The Beacon of Hope and A Positive Attitude

« Return to Article
  • Other Nagesh 2012-05-30 09:08
    a beacon of hope compared to the vast oceans of crap frist applicants
  • tjb 2012-05-30 09:09
    If those qualifications make you the frist choice you're gonna have a bad time.
  • XXXXX 2012-05-30 09:20
    Always bring your own copy of your resume to an interview. You never know how the recruiter/headhunter/HR service has massaged your information.
  • Nagesh 2012-05-30 09:28
    what is massage information? nagesh is not familiar with the term.
  • snoofle 2012-05-30 09:32
    Resume

    Summary

    I am that I am. Honor me. Bow before me. Revere me. Sacrifice to me.

    Major Accomplishments

    I created the universe and all it contains in 6 days.

    For boredom, I created man. For continued boredom, I created woman.

    (I'm still trying to work out the kinks in that one).

    I created caffeine, coffee and chocolate.

    What I Can Do for You

    I can smite your enemies.

    Why You Should Hire Me

    I can smite you.


  • Andrew 2012-05-30 09:32
    After seeing those murdered paragraphs, I highly doubt XXX XXXX's English communication skills. He could take some tips from the real Nagesh.
  • Anon 2012-05-30 09:37
    They really like to chase the chicks


    I call BS on this one. He was supposed to be British, so I'm pretty sure he would have said:

    They really like to chase the birds
  • Love it! 2012-05-30 09:37
    "Well this is part of who I am: I can reach my very core and rewrite it on demand, I'm not stuck with the limitations of a rigid personality; I adapt, evolve and improve myself on a constant basis. The possibilities are endless, and I have every intention on reaching higher ground through hard work, a positive attitude and the will to do what it takes to succeed."

    You have got to love it!!! Rewriting his core to get past the limitations of a rigid personality!! Impressive :-)
  • emaN ruoY 2012-05-30 09:39
    With the concentration on the sports cars and keys, I'm wondering if it was all a set. If he were to show up unannounced a few days later and sneak a peak and still see the fancy stuff. Granted, it was a bank, so who knows.

    Also, in the US, asking about family during an interview is considered very taboo. Is that not the case in the UK?
  • Tom 2012-05-30 09:40
    Well, I'm not frist, but I I have what it takes to be frist in a professional and social context.
  • Nagesh 2012-05-30 09:45
    Anon:
    They really like to chase the chicks


    I call BS on this one. He was supposed to be British, so I'm pretty sure he would have said:

    They really like to chase the birds


    our school book say - bat hunting and fox hunting are fond time pass of lords and ladies in England.
  • Nagesh 2012-05-30 09:45
    emaN ruoY:
    With the concentration on the sports cars and keys, I'm wondering if it was all a set. If he were to show up unannounced a few days later and sneak a peak and still see the fancy stuff. Granted, it was a bank, so who knows.

    Also, in the US, asking about family during an interview is considered very taboo. Is that not the case in the UK?


    In India, that is normal for all interviews. They ask about yourself and your family.
  • RHuckster 2012-05-30 09:47
    "Excellent, you'll love it here, they're a great bunch of guys. On Fridays, everybody stops working and we break out the beer and crisps, some of the guys head off to town. They really like to chase the chicks, like a rat up a drainpipe some of them. You'll definitely want to ditch your current employer as soon as you see our setup!"

    But he's MARRIED and has kids, you heartless homewrecker!
  • Flash 2012-05-30 09:48
    Positive Attitude:
    "Well this is part of who I am: I can reach my very core and rewrite it on demand, I'm not stuck with the limitations of a rigid personality; I adapt, evolve and improve myself on a constant basis."

    This, of course, is the triggering event for the Singularity. I, for one, welcome our new robot overlord...at least for an interview.
  • F 2012-05-30 09:52
    emaN ruoY:
    With the concentration on the sports cars and keys, I'm wondering if it was all a set. If he were to show up unannounced a few days later and sneak a peak and still see the fancy stuff. Granted, it was a bank, so who knows.

    Also, in the US, asking about family during an interview is considered very taboo. Is that not the case in the UK?


    It would be a very foolish thing to do, as an unsuccessful applicant might allege sex discrimination (it being unlawful to discriminate against someone on the grounds of marital status, among other things). While said applicant might not succeed in an Employment Tribunal case, the company would incur substantial costs (if only in management time) defending it.
  • Not Ali G 2012-05-30 09:55
    Yeesh. That last letter sounds like a Sasha Baron Cohen sketch. An unusually bad one.
  • Vanders 2012-05-30 10:00
    emaN ruoY:
    With the concentration on the sports cars and keys, I'm wondering if it was all a set. If he were to show up unannounced a few days later and sneak a peak and still see the fancy stuff. Granted, it was a bank, so who knows.


    Like some sort of developer version of The Truman Show If he had gone through the false elevator he'd have discovered a huge room full of the real developers, chained to their desks and wearing dirty rags, no doubt.
  • HereIAm 2012-05-30 10:08
    Maybe it's a Yankee editor.
  • RichP 2012-05-30 10:09
    The second letter reads much better if you picture Jean Girard (the Formula One driver from Talladega Nights) as the applicant.
  • Mainframe Web Dev 2012-05-30 10:13
    emaN ruoY:
    With the concentration on the sports cars and keys, I'm wondering if it was all a set. If he were to show up unannounced a few days later and sneak a peak and still see the fancy stuff. Granted, it was a bank, so who knows.

    Also, in the US, asking about family during an interview is considered very taboo. Is that not the case in the UK?


    Taboo in the US? One might say - a protected discrimmination class and illegal per federal employment law.
  • Ben Jammin 2012-05-30 10:21
    emaN ruoY:
    With the concentration on the sports cars and keys, I'm wondering if it was all a set. If he were to show up unannounced a few days later and sneak a peak and still see the fancy stuff. Granted, it was a bank, so who knows.

    Also, in the US, asking about family during an interview is considered very taboo. Is that not the case in the UK?


    In every interview I've had in the US, I've been asked about my personal life, including wife/girlfriend status. It's nothing they can't find off Google and a person's personal life will reflect in their work life, so it is a good insight to have in the interview process.
  • szeryf 2012-05-30 10:24
    This SuperGenius guy from the second story would feel at home in the bank from the first story :)
  • Vroomfundel 2012-05-30 10:29
    Speaking about attitude towards discrimination on both sides of the pond, I can't help but mock the 'Equal Opportunity Employer' thing they have in the UK. On every other web site that accepts online applications you have this 'equal opportunity' section, which requires you to disclose your gender, race, sexual orientation and disability status.

    Why, would a sensible person ask.
    So that you won't be discriminated against, stupid! It's an equal opportunity program.
    I thought about registering myself as disabled black lesbian just to see if they get tempted by the opportunity to score a tick in all boxes with just one candidate (because I fail to envisage any other reason why would they want this information, other than fulfilling a quota in all categories, i.e. for discrimination).
  • CodeRage 2012-05-30 10:32
    Ben Jammin:
    emaN ruoY:
    With the concentration on the sports cars and keys, I'm wondering if it was all a set. If he were to show up unannounced a few days later and sneak a peak and still see the fancy stuff. Granted, it was a bank, so who knows.

    Also, in the US, asking about family during an interview is considered very taboo. Is that not the case in the UK?


    In every interview I've had in the US, I've been asked about my personal life, including wife/girlfriend status. It's nothing they can't find off Google and a person's personal life will reflect in their work life, so it is a good insight to have in the interview process.


    This is the Real WTF! First, it might be a good insight, if you consider illegal insight to be good insight. Secondly, what the hell is your wife/girlfriend status doing as easily searchable info on The Google? Oh nevermind, I must have missed the sar-chasm.
  • frits 2012-05-30 10:43
    Please to meet you, hope you guessed my name.
  • ekolis 2012-05-30 10:45
    Wait, you can put readonly on a property in C#? What in the world would that do? If you want a readonly property in C#, just don't provide a setter! Or was he talking about VB, where for some reason you have to specify readonly even though the lack of a setter should make it plain as day?
  • AB 2012-05-30 10:50
    I suspect the readonly was on a field, not a property.
  • emaN ruoY 2012-05-30 10:53
    ekolis:
    Wait, you can put readonly on a property in C#? What in the world would that do? If you want a readonly property in C#, just don't provide a setter! Or was he talking about VB, where for some reason you have to specify readonly even though the lack of a setter should make it plain as day?

