The Daily WTF: Curious Perversions in Information Technology

operagost · 2011-08-24 Reply Admin

breaker:
Voice of the Oppressed:
Looks like I offended someone with the truth.
You're all hypocrites, you know that? You love freedom when it lets you do what you want (you're not hurting anyone, right?), but when I want to do what I want, I deserve to be beaten into a pulp and shoveled away - silenced.
We have a winner.

The demographic here accurately reflects the rest of the westernized world. Almost everyone claims freedom is a good thing, then complains when other people exercise their freedom. True Freedom leads to Anarchy. Sometimes we have to accept that Freedom must (somewhere) have its limitations.

It's interesting (to me anyways) that the Americans who see, to often have the loud voices on rights to freedom and the like still use capital punishment. If people are free to do what they want, why do you have to kill them (or, for that matter, incarcerate them) when they do what they want?

Your argument only makes sense when you point it at specific crimes. In the USA, death is the penalty only for murder and treason. It's pretty hard to claim that those are victimless crimes. If you were to, say, make the claim that prostitution is a victimless crime and no one should be penalized for participating in it, that would be a valid argument.

neminem · 2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Eoin:
Medezark:
tom103:
Are both words (male/mail) pronounced exactly the same? I'm not a native English speaker and my pronunciation isn't so good, so I'm not sure...
Yes in deedy, they are pronounced identically.
Hence the infamous site, hotmale.com, which supposedly gets a lot of accidental traffic.

Which is funny, but not as funny as hotboy.com, back when hotbot was vaguely relevant. (And of course, they all pale in comparison to the king of trick adult sites, whitehouse.com. I learned about that in newsweek, of all places.)

Anyway, yeah, vast majority of dialects, at least, would pronounce the mail/male pair identically. And I took several ling classes in college, including one on phonetics; that's sort of like being a trained linguist, right? :p

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

hoodaticus:
Zylon:
But I guess we get more than our share of extra-stupid IT folks here.
I blame Jeff Attwood. His point-based reward system is straight out of B.F. Skinner - the concept of positive reinforcement. It works even on involuntary glands within your body, as proven by Pavlov.
The very definition of intelligence in behavioral psychology is susceptibility to reward. Ergo, the smartest people are the most sucked-in by earning meaningless "points".

Witness Jon Skeet, who some time ago transcended his mortal coil and is now the patron deity of Stack Overflow. We haven't seen him here since. I suspect this happened to a lot of the good ole' regulars here, or at least, the smartest ones.

I am satisfied with my mere 99.8th percentile intelligence, and am immune to Stack Overflow's charms (with my measly 453 points). Unfortunately, I'm a troll, which makes it sad that this site is stuck with me.

If this site had a point system, I bet at least Jon Skeet would come back :)

This comment is worth 100,000 points! (because points are free)

neminem · 2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Some damn Yank:
hoodaticus:
If this site had a point system, I bet at least Jon Skeet would come back :)
This comment is worth 100,000 points! (because points are free)

I grant some damn yank +5 internets.

hoodaticus · 2011-08-24 Reply Admin

frits:
The Great Lobachevsky:
QJo:
Actually, there *is* a subtle difference in certain dialectical variations.
"mail" pronounced very slightly like "may-ill". "male" pronounced very slightly like "may-ull" or "may-all".

But you have to be aurally sharp to be able to detect the difference.

There's only a difference if you happen to talk like Paula Deen.

I'm originally from the Philadelphia area, and I pronounce them slightly different. "Mail" sounds like "Ma-yull" and "male" sounds like it's spelled (no exaggerated diphthong).

Which is exactly how it's supposed to be pronounced.

hoodaticus · 2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Some damn Yank:
This comment is worth 100,000 points! (because points are free)

I'm not smart enough for that to work on me.

operagost · 2011-08-24 Reply Admin

The Great Lobachevsky:
QJo:
Actually, there *is* a subtle difference in certain dialectical variations.
"mail" pronounced very slightly like "may-ill". "male" pronounced very slightly like "may-ull" or "may-all".

