Trust Me, I'm A Doctor

« Return to Article
  • Jax 2007-01-24 12:58
    "(one table, "Lookup," had a Boolean as the primary key)"

    Unbelievable....
  • 2007-01-24 13:05
  • ContractorInLivingHell 2007-01-24 13:07
    Yes, one of the things that steers people away from medical work is the arrogance of certain people in the profession. So much talent is wasted on "brightest kid in the room" competition and pettiness the likes of which is rarely seen in other lines of work (apart perhaps from the "World of Art"...) Along with that and the high malprac. insurance rates, managed care B.S., understaffed wards and EDs, insane hours and the constant threats of lawsuits, is it any wonder the world of medical care is growing ever-more critically-short of doctors and similar medical practitioners? No surprise at all.
  • Mark 2007-01-24 13:09
    I've worked on a doctor's original source for a EMR, a fun input parameter for a method was ArrayList, each item in the ArrayList was type object[] where each item in object[] was some base type, mind you each object[] was of different length.
  • Ilya 2007-01-24 13:09
    Don't argue with a doctor.

    captcha = sanitarium , how appropriate
  • Sean Alexander 2007-01-24 13:12
    I though the image http://feeds.feedburner.com/~a/TheDailyWtf?i=aplpuD&p=4063&c=2079&x=MTQxNjgyMjY2OTYxMTo5NzAy was for the article.
  • Francois 2007-01-24 13:12
    I don't work with Access, so here goes a "n00b question":
    If you declare a boolean as the PK for a table, the DB should limit you to 2 entries, right? Does Access check constraints and FK's at insert time?
  • jmfc 2007-01-24 13:19
    I run into this type of thing a lot for the companies I do work for. Both are run by a doctor who thinks he knows everything about software also. I was developing a spec doc which included a definition of an XML file structure. He came to me the next day and was challenging how I created it. He said he started an online tutorial on XML the day before and it didn't look right to him. This from the man how for a year and half now keeps saying to me 'I thought we were going to program that in XML' or 'can't we just program this in XML'. To which I reply every time that XML isn't a programming language and that we are using C# or ColdFusion. He also insists a previous app was 'coded' in XML, when in reality is had nothing to do with XML - it was a C++ app with Access DB
  • snoofle 2007-01-24 13:19
    K.G. did the best thing there was to do in that situation - walk away. People who think they know it all rarely do.
  • Kiss me, I'm Polish 2007-01-24 13:21
    Did the software have anything to do with mass mailing c4n4d14n/m3x1c4n ph4rm4c1e5?
  • Gsquared 2007-01-24 13:21
    Francois:
    I don't work with Access, so here goes a "n00b question":
    If you declare a boolean as the PK for a table, the DB should limit you to 2 entries, right? Does Access check constraints and FK's at insert time?

    Yes, you can only have two rows in that table. (I just tested it.) Bets on whether they were "Found" and "Not Found"? Would make sense in a table called "Lookup".
  • your mom 2007-01-24 13:21
    it's LED! LED!!!!! "lead" pronounced how you meant it is the name of an element. that's all. sorry for the intrusion. really, i am. it's a sickness...
  • snoofle 2007-01-24 13:27
    Gsquared:
    Francois:
    I don't work with Access, so here goes a "n00b question":
    If you declare a boolean as the PK for a table, the DB should limit you to 2 entries, right? Does Access check constraints and FK's at insert time?

    Yes, you can only have two rows in that table. (I just tested it.) Bets on whether they were "Found" and "Not Found"? Would make sense in a table called "Lookup".

    Ahem! It's "File_Not_Found"
  • Gsquared 2007-01-24 13:28
    I've worked with medical specialists and doctors before, and some of them are truly the world's more pretentious asses, but many of them are perfectly willing to accept that others are specialists in their own fields.

    Most medical specialists would send for another specialist if something medical came up that was outside their field. The endocrynologist in the story, for example, would definitely call in a cardiologist if he had a patient who had a heart issue being affected by an endocrine problem.

    Of course, my response to, "after all, it's not endocrynology" would have been, "yes, after all, computer code is considerably more complex than pituitary extract".
  • Kaosadvokit 2007-01-24 13:28
    The truly sad part is that the doctor is a more accomplished/skilled software developer than many that [attempt to] make a living as such.
  • KattMan 2007-01-24 13:28
    Kiss me, I'm Polish:
    Did the software have anything to do with mass mailing c4n4d14n/m3x1c4n ph4rm4c1e5?


    The real WTF is that I actually read Canadian/Mexican Pharmacies the first time through without a problem.
  • Fred Flintstone 2007-01-24 13:29
    We used to call that "Engineer's Disease" - the idea that being an expert in one thing makes you an expert in others.
  • Your Name 2007-01-24 13:37
    Programming is easy.
    Structured and organized programming isn't.

    Captcha: tacos. No, I wanted spaghetti!!!
  • notadoctor 2007-01-24 13:41
    Francois:
    I don't work with Access, so here goes a "n00b question":
    If you declare a boolean as the PK for a table, the DB should limit you to 2 entries, right?

    Not unless you redefined boolean to have 3 values, as we've seen done in other articles.
  • Dashifen 2007-01-24 13:45
    Why do people come to experts in a field when they aren't interested in letting said expert perform their job!! I can't count the number of times that I've had folks with little to no training or experience in programming and/or design tell me how to do my job. Some times I wish I could return the "favor" but, alas, unlike K.G., I'm still a cog in the machine these days.
  • Mr.<undefined> 2007-01-24 13:51
    I had a CEO that was just like this. He used to say "programming is just a control+c control+v job". His formation? Publicity.

    CAPTCHA: darwin. I hope this kind of people die soon.
  • doxxx 2007-01-24 13:52
    "endued"

    ... I'm trying to decide whether you meant "endowed" or "embued". Both work, I guess :)
  • Stickman 2007-01-24 13:54
    > I'm trying to decide whether you meant "endowed" or "embued".

    Or even, 'imbued'.
  • rmr 2007-01-24 14:01
    ContractorInLivingHell:
    . . .So much talent is wasted on "brightest kid in the room" competition and pettiness the likes of which is rarely seen in other lines of work (apart perhaps from the "World of Art"...). . .


    You obviously haven't spent much time around programmers! For whatever reason, we see absolutely nothing wrong with arguing over the correct position of curly braces for hours. The stuff programmers argue over (often on this site) is extremely petty.


  • none 2007-01-24 14:02
    From what I can tell KG was a lot nicer then I would have been. When I'm in situations like that I tend to be a jerk.
  • Abscissa 2007-01-24 14:03
    Well there's a PhD for you...
  • kuroshin 2007-01-24 14:06
    Noobs, the doc wore the juice.

    captcha : scooter (umm, I think it means : the doctor can scoot away)
  • fennec 2007-01-24 14:06
    ContractorInLivingHell:
    Yes, one of the things that steers people away from medical work is the arrogance of certain people in the profession. So much talent is wasted on "brightest kid in the room" competition and pettiness the likes of which is rarely seen in other lines of work (apart perhaps from the "World of Art"...) Along with that and the high malprac. insurance rates, managed care B.S., understaffed wards and EDs, insane hours and the constant threats of lawsuits, is it any wonder the world of medical care is growing ever-more critically-short of doctors and similar medical practitioners? No surprise at all.


    I have a friend who's pre-med, and describes the first two years of her pre-med experience as "academic hazing". While I appreciate that people really don't want unqualified doctors, there are incentives to artificially constrict the supply to help keep doctors scarce... and drive up salaries...
  • aaron 2007-01-24 14:12
    I had to deal with similar BS at a previous job working for a municipality. We had a police chief that moonlighted as an IT consultant and a fire chief that knew enough to be dangerous. I would routinely get calls from the fire dept lackeys telling me that there was a problem and that the chief had "already looked at it" which generally made the problem worse.

    for example: we installed a second computer. they said nothing about putting it on the network, but the fire chief went out and purchased a router-switch from walmart and hooked it up to use for both those computers. Needless to say, that caused some problems with software that was mapped directly to the IP of the first computer. Who gets called to clean up this mess that he created? the alleged "inept IT department".

    If someone hires me as a specialist, I would think it's because they believe I know what I'm doing. What's with the micromanagement then? Just tell me what you want and let go!

    captcha: "pirates" arrrgggh!
  • Dan L 2007-01-24 14:12
    I find that I share a kinship with doctors though. We both have friends/family/acquaintances/strangers approach us outside of work to have a "quick look" at problems with their health/computers.

    As a Java/C++ programmer, people somehow think it's appropriate to ask me to spend 2 hours cleaning viruses and spyware off their computer for them. Free of charge of course.
  • Patrick 2007-01-24 14:18
    My mom's a Gynocologist...and I constantly get lectures about things that don't even pertain to me (a guy)...I just cease to listen.
  • Ben 2007-01-24 14:19
    Dan L:
    I find that I share a kinship with doctors though. We both have friends/family/acquaintances/strangers approach us outside of work to have a "quick look" at problems with their health/computers.

