I have been told that the fact that I actually have experience with weird, obsolete ((and downright WTF) programming languages (which wasn't relevant to the C# job I was applying for) helped me landing the job I have now (which is so effin't good that I want to keep it until I retire), because it showed that I was intellectually flexible enough to get things to work. On top of that, I've never had trouble landing jobs (although between 2008 and 2009, I have had trouble picking the right one, but that was fixed two years ago).

    Captcha: saepius. Sounds like something our resident Latin gramma nazi could be let loose on. Have fun with it.
  • peter 2012-10-19 05:19
    Herr Otto Flick:
    Anketam:
    From my observations one or two pages does not matter. What does matter is that you put the most important stuff first and work your way to the least important. If the least imporant goes onto a second page that is fine. The interviewer will stop reading the resume once they lose interest.


    Forget 'first page', anything important should be in the first half of the first page. So many people fill that part with shit, like 'DOB' or 'Marital status' - no-one gives a fuck about that stuff until they've already decided they might want to hire you.


    Anything that you want to get across to draw attention (and to motivate someone to actually read your resume/CV should not be in the resume/CV, but in the letter accompanying it (which should be less than one page before printing).

    When I'm interested enough to actually look at the resume, I know how to read diagonally... scanning the page until my eye gets stuck to a section that I'm interested in. On top of that, reading a 5 page CV really doesn't take more than a few minutes, and when deciding on inviting someone for an interview, this usually pays off.

  • Katie 2012-10-19 05:56
    I tend to bullet anything older than ten years. It shows that I didn't have a break in employment, and sometimes it starts an interesting conversation. "Oh, you worked in a Pysch lab? Tell me about that!"

    I also leave 'expert' out on my resume, because dear god, the crap work we give our experts! "You're an expert in X? Have a go at this product that's a Frankenstein's monster of lazy coding and frantic last minute changes. Ta!"
  • a (Swiss-)French guy 2012-10-19 05:56
    "résumé" is French.

    "resume" is the English translation with an US keyboard

    captcha: "abbas" almost a French word ("abats")
  • Bart Fargo 2012-10-19 06:20
    "Fascinating.

    Spock?
    Verrrry interesting."

    Or Artie Johnson? No wonder he acted so odd: he's got a multiple personality disorder!
  • Severity One 2012-10-19 06:49
    Mighty Captain Kurt:
    I just want to stress on something which is usually not clear. Most of the time the interview is not focused (or better not only) on WHAT you know. It is important to understand HOW you think and react.
    In the late nineties, I was employed at a firm doing contact work (so the company raked in the cash, but I had the advantages of a regular job, and the pay was quite good anyway).

    So one day, the sales guy and I went for an interview, for some project involving SMS messages and Perl. A few minutes into the interview, they explained what they wanted, and would I be so kind to design the system on the whiteboard, there and then?

    And I did. Looking back, I think the interview was actually the most enjoyable part of the job, especially since I was forced to use a completely brain-dead coding style guide written by someone who'd be better off in a room with stuffed walls and heavy medication.
  • Andreas 2012-10-19 07:42
    Lesson of the day: Don't put your important experience on the second page, and don't put the second page on the back of the first page. The founder never saw the back in the first place, lucky for you he discovered it during the interview.

    Best practice: drop the school computer lab stuff and put only the important parts of the CV on one page.
  • slow day 2012-10-19 08:37
    Garrison Fiord:
    London is a global city.

    I'd say it was more splat-shaped myself.
  • Jodrell 2012-10-19 08:39
    And put the most relevant information at the start of he CV.
  • Anonymous Will 2012-10-19 11:17
    foo:
    justanotheradmin:
    Anonymous Bob:
    What's a "CV"? I've heard of a resume, but not a "CV". Is that a British thing?


    Curriculum Vitae. Latin.
    In contrast to resume which is French.


    The joke is that French people use CV. We use "résumé" for a summary.
  • Angry Linguist 2012-10-19 11:43
    In the same way that Brits pronounce French words as is they and not French. Like a fillet of fish. In the USA, it's pronounced "fillay", but in Britain it's "fillit".
  • PedanticCurmudgeon 2012-10-19 14:20
    True Latin Scholar:

    I don't know why Mark even bothered to modify my post with such unoriginal content. Oh, wait. It's Mark. I used to think that was beneath anyone except Remy. Now Alex is the only one who has yet to disappoint me.
    I'm sure that will be remedied soon enough.
  • Spits Coffee Through His Nose 2012-10-19 14:46
    Best. Comment. Evar.
  • Dev 2012-10-19 15:36
    Cool story, bro. Where's the punchline?
  • User 2012-10-19 17:57
    Chris:
    Anthony:
    My CV is 3 to 4 pages (as time goes on, it grows).