But you have to be aurally sharp to be able to detect the difference.

There's only a difference if you happen to talk like Paula Deen.

Have you heard that lady say, "spiral ham"? SPAAGHRAL oh how I wanted to punch her through the TV.

frits · 2011-08-24 Reply Admin

hoodaticus:
frits:
The Great Lobachevsky:
QJo:
Actually, there *is* a subtle difference in certain dialectical variations.
"mail" pronounced very slightly like "may-ill". "male" pronounced very slightly like "may-ull" or "may-all".

But you have to be aurally sharp to be able to detect the difference.

There's only a difference if you happen to talk like Paula Deen.

I'm originally from the Philadelphia area, and I pronounce them slightly different. "Mail" sounds like "Ma-yull" and "male" sounds like it's spelled (no exaggerated diphthong).

Which is exactly how it's supposed to be pronounced.

We do have one of the older surviving dialects of English. It even predates RP and most of the other current British accents.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Daily WTF, I just wanted to say thank you for this post.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Where I work, the number of women working as programmers has dropped off a lot. Way back in the day (the 1970s - 1980s), it was not unusual to see programming shops with up to half the staff being women. Today, not so much.

Zylon · 2011-08-24 Reply Admin

operagost:
Have you heard that lady say, "spiral ham"? SPAAGHRAL oh how I wanted to punch her through the TV.

SPATCHLER, Y'ALL!

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

operagost:
The Great Lobachevsky:
There's only a difference if you happen to talk like Paula Deen.
Have you heard that lady say, "spiral ham"? SPAAGHRAL oh how I wanted to punch her through the TV.

I had a home-ec teacher who said "parmeesian" and "ingreedienses". Made me question everything else she taught us.

Captcha: acsi - computer code for dyslexics.

ObiWayneKenobi · 2011-08-24 Reply Admin

I've worked with very few female programmers. One of them was quite hot (and married, unfortunately, and was like 5 years older than me at the time so I wouldn't have had a shot with her anyways) and knew I had a huge crush on her, but we worked well.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Easy reader edition #1: "A girl? A GIRL! A GIRL! A real girl? An actual girl? What does it look like? I want one! Hello... girl. Do you come here often?" "Actually, I don't think I'm supposed to be here." [image]

Easy reader edition #2: Everyone is being professional. Girl lets slip that she has a dirty mind. Hijinks ensue. Girl is accepted into tribe.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

ObiWayneKenobi:
One of them was quite hot (... and was like 5 years older than me at the time so I wouldn't have had a shot with her anyways)

The mind boggles. Five years difference is a deal-killer in your world?

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

frits:
hoodaticus:
frits:
The Great Lobachevsky:
QJo:
Actually, there *is* a subtle difference in certain dialectical variations.
"mail" pronounced very slightly like "may-ill". "male" pronounced very slightly like "may-ull" or "may-all".

But you have to be aurally sharp to be able to detect the difference.

There's only a difference if you happen to talk like Paula Deen.

I'm originally from the Philadelphia area, and I pronounce them slightly different. "Mail" sounds like "Ma-yull" and "male" sounds like it's spelled (no exaggerated diphthong).

Which is exactly how it's supposed to be pronounced.
We do have one of the older surviving dialects of English. It even predates RP and most of the other current British accents.

Yo: I don't know if your assertion would hold wooder at the Ac-a-me: Smith and Tangier Islands in the Chesapeake have the real older surviving dialects of English. But it is a treat to hear the dulcet Philly tones of television ranters Chris Matthews and Jim Cramer.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

frits:
The Great Lobachevsky:
QJo:
Actually, there *is* a subtle difference in certain dialectical variations.
"mail" pronounced very slightly like "may-ill". "male" pronounced very slightly like "may-ull" or "may-all".

But you have to be aurally sharp to be able to detect the difference.

There's only a difference if you happen to talk like Paula Deen.

I'm originally from the Philadelphia area, and I pronounce them slightly different. "Mail" sounds like "Ma-yull" and "male" sounds like it's spelled (no exaggerated diphthong).