    As a Java/C++ programmer, people somehow think it's appropriate to ask me to spend 2 hours cleaning viruses and spyware off their computer for them. Free of charge of course.


    As a network admin, I learned long ago the only possible solution for this: Tell them about AV/AS software and if that doesn't work, keep their computer for a month if they bring it to me. If they complain, my response is: "Well, at least you got what you paid for."
  • RevMike 2007-01-24 14:20
    rmr:
    ContractorInLivingHell:
    . . .So much talent is wasted on "brightest kid in the room" competition and pettiness the likes of which is rarely seen in other lines of work (apart perhaps from the "World of Art"...). . .


    You obviously haven't spent much time around programmers! For whatever reason, we see absolutely nothing wrong with arguing over the correct position of curly braces for hours. The stuff programmers argue over (often on this site) is extremely petty.




    I absolutely agree. The braces issues are minor compared to the choice of editor.
  • gwenhwyfaer 2007-01-24 14:24
    In fairness, some doctors do know what they're doing with software. Anyone else remember Dr David Nye's E editor for DOS? (Came with TASM source code and a config program, was 6.5k in size yet gave VDE a run for its money. My favourite piece of software ever.)

    (edit: Just seen the comment immediately above mine - how apposite...)
  • Chris Davis 2007-01-24 14:25
    Alex, are you an Al Franken listener? If you're not I'd like to point out that kidding-on-the-square is a phrase Franken has been trying to spread.
  • Patrick 2007-01-24 14:31
    Chris Davis:
    Alex, are you an Al Franken listener? If you're not I'd like to point out that kidding-on-the-square is a phrase Franken has been trying to spread.


    So...your point?
  • Ara Pehlivanian 2007-01-24 14:35
    Classic! That's one for the books!
  • foofoodyne 2007-01-24 14:42
    I was once asked by a doctor to get involved in developing a patient management system with him. He already had a working example using Filemaker on his Mac. He was a real fan of the Mac. He showed me his application and even had me sign a non-disclosure agreement to do so.

    I did no take the path of critiquing his design or code. I barely even looked at them. Instead I explained all of the logistics and effort involved in developing, deploying, and supporting a piece of retail software. He had already offered to allow me to come on as a full partner in the company he intended to form for developing it. I declined, saying I would rather just consult as needed. I made it clear that I thought he was up against more than he realized. I did not try to make him look stupid or anything, just made clear what all is really involved.

    He later told my boss, who had brought the two of us together as mutual acquantences, that I had been the perfect person to speak to about it. To my knowledge he dropped the idea completely.
  • diaphanein 2007-01-24 14:43
    Fred Flintstone:
    We used to call that "Engineer's Disease" - the idea that being an expert in one thing makes you an expert in others.


    Competent engineers know better. Licensed engineers certainly know better.

    One of the reasons I believe software developement should be a licensed profession. i.e. You have to pass a government exam before you're allowed to practice in certain areas.

    This sort of behavior is not unique to engineers or doctors. My first boss at my present company was an example. Guy new C++ decently. Had me work on a project in C#, one of my expertises. Tried to tell me how to do the project (micromanaging implementation, not overall design). Could not believe that certain C++ patterns just did not effectively translate to C#. Oh well. He got fired 8 months into my tenure.
  • snoofle 2007-01-24 14:43
    RevMike:
    rmr:
    ContractorInLivingHell:
    . . .So much talent is wasted on "brightest kid in the room" competition and pettiness the likes of which is rarely seen in other lines of work (apart perhaps from the "World of Art"...). . .


    You obviously haven't spent much time around programmers! For whatever reason, we see absolutely nothing wrong with arguing over the correct position of curly braces for hours. The stuff programmers argue over (often on this site) is extremely petty.



    I absolutely agree. The braces issues are minor compared to the choice of editor.

    Or perhaps Cold Fusion vs Ruby* vs Perl vs C#/.NET/Java vs VB* vs ...

    ...let the flames begin
  • ElQuberto 2007-01-24 14:47
    Gsquared:
    I've worked with medical specialists and doctors before, and some of them are truly the world's more pretentious asses, but many of them are perfectly willing to accept that others are specialists in their own fields.


    But those aren't the ones that start "software companies" which are the ultra-geniuses. Everything involving computers to them will only take 2-3 days tops. If it takes more than that offshore it to India and have 500 people working on it at the same time, cause that's bound to work.

    Gsquared:
    Of course, my response to, "after all, it's not endocrynology" would have been, "yes, after all, computer code is considerably more complex than pituitary extract".


    Meh, I would of said something about him being a mechanic.
  • diaphanein 2007-01-24 14:48
    Patrick:
    My mom's a Gynocologist...and I constantly get lectures about things that don't even pertain to me (a guy)...I just cease to listen.


    Heh.

    "Son, have you been in for your pap smear this year?"
    "No, ma. Have you been in your prostate exam?"
  • Reza 2007-01-24 14:49
    Giving credit where credit is due? More likely he's just thinking out loud. Either way it's off topic.
  • dustin 2007-01-24 14:55
    Lookup table
    Yes
    No
    File Not Found

    lol
  • Drum D. 2007-01-24 14:55
    And this is one of these moments when I hate myself for going the way of medical informatics.
  • Theresa 2007-01-24 14:57
    Faculty is worse. I used to be the "interim BD manager" for about 6 months years ago. It came to a rapid end when a dean from one of the top engineering schools pitched a FEA package that required users to put in material properties and other variables as 5 digit numbers (e.g. 12345 -- oak, 43215 -- high tensile steel, 34234 -- chrome steel, 32452 -- I beam, 67324 -- U beam). The GUI consisted of 50 text boxes on a page.

    I patiently explained to him that this would not be acceptable for a commercial product a few times without any effect ("I wrote this and I can use it."). Thankfully I slipped by referring to the developer as a idiot in a meeting with the CEO. Two weeks later we hired a new BD manager and I was able to do my normal 50 hour/week job.
  • whocares 2007-01-24 14:58
    One of the reasons I believe software developement should be a licensed profession. i.e.


    I know people with Bachelor/Master in IT who didn't know what a SQL injection is before i told them...
  • un.sined 2007-01-24 15:04
    diaphanein:

    One of the reasons I believe software developement should be a licensed profession. i.e. You have to pass a government exam before you're allowed to practice in certain areas.


    I'm quite glad that it's not. Do you honestly expect the government to come up with a set of questions that isn't language specific, or out of date by the time people actually get to take the test?

    Besides, becoming a "licensed professional" (architect, medical doctor, lawyer) requires schooling in addition to passing the test. I've never been one for school, mostly because I learn at my own pace, typically by reading and experimenting. Lectures and the like have never helped me.

    What for the people like me?
  • nobody 2007-01-24 15:07
    diaphanein:
    One of the reasons I believe software developement should be a licensed profession.


    Living in the Boston area, I've heard of WTF (as well as Oh, Sh!t!) from licensed engineers. Holding up concrete ceiling panels (yes, ceiling panels) from bolts GLUED into concrete. It is supposed to work when done properly, but this is asking construction workers to be very careful with lots of bolts. And of course, the test parameters were adjusted so the work done wouldn't have to be re-done at contractor expense.
    At least, when my stuff fails, nobody dies.
  • spamparranoid 2007-01-24 15:07
    or code injection of any type. However, cleaning up code or redeveloping software gives some of us jobs.

    Captcha = stinky
  • thorin 2007-01-24 15:08
    How can true/false be unique enough to be a Primary Key? "lookup" only contains 2 records?
  • Steamer2k 2007-01-24 15:09
    ContractorInLivingHell:
    Along with that and the high malprac. insurance rates, managed care B.S., understaffed wards and EDs, ...


    I assume you mean ERs? Oh well--given the context of this story, I'll chalk it up as an understandable Freudian slip.
  • 2007-01-24 15:10
    Yah, but any government exam will be fifteen years out of date and test for whatever's politically powerful.
  • Steamer2k 2007-01-24 15:21
    [quote user="diaphanein"]One of the reasons I believe software developement should be a licensed profession. i.e. You have to pass a government exam before you're allowed to practice in certain areas.[quote]

    That's a nice theory--unfortunately it would mean that software would be managed by the same people that run the DMV.
  • snoofle 2007-01-24 15:24
    :
    Yah, but any government exam will be fifteen years out of date and test for whatever's politically powerful.

    Thus creating significant, prolonged and heated congressional debate on such topics as:

    Can new code be created, or must it evolve?

    Can data objects be morally cloned?

    If it is not politically correct to point, then should all langauges containing pointers be banned?

    ...

  • Jethris 2007-01-24 15:24
    I worked for a civil engineering company. They had spreadsheets that detailed out the materials used in each structure. Then more spreadsheets that listed totals for each material. Needless to say, it was a nightmare waiting to happen. They couldn't keep the data up to date in multiple places.