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/acdd6hb7(v=vs.71).aspx
    The readonly keyword is a modifier that you can use on fields. When a field declaration includes a readonly modifier, assignments to the fields introduced by the declaration can only occur as part of the declaration or in a constructor in the same class.
  • Facetious, moi? 2012-05-30 11:03
    Also, in the US, asking about family during an interview is considered very taboo. Is that not the case in the UK?


    Very surprising, since the City is well known for its strict adherence to employment law.
  • Annonymous 2012-05-30 11:21
    ekolis:
    Wait, you can put readonly on a property in C#? What in the world would that do? If you want a readonly property in C#, just don't provide a setter! Or was he talking about VB, where for some reason you have to specify readonly even though the lack of a setter should make it plain as day?


    Haha. Good catch. I glossed right over that when I read it. Of course, I am sure he simply used the wrong term and meant to say field.
  • Qŭert 2012-05-30 11:22
    Can he rewrite his core to be less egocentric?
  • Jack Foluney 2012-05-30 11:54
    For sure he should of had an interview with this guy.
    It would have been hilarious.
  • Mutt 2012-05-30 11:55
    emaN ruoY:
    Also, in the US, asking about family during an interview is considered very taboo. Is that not the case in the UK?

    I don't think this took place in the UK. The poster described the interviewer as 'a fellow Brit', which implies to me that they weren't in Britain...otherwise why would you bother pointing that out?
  • rpjs 2012-05-30 11:56
    Nah "birds" would be a bit lower-class and old-fashioned. The sort of person described would easily use a more American idiom.
  • rpjs 2012-05-30 11:56
    Anon:
    They really like to chase the chicks


    I call BS on this one. He was supposed to be British, so I'm pretty sure he would have said:

    They really like to chase the birds


    Nah "birds" would be a bit lower-class and old-fashioned. The sort of person described would easily use a more American idiom.
  • Calli Arcale 2012-05-30 12:14
    Ben Jammin:
    In every interview I've had in the US, I've been asked about my personal life, including wife/girlfriend status. It's nothing they can't find off Google and a person's personal life will reflect in their work life, so it is a good insight to have in the interview process.


    They're allowed to ask. But you are not required to answer, and in theory, they're not allowed to make decisions based on the answer. Obviously this becomes murky at times. Many do not ask (at least not in any documented way) because then you can't allege discrimination as easily.

    Of course, if they do accept you, one of the forms you'll be required to fill out is an IRS form that *does* ask marital status and so forth, and which they will be required to process. You cannot be required to disclose your race, even to the IRS, but your marital status is significant to calculation of tax obligations. The racial information is used for demographic research and things like that, but since it's voluntary, I would tend to consider its value suspect.
  • Mason Wheeler 2012-05-30 12:33
    Calli Arcale:
    You cannot be required to disclose your race, even to the IRS, but your marital status is significant to calculation of tax obligations. The racial information is used for demographic research and things like that, but since it's voluntary, I would tend to consider its value suspect.


    Then again, if someone really cared, it's not that difficult to make a pretty good guess as to someone's ethnicity if you're able to have a face-to-face conversation with them.
  • Anon 2012-05-30 12:54
    Vroomfundel:
    Speaking about attitude towards discrimination on both sides of the pond, I can't help but mock the 'Equal Opportunity Employer' thing they have in the UK. On every other web site that accepts online applications you have this 'equal opportunity' section, which requires you to disclose your gender, race, sexual orientation and disability status.

    Why, would a sensible person ask.
    So that you won't be discriminated against, stupid! It's an equal opportunity program.
    I thought about registering myself as disabled black lesbian just to see if they get tempted by the opportunity to score a tick in all boxes with just one candidate (because I fail to envisage any other reason why would they want this information, other than fulfilling a quota in all categories, i.e. for discrimination).


    I'm pretty sure you'll find those questions are optional.
  • _ 2012-05-30 13:00
    CodeRage:
    Ben Jammin:
    emaN ruoY:
    With the concentration on the sports cars and keys, I'm wondering if it was all a set. If he were to show up unannounced a few days later and sneak a peak and still see the fancy stuff. Granted, it was a bank, so who knows.

    Also, in the US, asking about family during an interview is considered very taboo. Is that not the case in the UK?


    In every interview I've had in the US, I've been asked about my personal life, including wife/girlfriend status. It's nothing they can't find off Google and a person's personal life will reflect in their work life, so it is a good insight to have in the interview process.


    This is the Real WTF! First, it might be a good insight, if you consider illegal insight to be good insight. Secondly, what the hell is your wife/girlfriend status doing as easily searchable info on The Google? Oh nevermind, I must have missed the sar-chasm.


    It wasn't "on Google" it was "off Google." And if they don't even need Google to find that, just imagine what they can find when they use it.
  • Someone 2012-05-30 13:01
    F:
    an unsuccessful applicant might allege sex discrimination


    What good would it do him or her? It is more prudent to spend your time looking for another job than fighting a lawsuit. Even in the unlikely event that you win the lawsuit, what does it buy you? Maybe the said employer would grudgingly offer you a job and pay you some money as compensation for the discrimination, but what do you do next?

    The problem with you Americans is that you think of suing as a solution for every stupid thing, rather than use your brains. Suing your employer for workplace discrimination is different from suing a could-have-been employer when you have so little data to defend your case.
  • Bridget 2012-05-30 13:10
    XXXXX:
    Always bring your own copy of your resume to an interview. You never know how the recruiter/headhunter/HR service has massaged your information.


    Well done. When I skimmed over this comment it took most of my willpower to keep from dissolving into hysterical giggling at my desk.

    I've known a handful of people that would write something like that letter. I keep one of them on my FB feed simply to watch the trainwreck. Sometimes I feel guilty about it.
  • AN AMAZING CODER 2012-05-30 13:30
    Calli Arcale:
    Ben Jammin:
    In every interview I've had in the US, I've been asked about my personal life, including wife/girlfriend status. It's nothing they can't find off Google and a person's personal life will reflect in their work life, so it is a good insight to have in the interview process.


    They're allowed to ask. But you are not required to answer, and in theory, they're not allowed to make decisions based on the answer. Obviously this becomes murky at times. Many do not ask (at least not in any documented way) because then you can't allege discrimination as easily.

    Of course, if they do accept you, one of the forms you'll be required to fill out is an IRS form that *does* ask marital status and so forth, and which they will be required to process. You cannot be required to disclose your race, even to the IRS, but your marital status is significant to calculation of tax obligations. The racial information is used for demographic research and things like that, but since it's voluntary, I would tend to consider its value suspect.



    To add to this, it's perfectly valid to ask about your family life (read -- not necessarily if you're married) if it's relevant to the position. I previously worked at a consulting gig where 50% travel was not an unreasonable expectation (but not a guaranteed one), so being assured that a person's family life would not be affected by this was important to selecting candidates.

    You might say "just ask if they're ok with 50% travel and be done with it", but that's not good enough. The interviewee needs to diffuse the doubt, not enforce the hope.
  • AN AMAZING CODER 2012-05-30 13:33
    Someone:
    F:
    an unsuccessful applicant might allege sex discrimination


    What good would it do him or her? It is more prudent to spend your time looking for another job than fighting a lawsuit. Even in the unlikely event that you win the lawsuit, what does it buy you? Maybe the said employer would grudgingly offer you a job and pay you some money as compensation for the discrimination, but what do you do next?

    The problem with you Americans is that you think of suing as a solution for every stupid thing, rather than use your brains. Suing your employer for workplace discrimination is different from suing a could-have-been employer when you have so little data to defend your case.



    This is a terrible argument. He never suggested that suing someone is the correct thing to do, he said it's a possible outcome one would want to avoid. It doesn't matter to me what possible good it could do to him or her if I still have to pay money to defend it.

    It's easier to not be smart than it is to stop idiots from being idiots.
  • Jay 2012-05-30 13:45
    Someone:
    F:
    an unsuccessful applicant might allege sex discrimination


    What good would it do him or her? It is more prudent to spend your time looking for another job than fighting a lawsuit. Even in the unlikely event that you win the lawsuit, what does it buy you? Maybe the said employer would grudgingly offer you a job and pay you some money as compensation for the discrimination, but what do you do next?