Yeah, and we say "woodher" instead of "wah-ter", and "crick" instead of "creek"

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

BillClintonsThirdTerm:
frits:
The Great Lobachevsky:
QJo:
Actually, there *is* a subtle difference in certain dialectical variations.
"mail" pronounced very slightly like "may-ill". "male" pronounced very slightly like "may-ull" or "may-all".

But you have to be aurally sharp to be able to detect the difference.

There's only a difference if you happen to talk like Paula Deen.

I'm originally from the Philadelphia area, and I pronounce them slightly different. "Mail" sounds like "Ma-yull" and "male" sounds like it's spelled (no exaggerated diphthong).

Yeah, and we say "woodher" instead of "wah-ter", and "crick" instead of "creek"

Hey, now. Everyone knows that the difference between a crick and a creek is that a creek has fish in it.

frits · 2011-08-24 Reply Admin

trtrwtf:
ObiWayneKenobi:
One of them was quite hot (... and was like 5 years older than me at the time so I wouldn't have had a shot with her anyways)

The mind boggles. Five years difference is a deal-killer in your world?

In my world, it makes her about 10 years too old (and counting...).

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

frits:
trtrwtf:
ObiWayneKenobi:
One of them was quite hot (... and was like 5 years older than me at the time so I wouldn't have had a shot with her anyways)

The mind boggles. Five years difference is a deal-killer in your world?
In my world, it makes her about 10 years too old (and counting...).

Well yeah, but you're old.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

thistooshallpass:
I was friend with a HR girl in a previous job, a mostly-male IT shop. She was attractive and single, and she was going crazy with all the invitations, creepy emails, anonymous love letters and late-night voicemails. When she gave her notice, she went to lunch with her replacement, which was even more attractive; they discussed the creep issue and my friend suggested that at first she should talk a lot about her (fake) boyfriend so people would not bother her. It worked.
What does it mean? That if you are a male working in a mostly-male organization and the HR girl talks a lot about her boyfriend, she is probably lying so it's okay to send her creepy emails and invite her to VMWorld (all expenses paid).

This is why we can't have nice things, other dudes!

CAPTCHA: dolor. Yup, that's an accurate description.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

The real wtf is all the sexism.

Signed, A female developer

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

RealWTF:
The real wtf is all the sexism.
Signed, A female developer

I, too, hate these negative attitudes about men and how we should be ashamed of ourselves for the behavior of other men. Judging "men" as one big group as if each one's words or actions somehow reflect on all of us (i.e. sexism).

On the brighter side, the women in the stories are both portrayed in a perfectly dignified light - one was misdirected by HR and the other is a perfectly competent developer that misheard a word that sounds just like another word.

Observations that there aren't many women in IT are a simple, sad statistically reality, but explanations are given other than how terrible men in the profession are. Which doesn't make any sense, if men in general are terrible, why are they any worse in an unmasculine environment like IT?

So, yeah, I agree totally. I hate sexism. Science and technology can be so sexist.

Zylon · 2011-08-24 Reply Admin

RealWTF:
The real wtf is all the sexism.

I'll have you know that I suffer from a very sexy learning disability. What do I call it? "Sexlexia".

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

True Freedom leads to Anarchy

Only if you live near lots of dicks. I reckon there are a fair few people could have 'true freedom' without resorting to anarchy, but probably not enough.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Zylon:
I'll have you know that I suffer from a very sexy learning disability. What do I call it? "Sexlexia".

Sexlexia - [Sex][Word/Language][Syndrome]

So that's what my condition is called.

Apart from "hung like a mule".

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Matt Westwood:
Anarchy would be a brilliant thing if only it were allowed to flourish unmolested. Trouble is, it always falls foul to fascism.

At least anarchy is better than no government at all.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Careful, your privilege is showing.