    Enter the DB designer/developer. I understood instantly the relationships they were expressing, and told the engineers that the design would take a day or two, and application another 3-4 weeks.

    One particular engineer questioned the ability to keep material quantity current by material and by structure. Easy enough, I tried to explain table design. She went on for 15 minutes about how I could not do it any better than their rudementary spreadsheet system.

    1 week later, and I present the first alpha release. It worked (had some bugs), but showed all the functionality that was required. She never said a word the entire presentation.

    Captcha: xevious

    That's not even a word!
  • Anon. 2007-01-24 15:28
    Check out these two.

    http://www.explosm.net/comics/743/

    AND

    http://www.explosm.net/comics/695/

    and i have nothing else to say.
  • Woody 2007-01-24 15:46
    Steamer2k:
    ContractorInLivingHell:
    Along with that and the high malprac. insurance rates, managed care B.S., understaffed wards and EDs, ...


    I assume you mean ERs? Oh well--given the context of this story, I'll chalk it up as an understandable Freudian slip.


    Nope, Emergency Department is the "new" term for that. Don't know why, exactly.
  • Derrick Pallas 2007-01-24 15:47
    At least, when my stuff fails, nobody dies.


    Maybe you've never heard of Therac-25. Or the MIM-101 Patriot. Or Chinook.

    When I lectured for the undergraduate Software Engineering class, we spent the first week of class (two lectures) talking about software problems that killed people.

    In the corporate world, who knows if your company or code-base will be bought and assimilated? That's when cut-and-paste becomes dangerous. "We wouldn't have purchased this if it didn't work!"
  • diaphanein 2007-01-24 15:49
    nobody:
    diaphanein:
    One of the reasons I believe software developement should be a licensed profession.


    Living in the Boston area, I've heard of WTF (as well as Oh, Sh!t!) from licensed engineers. Holding up concrete ceiling panels (yes, ceiling panels) from bolts GLUED into concrete. It is supposed to work when done properly, but this is asking construction workers to be very careful with lots of bolts. And of course, the test parameters were adjusted so the work done wouldn't have to be re-done at contractor expense.
    At least, when my stuff fails, nobody dies.


    And by signing off on the design, the engineer is assuming legal responsibility for his/her design. When was the last time you saw a programmer do that?

    One of the reasons for being licensed is that by doing so, you acknowledge legal requirements and responsbilities associated with your profession. The above article is regarding medical software. Ever heard of HIPPA?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIPPA

    While *YOUR* software may not cause death if it fails, there is a lot that does. Think about how many things contain computers and software these days. As an example, what about xrays? You've probably never heard about the THERAC-25: http://www.netcomp.monash.edu.au/cpe9001/assets/readings/www_uguelph_ca_~tgallagh_~tgallagh.html

    What about the software in your car? Hrmm? What if the software controlling your brakes crashes right when you need them to avoid an accident? People are placing more and more trust in computers and software and unlicensed "professionals".

    I'm not suggesting you be required to be licensed in order to write a web service that vends blogs. But there are many, many areas where lives are on the line when software fails.
  • Old and Cynical 2007-01-24 15:57
    It could have been worse. It could have been the doctor's wife that made the software.

    My mom used to work in the medical field and the wives were worse than any of the doctors there.
  • PseudoNoise 2007-01-24 15:57
    nobody:
    ...
    At least, when my stuff fails, nobody dies.

    That's pretty harsh. So I take it none of your stuff has failed so far, since you're writing this. I guess the threat of death is a good way to keep up code quality.
  • Anony Moose 2007-01-24 15:58
    Becoming a licensed professional only requires one thing. It's not education. It's not exams. It's not even related to government. All those are just details.

    The primary requirement that actually matters is this: some agreement on what constitutes a minimum level of acceptable competency.

    I'll take up cat herding before I ever risk getting involved in that WTF of an argument. ;)
  • an ex-ED dev 2007-01-24 16:00
    Its not just a room, its an entire department.
  • ogilmor 2007-01-24 16:04
    yeah, the funny thing is if this doctor (er, endocrinologist) had let the sw developer do his job he might have made some money. the world is full of specialty software shops.
  • CynicalTyler 2007-01-24 16:08
    rmr:
    For whatever reason, we see absolutely nothing wrong with arguing over the correct position of curly braces for hours.


    You feeble-brained, grub-headed, chair-spinning nasal discharge! It's:

    if(condition) {
    ...
    }

    not:

    if(condition)
    {
    ...
    }

    And I'll fight anyone who types it otherwise!!!
  • Rich 2007-01-24 16:13
    diaphanein:
    Ever heard of HIPPA?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIPPA


    No. Is it anything like HIPAA?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIPAA

    Rich
  • James Schend 2007-01-24 16:14
    Steamer2k:
    ContractorInLivingHell:
    Along with that and the high malprac. insurance rates, managed care B.S., understaffed wards and EDs, ...


    I assume you mean ERs? Oh well--given the context of this story, I'll chalk it up as an understandable Freudian slip.


    I've worked in hospitals. ED "Emergency Department" is the correct term. The ER is just a part of the ED.
  • themagni 2007-01-24 16:15
    nobody:
    diaphanein:
    One of the reasons I believe software developement should be a licensed profession.


    At least, when my stuff fails, nobody dies.


    Some jurisdictions are adding "Software" to the list of Engineering Designations. For example, the province of BC (Canada) allows for Software Engineers through a CCPE-accredited program. After graduation and four years of increasing software development responsibilities, you can apply to become a Professional Engineer. There are a few details here: (Lots of the links are PDFs)
    http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/APEG?sa=Google+Search&q=software

    This would make it illegal for anyone in these areas to practice software engineering without having a B.Eng. and being a registered member of the appropriate professional association. This is one of the reasons they don't use the MSCE / NSE / ACBDE designation anymore.

    Violations of the APEG act (in BC) can lead to punishments up to $25,000 and a ban on practicing.

    I've written code that could cause human death in the event of a failure.
  • Rich 2007-01-24 16:16
    CynicalTyler:


    And I'll fight anyone who types it otherwise!!!


    Whitesmith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_True_Brace_Style#Whitesmiths_style) all the way!!!
  • themagni 2007-01-24 16:16
    CynicalTyler:
    rmr:
    For whatever reason, we see absolutely nothing wrong with arguing over the correct position of curly braces for hours.


    You feeble-brained, grub-headed, chair-spinning nasal discharge! It's:

    if(condition) {
    ...
    }

    not:

    if(condition)
    {
    ...
    }

    And I'll fight anyone who types it otherwise!!!


    You know, not even K&R use K&R. ;)
  • diaphanein 2007-01-24 16:17
    Rich:
    diaphanein:
    Ever heard of HIPPA?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIPPA


    No. Is it anything like HIPAA?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIPAA

    Rich


    Thanks, didn't notice the redirect. ;)
  • doc0tis 2007-01-24 16:19
    whocares:
    One of the reasons I believe software developement should be a licensed profession. i.e.


    I know people with Bachelor/Master in IT who didn't know what a SQL injection is before i told them...


    So? While I believe that all web developers should be following the latest in programing security (SQL injection, XSS etc...) if you are developer for a phone company where your input device is a telephone you probably don't need to know alot (if anything) about SQL injection.

    Same as there are different types of doctors. See above examples of a Gynocologist and Endocrinologist.

    If it was a licensed field people who are "Web Developers" could be required to take semi-annual web security courses where they'd learn the most up to date vulnerabilities and how to stop them. I think it's an interesting idea.

    --doc0tis
  • SomeCoder 2007-01-24 16:21
    Old and Cynical:
    It could have been worse. It could have been the doctor's wife that made the software.

    My mom used to work in the medical field and the wives were worse than any of the doctors there.



    I hear that. I'm currently involved in creation some software for a dermatologist. The doctor himself is nice and seems to understand what is and isn't possible and what is going to be in the first release, second, etc.

    The wife on the other hand (she's the office manager) seems to think that everything plus the kitchen sink be included in the FIRST release and if it's not, it's not worth using. I'm betting that when we deliver something, she'll tear it to pieces.

    I find myself not caring though :)
  • marvin_rabbit 2007-01-24 16:31
    snoofle:
    :
    Yah, but any government exam will be fifteen years out of date and test for whatever's politically powerful.

    Thus creating significant, prolonged and heated congressional debate on such topics as:

    Can new code be created, or must it evolve?

    Can data objects be morally cloned?

    If it is not politically correct to point, then should all langauges containing pointers be banned?

    Not to mention that we need to have an Object Inheritance Tax!
  • whocares 2007-01-24 16:38

    So? While I believe that all web developers should be following the latest in programing security (SQL injection, XSS etc...) if you are developer for a phone company where your input device is a telephone you probably don't need to know alot (if anything) about SQL injection.