    I find long resumes to be indicative of someone who doesn't know what optimization means. In a programmer, this is a bad trait.

    Is inattention to details like whether someone says "CV" or "resume" a good trait?

    Anonymous Will:
    The joke is that French people use CV. We use "résumé" for a summary.

    I would speculate that is the etymological origins of CV vs resume, at least in US use: the resume is a summary of your CV.
  • John 2012-10-19 21:15
    Arkady:
    In the UK we're told our CV should be approximately two sides - the one sided resumé is an American thing.


    Different attention spans?
  • Bebert 2012-10-20 07:24
    But "résumé" in French is a "summary" and has nothing to do with a career history, that we call a "CV", too.
  • Yozaro 2012-10-20 16:44
    In Finland we usually send a small introduction letter (or email) that tells the most relevant information about you. Then, if you get into an interview, you can show your CV, which should contain more details. Or preferably the CV should be attached into the email.

    The CV doesn't need to be only 1 page, but of course there's a limit. I have heard many people say that 2-3 pages is fine.
  • Zemm 2012-10-21 08:38
    Jack:
    Arkady:
    In the UK we're told our CV should be approximately two sides - the one sided resumé is an American thing.
    Are you also told to list all the old irrelevant crap in exhaustive detail on the first page and save the goodies for dessert?


    I struggled to get mine down to three pages, but then I was told I could go to four or five without much trouble! The first page or two should summarise everything with following pages going into more detail.

    But then it should be in reverse chronological order, the most relevant details first, etc. I now have enough experience to demote my educational qualifications until after my employment history (apparently).
  • Mat 2012-10-21 10:12
    "Resumé", in French, means "summary". We use the Latin term.
  • pixeled 2012-10-21 20:14
    better yet.. reverse chronological..
  • Shiwa 2012-10-22 05:02
    Although in France we use "CV" (or sometimes "curriculum") instead of "résumé" (which means "summary").
    Yet another word that stabs you in the back when you cross the Channel.
  • Its needs saying 2012-10-22 07:44
    And they are agents precisely because they cant do the job and really know very little about it, getting it and not wasting everyones time.
  • Alternative view 2012-10-22 08:33
    I'm in the UK and I tell you to make you CV one-sided (like mine).
  • Mizchief 2012-10-22 10:52
    Yea, we have lots of trees. Didn't cut them all down in the middle ages like the brits.
  • jay 2012-10-22 13:48
    TheSHEEEP:
    Cbuttius:
    You are there for the benefit of the business, not to seek your own interests.


    Yes, be a good working slave and do whatever is best for your company. Oh. My. God.
    With too many people with that attitude, we will soon all get minimum wages

    What nonsense! You can pretend stuff like that, to crawl up the bosses a**es, but when I work for a company, I have a look at what I can gain of it. ...


    Yes, yes, I take a job for what I can get out of it -- pay, learning opportunities, entertainment, whatever.

    But I expect it to be a two-way street: I don't expect them to give me something for nothing. And in a job interview, I don't emphasize what I want them to do for me. I tell them what I can do for them.

    This is marketing 101. When you're advertising a product, you don't say, "But Frambar Widgets! We need the money! The owner of the company has two kids in college, and our sales manager just bought a new house and is having trouble making the payments." Etc. The customer doesn't care. You say what the product will do for the customer.

    Likewise, on a job interview, you start out telling the employer what you can do for them. Sure, at some point you make sure that they'll pay you the salary you want, etc. But you don't start off with that and you don't emphasize that. Selling the company to you is THEIR job; your job is selling yourself to the company.

    If you owned a business, would you want to hire someone who comes in talking about what he wants to get with no mention of what he's willing to give?
  • J 2012-10-23 04:47
    In France the correct word is CV, too. Americans can't stop using french words upside down.
  • Peter 2012-10-23 06:18
    Haven't written a VC in a while, but I always used to put the jobs in reverse date order, so that that it was in order of relevance. People really shouldn't care too much about my O levels now I'm over 40....
  • Peter 2012-10-23 06:19
    or a CV, for that matter.... doh!
  • Claxon 2012-10-24 04:51
    Mizchief:
    Yea, we have lots of trees. Didn't cut them all down in the middle ages like the brits.


