Comment On Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

The Virtudyne saga (published 2006-Oct-10 through 2006-Oct-13) is my all time favorite. It tells the story of the rise and fall of Virtudyne, one of the largest privately-financed ($200M) disasters in our industry. Like most articles published here, all names have been changed to protect the guilty, and I've worked very closely with Rob Graves (the submitter) to ensure that this presentation is as close to how it happened as possible. Part I - The Founding [expand full text]
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Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 10:28 • by fp
fp

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 10:31 • by Imperceptus
LOL

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 10:34 • by Saladin
I wonder how long it'll be before we get all of the people in here violently defending "that" company once again and wildly claiming that they'll shut this site down for libel.

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 10:34 • by Steve
I'm not sure if this was mentioned the first time the article was published...but isn't making a microsoft office killer using microsoft technology against the EULA?  I remember seeing the new office ribbon specs and now it is available but a clause says you cant use it in an office competitor.  does vb make similar requirements?              ....captcha: captcha  

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 10:40 • by Volmarias
109010 in reply to 109007
Saladin:
I wonder how long it'll be before we get all of the people in here violently defending "that" company once again and wildly claiming that they'll shut this site down for libel.


Did that actually happen? I seem to remember people being concerned that it actually could happen, not that it did.

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 10:41 • by Volmarias
109011 in reply to 109008
Anonymous:
I'm not sure if this was mentioned the first time the article was published...but isn't making a microsoft office killer using microsoft technology against the EULA?  I remember seeing the new office ribbon specs and now it is available but a clause says you cant use it in an office competitor.  does vb make similar requirements?              ....captcha: captcha  


Yes. This makes it doubly hillarious, although how well MS could enforce that clause is up for grabs.

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 10:42 • by pacman
109012 in reply to 109008

Anonymous:
I'm not sure if this was mentioned the first time the article was published...but isn't making a microsoft office killer using microsoft technology against the EULA?  I remember seeing the new office ribbon specs and now it is available but a clause says you cant use it in an office competitor.  does vb make similar requirements?              ....captcha: captcha  

IIRC, from last discussion -- you can't use Office to make an Office competitor (imagine: embedding a Word object inside of a winform and selling it as AwesomeWord), but you are free to VB, VC++, etc. Not sure if you can make a VC++ competitor using VC++, though ...

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 10:51 • by un.sined
109013 in reply to 109010

Volmarias:
Saladin:
I wonder how long it'll be before we get all of the people in here violently defending "that" company once again and wildly claiming that they'll shut this site down for libel.


Did that actually happen? I seem to remember people being concerned that it actually could happen, not that it did.

I don't think they could do anything directly to thedailywtf, though it's possible that they could go after the person who posted the message. There's a specific law exempting website operators from responsibility of their users (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061120-8257.html). 

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 11:39 • by lolpande
best 15 minutes of the week i spent reading that! *sigh* i'm in love with Virtudyne! I want morrreeeee!!!!!

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 11:42 • by sir_flexalot
109015 in reply to 109012
Anonymous:

...Not sure if you can make a VC++ competitor using VC++, though ...

 

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't a C-level compiler supposed to be able to compile itself?  It wouldnt' surprise me if the VC++ one couldn't do it, but I thought I remember hearing that years ago.

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 12:08 • by anonymous
109016 in reply to 109015
sir_flexalot:
Anonymous:

...Not sure if you can make a VC++ competitor using VC++, though ...



Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't a C-level compiler supposed to be able to compile itself?  It wouldnt' surprise me if the VC++ one couldn't do it, but I thought I remember hearing that years ago.

This can be posible, but not needed. Is usefull for new hardware withouth compilers. So you start with a simple compiler, maybe "compiled" by hand to the new architecture, then use that compiler to compile a real size compiler. This tecnique name is Boostrap, and often the boostraped compiler is a C compiler.

I have no idea about VC++, and libs. But maybe some libs are made out of C, C++ and Pascal, and the core stuff of VC++ is made with VC++ or either a older version of VC++. A compiler+IDE is nothing special to compile, only yet another program.  

I love compilers :DD
 

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 12:15 • by Otterdam
109017 in reply to 109015
sir_flexalot:
Anonymous:

...Not sure if you can make a VC++ competitor using VC++, though ...

 

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't a C-level compiler supposed to be able to compile itself?  It wouldnt' surprise me if the VC++ one couldn't do it, but I thought I remember hearing that years ago.

This is a case of whether Microsoft will let you, rather than it actually being possible...

