We'll Be In Touch Maybe

« Return to Article
  • Independent 2007-08-06 16:37
    Holy cow, I think I interviewed Alvin a week ago.
  • Jonh Robo 2007-08-06 16:43
    ...my resume is 6 pages long to cover all of my IT experience spanning nearly 30 years.
    I figure if the hiring manager really wants to know me they have the info.
    Sure, they can stop reading as soon as they have the info they need.
    They don't have to read all of it.

    I know this is not the "accepted practice" for resume length...but I'm exceptional!
  • Joe 2007-08-06 16:47
    I think Alvin works in my company. Is this the guy whose code blocks include comments like

    "Code sample provided by UltimateFreeCode.com"...

    Captcha: onomatopoeia - too many letters for a captcha.
  • Bob Villa 2007-08-06 16:49
    My resume is almost one and a half pages!
  • SM 2007-08-06 16:51
    Jonh Robo:
    ...my resume is 6 pages long to cover all of my IT experience spanning nearly 30 years.
    I figure if the hiring manager really wants to know me they have the info.
    Sure, they can stop reading as soon as they have the info they need.
    They don't have to read all of it.

    I know this is not the "accepted practice" for resume length...but I'm exceptional!


    OK, but when it's that long there's a good chance that they probably just won't read any of it.
  • Perl Guy 2007-08-06 16:52
    Mine is 1 and a half pages, but that's because I have a varied background experience. Management (US Army), Technical (both perl and C#), and Education experience do that to my resume. The problem is, I don't have enough experience in any on of the three fields to be a good fit for any one of the three as a 'midlevel', so I am 'junior' level even though I have 4 years of college and 4 years in the outside world.
  • Tatiano 2007-08-06 17:01
    my resume is 73 pages long...

    i like to include nice full-page pictures of photos over a wooden table showing me and the things i like and dislike...
  • diaphanein 2007-08-06 17:02
    SM:
    Jonh Robo:
    ...my resume is 6 pages long to cover all of my IT experience spanning nearly 30 years.
    I figure if the hiring manager really wants to know me they have the info.
    Sure, they can stop reading as soon as they have the info they need.
    They don't have to read all of it.

    I know this is not the "accepted practice" for resume length...but I'm exceptional!


    OK, but when it's that long there's a good chance that they probably just won't read any of it.

    I definitely look down upon 6 pages of resume. Especially when its riddles with typos and bad grammar. Not that I'm trying to be grammar/spelling police, by any means, but people, please. Your resume is the first (and potentially last) impression you make with an interviewer. PROOF READ. I recently had a guy that graduated in "Sprint 2005". (Although, spelling and grammar aside, he actually turned out to be a good interview).
  • ParkinT 2007-08-06 17:02
    Do you think there is any chance Alvin might read this and be, you know, insulted?!
    </sarcasm>
  • versatilia 2007-08-06 17:03
    Mine is 2-3 pages depending on the job I'm applying for (though I'm happily self employed now, 5 years and counting!)

    I got fed up of trying to cram everything in so the front page just includes 2 main sections - a list of technologies worked with (mostly TLAs - I even added "TLAs" as a joke), and a list of "soft skills".

    Funny thing is this means a constant stream of recruiters emailing/calling me because my CV in their database got hit in a keyword search...
  • gwenhwyfaer 2007-08-06 17:08
    ParkinT:
    Do you think there is any chance Alvin might read this and be, you know, insulted?!
    </sarcasm>

    Not since the third time his code turned up on here, no.
  • Hej 2007-08-06 17:20
    I hope the "C-pound" was a joke, though I didn't get the sense of 'ha ha' afterwards....
  • BenF 2007-08-06 17:20
    I once had someone tell me that regression testing was when you tested backwards. (Impressive off-the-cuff creativity, I thought. But we didn't hire him.)
  • my name is missing 2007-08-06 17:22
    I would have asked something non-sensical and timed how long it took for him to give up on finding it online.

    "What does the eephus keyword do? How can it make multityping easier?"

    Seriously these guys are why I hate looking for a job, everyone assumes you are an Alvin.
  • SomeCoder 2007-08-06 17:24
    Hej:
    I hope the "C-pound" was a joke, though I didn't get the sense of 'ha ha' afterwards....


    It is a joke - see: http://worsethanfailure.com/Articles/5_years_C-pound_experience.aspx


    Good times that one :)
  • gwenhwyfaer 2007-08-06 17:24
    Hej:
    I hope the "C-pound" was a joke, though I didn't get the sense of 'ha ha' afterwards....

    I don't know, I think it works quite well in that regard.
  • ptomblin 2007-08-06 17:24
    diaphanein:

    I definitely look down upon 6 pages of resume. Especially when its riddles with typos and bad grammar.


    (Emphasis added)

    Ironic, nu?
  • SomeCoder 2007-08-06 17:26
    SomeCoder:
    Hej:
    I hope the "C-pound" was a joke, though I didn't get the sense of 'ha ha' afterwards....


    It is a joke - see: http://worsethanfailure.com/Articles/5_years_C-pound_experience.aspx


    Good times that one :)


    Sorry, let me make that a link: http://worsethanfailure.com/Articles/5_years_C-pound_experience.aspx
  • Tobias 2007-08-06 17:26
    There was another story from the interview where the interviewed C#-specialist pronounced C# as C-pound. So it's just a easteregg for the long-term-readers ;)...

    mpG
    Tobias
  • john 2007-08-06 17:27
    Hej:
    I hope the "C-pound" was a joke, though I didn't get the sense of 'ha ha' afterwards....

    this was from a previous WTF
  • RogerN 2007-08-06 17:28
    Could you tell me the difference between a static and non-static class?


    According to the C# documentation, the "static" keyword cannot be applied to a class. Perhaps they meant to inquire about singletons?
  • whicker 2007-08-06 17:30
    I never understand these fake facades people create in an interview setting.

    If a person is that bad, why even thank the person for the time spent and why even give the "will contact you in a few weeks" speech?

    If you want employees to be honest in their interviews, why do the people hiring feel they need to hide their true impressions?

    Let that person know it. What's the worst that person can do, actually gain the knowledge required for that position? Or, are hiring people afraid that as candidate F's number of interviews with constructive feedback increases without bound, the probability of passing the screening without actually having the skills approaches 1?
  • SomeCoder 2007-08-06 17:31
    RogerN:
    Could you tell me the difference between a static and non-static class?


    According to the C# documentation, the "static" keyword cannot be applied to a class. Perhaps they meant to inquire about singletons?


    Then the documentation is wrong. I applied it to a class today :)

    public static class MyClass
    {
    }
  • Z 2007-08-06 17:33
    The hiring manager knew what instantiation and managed code was?!
  • Anonymous 2007-08-06 17:35
    I've heard this story before from someone I work with except that the person on the other end was an engineer from the Indian outsourcing firm they were going to hire.

    This is either an urban legend or it is a fairly common occurrence.
  • Edward Royce 2007-08-06 17:40
    Hmmmm.

    Actually I've got a 6 page resume as well to cover a 29 year career. Well actually only the 20 years since I figure anything older than 20 years ago is sufficiently obsolete that nobody is going to care.

    I've tried working with a 1 page resume but every single time I get a request back for more detail. Eventually it all ends up with me sending the 6 page resume so I don't bother anymore. I include a 1 page summary as the first page and then all of the rest as detail filler.

    *shrug* it works.
  • publius 2007-08-06 17:43
    I want some of what you're smoking.
  • Justin 2007-08-06 17:49
    RogerN:
    Could you tell me the difference between a static and non-static class?


    According to the C# documentation, the "static" keyword cannot be applied to a class. Perhaps they meant to inquire about singletons?


    Try the .Net 2.0 documentation. As of 2.0 you can declare a class static and prevent it from ever being instanted. (Yes, the last word was a joke).
  • Diamonds 2007-08-06 18:24
    I would have asked what keyword do you use to create a 'goatse' class.

    That would have given him the clue to not lookup the answers to questions.

    PS: Don't google that word.
  • Bomm 2007-08-06 18:24
    6 pages doesn't even look that bad to me anymore. I've recently interviewed a guy who had 8 pages and I've seen 10 pages before. We didn't even interview a guy with 10 page resume because it's clear that he was either a) stupid b) ignorant/impolite c) lone cowboy with no experience in corporate environment. Screw that.

    Come on people... 6-8 pages, even if you've 20 years of experience is quite stupid. Four is most that I will ever read.
  • RobDude 2007-08-06 18:28
    My resume is now 3 pages long..and I'm 24. Even back when it was 2 pages; pretty much everyone said that I was a fool for having a 2 page resume.

    But I haven't had any trouble getting interviews or getting jobs.

    It's a good resume - name/contact info at the very top and a very brief (normally 1 line) sort of introduction. 'Experienced programmers seeks work' kind of a thing. Then I've got a small list of buzzwords. This list is important because most of the people who handle your resume won't know ANYTHING about computers. To the average HR lady 'C#' and 'VB.Net' have nothing in common. My point is - put the buzzwords so the headhunters and HR people can quickly and easily find them.

    Then I've got a list of the jobs I've had. Each entry is short and to the point - Name of the company, my position, dates employeed and 3 bullet points explaining what I did. They are listed most recent to oldest.

    So, on the first page - you know who I am, what I want (a job), a list of what I do, and my most recent/current employeer.

    Anyone who says 'Well, his qualifications on this first page look great; but he's got more pages, let's not look at them' is a tool and I don't want to work with a bunch of tools. If they take the time to flip to page two, they'll see even more jobs I've had and technologies I've worked with.

    Any job I've worked that is relevent to the job I'm trying to get should be on my resume. Sure, if you are filling it up with your summer working at McDonalds; that's crap, and it should go.

    When you go to hire a consulting firm to take over some development project....would you look at their webpage and go 'OH GEEZ - Look at this crap; they've worked for *FIFTY* different clients and all 50 were really happy with their work - but well, we only wanted 1 page of previous customers...let's find a different company' - I sure hope you wouldn't. That's how I feel about my resume. Every job listed is relevent to the job I'm going for, and every former boss/manager listed will speak highly of me.

    And any job I lose because of it, is a job I wouldn't have wanted.
  • Bomm 2007-08-06 18:33
    RobDude:

    Anyone who says 'Well, his qualifications on this first page look great; but he's got more pages, let's not look at them' is a tool and I don't want to work with a bunch of tools. If they take the time to flip to page two, they'll see even more jobs I've had and technologies I've worked with.

    Agreed, but you still have to keep it reasonable. Have you ever been presented with 10 resumes of your potential co-workers? 6-8 page resume tells me that the person doesn't respect other people's time. Make it 3-4 pages. Leave only names and dates for the projects from 10 years ago. Be reasonable.
  • dkf 2007-08-06 18:37
    Bomm:
    Come on people... 6-8 pages, even if you've 20 years of experience is quite stupid. Four is most that I will ever read.
    To every rule there is an exception. I once saw a CV that was that sort of length, and that was just with the guy's recent publications. He was a freaking paper writing machine. In the end we didn't hire him because we didn't have a senior-enough position open, but we did forward it on to a number of other departments...
  • AGould 2007-08-06 18:51
    whicker:
    I never understand these fake facades people create in an interview setting.

    If a person is that bad, why even thank the person for the time spent and why even give the "will contact you in a few weeks" speech?

    If you want employees to be honest in their interviews, why do the people hiring feel they need to hide their true impressions?

    Let that person know it. What's the worst that person can do, actually gain the knowledge required for that position? Or, are hiring people afraid that as candidate F's number of interviews with constructive feedback increases without bound, the probability of passing the screening without actually having the skills approaches 1?


    Mainly it's a corporate CYA issue - our HR department is very insistent on not saying *anything* that can be used against the company (and that includes opinions of any type). *shrug*
  • Top Cod3r 2007-08-06 18:58
    Its obvious that Brent, having lacked experience in hiring developers, failed to accurately advertise the requirements for the position he was trying to fill. Now that he has gotten the wrong type of candidate, he's trying to cover up his own mistake by ripping on the applicant.

    If it were me, I would hire Alvin immediately after the phone interview, because its obvious that he is the kind of go to guy who you can count on to find the answer and solve problems on his own using Internet resources when necessary. And they didn't say, but if this was a telecommuniting position, he seems like the perfect fit.

    Maybe Brent should go read some books on interviewing skills and not publicly ridicule applicants for his job posting. Its no wonder he can't hire anyone.
  • Anon Fred 2007-08-06 18:59
    Brent wanted to talk to both candidates on the phone first to assess their competence levels prior to a face-to-face interview. First they called Alvin


    So, what happened to the second guy?
  • some dude 2007-08-06 19:05
    Its obvious that Brent, having lacked experience in hiring developers, failed to accurately advertise the requirements for the position he was trying to fill. Now that he has gotten the wrong type of candidate, he's trying to cover up his own mistake by ripping on the applicant.
    ....
    Maybe Brent should go read some books on interviewing skills and not publicly ridicule applicants for his job posting. Its no wonder he can't hire anyone.


    Uh, oh. I think we found Alvin. Either that or someone *seriously* forgot their <sarcasm> tags.
  • EvanED 2007-08-06 19:13
    dkf:
    Bomm:
    Come on people... 6-8 pages, even if you've 20 years of experience is quite stupid. Four is most that I will ever read.
    To every rule there is an exception. I once saw a CV that was that sort of length, and that was just with the guy's recent publications. He was a freaking paper writing machine. In the end we didn't hire him because we didn't have a senior-enough position open, but we did forward it on to a number of other departments...


    CVs are more or less expected to be long. They aren't resumes. My advisor's CV is 22 pages.
  • zip 2007-08-06 19:16
    6-page resume with correct spelling, legitimately 6 pages of relevant work experience = good
    6-page resume with spelling/grammar errors, excessive detail/filler to make 2 or 3 jobs look more significant = bad

    I see more of the latter than the former, and I'm just a developer who does the occasional technical interview. I think that's why the long resume gets a bad rep, for every guy with 15 years experience there's ten guys trying to stretch 2 jobs into six pages by telling me about every single bug they ever fixed.

