The Raybinator, Copy & Paste Error, and Yes I Do

  • Josephus 2010-05-11 09:02
    Ika B - regular contributor?
  • Lorne Kates 2010-05-11 09:06
    I'm not sure why she didn't think that maybe, just maybe, the documentation team might recognize their own documentation.


    Because even the doc team doesn't RTFM?
  • highphilosopher 2010-05-11 09:06
    Anyone else notice in the documentation section that the person copied to doc with spelling errors? Does this mean the doc team put spelling errors in their doc on their website?
  • Anon 2010-05-11 09:09
    Really Ray? Did you have to tell Steve's boss that you thought Steve was an idiot? The boss apparently didn't seem to care, but still.
    If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.
  • Anon 2010-05-11 09:11
    Gasp!!! You mean that there are spleling erorrs psotsed on the wbe? Nxte yer goign to tlel me taht smoe of waht is poseted on teh web is not accucrate.
  • Anonymous 2010-05-11 09:12
    Anon:
    Really Ray? Did you have to tell Steve's boss that you thought Steve was an idiot? The boss apparently didn't seem to care, but still.
    If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

    Honesty is the best policy. A "white" lie is still a lie.
  • The Real Jason 2010-05-11 09:22
    "Surprisingly I got an interview the following week and turned up on the day in the usual straight-out-of-school ill-fitting suit"

    Oh yes I remember those suits well, I still can never decide when I should wear a suit or not to an interview, I mean in IT (programmer specifically) should we wear a suit or is a standard blue collar and a tie acceptable?


    ""Yes we were at school together", said I."
    Is Ray a pirate?
  • runfaraway 2010-05-11 09:28
    YOU'RE A GREAT BIG IDIOT!!! GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE AND GET BACK TO WORK! HAHAHAHAHA
  • Anon 2010-05-11 09:35
    The Real Jason:
    "Surprisingly I got an interview the following week and turned up on the day in the usual straight-out-of-school ill-fitting suit"

    Oh yes I remember those suits well, I still can never decide when I should wear a suit or not to an interview, I mean in IT (programmer specifically) should we wear a suit or is a standard blue collar and a tie acceptable?


    Always wear a suit.
  • Drew 2010-05-11 09:40
    Was I the only one expecting a marriage joke for the last one?
  • JamesQMurphy 2010-05-11 09:41
    Anon:
    The Real Jason:
    "Surprisingly I got an interview the following week and turned up on the day in the usual straight-out-of-school ill-fitting suit"

    Oh yes I remember those suits well, I still can never decide when I should wear a suit or not to an interview, I mean in IT (programmer specifically) should we wear a suit or is a standard blue collar and a tie acceptable?


    Always wear a suit.


    And for $deity's sake, check your appearance in a mirror and brush your teeth.
  • DeaDPooL 2010-05-11 09:43
    The Real Jason:

    Oh yes I remember those suits well, I still can never decide when I should wear a suit or not to an interview, I mean in IT (programmer specifically) should we wear a suit or is a standard blue collar and a tie acceptable?


    I go with the suit and open collar. Ties are for people that don't do real work!


    CAPTCHA: nimis, national institute of management and information security
  • amischiefr 2010-05-11 09:44
    Lorne Kates:
    I'm not sure why she didn't think that maybe, just maybe, the documentation team might recognize their own documentation.


    Because even the doc team doesn't RTFM?

    Of course not, they WTFM, duh...
  • Swedish tard 2010-05-11 09:45
    Anon:
    The Real Jason:
    "Surprisingly I got an interview the following week and turned up on the day in the usual straight-out-of-school ill-fitting suit"

    Oh yes I remember those suits well, I still can never decide when I should wear a suit or not to an interview, I mean in IT (programmer specifically) should we wear a suit or is a standard blue collar and a tie acceptable?


    Always wear a suit.


    I've never worn a suit to an interview. (I ever only wear suits to funerals.) I have never quite seen the impact a suit would have on my work as a programmer, and hoestly would rather not work at a place where cloth is seen as a vital component to programming. Also, the only programmers I ever see wearing suits around here are consultants. And thats like 2 out of 150 consultant programmers anyway. :)
  • SR 2010-05-11 10:07
    Lorne Kates:
    Because even the doc team doesn't RTFM?


    Win!
  • ClutchDude 2010-05-11 10:09
    DeaDPooL:
    The Real Jason:

    Oh yes I remember those suits well, I still can never decide when I should wear a suit or not to an interview, I mean in IT (programmer specifically) should we wear a suit or is a standard blue collar and a tie acceptable?


    I go with the suit and open collar. Ties are for people that don't do real work!


    CAPTCHA: nimis, national institute of management and information security


    I've been thinking about rocking the open collar at the next interview I go to. I think the suit is nice, but would nix tie unless I'm expected to meet with folks who make a lot more than I do regularly.
  • SR 2010-05-11 10:10
    Swedish tard:
    I've never worn a suit to an interview. (I ever only wear suits to funerals.) I have never quite seen the impact a suit would have on my work as a programmer, and hoestly would rather not work at a place where cloth is seen as a vital component to programming. Also, the only programmers I ever see wearing suits around here are consultants. And thats like 2 out of 150 consultant programmers anyway. :)


    I do wear a suit to interviews.

    Having to wear a suit day in, day out would make me less likely to want a job but I see no harm in showing a prospective employer that I can scrub up ok if needed.
  • Jurgen 2010-05-11 10:13
    I don't even have a suit!
  • mrs_helm 2010-05-11 10:14
    It's not to show that cloth is vital to programming. It is to display that you are capable of showing respect for the company and the people to whom you will be reporting, and that you are capable of conforming to social norms for specific situations. It might not have prevented you from getting a job thus far, but it certainly can't hurt.

    You may think you do not want to work for someone who makes those kinds of judgements, but in reality everyone does, and you're only hurting yourself by refusing to play the system.

    Same goes for those with tattoos and piercings. Hide them for interviews, if possible.
  • Airdrik 2010-05-11 10:20
    Where I work, we tell interview candidates specifically to not show up in a suit as they will be horribly overdressed (and unduly uncomfortable), as compared to the rest of us who are all in t-shirt and jeans (sometimes even shorts in the summer). Not that where I work is some garage shop, but that we promote a comfortable, relaxed atmosphere that is not constrained by unnecessary hassles like suits and ties.
  • Dank 2010-05-11 10:22
    I once had an interview very similar to the third one. I came in a little early and the boss who was still busy, so instead of just having me wait, he detailed two of the junior programmers to ask me some questions about Java. I knew most, but got stumped on some (like why you need to extend an interface in an abstract class declaration instead of implement). They kindly explained the answers. Then, once the boss came in and asked me the exact same questions, I now knew all the them down pat.
  • Kensey 2010-05-11 10:23
    I never wear a full suit to an interview. Not just because I hate working in a suit, but because I have a hard time finding suits that a) fit, b) are comfortable and c) don't cost a ridiculous amount of money for a few square yards of cotton.

    Normal office wear for me is a polo shirt, khakis, white socks, nice shoes (this is an upgrade from my Bubble-era-typical t-shirt and jeans). For interviews I upgrade normal wear to a button-up shirt with nice socks.

    Last time I went out job-hunting, I went out on three rounds of interviews and had an offer reasonably quickly, and that even with breaking the rule of "don't bring coffee in with you".

    My object is generally to accurately reflect what they'll see when I'm at work, so we can both avoid "bad fit" situations, while making it clear that I care enough about the interview to do a little extra.
  • Tom 2010-05-11 10:25
    It's obvious that the first story was written by a British-English speaker. That's why some of you are confused.
  • Whiskey, Eh? 2010-05-11 10:29
    mrs_helm:
    It's not to show that cloth is vital to programming. It is to display that you are capable of showing respect for the company and the people to whom you will be reporting, and that you are capable of conforming to social norms for specific situations.


    My company does work for government and military clients, so occasionally people have to dress up for presentations and meetings with the customer. As a coder fairly low down the totem pole, I've only been asked to give a short presentation in one of these meetings, but I did have to dress up nicely for it.

    As for the copy/paste error, that reminds me of the time I was hired by my graduate professor to mark co-op work term reports. Students had to write a 5-10 page report about the company they were working for and the project they were working on. One student's report in particular seemed awfully familiar. I had worked at the same company in the past, on the same product lines, and had previously read both the internal documentation and the press releases. I started Googling phrases and marking down which paragraphs were copy/pasted... it turned out to be about 80% of the document.
  • Markp 2010-05-11 10:30
    Good to see that Ray at least got a job as a technical writer.
  • Ori 2010-05-11 10:31
    "You may think you do not want to work for someone who makes those kinds of judgements, but in reality everyone does, and you're only hurting yourself by refusing to play the system."

    What makes you so sure? I really don't want to work for a company where that would be a hiring consideration. After doing this for 20 years, I know pretty well what I'm looking for, I have solid reasons for my preferences, and I'm perfectly happy with how it worked out for me.

    You can't be outstanding if you don't stand out.
  • (username *me) 2010-05-11 10:32
    Jurgen:
    I don't even have a suit!


    That phrasing makes me think you've worn one....

    Not only can I say I don't and have not owned a suit, but I can say(honest to god) that I haven't even worn one!