    ACK, but:
    - It was a bad example ,-)
    - In my case, these people ARE developing our Web App (and have have some 4-5 years of experience in web developing), which used fore some really big companies where data security is in some cases extremly important.
    - These are the same people who don't know how to use a version control software / debugger / (insert whatever basic knowledge you like).
    - The real wtf are the people hiring those "developers"...
  • akatherder 2007-01-24 16:47
    I think the entry barriers and training for endocrinology are slightly higher than programming. That's like saying you couldn't figure out how to be a garbageman by watching Roc.
  • its me 2007-01-24 16:52
    Chris Davis:
    Alex, are you an Al Franken listener? If you're not I'd like to point out that kidding-on-the-square is a phrase Franken has been trying to spread.


    Lies is a great book; something both Democrats and Republicans should read.... However Franken didn't invent the expression: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidding_on_the_square

    -Me
  • KattMan 2007-01-24 16:58
    CynicalTyler:
    rmr:
    For whatever reason, we see absolutely nothing wrong with arguing over the correct position of curly braces for hours.


    You feeble-brained, grub-headed, chair-spinning nasal discharge! It's:

    if(condition) {
    ...
    }

    not:

    if(condition)
    {
    ...
    }

    And I'll fight anyone who types it otherwise!!!


    Then fight me, because I always use the second form, if only to keep the conditional check and the block separated.
    Personally I don't care in cases like this but in HTML editors it is almost a necessity to put ending tags on their own line.
    Who wants to debug something like the following:
    <table>
    <TR>
    <td>Mystuff</td></tr><tr>
    <td>More stuff</td></tr></table>

    Tell me fast how many rows and cells there are, then think about what happens when the ends are hidden because your editor isn't wide enough.
    All I do is translate the same thinking to C and Java.
    I like my blocks clean. If someone else writes it differently I won't touch it unless it causes confusion like the above.
  • sf 2007-01-24 17:02
    ContractorInLivingHell:
    Yes, one of the things that steers people away from medical work is the arrogance of certain people in the profession. So much talent is wasted on "brightest kid in the room" competition and pettiness the likes of which is rarely seen in other lines of work (apart perhaps from the "World of Art"...) Along with that and the high malprac. insurance rates, managed care B.S., understaffed wards and EDs, insane hours and the constant threats of lawsuits, is it any wonder the world of medical care is growing ever-more critically-short of doctors and similar medical practitioners? No surprise at all.

    Try working with physicists. It's much the same experience.
  • Duston 2007-01-24 17:32
    Is a tab 3 spaces or 4?
  • rmg66 2007-01-24 17:36
    Duston:
    Is a tab 3 spaces or 4?


    Four goddammit, Four!

    And ALL tabs should be auto replaced with spaces!
    And All Code should be written in non-variable width Fonts!
  • Marcus 2007-01-24 17:40
    Derrick Pallas:
    When I lectured for the undergraduate Software Engineering class, we spent the first week of class (two lectures) talking about software problems that killed people.


    There's a book called Fatal Defect that talks about this.
  • themagni 2007-01-24 17:48
    Duston:
    Is a tab 3 spaces or 4?


    Unless you're using 7 spaces, you're coding like a caveman.
  • _js_ 2007-01-24 17:48
    Sounds like noone remembers http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/It's_CAD-tastic!.aspx from a few weeks back. A regular professional created a great application, far better than any software engineer could have made.

    Then a horde of software engineers makes the program "better", result: crap that is 10 times worse than the original.

    Computer programming is not a science, it's simple work, like factory work, you make a model, generate basic code, fill in the blanks, sell, repeat.

    Someone who knows the field he's working in and is a real scientist will obviously do far better than a factory drone.
  • Its me 2007-01-24 17:51
    The doctor went somewhere else: to us (She was a breat cancer surgeon or something like that, right?). That was 2-3 years ago, and I was working at the company that this doctor turned to. Regretfully I worked on that project. I dont want to say more since that was a painful era of my career and reliving these moments that i worked with her sends shivers down my spine...
  • rgz 2007-01-24 17:51
    Lookup table
    Yes
    No
    File Not Found

    lol


    Why does that table has five records including a blank field?

    captcha: riaa - Oh I see, yes, there are worse things than scrpit kiddie doctors.
  • ElQuberto 2007-01-24 17:54
    diaphanein:
    Rich:
    diaphanein:
    Ever heard of HIPPA?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIPPA


    No. Is it anything like HIPAA?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIPAA

    Rich


    Thanks, didn't notice the redirect. ;)


    I'm not sure how missing the redirectly would cause you to type it incorrectly twice. Let me guess: you're a "medical software specialist" :)
  • cconroy 2007-01-24 17:59
    diaphanein:
    Patrick:
    My mom's a Gynocologist...and I constantly get lectures about things that don't even pertain to me (a guy)...I just cease to listen.


    Heh.

    "Son, have you been in for your pap smear this year?"
    "No, ma. Have you been in your prostate exam?"


    At my first job, when I first registered for medical insurance, some data monkey must have mistyped and entered me as female instead of male. I found out when I started getting postcards telling me I was overdue for my pap smear.
  • domukun367 2007-01-24 19:04
    rmg66:

    And All Code should be written in non-variable width Fonts!


    Now you're starting to scare me... my faith in basic human intelligence can't let me even imagine code written in variable width fonts.
  • domukun367 2007-01-24 19:04
    rmg66:

    And All Code should be written in non-variable width Fonts!


    Now you're starting to scare me... my faith in basic human intelligence can't let me even imagine code written in variable width fonts.
  • Franz Kafka 2007-01-24 19:05
    Francois:
    I don't work with Access, so here goes a "n00b question":
    If you declare a boolean as the PK for a table, the DB should limit you to 2 entries, right? Does Access check constraints and FK's at insert time?


    You can do a clustered index and get multiple values. I'm not sure if Access' DB engine allows this for PKeys, though.
  • Franz Kafka 2007-01-24 19:12
    Patrick:
    My mom's a Gynocologist...and I constantly get lectures about things that don't even pertain to me (a guy)...I just cease to listen.


    I'd probably take the opportunity to ask embarrassing questions. Lord knows I do anyway.
  • Panagiotis Papadomitsos 2007-01-24 19:13
    I have only one thing to say: o kosmos den paei kala...
  • Shan 2007-01-24 19:17
    cconroy:
    At my first job, when I first registered for medical insurance, some data monkey must have mistyped and entered me as female instead of male. I found out when I started getting postcards telling me I was overdue for my pap smear.


    Not exactly related, but I had a similar problem a few years ago, relating to my name and gender. I'd just started a new job and Christmas came around and everyone got their bonus's/gifts. In the office we had about 20-30 guys and two girls, so when the gifts went round there were 3 HUGE gift baskets and 20-30 envelopes containing gift certificates. As my name was Shannon, one of the lackys in accounts (another building) had assumed I was a girl and I'd recieved a rather large hamper complete with wine, chocolate, food, champagne and a gift voucher for a department store, where as all the "men" had recieved a low denomination voucher for a local hardware store. Talk about double standards.

    I finally made the decision to correct the accounts department when I started to recive information on Maternity leave, and company sponsered pap smears, and mammogram notices in my in tray.

  • Plonk 2007-01-24 19:23
    Mr.<undefined>:
    I had a CEO that was just like this. He used to say "programming is just a control+c control+v job". His formation? Publicity.

    CAPTCHA: darwin. I hope this kind of people die soon.


    Well at least he understood the concept of reuse at it's most primitive level.

    I suppose what he was talking about was writing code. Developing software is more than writing code.
  • EnterUserNameHere 2007-01-24 19:26
    snoofle:

    Thus creating significant, prolonged and heated congressional debate on such topics as:

    Can new code be created, or must it evolve?

    Can data objects be morally cloned?

    If it is not politically correct to point, then should all langauges containing pointers be banned?

    ...



    VERY nice! I enjoyed that. :)
  • sjaveed 2007-01-24 19:53
    whocares:
    I know people with Bachelor/Master in IT who didn't know what a SQL injection is before i told them...


    I don't find that odd. They might still have known the technique just not the name. I remember a few years ago when I was being interviewed for a web-related position I was asked what the DOM was. Despite the fact that I'd done extensive Javascript and DHTML development and was completely versed in it, I didn't know that's what it was called. Consider it ignorance but I told them I didn't know and went on to talk about documents, forms etc from a Javascript POV.

    Don't judge a book by its cover I guess :)

    captcha: dreadlocks
  • Samah 2007-01-24 19:58
    your mom:
    it's LED! LED!!!!! "lead" pronounced how you meant it is the name of an element. that's all. sorry for the intrusion. really, i am. it's a sickness...

    Actually, either is correct.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=led
  • singing pig 2007-01-24 19:58
    Ilya:
    Don't argue with a doctor.


    It wastes your time and annoys the doctor.
  • Samah 2007-01-24 19:59
    rmg66:
    Duston:
    Is a tab 3 spaces or 4?