    The problem with you Americans is that you think of suing as a solution for every stupid thing, rather than use your brains. Suing your employer for workplace discrimination is different from suing a could-have-been employer when you have so little data to defend your case.


    The good it would do him is that he could get a big cash settlement. People in the U.S. have been awarded hundreds of thousands of dollars for successful discrimination lawsuits. Winning is not at all unlikely. Lots of people win such lawsuits.

    You may think it's stupid, I may think it's stupid, but our courts don't think it's stupid, and they're the ones who have a say.
  • Jay 2012-05-30 13:53
    Ben Jammin:
    emaN ruoY:
    With the concentration on the sports cars and keys, I'm wondering if it was all a set. If he were to show up unannounced a few days later and sneak a peak and still see the fancy stuff. Granted, it was a bank, so who knows.

    Also, in the US, asking about family during an interview is considered very taboo. Is that not the case in the UK?


    In every interview I've had in the US, I've been asked about my personal life, including wife/girlfriend status. It's nothing they can't find off Google and a person's personal life will reflect in their work life, so it is a good insight to have in the interview process.


    It may well be good and relevant information, but it's still illegal. You seem to be laboring under the curious delusion that "required by law" and "good idea" have anything to do with each other.
  • Jay 2012-05-30 13:58
    In this Internet age, I'm rather glad that I have a fairly common name. I've searched for my name on Google and dozens of people turn up. Most of them are, to the best of my knowledge, not me.

    Any time I look for a job, I kick around how much personal information I want to reveal. On the one hand, if I tell them about my marital status, religion, political views, etc, and they have different opinions, they might decide not to hire me, and I could miss out on what otherwise might be a good job. But on the other hand, surely sooner or later in the course of office conversation they'll figure out some of these things about me. And if they hate people with opinions such as mine enough that they would have refused to hire me, than even if they don't find some excuse to fire me, they would surely make the job unpleasant. Who wants to go to work every day for a boss who hates you? I'd be better off getting a job somewhere else.

    Just musing.
  • Jim Howard 2012-05-30 14:02
    Here are links to two good articles on what can and can't be asked on an interview in the United States.

    http://employment.findlaw.com/hiring-process/illegal-job-interview-questions.html

    http://employment.findlaw.com/hiring-process/illegal-interview-questions-and-female-applicants.html

    The 'female' article is more specific.
  • mag 2012-05-30 14:04
    I love people who are ready to "bring their addition to the team" anyday ;)
  • Captcha: inhibeo 2012-05-30 15:06
    Nagesh:
    what is massage information? nagesh ain't familiar with the term.

    FTFY
  • Matt Westwood 2012-05-30 15:07
    snoofle:
    Resume

    Summary

    I am that I am. Honor me. Bow before me. Revere me. Sacrifice to me.

    Major Accomplishments

    I created the universe and all it contains in 6 days.

    For boredom, I created man. For continued boredom, I created woman.

    (I'm still trying to work out the kinks in that one).

    I created caffeine, coffee and chocolate.

    What I Can Do for You

    I can smite your enemies.

    Why You Should Hire Me

    I can smite you.



    So ... less than 100% successful on the woman project? Hmm ... Collect your travel expenses from Lizzie in HR on the way out. Can you show Mr. Satan in?
  • Peter 2012-05-30 15:20
    Ben Jammin:
    emaN ruoY:
    With the concentration on the sports cars and keys, I'm wondering if it was all a set. If he were to show up unannounced a few days later and sneak a peak and still see the fancy stuff. Granted, it was a bank, so who knows.

    Also, in the US, asking about family during an interview is considered very taboo. Is that not the case in the UK?


    In every interview I've had in the US, I've been asked about my personal life, including wife/girlfriend status.


    Unless they've changed the EEOC rules since I was briefed on what not to talk about, asking those kinds of questions is illegal in the US. That doesn't mean it isn't done, but if someone doesn't get hired and feels it's because of something personal they were asked about, the company could be looking at an EEOC lawsuit.
  • guest 2012-05-30 15:29
    The second story sounds like my boss describing himself. He thinks he is the greatest strategist and team leader ever to set foot in our company... but he is just crap. Fortunately he is based in Belgium and we only see him a few times per year.
  • da Doctah 2012-05-30 15:37
    How could they have thought the "Beacon of Hope" was Swiss when he says right off the bat he doesn't own a wristwatch? Anybody who showed up for the interview without one would be pegged as a ringer from the get-go.
  • da Doctah 2012-05-30 15:39
    snoofle:
    Resume

    Summary

    I am that I am. Honor me. Bow before me. Revere me. Sacrifice to me.

    Major Accomplishments

    I created the universe and all it contains in 6 days.

    For boredom, I created man. For continued boredom, I created woman.

    (I'm still trying to work out the kinks in that one).

    I created caffeine, coffee and chocolate.

    What I Can Do for You

    I can smite your enemies.

    Why You Should Hire Me

    I can smite you.




    You want a cover letter, it's hard to beat this one:

    Leonardo da Vinci:

    Most illustrious Lord, having now sufficiently seen and considered the proofs of all those who count themselves master and inventors of instruments of war, and finding that their invention and use of the said instruments does not differ in any respect from those in common practice, I am emboldened without prejudice to anyone else to put myself in communication with your Excellency, in order to acquaint you with my secrets, thereafter offering myself at your pleasure effectually to demonstrate at any convenient time all those matters which are in part briefly recorded below,

    1. I have plans for bridges, very light and strong and suitable for carrying very easily...

    2. When a place is besieged I know how to cut off water from the trenches, and how to construct an infinite number of...scaling ladders and other instruments...

    3. If because of the height of the embankment, and the strength of the place of its site, it should be impossible to reduce it by bombardment, I know methods of destroying any citadel or fortress, even if it is built on rock.

    4. I have plans for making cannon, very convenient and easy of transport, with which to hurl small stones in the manner almost of hail...

    5. And it is should happen that the engagement is at sea, I have plans for construction many engines most suitable for attack or defense, and ships which can resist the fire of all the heaviest cannon, and powder and smoke.

    6. Also I have ways of arriving at a certain fixed spot by caverns and secret winding passages made without any noise even though it may be necessary to pass underneath...a river.

    7. Also I can make covered cards, safe and unassailable, which will enter the serried ranks of the enemy with artillery, and there is no company of men at arms so great as not to be broken by it. And behind these the infantry will be able to follow quite unharmed and without any opposition.

    8. Also, if need shall arise, I can make cannon, mortars and light ordnance, of very beautiful and useful shapes, quite different from those in common use.

    9. Where it is not possible to employ cannon, I can supply catapults, mangonels, traps and other engines of wonderful efficacy not in general issue. In short, as the variety of circumstances shall necessitate, I can supply an infinite number of different engines of attack and defense.

    10. In time of peace I believe that I can give you as complete satisfaction as anyone else in architecture, in the construction of buildings both public and private, and in conducting water from one place to another.

    11. Also I can execute sculpture in marble, bronze, or clay and also painting, in which my work will stand comparison with that of anyone else whoever he may be.

    12. Moreover, I would undertake the work of the bronze horse, which shall endure with immortal glory and eternal honor the auspicious memory of the Prince of your father and of the illustrious house of Sforza.

    And if any of the aforesaid things should seem impossible or impracticable to anyone, I offer myself as ready to make trail of them in your park or in whatever place shall please your Excellency, to whom I commend myself with all possible humility.
  • Nickster 2012-05-30 15:47
    What I Can Do for You
    I can smite your enemies.

    Why You Should Hire Me
    I can also smite my enemies.


    There, twisted that for you.
  • Joe 2012-05-30 15:47
    Qŭert:
    Can he rewrite his core to be less egocentric?

    No, egocentrism is a readonly field in his framework.

    --Joe
  • AN AMAZING CODER 2012-05-30 16:17
    Jay:
    In this Internet age, I'm rather glad that I have a fairly common name. I've searched for my name on Google and dozens of people turn up. Most of them are, to the best of my knowledge, not me.