    Go rent a tux sell-out!
  • Remy Porter 2010-05-11 10:43
    I wore a suit to a baseball game on Friday, so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies.

    I wore it simply because I wanted to, because it looks good on me, and it's comfortable. I understand that many people, especially IT folks, see clothes as something more functional and less decorative, but I think that's a really sad attitude. Clothes are fun, and suits are just one of those great things to have and wear, especially when you find a suit that looks good on you and fits well.

    Also: hats. People really need to wear nice hats.
  • Markp 2010-05-11 10:46
    Dank:
    he detailed two of the junior programmers to ask me some questions about Java. I knew most, but got stumped on some (like why you need to extend an interface in an abstract class declaration instead of implement).


    Easy to get stumped on that one, since it's simply not true.
  • Sean 2010-05-11 10:47
    Absolutely! Thank you for this comment - there's so much more peace in knowing the truth, even if it hurts.
  • DOA 2010-05-11 10:47
    Remy Porter:
    I wore a suit to a baseball game on Friday, so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies.

    I wore it simply because I wanted to, because it looks good on me, and it's comfortable. I understand that many people, especially IT folks, see clothes as something more functional and less decorative, but I think that's a really sad attitude. Clothes are fun, and suits are just one of those great things to have and wear, especially when you find a suit that looks good on you and fits well.

    Also: hats. People really need to wear nice hats.
    I agree. In fact you should go for a tophat. And if you're really fashion conscious you should get one of those pocket watches with the chain that hangs out of your pocket. You'll know you're there when you hear people mumbling about monopoly when they pass you on the street.
  • Sean 2010-05-11 10:48
    Anonymous:
    Anon:
    Really Ray? Did you have to tell Steve's boss that you thought Steve was an idiot? The boss apparently didn't seem to care, but still.
    If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

    Honesty is the best policy. A "white" lie is still a lie.


    Apparently I didn't quote the comment I was agreeing with, so here it is.
  • FuBar 2010-05-11 10:49
    If you want to proceed up the ladder, make sure you dress and communicate like the people one step above you. Eventually they may see you as a member of their tribe (we are still primates, after all) or at least their comfort level with you will increase which greatly increases your chances of joining their tribe.

    For a job interview it doesn't hurt to dress and communicate one level higher than that, since interviewers tend to make (conscious or unconscious) value judgements about people who look and talk like they don't fit in.

    First impressions count, people, and you'd be naive to think hiring decisions are made completely rationally.
  • veritas 2010-05-11 10:50
    Kensey:
    cost a ridiculous amount of money for a few square yards of cotton.


    That last bit is your problem. Few people complain about wearing a suit if they have a properly tailored silk suit on. Yeah, they cost a lot, but damn they are nice to wear.

    Suit up!
  • Iain Collins 2010-05-11 10:56
    Honesty is the best policy. A "white" lie is still a lie.

    Alas if we had to declare that we think someone else is an idiot (on principle, to avoid lies-by-omission) we'd never get anything productive done.
  • Bellinghman 2010-05-11 10:57
    Airdrik:
    Steve that I had to school with
    (intermediate quote levels snipped)

    Gramatically it may be correct, but semantically (taking the words with their accepted meanings in their context) it doesn't because the verb "to school" requires a direct object (e.g. Steve and I were schooled in programming).
    You're missing the alternative meaning of the word 'school'. It all makes much more sense if they're fish.
  • java.lang.Chris; 2010-05-11 10:58
    veritas:
    Kensey:
    cost a ridiculous amount of money for a few square yards of cotton.


    That last bit is your problem. Few people complain about wearing a suit if they have a properly tailored silk suit on. Yeah, they cost a lot, but damn they are nice to wear.

    Suit up!


    My silk Armani suit retailed for a lot, but cost me nothing - I inherited it from my grandfather. Now if only 1980's style double breasted jackets and trousers with turn ups would come back into fashion ...
  • Kensey 2010-05-11 11:00
    veritas:
    Kensey:
    cost a ridiculous amount of money for a few square yards of cotton.


    That last bit is your problem. Few people complain about wearing a suit if they have a properly tailored silk suit on. Yeah, they cost a lot, but damn they are nice to wear.

    Suit up!


    But if I'm going to rock the silk suit, I need the black tie, gold watch, diamond ring, cufflinks, stickpin, topcoat, top hat, black shades, and white gloves to be a sharp-dressed man. Not to mention, I imagine a silk suit fares poorly in a typical IT environment.
  • Frunobulax 2010-05-11 11:00
    Did anyone else imagine the interviewer from 'The Raybinator' being Brian Blessed?
  • Matt 2010-05-11 11:00
    So what was the prostitute joke?
  • Jamie 2010-05-11 11:01
    Dank:
    I once had an interview very similar to the third one. I came in a little early and the boss who was still busy, so instead of just having me wait, he detailed two of the junior programmers to ask me some questions about Java. I knew most, but got stumped on some (like why you need to extend an interface in an abstract class declaration instead of implement). They kindly explained the answers. Then, once the boss came in and asked me the exact same questions, I now knew all the them down pat.


    Out of interest, to satisfy my curiosity, why do you need to extend an interface in an abstract class declaration instead of implement?
  • Markp 2010-05-11 11:05
    Jamie:
    Out of interest, to satisfy my curiosity, why do you need to extend an interface in an abstract class declaration instead of implement?


    You don't, and indeed can't (in Java).

    Perhaps he was instead asked "why do you need to extend an abstract class and implement an interface?"
  • Paula 2010-05-11 11:05
    1.) Wear shitty suit.
    2.) ?????
    3.) Profit!
  • JD 2010-05-11 11:05
    I think you mean extend an interface from another interface, not from an abstract class.
  • Jamie 2010-05-11 11:06
    veritas:
    Kensey:
    cost a ridiculous amount of money for a few square yards of cotton.


    That last bit is your problem. Few people complain about wearing a suit if they have a properly tailored silk suit on. Yeah, they cost a lot, but damn they are nice to wear.

    Suit up!



    Agreed, I love wearing suits.

    At work I wear casual clothes, however, every now and then I decided to be a bit eccentric and come in wearing a suit - purely because it's comfort and looks good.
  • Remy Porter 2010-05-11 11:06
    DOA:
    I agree. In fact you should go for a tophat. And if you're really fashion conscious you should get one of those pocket watches with the chain that hangs out of your pocket. You'll know you're there when you hear people mumbling about monopoly when they pass you on the street.


    Well, you don't want to overdo it. I'm more of a fan of more fedora-type hats. I have a woolen fedora for cool weather and a white panama hat for the summer.

    I don't recommend wearing both a hat and a watch chain unless you are also wearing a waistcoat. You'll look pretentious in either case, but at least with a proper waistcoat you'll look dashingly pretentious.
  • joystickgenie 2010-05-11 11:10
    tell me I'm not the only one who read the interviewers parts from The Raybinator in the voice of J. Jonah Jameson
  • Jamie 2010-05-11 11:12
    Markp:
    Jamie:
    Out of interest, to satisfy my curiosity, why do you need to extend an interface in an abstract class declaration instead of implement?


    You don't, and indeed can't (in Java).

    Perhaps he was instead asked "why do you need to extend an abstract class and implement an interface?"


    Ah, thought as much. That makes much more sense. Thanks for the prompt response :-)
  • POUZZLER 2010-05-11 11:14
    I wasn't really aware that this site's area of interest was 'I hate Steve'. I was under the probably misguided assumption that it was about 'Curious Perversions in Information Technology'.

    Best regards,
    pouzzler
  • dubbreak 2010-05-11 11:15
    JamesQMurphy:
    Anon:
    The Real Jason:
    "Surprisingly I got an interview the following week and turned up on the day in the usual straight-out-of-school ill-fitting suit"

    Oh yes I remember those suits well, I still can never decide when I should wear a suit or not to an interview, I mean in IT (programmer specifically) should we wear a suit or is a standard blue collar and a tie acceptable?


    Always wear a suit.


    And for $deity's sake, check your appearance in a mirror and brush your teeth.


    $deity YES. Greasy ponytail, jeans and a hooded sweatshirt are not acceptable. Breath like a dragon, while intimidating, will not help secure a job.

    We just had an applicant that appeared as though he just rolled out of bed. The rest of the interview was a formality and was kept as short as possible. Our standards aren't high, but we expect you to shower before an interview and maintain at least a remedial level of personal hygiene.
  • Boss 2010-05-11 11:16
    Wearing a suit to an interview has little to do with how good you look or how formal you can be, it is about showing how much you want the job.



    Anyway... When do we get to hear the prostitute joke? That's the only reason I kept reading. Anyone got one?
  • wtf 2010-05-11 11:23
    [quote user="veritas"][quote user="Kensey"] cost a ridiculous amount of money for a few square yards of cotton.
    [/quote]

    ... Yeah, they cost a lot, but damn they are nice to wear.

    quote]

    And of course, "cost a lot" is a large part of the point. You're signalling that
    [a] you're in a position to have a few yards of cloth made into a decoration, for no purpose other than to signify that [a],
    and [b] that you are willing and able to conform to a silly societal requirement in order to demonstrate that [b]
  • Remy Porter 2010-05-11 11:27
    Or (c), you appreciate well made, comfortable clothes that will last and look good on you because you prize a well-dressed appearance.