As a woman in IT, I'm so glad I'm married. It heads off a lot of potential drama. Most guys are fine, although the 'ooh, a female!' reaction gets old after a while.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Aargh, this was supposed to quote this:

Hortical:
RealWTF:
The real wtf is all the sexism.
Signed, A female developer
I, too, hate these negative attitudes about men and how we should be ashamed of ourselves for the behavior of other men. Judging "men" as one big group as if each one's words or actions somehow reflect on all of us (i.e. sexism).

On the brighter side, the women in the stories are both portrayed in a perfectly dignified light - one was misdirected by HR and the other is a perfectly competent developer that misheard a word that sounds just like another word.

Observations that there aren't many women in IT are a simple, sad statistically reality, but explanations are given other than how terrible men in the profession are. Which doesn't make any sense, if men in general are terrible, why are they any worse in an unmasculine environment like IT?

So, yeah, I agree totally. I hate sexism. Science and technology can be so sexist.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Galapharm:
I reckon there are a fair few people could have 'true freedom' without resorting to anarchy, but probably not enough.

Oh, I think there's a great number of people with which one could build such a fair, peaceful utopia that's tolerant of new ideas and different ways of life.

But the presence of most people would screw it up, and they'd want in once they saw how nice it was. So you'd have to build walls and guns and guards and have strict laws about who's allowed in and remove anyone who doesn't uphold the utopia and the people in this utopia would end up being much more well-off than the people outside and they'll banging on the walls...

Whoops.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Anon:
Careful, your privilege is showing.

Are you saying I shouldn't flaunt the privileged reasoning capabilities of my male brain? I'll be more careful.

lucidfox · 2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Hortical:
I, too, hate these negative attitudes about men and how we should be ashamed of ourselves for the behavior of other men.

I think you're missing the point. The original post is only a part of the problem. Many of the comments here are sexist in their own right ("TRWTF is women", "What did you get up your cunt?", etc.), and their authors should be ashamed of themselves and rethink their attitudes.

Meanwhile, even though I give Alex the points for coupling the submission with another one, its mere appearance in this form on the front page sends a signal to commenters basically telling them that sexist comments are fair game, which is what triggered this thread of fail in the first place.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

plaidfluff:
Jesus Christ, people, women are human beings, not slabs of meat.

I'll stop looking at women like they're slabs of meat when women stop looking at me like I'm an overflowing bank vault.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

iToad:
Where I work, the number of women working as programmers has dropped off a lot. Way back in the day (the 1970s - 1980s), it was not unusual to see programming shops with up to half the staff being women. Today, not so much.

Back in the 70's and 80's they taught COBOL in business school.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Some damn Yank:
operagost:
The Great Lobachevsky:
There's only a difference if you happen to talk like Paula Deen.
Have you heard that lady say, "spiral ham"? SPAAGHRAL oh how I wanted to punch her through the TV.
I had a home-ec teacher who said "parmeesian" and "ingreedienses". Made me question everything else she taught us.
Captcha: acsi - computer code for dyslexics.

That's the part that would make me question anything she taught.

lucidfox · 2011-08-24 Reply Admin

annoyed guy:
plaidfluff:
Jesus Christ, people, women are human beings, not slabs of meat.
I'll stop looking at women like they're slabs of meat when women stop looking at me like I'm an overflowing bank vault.

Get out of the feeder, troll.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

lucidfox:
I think you're missing the point... Many of the comments here are sexist in their own right ("TRWTF is women", "What did you get up your cunt?", etc.)

I think it's pretty obvious that you're the one missing the point of those comments.

And what was sexist about the original article again? Both of them seemed to underline negative behaviors of men. It seemed to me that the portrayals of men were negative and the portrayals of women were neutral or positive. If there's sexism, it's a negative sexist stereotype of men, not women.

And the sexism of the comments is just a vector to pissing people off, they could have been about VisualBasic, the motivation and effect would have been the same.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Hortical:
Anon:
Careful, your privilege is showing.
Are you saying I shouldn't flaunt the privileged reasoning capabilities of my male brain? I'll be more careful.