    One guess what nationality I see this from the most...
  • RxScram 2007-08-06 19:23
    zip:

    One guess what nationality I see this from the most...


    Please tell...
  • Daniel 2007-08-06 19:24
    Yeah, but he'll probably end up seeing it during another phone interview, so he'll have to stifle.
  • Borat 2007-08-06 19:25
    zip:
    6-page resume with correct spelling, legitimately 6 pages of relevant work experience = good
    6-page resume with spelling/grammar errors, excessive detail/filler to make 2 or 3 jobs look more significant = bad

    I see more of the latter than the former, and I'm just a developer who does the occasional technical interview. I think that's why the long resume gets a bad rep, for every guy with 15 years experience there's ten guys trying to stretch 2 jobs into six pages by telling me about every single bug they ever fixed.

    One guess what nationality I see this from the most...

    Kazakhstan
  • Martini 2007-08-06 19:26
    Diamonds:
    I would have asked what keyword do you use to create a 'goatse' class.

    That would have given him the clue to not lookup the answers to questions.

    PS: Don't google that word.


    Don't google "pain series" either. Really NSFW. Or viewing in general.
  • kimbo305 2007-08-06 19:37
    some dude:

    Uh, oh. I think we found Alvin. Either that or someone *seriously* forgot their <sarcasm> tags.

    They just weren't good at sarcasm.
  • Dave Krause 2007-08-06 19:43
    In today's market if you don't mention every facet of every technology you've worked with resume readers will consider your skills as inadequate because a specific tool you may have used was not mentioned. I have experimented with both short resumes (1 page) and long resumes (12 pages).

    The winner, hands down, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is the long resume. Employers can and do sometimes act shocked at their length, but who cares? If they were able to find you and your specific skill sets and you were able to find quality employment, the length of the resume never becomes a topic of discussion again.

    Bottom line - don't knock a guy because he has a really long resume. Quality still reigns high over quantity in all facets of our work, including resumes. But this does not necessarily mean that all of the skills and tools we have used should fit neatly in one page.
  • Bob N Freely 2007-08-06 19:44
    When I'm interviewing, I will only skim anything beyond the first two pages. In the software industry, any work experience more than 5 years in the past is likely obsolete, and if you've had more than 2 pages worth of jobs in the last 5 years, I would consider that a red flag.

    Either way, I only want to see examples that show you are current on the required technologies, and that you are capable of working in the project environment.
  • vt_mruhlin 2007-08-06 19:51
    dkf:
    we didn't hire him because we didn't have a senior-enough position open, but we did forward it on to a number of other departments...


    Yeah, I've heard that one before. That's like the "It's not you, it's me" of job interviews.
  • Chris 2007-08-06 19:55
    Top Cod3r:
    Its obvious that Brent, having lacked experience in hiring developers, failed to accurately advertise the requirements for the position he was trying to fill. Now that he has gotten the wrong type of candidate, he's trying to cover up his own mistake by ripping on the applicant.

    If it were me, I would hire Alvin immediately after the phone interview, because its obvious that he is the kind of go to guy who you can count on to find the answer and solve problems on his own using Internet resources when necessary. And they didn't say, but if this was a telecommuniting position, he seems like the perfect fit.

    Maybe Brent should go read some books on interviewing skills and not publicly ridicule applicants for his job posting. Its no wonder he can't hire anyone.


    Surely you can't say that you would hire this guy? I man if you are recruiting for an experienced coder and the guy is simply regurgitating what he sees on a website you can't honestly expect him to have the understanding required for the role? I dont think the guys interviewing skills are at question here, if the interviewee clearly has no clue about the questions asked then it's not the interviewers fault.

    I think the interviewee was just trying to be optimistic in his skills and hoping to get lucky with a job. Whilst he has shown some google skills I don't think you should be hiring everyone who can put "static class" into google.
  • Dave Krause 2007-08-06 20:00
    You must never have been, nor hired, a contractor before then. I have worked on 20 different projects in the past 5 years. I usually spare the gory details of all of them on my resume.

    Still a red flag to you? Then you are the one missing out, not the resume writer.

    Also you overlook the part of the process the got that resume in front of you in the first place. Some HR person or head hunter, with absolutely no IT experience at all, scans resume databases looking for the key words you wrote in your requirements.


  • Anon Fred 2007-08-06 20:14
    Bob N Freely:
    In the software industry, any work experience more than 5 years in the past is likely obsolete,


    oh geeze. . .


    Either way, I only want to see examples that show you are current on the required technologies, and that you are capable of working in the project environment.


    ha ha ha! That was funny!

  • mabinogi 2007-08-06 20:47
    kimbo305:
    some dude:

    Uh, oh. I think we found Alvin. Either that or someone *seriously* forgot their <sarcasm> tags.

    They just weren't good at sarcasm.


    That's because it wasn't sarcasm, it was irony.
    And telling people something was irony completely destroys it. Part of the point is that some people will take you literally, but those that think the same way as you will understand that it's a joke.
  • CastrTroy 2007-08-06 21:18
    Hej:
    I hope the "C-pound" was a joke, though I didn't get the sense of 'ha ha' afterwards....

    I heard a story about a guy who worked on ASP web pages that called it asp, like the snake, instead of A-S-P. It's not completely unbelievable. According to a the "Mastering Regular Expressions" book I just finished reading, Regex is pronounced with a hard "G", like gone. However, having only seen the word on the internet and books, and with my knowledge of how English usually works, I've always pronounced it with a soft G, like in giant. C-Pound is a little hard to believe, but I could see it happening.
  • incoherent 2007-08-06 21:26
    Chris:
    Top Cod3r:
    Its obvious that Brent, having lacked experience in hiring developers, failed to accurately advertise the requirements for the position he was trying to fill. Now that he has gotten the wrong type of candidate, he's trying to cover up his own mistake by ripping on the applicant.

    If it were me, I would hire Alvin immediately after the phone interview, because its obvious that he is the kind of go to guy who you can count on to find the answer and solve problems on his own using Internet resources when necessary. And they didn't say, but if this was a telecommuniting position, he seems like the perfect fit.

    Maybe Brent should go read some books on interviewing skills and not publicly ridicule applicants for his job posting. Its no wonder he can't hire anyone.


    Surely you can't say that you would hire this guy? I man if you are recruiting for an experienced coder and the guy is simply regurgitating what he sees on a website you can't honestly expect him to have the understanding required for the role? I dont think the guys interviewing skills are at question here, if the interviewee clearly has no clue about the questions asked then it's not the interviewers fault.

    I think the interviewee was just trying to be optimistic in his skills and hoping to get lucky with a job. Whilst he has shown some google skills I don't think you should be hiring everyone who can put "static class" into google.
    Every day Top Cod3r posts something ridiculous, and every day someone bites on it. Continue feeding the trolls, people...
  • Dave 2007-08-06 21:47
    When I'm hiring someone and I have a bunch of applicants, I want as much information as possible to identify who qualifies for an interview. Who are you people that can say yes or no to someone based on 1.5 pages? I really don't want to waste my time interviewing someone who has provided a page of TLA's, I want a story so I can start to build a picture of the person. Obviously if the story isn't well written or gets boring after the first page I can stop reading but as with most things, I find the more I know, the better able I am to make a decision and the more confidence I have in the choices I make. In NZ once a person is hired for a position it is very difficult to then sack that person for non-performance so you need to be very sure you're hiring the right individual.

    Having said that we had a developer we hired recently show up for the first week and then just vanish (http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/5530).
  • kr00ls 2007-08-06 21:52
    Agree. What I noticed is that for consulting gigs people tend to submit longer resumes, which list the technologies and short descriptions of the projects. I would say that average resume of a consultant that my company receives is 10 pages, although I have seen 20+ pages... Its fairly common especially if one is a consultant with multiple masters or a phd. I have to admit it is very very depressing when I compare it to my mere 2 pages ;)
    But when you look at it from a different perspective, you might question one's knowledge of the technologies they listed. Many times, people with 5+ page resumes do not remember what they coded 2 years ago... or when questioned in detail, will admit "err err I have worked it with BUT..".. and it turns out someone else did the work, while they just looked at it :).
  • Nick 2007-08-06 23:27
    Martini:
    Diamonds:
    I would have asked what keyword do you use to create a 'goatse' class.

    That would have given him the clue to not lookup the answers to questions.

    PS: Don't google that word.


    Don't google "pain series" either. Really NSFW. Or viewing in general.


    If ever it was appropriate...My eyes! The goggles, they do nothing!
  • tyrannical 2007-08-07 01:05
    The C# C pound / C sharp isn't that much of a WTF.

    I remember my database classes in college, SQL was pronounced with the letters S-Q-L. I had never heard it pronounced as "sequel" I still don't know why you would pronounce it as sequel either.
  • SamP 2007-08-07 01:16
    If you call SQL "sequel", why can't you call ASP "asp"?

    Sure, it MAY be the fact that the person calls it so because he knows nothing about the language, but the latter is non sequitur from the former alone. Asp is faster to say than A-S-P, so I see no reason not to use this pronunciation.

    P.S. Personally I like calling SQL "squirrel" (especially MySQL -> My Squirrel. Why? Because it's very small, very agile, and you never know when you are going to step into some of its shit)
  • Woo 2007-08-07 01:39
    Well, SQL was originally called SEQUEL before the name had to changed due to some trademark problems so it's pretty reasonable to find people
    (espeically people who were in the industry back when SQL was pretty new) who still call it that.

    I go back and forth on it myself.
  • smart 2007-08-07 03:23
    Overloading, maybe, is when a developer is given more jobs than its normal.
  • k 2007-08-07 03:54
    You know it never occurred to me before now that the time it takes to read longer CVs would be an issue - but I suppose it could well be.

    It hasn't occurred to me because I have (about) an 1100 wpm reading speed (always have had, just like that). I used to read (and mostly reject) hundreds of CVs a day as well as my regular development work, and never thought anything of it.

    My CV hovers around 4-5 pages, never had any issues, agents always seem to think it's very good. Just listing the places you have worked and your position takes space given most of us change jobs every couple of years...
  • Iceman 2007-08-07 03:56
    SamP:
    If you call SQL "sequel", why can't you call ASP "asp"?

    Sure, it MAY be the fact that the person calls it so because he knows nothing about the language, but the latter is non sequitur from the former alone. Asp is faster to say than A-S-P, so I see no reason not to use this pronunciation.

    P.S. Personally I like calling SQL "squirrel" (especially MySQL -> My Squirrel. Why? Because it's very small, very agile, and you never know when you are going to step into some of its shit)


    I've heard it pronounced "squeal" on several occasions :-)
  • Grammar Police 2007-08-07 04:39
    diaphanein:

    I definitely look down upon 6 pages of resume. Especially when its riddles with typos and bad grammar. Not that I'm trying to be grammar/spelling police, by any means, but people, please. Your resume is the first (and potentially last) impression you make with an interviewer. PROOF READ.


    If you're going to play the role of grammar Police, despite the addendum of not actually doing that, which, in my book, is worse, at least get your own house in order.


    I recently had a guy that graduated in "Sprint 2005".
    (Although, spelling and grammar aside, he actually turned out to be a good interview).


    He made the mistake you're telling people not to make, yet you interviewed him anyway? Curious.
  • 3Peso 2007-08-07 04:41
    Man, this was the best laugher of the month! Hadn't so much fun in the last several months ^^

    Uhm, ok, time to get back to my 'unmanaged' code ^^
  • vr602 2007-08-07 04:57
    Would have sounded better in Dobly.
  • Nico 2007-08-07 06:10
    It makes sense when you consider that regex is short for "regular expression".
  • I Like Pie 2007-08-07 06:30
    Acronyms are routinely pronounced as a word. Anyone who looks down on this is clearly far too up themselves.

    No one says L.A.S.E.R do they?

    Captcha: Onomatopoeia.....thats just far too non-random.
  • Dave 2007-08-07 07:31
    SM:
    Jonh Robo:
    ...my resume is 6 pages long to cover all of my IT experience spanning nearly 30 years.
    I figure if the hiring manager really wants to know me they have the info.
    Sure, they can stop reading as soon as they have the info they need.
    They don't have to read all of it.

    I know this is not the "accepted practice" for resume length...but I'm exceptional!


    OK, but when it's that long there's a good chance that they probably just won't read any of it.


    There seems to be different schools of thought on this. I was always told to limit it to 2 pages but, having sifted through a fair few CVs myself, prefer to read through a properly spaced, clearly laid out CV in a decent sized font - it's there to help sell yourself to prospective employees, not to be quick for them to print-out.

    Making it hard to read and hard to digest just to cut it down to 2 pages is counter-productive.

    My CV currently weighs in at 5 pages consisting of a cover page for HR, a tech. skills page for reference / clarity, 2 pages covering past experience and interests, etc. My contact details and references stand alone on the 5th page as recruitment companies omit these when forwarding CVs.

    It's also worth seeing what extra formatting recruitment companies apply to your CV as this can often make a poorly laid out CV even harder to read.


  • TheRealFoo 2007-08-07 07:32
    diaphanein:
    Not that I'm trying to be grammar/spelling police, by any means, but people, please.


    If people can't spell correctly in their own resume, they can't spell when programming, either.
  • anon 2007-08-07 07:53
    Top Cod3r:
    Its obvious that Brent, having lacked experience in hiring developers, failed to accurately advertise the requirements for the position he was trying to fill. Now that he has gotten the wrong type of candidate, he's trying to cover up his own mistake by ripping on the applicant.

    If it were me, I would hire Alvin immediately after the phone interview, because its obvious that he is the kind of go to guy who you can count on to find the answer and solve problems on his own using Internet resources when necessary. And they didn't say, but if this was a telecommuniting position, he seems like the perfect fit.

    Maybe Brent should go read some books on interviewing skills and not publicly ridicule applicants for his job posting. Its no wonder he can't hire anyone.