    I know that I'm old fashioned, but I always boggle at people who wear t-shirts outside of their house. If it doesn't have a collar, it's not a shirt- it's an undershirt.
  • Markp 2010-05-11 11:29
    Boss:
    Anyway... When do we get to hear the prostitute joke? ... Anyone got one?

    What did the prostitute say when she walked into a bar?


    ANSWER>>Ouch!<<ANSWER
  • da Doctah 2010-05-11 11:36
    Whiskey, Eh?:
    As for the copy/paste error, that reminds me of the time I was hired by my graduate professor to mark co-op work term reports. Students had to write a 5-10 page report about the company they were working for and the project they were working on. One student's report in particular seemed awfully familiar. I had worked at the same company in the past, on the same product lines, and had previously read both the internal documentation and the press releases. I started Googling phrases and marking down which paragraphs were copy/pasted... it turned out to be about 80% of the document.


    To give the kid the benefit of the doubt, maybe he was the one who had written the press releases in the first place.
  • Whiskey, Eh? 2010-05-11 11:43
    da Doctah:

    To give the kid the benefit of the doubt, maybe he was the one who had written the press releases in the first place.


    Good thought, but no, I had read these documents back when I worked at the company in 2001, and I was re-reading them in his report written in 2004.
  • Ziplodocus 2010-05-11 11:47




    [a] you're in a position to have a few yards of cloth made into a decoration, for no purpose other than to signify that [a],
    and [b] that you are willing and able to conform to a silly societal requirement in order to demonstrate that [b]


    First rule of tautology club...

    Pretty much, you are prostituting yourself in a job interview. You're demonstrating, to the best of your abilities, that you're willing to be f*cked in the a$$ regularly in order to recieve money...

    ...or is that just where I work
  • Whiskey, Eh? 2010-05-11 11:47
    Jamie:

    Agreed, I love wearing suits.

    At work I wear casual clothes, however, every now and then I decided to be a bit eccentric and come in wearing a suit - purely because it's comfort and looks good.


    One of my summer jobs in university was being a leader at their computer day camp. One of the kids, an 11-year-old, wore a little suit and tie. Every day. With sandals. And he knew more about Linux than I did at the time.

    I sometimes wonder where he ended up. I bet anything he's making more money than I am now. :P
  • Dank 2010-05-11 12:09
    Markp:
    Dank:
    he detailed two of the junior programmers to ask me some questions about Java. I knew most, but got stumped on some (like why you need to extend an interface in an abstract class declaration instead of implement).


    Easy to get stumped on that one, since it's simply not true.


    You're right, what I meant was that when declaring a generic that must implement an interface, the keyword is extends an not implements. For example, when making a heap of Comparables, you need

    class Heap<T extends Comparable<T>

    instead of

    class Heap<T implements Comparable<T>

    As for the reason, I've since forgotten it.
  • frits 2010-05-11 12:18
    Kensey:
    veritas:
    Kensey:
    cost a ridiculous amount of money for a few square yards of cotton.


    That last bit is your problem. Few people complain about wearing a suit if they have a properly tailored silk suit on. Yeah, they cost a lot, but damn they are nice to wear.

    Suit up!


    But if I'm going to rock the silk suit, I need the black tie, gold watch, diamond ring, cufflinks, stickpin, topcoat, top hat, black shades, and white gloves to be a sharp-dressed man. Not to mention, I imagine a silk suit fares poorly in a typical IT environment.


    Don't forget the monocle.
  • usitas 2010-05-11 12:23
    Boss:
    Wearing a suit to an interview has little to do with how good you look or how formal you can be, it is about showing how much you want the job.



    Anyway... When do we get to hear the prostitute joke? That's the only reason I kept reading. Anyone got one?


    What's the difference between a Ferrari and a dead hooker?


    I don't have a Ferrari in my garage.
  • usitas 2010-05-11 12:25
    Jamie:
    veritas:
    Kensey:
    cost a ridiculous amount of money for a few square yards of cotton.


    That last bit is your problem. Few people complain about wearing a suit if they have a properly tailored silk suit on. Yeah, they cost a lot, but damn they are nice to wear.

    Suit up!



    Agreed, I love wearing suits.

    At work I wear casual clothes, however, every now and then I decided to be a bit eccentric and come in wearing a suit - purely because it's comfort and looks good.


    This probably doesn't look great from your manager's perspective.

    Wearing a suit out of the blue usually makes people think you're interviewing elsewhere.
  • veritas 2010-05-11 12:25
    Jamie:

    Agreed, I love wearing suits.

    At work I wear casual clothes, however, every now and then I decided to be a bit eccentric and come in wearing a suit - purely because it's comfort and looks good.


    At my current employer, wearing a suit is a fun way to mess with your co-workers because here there are only two reasons non-execs wear a suit to work:
    1) they are leaving early to go to a funeral or
    2) they are leaving early to go to an interview
    Once you've made it clear that you are not going to a funeral they start worrying about how the heck they are going to replace you.

    Of course this only works if you are in an area where number of job applicants is much less than the number of job openings - because if the reverse is true the joke will be on you.
  • Ziplodocus 2010-05-11 12:26
    Did you hear about the dyslexic prostitute who went for a job interview at a warehouse?
  • germinator 2010-05-11 12:31
    dubbreak:

    $deity YES. Greasy ponytail, jeans and a hooded sweatshirt are not acceptable. Breath like a dragon, while intimidating, will not help secure a job.

    We just had an applicant that appeared as though he just rolled out of bed. The rest of the interview was a formality and was kept as short as possible. Our standards aren't high, but we expect you to shower before an interview and maintain at least a remedial level of personal hygiene.

    You know I really think the suit is a bit of a red herring here. It of course varies from place to place (and from job to job), but I would normally not wear a suit to an interview. I would however wear my nicer clothes and make sure my teeth are brushed etc. Like what I would think any reasonable person does, even the ones on here who don't wear suits.

    The thing is, when you don't at least make an effort to make yourself presentable, it signals to the interviewer that you don't want the job. And that you will show up for work looking (and smelling? eww) like that every day. I know I'd kick you out of my office soon as you could say "deodorant".

    (disclaimer: I've only ever been to 4 job interviews and only ever been turned down once, when I was 16, so YMMV)
  • Massive Debt 2010-05-11 12:37
    Ziplodocus:
    Did you hear about the dyslexic prostitute who went for a job interview at a warehouse?


    She must be German, since "warehouse" is an anagram for "wore-haus(e)".
  • Jay 2010-05-11 12:42
    Swedish tard:

    I've never worn a suit to an interview. (I ever only wear suits to funerals.) I have never quite seen the impact a suit would have on my work as a programmer, and hoestly would rather not work at a place where cloth is seen as a vital component to programming.


    I guess it's a question of what you consider a deal-breaker. If a company offered me a job that was doing something I loved, paid good money, etc etc, but I would have to wear a suit to work every day, I can't imagine that I would turn it down because of that. Sure, it's difficult to see how wearing a suit would make me a better programmer, but if that's the standard there, so what? So when I go on an interview ... well, I don't actually wear a suit anymore, but I at least wear a sport coat and a tie. No point sabotaguing myself. If for you being required to wear a suit would just be unacceptable, and you would not take such a job no matter what other advantages it offerred, then sure, don't wear a suit to the interview and you can avoid wrong impressions.
  • Jay 2010-05-11 12:43
    I once bought a new suit, and so the next day I wore it to work because, hey, I just bought it, might as well wear it at least once or twice. My boss took me aside and quietly asked me if I was going on a job interview.
  • Plz Send Me The Code 2010-05-11 12:49
    wear a suit around town during your normal errands for a couple days and see how differently people treat you.
  • ContraCorners 2010-05-11 12:51
    Ziplodocus:




    [a] you're in a position to have a few yards of cloth made into a decoration, for no purpose other than to signify that [a],
    and [b] that you are willing and able to conform to a silly societal requirement in order to demonstrate that [b]


    First rule of tautology club...

    Pretty much, you are prostituting yourself in a job interview. You're demonstrating, to the best of your abilities, that you're willing to be f*cked in the a$$ regularly in order to recieve money...

    ...or is that just where I work

    Shite! You mean that was the prostitute joke?
  • Can't Post Guy 2010-05-11 12:58
    Kensey:
    Last time I went out job-hunting, I went out on three rounds of interviews and had an offer reasonably quickly, and that even with breaking the rule of "don't bring coffee in with you".


    From the article:
    Do not have bare legs. You should always have sock or stockings during an interview.


    I'm not sure my wife would appreciate it if I would start dressing up with her clothes...

    PS: Will I be able to make a post with first try? The suspension (pun intended) is killing me!
  • Can't Post Guy 2010-05-11 12:59
    Can't Post Guy:
    PS: Will I be able to make a post with first try? The suspension (pun intended) is killing me!


    Well waddayaknow, hell must have frozen over.
  • HaHa Funny 2010-05-11 13:13
    What did the Leper say to the prostitute?