    Any time I look for a job, I kick around how much personal information I want to reveal. On the one hand, if I tell them about my marital status, religion, political views, etc, and they have different opinions, they might decide not to hire me, and I could miss out on what otherwise might be a good job. But on the other hand, surely sooner or later in the course of office conversation they'll figure out some of these things about me. And if they hate people with opinions such as mine enough that they would have refused to hire me, than even if they don't find some excuse to fire me, they would surely make the job unpleasant. Who wants to go to work every day for a boss who hates you? I'd be better off getting a job somewhere else.

    Just musing.


    If they hate you for your personal opinion then you're right...you're better off not working there anyway. But the more likely scenario is they like someone else's opinion _better_ than yours, and therefore voted higher for that person.

    If you think that's dumb, consider the culture where everyone gets along with each other versus one where people have to walk on egg shells all day. I'm not saying it's correct for these things to matter, I'm just saying there's a reason they call it "politically correct" and not "ideally correct."

    It's also the reason that HR exists, and plays a major part in the on boarding process in larger companies.
  • Chelloveck 2012-05-30 16:56
    Calli Arcale:
    You cannot be required to disclose your race, even to the IRS, but your marital status is significant to calculation of tax obligations. The racial information is used for demographic research and things like that, but since it's voluntary, I would tend to consider its value suspect.


    While working my way through school back in the 1980s, I spent a couple summers working in a hospital human resources office. One government regulation required that we report demographic information, including race. Another regulation prohibited us from asking for such information. I forget exactly how it was resolved, but I think the HR director just made up a bunch of numbers and called it close enough.
  • Phreddd Phonphodopholuss. 2012-05-30 17:15
    Please don't put all us Americans in with the lot that sue for a living. It's not really the populous, but the lawyers and judges that perpetuate it for their own benefit. The airwaves are full of "if you or somebody you know has been hurt you're entitled to compensation" ads. Since most law-makers are also lawyers, any attempt to put in tort reform is always soundly defeated.
  • D-Coder 2012-05-30 17:20
    da Doctah:
    snoofle:
    Resume

    Summary

    I am that I am. Honor me. Bow before me. Revere me. Sacrifice to me.

    Major Accomplishments

    I created the universe and all it contains in 6 days.

    For boredom, I created man. For continued boredom, I created woman.

    (I'm still trying to work out the kinks in that one).

    I created caffeine, coffee and chocolate.

    What I Can Do for You

    I can smite your enemies.

    Why You Should Hire Me

    I can smite you.




    You want a cover letter, it's hard to beat this one:

    Leonardo da Vinci:

    Most illustrious Lord, having now sufficiently seen and considered the proofs of all those who count themselves master and inventors of instruments of war, and finding that their invention and use of the said instruments does not differ in any respect from those in common practice, I am emboldened without prejudice to anyone else to put myself in communication with your Excellency, in order to acquaint you with my secrets, thereafter offering myself at your pleasure effectually to demonstrate at any convenient time all those matters which are in part briefly recorded below,

    1. I have plans for bridges, very light and strong and suitable for carrying very easily...

    2. When a place is besieged I know how to cut off water from the trenches, and how to construct an infinite number of...scaling ladders and other instruments...

    3. If because of the height of the embankment, and the strength of the place of its site, it should be impossible to reduce it by bombardment, I know methods of destroying any citadel or fortress, even if it is built on rock.
    << etc >>

    Yes, but if you're Leonardo da Vinci... it's not boasting.
  • FarquardSleeze 2012-05-30 17:36
    "increasing level of seedy intensity"

    Awesome.
  • da Doctah 2012-05-30 17:57
    D-Coder:
    da Doctah:
    You want a cover letter, it's hard to beat this one:

    Leonardo da Vinci:

    Most illustrious Lord, having now sufficiently seen and considered the proofs of all those who count themselves master and inventors of instruments of war, and finding that their invention and use of the said instruments does not differ in any respect from those in common practice, I am emboldened without prejudice to anyone else to put myself in communication with your Excellency, in order to acquaint you with my secrets, thereafter offering myself at your pleasure effectually to demonstrate at any convenient time all those matters which are in part briefly recorded below,

    1. I have plans for bridges, very light and strong and suitable for carrying very easily...

    2. When a place is besieged I know how to cut off water from the trenches, and how to construct an infinite number of...scaling ladders and other instruments...

    3. If because of the height of the embankment, and the strength of the place of its site, it should be impossible to reduce it by bombardment, I know methods of destroying any citadel or fortress, even if it is built on rock.
    << etc >>

    Yes, but if you're Leonardo da Vinci... it's not boasting.


    Place I got the quote from says Leo got the job.
  • Jim 2012-05-30 18:59
    Anon:
    They really like to chase the chicks


    I call BS on this one. He was supposed to be British, so I'm pretty sure he would have said:

    They really like to chase the Old boilers

    FTFY....

    But seriously, I thought he meant they enjoy their time on the land....
  • dfsmn 2012-05-30 19:09
    F:
    emaN ruoY:
    With the concentration on the sports cars and keys, I'm wondering if it was all a set. If he were to show up unannounced a few days later and sneak a peak and still see the fancy stuff. Granted, it was a bank, so who knows.

    Also, in the US, asking about family during an interview is considered very taboo. Is that not the case in the UK?


    It would be a very foolish thing to do, as an unsuccessful applicant might allege sex discrimination (it being unlawful to discriminate against someone on the grounds of marital status, among other things). While said applicant might not succeed in an Employment Tribunal case, the company would incur substantial costs (if only in management time) defending it.
    Maybe in an overly litigious society like our friends in the US. In most of the civilised world, while it is illegal to discriminate against people based on anything (including inability to actually fulfil the job you're hiring them for, it seems) it is a difficult thing to prove....

    Off the track a little, my favourites are the ones that complain they're discrimnated against because they don't cut (or wash) their hair, or have enough piercings to well <insert something witty>. When you know what the issue is, and it's something you can easily change (wash hair, cut hair, remove piercings) you have noone but yourself to blame when people choose not to hire you - especially for public facing roles where your presentation is important to the companies image (Australia Post, Civic Centre, Canberra - anyone?). There seems an increasing Chico Marx attitude (I don't want to work, I just want a job) coupled with some sort of assumption that people somehow have a right to do whatever work they please, even if they are incapable of it or unwilling to learn fundamental skills required for it.
  • Yes 2012-05-30 19:17
    Vroomfundel:
    Speaking about attitude towards discrimination on both sides of the pond, I can't help but mock the 'Equal Opportunity Employer' thing they have in the UK. On every other web site that accepts online applications you have this 'equal opportunity' section, which requires you to disclose your gender, race, sexual orientation and disability status.

    Why, would a sensible person ask.
    So that you won't be discriminated against, stupid! It's an equal opportunity program.
    I thought about registering myself as disabled black lesbian just to see if they get tempted by the opportunity to score a tick in all boxes with just one candidate (because I fail to envisage any other reason why would they want this information, other than fulfilling a quota in all categories, i.e. for discrimination).
    THIS, 100% THIS. Any organisation that wants to know any personal detail about you on the basis that they are an equal opportunity employer does not understand equal opportunities.

    EO is not about balancing workplaces into demographics that reflect the real world. EO is about hiring the best person for the job irrespective of their heritage, personal life or colour car they drive. By asking whether someone is a particular gender, ethnicity or sexual orientation we are simply setting up a list we can use to discriminate against some candidates.
    For example, "We are an equal opportunity employer, what is your gender?" would imply that they believe they have an imbalance in the workplace toward one gender and are looking to hire the other - this is not EO. Ideally (and of course it's not always possible because of the human factors and occasionally language problems) the 1st page of a resume (assuming it contains onley personal infromation) can be thrown out, and the resume' assessed for it's content with no concern for WHO the applicant is, just HOW WELL they suit the position...

    That said, there are probably times when gender is important for a role (not that any such cases immediately spring to mind)
  • Some guy 2012-05-30 19:53
    That's also the case in Australia. It is illegal to ask about marital status, pregnancy status, race, religion, etc. in a job interview.

    So I'm surprised if the UK (which obviously has similar laws to Australia) would allow this.
  • Some guy 2012-05-30 19:54
    Mainframe Web Dev:
    emaN ruoY:
    With the concentration on the sports cars and keys, I'm wondering if it was all a set. If he were to show up unannounced a few days later and sneak a peak and still see the fancy stuff. Granted, it was a bank, so who knows.