    Four goddammit, Four!

    And ALL tabs should be auto replaced with spaces!
    And All Code should be written in non-variable width Fonts!

    I use a width of 2, with spaces of course (tab characters are evil).

    Also, best coding font ever is Bitstream Vera Sans Mono (8 point):
    http://www.bitstream.com/font_rendering/products/dev_fonts/vera.html
  • berk 2007-01-24 20:27
    rmr:
    The stuff programmers argue over (often on this site) is extremely petty.


    No it isn't.
  • chrismcb 2007-01-24 20:49
    nobody:

    At least, when my stuff fails, nobody dies.


    True... I doubt if computer bug has ever led to massive phone or power outages. I'm sure they've never caused multi million dollar investments to slam into a far off planet. Its probably not possible to write code in such a way to accidentally iradiate someone enough that they die.

    Yeah you are right. Worst case scenario, no one dies, maybe the network just comes to a grinded halt which results in billions of dollars of productivity.

    Of course I don't think liscensing is the answer either.
  • chrismcb 2007-01-24 21:00
    CynicalTyler:
    rmr:
    For whatever reason, we see absolutely nothing wrong with arguing over the correct position of curly braces for hours.


    You feeble-brained, grub-headed, chair-spinning nasal discharge! It's:

    if(condition) {
    ...
    }

    not:

    if(condition)
    {
    ...
    }

    And I'll fight anyone who types it otherwise!!!


    MEMO:
    Attention folks. We have had a rash of keyboard failures in the IT department. He have tracked the problem down to too much use of the "Enter" key. Please refrain from using the "Enter" key as much as possible. We have discovered one way to minimize the use of the "Enter" key, is to not place an carriage/return and line feed combnination at the end of any line that begins a new block of code.

    One nice side effect from doing this is an enormous space savings in disk space. Our accounting department has calculated a .00043% savings in diskspace. This will allow us to save one half a penny each year in purchases of new disk space.
  • chrismcb 2007-01-24 21:22
    Samah:
    your mom:
    it's LED! LED!!!!! "lead" pronounced how you meant it is the name of an element. that's all. sorry for the intrusion. really, i am. it's a sickness...

    Actually, either is correct.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=led


    I am not the best grammarian. But I don't see anything on the quoted page to lead me to believe one can substitue "lead" for "led." "led" is past tense/past particple for "lead." It says "led" can be replaced with leading and leads, but not with lead.
    KG can lead a team of developers. Or he leads a team, but he can't "has lead teams".

    "lead" is NOT the past tense or past particple of "lead."
  • kimbo305 2007-01-24 21:31
    Hold on mister -- you're trying to dump the quality issue on the construction workers.
    The Boston Globe said that the first thing the contractors did was to field-test the design and immediately reported to the design firm that the design was suspect. I know construction workers and continually digging up and remaking the city are a perennial joke, but they weren't at fault in this case.
  • SoupDog 2007-01-24 21:46
    Sounds each member of my current business team.
  • JarFil 2007-01-24 22:02
    OMG! That happened to me! What a deja vu... if it wasn't an endocrynologist but a (anonymized), I would swear I know who this guy is.

    All this story happened to me exactly the same way. He had an awful Access app, wanted to "clean it a bit", then sell it. Even had some weird plan on how to profit from it. Only it was completely un-sellable, and after repeatedly trying to show him what was wrong, all I got was some kind of talk down about how medicine is so complex and programming so simple. Even the outcome was exactly the same in my case: we split ways, and he still was trying to find someone to get on the job.

    Really, if this was the same guy, ¡what a way of knowing he's still trying to sell that horrible app! xD

    Either that, or it's some kind of a doctor related disease ^o^
  • random_coder() 2007-01-24 22:18
    Oh God - I thought I was alone. We have a customer in similar straits - in perpetual development of a medical app. They've got a nightmare of a network that they won't clean up, have bounced from AIX to Windows to Linux in their development target (with no code actually being written)...

    It's good to know that I'm not the only one suffering the insufferable.
  • cklam 2007-01-24 23:25
    RevMike:
    rmr:
    ContractorInLivingHell:
    . . .So much talent is wasted on "brightest kid in the room" competition and pettiness the likes of which is rarely seen in other lines of work (apart perhaps from the "World of Art"...). . .


    You obviously haven't spent much time around programmers! For whatever reason, we see absolutely nothing wrong with arguing over the correct position of curly braces for hours. The stuff programmers argue over (often on this site) is extremely petty.




    I absolutely agree. The braces issues are minor compared to the choice of editor.


    MY $0.02: vi ... forever
  • foxyshadis 2007-01-24 23:27
    :
    Yah, but any government exam will be fifteen years out of date and test for whatever's politically powerful.

    Ahaha, I can just imagine being tested for competence in ADA.
  • cklam 2007-01-24 23:27
    aaron:
    I had to deal with similar BS at a previous job working for a municipality. We had a police chief that moonlighted as an IT consultant and a fire chief that knew enough to be dangerous. I would routinely get calls from the fire dept lackeys telling me that there was a problem and that the chief had "already looked at it" which generally made the problem worse.

    for example: we installed a second computer. they said nothing about putting it on the network, but the fire chief went out and purchased a router-switch from walmart and hooked it up to use for both those computers. Needless to say, that caused some problems with software that was mapped directly to the IP of the first computer. Who gets called to clean up this mess that he created? the alleged "inept IT department".

    If someone hires me as a specialist, I would think it's because they believe I know what I'm doing. What's with the micromanagement then? Just tell me what you want and let go!

    captcha: "pirates" arrrgggh!


    I hope you were clever and issued an support incident report to your management every time ....
  • foxyshadis 2007-01-24 23:40
    domukun367:
    rmg66:

    And All Code should be written in non-variable width Fonts!


    Now you're starting to scare me... my faith in basic human intelligence can't let me even imagine code written in variable width fonts.

    That depends on how variable you consider the width differences of bold/italic in many fonts (in my experience very few editors and no professional IDEs will correct for the skew).
  • Samah 2007-01-24 23:45
    chrismcb:
    Samah:
    your mom:
    it's LED! LED!!!!! "lead" pronounced how you meant it is the name of an element. that's all. sorry for the intrusion. really, i am. it's a sickness...

    Actually, either is correct.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=led


    I am not the best grammarian. But I don't see anything on the quoted page to lead me to believe one can substitue "lead" for "led." "led" is past tense/past particple for "lead." It says "led" can be replaced with leading and leads, but not with lead.
    KG can lead a team of developers. Or he leads a team, but he can't "has lead teams".

    "lead" is NOT the past tense or past particple of "lead."

    Oops, I misread (not misred) the page. My bad :/
  • Samah 2007-01-24 23:48
    foxyshadis:
    domukun367:
    rmg66:

    And All Code should be written in non-variable width Fonts!


    Now you're starting to scare me... my faith in basic human intelligence can't let me even imagine code written in variable width fonts.

    That depends on how variable you consider the width differences of bold/italic in many fonts (in my experience very few editors and no professional IDEs will correct for the skew).

    Eclipse does. So does PL/SQL Developer IIRC. TOAD does but it tends to clip the edges of the characters in some cases.
  • cklam 2007-01-24 23:52
    Rich:
    diaphanein:
    Ever heard of HIPPA?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIPPA


    No. Is it anything like HIPAA?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIPAA

    Rich


    Yes.

    Both links open the same wikipedia article
  • operagost 2007-01-25 00:02
    Chris Davis:
    Alex, are you an Al Franken listener? If you're not I'd like to point out that kidding-on-the-square is a phrase Franken has been trying to spread.

    Someone listens to Al Franken?
  • Brady Kelly 2007-01-25 01:37
    rmr:
    You obviously haven't spent much time around programmers! For whatever reason, we see absolutely nothing wrong with arguing over the correct position of curly braces for hours. The stuff programmers argue over (often on this site) is extremely petty.

    That's absurd. There is nothing to argue about; they belong below the line declaring the block they enclose.
  • paulg 2007-01-25 02:59
    Wow. Flashbacks to events with my family.
    I'm the black sheep in a family of doctors. Instead of going into the honored profession, I decided to waste my time in the IT industry.
    Doctors know all, do all and can see all. They have taken the god complex to a whole new level. To make up for it though - there is nothing as pathetic as a sick doctor. Even worse than a sick kitten.
  • Anonymous Coward 2007-01-25 03:43
    berk:
    rmr:
    The stuff programmers argue over (often on this site) is extremely petty.


    No it isn't.


    yes it is.
  • Jim 2007-01-25 03:45
    "All Code should be written in non-variable width Fonts!"
    Amen brother, amen
  • Franz Kafka 2007-01-25 04:09
    foxyshadis:
    domukun367:
    rmg66:

    And All Code should be written in non-variable width Fonts!