    Keep the tip.
  • ComputerForumUser 2010-05-11 13:19
    Kensey:
    For some reason that article mentions not wearing a hat twice. Maybe wearing a hat is twice as bad as any of the others.
  • Markp 2010-05-11 13:20
    Dank:
    you need

    class Heap<T extends Comparable<T>

    instead of

    class Heap<T implements Comparable<T>

    Ah, yes. That is unintuitive.

    As for the reason, I've since forgotten it.

    Often, the only reason worth remembering is "because that's how the language designers made it."
  • Steve 2010-05-11 13:23
    Barney? Barney Stinson?
  • Remy Porter 2010-05-11 13:29
    If one wears a hat, one should not wear the hat indoors. That's really what they should have said. Unless your interview is in the park, the hat should be off your head by the time you're meeting your interviewer.
  • Carl 2010-05-11 13:30
    The Real Jason:
    I still can never decide when I should wear a suit or not to an interview

    It's easy. If you want to spend the rest of your life choking in a hot expensive garment that's just going to get ruined when they ask you to string some cables, wear a suit. On the other hand if you want to make sure you don't end up working someplace where they judge everything by appearance, don't wear the suit.

    People who only care if it "looks good" and not whether it "is good" are what's wrong with this industry... correction... the whole world.
  • ARMed but harmless 2010-05-11 13:30
    Anon:

    Always wear a suit.


    And glasses. Be the mild mannered software at day, so that no supects your secret identity!
  • wtf 2010-05-11 13:32
    Markp:
    Dank:
    you need

    class Heap<T extends Comparable<T>

    instead of

    class Heap<T implements Comparable<T>

    Ah, yes. That is unintuitive.

    As for the reason, I've since forgotten it.

    Often, the only reason worth remembering is "because that's how the language designers made it."


    While I haven't played with generics much, I would assume it's because T is itself treated as an interface, rather than as an abstract class, and interfaces extend other interfaces, they do not implement them.

    Why do interfaces extend interfaces, rather than implementing them? Because implementing requires fulfilling the interface's contract, and an interface is not allowed to do that, because it can't have method bodies. So it has to extend.

    Although, now that I think of it, abstract classes can implement interfaces, can't they?
    Hm...
  • GalacticCowboy 2010-05-11 13:35
    FuBar:
    If you want to proceed up the ladder, make sure you dress and communicate like the people one step above you. Eventually they may see you as a member of their tribe (we are still primates, after all) or at least their comfort level with you will increase which greatly increases your chances of joining their tribe.


    Though you'll probably want to avoid any mention of shared grooming until after you have the offer in hand.
  • ARMed but harmless 2010-05-11 13:35
    Remy Porter:


    Also: hats. People really need to wear nice hats.


    Yes. Especially IT guys should wear them. Pointy hats with silver stars. After all, they are considered to be wizards.
  • Carl 2010-05-11 13:38
    Boss:
    Wearing a suit to an interview has little to do with how good you look or how formal you can be, it is about showing how much you want the job.

    Agreed. And I don't want the job that much. If I'm interviewing at the right place, they want me.
  • ARMed but harmless 2010-05-11 13:38
    ARMed but harmless:
    Anon:

    Always wear a suit.


    And glasses. Be the mild mannered software at day, so that no supects your secret identity!


    software engineer
  • Remy Porter 2010-05-11 13:39
    wtf:

    Although, now that I think of it, abstract classes can implement interfaces, can't they?
    Hm...


    Ah, but any un-implemented interface methods have to be declared as part of the abstract class and implemented by any concrete children. So you're safe.
  • AuMatar 2010-05-11 13:42
    mrs_helm:
    It's not to show that cloth is vital to programming. It is to display that you are capable of showing respect for the company and the people to whom you will be reporting, and that you are capable of conforming to social norms for specific situations. It might not have prevented you from getting a job thus far, but it certainly can't hurt.

    You may think you do not want to work for someone who makes those kinds of judgements, but in reality everyone does, and you're only hurting yourself by refusing to play the system.

    Same goes for those with tattoos and piercings. Hide them for interviews, if possible.


    Absolutely worng in every respect. I interview programmers all the time. I don't care about tats or piercings, and if someone shows up in a suit it worries me- I've never seen someone who shows up in a suit be any good. Usually the people who worry about dressing to impress do so because they don't have the skills to impress.

    Furthermore, when I was interviewing out of college everyplace I interviewed at told me not to wear one- several engineers telling me outright I'd be laughed at. And they're right- they are.
  • Stephen Cleary 2010-05-11 13:49
    DOA:
    Remy Porter:
    I wore a suit to a baseball game on Friday, so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies.

    I wore it simply because I wanted to, because it looks good on me, and it's comfortable. I understand that many people, especially IT folks, see clothes as something more functional and less decorative, but I think that's a really sad attitude. Clothes are fun, and suits are just one of those great things to have and wear, especially when you find a suit that looks good on you and fits well.

    Also: hats. People really need to wear nice hats.
    I agree. In fact you should go for a tophat. And if you're really fashion conscious you should get one of those pocket watches with the chain that hangs out of your pocket. You'll know you're there when you hear people mumbling about monopoly when they pass you on the street.
    In spite of the sarcasm, I actually have a pocket watch on a chain, which I really like. I also enjoy wearing suits (though I do not wear them to work). Ties are not as great but they really can complete the outfit.

    I have also seriously considered buying a top hat. It would just be so cool!
  • Dave 2010-05-11 13:49
    I think a lot of this suit talk simply depends on what region/industry you're interviewing in.
  • usitas 2010-05-11 13:49
    AuMatar:
    mrs_helm:
    It's not to show that cloth is vital to programming. It is to display that you are capable of showing respect for the company and the people to whom you will be reporting, and that you are capable of conforming to social norms for specific situations. It might not have prevented you from getting a job thus far, but it certainly can't hurt.

    You may think you do not want to work for someone who makes those kinds of judgements, but in reality everyone does, and you're only hurting yourself by refusing to play the system.

    Same goes for those with tattoos and piercings. Hide them for interviews, if possible.


    Absolutely worng in every respect. I interview programmers all the time. I don't care about tats or piercings, and if someone shows up in a suit it worries me- I've never seen someone who shows up in a suit be any good. Usually the people who worry about dressing to impress do so because they don't have the skills to impress.

    Furthermore, when I was interviewing out of college everyplace I interviewed at told me not to wear one- several engineers telling me outright I'd be laughed at. And they're right- they are.


    This is why I stopped wearing suits unless the recruiter specifically says that I should wear one.
  • wtf 2010-05-11 13:51
    Remy Porter:
    wtf:

    Although, now that I think of it, abstract classes can implement interfaces, can't they?
    Hm...


    Ah, but any un-implemented interface methods have to be declared as part of the abstract class and implemented by any concrete children. So you're safe.


    That's right. So my explanation doesn't work - interface methods are abstract, internally, by definition, even if they're not explicitly declared abstract. So for an interface to implement an interface would be fine from that standpoint.

    Maybe it's just that the designers thought the logic worked better this way. "An interface can't implement an interface, because an interface can't implement. So we say it extends, and it does the same thing as implementing".
  • Buddy 2010-05-11 13:58
    runfaraway:
    YOU'RE A GREAT BIG IDIOT!!! GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE AND GET BACK TO WORK! HAHAHAHAHA


    I predict we'll be seeing this a lot in the near future.

    Now stop wasting time and get back to work you useless bags of guts.
  • Winston Chang 2010-05-11 14:00
    I think the reason is that T can extend/implement multiple classes/interfaces, and the syntax would be <T extends Object & Runnable & Comparable<T>>, so they chose to have 1 keyword for it rather than 2.
  • Winston Chang 2010-05-11 14:00
    usitas:
    AuMatar:
    mrs_helm:
    It's not to show that cloth is vital to programming. It is to display that you are capable of showing respect for the company and the people to whom you will be reporting, and that you are capable of conforming to social norms for specific situations. It might not have prevented you from getting a job thus far, but it certainly can't hurt.

    You may think you do not want to work for someone who makes those kinds of judgements, but in reality everyone does, and you're only hurting yourself by refusing to play the system.

    Same goes for those with tattoos and piercings. Hide them for interviews, if possible.


    Absolutely worng in every respect. I interview programmers all the time. I don't care about tats or piercings, and if someone shows up in a suit it worries me- I've never seen someone who shows up in a suit be any good. Usually the people who worry about dressing to impress do so because they don't have the skills to impress.

    Furthermore, when I was interviewing out of college everyplace I interviewed at told me not to wear one- several engineers telling me outright I'd be laughed at. And they're right- they are.


    This is why I stopped wearing suits unless the recruiter specifically says that I should wear one.


    I think the reason is that T can extend/implement multiple classes/interfaces, and the syntax would be <T extends Object & Runnable & Comparable<T>>, so they chose to have 1 keyword for it rather than 2.
  • usitas 2010-05-11 14:04
    Winston Chang:
    usitas:
    AuMatar:
    mrs_helm:
    It's not to show that cloth is vital to programming. It is to display that you are capable of showing respect for the company and the people to whom you will be reporting, and that you are capable of conforming to social norms for specific situations. It might not have prevented you from getting a job thus far, but it certainly can't hurt.

    You may think you do not want to work for someone who makes those kinds of judgements, but in reality everyone does, and you're only hurting yourself by refusing to play the system.