    Also, in the US, asking about family during an interview is considered very taboo. Is that not the case in the UK?


    Taboo in the US? One might say - a protected discrimmination class and illegal per federal employment law.


    That's also the case in Australia. It is illegal to ask about marital status, pregnancy status, race, religion, etc. in a job interview.

    So I'm surprised if the UK (which obviously has similar laws to Australia) would allow this.

    PS: Sorry for dupe; first time poster.
  • Larry 2012-05-30 21:42
    Yes:
    there are probably times when gender is important for a role (not that any such cases immediately spring to mind)
    I know gender makes a huge difference in how much I'm willing to pay a stripper.
  • Coyne 2012-05-30 22:34
    The Positive Attitude letter is a bit wordy. Fixed it:


    To whom it may concern:

    I can do anything. I can be anything. I can get along with anything. You need me. Hire me and pay me.

    Best, XXX XXXX

  • CZeke 2012-05-30 23:35
    Hey, Jean-Ralphio is going into the web development business!
  • Baboon 2012-05-31 00:03
    I totally agree, chasing birds or as we sometimes call them -- totty -- is very British we don't really use words like chicks, that's so American ... still I wonder who the bank was, but having worked in a couple of investment banks this doesn't surprise me!
  • Matt Westwood 2012-05-31 01:07
    AN AMAZING CODER:
    Jay:
    In this Internet age, I'm rather glad that I have a fairly common name. I've searched for my name on Google and dozens of people turn up. Most of them are, to the best of my knowledge, not me.

    Any time I look for a job, I kick around how much personal information I want to reveal. On the one hand, if I tell them about my marital status, religion, political views, etc, and they have different opinions, they might decide not to hire me, and I could miss out on what otherwise might be a good job. But on the other hand, surely sooner or later in the course of office conversation they'll figure out some of these things about me. And if they hate people with opinions such as mine enough that they would have refused to hire me, than even if they don't find some excuse to fire me, they would surely make the job unpleasant. Who wants to go to work every day for a boss who hates you? I'd be better off getting a job somewhere else.

    Just musing.


    If they hate you for your personal opinion then you're right...you're better off not working there anyway. But the more likely scenario is they like someone else's opinion _better_ than yours, and therefore voted higher for that person.

    If you think that's dumb, consider the culture where everyone gets along with each other versus one where people have to walk on egg shells all day. I'm not saying it's correct for these things to matter, I'm just saying there's a reason they call it "politically correct" and not "ideally correct."

    It's also the reason that HR exists, and plays a major part in the on boarding process in larger companies.


    Another way to say the same thing: Who wants to employ an arrogant loudmouth knowitall who spends all his time at the proverbial water-cooler preaching his own personal psychodrama all day? Fuck off, waster.
  • Matt Westwood 2012-05-31 01:13
    Larry:
    Yes:
    there are probably times when gender is important for a role (not that any such cases immediately spring to mind)
    I know gender makes a huge difference in how much I'm willing to pay a stripper.


    That's a bit sexist. How can the gender of the person make a difference to how efficiently they can prepare a wall for redecoration?
  • lolwtf 2012-05-31 01:23
    "he was wearing a wristwatch the size of a dinner plate with more telemetry than a jet cockpit."
    Congrats, a TDWTF article finally managed to make me laugh out loud.
  • Shoemaker 2012-05-31 01:43
    lolwtf:
    "he was wearing a wristwatch the size of a dinner plate with more telemetry than a jet cockpit."
    Congrats, a TDWTF article finally managed to make me laugh out loud.


    I nodded, but you could not see. A written equivalent - fitting to the theme - is of course: seconded.
  • Crabs 2012-05-31 01:46
    Yes:
    Vroomfundel:
    Speaking about attitude towards discrimination on both sides of the pond, I can't help but mock the 'Equal Opportunity Employer' thing they have in the UK. On every other web site that accepts online applications you have this 'equal opportunity' section, which requires you to disclose your gender, race, sexual orientation and disability status.

    Why, would a sensible person ask.
    So that you won't be discriminated against, stupid! It's an equal opportunity program.
    I thought about registering myself as disabled black lesbian just to see if they get tempted by the opportunity to score a tick in all boxes with just one candidate (because I fail to envisage any other reason why would they want this information, other than fulfilling a quota in all categories, i.e. for discrimination).
    THIS, 100% THIS. Any organisation that wants to know any personal detail about you on the basis that they are an equal opportunity employer does not understand equal opportunities.

    EO is not about balancing workplaces into demographics that reflect the real world. EO is about hiring the best person for the job irrespective of their heritage, personal life or colour car they drive. By asking whether someone is a particular gender, ethnicity or sexual orientation we are simply setting up a list we can use to discriminate against some candidates.
    For example, "We are an equal opportunity employer, what is your gender?" would imply that they believe they have an imbalance in the workplace toward one gender and are looking to hire the other - this is not EO. Ideally (and of course it's not always possible because of the human factors and occasionally language problems) the 1st page of a resume (assuming it contains onley personal infromation) can be thrown out, and the resume' assessed for it's content with no concern for WHO the applicant is, just HOW WELL they suit the position...

    That said, there are probably times when gender is important for a role (not that any such cases immediately spring to mind)


    A few:
    Acting (obvious)
    Any job with heavy lifting (yes, women can do it. But, for the most part, men are bigger and stronger)
    Doctor's offices (May Need Male and Female staff for the comfort of some patients)
  • gilhad 2012-05-31 01:50
    Yes:

    That said, there are probably times when gender is important for a role (not that any such cases immediately spring to mind)


    For example - actors for certain role in film, theatre ... I know, in holywood films it may not make big difference in stupidity level to assign gender and race randomly, but there are also films, where it really matter. Trust me.

    Police may want some females to make body searches on suspected females.

    In fashion bussines you need some specific gender to present some gender specific clothes (such as underwear, or wedding robes, or swimming suits ...)

    In dance schools there is usually pair which teach dance - so if you need (re)fill only one position there, you also need specific gender.

    And there is much more such position. Not everybody is just small replaceable wheel in big anonymous machine.

    Capcha: eros
  • WinDef 2012-05-31 03:03
    In Germany a company has to meet a quota on woman and disabled people if they have more than 10 employees.

    If not the owner has to pay a fine of 1500 Euro a month (worst case).
  • Roby McAndrew 2012-05-31 05:01
    XXXXX:
    Always bring your own copy of your resume to an interview. You never know how the recruiter/headhunter/HR service has massaged your information.


    This is good advice. I had an interview at which one of the interviewers commented that he hadn't wanted to call me in because my CV was so badly formatted. I produced a copy of the what I had given to the agency, and they showed me what they had got from the agency. In the process of deleting my address and phone number, the agency had wrecked the carefully laid out document.

    The interviewer agreed that my version was excellent, and his colleague said something along the lines of "Yes, that's what I thought had happened".
  • Watson 2012-05-31 05:06
    "If you are an alien, how come you sound like you're from the North?"
  • Matt Westwood 2012-05-31 05:40
    Roby McAndrew:
    XXXXX:
    Always bring your own copy of your resume to an interview. You never know how the recruiter/headhunter/HR service has massaged your information.


    This is good advice. I had an interview at which one of the interviewers commented that he hadn't wanted to call me in because my CV was so badly formatted. I produced a copy of the what I had given to the agency, and they showed me what they had got from the agency. In the process of deleting my address and phone number, the agency had wrecked the carefully laid out document.

    The interviewer agreed that my version was excellent, and his colleague said something along the lines of "Yes, that's what I thought had happened".

    While I was waiting in the reception area of the company for whom I am now happily employed, I heard a loud and bollocky voice from beyond the doorway: "I fucking hate it when they change their fucking CVs just before the fucking interview! I've got to read the fucking thing again now!"

    Turned out the agency muffin had been tweaking it to look better, and it didn't match the one I had in my briefcase - (which was different again) which I presented at the interview itself.
  • Your Name 2012-05-31 06:42
    WinDef:
    In Germany a company has to meet a quota on woman and disabled people if they have more than 10 employees.