    Now you're starting to scare me... my faith in basic human intelligence can't let me even imagine code written in variable width fonts.

    That depends on how variable you consider the width differences of bold/italic in many fonts (in my experience very few editors and no professional IDEs will correct for the skew).


    I use emacs. What is this 'variable width' you speak of?
  • vr602 2007-01-25 04:31

    "And by signing off on the design, the engineer is assuming legal responsibility for his/her design. When was the last time you saw a programmer do that? "

    I have to carry expensive insurance against negligence in my code ( professional indemnity policy ), otherwise I don't get to do the contract. So yes, I effectively assume legal responsibility for it. Not that I need bullying into doing a proper job, you understand...
  • Leo 2007-01-25 04:59
    Ever tried Proggy Clean et al?

    http://www.proggyfonts.com/index.php?menu=download

    Yes, I'm as petty-minded as we all :)
  • ad 2007-01-25 05:08
    As my name was Shannon

    Sounds like you decided to "correct" yourself rather than tangle with the demons over at accounting! :)
  • Rimbaud 2007-01-25 05:09

    As a Java/C++ programmer, people somehow think it's appropriate to ask me to spend 2 hours cleaning viruses and spyware off their computer for them. Free of charge of course.


    I found the easy way out of this: use Linux or Mac (or Amiga or OS/2) as your OS and then just say you don't know how to use Windows :-)

    Works brilliantly.

    I moved my mum to Ubuntu as well :-)
  • Anonymous 2007-01-25 05:10
    rmg66:
    Duston:
    Is a tab 3 spaces or 4?


    Four goddammit, Four!

    And ALL tabs should be auto replaced with spaces!


    If I want to put 4 spaces, I will tape space 4 times, or create a macro. But I type tab, and spect a tab to put into code.
    If your editor is broken, change editor, avoid broken editors.

    Imagine this code:

    if (whatever){
    foo();
    }

    now with withespace visible, and lines:

    00: if (whatever){[CR]
    01: [TAB]foo();[CR]
    02: }[CR]

    If you are on the line 01, and you press the [right] key, you move to the f on foo.

    Now checks this monstruosity:


    00: if (whatever){[CR]
    01: [SPACE][SPACE][SPACE][SPACE]foo();[CR]
    02: }[CR]

    Now to get into "f", I have to press [right][right][right][right]

    Yea, I know people have broken editors. Get a right one, god dawn!.
    Theres even text hints that help Vi and Emacs to know about the tab size the original author made.
  • Martijn 2007-01-25 05:10
    Since programming is largely a logic thing, most people think they can do it. Truth is that logical thinking is a rare trait in humans.
  • DamnedYankee 2007-01-25 05:29
    Francois:
    I don't work with Access, so here goes a "n00b question":
    If you declare a boolean as the PK for a table, the DB should limit you to 2 entries, right? Does Access check constraints and FK's at insert time?

    Primary and Unique are different attributes for an index.
  • Ottokar 2007-01-25 05:31
    Hello Folks,

    I guess you haven't got the real WTF. It is this:

    The famous doctor didn't argue with knowledge or years of experience. He simply said "you don't have license". And THAT is creepily. :-)

    In it deepest core it means, that watching E.R. is indeed enough education to get a medical degree.

    I read a fantasy book a couple of weeks ago. A crown of prices and princesses where wondering why all of their mothers died by birthing them. And a wizard meant "It is because you are rich. Your mother hired a doctor for the birth."

    Regards
  • mdmyass 2007-01-25 05:32
    Kaosadvokit:
    The truly sad part is that the doctor is a more accomplished/skilled software developer than many that [attempt to] make a living as such.


    Google the following names:

    Dr. Ray Muzyka
    Dr. Greg Zeschuk
    Dr. Augustine Yip

  • Earl Purple 2007-01-25 05:34
    Francois:
    I don't work with Access, so here goes a "n00b question":
    If you declare a boolean as the PK for a table, the DB should limit you to 2 entries, right? Does Access check constraints and FK's at insert time?


    3 entries. True, False and FileNotFound.
  • MrBester 2007-01-25 05:46
    It's LED! LED!!!!! "lead" pronounced how you meant it is the name of an element. that's all. sorry for the intrusion. really, i am. it's a sickness...

    It's a sign of the times that because I've seen this so many times (and glossed over it) I actually had to use Ctrl-F on the page...
  • Earl Purple 2007-01-25 05:47
    I write blocks like this:


    if ( condition )
    {
    do_stuff();
    }


    with 4-space indent.

    Functions that take multi-line parameters I also indent but the opening and closing parentheses are half-indented (2 spaces) so:

    std::transform
    (
    myVector.begin(),
    myVector.end(),
    std::back_inserter( target_vector ),
    std::bind2nd( some_function, param )
    };


    Sometimes in transform I will allow the first two parameters on the same line, i.e. the begin() and end(), and similarly if any are "grouped".

    I may also always leave a blank line (no code) on either side of such a statement (although it may be a line with an opening or closing brace on it).
  • justleftthecompanythankgoodness 2007-01-25 05:50
    you think software development is bad - try dealing with a no-longer-practicing specialist doctor who decided to start a medical server company, and decides to jump into every technical email thread.

    "The packet loss problem is significant.
    A 1% packet loss causes a significant reduction in throughput for regular TCP/IP, Sometimes 30%!
    Raw DICOM studies fail competely with 2% packet loss."

    *headdesk*

    Trust me, it's no easier from the operations side.

    captcha:craaazy
  • Who, me? 2007-01-25 05:56
    chrismcb:
    ...maybe the network just comes to a grinded halt which results in billions of dollars of productivity.


    Considering how much web browsing goes on in my office, I must agree with this statement.
  • NameNotFoundException 2007-01-25 05:57
    Earl Purple:
    I write blocks like this:


    if ( condition )
    {
    do_stuff();
    }


    with 4-space indent.

    Functions that take multi-line parameters I also indent but the opening and closing parentheses are half-indented (2 spaces) so:

    std::transform
    (
    myVector.begin(),
    myVector.end(),
    std::back_inserter( target_vector ),
    std::bind2nd( some_function, param )
    };


    Sometimes in transform I will allow the first two parameters on the same line, i.e. the begin() and end(), and similarly if any are "grouped".

    I may also always leave a blank line (no code) on either side of such a statement (although it may be a line with an opening or closing brace on it).


    How exceedingly interesting! I do it differently! Not only that, but I also use comments.
  • prilmeie 2007-01-25 06:14
    I normally don't reply to daily WTF's but this time ... It is so true, I have sworn myself to never never never ever work with medical doctors again. They are the worst I know it all I have ever come across.
  • real_aardvark 2007-01-25 06:48
    [quote user="Steamer2k"][quote user="diaphanein"]One of the reasons I believe software developement should be a licensed profession. i.e. You have to pass a government exam before you're allowed to practice in certain areas.[quote]

    That's a nice theory--unfortunately it would mean that software would be managed by the same people that run the DMV.[/quote]

    You mean it isn't already?

    Anyway, at least with the DMV it would only be a state-wide exam. You could always move state if you fail ... which might come in handy to a few of us on this site.

    Hmmm. The quoting system appears to have screwed up. Perhaps I should have tried "Reply" instead.
  • Marek 2007-01-25 07:52
    rmg66:
    Duston:
    Is a tab 3 spaces or 4?


    Four goddammit, Four!

    And ALL tabs should be auto replaced with spaces!
    And All Code should be written in non-variable width Fonts!


    What the hell have Fonts (in CAPS, even) to do with the source code???

    captcha: burned (in Hell I suppose)
  • snoofle 2007-01-25 08:16
    Shan:
    cconroy:
    At my first job, when I first registered for medical insurance, some data monkey must have mistyped and entered me as female instead of male. I found out when I started getting postcards telling me I was overdue for my pap smear.


    Not exactly related, but I had a similar problem a few years ago, relating to my name and gender. I'd just started a new job and Christmas came around and everyone got their bonus's/gifts. In the office we had about 20-30 guys and two girls, so when the gifts went round there were 3 HUGE gift baskets and 20-30 envelopes containing gift certificates. As my name was Shannon, one of the lackys in accounts (another building) had assumed I was a girl and I'd recieved a rather large hamper complete with wine, chocolate, food, champagne and a gift voucher for a department store, where as all the "men" had recieved a low denomination voucher for a local hardware store. Talk about double standards.

    I finally made the decision to correct the accounts department when I started to recive information on Maternity leave, and company sponsered pap smears, and mammogram notices in my in tray.


    I think you missed a stellar opportunity to mess with people's heads. Just imagine the following:

    You: Hi Doc, the company told me to come in for my pap smear
    Doc: Um, you know you're a guy, right?
    You: Yeah, but HR recommended I have it done, and I want to be a good employee...
    Doc: (wtf?)

    Just imagine the explanations on the insurance forms...