    Same goes for those with tattoos and piercings. Hide them for interviews, if possible.


    Absolutely worng in every respect. I interview programmers all the time. I don't care about tats or piercings, and if someone shows up in a suit it worries me- I've never seen someone who shows up in a suit be any good. Usually the people who worry about dressing to impress do so because they don't have the skills to impress.

    Furthermore, when I was interviewing out of college everyplace I interviewed at told me not to wear one- several engineers telling me outright I'd be laughed at. And they're right- they are.


    This is why I stopped wearing suits unless the recruiter specifically says that I should wear one.


    I think the reason is that T can extend/implement multiple classes/interfaces, and the syntax would be <T extends Object & Runnable & Comparable<T>>, so they chose to have 1 keyword for it rather than 2.


    I partially agree, however purple monkey dishwasher.
  • BlueCollarAstronaut 2010-05-11 14:07
    I have a funny interview story.

    I work on the documentation team at my company and was tasked with bringing on a new team member. One candidate in particular stood out and did fairly well during the interviews and had decent writing samples. But she did have some strikes against her on her record – namely, jumping around between IT and non-IT jobs – and that made me question her ability to create good documentation from scratch.

    For those that do not know, documentation that goes beyond API calls and command-line regurgitation is not all that easy to write well, and poorly written overviews and "How To" documentation can be really horrible for customers.
    I express my concerns to her and asked if she'd be interesting in a writing challenge to see how well she could write technical material. She agreed, so I gave her a list of potential topics and told her to work on them over the week as a way to prove that she could write the topics well and from scratch.

    The following Monday, she turned in her work and it seemed pretty comprehensive and complete. But then I noticed something strange: there was some key terminology that she used that was not in any of the source material I had given her. Looking closer, I realized it was our old terminology used in a previous version of our software.

    Curious, I did a quick search and discovered the source: someone had posted our product’s documentation on their website, and the candidate had simply copy/pasted the entire section. She even left in the original typos and grammatical errors.

    I'm not sure why she didn't think that maybe, just maybe, the documentation team might recognize their own documentation.
  • ARMed but harmless 2010-05-11 14:19
    BlueCollarAstronaut:
    I have a funny interview story.

    I work on the documentation team at my company and was tasked with bringing on a new team member. One candidate in particular stood out and did fairly well during the interviews and had decent writing samples. But she did have some strikes against her on her record – namely, jumping around between IT and non-IT jobs – and that made me question her ability to create good documentation from scratch.

    I had to read that far to acutally get the joke. I am an great big idot. I have to get the hell out of here and get back to work.
  • Remy Porter 2010-05-11 14:28
    usitas:

    This is why I stopped wearing suits unless the recruiter specifically says that I should wear one.
    Honestly, the "right" answer is to ask what the dress code of the place is, and dress one step above that. If they're jeans and t-shirts, you wear slacks and a button-down. If they're business casual, you wear a suit. If they're suit-and-tie, you wear a very nice suit.
  • bob 2010-05-11 14:43
    What the hell is a "British-English speaker"? I think you mean an "English speaker". Presumably as opposed to one of these modern bastardised dialects.
  • usitas 2010-05-11 14:51
    Remy Porter:
    usitas:

    This is why I stopped wearing suits unless the recruiter specifically says that I should wear one.
    Honestly, the "right" answer is to ask what the dress code of the place is, and dress one step above that. If they're jeans and t-shirts, you wear slacks and a button-down. If they're business casual, you wear a suit. If they're suit-and-tie, you wear a very nice suit.


    Stop pushing your wardrobe choices on me, suitie.
  • Jeff 2010-05-11 14:56
    BlueCollarAstronaut:
    I have a funny interview story...
    So much better written than some of what we've been getting around here lately! Thanks for raising the bar.
  • Markp 2010-05-11 14:57
    Remy Porter:
    wtf:

    Although, now that I think of it, abstract classes can implement interfaces, can't they?
    Hm...


    Ah, but any un-implemented interface methods have to be declared as part of the abstract class and implemented by any concrete children. So you're safe.


    No more explicitly than an interface has to redeclare the methods of the interfaces it extends. It's just this

    public abstract class MyClass implements MyInterface {}

    vs this:

    public interface MySpecificInterface extends MyInterface {}

    They both compile regardless of the methods defined in MyInterface.
  • ObiWayneKenobi 2010-05-11 15:01
    Who was that first company? Magenta Co?! Talk about an oddball place with a kook of a boss.
  • Markp 2010-05-11 15:17
    wtf:
    Markp:
    Dank:
    you need

    class Heap<T extends Comparable<T>

    instead of

    class Heap<T implements Comparable<T>

    Ah, yes. That is unintuitive.

    As for the reason, I've since forgotten it.

    Often, the only reason worth remembering is "because that's how the language designers made it."


    While I haven't played with generics much, I would assume it's because T is itself treated as an interface, rather than as an abstract class, and interfaces extend other interfaces, they do not implement them.

    That's an interesting theory, but it breaks down when you realize that T can "extend" a class as well whereas an interface cannot.

    Myself, I think it's just due to wanting to keep it to one (already reserved) keyword and a preference in terminology. "Extends" works across the board to denote type inheritance. Since the right-hand side of "extends" in a generic specifier can be a class OR an interface, it's the more suitable choice.

    Using "implements" would make very little sense, particularly since the right-hand side can be a concrete class. It denotes fulfilling a contract, which is not what the generic operator is used for (it's used strictly for type hierarchy).
  • Ajtacka 2010-05-11 16:07
    Personally, I'd hate to work somewhere with a suit-level dress code. Why? Coz I'm a jeans-and-tshirt kinda girl. I like being able to throw on some clothes in the morning without thinking too much. And for a girl, dressing nicely does take thought. I have much better things to think about than what shoes go with that skirt or which jacket I can wear with those trousers.
  • Mike D. 2010-05-11 16:09
    So... could someone please explain what an MDE file is and why one would recoil at it? I haven't been within ten meters of Access in my life.
  • AnOldRelic 2010-05-11 16:21
    Boss:
    Wearing a suit to an interview has little to do with how good you look or how formal you can be, it is about showing how much you want the job.



    Anyway... When do we get to hear the prostitute joke? That's the only reason I kept reading. Anyone got one?


    Two hookers walk into a bar. They fall over and say "ouch."

    I'm here all night.
  • drachenstern 2010-05-11 16:31
    Mike D.:
    So... could someone please explain what an MDE file is and why one would recoil at it? I haven't been within ten meters of Access in my life.
    It's the "compiled" version of the database. However, it's important to note how Access works. Both the tables and the forms (as well as any queries or libraries) are built into the same file. So when you provide an "application" to the user, you can provide either the MDE (which does not need VB(a)'s just in time compiling) or you can provide the MDB (which allows editing of the source but must be initial-recompiled if any changes are made). The "nice thing" about MDE's is that no reverse compiling of the app is supposed to be possible.

    For the speed of modern computers, if you're really using Access for an inhouse app, there's no reason to give the MDE except to force people to use that specific interface to follow business logic.

    However, having written MDE style apps for a number of years, if I ever go back to that I think I should like to be shot instead. Food's not that important anymore...
  • Si vis pacem, para tus 2010-05-11 16:45
    JamesQMurphy:
    Anon:
    The Real Jason:
    "Surprisingly I got an interview the following week and turned up on the day in the usual straight-out-of-school ill-fitting suit"

    Oh yes I remember those suits well, I still can never decide when I should wear a suit or not to an interview, I mean in IT (programmer specifically) should we wear a suit or is a standard blue collar and a tie acceptable?


    Always wear a suit.


    And for $deity's sake, check your appearance in a mirror and brush your teeth.

    Null pointer error.
  • SQL Dave 2010-05-11 16:52
    Boss:
    Wearing a suit to an interview has little to do with how good you look or how formal you can be, it is about showing how much you want the job.



    Anyway... When do we get to hear the prostitute joke? That's the only reason I kept reading. Anyone got one?


    Guy comes home to find his wife packing (her suitcase, not a gun, nor fudge). When asked what she's doing she says "I'm moving to Vegas. I just found out that hookers there get $1000 for what I give you for free."

    She takes the suitcase to the car and comes back for her purse and sees her husband also packing (his suitcase, etc.) "What are YOU doing?!?" she demands.

    He replies "I'm moving to Vegas too. I want to see how you live on $6000 a year."
  • Zemm 2010-05-11 17:59
    Remy Porter:
    I wore a suit to a baseball game on Friday, so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies.

    I wore it simply because I wanted to, because it looks good on me, and it's comfortable. I understand that many people, especially IT folks, see clothes as something more functional and less decorative, but I think that's a really sad attitude. Clothes are fun, and suits are just one of those great things to have and wear, especially when you find a suit that looks good on you and fits well.

    Also: hats. People really need to wear nice hats.


    I think that in general women wear clothes to look pretty and men wear clothes so that they are not naked. (Of course there are exceptions to this observation)

    FWIW I have only once ever worn a suit and that was to a formal. All interviews and my wedding I was wearing a business shirt and slacks.
  • Jeff 2010-05-11 18:10
    Zemm:
    I think that in general women wear clothes to look pretty and men wear clothes so that they are not naked.

    More to the point, men wear clothes so they won't get arrested for being naked.