Ever wanted to know what sexism looks like? It looks like shouting down and belittling the other side when they bring up their concerns, and pointing out how YOU have it SO much worse. Cry me a river, little boy.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

lucidfox:
annoyed guy:
plaidfluff:
Jesus Christ, people, women are human beings, not slabs of meat.
I'll stop looking at women like they're slabs of meat when women stop looking at me like I'm an overflowing bank vault.
Women are never shallow!

Of course not.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

I like my women shallow ;)

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Hortical:
And what was sexist about the original article again? Both of them seemed to underline negative behaviors of men. It seemed to me that the portrayals of men were negative and the portrayals of women were neutral or positive. If there's sexism, it's a negative sexist stereotype of men, not women.

Original article: Women in a mostly male workforce often get unwanted attention. Sometimes it's funny, sometimes it's really not.

Comments: Mix of everything.

You: Waaahhh, it's not fair to point out real problems with other men's behavior because it's prejudiced against men!!!!

Me: Playing the world's smallest violin, just for you.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Anon:
Ever wanted to know what sexism looks like? It looks like shouting down and belittling the other side when they bring up their concerns, and pointing out how YOU have it SO much worse. Cry me a river, little boy.

I don't have it worse. But my position is not the result of any arbitrary privilege afforded only to males. I see women have a higher representation in schools, higher grades, opportunities specially for women, higher employment, higher average pay...

What privilege did I have?

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Matt Westwood:
These stories probably come from the US, where, from what we see in the TV we get from them, they have always had a difficult time integrating male and female social and business circles.

If you think the United States is like what you see on our TV shows, I think you need to learn to distinguish fiction from reality.

Just for example:

TV: The average policeman shoots and kills at least three or four people every week. Real life: I once saw some statistics that said that, not counting practice on the shooting range, the average policeman fires his gun about once every three years, and never kills anyone in his entire career.

TV: Buying the right model car or using the right shampoo will instantly make you irrestible to women. Real life: If only it were that easy.

TV: A handgun can fire approximately 50 bullets without reloading. A machine gun can fire pretty much forever. Real life: Most automatic pistols have magazines that hold ten to twelve bullets. The average machine gun can fire for about four seconds without reloading. The average infantryman carries enough ammo for about 30 seconds of continuous firing.

TV: The average office is filled with sexy women who come to work in provocative clothing, and co-workers routinely trade sexual banter. Real life: Maybe I just don't work for the right companies, but anyplace I've worked, that kind of thing will promptly get you a meeting with the HR department to discuss appropriate workplace behavior.

TV: Most violent crimes are committed by either brilliant but corrupt businessmen or crazed fundamentalist religious fanatics. Real life: Most violent crimes are committed by not-particularly-bright street thugs. Rich businessmen almost never commit violent crimes. (I'd theorize because they have the wealth and political power to achieve their goals in legal ways.) And you'd be hard-pressed to find more than a handful of violent crimes committed by fundamentalist extremists -- more people have been killed by environmentalist extremists than fundamentalist extremists.

TV: America is filled with beautiful and sexy women who can not only beat up any man in the room, but can beat up all the men in the room simultaneously. Real life: No such luck.

TV: About 20% of the population are homosexuals. Real life: About 2% of Americans are homosexuals.

Etc etc.

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

lucidfox:
annoyed guy:
plaidfluff:
Jesus Christ, people, women are human beings, not slabs of meat.
I'll stop looking at women like they're slabs of meat when women stop looking at me like I'm an overflowing bank vault.
Get out of the feeder, troll.

So are you volunteering yourself as troll food or brillantly "trolling" everyone by appearing as an easy target?

2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Anon:
You: Waaahhh, it's not fair to point out real problems with other men's behavior because it's prejudiced against men!!!!

I'm sorry if it came off that way. There's a trend of blaming men for women's lack of success in a given field when I see little evidence of it. I don't like having blanket blame being cast over me for something I had no part in.

Matt Westwood · 2011-08-24 Reply Admin

trtrwtf:
ObiWayneKenobi:
One of them was quite hot (... and was like 5 years older than me at the time so I wouldn't have had a shot with her anyways)

The mind boggles. Five years difference is a deal-killer in your world?