    If not the owner has to pay a fine of 1500 Euro a month (worst case).

    So one could say women and disabled people get their jobs mainly to avoid a fine and not because of their own merits...
  • Matt Westwood 2012-05-31 07:31
    Your Name:
    WinDef:
    In Germany a company has to meet a quota on woman and disabled people if they have more than 10 employees.

    If not the owner has to pay a fine of 1500 Euro a month (worst case).

    So one could say women and disabled people get their jobs mainly to avoid a fine and not because of their own merits...


    It's called "positive discrimination" and it sucks.
  • Frank 2012-05-31 07:39
    Your Name:
    WinDef:
    In Germany a company has to meet a quota on woman and disabled people if they have more than 10 employees.

    If not the owner has to pay a fine of 1500 Euro a month (worst case).

    So one could say women and disabled people get their jobs mainly to avoid a fine and not because of their own merits...
    One could say that, but one would never say it, because then one would be facing a crowd of women, minorities, and disabled people. A very angry crowd. Angry because deep in the hidden recesses of their own minds, they have wondered the same thing, only to immediately suppress the thought.

    But then, who cares? They're minorities. That means we have them outnumbered! Yeah for democracy, where the majority is always right!
  • DaveK 2012-05-31 07:43
    Ok, you may have XXX XXXX'd the name at the bottom of the application letter, but I'd recognize that guy anywhere from his writing style.

    How could you pass up the opportunity to meet Mark V. Shaney in the flesh?

  • DaveK 2012-05-31 07:46
    Coyne:
    The Positive Attitude letter is a bit wordy. Fixed it:


    To whom it may concern:

    I have my head up my arse and am dazzled by my own brilliance.

    Best, XXX XXXX

    Even Shorter'd That For Ya!
  • Tobi 2012-05-31 08:18

    Swissgerman:

    Danke für de gueti bricht, ich han mich köschtlich amüsiert.
    Chasch den du überhaupt no schwizerdütsch?
    Gruess us Rapperswil
    Tobi
  • oheso 2012-05-31 08:29
    F:
    ... the company would incur substantial costs (if only in management time) defending it.


    Sounds like a recipe for productivity improvement, then.
  • oheso 2012-05-31 08:35
    Mason Wheeler:

    Then again, if someone really cared, it's not that difficult to make a pretty good guess as to someone's ethnicity if you're able to have a face-to-face conversation with them.


    http://alllooksame.com/exam_room.php

    Knock yourself out.
  • Smug Unix User 2012-05-31 08:45
    Are you sure the second one wasn't generated from a spam bot utilizing a Markov chain?
  • axg 2012-05-31 08:59
    In Germany,

    you actually are meant to post this kind of information (marital status, kids, sometimes even siblings and occupation of parents) including a picture of you on your resume.

    Contrary to the US Anti-Discrimination Concept, in Germany they want to know as much about you right from the start - and if you don't provide it (by f.e. bringing an american style resume) you usually just get sorted out.

    As much as I know this is common in mostly all european countries, I can only speak for Finland and Germany for myself though.

    Also, in Germany, it is customary to actually ask the applicant for how much m oney they expect out of a position, something else I think is not that common in the US..
  • Ouch! You stepped on my Zune-thang! 2012-05-31 09:50
    gilhad:
    Yes:

    That said, there are probably times when gender is important for a role (not that any such cases immediately spring to mind)


    For example - actors for certain role in film, theatre ... I know, in holywood films it may not make big difference in stupidity level to assign gender and race randomly, but there are also films, where it really matter. Trust me.

    Police may want some females to make body searches on suspected females.

    In fashion bussines you need some specific gender to present some gender specific clothes (such as underwear, or wedding robes, or swimming suits ...)

    In dance schools there is usually pair which teach dance - so if you need (re)fill only one position there, you also need specific gender.

    And there is much more such position. Not everybody is just small replaceable wheel in big anonymous machine.

    Capcha: eros
    What's (perhaps) interesting, is that most of these sex/gender-discriminating choices in who should do a job are the product of other sex/gender-discrimination.

    You need women to model women's clothes - but why should there be "women's clothes" and "men's clothes" anyway?

    You need a female officer to perform a search on a female suspect - but why should there be any difference in comfort for either the searcher or the searchee or any greater/lesser expectation for abuse?

    You need a man to demonstrate the men's leading role in a dance - but why can't a woman lead a man or a woman lead a woman or a man lead a man? They can all do it. If that makes the students uncomfortable somehow, then that's just the product of their own sexism or heteronormativism.

    Which brings to the first one - if men and women are equal, why does a particular role in a story have to be filled by a person with particular plumbing? This apparent belief of ours is just more sexism justified by the sexism of others?

    How can you ever have justice when injustice is its own excuse?
  • justsomedudette 2012-05-31 09:58
    Watson:
    "If you are an alien, how come you sound like you're from the North?"
    Lots of planets have a north.
  • KattMan 2012-05-31 10:03
    Ouch! You stepped on my Zune-thang!:

    Which brings to the first one - if men and women are equal, why does a particular role in a story have to be filled by a person with particular plumbing? This apparent belief of ours is just more sexism justified by the sexism of others?

    How can you ever have justice when injustice is its own excuse?


    Because men and women are NOT equal, they are instead complimentary. I don't believe in equality, there are leaders and followers, strong people and smart people, we are not equal, we are instead complimentary, get over this equality fairy tale.
  • Hugh J. Hole 2012-05-31 10:24
    da Doctah:
    How could they have thought the "Beacon of Hope" was Swiss when he says right off the bat he doesn't own a wristwatch? Anybody who showed up for the interview without one would be pegged as a ringer from the get-go.


    He must have had a cuckoo clock instead.
  • Bridget 2012-05-31 10:25
    Frank:
    Your Name:
    WinDef:
    In Germany a company has to meet a quota on woman and disabled people if they have more than 10 employees.

    If not the owner has to pay a fine of 1500 Euro a month (worst case).

    So one could say women and disabled people get their jobs mainly to avoid a fine and not because of their own merits...
    One could say that, but one would never say it, because then one would be facing a crowd of women, minorities, and disabled people. A very angry crowd. Angry because deep in the hidden recesses of their own minds, they have wondered the same thing, only to immediately suppress the thought.

    But then, who cares? They're minorities. That means we have them outnumbered! Yeah for democracy, where the majority is always right!


    As a disabled woman, I can say that particular thought never crosses my mind. It's always the opposite. Imagine not getting that position you wanted despite being more qualified for it, or being underpaid despite having more experience than your coworkers... and add this question to the list of reasons why: "Is it because my boss thinks I'm an incompetent freak for something I have no control over?" That's the question I suppress in the recesses of my mind because it's a very depressing and futile road to go down.
  • Ouch! You stepped on my Zune-thang! 2012-05-31 10:52
    Bridget:
    Imagine not getting that position you wanted despite being more qualified for it, or being underpaid despite having more experience than your coworkers... and add this question to the list of reasons why: "Is it because my boss thinks I'm an incompetent freak for something I have no control over?" That's the question I suppress in the recesses of my mind because it's a very depressing and futile road to go down.
    I wonder if retards ask themselves the same question. It's not their fault they're retarded.
  • Paul Neumann 2012-05-31 11:29
    frits:
    Please to meet you, hope you guessed my name.
    Could it be frits?
  • Fantastic 2012-05-31 12:01
    justsomedudette:
    Watson:
    "If you are an alien, how come you sound like you're from the North?"
    Lots of planets have a north.

    ... even England.
  • Decius 2012-05-31 12:36
    Bridget:
    Frank:
    Your Name:
    WinDef:
    In Germany a company has to meet a quota on woman and disabled people if they have more than 10 employees.

    If not the owner has to pay a fine of 1500 Euro a month (worst case).

    So one could say women and disabled people get their jobs mainly to avoid a fine and not because of their own merits...
    One could say that, but one would never say it, because then one would be facing a crowd of women, minorities, and disabled people. A very angry crowd. Angry because deep in the hidden recesses of their own minds, they have wondered the same thing, only to immediately suppress the thought.

    But then, who cares? They're minorities. That means we have them outnumbered! Yeah for democracy, where the majority is always right!