    Meanwhile, if women would just join us in naked freedom, they would find they don't have to work quite so hard at looking pretty.
  • Andrew in a Suit 2010-05-11 18:23
    While all you geeks are arguing about the technical merits of a piece of cloth, you have missed the point that wearing a suit is worth an extra 25% on your salary. In consultancy, you can't easily get more than a couple of hundred a day without one.
  • drachenstern 2010-05-11 18:42
    Andrew in a Suit:
    While all you geeks are arguing about the technical merits of a piece of cloth, you have missed the point that wearing a suit is worth an extra 25% on your salary. In consultancy, you can't easily get more than a couple of hundred a day without one.
    If I understand you correctly:

    50 weeks in a year (you do take a minimum of a two week vacation right?) times 5 days a week (well, consultancy, but anyways, workweek)...

    250 days in a year, divided into my current salary (meager by many standards, comfortable but not "great" by mine), results in over $200 a day. At 8 hours a day, that $200 cap is less than $25/hour.

    So remind me again how consultants will make less than that if they don't wear a suit? I wear slacks and a polo everyday...
  • Steve W. 2010-05-11 18:48
    I wouldn't want to wear a suit everyday to work either, but don't you think it's a good idea to try your hardest to win points any way you can with a first impression? If you get the job, you'll probably never have to wear a suit to that office again, but you need to get the job first.
  • fjf 2010-05-11 18:54
    ARMed but harmless:
    ARMed but harmless:
    Anon:

    Always wear a suit.


    And glasses. Be the mild mannered software at day, so that no supects your secret identity!


    software engineer

    No, actually, you are just software, like the rest of the matrix.
  • Consult This 2010-05-11 20:12
    Andrew in a Suit:
    While all you geeks are arguing about the technical merits of a piece of cloth, you have missed the point that wearing a suit is worth an extra 25% on your salary. In consultancy, you can't easily get more than a couple of hundred a day without one.
    $300 a day here, no suit since 1995.
  • Soronel Haetir 2010-05-11 20:54
    Am I the only one who got the impression that Steve and the giant boss were related, most likely father and son?
  • Some Guy 2010-05-11 21:09
    The Real Jason:
    Oh yes I remember those suits well, I still can never decide when I should wear a suit or not to an interview, I mean in IT (programmer specifically) should we wear a suit or is a standard blue collar and a tie acceptable?

    If you normally wear a suit, then wear a suit. If not, dress as well as you do when you actually care, but not a suit.

    If they say "you're not in a suit? and you seriously want to work here?" and struggle to contain their laughter, you wern't going to enjoy the job even if your ill-fitting suit pleased them. the interview will have done its less well-known job - let you decide whether or not you would accept a job offer.

    If you want to work for a bank, wear a suit, and like it.
  • Some Guy 2010-05-11 21:34
    Remy Porter:
    I know that I'm old fashioned, but I always boggle at people who wear t-shirts outside of their house. If it doesn't have a collar, it's not a shirt- it's an undershirt.

    Old fashioned? If you're wearing a suit at your age, you're a bona fide miracle of modern medical technology.

    Seriously, since Victoria was a gleam in her father's eye, "men wear suits" has been the official definition of "well dressed". Prior to then there was enormous variety, but this offended puritans like you.

    While good suits will continue to be good, in real life fashion is going to expand rather than remain a slave to Victorian puritans, and many things other than a "suit" will be popular.

    This will suck for people who can't cope with actual change in fashion and instead pray for a return to a time when fiddling with the arrangement of pockets but otherwise making a suit look like a suit from a hundred years previously was the height of fashion excitement, but eventually you're all going to die, and the rest of us will move on.

    God save the Queen!
  • Some Guy 2010-05-11 21:45
    Andrew in a Suit:
    While all you geeks are arguing about the technical merits of a piece of cloth, you have missed the point that wearing a suit is worth an extra 25% on your salary. In consultancy, you can't easily get more than a couple of hundred a day without one.

    Not only that, but as a consultant in a suit, you can get your own twice-daily postings on this site, for free!

    Honestly, in all the posts here where people wonder how a total retard even gets the job in the first place, yet alone a position of authority, an ability to look good in a suit and talk bullshit is 95% of the reason.

    A clown in a nice suit can get paid very well. But some of us are really weird fuckers, and put some importance on "actual competence" and the funny thing is that actual competence can pay really well if you find a boss who judges you on things other than your clothing.

    If you're actually competent, being rejected by a thousand monkeys in suits looking for clowns in suits is far better than working in a place full of clowns in suits.
  • Xythar 2010-05-11 21:56
    Kensey:
    Last time I went out job-hunting, I went out on three rounds of interviews and had an offer reasonably quickly, and that even with breaking the rule of "don't bring coffee in with you".


    I think the writer of that article forgot rule #16, 'When writing an article about professionalism, try to learn the difference between "your" and "you're" so that you can avoid using the wrong one 3 times in every paragraph'. I mean, c'mon.
  • Random dude 2010-05-11 22:14
    Carl:

    Agreed. And I don't want the job that much. If I'm interviewing at the right place, they want me.


    Not in my experience.
    First job was just that. They wanted me and as soon as possible. Reason was huge turnovers due to crappy work environment with horrible pay and unhealthy stress levels (even for IT).

    If you find a dream job there will be at least 5 others applicants that are equally or better skilled than you.
    You need to convince them that you're still the better option.
  • nerfer 2010-05-11 22:36
    I've stepped down to a sports jacket for the interview, and button shirt with a tie for the first day on the job (when you're likely to be introduced to the various bosses). (My wife helped me with those choices, that's a little too nuanced for an engineer like myself).

    I haven't worked in a place where my boss wore a suit (on a regular basis) ever, and I've been working since '91. On the east coast it's still a little more formal, and also at larger companies where you're working at the headquarters (where the execs are at).

    I have had to dress up for the occasional trade shows and such, so wearing good clothes shows your prospective boss you can be useful in those situations, but generally you feel really out of place in a suit getting a tour of the company on your interview.

    But honestly, being polite and speaking intelligently is the best way to land a job. If they hire people only on their looks and clothes, there's going to be too much politics at that job to make it worthwhile. Of course, the 3rd way to get hired is to have connections.
  • Self 2010-05-11 23:12
    mrs_helm:
    Same goes for those with tattoos and piercings. Hide them for interviews, if possible.


    Good tip.

    Note to self: Keep trousers on at interviews.
  • Barry J 2010-05-11 23:27
    Ajtacka:
    Personally, I'd hate to work somewhere with a suit-level dress code. Why? Coz I'm a jeans-and-tshirt kinda girl.


    OH MY GOD ITS A GIRL EVERYONE ACT NORMAL!!!!!!!!
  • anon 2010-05-12 00:10
    Barry J:
    Ajtacka:
    Personally, I'd hate to work somewhere with a suit-level dress code. Why? Coz I'm a jeans-and-tshirt kinda girl.


    OH MY GOD ITS A GIRL EVERYONE ACT NORMAL!!!!!!!!


    Win.
  • nonpartisan 2010-05-12 01:58
    drachenstern:
    It's the "compiled" version of the database. However, it's important to note how Access works. Both the tables and the forms (as well as any queries or libraries) are built into the same file.


    Just when I thought my wrists had healed . . .

    I found out once, when I was a newbie, many years back how utterly disastrous it is to keep the data and the forms in the same file. One database crash was all it took to look at sticking the forms in one file and the data in another. Didn't use the wizard (whatever the hell it was called). I just made the links myself to the backend database file.

    The other big pain-in-the-ass issue with MS Access (as if there aren't boatloads of them anyway) is that, in order to change the forms, everyone had to be out of the database so it could get an exclusive lock. Even if it was a minor code change with no change to the physical form itself, it had to have an exclusive lock which meant coordinating a time for everyone to be out of the thing. This for a busy communications center that, on the fortunate side, only had a few stations so it wasn't that bad trying to get everyone out for just a few minutes.

    I inherited this monstrosity from someone else and when I wanted to set up my own Postgres server, I was told by my manager I couldn't do it because it needed to be in the data center where it could be backed up, monitored, etc. etc. etc. We didn't get along very well with the format IT department at the time so the idea got dropped.

    The follow-up to this is that I left that position to get into networking, the person who replaced me was at it for about 6 months at which point my former manager left, then my replacement got to do whatever he wanted and he did what I wanted to do (plus more -- he created a new Web-based database system, PHP-based, implemented a Web-based notification system for the users, etc. -- from what I've seen he did a fine job with it).

    Addendum (2010-05-12 10:24):
    s/format IT/formal IT/
  • z f k 2010-05-12 02:58
    Markp:
    Boss:
    Anyway... When do we get to hear the prostitute joke? ... Anyone got one?

    What did the prostitute say when she walked into a bar?