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 12:19 • by eldark

Three words:

no freaking way

 

O_O

amazing... just amazing

 

 

happy new year everyone 

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 12:21 • by RS
109019 in reply to 109017

What are you guys talking about, you need the source code to VC++ to compile it. Which you don't get when you buy VC++. There's no way VC++ licence forbids you to compile and redistribute your *own* C++ compiler.
 

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 12:23 • by n

Go to http://virtudyne.com. Someone (maybe WTF folks?) made a nice site. I'm crushed that I can't buy a digital donkey mug.

 

my captcha is the word "captcha". neat. It's a meta-captcha?

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 12:24 • by n
109022 in reply to 109021
Anonymous:

Go to http://virtudyne.com. Someone (maybe WTF folks?) made a nice site. I'm crushed that I can't buy a digital donkey mug.

 I'm smart. Once I actually read the text on the website, it became clear that the WTF editor made the site. Good morning!

 

I love the captchas on this site! This time it's "giggity".

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 12:28 • by I have the hat to this day. I have the hat.

A newspaper of record published an article some years ago mentioning The City's partial adoption of Virtudyne's Office Killer that included this gem:


"[It was] created from scratch to deliver Web services. [It] uses special coding that
is more efficient than HTTP, the transport protocol invented to deliver
Web pages. To juice up HTTP, for instance, to deliver an online
calendar to 50,000 users, requires rooms full of servers running
multiple software applications. Virtudyne could handle millions of users
on a single server."


Priceless.


Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 12:42 • by I have the hat to this day. I have the hat.

By the way, am I the only one impressed by how WTF's have scaled up over the years? I remember when what qualifies as a CodeSOD or a sidebar today was a WTF. Now WTFs are on the grandest strategic level, illustrating with painful insight man's very ability to WTF at a breadth and depth barely imaginable without such illustrations. I mean neural networks, and then this? I am in awe.

chocobot! 

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 13:44 • by gwenhwyfaer
109030 in reply to 109010

Saladin:
I wonder how long it'll be before we get all of the people in here violently defending "that" company once again and wildly claiming that they'll shut this site down for libel.
Volmarias:
Did that actually happen? I seem to remember people being concerned that it actually could happen, not that it did.

The astroturf invasion definitely happened, I remember it quite well (the contributions of someone doing a fair impression of the CTO's mistress PA in tearful righteous indignation will forever stick in my mind... if that was satire, then very well done! but can we assume that religion has supplanted patriotism as the last refuge of the scoundrel?) - but given that here is not only still here, but having another bite at the cherry, I think we can assume the threats of legal action were baseless.

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 13:51 • by chmod755
109032 in reply to 109023

Did anybody think to google some of the text from that quote to try and figure out the real culprit in this WTF?

Google Search for "...juice up HTTP..." 

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 13:52 • by fennec
109033 in reply to 109023
Anonymous:

A newspaper of record published an article some years ago mentioning The City's partial adoption of Virtudyne's Office Killer that included this gem:



"[It was] created from scratch to deliver Web services. [It] uses special coding that
is more efficient than HTTP, the transport protocol invented to deliver
Web pages. To juice up HTTP, for instance, to deliver an online
calendar to 50,000 users, requires rooms full of servers running
multiple software applications. Virtudyne could handle millions of users
on a single server."

Nice. Might it possibly have been this article in USA Today?  (And am I going to explode the Daily WTF by posting this link?)

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 13:58 • by sensei

coincidence?

http://www.gcn.com/print/22_1/20839-1.html

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2003-01-21-simdesk-cover_x.htm 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simdesk

http://www.sys-con.tv/read/134151.htm    Video of CEO Lou Waters...

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 14:08 • by Jonty
109035 in reply to 109033
fennec:
Anonymous:

A newspaper of record published an article some years ago mentioning The City's partial adoption of Virtudyne's Office Killer that included this gem:



"[It was] created from scratch to deliver Web services. [It] uses special coding that
is more efficient than HTTP, the transport protocol invented to deliver
Web pages. To juice up HTTP, for instance, to deliver an online
calendar to 50,000 users, requires rooms full of servers running
multiple software applications. Virtudyne could handle millions of users
on a single server."

Nice. Might it possibly have been this article in USA Today?  (And am I going to explode the Daily WTF by posting this link?)

 

I've just realised that for the first time in a long while I was actually 'rooting' for MS Office while reading that article. 

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 14:12 • by jtwine

Virtudyne == SimDesk?

---- Edit ----

Well, that is what I get for writing the message, but not posting it for a few hours...  I see some others already hit on it as well...

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 14:18 • by jtwine
109037 in reply to 109017

Otterdam:
sir_flexalot:
Anonymous:
...Not sure if you can make a VC++ competitor using VC++, though ...
Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't a C-level compiler supposed to be able to compile itself?  It wouldnt' surprise me if the VC++ one couldn't do it, but I thought I remember hearing that years ago.
This is a case of whether Microsoft will let you, rather than it actually being possible...