    As a disabled woman, I can say that particular thought never crosses my mind. It's always the opposite. Imagine not getting that position you wanted despite being more qualified for it, or being underpaid despite having more experience than your coworkers... and add this question to the list of reasons why: "Is it because my boss thinks I'm an incompetent freak for something I have no control over?" That's the question I suppress in the recesses of my mind because it's a very depressing and futile road to go down.


    I love how you're privy to the qualifications of other applicants! That means that you got into the final cut, where you and the other short-short listers can meet in the lobby and compare notes. Since you obviously weren't the best, or even able to evaluate who was the best for the position, the reason you got onto the short-short list was because of positive discrimination.
  • Bridget 2012-05-31 13:17
    Decius:

    I love how you're privy to the qualifications of other applicants! That means that you got into the final cut, where you and the other short-short listers can meet in the lobby and compare notes. Since you obviously weren't the best, or even able to evaluate who was the best for the position, the reason you got onto the short-short list was because of positive discrimination.


    Internal position. I work alongside the person who got it now. And all I'm saying is that the fear of negative discrimination is far greater and it's a nasty little question that's sitting along with 'did I ask for too big a salary?' or 'are my job skills lacking?' I try not to disclose disability status in interviews unless the interviewer notices just because I fear how heavily it'll count against me. And for the most part, it's not been an issue. When it was though, it was really ugly. So disclosing disability ever working in my favor? Maybe when someone offers to carry my groceries out to the car for me... but I find it incredible that it'd happen in a workplace. Maybe someday I'll be proven wrong, but I really like my current coworkers so it may be a while before I try for a better job.
  • hr45u4y5y 2012-05-31 14:24
    He sureley should'f.
  • Nagesh 2012-05-31 14:35
    Matt Westwood:
    Larry:
    Yes:
    there are probably times when gender is important for a role (not that any such cases immediately spring to mind)
    I know gender makes a huge difference in how much I'm willing to pay a stripper.


    That's a bit sexist. How can the gender of the person make a difference to how efficiently they can prepare a wall for redecoration?


    is simple. in most case guys will strip the wall quickly than women.
  • Paul Neumann 2012-05-31 15:18
    DaveK:
    Coyne:
    The Positive Attitude letter is a bit wordy. Fixed it:


    To whom it may concern:

    I have my head up my arse and am dazzled by my own brillance.

    Best, XXX XXXX

    Even Shorter'd That For Ya!
    ftfy! Gah, some people's spelling.
  • AN AMAZING CODER 2012-05-31 15:23
    gilhad:
    Yes:

    That said, there are probably times when gender is important for a role (not that any such cases immediately spring to mind)




    It's also not illegal if it matches the theme or brand of your establishment. For example, Hooters waitresses, Playboy's Casino dealers, etc.

    Also, for the non-U.S. viewers -- it still happens all the time. the REASON why the penalty is so high is probably related to the fact that a company would have to have a proven history of discrimination in order to lose a case. Denny's didn't lose their discrimination case because 1 person was denied service and sued them, it was because thousands had been.
  • Aaron 2012-05-31 15:42
    "...the proof is in the pudding..."

    *facepalm*

    I believe he means "the proof of the pudding is in the eating." How the heck could the proof be *IN* the pudding?
  • Andy 2012-05-31 16:22
    It's a mangling of that figure of speech, but it's fairly common.

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081213192730AAMBoGC
  • voyou 2012-05-31 20:00
    Yes:
    Vroomfundel:
    Speaking about attitude towards discrimination on both sides of the pond, I can't help but mock the 'Equal Opportunity Employer' thing they have in the UK. On every other web site that accepts online applications you have this 'equal opportunity' section, which requires you to disclose your gender, race, sexual orientation and disability status.

    Why, would a sensible person ask.
    So that you won't be discriminated against, stupid! It's an equal opportunity program.
    I thought about registering myself as disabled black lesbian just to see if they get tempted by the opportunity to score a tick in all boxes with just one candidate (because I fail to envisage any other reason why would they want this information, other than fulfilling a quota in all categories, i.e. for discrimination).
    THIS, 100% THIS. Any organisation that wants to know any personal detail about you on the basis that they are an equal opportunity employer does not understand equal opportunities.

    EO is not about balancing workplaces into demographics that reflect the real world. EO is about hiring the best person for the job irrespective of their heritage, personal life or colour car they drive. By asking whether someone is a particular gender, ethnicity or sexual orientation we are simply setting up a list we can use to discriminate against some candidates.
    For example, "We are an equal opportunity employer, what is your gender?" would imply that they believe they have an imbalance in the workplace toward one gender and are looking to hire the other - this is not EO. Ideally (and of course it's not always possible because of the human factors and occasionally language problems) the 1st page of a resume (assuming it contains onley personal infromation) can be thrown out, and the resume' assessed for it's content with no concern for WHO the applicant is, just HOW WELL they suit the position...

    That said, there are probably times when gender is important for a role (not that any such cases immediately spring to mind)


    You're both misunderstanding the point of these Equal Opportunities questions. They don't use this information to make a decision about who to employ; indeed, if they're doing it right, the people making hiring decisions never get to see this information (otherwise, the company is opening itself up to lawsuits). The point of asking for this information is so that the company can see, for instance, whether the percentage of women who apply is greater or less than the percentage who are invited to interviews.
  • Mathew 2012-06-01 05:46
    Tobi:

    Swissgerman:

    Danke für de gueti bricht, ich han mich köschtlich amüsiert.
    Chasch den du überhaupt no schwizerdütsch?
    Gruess us Rapperswil
    Tobi


    Hey, du verdammte löli, du hesch gschecht ned tscheggt, er isch nöd en schwiitzer. hohlio behindi. liebi grüess.
  • Mathew 2012-06-01 05:46
    Tobi:

    Swissgerman:

    Danke für de gueti bricht, ich han mich köschtlich amüsiert.
    Chasch den du überhaupt no schwizerdütsch?
    Gruess us Rapperswil
    Tobi


    Hey, du verdammte löli, du hesch gschecht ned tscheggt, er isch nöd en schwiitzer. hohlio behindi. liebi grüess.
  • Level 2 2012-06-01 07:46
    emaN ruoY:
    Also, in the US, asking about family during an interview is considered very taboo. Is that not the case in the UK?


    The other guy mentioned wife and kids in his CV. The interviewer commented on that. He did not ask for information.
  • Vroomfundel 2012-06-01 07:47
    voyou:

    You're both misunderstanding the point of these Equal Opportunities questions. They don't use this information to make a decision about who to employ; indeed, if they're doing it right, the people making hiring decisions never get to see this information (otherwise, the company is opening itself up to lawsuits). The point of asking for this information is so that the company can see, for instance, whether the percentage of women who apply is greater or less than the percentage who are invited to interviews.


    I don't think that's entirely plausible - even if the person making the hiring decisions doesn't get to see this information (even though this can happen off the record) HR do - and they are the ones that get to send the interview invitations, so in the best case we move the positive discrimination one step ahead.
    And of course Mr. or Ms. big boss can always hire that white straight male no matter the other options as these traits are usually readily evident.
  • ceiswyn 2012-06-01 12:38
    Vroomfundel:
    I don't think that's entirely plausible - even if the person making the hiring decisions doesn't get to see this information (even though this can happen off the record) HR do - and they are the ones that get to send the interview invitations


    The person in HR who sees the Equal Opportunities information is generally not the same person who makes any interview decisions. And in any case, in most of the companies I've worked for HR haven't been the ones making the interview decisions; they're not qualified to! They just collate all the CVs, remove the equal ops info, and send the rest on to the manager responsible for the vacancy that's being filled. And that's who makes the interview decisions.

    And of course Mr. or Ms. big boss can always hire that white straight male no matter the other options as these traits are usually readily evident.


    Of course they can. And if they are consistently hiring the straight white male no matter the other options, the equal opportunities records will provide a paper trail showing that that's what's happening. Being as that's what they're for, an' all.
  • Tom 2012-06-01 13:43
    Depends on the environment, of course, but I wrote a recruiting system for a company a few years back. The EEO questionnaire was voluntary and required to be anonymous to HR, who filtered and scheduled the interviews.