    ANSWER>>Ouch!<<ANSWER

    That's what she said?

    captcha: eros
  • Kiss me I'm Polish 2010-05-12 03:58
    While I enjoy reading through the eruption of egoes of IT gurus who refuse to wear a decent suit to a job interview, I'd like to remind you - we're not in 1995 anymore.
    Back when IT guys were rare, companies had to put up with bearded grizzlies wearing sandals and shorts all day, and if they were lucky, a shirt.
    Today, every year universities spit out hundreds of trained monkeys^H^H^H^H^H^H^H professionals. Some of them actually enjoy showering every day, and some don't mind wearing a suit to an interview.
    Also, in some parts of the world, not wearing a suit to an interview (even when applying for a duct cleaner position) is considered an insult.
    And from a personal point of view - wearing a suit is not that bad. It's comfortable and everybody looks good in a suit.
  • Marc 2010-05-12 04:21
    My interview started with the boss showing up on time, but stating he isn't allowed to start without the HR person in the room. So we talked about the weather or something. Then the HR person showed up and asked the standard "what did I miss" question, to which I answered "We just had some idle chat, he asked my age, marital status, religion, you know, the standard stuff."

    Further in the interview, boss said "I see you have Linux on there, you any good with that?" To which I answered "No, that's just resume filler."

    I got the job and enjoyed working there (more than 5 years).
  • Pale Brit 2010-05-12 04:38
    Tom:
    It's obvious that the first story was written by a British-English speaker. That's why some of you are confused.


    The "orange tan" description gave it away. I believe that other English speaking countries get real sunlight but the fake orange tan is a common sight here.
  • Someone Awful 2010-05-12 04:50
    amischiefr:
    Lorne Kates:
    I'm not sure why she didn't think that maybe, just maybe, the documentation team might recognize their own documentation.


    Because even the doc team doesn't RTFM?

    Of course not, they WTFM, duh...

    So, to them it's WORM?
  • Someone Awful 2010-05-12 04:54
    (username *me):
    Jurgen:
    I don't even have a suit!


    That phrasing makes me think you've worn one....

    Not only can I say I don't and have not owned a suit, but I can say(honest to god) that I haven't even worn one!


    Go rent a tux sell-out!

    What do penguins have to do with it?
  • Chris 2010-05-12 05:13
    like why you need to extend an interface in an abstract class declaration instead of implement


    Huh ? Isn't it "interface can extend a super-interface and an abstract class can implement an interface" ?
  • java.lang.Chris; 2010-05-12 06:25
    bob:
    What the hell is a "British-English speaker"? I think you mean an "English speaker". Presumably as opposed to one of these modern bastardised dialects.


    If you mean American English, then in many ways it is a more traditional dialect than British English. The most noticable grammar and spelling differences between American and British English are where the former uses older forms ("-ize" instead of "-ise" or "-er" instead of "-re" for example) that have passed out of usage elsewhere.
  • Quresh 2010-05-12 07:06
    Well that was obviously a trick question (abstract classes don't "extends" an interface, they still "implement" it). Obviously they screwed you up on that one.
  • Quresh 2010-05-12 07:13
    wtf:
    Remy Porter:
    wtf:

    Although, now that I think of it, abstract classes can implement interfaces, can't they?
    Hm...


    Ah, but any un-implemented interface methods have to be declared as part of the abstract class and implemented by any concrete children. So you're safe.


    That's right. So my explanation doesn't work - interface methods are abstract, internally, by definition, even if they're not explicitly declared abstract. So for an interface to implement an interface would be fine from that standpoint.

    Maybe it's just that the designers thought the logic worked better this way. "An interface can't implement an interface, because an interface can't implement. So we say it extends, and it does the same thing as implementing".


    By using extends for interface, you allow the child interface to override methods in the parent. Implements tells the compiler that the class implements all the methods of the given interface. With implements for interface hierarchy you'd only be able to achieve overloading and not overriding.
  • Josephus 2010-05-12 07:17
    Consult This:
    Andrew in a Suit:
    While all you geeks are arguing about the technical merits of a piece of cloth, you have missed the point that wearing a suit is worth an extra 25% on your salary. In consultancy, you can't easily get more than a couple of hundred a day without one.
    $300 a day here, no suit since 1995.


    15 years experience and $300 a day? You should have worn a suit!
  • Gill Bates 2010-05-12 07:20
    Boss:
    Wearing a suit to an interview has little to do with how good you look or how formal you can be, it is about showing how much you want the job.


    It's a real shame that superfluous items of fabric have a hand in determining your existence. I'd rather the prospective employer was a little more imaginative and laid down some actual challenges during interview, not just your ability to dress yourself in unfamiliar clothing.

    Want the job? You can have it if you drink that entire bottle of Blair's Ultra Death Sauce, it's yours if you put on that lacy underwear and go into the CEO's office, you can start today if you help me make this obscene phone call..

    that kind of thing. it'd certainly weed out the candidates who view your job opportunity as a backup option.

    Boss:
    Anyway... When do we get to hear the prostitute joke? That's the only reason I kept reading. Anyone got one?


    Is this a call for a prostitute joke thread?
  • Ziplodocus 2010-05-12 07:32
    How many prostitutes does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
  • SCB 2010-05-12 07:32
    Josephus:
    Consult This:
    Andrew in a Suit:
    While all you geeks are arguing about the technical merits of a piece of cloth, you have missed the point that wearing a suit is worth an extra 25% on your salary. In consultancy, you can't easily get more than a couple of hundred a day without one.
    $300 a day here, no suit since 1995.


    15 years experience and $300 a day? You should have worn a suit!

    Agreed. I like wearing suits, and I'd be insulted if someone offered me $300 per day.
  • Totally Not Using My Real Name 2010-05-12 08:54
    Ziplodocus:
    How many prostitutes does it take to screw in a lightbulb?


    It depends on how much you pay them.

    What is the difference between a prostitute and a lawyer?
    The prostitute stops screwing you after you're dead.
  • Zim 2010-05-12 10:36
    Ziplodocus:


    First rule of tautology club...

    Pretty much, you are prostituting yourself in a job interview. You're demonstrating, to the best of your abilities, that you're willing to be f*cked in the a$$ regularly in order to recieve money...

    ...or is that just where I work


    Well, if it were Irish Girl wearing some sort of leather outfit and there was some vigorous spanking involved, sure.
  • nB 2010-05-12 11:09
    mrs_helm:
    It's not to show that cloth is vital to programming. It is to display that you are capable of showing respect for the company and the people to whom you will be reporting, and that you are capable of conforming to social norms for specific situations. It might not have prevented you from getting a job thus far, but it certainly can't hurt.

    You may think you do not want to work for someone who makes those kinds of judgements, but in reality everyone does, and you're only hurting yourself by refusing to play the system.

    Same goes for those with tattoos and piercings. Hide them for interviews, if possible.
    Last intervier I went to I wore a tie dye & jeans, hair was in a pony tail, and I hadn't shaved in three or four days. That said, they called me for the interview at 4:00 and asked if I could be there by 4:30. I said sure as long as you don't mind that I'm 20 min away, currently wearing casual cloths, and not at all dressed to impress. They really didn't care. On the bright side, what they cared about was if I could automate their test environment, so I brought a sample app I wrote, with source, and the rest is history.
  • Whiskey, Eh? 2010-05-12 11:28
    [quote user="nB"]

    Same goes for those with tattoos and piercings. Hide them for interviews, if possible.[/quote]Last intervier I went to I wore a tie dye & jeans, hair was in a pony tail, and I hadn't shaved in three or four days. That said, they called me for the interview at 4:00 and asked if I could be there by 4:30. I said sure as long as you don't mind that I'm 20 min away, currently wearing casual cloths, and not at all dressed to impress. They really didn't care. On the bright side, what they cared about was if I could automate their test environment, so I brought a sample app I wrote, with source, and the rest is history.[/quote]

    It takes you more than 10 minutes to shave and change into some nice clothes?
  • ARMed but harmless 2010-05-12 12:50
    Barry J:
    Ajtacka:
    Personally, I'd hate to work somewhere with a suit-level dress code. Why? Coz I'm a jeans-and-tshirt kinda girl.


    OH MY GOD ITS A GIRL EVERYONE ACT NORMAL!!!!!!!!

    Too late.
    Ajtacka, marry me!
    Yup, way too late.
  • Luis Espinal 2010-05-12 14:37
    Anonymous:
    Anon:
    Really Ray? Did you have to tell Steve's boss that you thought Steve was an idiot? The boss apparently didn't seem to care, but still.
    If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

    Honesty is the best policy. A "white" lie is still a lie.


    No, it is not. Self-restrain is a better policy (and a sign of maturity). Furthermore, honesty has nothing to do with being correct, factual, objective, professional or mature. After all, one can be honest in expressing a gratuitous, unwarranted insult.

    The only time you give a negative assessment is when 1) it is your job to do so, or 2) when it is the moral or legal thing to do, and only when it is factual and applicable to a particular context or time.

    I knew a lot of people in college and past jobs that were idiotic, but I'm not going to bad-mouth them because 1) people change (sometimes for better, sometimes for worse), and 2) because the idiocy I saw in them is a projection of my own stupidity, intolerance and arrogance on others. I would be characterizing them from how I knew them, not from who they might be now.

    Furthermore, why would I make an statement that might hurt someone else, even if it is true (or was true at some in time) when there is no clear objective good obtained from it?

    Honesty without maturity is just infantile, emotional yapping.

    Honesty is the best policy when it is called for it.
  • causa anda effacta 2010-05-12 14:51
    Someone Awful:
    amischiefr:
    Lorne Kates:
    I'm not sure why she didn't think that maybe, just maybe, the documentation team might recognize their own documentation.