    There can be no doubt- "Top Cod3r" is Alvin.
    Hey Alvin, now that you know what static means, can you tell us what instantiate means? How's that "solving problems on [your] own using Internet resources", learning how to code one frigging word at a time thing working out for you?
  • Arno Hayes 2007-08-07 07:54
    My worst CV blooper ever was when I misspelled MENSA on my last one. Luckily I got the job anyway, but I'm still embarrassed about that one :P
  • ze REEEL german! 2007-08-07 07:57
    CastrTroy:
    Hej:
    I hope the "C-pound" was a joke, though I didn't get the sense of 'ha ha' afterwards....

    I heard a story about a guy who worked on ASP web pages that called it asp, like the snake, instead of A-S-P. It's not completely unbelievable. According to a the "Mastering Regular Expressions" book I just finished reading, Regex is pronounced with a hard "G", like gone. However, having only seen the word on the internet and books, and with my knowledge of how English usually works, I've always pronounced it with a soft G, like in giant. C-Pound is a little hard to believe, but I could see it happening.


    Well, if you know that "Regex" ist just a short for "Regular Expression", it makes sense NOT to pronounce it with a "soft G" like in "giant".

    You wouldn't pronouce "Regular" that way, would you?
  • lime.lime 2007-08-07 08:00
    Static class - students sit still in the class
    Non-Static class - students jump around, making noises in the class.
  • grammar jerk 2007-08-07 08:02
    diaphanein:

    I definitely look down upon 6 pages of resume. Especially when its riddles with typos and bad grammar. Not that I'm trying to be grammar/spelling police, by any means, but people, please. Your resume is the first (and potentially last) impression you make with an interviewer. PROOF READ. I recently had a guy that graduated in "Sprint 2005". (Although, spelling and grammar aside, he actually turned out to be a good interview).


    I love posts about grammar that have bad grammar themselves. Proofread is one word. Riddles is the wrong tense. "but people, please" is a goofy colloquialism. Yay!
  • Hognoxious 2007-08-07 08:22
    TheRealFoo:
    If people can't spell correctly in their own resume, they can't spell when programming, either.
    Not an issue, just don't use 'option explicit' or the like.

    [ducks for cover]


  • s0be 2007-08-07 08:46
    Tatiano:
    my resume is 73 pages long...

    i like to include nice full-page pictures of photos over a wooden table showing me and the things i like and dislike...


    Don't forget to include your level 43 Dwarven Fighter.
  • A Zanescu 2007-08-07 08:53
    In C# 2.0 it can and it constrains that class to contain only
    static members
  • NeoMojo 2007-08-07 08:57
    anon:
    Top Cod3r:
    Its obvious that Brent, having lacked experience in hiring developers, failed to accurately advertise the requirements for the position he was trying to fill. Now that he has gotten the wrong type of candidate, he's trying to cover up his own mistake by ripping on the applicant.

    If it were me, I would hire Alvin immediately after the phone interview, because its obvious that he is the kind of go to guy who you can count on to find the answer and solve problems on his own using Internet resources when necessary. And they didn't say, but if this was a telecommuniting position, he seems like the perfect fit.

    Maybe Brent should go read some books on interviewing skills and not publicly ridicule applicants for his job posting. Its no wonder he can't hire anyone.


    There can be no doubt- "Top Cod3r" is Alvin.
    Hey Alvin, now that you know what static means, can you tell us what instantiate means? How's that "solving problems on [your] own using Internet resources", learning how to code one frigging word at a time thing working out for you?


    You might already be aware but, top cod3r is a troll and often makes an appearance in a thread, posts something stupid and then leaves. if you see top cod3r in future, just ignore it.
  • kr00lis 2007-08-07 08:57
    In my freshman year, I have taken Engineering Orientation class, which dealt with introduction to the College of Engineering, policies, procedures, resume writing, etc. We had a speaker from a career center who said that one time someone submitted a resume with an objective:
    "Seeking a position (...) which will (...) in the pubic area". They missed it and submitted it for consideration and found out about when one vendor called and complained :P
    Out of curiosity; how many people have the objective in their resumes?
  • Matt 2007-08-07 08:58
    whicker:
    I never understand these fake facades people create in an interview setting.

    If a person is that bad, why even thank the person for the time spent and why even give the "will contact you in a few weeks" speech?

    If you want employees to be honest in their interviews, why do the people hiring feel they need to hide their true impressions?

    Let that person know it. What's the worst that person can do, actually gain the knowledge required for that position? Or, are hiring people afraid that as candidate F's number of interviews with constructive feedback increases without bound, the probability of passing the screening without actually having the skills approaches 1?


    Because in this country everything you say can and will be held against you in a lawsuit.
  • anon 2007-08-07 09:01
    Arno Hayes:
    My worst CV blooper ever was when I misspelled MENSA on my last one. Luckily I got the job anyway, but I'm still embarrassed about that one :P


    You should be embarrassed to put MENSA on your CV in the first place. Have you really lived such a pitiful life that you need to say, "please disregard my lack of accomplishment, for I have a high IQ"?
  • Random832 2007-08-07 09:03
    CastrTroy:
    Hej:
    I hope the "C-pound" was a joke, though I didn't get the sense of 'ha ha' afterwards....

    I heard a story about a guy who worked on ASP web pages that called it asp, like the snake, instead of A-S-P. It's not completely unbelievable. According to a the "Mastering Regular Expressions" book I just finished reading, Regex is pronounced with a hard "G", like gone.


    "Regex" is no more pronounced with a hard "g" than does it have an unstressed vowel in the "ex". That book is clearly full of crap. Acronyms are not necessarily pronounced as the sum of their parts.
  • KenW 2007-08-07 09:30
    diaphanein:

    I definitely look down upon 6 pages of resume. Especially when its riddles with typos and bad grammar. Not that I'm trying to be grammar/spelling police, by any means, but people, please. Your resume is the first (and potentially last) impression you make with an interviewer. PROOF READ. I recently had a guy that graduated in "Sprint 2005". (Although, spelling and grammar aside, he actually turned out to be a good interview).


    Did you mean "it's riddled with typos and bad grammar." instead? PROOF READ. Always a good suggestion; just wish more people would pay attention.
  • KenW 2007-08-07 09:48
    whicker:
    I never understand these fake facades people create in an interview setting.

    If a person is that bad, why even thank the person for the time spent and why even give the "will contact you in a few weeks" speech?

    If you want employees to be honest in their interviews, why do the people hiring feel they need to hide their true impressions?

    Let that person know it. What's the worst that person can do, actually gain the knowledge required for that position? Or, are hiring people afraid that as candidate F's number of interviews with constructive feedback increases without bound, the probability of passing the screening without actually having the skills approaches 1?


    Maybe because stopping mid-interview and saying to the interviewee, "Sorry, but you're dumb as a box of rocks and don't know a damned thing about programming. We're not interested." is considered to be bad manners, and looks bad for the company the interviewer is representing?

    I worked for a Fortune 100 company. Our hiring process was to have our internal recruiters collect resumes. An actual developer would review the resumes and decide which ones might be worth looking into further. Recruiting would then call those candidates and schedule a 30-minute technical interview by phone with one of our developers. People who did well on the phone interview were then brought in for three half-hour interviews, back to back, with two other developers and a manager, and then a half-hour meeting with the recruiter for HR-related stuff.

    I did a lot of the tech phone interviews, and was amazed at the ways that people tried to BS their way through. Like the guy who, after every single question, would do a "cough. cough. [sound of keyboard] cough. cough. Well..."
    before answering. Google anyone? Or the guy who said "Ummm... Let me think for a second." and as he said it you could hear the pages of the book he was trying to find the answer in turning in the background.

    Still, even with those people, I asked all of the questions I'd prepared, and a couple of follow-ups when they managed to come up with a somewhat accurate answer, because I was representing the company I worked for; if I'd been representing just myself looking for a short-term assist, I'd still have done the same.

  • rbriem 2007-08-07 09:51
    TheRealFoo:
    diaphanein:
    Not that I'm trying to be grammar/spelling police, by any means, but people, please.


    If people can't spell correctly in their own resume, they can't spell when programming, either.


    There's that, and attending to details ...
  • TheRubyWarlock 2007-08-07 09:58
    The fact that "Alvin" didn't seem to comprehend basic programming concepts aside, I see no problem with looking things up like that. Any competent interviewer would understand that asking a "memorization" question is stupid when it comes to programming since one can easily find the answer. If anything, looking it up shows resourcefulness on behalf of the interviewee.

    I've admitted in the past that I'm not sure of the immediate answer to a question during a technical interview, followed by mentioning what I do know/remember relating to it, and the comment that I could easily use Google/MSDN/etc. or purchase a book and freshen up on the subject. If the interviewer holds that against me, then they're probably not something I wish to work with anyways.
  • CmdrFire 2007-08-07 09:59
    Martini:
    Diamonds:
    I would have asked what keyword do you use to create a 'goatse' class.

    That would have given him the clue to not lookup the answers to questions.

    PS: Don't google that word.


    Don't google "pain series" either. Really NSFW. Or viewing in general.



    Argh! My eyes!
  • dsh 2007-08-07 10:07
    versatilia:
    a list of technologies worked with (mostly TLAs - I even added "TLAs" as a joke),


    TLA isn't a joke, it's "Tom Lord's Arch" (http://www.gnuarch.org/)

    :)
  • anon 2007-08-07 10:11
    TheRealFoo:
    diaphanein:
    Not that I'm trying to be grammar/spelling police, by any means, but people, please.


    If people can't spell correctly in their own resume, they can't spell when programming, either.


    So? In coding, spelling consistently matters, not spelling correctly.
  • EvanED 2007-08-07 10:13
    Grammar Police:
    diaphanein:

    I definitely look down upon 6 pages of resume. Especially when its riddles with typos and bad grammar. Not that I'm trying to be grammar/spelling police, by any means, but people, please. Your resume is the first (and potentially last) impression you make with an interviewer. PROOF READ.


    If you're going to play the role of grammar Police, despite the addendum of not actually doing that, which, in my book, is worse, at least get your own house in order.


    There's a big difference between a typical grammar nazi post and that. That post is giving resume advice (albeit advice that should be painfully obvious and is said a lot), while most are just correcting people.

    And it's a post on an internet forum... it shouldn't be held to the same standards a resume is.

    Nico:
    It makes sense when you consider that regex is short for "regular expression".


    ze REEEL german!:
    Well, if you know that "Regex" ist just a short for "Regular Expression", it makes sense NOT to pronounce it with a "soft G" like in "giant".

    You wouldn't pronouce "Regular" that way, would you?


    Yeah, but enough things DON'T make sense that it's far from a foregone conclusion. "char" is short for "character" so, by that logic, should be pronounced almost like "care", but in my experience, both "car" and "char" (like charred wood) are more common.
  • Frank Stimpleton 2007-08-07 10:16
    I once read a resume that told me the applicant had done major "implantations" of code into production.

    Into the "B pile" right away.

    CAPTCHA: darwin (no kidding?)
  • grrr 2007-08-07 10:17
    ze REEEL german!:

    Well, if you know that "Regex" ist just a short for "Regular Expression", it makes sense NOT to pronounce it with a "soft G" like in "giant".

    You wouldn't pronouce "Regular" that way, would you?


    More to the point, you should never be trying to pronounce an abbreviation to begin with. Just say regular expression. Abbreviations are to save you time writing, not speaking.
  • EvanED 2007-08-07 10:17
    anon:
    TheRealFoo:
    diaphanein:
    Not that I'm trying to be grammar/spelling police, by any means, but people, please.


    If people can't spell correctly in their own resume, they can't spell when programming, either.


    So? In coding, spelling consistently matters, not spelling correctly.


    And spelling correctly makes it a LOT easier to spell consistently. You don't get new people coming onto the project and starting to spell correctly because they don't know that the spelling is incorrect, and you don't get people who know that the spelling is incorrect typing it correctly then having to fix it.
  • Atrophy 2007-08-07 10:17
    kr00lis:

    "Seeking a position (...) which will (...) in the pubic area".


    OMFG... I have to put this in... today!
  • KenW 2007-08-07 10:18
    some dude:
    Uh, oh. I think we found Alvin. Either that or someone *seriously* forgot their <sarcasm> tags.


    No. You found the latest moronic troll, TopCod3r. If you search for other posts of TopCod3r, you'll see someone not near as smart or qualified as Alvin.
  • Claude Balls 2007-08-07 10:20
    TheRubyWarlock:
    The fact that "Alvin" didn't seem to comprehend basic programming concepts aside, I see no problem with looking things up like that. Any competent interviewer would understand that asking a "memorization" question is stupid when it comes to programming since one can easily find the answer. If anything, looking it up shows resourcefulness on behalf of the interviewee.

    I've admitted in the past that I'm not sure of the immediate answer to a question during a technical interview, followed by mentioning what I do know/remember relating to it, and the comment that I could easily use Google/MSDN/etc. or purchase a book and freshen up on the subject. If the interviewer holds that against me, then they're probably not something I wish to work with anyways.


    As an interviewer, I would certainly be moving on to the next candidate. If the questions are being asked, they are probably due to information or lack of information on your resume. I'd place your resume into the circular file immediately - do you know what that means, or would you like to google it, or refresh yourself on the topic?
  • Rich 2007-08-07 10:33
    some dude:
    Its obvious that Brent, having lacked experience in hiring developers, failed to accurately advertise the requirements for the position he was trying to fill. Now that he has gotten the wrong type of candidate, he's trying to cover up his own mistake by ripping on the applicant.
    ....
    Maybe Brent should go read some books on interviewing skills and not publicly ridicule applicants for his job posting. Its no wonder he can't hire anyone.


    Uh, oh. I think we found Alvin. Either that or someone *seriously* forgot their <sarcasm> tags.


    No, I think this really *is* irony (And not the Alanis version that someone was pushing above).

    Rich
  • KenW 2007-08-07 10:39
    TheRubyWarlock:
    The fact that "Alvin" didn't seem to comprehend basic programming concepts aside, I see no problem with looking things up like that. Any competent interviewer would understand that asking a "memorization" question is stupid when it comes to programming since one can easily find the answer. If anything, looking it up shows resourcefulness on behalf of the interviewee.