    Huh? You're replying to the following comment:

    "In the UK we're told our CV should be approximately two sides - the one sided resumé is an American thing."

    So I'm guessing you're American? In which case that doesn't make much sense, since you're implying an abundance of trees is the reason you use less paper?

    If you're not American, that still doesn't make sense, because you're agreeing with something unrelated to you...
  • Baffled 2012-10-26 07:12
    And the WTF here is ... what?

    Weird interviewer, yes, but so what?
  • Xavier 2012-10-26 09:20
    ... event if in French, "résumé" means something totally different, as we only use "CV".
  • Ol' Bob 2012-10-26 12:59
    foo:
    justanotheradmin:
    Anonymous Bob:
    What's a "CV"? I've heard of a resume, but not a "CV". Is that a British thing?


    Curriculum Vitae. Latin.
    In contrast to resume which is French.


    Down here in the swampland we refer to it as the "What the hail's you bin doin', y'durn fool?" document. Don' need no fancy Frenchified Latinized bull flop, no we don't!

    CAPTCHA: tristique - Don't git yer boxers in a tristique!
  • Ol' Bob 2012-10-26 13:19
    TheSHEEEP:
    Kris:
    I've done the whole "list only relevant jobs" thing, only to be asked if I was in jail/psychiatric treatment/unemployed in those "missing years".


    "Yes, all of that in the exact order!"


    Having the interviewer ask about jail, psychiatric treatment, etc, would signify that it was time for the interview to shift from "work" to "fun" mode - as in, "OK, your question makes me realize I'm not going to work for you irregardless of the amount of money I'm offered because you're obviously useless sacks who I have no interest in associating with. Now *I* get to have some fun!". A penetrating, longer-than-is-comfortable-by-a-factor-of-three stare, followed by something like "And...which of those might prove to be a problem? Before you answer, let me assure you that I have been found to be completely rehabilitated, I'm current on all of my meds, I have both my therapist and my parole officer on speed dial, and that I am cleared to use all modern forms of cutlery. Speaking of cutlery, does this company object to my sharpening knives, axes, swords, cutlasses, pikes, bills, and/or halberds at my desk? I find that a knowledge of edged weapons is often quite useful, don't you? Oh, dear, the nice HR lady seems to be getting 'edgy'. A-ha. A-ha. I'm quite the funny person. Many people have commented on that - briefly. One might even say 'im-PART-ially'. A-ha. A-ha. A-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!! PART-y on!!!!!! A-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!!!! I'm completely, totally, marvellously sane! I even have a paper to prove it! Look - see? It says 'Certificate of Sanity'! Not many people have one of those! A-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

    Really - the crazed laughter gets 'em every time. :-)

    CAPTCHA - augue - Can't make it in today - I've got the augue
  • Rachel 2012-10-27 19:12
    Usually the Daily WTF is a mixture of thought-provoking, funny observational humour that you can either nod along with because you recognise it from personal experience, or symapthise with because you're glad you didn't experience it personally. This story, however, was just boring and pointless. I'm not sure why it's here. An interviewee's perception that an interviewer was mildly curt, and made them a job offer that they accepted for a company they enjoyed working for, isn't what makes The Daily WTF a great read. Sorry - I've heard more engaging and purposeful stories from my grandmother who is 89 and has Alzheimers than was contained in this article. The Read WTF is that this non-story was deemed worthy of publication.
  • Engelbart 2012-10-30 13:54
    It is also a good idea to have Page 1/2 and Page 2/2 clearly marked at the top of the page.

    Not the bottom!

    MD read all of the way to the bottom before he saw Page 2/2.
  • Engelbart 2012-10-30 13:57
    Ol' Bob:
    foo:
    justanotheradmin:
    Anonymous Bob:
    What's a "CV"? I've heard of a resume, but not a "CV". Is that a British thing?


    Curriculum Vitae. Latin.
    In contrast to resume which is French.


    Down here in the swampland we refer to it as the "What the hail's you bin doin', y'durn fool?" document. Don' need no fancy Frenchified Latinized bull flop, no we don't!

    CAPTCHA: tristique - Don't git yer boxers in a tristique!

    The other acronym is FJH.
    Falsified Job History.

    (Credit to the Late Show writers)
  • Jaxx 2012-12-18 02:55
    Can you provide any tips on designing your resume and/or cover letter for resume scanners?comm
  • JM 2013-05-01 10:33
    ...and the French for "resume" is "CV". "résumé" is exactly "summary", and does not apply to job interviews.