    Because even the doc team doesn't RTFM?

    Of course not, they WTFM, duh...

    So, to them it's WORM?

    Who cares about republicans?
  • grav is 2010-05-12 14:52
    Xythar:
    Kensey:
    Last time I went out job-hunting, I went out on three rounds of interviews and had an offer reasonably quickly, and that even with breaking the rule of "don't bring coffee in with you".


    I think the writer of that article forgot rule #16, 'When writing an article about professionalism, try to learn the difference between "your" and "you're" so that you can avoid using the wrong one 3 times in every paragraph'. I mean, c'mon.

    What about rule 34?
  • El Bastardo 2010-05-12 15:26
    Andrew in a Suit:
    While all you geeks are arguing about the technical merits of a piece of cloth, you have missed the point that wearing a suit is worth an extra 25% on your salary. In consultancy, you can't easily get more than a couple of hundred a day without one.


    I make almost $800/day and I do it in shorts and a t-shirt.
  • Franz Kafka 2010-05-12 15:51
    Whiskey, Eh?:

    It takes you more than 10 minutes to shave and change into some nice clothes?


    Hey, if you call someone for an interview with a half hour notice, taht's waht you get.
  • ajtacka 2010-05-12 16:38
    ARMed but harmless:
    Barry J:
    Ajtacka:
    Personally, I'd hate to work somewhere with a suit-level dress code. Why? Coz I'm a jeans-and-tshirt kinda girl.


    OH MY GOD ITS A GIRL EVERYONE ACT NORMAL!!!!!!!!

    Too late.
    Ajtacka, marry me!
    Yup, way too late.

    Yup, too late... already got the ring my finger, I'm afraid! :)
    (Actually still getting used to it, it's only been there 2 weeks!)
  • RayS 2010-05-13 07:22
    I got halfway through the first story and thought "shoot, now mine will never get published, that's way too similar". The changes were just enough to put me off. It was mostly intact though, but with swearing removed and orange tan added.
    Edit: Unless there's another Ray Smith, I was also misattributed for the 2nd submission too. I blame Steve.
  • Someone You Know 2010-05-13 07:44
    El Bastardo:
    Andrew in a Suit:
    While all you geeks are arguing about the technical merits of a piece of cloth, you have missed the point that wearing a suit is worth an extra 25% on your salary. In consultancy, you can't easily get more than a couple of hundred a day without one.


    I make almost $800/day and I do it in shorts and a t-shirt.


    Zimbabwean dollars don't count.
  • Luis Espinal 2010-05-13 10:54
    Andrew in a Suit:
    While all you geeks are arguing about the technical merits of a piece of cloth, you have missed the point that wearing a suit is worth an extra 25% on your salary. In consultancy, you can't easily get more than a couple of hundred a day without one.


    Not true. I was a consultant for about 10 years, each day making several hundred $ a day (with consultancy fees increases every year).

    I only wore suits during interviews, and only one consulting gig (back in 2001) required me to wear long sleeves and slacks (no jeans except on casual Fridays.)

    There are some lucrative consulting gigs where we must use a suit - meeting executives, having top-notch skills in in some niche tech areas where you get called because no one else in house can fix some shit that is broken and is bleeding the company a ton of money.

    FOR THAT, I can see the argument. But there are a lot of consulting gigs that can EASILY pay $268/day (the equivalent of $70K) just for starters without requiring a suit.

    The average consultancy work is certainly above $300/day. People making $400-500 (or even more) while wearing jeans is not unheard off.

    On another note, the last time I was required to wear a tie was from 1995 to 1998 (my first full-time software job), and it was as an employee, not a consultant.

    Having said that, I have to agree with you in my bewilderment with the herds (not hordes, but herds) of unwashed geeks who seem allergic to the notion of using a suit.

    Grow the hell up people. Anyone short of being a singularity of ugliness looks good and professional with a suit. And you *don't work* in a suit, you simply wear it to meet customers. Then you take it off, you roll your sleeves, unfasten the belt and the tie a little and you get to work.

    And for those of you who insist in coming to work with sandals, by God, clip those toenails and remove whatever sandy, mold-ridden green/gray bacterial mat that is underneath them.

    The rest of us normal humans with a sense of hygiene can see that crap a mile a way. Clean that crap, you don't need it for programming.
  • Artur 2010-05-13 11:17
    Just for sake of nitpicking, you DO IMPLEMENT interfaces in abstract classes. They probably asked why you extend interface in another interface, not in abstract class.
  • drobnox 2010-05-13 16:52
    Markp:

    Boss:
    Anyway... When do we get to hear the prostitute joke? ... Anyone got one?

    What did the prostitute say when she walked into a bar?


    ANSWER>>Ouch!<<ANSWER

    What do you call a prostitute with a runny nose?

    ANSWER>>Full!<<ANSWER
  • Parsifal 2010-05-20 06:49
    I was on the giving end of an interview which could have gone this way. As it happens, these applicants didn't know the answers as the primary criterion was whether they would work for 1/2 my rate or less. Since I disdained to give them the answers, my recommendation was no-hire to all, and also to get a better recruiting firm. Naturally, my replacement was hired over my objections. Last time I checked, the company's stock was in the toilet after a severe service level agreement-impacting production issue.
  • Ika B 2010-05-23 04:44
    Josephus:
    Ika B - regular contributor?


    Actually a first timer
  • rf 2010-05-25 02:28
    Dank:
    why you need to extend an interface in an abstract class declaration instead of implement


    says who?
  • Invader_ACE 2010-06-21 09:36
    Dank:
    I once had an interview very similar to the third one. I came in a little early and the boss who was still busy, so instead of just having me wait, he detailed two of the junior programmers to ask me some questions about Java. I knew most, but got stumped on some (like why you need to extend an interface in an abstract class declaration instead of implement). They kindly explained the answers. Then, once the boss came in and asked me the exact same questions, I now knew all the them down pat.


    Uhm, if you try to write 'abstract class extends <interface name>' you will get an error as a
    class cannot extend an interface. A simple test with a javac will show you so. Or reading jls.
    An abstract class implementing an interface need not implement any method however.
  • dgghua 2010-09-04 04:54
    I love to read interesting post that has knowledge to impart. I hope to read more articles from you and in return I will post also my articles in the forum so that others can benefit from it. Keep up the good work!Rosetta stone learning software worthy of trust,Rosetta Stone
    Rosetta Stone Spanish the effect is very obvious, guarantee our product, progress quickly!
  • dgghua 2010-09-04 04:56
    I love to read interesting post that has knowledge to impart. I hope to read more articles from you and in return I will post also my articles in the forum so that others can benefit from it. Keep up the good work!Rosetta stone learning software worthy of trust,Rosetta Stone
    Rosetta Stone Spanish the effect is very obvious, guarantee our product, progress quickly!
  • dgghua 2010-09-04 04:58
    I love to read interesting post that has knowledge to impart. I hope to read more articles from you and in return I will post also my articles in the forum so that others can benefit from it. Keep up the good work!Rosetta stone learning software worthy of trust,Rosetta Stone
    Rosetta Stone Spanish the effect is very obvious, guarantee our product, progress quickly!
  • Marclurr 2010-10-07 08:00
    "(like why you need to extend an interface in an abstract class declaration instead of implement)"

    This is wrong, you implement an interface in an abstract class in the same way you would a regular class, the only difference if you don't actually have to implement the methods, that can be left down to the concrete implementation..
  • Hannes 2013-03-26 17:13
    The third story reminds me a lot of my latest job interview.

    I just finished my studies at the University (business informatics) and was eager to find a job, to finally earn some money. I sent a few job applications to a few companies and had a pretty good hit rate of getting job interviews.

    Knowing that job interviews are my weak point, I prepared very thoroughly for every one of them. Reading about the company and what they do, reading about job interviews in general, preparing questions that I can ask, and so on.

    Since I was applying for a software developer/administrator kind of position, I also looked at some programs that people where required to code during interviews (like fizzbuzz).

    The interviews I had where pretty much the standard procedure. Nothing out of the ordinary. But one job interview stood out to be pretty... interesting.

    I arrived on time, was greeted very warmly, got offered something to drink ("Coffe? Tea? Water?"). Then the interview began.

    First question:
    "Do you know what we do?"
    - "Yes," I answered. I explained what I read on the web site and that I thought that it was really important and so on (leaving a good impression, and showing my interest in the company)
    The interviewer sat down.
    "What do you want to know?" was the second question I was asked. So, I asked one of the questions I prepared for. After the interviewer finished answering the question, she just sat there full of expectation for my next question... which I asked. After the question was answered, it was my turn again to ask another one.
    I became a bit nervous... THIS is a job interview? Why doesn't she aks ME some questions then? After about 15 minutes I thought it was time to end this, so I said something like "Okay, I think I got a pretty good picture about your company".

    Luckily, the interviewer then got someone from the IT to join the interview. I expected to answer some questions myself now. But the IT guy only told me some stuff about what they do there.

    Conclusion: I spent about 20 minutes on this interview. It was ME who was asking all the questions. In the end, I got a job offer (which I accepted, btw). But it was a very strange job interview nevertheless...