    I've admitted in the past that I'm not sure of the immediate answer to a question during a technical interview, followed by mentioning what I do know/remember relating to it, and the comment that I could easily use Google/MSDN/etc. or purchase a book and freshen up on the subject. If the interviewer holds that against me, then they're probably not something I wish to work with anyways.


    There's a big difference in being able to answer simple technical questions or not.

    I work primarily in Delphi. Two frequently used classes are TList (basically a double-linked list with built in sort and search functionality), and a TStrings (a TList with the ability to store both a string and optionally an object associated with the string, based on TList). Both of these classes are used extensively by Delphi's Visual Component Library (VCL, or GUI controls) and RTL code. For example, the items in a listbox are held in a TStrings descendent, as are the items in a combobox, the lines in a multi-line edit control, etc. So anyone who's done any kind of GUI work in Delphi should be familiar with the basics of TStrings, like finding the number of items in a combobox (ComboBox.Items.Count) or the position of a string in the combobox (ComboBox.Items.IndexOf(stringToFind)). The guy I mentioned first in my previous post couldn't answer either of those questions.

    I asked the second guy from my previous post to explain the difference between a TList and a TStringList (a TStrings descendent for holding lists of strings or the contents of a text file, for example). The response? "TList holds a list of stuff. TStringList holds a list of other stuff." Hire? I don't think so.

    Granted, a good developer doesn't have to (in fact, can't) know everything, and should know where to find the answers they need in order to get the job done. However, even a mildly capable developer should know the basics. If they don't, they're not even mildly capable.
  • TheRubyWarlock 2007-08-07 10:46
    Claude Balls:
    As an interviewer, I would certainly be moving on to the next candidate. If the questions are being asked, they are probably due to information or lack of information on your resume. I'd place your resume into the circular file immediately - do you know what that means, or would you like to google it, or refresh yourself on the topic?


    If you notice, in my post I was not referring to the specific "Alvin" person since yes, what a static class is and managed/unmanaged code should be basic knowledge. I wouldn't hire someone like that, either.

    But you sound like exactly the kind of idiot, self-righteous manager who only looks for specific buzzwords and ignores everything else. God forbid someone not have everything about every programming language memorized. In this day and age nobody SHOULD have an entire language memorized, and the REAL WTF are idiots like you who think it's okay to ask stringent memorization questions and judge a candidate's worth based on them regurgitating canned answers.
  • mr_ed 2007-08-07 10:49
    Diamonds:
    I would have asked what keyword do you use to create a 'goatse' class.
    ...
    PS: Don't google that word.


    No, no. I think that you should *definitely* look up that word. ;)

    ROTFL
  • digdug 2007-08-07 10:55
    NeoMojo:
    anon:
    Top Cod3r:
    Its obvious that Brent, having lacked experience in hiring developers, failed to accurately advertise the requirements for the position he was trying to fill. Now that he has gotten the wrong type of candidate, he's trying to cover up his own mistake by ripping on the applicant.

    If it were me, I would hire Alvin immediately after the phone interview, because its obvious that he is the kind of go to guy who you can count on to find the answer and solve problems on his own using Internet resources when necessary. And they didn't say, but if this was a telecommuniting position, he seems like the perfect fit.

    Maybe Brent should go read some books on interviewing skills and not publicly ridicule applicants for his job posting. Its no wonder he can't hire anyone.


    There can be no doubt- "Top Cod3r" is Alvin.
    Hey Alvin, now that you know what static means, can you tell us what instantiate means? How's that "solving problems on [your] own using Internet resources", learning how to code one frigging word at a time thing working out for you?


    You might already be aware but, top cod3r is a troll and often makes an appearance in a thread, posts something stupid and then leaves. if you see top cod3r in future, just ignore it.

    Top cod3r would then be a crap troll if you STFU then.
    He posts crap.
    Someone corrects crap.
    The End.
    No argument, thus crap troll.
  • DOA 2007-08-07 11:13
    KenW:
    diaphanein:

    I definitely look down upon 6 pages of resume. Especially when its riddles with typos and bad grammar. Not that I'm trying to be grammar/spelling police, by any means, but people, please. Your resume is the first (and potentially last) impression you make with an interviewer. PROOF READ. I recently had a guy that graduated in "Sprint 2005". (Although, spelling and grammar aside, he actually turned out to be a good interview).


    Did you mean "it's riddled with typos and bad grammar." instead? PROOF READ. Always a good suggestion; just wish more people would pay attention.


    Youse ppl cant writ. First lern to spel, then post.
  • Pedant 2007-08-07 11:14
    grammar jerk:
    diaphanein:

    I definitely look down upon 6 pages of resume. Especially when its riddles with typos and bad grammar. Not that I'm trying to be grammar/spelling police, by any means, but people, please. Your resume is the first (and potentially last) impression you make with an interviewer. PROOF READ. I recently had a guy that graduated in "Sprint 2005". (Although, spelling and grammar aside, he actually turned out to be a good interview).


    I love posts about grammar that have bad grammar themselves. Proofread is one word. Riddles is the wrong tense. "but people, please" is a goofy colloquialism. Yay!


    Skitt's law
  • FredSaw 2007-08-07 11:22
    Nico:
    It makes sense when you consider that regex is short for "regular expression".
    <pedantry>How about guys who pronounce "varchar" with a soft ch (as in "charred flesh" and so that both syllables rhyme with "far"? Can you say variable-character? And then there's Regedit pronounced with a hard "g" -- what is that short for--Reggistry Editor?</pedantry>
  • Steve 2007-08-07 11:26
    I've got over 30 years in IT (yes, we do exist and I did work with punch cards!!!) and mine is just two pages in length.
    But I think it's down to who your target audience is. I'm a contractor and prospectve employers are only interested in what you've done in the last six to twelve months and that's what I focus on. In fact, I have two or three versions of CV with each one emphasizing particular aspects or skills. I try and match what the client is seeking in the job advert and send that flavour of the CV to the agency.
  • dkf 2007-08-07 11:29
    EvanED:
    "char" is short for "character" so, by that logic, should be pronounced almost like "care", but in my experience, both "car" and "char" (like charred wood) are more common.
    That's bizarre! Tell me, how do you pronounce "character", and why would you think that "care" is a good contracted version?
  • Stephen Harris 2007-08-07 11:34
    I was interviewing for a junior Solaris SA. This candidate came along claiming he'd been an SA at an ISP and helped set up colocated machines for customers, including database servers, file servers, web servers.

    He hadn't done too well on the written test we gave people so I asked him a simple question which would have fallen directly into the area he'd worked in; how would you tune a Solaris machine for databases. This is a nice open ended question allowing the interviewee to go into depth as much as he liked (basic: "shared memory"; better "shared memory settings in /etc/system"; advanced would even mention things like shmmax and shmmni; really advanced would explain what those settings actually do). An interviewee with just the basic answer would be drawn out to see how far his knowledge went.

    If you've ever had to install Oracle or Sybase then you'll know about this (although you can ignore their recommendations and it'll probably work). Someone who's meant to have done this for a customer definitely should know it.

    This person had troubles. He didn't understand the question. I didn't expect him to be a mind reader so I took it simpler and mentioned "shared memory" to him. Blankness. So I asked where you'd tune the shared memory settings. An attempted bluff ("kernel tuning").

    After a few minutes of trying to get the name of this important file (/etc/system) from him he let slip that his installation was more along the lines of racking a machine and running amounted build processes. He then blurted out "These aren't fair questions!"

    I just looked at the HR person; he looked at me. The interview finished.

    captcha: smile; I do in memory of this interview :-)
  • Bob N Freely 2007-08-07 11:48
    Dave Krause:
    You must never have been, nor hired, a contractor before then. I have worked on 20 different projects in the past 5 years. I usually spare the gory details of all of them on my resume.

    Still a red flag to you? Then you are the one missing out, not the resume writer.

    Also you overlook the part of the process the got that resume in front of you in the first place. Some HR person or head hunter, with absolutely no IT experience at all, scans resume databases looking for the key words you wrote in your requirements.


    Contractors are a special case. What I want to see from them is a summary of the technologies they have experience with, and more detail on any projects they've worked on in the last 5 years that they feel are particularly significant.

    Hiring is not my main function. I am a developer that does technical interviews on the side. So I have very little time to go over resumes. If I have to go through 50 in an hour, I guarantee a 6 page resume will only get a brief glance. If I like what I see, I may go over the rest of it. So make sure you get all the important stuff in the first two pages.
  • EvanED 2007-08-07 11:51
    dkf:
    EvanED:
    "char" is short for "character" so, by that logic, should be pronounced almost like "care", but in my experience, both "car" and "char" (like charred wood) are more common.
    That's bizarre! Tell me, how do you pronounce "character", and why would you think that "care" is a good contracted version?


    I say it something like "care-eck-ter", same as almost every else I've ever hear say it. I certainly don't pronounce the h (so it doesn't sound like char-act-or), and use a long a (so it doesn't sound like car-act-or).
  • anon 2007-08-07 11:54
    dkf:
    EvanED:
    "char" is short for "character" so, by that logic, should be pronounced almost like "care", but in my experience, both "car" and "char" (like charred wood) are more common.
    That's bizarre! Tell me, how do you pronounce "character", and why would you think that "care" is a good contracted version?


    "Almost like 'care'"; not "like 'care'". In my experience, how someone pronounces "char" is an excellent indicator of how well he codes. Anyone who says char, as in "charred wood" is very likely worthless.
  • Atrophy 2007-08-07 12:07
    Kind of like the guy who came to install our new network printer, and said we'd have to take our CUPS server out of the mix because "They don't make LIE-NUKS filters for this model."

    I waited until he left before putting the CUPS server back in... worked like a charm.
  • Joe 2007-08-07 12:09
    Dave Krause:
    You must never have been, nor hired, a contractor before then. I have worked on 20 different projects in the past 5 years. I usually spare the gory details of all of them on my resume.

    Still a red flag to you? Then you are the one missing out, not the resume writer.

    Also you overlook the part of the process the got that resume in front of you in the first place. Some HR person or head hunter, with absolutely no IT experience at all, scans resume databases looking for the key words you wrote in your requirements.




    You're misunderstanding his point. For a contractor to work so many jobs in a short period of time is expected. He was most likely referring to a red flag being raised by someone who's held numerous full time positions in a short time frame. If the type of work is such that the typical employee stays on for years, and the person in question is bouncing around, then you have to be suspicious.

    I've done the same thing when reviewing resume submissions. When someone works for just a few months at a time at about 4 or 5 companies in the past year, it makes you wonder what's going on. Again, that's assuming that he's not there as a contractor to work only on a specific project and then leave.

    Captcha: ewww - I stepped in it.
  • operagost 2007-08-07 12:23
    whicker:
    I never understand these fake facades people create in an interview setting.

    That's overly redundant...
  • FredSaw 2007-08-07 12:28
    whicker:
    I never understand these fake facades people create in an interview setting.
    The idea is to bluff their way past the interview and actually get in the door. Then hopefully they will be able to pull down a developer's salary to sit and do nothing for a few months before they're exposed and have to go back to flipping fries.
  • Zygo 2007-08-07 12:40
    Diamonds:
    I would have asked what keyword do you use to create a 'goatse' class.

    That would have given him the clue to not lookup the answers to questions.

    PS: Don't google that word.


    I wanted to see if after all these years since the site went down, if the first hit on Google was still that...picture.. After typing in the text I put my mouse over the "I'm feeling lucky" button...

    That button is *so* mislabeled.

    That, or I should never gamble again as long as I live.
  • Zygo 2007-08-07 12:48
    CastrTroy:
    C-Pound is a little hard to believe, but I could see it happening.


    The voices in my head keep saying something that sounds like "Sea Hash" or "See Hash".
  • vertagano 2007-08-07 12:50
    dkf:
    EvanED:
    "char" is short for "character" so, by that logic, should be pronounced almost like "care", but in my experience, both "car" and "char" (like charred wood) are more common.
    That's bizarre! Tell me, how do you pronounce "character", and why would you think that "care" is a good contracted version?

    This will likely reflect my midwestern US accent with some great severity, but I would pronounce the first syllable of character exactly like the verb to care.
    At your statement of surprise, I hit the dictionary, wondering what oddity of speech I had acquired.
    Indeed, the dictionary suggests taht "care" be pronounced "ker", while character be pronounced "kar ik t<schwa>r".
    Odd that the name Karen, then, starts the same as character (and is, I believe, how EvanED intended to suggest the variable type char be pronounced), while the verb "to care" has some other proper pronounciation. Can someone who sees a difference between "care" and "Karen"/"character" please give some example of what rhymes with "care"? Or something else that shares the sound of the first syllable of Karen or character?
  • Zygo 2007-08-07 12:56
    A Zanescu:
    In C# 2.0 it can and it constrains that class to contain only
    static members


    ...which would make it a namespace?
  • Zygo 2007-08-07 13:01
    Random832:
    CastrTroy:
    Hej:
    I hope the "C-pound" was a joke, though I didn't get the sense of 'ha ha' afterwards....

    I heard a story about a guy who worked on ASP web pages that called it asp, like the snake, instead of A-S-P. It's not completely unbelievable. According to a the "Mastering Regular Expressions" book I just finished reading, Regex is pronounced with a hard "G", like gone.


    "Regex" is no more pronounced with a hard "g" than does it have an unstressed vowel in the "ex". That book is clearly full of crap. Acronyms are not necessarily pronounced as the sum of their parts.


    That would mean that "regex" pretty closely rhymes with "rejects".

    That can't be a coincidence.
  • operagost 2007-08-07 13:02
    Atrophy:
    Kind of like the guy who came to install our new network printer, and said we'd have to take our CUPS server out of the mix because "They don't make LIE-NUKS filters for this model."

    So, how do you say Mr. Torvalds's first name?