    An enterprising web admin or DBA probably could have matched EEO answers to applicants, of course. But to the people in the hiring process, it was pretty well anonymized.
  • Nagesh 2012-06-01 15:34
    voyou:
    The point of asking for this information is so that the company can see, for instance, whether the percentage of women who apply is greater or less than the percentage who are invited to interviews.

    And what, pray tell, can they then do with that information? The only logical opportunities are (a) do nothing, or (b) send out a memo to their hiring managers saying, please try not to hire so many redhead Welshmen; we're over quota there.

    The first of this is pointless, the second, pure an simple, constitutes institutionalized discrimination against whatever demographic that happens to be over quota this year.

    I had to fill out these forms when I applied for a job at a British "university" about a decade ago. With the application I put down my race (they claimed to be asking about "ethnicity", but the non-write-in options included "white" and "black") as "none of your business". Then after being hired, I was required to fill out another form of the same kind, in which I disclosed my "ethnicity" as "Smurf". A couple of years later after I left, I briefly came back to finish a paper while otherwise being between job. I then put myself down as ethnically "get lost, you racist fucks". And then the department head had the chin to order ME to apologize!

    An no, no single one of these forms marked the question as optional or in any way evidenced any unease about asking them (though some people have later tried to defend said "university" by claiming that it was actually the British government that required them to act like racist fucks and they themselves could do nothing about it ...)

    Sheesh.
  • Tatterdemalion 2012-06-01 20:27
    I'm fairly sure Positive Attitude Guy is actually an AI.

    "...Well this is part of who I am: I can reach my very core and rewrite it on demand, I'm not stuck with the limitations of a rigid personality"

    "You must have gotten a brief glimpse at who I am at this point, but I would rather not spill the beans right away"

    And the grammar/syntax has definitely got my Turing-sense tingling. An AI that knows it's an AI? And is applying for random tech jobs? Man, I kind of want to write the screenplay....
  • Tupac 2012-06-02 01:10
    Nagesh:
    Anon:
    They really like to chase the chicks


    I call BS on this one. He was supposed to be British, so I'm pretty sure he would have said:

    They really like to chase the birds


    our school book say - bat hunting and fox hunting are fond time pass of lords and ladies in England.


    This is probably the funniest thing I have ever read
  • bjolling 2012-06-02 05:24
    Bridget:
    Decius:

    I love how you're privy to the qualifications of other applicants! That means that you got into the final cut, where you and the other short-short listers can meet in the lobby and compare notes. Since you obviously weren't the best, or even able to evaluate who was the best for the position, the reason you got onto the short-short list was because of positive discrimination.


    Internal position. I work alongside the person who got it now. And all I'm saying is that the fear of negative discrimination is far greater and it's a nasty little question that's sitting along with 'did I ask for too big a salary?' or 'are my job skills lacking?' I try not to disclose disability status in interviews unless the interviewer notices just because I fear how heavily it'll count against me. And for the most part, it's not been an issue. When it was though, it was really ugly. So disclosing disability ever working in my favor? Maybe when someone offers to carry my groceries out to the car for me... but I find it incredible that it'd happen in a workplace. Maybe someday I'll be proven wrong, but I really like my current coworkers so it may be a while before I try for a better job.
    Sorry to be so blunt about it but judging from what you post on the TDWTF forums, I'd guess that it's your personality holding you back: being quick to judge, not held back by actually knowing what's really going on
  • swissguy 2012-06-03 08:10
    szeryf:
    This SuperGenius guy from the second story would feel at home in the bank from the first story :)

    If the bank is the one I suspect, he would be at home, indeed.
  • Johann 2012-06-03 12:25
    This is the most wonderful two submissions I ever read on this site. I laughed so much, thanks :)
  • Johann 2012-06-03 12:31
    "he was wearing a wristwatch the size of a dinner plate with more telemetry than a jet cockpit."

    AHAHAHAHA!!!

    Seriously, I'm STILL laughing at all of it... they're both pure poetry. Great writing like this makes this site so much more enjoyable than just the bare fuck-ups of others would. Schadenfreude wears out quickly, but some words are for eternity :D
  • Xingularity 2012-06-04 02:57
    Tatterdemalion :
    I'm fairly sure Positive Attitude Guy is actually an AI.

    "...Well this is part of who I am: I can reach my very core and rewrite it on demand, I'm not stuck with the limitations of a rigid personality"

    "You must have gotten a brief glimpse at who I am at this point, but I would rather not spill the beans right away"

    And the grammar/syntax has definitely got my Turing-sense tingling. An AI that knows it's an AI? And is applying for random tech jobs? Man, I kind of want to write the screenplay....


    I initially thought that... but it could just be someone with a 90% grasp of English and a really outgoing personality (or, more likely, put on for attention -- see-also the peacock)
  • Mr Spiggott 2012-06-04 05:38
    Bridget:


    I try not to disclose disability status in interviews unless the interviewer notices just because I fear how heavily it'll count against me.

  • Bridget 2012-06-04 08:13
    bjolling:
    Sorry to be so blunt about it but judging from what you post on the TDWTF forums, I'd guess that it's your personality holding you back: being quick to judge, not held back by actually knowing what's really going on


    That is rather hysterical, considering what website we're on and all.
  • rast 2012-06-05 15:43
    Bridget:
    Decius:

    I love how you're privy to the qualifications of other applicants! That means that you got into the final cut, where you and the other short-short listers can meet in the lobby and compare notes. Since you obviously weren't the best, or even able to evaluate who was the best for the position, the reason you got onto the short-short list was because of positive discrimination.


    Internal position. I work alongside the person who got it now.


    Yeah, I hate when I get passed over in favor of someone less qualified, too. But since I'm a straight white normal (that is, not disabled) male, I can't blame discrimination. Instead, I assume the relevant manager made a mistake. That's just what managers do.
  • Clevel 2012-06-07 09:42
    Chelloveck:
    While working my way through school back in the 1980s, I spent a couple summers working in a hospital human resources office. One government regulation required that we report demographic information, including race. Another regulation prohibited us from asking for such information. I forget exactly how it was resolved, but I think the HR director just made up a bunch of numbers and called it close enough.


    Generally this is done by having separate forms, the one containing demographic details is separated kept out of the hiring process. With electronic applications its just a matter of storing the demographic details in separate tables or what not, and then having a view for the hiring process which does not contain any of those details.
  • e john 2012-06-08 19:36
    Frank:
    Your Name:
    WinDef:
    In Germany a company has to meet a quota on woman and disabled people if they have more than 10 employees.

    If not the owner has to pay a fine of 1500 Euro a month (worst case).

    So one could say women and disabled people get their jobs mainly to avoid a fine and not because of their own merits...
    One could say that, but one would never say it, because then one would be facing a crowd of women, minorities, and disabled people. A very angry crowd. Angry because deep in the hidden recesses of their own minds, they have wondered the same thing, only to immediately suppress the thought.

    But then, who cares? They're minorities. That means we have them outnumbered! Yeah for democracy, where the majority is always right!


    Women, of course, are not a minority ... just those willing to date me.

    captcha: ratis. short for ratissimus dorsae, the long flat muscles along both sides of your face that twitch whenever you're about to lie to a child so you can dump him on some other family member and get out of there to go chase birds. Or chicks.
  • Goob 2012-06-10 18:36
    I had no idea Tim Ferris was a Java programmer...
  • Cbuttius 2012-07-06 06:22
    The real WTF is putting such a big emphasis on the covering letter, never mind looking for buzzwords on a CV.

    The first application step should always be an online technical test that is relevant to the job and will be marked automatically. Will instantly filter out the candidates who are no-hopers.

    Then get them to write code.

    Too many people get jobs because of having the wrong skill-set, e.g. CV, covering letter and interview technique.

    Don't require a covering letter in the first place as part of the selection process and you won't get ones like the one above.

    In addition I see far too many job specs as a list of technical requirements and no mention of what the person is being brought in to do. Bringing someone in based on one skillset then getting them to do something different on a day-to-day basis does not lead to a good hire. The most skilled person isn't always the one to do the job, not because of their "personality" or ability to write covering letters well, but simply if the job doesn't demand their expertise, meaning they will be bored.

    For those jobs that require a high level of competency, unless they are very short-term hires, tools / products can be learnt. Basic computing competency is a lot harder to acquire.
  • blaj 2013-09-04 07:06
    Sounds like markov chains...