FWIW, VC++ 6.0 is an MFC application - thus it was likely compiled using a version of VC++ (like 5.0) and then again using itself.  A "first test" for a compiler is often compiling itself, IIRC.  Good way to have your own compiler catch its own code bugs via warnings, and the like.

Peace!

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 14:43 • by fennec
109041 in reply to 109036
jtwine:

Virtudyne == SimDesk?

Well, if that's the case, http://www.simindiana.com will let you try out what SimDesk really does have to offer, for free, if you sign up and pretend to be from Indiana (google up an appropriate zip code, eh?). There a web page access (which looks like your typical kinda-sucky web-based email, calendar, and such) and ~35MB worth of software you can install (anyone want to touch the stuff? eww...)

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 15:17 • by Franz Kafka
109042 in reply to 109016
Anonymous:
sir_flexalot:
Anonymous:

...Not sure if you can make a VC++ competitor using VC++, though ...



Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't a C-level compiler supposed to be able to compile itself?  It wouldnt' surprise me if the VC++ one couldn't do it, but I thought I remember hearing that years ago.

This can be posible, but not needed. Is usefull for new hardware withouth compilers. So you start with a simple compiler, maybe "compiled" by hand to the new architecture, then use that compiler to compile a real size compiler. This tecnique name is Boostrap, and often the boostraped compiler is a C compiler.

I have no idea about VC++, and libs. But maybe some libs are made out of C, C++ and Pascal, and the core stuff of VC++ is made with VC++ or either a older version of VC++. A compiler+IDE is nothing special to compile, only yet another program.  

I love compilers :DD
 

You don't even need that nowadays - to support a new platform, add a new code emitter to the existing compiler and then build the compiler on the new platform using itself. It's a lot less work and goes faster, too.    

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 15:31 • by I have the hat to this day. I have the hat.
Any idea for a piece of software whose genesis can be described with the opening phrase "Recalling his days as a Digital PDP-11 programmer..." is bound to be a gem.

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 16:36 • by RevMike
109044 in reply to 109036
jtwine:

Virtudyne == SimDesk?

---- Edit ----

Well, that is what I get for writing the message, but not posting it for a few hours...  I see some others already hit on it as well...

 

Nope.  Virtudyne.equals(SimDesk)

Happy New Year 

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 17:15 • by ssprencel

"Instead, he discovered something much more important: Magic: The Gathering." 

One of the best lines in any WTF post all year ever.  Thanks for the good laugh.  I still chuckle to myself when I drink my morning tea from my Digital Donkey mug.

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 18:16 • by chrismcb
109049 in reply to 109047
ssprencel:

"Instead, he discovered something much more important: Magic: The Gathering." 

One of the best lines in any WTF post all year ever.  Thanks for the good laugh.  I still chuckle to myself when I drink my morning tea from my Digital Donkey mug.

I'm not sure if its one of the best lines ever, there have been some doozies here. But the image to go along with it is definitely one of the best.

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 18:34 • by Le salaud

I'm rather disappointed in this series.

 

What's a "Best of 2006" without http://thedailywtf.com/forums/thread/53809.aspx ? 

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 20:01 • by Rob
109055 in reply to 109051
Anonymous:

I'm rather disappointed in this series.

 

What's a "Best of 2006" without http://thedailywtf.com/forums/thread/53809.aspx ? 



 
Might have something to do with the date it was posted...

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 20:04 • by wtfwtfwtf
109056 in reply to 109051
Anonymous:

I'm rather disappointed in this series.

 

What's a "Best of 2006" without http://thedailywtf.com/forums/thread/53809.aspx ? 

\

maybe it's because the posted date was 12-19-2005, 1:28 PM ?

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-29 21:31 • by chmod755
109063 in reply to 109049

I think my favorite line is this one:

"The Savior was a self-made billionaire who struck it rich doing the type of business that makes unregulated industries regulated."

 Boy, do I know a lot of those guys...

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-30 03:45 • by sure boy

Check out free trial: https://web.simdesk.com/email/frames.php
Some nice javascript there

 

The interview available at www.simdesk.com is also worth listening while trying out free trial :)

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-30 05:36 • by ranthoron
Thank you for putting this whole story into one posting. IMHO you can only this way appreciate its full glory.

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-30 12:26 • by H3SO5
One word: Epic.