    Lie-nuks is uncommon, but acceptable.
  • Pecos Bill 2007-08-07 13:24
    AGould:


    Mainly it's a corporate CYA issue - our HR department is very insistent on not saying *anything* that can be used against the company (and that includes opinions of any type). *shrug*


    A pure statement of fact is not opinion. "Sorry, we do not think you would be a good fit for the position." "Why?" "I'm not at liberty to explain per HR policy." Not optimal, but better than leaving people hanging.

    How hard is that?

    I'm getting captcha reuse from Firefox. WOohoo.
  • Brent R. 2007-08-07 13:45
    Actually, it was real and not an urban legend. I was the interviewer, and my supervisor had a strong respect for developer profession. She conceptually understood .NET technologies, but never coded in .NET.

    Jake, of course, added a little embellishment for poetic effect, but it was as it happened--and we did ask him about inheritance. Just for fun.

    CAPTCHA: tastey (Mmm. Mmm.)
  • Brent R. (the interviewer) 2007-08-07 13:48
    This guy's resume was not so smart, and he did not have 20 years experience, and the job he was looking for (Web Developer) did not match the experience he had (Technical Writing). He mentioned C# as a "skill."
  • Brent R. (the interviewer) 2007-08-07 13:55
    I hope the entirety of this message was sarcastic, not just the middle paragraph.

    First of all, we did not find the candidate. A head hunter did, and the other candidates this head hunter found passed the technical screen. Each candidate was emailed the description (was was better than most I've read), and this person did not decline the interview due to mismatched skills.

    In fact, of 7 phone screens we did, only 2 did not pass, and we did end up hiring a very compotent person.
  • savar 2007-08-07 14:03
    whicker:
    If a person is that bad, why even thank the person for the time spent and why even give the "will contact you in a few weeks" speech?


    For various reasons, but mainly because being a dick to people you don't know isn't a good way to do business.
  • cconroy 2007-08-07 14:17
    vertagano:
    dkf:
    EvanED:
    "char" is short for "character" so, by that logic, should be pronounced almost like "care", but in my experience, both "car" and "char" (like charred wood) are more common.
    That's bizarre! Tell me, how do you pronounce "character", and why would you think that "care" is a good contracted version?

    This will likely reflect my midwestern US accent with some great severity, but I would pronounce the first syllable of character exactly like the verb to care.
    At your statement of surprise, I hit the dictionary, wondering what oddity of speech I had acquired.
    Indeed, the dictionary suggests taht "care" be pronounced "ker", while character be pronounced "kar ik t<schwa>r".
    Odd that the name Karen, then, starts the same as character (and is, I believe, how EvanED intended to suggest the variable type char be pronounced), while the verb "to care" has some other proper pronounciation. Can someone who sees a difference between "care" and "Karen"/"character" please give some example of what rhymes with "care"? Or something else that shares the sound of the first syllable of Karen or character?


    care = bear, pear, hair
    character = Karen, barren, arrow
    char = tar, bar, far

    Any Bostonians here? Do you say "cha"?
  • KattMan 2007-08-07 14:24
    cconroy:

    care = bear, pear, hair
    character = Karen, barren, arrow
    char = tar, bar, far

    Any Bostonians here? Do you say "cha"?


    In your examples, bear and barren sound the same to me as do all your examples for care and character. In each the sound made sounds exactly like air. The only exception I can possibly think of is in some dialects arrow is nor "air-oh" but rather "ar-oh".

    I hear the difference for char though.

    So the question still stands, where are these different?
  • zack 2007-08-07 14:25
    Sorry, most things over 10 years old are sufficiently obsolete.
  • vertagano 2007-08-07 14:26
    cconroy:

    care = bear, pear, hair
    character = Karen, barren, arrow
    char = tar, bar, far

    Any Bostonians here? Do you say "cha"?

    So,
    "barren" != "bear" + "en"

    In casual speech, I pronounce the verb "to char" such that it rhyms with tar, bar, and far.

    But I also pronounce care, bear, pear, hair, character, Karen, barren, and arrow all with the same vowel in the first syllable.
    Based on this evidence, and nothing more, I'm guessing that this is a difference very similar to that of the vowels in "cot" and "caught" (which are --to me -- indistinguishible sounds, but I understand that many speakers, especially from England or even parts of New England, maintain a clear distinction).
  • KattMan 2007-08-07 14:32
    vertagano:
    I'm guessing that this is a difference very similar to that of the vowels in "cot" and "caught" (which are --to me -- indistinguishible sounds, but I understand that many speakers, especially from England or even parts of New England, maintain a clear distinction).


    I think this really is kinda of the final word here. There is no wrong pronunciation, but rather regional dialects.
    For me cot = tot with kind of an "aah" sound.
    Caught = taught with kind of an "aww" sound.
  • Spoon 2007-08-07 14:32
    operagost:
    Atrophy:
    Kind of like the guy who came to install our new network printer, and said we'd have to take our CUPS server out of the mix because "They don't make LIE-NUKS filters for this model."

    So, how do you say Mr. Torvalds's first name?

    Lie-nuks is uncommon, but acceptable.


    Just because a small inbred hunk of the population says something doesn't make it 'acceptable'

    As for how one should pronounce Mr. Torvalds first name: Perhaps you should pronounce his name as he pronounces it, and pronounce his operating system as he pronounces it.
  • Pecos Bill 2007-08-07 14:54
    tyrannical:
    The C# C pound / C sharp isn't that much of a WTF.


    Or the smarta$$ in me would call it c-pound due to hating what M$ has done to the industry.

    tyrannical:
    I remember my database classes in college, SQL was pronounced with the letters S-Q-L. I had never heard it pronounced as "sequel" I still don't know why you would pronounce it as sequel either.


    My fav: Squeakwell, a term of endearment. Orakle/Orakel spelling as I dislike it. Accidentally convinced a customer it was spelled with a k and he almost did a presentation with it spelled that way. Oops.
  • Christophe 2007-08-07 15:01
    anon:
    TheRealFoo:
    diaphanein:
    Not that I'm trying to be grammar/spelling police, by any means, but people, please.


    If people can't spell correctly in their own resume, they can't spell when programming, either.


    So? In coding, spelling consistently matters, not spelling correctly.


    Yes, as long as it's just you working on the project, or other people who all misspell the same way. It unnecessarily complicates work for the other people around you if they have to remember to misspell words in order to use your interfaces.

  • Random832 2007-08-07 15:03
    Spoon:
    As for how one should pronounce Mr. Torvalds first name: Perhaps you should pronounce his name as he pronounces it, and pronounce his operating system as he pronounces it.

    I think the point was, if you'd never seen it before and did not know how it was pronounced in this case, how would you pronounce it?

    Or, to put it simply, how do you pronounce Mr. van Pelt's first name?

    (Overlooking, for simplicity's sake, that the vowel in Torvalds' own pronunciation of both his own name and that of the kernel, informed by the fact that his native language is Swedish, is noticeably different from that with which the name of the kernel has entered common English usage.)
  • Aaron 2007-08-07 15:09
    anon:
    "Almost like 'care'"; not "like 'care'". In my experience, how someone pronounces "char" is an excellent indicator of how well he codes. Anyone who says char, as in "charred wood" is very likely worthless.

    Char is already a word in the English language, therefore it's not necessarily going to follow the normal abbreviation rules, not that the rules are that consistent anyway. By your logic, "laser" would be pronounced "lasser", or even "lassear" (last year?) depending on dialect.

    I think I'd break into giggles if I ever heard someone talking about a "vair-care" field. Sounds like a tongue-tied "care bear". Or maybe they meant to say hair care.
  • Frank W. Zammetti 2007-08-07 15:10
    I had one better once... I don't like to ask more than a handful of technical questions because the best developers I knot don't know a ton of things off the top of their heads anyway... the best developers are generalists who can look stuff up quickly and comprehend it quickly... so my interviewing is much more about personality and thought process... do you do any open-source work at all? Do you visit technology sites on a regular basis? What was the first computer you programmed? Have you ever done any Assembly programming (that last one usually tells me whether a candidate is ultimately going to be any good or not, not because they do or don't know Assembly, but I've universally found it to be true that those that have done Assembly at some point in their lives are better developers than those that haven't, for the most part).

    All that being said, there's of course a certain bar you have to be able to float above regardless, a certain minimum level of technical question you have to be able to give reasonable answers to (tell me the difference between a Map and a List is that one is keyed and one isn't and that's plenty good enough for me, I'm not looking for how their big-O notation compares with regard to retrieval speed or anything like that).

    So I do what I bet most people do: ask a simple question, then a slightly harder one, then a slightly harder one, and then one or two that even I might be a bit uncomfortable answering in the heat of an interview, and see where the candidate breaks. Pretty much like determing what speed a CPU gets marked as off the line!

    I also like to throw one or two sort of trick questions in the mix, just to see if they're actually paying attention and can think on their feet a little.

    I even tend to throw one of those out first because a reasonable candidate will notice it's a trick question, give the right answer a little sheepishly because they aren't sure it's a trick question or not, then I can joke about it and loosen them up a bit, at which point you can more accurately assess them because they aren't getting clobbered by their own nerves after that.

    Anyway, I started one candidate out with this question:

    "Where does server-side Javascript run?"

    And no, that's not a typo... Netscape used to have a server-side Javascript implementation, and we actually had one app that used it.

    Anyway, the guy fumbles for a few moments, then finally says "I don't know".

    Ok, fine, I like someone that can simply say I don't know in an interview, I actually prefer that to trying to BS me. Maybe he just got fooled by the trick question I figured. I wouldn't hold that against him *that* much, not as the first question, so I gave him the chance to recover cleanly.

    "Really? You don't know where **SERVER**-side Javascript executes?"

    And I emphasized "server" about as much as human vocal capabilities allow for. His reply?

    "Nope, I have not idea where SERVER-side Javascript executes".

    And the emphasis was there when he said it, so he clearly heard what I said, and he WASN'T being sarcastic, which would have been good in my opinion! Ok, I'm trying not to laugh at this point, so I pressed on:

    "Can you maybe reason out where SERVER-SIDE JAVASCRIPT might execute?"

    Again, very strong emphasize as I said it. But still, I get:

    "Nope, sorry, I can't figure it out".

    I'm not kidding, this actually happened, and this is about as verbatim as it gets, I remember it like it was yesterday.

    Needless to say, I asked a few more questions, just silly ones not on my list that I made up at that point, just because I was having fun with him at that point. I don't remember many of the specific questions after that, but it was stuff like "The primary sections of an HTML document are the head and the ___"? "What's the difference between the java command and the javac command?" (he was interviewing as a primarily Java-based web developer by the way). "Is HTTP stateful or stateless?"

    He couldn't answer any of them satisfactorily, but I didn't expect him to after that first one! I almost wish we had hired him anyway, I get the feeling our days would have been filled with laughter from that point on!
  • cconroy 2007-08-07 15:12
    Definitely regional differences. I'm from New Jersey, and around here "bear in woods" is distinguishable from "barren woods". I also pronounce "cot" and "caught" differently.
  • FredSaw 2007-08-07 15:22
    vertagano:
    I'm guessing that this is a difference very similar to that of the vowels in "cot" and "caught" (which are --to me -- indistinguishible sounds, but I understand that many speakers, especially from England or even parts of New England, maintain a clear distinction).
    You can hear this in the USA between north and south as well. Armour used to have a TV commercial with a guy singing, "Hot dahgs... Armor hot dahgs...". The first time I heard it I asked my sister, "What's a hot dahg?" Here in Texas it's pronounced "dawg".
    KattMan:
    I think this really is kinda of the final word here. There is no wrong pronunciation, but rather regional dialects.
    I called it pedantry before, and that it is. But pedantry is a favorite linguistic pastime of mine, and therefore: no, you're wrong; there is no "char" pronounced as spelled. There is only "char" pronounced "care". Any variation is merely tolerated for the sake of getting beyond the pedantic and on to the sharing of vision.
  • Khazwossname 2007-08-07 15:26
    Frank W. Zammetti:

    "Where does server-side Javascript run?"

    Anyway, the guy fumbles for a few moments, then finally says "I don't know".

    "Really? You don't know where **SERVER**-side Javascript executes?"

    And I emphasized "server" about as much as human vocal capabilities allow for. His reply?

    "Nope, I have not idea where SERVER-side Javascript executes".

    "Can you maybe reason out where SERVER-SIDE JAVASCRIPT might execute?"

    "Nope, sorry, I can't figure it out".


    If I'd encountered this question I probably would have answered much the same way - because it sounds like you're asking about something like the directory in which the app resides. "On the server" seems like it can't possibly be the answer because it's in the question and emphasized heavily.
  • curly e 2007-08-07 15:35
    We had a guy who was an extremely good programmer, but was also too willing to help others. Another guy, who was not very good at all, was looking for a new employer. Weak guy had a phone interview, and got smart guy to sit with him. Each question he restated ("so, you're asking me what a static class is"), then smart guy would jot down an answer, which weak guy would read. Weak guy was good enough to make coherent sentences of it all and pronounce things right. He got the job.
  • EvanED 2007-08-07 15:41
    cconroy:
    Definitely regional differences. I'm from New Jersey, and around here "bear in woods" is distinguishable from "barren woods". I also pronounce "cot" and "caught" differently.


    Interesting, I grew up in central PA, and both of those are more or less the same pronunciation for me. "bear in woods"/"barren woods" of course has slightly different timing, but that's the biggest difference. There's a slight pronunciation difference between "bear" and "barren" but only very slight, and I'm not sure how do describe it. "Cot" gets a slightly different vowel sound, but again only very slightly. If you were to take a bunch of recordings of me saying "cot" vs. "caught", you would have an extremely difficult time figuring out when I was saying each.

    BTW, I totally didn't expect this to turn into such a big discussion.

    FredSaw:

    KattMan:
    I think this really is kinda of the final word here. There is no wrong pronunciation, but rather regional dialects.
    I called it pedantry before, and that it is. But pedantry is a favorite linguistic pastime of mine, and therefore: no, you're wrong; there is no "char" pronounced as spelled. There is only "char" pronounced "care". Any variation is merely tolerated for the sake of getting beyond the pedantic and on to the sharing of vision.