    Doc: severe problem encountered taking sample from patient...
  • snoofle 2007-01-25 08:25
    Anonymous Coward:
    berk:
    rmr:
    The stuff programmers argue over (often on this site) is extremely petty.


    No it isn't.


    yes it is.

    File not found!

    (sorry, couldn't resist)
  • lol @ forum software 2007-01-25 08:29
    he's the same guy that developed this forum software!
  • thorin 2007-01-25 08:34
    Personally I'm a fan of GNU style.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_True_Brace_Style#GNU_style
  • Cthulhu 2007-01-25 08:38
    my style (c)*


    void func(BOOL*r)
    //this function does very little
    {
    for (int i=0;i<10;i++)
    //iterate over array
    {
    if (r[i]==FILE_NOT_FOUND) i=11;
    }
    }


    *you may only use my style if you have explicit permission from me. This isn't some K&R-like slap-dash approach, this art form took time to develop.
  • Eam 2007-01-25 08:45
    I'm an Allman, you can K&R if you want, just let it bump like you got Scott Storch tied up in the trunk.

    Now that Visual Studio has a built-in pretty printer, it doesn't bother me which style people use. Actually, it never really bothered me unless they used some completely brain-dead style.

    There is one thing I don't understand, though. I use Allman so the braces line up vertically, but what's with putting else/catch/finally on their own lines?

    if (yeah)
    {
    }
    else
    {
    }

    It seems a bit excessive to me.
  • TheRider 2007-01-25 08:59
    cklam:
    RevMike:
    rmr:
    ContractorInLivingHell:
    . . .So much talent is wasted on "brightest kid in the room" competition and pettiness the likes of which is rarely seen in other lines of work (apart perhaps from the "World of Art"...). . .


    You obviously haven't spent much time around programmers! For whatever reason, we see absolutely nothing wrong with arguing over the correct position of curly braces for hours. The stuff programmers argue over (often on this site) is extremely petty.




    I absolutely agree. The braces issues are minor compared to the choice of editor.


    MY $0.02: vi ... forever


    2 cents? And I always thought that vi is for free.
  • WIldpeaks 2007-01-25 09:21
    The Real WF(tm) is the lack of sonic screwdriver: flip the switch and poof, no bugs
  • Rich 2007-01-25 09:49
    doc0tis:
    if you are developer for a phone company where your input device is a telephone you probably don't need to know alot (if anything) about SQL injection.


    UPDATE online_user_data SET redirect_no='2221113333' WHERE account_name='jhacker'; DELETE FROM billing_data; --';

    I worked out SQL injection on my own about two months after I started learning it from scratch. It was a natural extension of "Is it possible to execute multiple SQL statements in a single query?"

    Rich
  • nosay 2007-01-25 09:50
    The only customer who never paid me was a doctor (with an effed-up Xenix box...).

    Captcha: gotcha
  • tinkerghost 2007-01-25 09:56
    nobody:
    diaphanein:
    One of the reasons I believe software developement should be a licensed profession.


    Living in the Boston area, I've heard of WTF (as well as Oh, Sh!t!) from licensed engineers. Holding up concrete ceiling panels (yes, ceiling panels) from bolts GLUED into concrete. It is supposed to work when done properly, but this is asking construction workers to be very careful with lots of bolts. And of course, the test parameters were adjusted so the work done wouldn't have to be re-done at contractor expense.
    At least, when my stuff fails, nobody dies.

    Actually, from what I understand, there is a concrete outer shell with metal rods inserted into it that are what actually hold up the ceiling panels. The 'glue' used is actually an epoxy resin and the drill & glue method is supposed to be stronger than embedding 'J' bolts into the outer casing. The problem with the Boston road is that the outer concrete wasn't to spec & the bolts were rusty when inserted. This type of construction is fairly common for tunnels, unfortunately it requires competent contractors not ones who are selling semi-loads of steel girders for scrap as they come into the construction site.
  • real_aardvark 2007-01-25 10:00
    Rich:
    doc0tis:
    if you are developer for a phone company where your input device is a telephone you probably don't need to know alot (if anything) about SQL injection.


    UPDATE online_user_data SET redirect_no='2221113333' WHERE account_name='jhacker'; DELETE FROM billing_data; --';

    I worked out SQL injection on my own about two months after I started learning it from scratch. It was a natural extension of "Is it possible to execute multiple SQL statements in a single query?"

    Rich


    Funny: I don't remember reading anything about UPDATE, SET, WHERE or DELETE FROM in either the H.323 or the SIP manuals.

    RTF original post ...
  • Rich 2007-01-25 10:48
    cklam:

    Yes.

    Both links open the same wikipedia article


    So please tell me what HIPPA stands for?

    Rich
  • Rich 2007-01-25 11:00
    real_aardvark:


    Funny: I don't remember reading anything about UPDATE, SET, WHERE or DELETE FROM in either the H.323 or the SIP manuals.

    RTF original post ...


    Funny, I don't remember reading anything about H.323 or SIP in the thread I was replying to. Perhaps you would care to RTF it yourself then STFU

    http://thedailywtf.com/Comments/Trust_Me,_I'm_A_Doctor.aspx?pg=2#113221

    Rich
  • pinguis 2007-01-25 11:33
    TheRider:
    cklam:
    RevMike:
    rmr:
    ContractorInLivingHell:
    . . .So much talent is wasted on "brightest kid in the room" competition and pettiness the likes of which is rarely seen in other lines of work (apart perhaps from the "World of Art"...). . .


    You obviously haven't spent much time around programmers! For whatever reason, we see absolutely nothing wrong with arguing over the correct position of curly braces for hours. The stuff programmers argue over (often on this site) is extremely petty.




    I absolutely agree. The braces issues are minor compared to the choice of editor.


    MY $0.02: vi ... forever


    2 cents? And I always thought that vi is for free.


    Maybe he sent them to Uganda.
  • marvin_rabbit 2007-01-25 12:51
    berk:
    rmr:
    The stuff programmers argue over (often on this site) is extremely petty.


    No it isn't.

    <DING!> Sorry. Time's up.
  • Wang-Lo 2007-01-25 16:40
    un.sined:
    diaphanein:

    One of the reasons I believe software developement should be a licensed profession. i.e. You have to pass a government exam before you're allowed to practice in certain areas.


    I'm quite glad that it's not. Do you honestly expect the government to come up with a set of questions that isn't language specific, or out of date by the time people actually get to take the test?

    Besides, becoming a "licensed professional" (architect, medical doctor, lawyer) requires schooling in addition to passing the test. I've never been one for school, mostly because I learn at my own pace, typically by reading and experimenting. Lectures and the like have never helped me.

    What for the people like me?


    You would be on the license granting examination board.

    -Wang-Lo.
  • Oraclie 2007-01-25 18:29
    Stop fighting about that...

    I would fight anybody who insists on using spaces instead of tabs....


    (captcha "vern"?? who is vern?)
  • cklam 2007-01-25 21:39
    Rich:
    cklam:

    Yes.

    Both links open the same wikipedia article


    So please tell me what HIPPA stands for?

    Rich


    Who cares - I am only stating that both links open the same wikipedia article ... that's all.

    BTW, I know what HIPAA is - but HIPPA appears to be a typo, maybe ? So wikipedia does take precautions against typos (by using SOUNDEX or just "hard coding" the most common typos, maybe ?

    Who knows ...

  • cklam 2007-01-25 21:41
    pinguis:
    TheRider:
    cklam:
    RevMike:
    rmr:
    ContractorInLivingHell:
    . . .So much talent is wasted on "brightest kid in the room" competition and pettiness the likes of which is rarely seen in other lines of work (apart perhaps from the "World of Art"...). . .


    You obviously haven't spent much time around programmers! For whatever reason, we see absolutely nothing wrong with arguing over the correct position of curly braces for hours. The stuff programmers argue over (often on this site) is extremely petty.




    I absolutely agree. The braces issues are minor compared to the choice of editor.


    MY $0.02: vi ... forever


    2 cents? And I always thought that vi is for free.


    Maybe he sent them to Uganda.


    $0.02 indicates the faith that my particular submission is not completely worthless/useless ...
  • ComputerForumUser 2007-01-26 06:53
    My boss used to be like that - I was doing something really simple that he was too busy to do. I was presented with a forum that was practically all the components of a realtime multiplayer roleplaying game where you could do practically anything. It just needed wiring up into the actual game.

    PS. Is there a data type with only one possible value, for when you only ever want one row in a table?
  • Fabian 2007-01-26 10:23
    Oraclie:
    Stop fighting about that...

    I would fight anybody who insists on using spaces instead of tabs....


    We will fight shoulder to shoulder!

    Oraclie:
    (captcha "vern"?? who is vern?)