Virtudyne CIO MtG card

2006-12-31 08:37 • by Alexander Temerev
Those who familiar with Magic: The Gathering cards have already discovered that this specific CIO card in the post is completely useless and requires insane amount of resources to enter the game... just like the real life. :)

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-31 12:09 • by cjd1

Where do I sign up?  Doing some googling, they've got contracts with the cities of Houston and Ho Chi Minh City, and the state of Indiana.  The Vietnam one is an article from June 26, 2006, just a short six months ago.  So apparently, they haven't collapsed yet.  I watched their flash demo (not a single screenshot of the actual app).  There is this "S Drive" to store all your documents.  I wonder what happens if you map it to another letter?

Hmm, if they are always hiring, I wonder if they need a new Chief Architect of Internet Affairs, TDWTF Division... 

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-31 14:00 • by Mark Carter
That picture of the Digital Donkey. It's the goddamn funniest thing I've seen in 2006.

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2006-12-31 22:54 • by RobertJohnK
109146 in reply to 109123
Happy 2007 everyone!

(Offer valid in Europe at the moment of writing, soon on the east coast USA, a bit later on the west coast USA. YMMV everywhere else.)

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2007-01-02 18:46 • by dsggdsdgs
Umm, there is no such thing as a 600 MHz Pentium II.

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2007-01-02 21:45 • by Pingmaster
109370 in reply to 109116
Anonymous:

Where do I sign up?  Doing some googling, they've got contracts with the cities of Houston and Ho Chi Minh City, and the state of Indiana.  The Vietnam one is an article from June 26, 2006, just a short six months ago.  So apparently, they haven't collapsed yet.  I watched their flash demo (not a single screenshot of the actual app).  There is this "S Drive" to store all your documents.  I wonder what happens if you map it to another letter?

Hmm, if they are always hiring, I wonder if they need a new Chief Architect of Internet Affairs, TDWTF Division... 

you're not thinking grandiose enough for this company, try 'Penultimate Ruler of Internet Affairs....' or go for the vint cerf-esque title as 'Chief TDWTF Evangelist'

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2007-01-02 22:03 • by Pingmaster
109374 in reply to 109034
sensei:

coincidence?

http://www.gcn.com/print/22_1/20839-1.html

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2003-01-21-simdesk-cover_x.htm 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simdesk

http://www.sys-con.tv/read/134151.htm    Video of CEO Lou Waters...

if you read this one http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2003-01-21-simdesk-cover_x.htm, you can actually track each part of the story from key lines in the article..i think i laughed more from this than the actual post, simply because of the positive spin in the article.

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2007-01-03 17:12 • by wookie
109522 in reply to 109374
I just realized that the most likely reason they can use a single server for 20million+ users is probably because the server is not even being used for anything. The application is 35MB and with the poor feature set that they offer, that probably means that they are loading the complete application on the pc. Nothing remote is being done, except maybe mapping to a "network" drive which happens to be the server. Everyone gets a partition. How often do you have to access data on the server. Its pretty funny. Gartner suppossedly analyzed the software - makes you wonder how reliable gartner is.

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2007-01-07 22:06 • by Mick (unregistered)
110217 in reply to 109116
If you look at the training videos under The support tab you get some crazy technobabble as well. The "instructor" who, by the way, has the most annoying voice ever, says that you should save your documents to the "S-Drive" and then proceeds to go into My Computer and click on a drive lettered Z:! Its amazing. Then she said that when you are connected to a simdesk session, your s drive is automatically mapped to your C drive! Its amazing, even their support section is full of shit. All that I can see that this software does is offer a really shitty word editor, lower quality than the free openoffice, and then just maps a remote server to your hard drive so you can save documents remotely.

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2007-01-08 01:52 • by egamemnon (unregistered)
110223 in reply to 110217
This is just more proof that "business" people are usually just plain stupid. I think we've figured out who the company is that this article portrays and, yes, people actually buy this crap! Companies wonder why IT projects fail and it's because their leadership is inept, clueless and it's only those on the front lines who are actually aware of that. The Digital Donkey is the single greatest thing I've heard possibly ever. And whichever overpaid "management" know it all who came up with that should be instantly shot in the head and his corpse burned as quickly as possible to remove whatever genetic material he has on this earth before anything else could feasibly grow from it. However, after reading this series I now have a fool proof plan for wealth. I plan on taking a drill with the longest drill bit I can find and driving it from one temple clean through to the other. After that I will open my own business called Digital Donkey.

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2007-02-07 19:48 • by anonymous (unregistered)
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-981878.html

quote : "The company has a single 32-processor Unisys server capable of handling 21 million users."

Re: Best of 2006: The Virtudyne Saga

2007-07-21 00:44 • by jackson (unregistered)
I love SIMDESK !!
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