    What? "No" as in in English, or as an "acceptable" pronunciation of a character variable? If the latter, who made you the arbiter as to how things are pronounced?
  • FredSaw 2007-08-07 15:49
    EvanED:
    What? "No" as in in English, or as an "acceptable" pronunciation of a character variable?
    I'm not sure what you're asking.
    EvanED:
    If the latter, who made you the arbiter as to how things are pronounced?
    It is enough that I am. Remember the words of Master Yoda: "Care, or care not. There is no char."
  • anon 2007-08-07 15:53
    Aaron:
    anon:
    "Almost like 'care'"; not "like 'care'". In my experience, how someone pronounces "char" is an excellent indicator of how well he codes. Anyone who says char, as in "charred wood" is very likely worthless.

    Char is already a word in the English language, therefore it's not necessarily going to follow the normal abbreviation rules, not that the rules are that consistent anyway. By your logic, "laser" would be pronounced "lasser", or even "lassear" (last year?) depending on dialect.

    I think I'd break into giggles if I ever heard someone talking about a "vair-care" field. Sounds like a tongue-tied "care bear". Or maybe they meant to say hair care.


    "Laser" is an acronym, and "char" is an abbreviation, so there is no extension of "[my] logic" regarding pronunciation from one to the other. That is the sort of sloppy thinking I expect from someone who mispronounces char.
    If you ever hear someone say "vair-care", you should quit giggling and listen, as you have much to learn.
  • akatherder 2007-08-07 15:53
    curly e:
    Each question he restated ("so, you're asking me what a static class is"), then smart guy would jot down an answer, which weak guy would read.


    Were there names Goofus and Google?
  • unklegwar 2007-08-07 16:00
    Anonymous:
    I've heard this story before from someone I work with except that the person on the other end was an engineer from the Indian outsourcing firm they were going to hire.

    This is either an urban legend or it is a fairly common occurrence.


    There HAS been a lot of dodgy, iffy, recycled content on here lately. Stories I read in one place, suddenly wind up here. Such as that one about "I turned the A/C off to be environmentally responsible" one. The details change just a bit.

    TDWTF has jumped the shark. Many stories don't even meet the new definition of worse than failure, they're just barely interesting anecdotes.

    I still read because the screenshots are sometimes funny.
  • DOA 2007-08-07 16:05
    Atrophy:
    Kind of like the guy who came to install our new network printer, and said we'd have to take our CUPS server out of the mix because "They don't make LIE-NUKS filters for this model."

    I waited until he left before putting the CUPS server back in... worked like a charm.


    Gotta admit not all printers have those filters... they're like DSL line filters right? stick them on the cat5 cable and the printer works >:)
  • KattMan 2007-08-07 16:14
    EvanED:

    FredSaw:

    KattMan:
    I think this really is kinda of the final word here. There is no wrong pronunciation, but rather regional dialects.
    I called it pedantry before, and that it is. But pedantry is a favorite linguistic pastime of mine, and therefore: no, you're wrong; there is no "char" pronounced as spelled. There is only "char" pronounced "care". Any variation is merely tolerated for the sake of getting beyond the pedantic and on to the sharing of vision.


    What? "No" as in in English, or as an "acceptable" pronunciation of a character variable? If the latter, who made you the arbiter as to how things are pronounced?


    Actually there is a char which means to burn. But do notice he is being intentionally pedantic, and in doing so, appointing himself as arbiter. He then goes on to say that we accept the differences to get "beyond the pedantic and on to the sharing of vision." So with this he is actually in agreement. Who 'chars' how it is actually pronounced, lets move along and talk about tho more important things.
  • DOA 2007-08-07 16:14
    oh, god, three pages of inane comments on spelling?! I gotta say it... that's the real wtf.
    Btw kudos to the guys that had stories of their own to share. Only thing that makes the comments worth scanning through.
  • unklegwar 2007-08-07 16:17
    There seem to be a lot of variations on proper resume length. I always understood that the very longest acceptable resume was 2 pages and that's only for someone with a long career.

    If you have 6 pages, then you have a problem with focus.

    If you have more than 1, and haven't been in a relevant field for more than 8 or 10 years, it's too long.

    I'm in for 15 years now, and I have a resume template that has EVERYTHING on it, that's 2 pages. The TRICK is, to take the time to study the position you are applying for and tailor the resume to fit it. It's not dishonest, it's focus. If you know LOGO, and the job doesn't require that, why waste the space and the time? You don't need to include everything you know, only the relevant things.

    A decent interview will ask you about things you didn't list, if they are important and reasonably related to the position and other skills you have (you know VB.NET, ever used C#? I see you know XML, how's your XPATH?).

    I'm not going to swim through pages and pages of someone's ego to MAYBE find what I need. If it's not on page 1, I don't go to page 2. If page 1 hits a lot of points, then I'll see what else is there as a bonus.
  • someguy 2007-08-07 16:21
    SomeCoder:
    SomeCoder:
    Hej:
    I hope the "C-pound" was a joke, though I didn't get the sense of 'ha ha' afterwards....


    It is a joke - see: http://worsethanfailure.com/Articles/5_years_C-pound_experience.aspx


    Good times that one :)


    Sorry, let me make that a link: http://worsethanfailure.com/Articles/5_years_C-pound_experience.aspx


    Haha, I was confused by what you meant by the apology considering the first url was a link for me. Gotta love linkification! https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/190
  • gwenhwyfaer 2007-08-07 16:26
    Atrophy:
    Kind of like the guy who came to install our new network printer, and said we'd have to take our CUPS server out of the mix because "They don't make LIE-NUKS filters for this model."

    I waited until he left before putting the CUPS server back in... worked like a charm.

    And yet, I've pronounced Linux "ly-nux" that way every day of the twelve years I've been using it (and I do use it every day). I just cannot stand the sound of what seems to have become "official" pronunciation ("lin-nux") - it isn't correct anywhere, neither in Swedish-speaking countries (leee-nus) nor in English-speaking countries (ly-nus). And if someone (particularly some johnny-come-lately who's been using it all of six months, and will have abandoned it again in another twelve, but for now is the most dedicated Open Source fan EVAR!) wants to ignore the fact that I know what I'm doing (and can prove it) because I don't do groupthink when the group is obviously wrong, then screw them.

    Moreover, if I hear someone lambast someone else over something as insignificant as variant pronunciation, the overriding impression the lambaster will leave in my mind is of a person whose judgement is as worthless as their arrogance is insurmountable. It isn't important, it isn't significant, and harping on about it is just fucking juvenile.
  • webhamster 2007-08-07 16:34
    I once got a cover letter from an applicant (barely passable qualifications at best) who actually spent a whole paragraph telling us how much he liked his leather pants (!) and would grant us the opportunity to interview him if we could assure him that our company dress code allowed him to wear his beloved leather pants to work. If not he did not want to be considered for a position.

    Not that we had a dress code much beyond "Don't come to work naked" but I still decided to take a pass on contacting him...
  • gwenhwyfaer 2007-08-07 16:37
    webhamster:
    I once got a cover letter from an applicant (barely passable qualifications at best) who actually spent a whole paragraph telling us how much he liked his leather pants (!) and would grant us the opportunity to interview him if we could assure him that our company dress code allowed him to wear his beloved leather pants to work. If not he did not want to be considered for a position.

    Wow... honestly, I think most workplaces, however liberal, would draw the line at fetishwear.

    Although I suppose a ball-gag would be a useful "do not disturb" symbol.
  • FredSaw 2007-08-07 16:44
    KattMan:
    Actually there is a char which means to burn.
    There's also a "char" which was mentioned in the 70's song, "White Knight" by The Citizens' Band. Flashed with the blue lights by a Georgia trooper for speeding, the trucker telling the story hears the "smokey" tell him by CB radio, "Pull over thar with your rockin' char."

    KattMan:
    But do notice he is being intentionally pedantic, and in doing so, appointing himself as arbiter. He then goes on to say that we accept the differences to get "beyond the pedantic and on to the sharing of vision." So with this he is actually in agreement. Who 'chars' how it is actually pronounced, lets move along and talk about tho more important things.
    Well said!
  • BrownHornet 2007-08-07 16:46
    EvanED:

    Nico:
    It makes sense when you consider that regex is short for "regular expression".


    ze REEEL german!:
    Well, if you know that "Regex" ist just a short for "Regular Expression", it makes sense NOT to pronounce it with a "soft G" like in "giant".

    You wouldn't pronouce "Regular" that way, would you?


    Yeah, but enough things DON'T make sense that it's far from a foregone conclusion. "char" is short for "character" so, by that logic, should be pronounced almost like "care", but in my experience, both "car" and "char" (like charred wood) are more common.


    The one that irks me is when people pronounce GIF with a soft G, even though the G stands for Graphics, which is pronounced with a hard G. Yet for some reason I pronounce regex with a soft G. Go figure.
  • Zygo 2007-08-07 16:55
    EvanED:
    BTW, I totally didn't expect this to turn into such a big discussion.


    I'm totally amazed that there's no sound files floating back and forth yet, in a flamew^H^H^H^H^H^Hbig discussion about regional differences in pronunciation. Not even links to Wikipedia, which has lots of them.

    When "Linux" was new enough to have big flamewars over its pronunciation, Linus produced two sound files, one in English, one in Swedish, both stating: "My name is Linus Torvalds, and I pronounce Linux 'Linux'". That act pretty much ended the debate, permanently and instantly, except among the trolls and the ignorant.

    Now, if we can get a recording of Brian or Dennis saying "char", we could shut up a lot of other people too...

    Other people's creations were not so well respected, and the creator's original desired pronunciation has long since disappeared into the footnotes of history. I've heard rumors that the guy who came up with SCSI wanted it pronounced like "sexy", a statement that I can't even type without laughing.
  • webhamster 2007-08-07 16:56
    BrownHornet:
    EvanED:

    Nico:
    It makes sense when you consider that regex is short for "regular expression".


    ze REEEL german!:
    Well, if you know that "Regex" ist just a short for "Regular Expression", it makes sense NOT to pronounce it with a "soft G" like in "giant".

    You wouldn't pronouce "Regular" that way, would you?


    Yeah, but enough things DON'T make sense that it's far from a foregone conclusion. "char" is short for "character" so, by that logic, should be pronounced almost like "care", but in my experience, both "car" and "char" (like charred wood) are more common.


    The one that irks me is when people pronounce GIF with a soft G, even though the G stands for Graphics, which is pronounced with a hard G. Yet for some reason I pronounce regex with a soft G. Go figure.


    I'm the same way. Although I do use "var-car" I have no problem with someone who says "var-char". I think that it's just the way your brain processes something. For example, when I read articles about the Apollo program (space history junkie here) my brain still registers the rocket as "Saturn Vee" even though I KNOW it's "Saturn 5". I don't know why that happens.
  • Atrophy 2007-08-07 17:08
    operagost:
    Atrophy:
    Kind of like the guy who came to install our new network printer, and said we'd have to take our CUPS server out of the mix because "They don't make LIE-NUKS filters for this model."

    So, how do you say Mr. Torvalds's first name?

    Lie-nuks is uncommon, but acceptable.


    Well, according to Linus (pronounced "Lie-nuss") in the movie Revolution OS, Linux is always pronounced with the I sounding like the one in "igloo".
  • webhamster 2007-08-07 17:13
    gwenhwyfaer:
    webhamster:
    I once got a cover letter from an applicant (barely passable qualifications at best) who actually spent a whole paragraph telling us how much he liked his leather pants (!) and would grant us the opportunity to interview him if we could assure him that our company dress code allowed him to wear his beloved leather pants to work. If not he did not want to be considered for a position.

    Wow... honestly, I think most workplaces, however liberal, would draw the line at fetishwear.

    Although I suppose a ball-gag would be a useful "do not disturb" symbol.


    I can think of a few former co-workers where that device would have been useful...

    But I don't know if this was fetishwear. I mean I don't know because I never actually saw him, but I don't think he was talking about assless chaps or something.
  • Atrophy 2007-08-07 17:14
    gwenhwyfaer:
    Moreover, if I hear someone lambast someone else over something as insignificant as variant pronunciation, the overriding impression the lambaster will leave in my mind is of a person whose judgement is as worthless as their arrogance is insurmountable. It isn't important, it isn't significant, and harping on about it is just fucking juvenile.


    Settle down there, Champ... I hate groupthink too, and if you know your stuff when it comes to linux, it would show. I was merely pointing out that this printer guy clearly DID NOT know his linux stuff.
  • Zygo 2007-08-07 17:15
    webhamster:
    For example, when I read articles about the Apollo program (space history junkie here) my brain still registers the rocket as "Saturn Vee" even though I KNOW it's "Saturn 5". I don't know why that happens.


    I'm stuck with mentally pronouncing the "Resource Acquisition Is Initialization" idiom as "are ay two". Every now and then it escapes the confines of my brain, and people have *no* idea what I'm talking about.

    "xevious"...OK, I obviously wasted my youth.
  • ptr2void 2007-08-07 17:29
    curly e:
    We had a guy who was an extremely good programmer, but was also too willing to help others....

    That guy was freakin' *brilliant*...he got rid of some dead weight for you!
  • rmg66 2007-08-07 17:40
    operagost:
    whicker:
    I never understand these fake facades people create in an interview setting.

    That's overly redundant...


    Fake <> Facade
  • Frank W. Zammetti 2007-08-07 17:48
    I'm not sure I see how it could be taken any other way then how I meant it, but that being said, if I were interviewing you and you said to me what you wrote here, that'd be just as good an answer as the correct one because it shows your thinking and paying attention, which is all that question is designed to do. I probably would have found some self-deprecating joke to make, because again, my goal with a question like that up-front is to loosen up the candidate so I can get answers that aren't the result of nerves, and to make sure they're paying attention in the first place, so you pass :)
  • Adam 2007-08-07 18:42
    RobDude:
    So, on the first page - you know who I am, what I want (a job), a list of what I do, and my most recent/current employeer.