    I'm guessing the guy from the movie Rainman:
    "Vern, my main man. V, E, R, N, Vern."
  • Eeby 2007-01-26 13:22
    A few doctors I know have told me exactly the same thing, including the part about arrogance. One guy told me med school was pure hell just because of the high and mighty attitude of the other students. On the other hand the docs who told me this were all pretty cool people.
  • Foo Duck 2007-01-26 17:03
    LOL, guess this "Doctor" isn't a shrink either. Unbelievable, he can't even place him self into the roll of an other person with years of experience.

    These guys think there god or something
  • AdT 2007-01-26 18:26
    snoofle:
    If it is not politically correct to point, then should all langauges containing pointers be banned?


    Don't give 'em ideas.
  • Lollipop 2007-01-26 20:33
    -Sigh- Such individuals really do give those in healthcare a bad name, and even keep out genuine people.

    Okay, so software development isn't Endocrinology. That doesn't mean you don't still have to form a coherent base of knowledge in order to make software as effectively as you practice Endocrinology. Just because you feel your line of work is more difficult than a certain skill does not mean you automatically obtain that skill when educating yourself in your line of work. I very much dislike people like this...and of course, they don't just reside in medicine. ;)
  • randombarn 2007-01-27 16:08
    I used to hang out with a guy who had a PhD. Occasionally, when the group would have a disagreement about this, that, or the other, he would make his point, then ask, "Who in this room has a PhD?" while he raised his hand.

    Of course, we shut him down after about the third time by all saying in answer to his question (in unison), "...in THEATER!"
  • Unnamed guy 2007-01-28 18:34
    Besides, becoming a "licensed professional" (architect, medical doctor, lawyer) requires schooling in addition to passing the test. I've never been one for school, mostly because I learn at my own pace, typically by reading and experimenting. Lectures and the like have never helped me.

    What for the people like me?


    Going by the way things are currently done, you'd be grandfathered into whatever program was put in place, but for new programmers, there could be a distinction between 'tradesman' programmers and 'engineering' programmers. You'd have to be a 'tradesman' programmer to work in programming at all, which would likely require some trade school and several years working under someone who is already a 'tradesman' programmer. An 'engineering' programmer, on the other hand, would have the ability to take legal responsibility for code written. To become certified in his capacity, he'd need schooling at an accredited school, as well as several years working under another certified 'engineering' programmer.

    Honestly, I think such a program could increase the overall skill level of programmers, and let employers know that when they're hiring a person who claims to be able to do the job, they've gone through a standardized process which ensures that they might actually be able to do it.
  • nah 2007-01-28 21:32
    "at least when my stuff fails, nobody dies."

    Not necessarily true for all software, though.
  • Andy Havens 2007-01-28 23:21
    Back in 1988-91 when I was installing PCs and LANs for docs in the Longwood Medical Area near Boston, I'd get all kinds of doo-dah like this.

    My fave was the time an MD/PhD chewed me out because I hadn't adequately explained to him that the upgrade of his monochrome EGA monitor to a color EGA monitor would not automatically make his B&W laser prints come out in color.

    He'd asked me to upgrade his monitor to a color one. That's all. Then he got pissed at me because his prints were still in B&W. And when I tried to explain the universe to him, he told me; 1) I didn't need to talk down to him, because he was a doctor and understood things better than I ever could and, 2) there was a good chance he wasn't going to pay me, since I'd left vital info out of my services, and, 3) he might sue me for the cost of a color laser printer...

    What happened was he paid me for the EGA upgrade and he shut up, because he needed me to format a couple dozen Lotus Notes / Sigma Plot charts for him for his next conference.

    Funny how that works.
  • Anonymous 2007-01-29 00:14
    Franz Kafka:

    I use emacs. What is this 'variable width' you speak of?


    I use Emacs, too, and have been using it for 13 years.

    Since version 21.x (many years ago), Emacs has got the ability to display variable width fonts. Try to start Emacs in X11 (or use NTEmacs on Windows) and then C-h i to go to the Info directory. See the variable-width fonts? Try also M-x list-faces-display.

    (I hope you do know that Emacs can do syntax-highlighting. It has been doing so for at least 13 years.)

    Please help by stopping spreading myths about Emacs.
  • Anonymous 2007-01-29 00:18
    Rimbaud:

    I found the easy way out of this: use Linux or Mac (or Amiga or OS/2) as your OS and then just say you don't know how to use Windows :-)


    I confirm that this works! It has worked for me for the past 12 years -- after I completely switched to Linux and got rid of the nonsense and headaches of MS's mess.

    Learn to refuse, and learn to do it politely.

    (A part of my telling those people "I don't use Windows" is to educate them that computer != Windows. There are things other than Windows. At least, they'll learn that at least 1 "guru" uses something other than "Windows".)
  • Mikey Dub 2007-01-30 08:45
    Oh god this article made me cringe in horror at the memories. I too have been in the unfortunate position of developing clinical software for "medical specialists", with the added benefits of nurses being employed as BAs through the whole process. How people who are so intelligent within their field can be so utterly clueless in another is beyond me.

    I remember distinctly having an ongoing argument for nearly six months with our project head "medical specialist" as he did not believe that our 5,000+ KLOC application, outsourced to a software development company in India and subsequently going three years and $2 million over budget, might benefit from an object model or (any sort of) code re-use... but that's another story (even though the system had been extensively architected over a number of years the developers in India believed that creating a source file for each class was adequate to implement the required structure) ...
  • REED 2007-01-30 14:16
    OMG, this subject matter is "Spot ON". I've dealt with many egotistical docs in my time. The worse are the ones in the military (ranked Maj or higher). They get some book (Oracle for dummies lets say) and next thing you know they are experts.
  • tawani 2007-01-31 08:43
    And I thought stuff like this happened only to me.
    I just read "Medicine in 24 hours". Now I'm ready to start giving out prescriptions.

    Addendum (2007-01-31 08:49):
    I started out developing software programs for a Nursing Home (L***) chain in Maryland ... TO tell you the truth, (maybe I was young) I've never met a more annoying bunch. The nurses rarely got it and most of the doctors never got it.
  • icelava 2007-02-01 03:43
    It was a wise move, no, in fact it was the _only_ move for this engagement - to walk away from it. There are customers in this world that are not worth the pain and effort. This is one blatant example.

    This doctor can continue to sit on his high throne to feed his pride and remain isolated from the rest of the world.

    Even better, i'd like to see him in conversation with the President of US.
  • aa 2007-02-03 13:00
    _js_:
    Sounds like noone remembers http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/It's_CAD-tastic!.aspx from a few weeks back. A regular professional created a great application, far better than any software engineer could have made.

    Then a horde of software engineers makes the program "better", result: crap that is 10 times worse than the original.

    Computer programming is not a science, it's simple work, like factory work, you make a model, generate basic code, fill in the blanks, sell, repeat.

    Someone who knows the field he's working in and is a real scientist will obviously do far better than a factory drone.
  • aa 2007-02-03 13:02
    _js_:
    Sounds like noone remembers http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/It's_CAD-tastic!.aspx from a few weeks back. A regular professional created a great application, far better than any software engineer could have made.

    Then a horde of software engineers makes the program "better", result: crap that is 10 times worse than the original.

    Computer programming is not a science, it's simple work, like factory work, you make a model, generate basic code, fill in the blanks, sell, repeat.

    Someone who knows the field he's working in and is a real scientist will obviously do far better than a factory drone.
  • Patrick 2007-02-06 08:18
    Yeah, I wonder about this one too . . . why would anyone do something like that? I mean, even if you wanted a translation table so that you could convert True, False, and Null (because those are obviously the only three rows that could possibly be in the table) into other strings like, "smart," "dumb," and "indeterminate," you could put all of that in a more robust lookup table.

    In sum . . . I think this part was made up.


    CAPTCHA: gygax - huh?
  • cbciv 2007-02-07 14:17
    ElQuberto:
    Meh, I would of said something about him being a mechanic.


    I'm sorry, but this particular error drives me nuts. You "would have said" or "would've said", not "would of said". If it helps to have a geeky analogy, it's vaguely similar to writing the following line in C:

    if (i = 1) { /* do something */}

    The "him being a mechanic" is also incorrect. It should be "his being a mechanic". The gerund "being" is the subject of the prepositional phrase and "his" modifies the gerund. I know that I'm wasting my time on this one as it's so common, but what the hell.
  • deworde 2007-12-05 14:13
    fennec:
    I have a friend who's pre-med, and describes the first two years of her pre-med experience as "academic hazing". While I appreciate that people really don't want unqualified doctors, there are incentives to artificially constrict the supply to help keep doctors scarce... and drive up salaries...


    I think you may be confusing a large gang of arrogant douches with a conspiracy.
  • thatguyoverthere 2008-03-19 17:59
    You people do realize that the title "Doctor" is not limited to the medical profession.

    But then we live in a world where the Applied Sciences school of the college I went to was absorbed into the Business School...because "all programming is is making flashy web-pages, Optics is just how to use laser pointers, and we can just shut down the Nuclear Engineering department because it'll boost our PR as being anti-war!"