As I remember, when you're twelve it can seem a bit too much of a challenge, can't it OWK?

Matt Westwood · 2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Galapharm:
True Freedom leads to Anarchy

Only if you live near lots of dicks. I reckon there are a fair few people could have 'true freedom' without resorting to anarchy, but probably not enough.

True freedom is anarchy, surely? Or is "anarchy" one of those scarey-words they indoctrinate you into bursting into tears at when you're in first-grade?

neminem · 2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Hortical:
if men in general are terrible, why are they any worse in an unmasculine environment like IT?

The issue isn't that IT is masculine. The issue is that IT attracts nerds. Nerds who, and I will admit fully to being one of these people, I'm just not as loud about it, are not generally the most socially ept people on the planet. Take the average guy-who-sucks-at-talking-to-people (so, the average guy in IT :p), stick an attractive female in the room with him - especially one who also likes the same things he likes - and you would generally see one of two things: no talking (I generally go that way), or attempting to talk... badly.

Now, I don't think the fact that guys suck are entirely to blame for the depressing gender ratio in most computer-related fields, but it certainly doesn't help, either.

Signed, a male developer

p.s. I'm pretty sure that 2% ratio you quoted is only true if you're only counting 100% pure homosexuals that have 0 interest in women (as opposed to merely leaning strongly towards men.) Pretty sure I'd heard the "guys with at least nonzero attraction to other guys" ratio is closer to 10% or so.)

Matt Westwood · 2011-08-24 Reply Admin

Hortical:
Galapharm:
I reckon there are a fair few people could have 'true freedom' without resorting to anarchy, but probably not enough.
Oh, I think there's a great number of people with which one could build such a fair, peaceful utopia that's tolerant of new ideas and different ways of life.
But the presence of most people would screw it up, and they'd want in once they saw how nice it was. So you'd have to build walls and guns and guards and have strict laws about who's allowed in and remove anyone who doesn't uphold the utopia and the people in this utopia would end up being much more well-off than the people outside and they'll banging on the walls...

Whoops.

We've already got one of those in the world, I think it's called "orstrilea" or something like that. Been trying to find out where it is, sounds real cool.

Matt Westwood · 2011-08-24 Reply Admin

neminem:
Hortical:
if men in general are terrible, why are they any worse in an unmasculine environment like IT?
The issue isn't that IT is masculine. The issue is that IT attracts nerds. Nerds who, and I will admit fully to being one of these people, I'm just not as loud about it, are not generally the most socially ept people on the planet. Take the average guy-who-sucks-at-talking-to-people (so, the average guy in IT :p), stick an attractive female in the room with him - especially one who also likes the same things he likes - and you would generally see one of two things: no talking (I generally go that way), or attempting to talk... badly.
Now, I don't think the fact that guys suck are entirely to blame for the depressing gender ratio in most computer-related fields, but it certainly doesn't help, either.

Signed, a male developer

p.s. I'm pretty sure that 2% ratio you quoted is only true if you're only counting 100% pure homosexuals that have 0 interest in women (as opposed to merely leaning strongly towards men.) Pretty sure I'd heard the "guys with at least nonzero attraction to other guys" ratio is closer to 10% or so.)

A serious post for once in which I am going to try not to cause deliberately gratuitous offence ...

The real WTF is that neither party in this social encounter can get past this awkwardness. "Society" thinks it's funny and out of that collective amusement (let's face it, laughing at aspies is even funnier than laughing at retards, he says with bitter irony) comes a stereotype that causes your averagely socially-adjusted woman to have a knee-jerk reaction along the lines of "Gross! eeeew! A nerd!" because of memories of the head cheerleader and her squad giving her a bog-wash because she smiled at the awkward-but-nice kid who always had his head in a book that looked fascinating.

The women who actually manage to break through this destructive bit of social engineering tend to find that the nerd they've pulled makes an excellent life partner for many reasons.

I have no answer for any of the above than to suggest it's all a bit unfortunate and sad (except for that last paragraph).

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