    Yes, because telling them you want a job is so necessary when you're sending them an application.
  • B.B. 2007-08-07 18:50
    anon:
    TheRealFoo:

    If people can't spell correctly in their own resume, they can't spell when programming, either.


    So? In coding, spelling consistently matters, not spelling correctly.


    YOU!! So you're the one whose code I've been maintaining? If I have to mis-spell "mutlipyVecter" one more time I swear I'll scream.
  • VGR 2007-08-07 19:27
    anon:
    TheRealFoo:
    diaphanein:
    Not that I'm trying to be grammar/spelling police, by any means, but people, please.


    If people can't spell correctly in their own resume, they can't spell when programming, either.


    So? In coding, spelling consistently matters, not spelling correctly.

    Perhaps where private code is concerned. If you're making an API, then misspelled method names or class names makes you look pretty ignorant and sloppy. If the names are sloppy, I'm going to believe the coding is sloppy as well, and I will elect never to use your library, if I have a choice in the matter.

    And I'm not the only one who feels that way.

    And it's worth mentioning that this isn't 1985, and nowadays documentation is more important than the code itself, because it forms a contract. Misspellings make documentation harder for others to read.
  • Random832 2007-08-07 20:25
    VGR:
    Perhaps where private code is concerned. If you're making an API, then misspelled method names or class names makes you look pretty ignorant and sloppy. If the names are sloppy, I'm going to believe the coding is sloppy as well, and I will elect never to use your library, if I have a choice in the matter.


    What if the API with the misspelled name is part of a standard?
  • gwenhwyfaer 2007-08-07 20:43
    Random832:
    VGR:
    Perhaps where private code is concerned. If you're making an API, then misspelled method names or class names makes you look pretty ignorant and sloppy. If the names are sloppy, I'm going to believe the coding is sloppy as well, and I will elect never to use your library, if I have a choice in the matter.


    What if the API with the misspelled name is part of a standard?

    Or worse, what if a misspelling is part of a protocol?
  • gwenhwyfaer 2007-08-07 20:46
    Atrophy:
    I hate groupthink too

    ... !
  • AH 2007-08-07 21:11
    Frank W. Zammetti:


    "Really? You don't know where **SERVER**-side Javascript executes?"
    ...

    "Nope, I have not idea where SERVER-side Javascript executes".



    Well having already narrowed it down to the server, he probably figured you were asking about whether it ran in the JVM, or some sandbox, or via CGI or...

    Frank W. Zammetti:


    "What's the difference between the java command and the javac command?" (he was interviewing as a primarily Java-based web developer by the way). "Is HTTP stateful or stateless?"

    He couldn't answer any of them satisfactorily


    Then again, maybe not. :-(
  • Kuba 2007-08-07 23:21
    Anon Fred:
    Bob N Freely:
    In the software industry, any work experience more than 5 years in the past is likely obsolete,


    oh geeze. . .


    Either way, I only want to see examples that show you are current on the required technologies, and that you are capable of working in the project environment.


    ha ha ha! That was funny!



    I couldn't agree more. Knuth's work on Sorting and Searching is no longer relevant, since obviously we don't use no tapes for our databases no more. Nowadays, PCs are fast enough to do bubble sort in every application. And who needs tree structures in memory, when you can store everything in XML and run it via XSLT to get what you want. I mean, man, searching? Database design? What for? You just XSLT directly from your XML data into the webpage with whatever the user wanted to see. That's how Google does it, right?

    Cheers!
  • Kuba 2007-08-07 23:42
    TheRubyWarlock:
    Claude Balls:
    As an interviewer, I would certainly be moving on to the next candidate. If the questions are being asked, they are probably due to information or lack of information on your resume. I'd place your resume into the circular file immediately - do you know what that means, or would you like to google it, or refresh yourself on the topic?


    If you notice, in my post I was not referring to the specific "Alvin" person since yes, what a static class is and managed/unmanaged code should be basic knowledge. I wouldn't hire someone like that, either.

    But you sound like exactly the kind of idiot, self-righteous manager who only looks for specific buzzwords and ignores everything else.


    There are limits to what is considered memorization and "specific buzzwords". This sounds like reductio ad absurdum to me. If I'm hiring for a C/C++ position and the guy/gal cannot write anything resembling what I asked for when all I ask for is to sort a list of ints, then I doubt they'll be able to code anything else without holding their hand all the time. If a C++ coding position applicant gives me a blank stare when asked about algorithms, he/she better realize that the interview is over, even if I don't play along any longer.

    A "hello world" is also something I'd expect someone applying for a C/C++ position to know how to write. I wouldn't care if they forgot the name of the header needed, all I care for is #include <header with printf.h> or #include <header with basic_ostream> or somesuch. Basic intelligence, or the ability to weasel yourself out of not knowing the particulars is something that they'll need in their daily work, so they'd better show it during the interview.

    Same goes for electronics/embedded development position: while I can forgive someone not recalling the exact equation for the cutoff frequency of say an LC filter (I don't think I remember it either), they should at least be able to describe (or draw) how the response looks like, and how it responds to changes in component values. It's about knowing the concepts and knowing your way.

    The article indicates that the person applying for the position was clearly lacking qualifications, and most likely was well aware of it too.

    Cheers!
  • wcsocks 2007-08-08 01:30
    If it's that long... i wouldn't bother reading the first page
  • mikko 2007-08-08 01:46
    -snip- Other people's creations were not so well respected, and the creator's original desired pronunciation has long since disappeared into the footnotes of history. I've heard rumors that the guy who came up with SCSI wanted it pronounced like "sexy", a statement that I can't even type without laughing. -/snip-


    Well, some people DO think that Scuzzy IS Sexy...

    mostly at 2:00AM when the bars are closing.
  • b0x0rz 2007-08-08 02:09
    ok... i expect to receive a resume in a format tailored to the job application, not a default 6 page long one.

    if we need you to work with .net & mssql i don't want to read 4 pages of your php/nix/ipod design skills ;) etc...

    i expect a 1-1.5 pages of information that we are looking for and MAX. 0.5 pages about everything else, if you really want to write it.

    captcha: SANITARIUM, yeah thatz what it is
  • axarydax 2007-08-08 04:03
    RogerN:
    Could you tell me the difference between a static and non-static class?


    According to the C# documentation, the "static" keyword cannot be applied to a class. Perhaps they meant to inquire about singletons?


    you might have looked it up in c# 1.0 documentation,
    it is allowed in C# 2.0
  • Steve 2007-08-08 08:00
    Practice what you preach buddy. "Sprint 2005", LOL!

    I find it very funny when people make the same mistakes they're throwing off on others for. Strikes me as a know it all.
  • Edward Royce 2007-08-08 11:26
    Hmmmm.

    Quite a few people are giving the opinion that only the most recent work is valuable.

    Frankly I disagree a lot with this. One of the things that I've learned, the hard way usually, is what not to do and that's reflected in the years of experience in programming professionally. Another point is that many programming jobs don't exist in isolation. Sure the firm is looking for a C#/.NET programmer but they might also be looking for an experienced PL/SQL developer for backend Oracle work. If all you include is the "C#/.NET" on your resume but I include that and the PL/SQL on mine, who will get the job?

    *shrug* however way it works for you, as long as it works for you that's fine. Personally I prefer a more detailed resume that lists the technologies that I'm experienced with. I always include a summary on the first page so people can decide if they want to bother with the rest or not so perhaps that alleviates the issue with reading the 6 page resume.

    But in my career I've generally, on average, had to email my resume 3 times and wait 3 days between jobs. This isn't boasting, it's I believe a function of a detailed resume that gives people the detail they might want while presenting the summarized information they need.
  • AnotherAnon 2007-08-08 11:35
    axarydax:
    RogerN:
    Could you tell me the difference between a static and non-static class?


    According to the C# documentation, the "static" keyword cannot be applied to a class. Perhaps they meant to inquire about singletons?


    you might have looked it up in c# 1.0 documentation,
    it is allowed in C# 2.0


    Like me, he may be working in both VB.Net and C#. The VB.Net equivalent to "static" is "Shared" and "Shared" cannot be applied to a class even in VB8.
  • Neerav 2007-08-08 11:46
    my name is missing:
    I would have asked something non-sensical and timed how long it took for him to give up on finding it online.


    When I've got the feeling someone is winging it in an interview, I ask them about inexistent stuff, like java 7 or stuff like that. J3EE was one that hooked many a phony in the past. "Yeah, I'm down with the j3ee stuff!".
  • Edward Royce 2007-08-08 14:27
    Neerav:
    When I've got the feeling someone is winging it in an interview, I ask them about inexistent stuff, like java 7 or stuff like that. J3EE was one that hooked many a phony in the past. "Yeah, I'm down with the j3ee stuff!".


    Ok that's really funny. Evil as heck, but very funny.
  • gwenhwyfaer 2007-08-08 15:49
    Edward Royce:
    Quite a few people are giving the opinion that only the most recent work is valuable.

    Unfortunately this appears to be endemic; looking to get back into the field after a 3 year break, I've had a number of recruiters terminate the call abruptly when they realise that no, I'm not holding back some wonderful secret on my CV, I really haven't had a job for 3 years. It was most annoying with a Perl position; apparently, the fact that the platform hasn't changed in a decade or so has no bearing at all... not to mention that the most these sodding recruitroids know about Perl is that they get laughed at if they forget to omit the 'a'. *sigh*
  • angel 2007-08-08 23:45
    Wow!that's hilarious..Anyway, i love my AM general oxygen sensor too much that I won't be selling my car anymore...huhuhu..
  • wtf 2007-08-09 08:35
    The real WTF is that Brent didn't immediately marry Cynthia.
    I mean, c'mon - a chick that knows what managed and unmanaged code is, and probably a bunch of other computery things as well - that's hawt!
  • Edward Royce 2007-08-09 10:32
    gwenhwyfaer:
    Unfortunately this appears to be endemic; looking to get back into the field after a 3 year break, I've had a number of recruiters terminate the call abruptly when they realise that no, I'm not holding back some wonderful secret on my CV, I really haven't had a job for 3 years. ...


    Yeah that is irritating. I had to deal with that years ago when I'd work 9 months out of the year and then take the summer off. Finally I had to point out to one person that:

    A. *Teachers* take their summers off.

    B. College professors routinely take sabbaticals that extend for a year or more.

    For some reason there's a lot of secondary irritants in this career path.
  • Brent R. (the interviewer) 2007-08-09 10:52
    wtf:
    The real WTF is that Brent didn't immediately marry Cynthia.
    I mean, c'mon - a chick that knows what managed and unmanaged code is, and probably a bunch of other computery things as well - that's hawt!


    Unfortunately, that would require two divorces. But, she is attractive--former dancer in college who danced at half-time shows in football games.
  • Anonymous 2007-08-09 15:35
    savar:
    For various reasons, but mainly because being a dick to people you don't know isn't a good way to do business.

    Once you've said you'll be in contact in a few weeks, not "being a dick" mandates that you be in contact in a few weeks.
  • BR 14 2007-08-09 23:15
    Actually, Sequel was a language that preceded SQL. It wasn't quite good enough. Out of respect to Sequel, I pronounce SQL S-Q-L.
  • Worst.Interview.Ever. 2007-08-10 07:45
    Those are the lamest evaluation questions.

    Suppose Alvin learned "C# for Dummies" off by heart. He could in a heart beat regurgitate the relevant information. But how would that knowing what a static class is or what managed vs unmanaged code is help him solve technical problems?

    Alvin could very well be a great resource but you've eliminated him right up front by posing questions which are:
    a) environment specific and bear no relevance to the actual process of tackling a problem: planning, approach,
    b) can be googled by a layman in 2 minutes
    c) completely irrelevant in evaluating someone's ability to be a good programmer
    d) are about fashionable trends in the industry which could very well disappear in the next years
    e) are about something a good developer can educated him/herself on in less than an hour

    It could very well be that Alvin is genuinely a completely useless duchebag of a developer but that is certainly not evident based on the answers he gave to the questions you posed. Conversely he could be brilliant, but again the answers he gave won't tell you that either.

    All you found out from the answers he gave to each of those is that he doesn't know answer and he's so desperate for a job he won't admit it.

    And don't laugh at people who are not Microsoft savvy. That's both rude and sad. I bet you wouldn't get too far in Mac interview. Or an IBM one. The field is way too wide and deep for everyone to know everything.

  • Jerry 2007-08-10 10:36
    Edward Royce:
    ... I figure anything older than 20 years ago is sufficiently obsolete that nobody is going to care.
    ...


    This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythical_man_month is more than 30 years old and still applies ...
  • Edward Royce 2007-08-10 12:13
    Jerry:
    This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythical_man_month is more than 30 years old and still applies ...


    Ok smart guy. Nobody is going to care about anything **I** did 20 years ago.

    :):)
  • burdalane 2007-08-13 14:14
    I'm even worse off than the guy you interviewed. I maintain Solaris servers that run Oracle databases, and I have no idea how to tune Solaris for Oracle, as it was already installed when I started my job. I didn't even know how to shut down a Solaris server when I started.
  • Beaver 2007-08-14 14:50
    Uh, what about CHAR? You are supposed to pronounce it 'Care', like in 'Care Bears'. But I say 'Char', like charred meat. And what about VARCHAR2? Var-CARE-Too or Var-Char-too?

    And what about MS SQL Server being called 'SQL'. This is widespread.



  • Beaver 2007-08-14 15:10
    I disagree with you, Mr. Fred! Donald Knuth is always relevant - he is a brilliant and clever man with many mathematical discoveries to his credit. His 'Sorting and Searching' is worth reading (except the Mix language)
  • real_aardvark 2007-08-16 20:22
    Kuba:
    TheRubyWarlock:
    Claude Balls:
    As an interviewer, I would certainly be moving on to the next candidate. If the questions are being asked, they are probably due to information or lack of information on your resume. I'd place your resume into the circular file immediately - do you know what that means, or would you like to google it, or refresh yourself on the topic?


    If you notice, in my post I was not referring to the specific "Alvin" person since yes, what a static class is and managed/unmanaged code should be basic knowledge. I wouldn't hire someone like that, either.

    But you sound like exactly the kind of idiot, self-righteous manager who only looks for specific buzzwords and ignores everything else.


    There are limits to what is considered memorization and "specific buzzwords". This sounds like reductio ad absurdum to me. If I'm hiring for a C/C++ position and the guy/gal cannot write anything resembling what I asked for when all I ask for is to sort a list of ints, then I doubt they'll be able to code anything else without holding their hand all the time. If a C++ coding position applicant gives me a blank stare when asked about algorithms, he/she better realize that the interview is over, even if I don't play along any longer.

    A "hello world" is also something I'd expect someone applying for a C/C++ position to know how to write. I wouldn't care if they forgot the name of the header needed, all I care for is #include <header with printf.h> or #include <header with basic_ostream> or somesuch. Basic intelligence, or the ability to weasel yourself out of not knowing the particulars is something that they'll need in their daily work, so they'd better show it during the interview.

    Same goes for electronics/embedded development position: while I can forgive someone not recalling the exact equation for the cutoff frequency of say an LC filter (I don't think I remember it either), they should at least be able to describe (or draw) how the response looks like, and how it responds to changes in component values. It's about knowing the concepts and knowing your way.

    The article indicates that the person applying for the position was clearly lacking qualifications, and most likely was well aware of it too.

    Cheers!

    Are you absolutely, absolutely, sure that you don't want to ask how many pirates make five, or any of the other magnificent questions contained in "How Would You Move Mount Fuji?"

    I mean, just interviewing people on a gut-feel that they have a clue, have done it before (maybe three or four years ago, and they've forgotten the details), and can look it up efficiently on Google couldn't possibly be sensible.

    This thing about not hiring God, or God's right-hand man ... I'm sorry, but you've just got to be wrong.
  • real_aardvark 2007-08-16 20:47
    unklegwar:
    There seem to be a lot of variations on proper resume length. I always understood that the very longest acceptable resume was 2 pages and that's only for someone with a long career.

    If you have 6 pages, then you have a problem with focus.

    If you have more than 1, and haven't been in a relevant field for more than 8 or 10 years, it's too long.

    I'm in for 15 years now, and I have a resume template that has EVERYTHING on it, that's 2 pages. The TRICK is, to take the time to study the position you are applying for and tailor the resume to fit it. It's not dishonest, it's focus. If you know LOGO, and the job doesn't require that, why waste the space and the time? You don't need to include everything you know, only the relevant things.

    A decent interview will ask you about things you didn't list, if they are important and reasonably related to the position and other skills you have (you know VB.NET, ever used C#? I see you know XML, how's your XPATH?).

    I'm not going to swim through pages and pages of someone's ego to MAYBE find what I need. If it's not on page 1, I don't go to page 2. If page 1 hits a lot of points, then I'll see what else is there as a bonus.

    Actually, this post, and many like it, have been very informative.

    I've never noticed the difference between the British (and for all I know, European) "Curriculum Vitae" and the American "Resume" before. CVs tend to expand with the years, to several pages. (Mine is around six pages long -- with editing.) Resumes are, well, resumes -- two pages is good enough for a summary.

    Being bi-pondal, I've tended to interchange the two labels and just submit the CV, re-labelled as a resume.

    I don't, in all honesty, see what any rational interviewer could glean out of two pages, however. Let alone a "head hunter" (and I think we're all deluding ourselves here. The only sort of head-hunter who would target programmers would come from either Borneo or Papua New Guinea) or a recruitment "consultant."

    Me, I just summarise all my alleged skills as bullet-points in the first half a page, and then cross-reference them in each job-spec over the last twenty years for the rest of the interminably boring crap.

    If the interviewer is too retarded to read anything more than the headlines in the sports pages of their State newspaper, then I figure that we are Not Meant To Be.
  • Kuba 2007-08-19 00:40
    real_aardvark:
    Kuba:
    TheRubyWarlock:

    If you notice, in my post I was not referring to the specific "Alvin" person since yes, what a static class is and managed/unmanaged code should be basic knowledge. I wouldn't hire someone like that, either.

    But you sound like exactly the kind of idiot, self-righteous manager who only looks for specific buzzwords and ignores everything else.


    There are limits to what is considered memorization and "specific buzzwords". This sounds like reductio ad absurdum to me. If I'm hiring for a C/C++ position and the guy/gal cannot write anything resembling what I asked for when all I ask for is to sort a list of ints, then I doubt they'll be able to code anything else without holding their hand all the time. If a C++ coding position applicant gives me a blank stare when asked about algorithms, he/she better realize that the interview is over, even if I don't play along any longer.

    A "hello world" is also something I'd expect someone applying for a C/C++ position to know how to write. I wouldn't care if they forgot the name of the header needed, all I care for is #include <header with printf.h> or #include <header with basic_ostream> or somesuch. Basic intelligence, or the ability to weasel yourself out of not knowing the particulars is something that they'll need in their daily work, so they'd better show it during the interview.

    Same goes for electronics/embedded development position: while I can forgive someone not recalling the exact equation for the cutoff frequency of say an LC filter (I don't think I remember it either), they should at least be able to describe (or draw) how the response looks like, and how it responds to changes in component values. It's about knowing the concepts and knowing your way.

    The article indicates that the person applying for the position was clearly lacking qualifications, and most likely was well aware of it too.

    Cheers!

    Are you absolutely, absolutely, sure that you don't want to ask how many pirates make five, or any of the other magnificent questions contained in "How Would You Move Mount Fuji?"

    I mean, just interviewing people on a gut-feel that they have a clue, have done it before (maybe three or four years ago, and they've forgotten the details), and can look it up efficiently on Google couldn't possibly be sensible.

    This thing about not hiring God, or God's right-hand man ... I'm sorry, but you've just got to be wrong.


    What you're advocating is a C/C++ programmer who doesn't know how to pogram. No more, no less. I've gone twice with the "they must know what they are doing" feel, and I won't repeat that mistake ever again. People who can't program, yet end up hired for programming positions, are deadweights. No more, no less, unless they are brilliant and will just learn their skills as they go. I can usually smell brilliant people from a mile away. Most programmers I had to deal with, until recently, were in the not-close-to-being-brilliant category, and poor programmers at that.

    What you're used to is non-performance and uselessness. I'm sorry for the company for which you'd be hiring, as they'd bleed money to death.

    I don't know how to get it across to you, but in usual day-to-day job of actually programming (you know, a C/C++ programmer job?), the "programmer" will be expected to use basic I/O, iteration, algorithms, loops, and lots of other language features on a daily, no, hourly basis. They'll be expected to have to deal with stuff like API issues (learning foreign APIs and using them), some design issues, algorithmic complexity, and so on. Heck, they'll have to deal with bugs in code they have no access to, so they'll have to troubleshoot, and that takes quite a bit intelligence to work. They'd better know how to iterate a list and swap its elements, goddamnit.

    I can't fathom how one can be even a semi-functional programmer if the basic tools of the trade aren't his/her second nature. Not knowing how to write something that resembles Hello, World is like having a maintenance worker who has to google whenever it's time to use a screwdriver.

    The job calls for things that are orders of magnitude more complex than a hello, world or a trivial bubble sort. Don't even get me started with most, even semi-decent programmers knowing zero about binary arithmetic and basic (like two-three classes worth) of numerical methods. Every few weeks I deal with bugs in externally supplied libraries where people will, for example, do the following with performance counters on windows (this is pseudocode, but you get the gist):

    long timeInMicroseconds(void) {
    long freq = QueryPerformanceFrequency();
    long ticks = QueryPerformanceCounter();
    return (tick*1000/freq)*1000;
    }

    A microsecond is a millionth of a second.

    Now, guss how accurate the darn result will be.

    Cheers, Kuba
  • Kuba 2007-08-19 01:11
    real_aardvark:
    Kuba:

    A "hello world" is also something I'd expect someone applying for a C/C++ position to know how to write. I wouldn't care if they forgot the name of the header needed, all I care for is #include <header with printf.h> or #include <header with basic_ostream> or somesuch. Basic intelligence, or the ability to weasel yourself out of not knowing the particulars is something that they'll need in their daily work, so they'd better show it during the interview.

    Same goes for electronics/embedded development position: while I can forgive someone not recalling the exact equation for the cutoff frequency of say an LC filter (I don't think I remember it either), they should at least be able to describe (or draw) how the response looks like, and how it responds to changes in component values. It's about knowing the concepts and knowing your way.


    Are you absolutely, absolutely, sure that you don't want to ask how many pirates make five, or any of the other magnificent questions contained in "How Would You Move Mount Fuji?"


    I despise "trick" questions. I rarely ask anything that's beyond 1st year of basic CS college curriculum. I never care about buzzwords nor about any *particular* technologies. I don't care about whether they know library XYZ even if we use it, as if they are decent enough, they'll pick it up quickly enough. If they didn't or couldn't pick up the bascs, they won't ever be good at non-basic things.

    I usually never ask questions (not even general ones, like "what does X library do") about libraries that are external to the language. When I ask about what's in the language [standard], I ask stuff that doesn't require remembering any names, just concepts. Something that someone with any experience will have to know by heart. I always openly state that I don't care if they leave out the std::, or if they insist that the standard output stream is called out. As long as they can tell me what given symbol is supposed to mean, they are OK.

    I usually ask them how they'd implement a list of say ints, and then sort it, or find an element in it. I tell them that they can use either C or C++ in the solution, and they can use as much (or as little) of what they think they remember of the standard library as they like. If they choose C++ to solve it in, I explicitly tell them to ask me for any function they think they may possibly need -- if it exists, I'll give them the signature and whatnot. If they don't remember if a "function doing x exists", they are supposed to ask too. Basically, they only need to show me the solution and problem solving approach: they have the intelligent, instantenous lookup of reference info next to them: me. I also tell them that it's not timed, and they can spend as much time asking me questions as they want.

    I fully expect a semi-decent C++ programmer who chose to show off his C++ skills to write out the problem using std::list and std::sort, and a line which reads "here you initialize the list contents". Three lines total for a solution, even if they make stuff up. That's good enough. I.e. they implement nothing, just remember their tools of the trade. If they don't remember any standard containers and/or standard algorithms, they are free to implement something that will work for a list of ints. It's like a letter-page worth of stuff, hand written with lots of whitespace and room to cross stuff out.

    If someone cannot write semi-correct C/C++ syntax, then I'm at loss how they can claim 2+ years of programming experience. No, I don't ask them to write a freaking function pointer prototype.

    All of the questions that I ask them were the questions I'd answer, in Pascal (not knowing C back then), at the age of 14. I didn't consider myself anything beyond a hobbyist back then, and I consider the applicable knowledge level to be that of a hobbyist or a decent 1-st year student -- not even that of a professional claiming multiple years of experience.

    I feel sorry for people who have worked in C/C++ for 5+ years and cannot write hello world even with completely made up function/class/instance names. Yes, they are told what "hello world" means.

    I can't get over the fact that someone of sane mind might disagree here.
  • Steve Heller 2007-08-22 01:06
    My resume is 8 pages (with proper spelling and grammar), and I haven't had much trouble finding work except for right after the .com crash. It's organized so that a recruiter can tell right away whether I'm a possible match, and then gives him more detail if I am.
  • Maco 2008-01-19 16:22
    operagost:
    Atrophy:
    Kind of like the guy who came to install our new network printer, and said we'd have to take our CUPS server out of the mix because "They don't make LIE-NUKS filters for this model."

    So, how do you say Mr. Torvalds's first name?

    Lie-nuks is uncommon, but acceptable.

    His first name is pronounced lee-noos
  • Paolo G 2008-01-30 10:39
    People, people...

    If you are going to debate pronunciation, then saying "I pronounce 'char' to rhyme with 'far'/'bear'/'cheer'" or "I pronounce 'Linux' 'lee-nuhx' is pointless because your readers will have, among them, half-a-dozen ways of pronouncing those words or interpreting your invented pronunciation scheme, leading to endless ping-ponging of "no it isn't", "yes it is".

    Far better to do one of the following instead:

    * Record yourself saying it and then post a sound file
    * Learn SAMPA (which does not depend on regional variations - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAMPA) and use that to type
    * Post a link to a to the Wiktionary entry for the word, which uses SAMPA (as well as IPA and a pronunciation scheme based on that used in American dictionaries).


  • notme 2009-01-13 05:12
    Maco:
    operagost:
    Atrophy:
    Kind of like the guy who came to install our new network printer, and said we'd have to take our CUPS server out of the mix because "They don't make LIE-NUKS filters for this model."

    So, how do you say Mr. Torvalds's first name?

    Lie-nuks is uncommon, but acceptable.

    His first name is pronounced lee-noos


    See/listen to:

    ftp://ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/SillySounds/english.au
  • Arno Hayes 2009-02-03 10:39
    This comment is a whole WTF in of itself. Yes I have a high IQ. I thought it was relevant to the fact that I was applying for a programming job. I feel about the same way about it as I do about having a pleasant enough face and a good personality. What's with the hostility dude? There's nothing wrong with MENSA. Are you the type of person who would criticize somebody when they say they've climbed mount everest. What would you say? Probably something like: "You should be embarrassed to say that you climbed mount everest. Please disregard my lack of toes, for I had frostbite."

    WTF...
  • PeculiarBlend 2011-04-18 00:12
    Excellent! Thank you so much for sharing. The climax of the post was really touching and felt pretty relaxing when It ended with a bit of mystery.
  • Gibber 2014-08-22 08:22
    Arno Hayes:
    This comment is a whole WTF in of itself. Yes I have a high IQ. I thought it was relevant to the fact that I was applying for a programming job. I feel about the same way about it as I do about having a pleasant enough face and a good personality. What's with the hostility dude? There's nothing wrong with MENSA. Are you the type of person who would criticize somebody when they say they've climbed mount everest. What would you say? Probably something like: "You should be embarrassed to say that you climbed mount everest. Please disregard my lack of toes, for I had frostbite."

    WTF...
    Gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber