Comment On Halfway in the Digital Age

Fantastic story, apart from the tortured first paragraph (which makes me feel like I'm missing out on some inside joke). Once upon a time I would have said that people printing and writing on web forms would be too ridiculous to happen...sadly I've met people that make this story all to believable.

"challenged" that they do not know what a web application is, you have a team of stupid or fossil coders.

In before the wooden table comment.

I bet someone will think that now scanning his comment on a piece of paper and posting that picture here will make a witty comment.

First comment at DWTF, yay!

I just wanted to say that I use BZ for maintenance on my largest hobby site - the one that actually has a volunteer staff to manage - and while it's not the most user-friendly tool in the world for people not fully in the web-production world, I'm reasonably sure even my staff knows not to mail me completed bugs.

This guy's approach is still better than our old issue tracker that was built on LOTUS NOTES! Seriously.

NewbiusMaximus:

Once upon a time I would have said that people printing and writing on web forms would be too ridiculous to happen...sadly I've met people that make this story all to believable.

After spending several weeks creating two complex online questionnaires for colleagues, I had a similar feeling. The first one printed out the questionnaire and mailed it to people - but also helpfully gave the URL for anyone still wanting to do it online. That would have worked fine, had she actually copied the URL accurately; getting the domain name wrong didn't help.

The second one did actually manage to get a few people to visit. Of course, the fact one question consisted of something like 27 rows and 9 columns of radio buttons and text boxes to fill probably explains why almost everyone who saw the page ran away screaming, rather than completing it...

On the bright side, I suppose, only the first of the two actually bought and asked me to install a special-purpose statistics package with which to analyze the nine responses she did get to her multiple-choice questions.

Outlaw Programmer:

This guy's approach is still better than our old issue tracker that was built on LOTUS NOTES! Seriously.

Hasn't anyone heard of Trac? I mean seriously?

How can anyone in the world be so dumb and not forget to breathe?!

Outlaw Programmer:

This guy's approach is still better than our old issue tracker that was built on LOTUS NOTES! Seriously.

Having also used a Lotus Notes Issue Tracker, I concur. This solution seems more reliable, faster to enter new issues and faster to search for old issues.

i'm currently working off a 13 sheet excel project plan. it uses 11 different background colours, one for each resource. i'm pink *twinkle*

Russ:

Outlaw Programmer:

This guy's approach is still better than our old issue tracker that was built on LOTUS NOTES! Seriously.

Hasn't anyone heard of Trac? I mean seriously?

Considering it was their old issue tracker, Trac may not have even existed at the time.

Outlaw Programmer:

This guy's approach is still better than our old issue tracker that was built on LOTUS NOTES! Seriously.

What do you mean "built on LOTUS NOTES?" You can make really good applications in Lotus Notes, and you can make really crappy applications in it.

Russ:

Outlaw Programmer:

This guy's approach is still better than our old issue tracker that was built on LOTUS NOTES! Seriously.

Hasn't anyone heard of Trac? I mean seriously?

I'm currently working for a big company providing IT services to banks, and they also use a self-rolled Notes-based bug tracking. In fact, it got a major update recently.

It's tailored to the company's needs, which include lots of specific fields, the ability to have bug reports visible only to specific user groups, and even having certain fields only visible to specific user groups.

The only real WTF in the system is its handling of concurrent modifications, which sucks.

Elf:

Outlaw Programmer:

This guy's approach is still better than our old issue tracker that was built on LOTUS NOTES! Seriously.

What do you mean "built on LOTUS NOTES?" You can make really good applications in Lotus Notes, and you can make really crappy applications in it.

You can't build non-crap on top of crap.

Perhaps I've been sheltered from the evil in the world, but I just can't believe this is true.

I concur. (Hello, everyone, my name is xxxxxxx and I'm a former Notes CLP)

FDF:

Elf:

Outlaw Programmer:

This guy's approach is still better than our old issue tracker that was built on LOTUS NOTES! Seriously.

What do you mean "built on LOTUS NOTES?" You can make really good applications in Lotus Notes, and you can make really crappy applications in it.

You can't build non-crap on top of crap.

I concur. (Hello, everyone, my name is xxxxxxx and I'm a former Notes CLP)

Outlaw Programmer:

This guy's approach is still better than our old issue tracker that was built on LOTUS NOTES! Seriously.

Our CURRENT issue tracker is built on Lotus Notes! This is a Fortune 500 transportation company!

Even worse, many of the managers refuse to use it! Worst of all, it's only because of laziness, not hatred of Scrotus Notes!

Would it be wittier if it was a picture of a printed screenshot take on a wooden table?

oipoistar:

I bet someone will think that now scanning his comment on a piece of paper and posting that picture here will make a witty comment.

Damn, forgot to quote.

Outlaw Programmer:

This guy's approach is still better than our old issue tracker that was built on LOTUS NOTES! Seriously.

What are you saying? Don't you know that Lotus Notes has a rock-solid core? If you have problems with Lotus Notes, I think it's clearly a case of you using it wrong![/u]. After all, it's [i]groupware. You should have used the powerful API to fix it yourself!

(In case anybody's sarcasm detector is on the fritz... yeah. Check out those samples. I have a buddy mucking about with the notes API to prove he can make a better mail interface than the one that ships. It's painful to watch.)

Codes 4 $:

Outlaw Programmer:

This guy's approach is still better than our old issue tracker that was built on LOTUS NOTES! Seriously.

What are you saying? Don't you know that Lotus Notes has a rock-solid core? If you have problems with Lotus Notes, I think it's clearly a case of you using it wrong!. After all, it's groupware. You should have used the powerful API to fix it yourself!

(In case anybody's sarcasm detector is on the fritz... yeah. Check out those samples. I have a buddy mucking about with the notes API to prove he can make a better mail interface than the one that ships. It's painful to watch.)

And I clearly fail at BBCode.

Ah, the introduction explains perfectly TDWTF's namechange shenanigans:
thinking "red" meant "the public would love to have another namechange", one ensued (of course with the name designated "pink" by the focus group). The subsequent listing of "readers' desire for namechanges" to "seething black", made another one inevitable.

sure, laugh at the first paragraph, but i used to work for a company that did that. it was a web development firm, and clients would email the developers directly, and it was up to the developer to find someway to keep track of tasks. and most of us choose some unique method with flagging stuff in outlook.

the most frustrating thing is that there's no way to track any meaningful metric(like how many work items you're responsible for). i left on vacation for a week which ruined my system. I never quite got control of it afterwards.

hm...... what happened to the error messages the guy was getting :P?

Clearly, Byron's colleague is a master of the "Paperfull Office" concept. I bow in his general direction.

TakeASeatOverThere:

How can anyone in the world be so dumb and not forget to breathe?!

I've (semi-)seriously considered a test schedule along the lines of:
1. Place DUT on bench.
2. Breath!
3. Connect power cables between DUT and PSU. The RED wire goes to + and the BLACK wire to -. Don't forget to make sure the insulation (that's the plasticky stuff on the outside) is removed from the core (that's the shiny metal bit) at each end of each wire.
4. Breath!

and so on. Seriously, we make small batches of semi-custom industrial sensors, but the production test department has been de-skilled to the point where the 'technicians' don't even know what a resistor does. Fault-finding consists of randomly changing components and then giving up and throwing it to us in R&D. I could go on...

PS a 'resistor' is a hardware thing, for you Enterprisey guys ;)

*writing the comment in word*
*printing out the word document*
*putting the print-out in a folder*
*getting angry because nobody replys on my ingenious comment*

I'm really confused why those people are not let go by managers... no.. seriously.. to those people, there should be given no chance to fix themselves... because they are simply too stupid.. :-|

As a user I always assumed that Notes must have hidden merits as there surely aren't any visible ones. As a mail client it is essentially unproductivityware and barely seems to evolve over the eight years since I first had to suffer it.

Elf:

You can make really good applications in Lotus Notes, and you can make really crappy applications in it.

Unfortunately, in my experience most of them are of the latter type. (Actually, all of them in my experience, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt here.)

demon:

I'm really confused why those people are not let go by managers... no.. seriously.. to those people, there should be given no chance to fix themselves... because they are simply too stupid.. :-|

You think the business world is a meritocracy?

SenTree:

PS a 'resistor' is a hardware thing, for you Enterprisey guys ;)

Well yeah, but the question is what it does! I've never seen resistors do anything, they just all sit there between the other parts and waste the current...

Outlaw Programmer:

This guy's approach is still better than our old issue tracker that was built on LOTUS NOTES! Seriously.

Heh. I should have known this was going to spark some controversy.

Oh, by the way, did you guys know that .999...=1? *runs*

SenTree:

TakeASeatOverThere:

How can anyone in the world be so dumb and not forget to breathe?!

I've (semi-)seriously considered a test schedule along the lines of:
1. Place DUT on bench.
2. Breath!
3. Connect power cables between DUT and PSU. The RED wire goes to + and the BLACK wire to -. Don't forget to make sure the insulation (that's the plasticky stuff on the outside) is removed from the core (that's the shiny metal bit) at each end of each wire.
4. Breath!

and so on. Seriously, we make small batches of semi-custom industrial sensors, but the production test department has been de-skilled to the point where the 'technicians' don't even know what a resistor does. Fault-finding consists of randomly changing components and then giving up and throwing it to us in R&D. I could go on...

PS a 'resistor' is a hardware thing, for you Enterprisey guys ;)

For us "Enterprisey guys" a "resistor" is usually someone in middle-management.

wtf:

SenTree:

PS a 'resistor' is a hardware thing, for you Enterprisey guys ;)

Well yeah, but the question is what it does! I've never seen resistors do anything, they just all sit there between the other parts and waste the current...

It is a heater for the rest of the board. See, if the circuit board isn't kept at the right temp, the magic smoke will come out.

Hmmmm.

I don't know about Trac, but I've been using Mantis for a few years now and I rather like it.

It still astonishes me how many development teams use Excel to track bugs. Every interview I always ask what software or processes are used to track bugs and at least 50% or more rely on Outlook or Excel.

Strange.

wtf:

SenTree:

PS a 'resistor' is a hardware thing, for you Enterprisey guys ;)

Well yeah, but the question is what it does! I've never seen resistors do anything, they just all sit there between the other parts and waste the current...

Yep, resistors convert electrical energy to thermal energy... p = i^2*r.

LieutenantFrost:

I want to call BS on this. I really do. Unfortunately, I've ran into too many people who do stupid crap like this to not believe it.

With apologies to Lt. Frost, Im amused by all this calling BS. Frankly nothing I've read on this site in almost a year has been unbelievable.
Just yesterday, a user asked me how to display two web pages side by side. Nothing special like locked scrolling, just show two similar web pages side by side on the screen.
Uh. open two browser windows and resize them?

I could overlook the fundamental lack of computing knowledge save for the fact this user develops mission/safety critical transportation automation.

Someone:

wtf:

SenTree:

PS a 'resistor' is a hardware thing, for you Enterprisey guys ;)

Well yeah, but the question is what it does! I've never seen resistors do anything, they just all sit there between the other parts and waste the current...

It is a heater for the rest of the board. See, if the circuit board isn't kept at the right temp, the magic smoke will come out.

Not exactly come out. It could liquefy. Now, while magic smoke is good and all, magic liquid can be really awful to your board. And once that happens, nothing short of an exorcism will do to solve the problem. It's either paying a wizard for the service, or throwing the board away and buying a new one. Sad but true.

What weirds me out is the Microsoft Word document in the attachments. Did they really upload it into Bugzilla, only to print BOTH out and staple them together? This is some serious WTF right here.

KenW:

Elf:

You can make really good applications in Lotus Notes, and you can make really crappy applications in it.

Unfortunately, in my experience most of them are of the latter type. (Actually, all of them in my experience, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt here.)

I have been using Lotus Notes for 10 years now at 2 companies. Still waiting to see a good application. It is possible that the environment allows for good applications, but doesn't attract good programmers.

FDF:

You can't build non-crap on top of crap.

Sure you can!

The whole will still be crap though.

Bob:

something that is less taxing on my patience - lion taming, for example.

I fear you are making the classic mistake of confusing lions with anteaters.

Actual lions evoke a lot of emotions, but bored annoyance is not a very common one, or not for long.

OMG...

If this is real and I believe in any kind of God at all then I have to believe that some buearacrat forced those people to use the filing cabnit.

Because if a programmer, no, a group of programmers did something like that then we're all doomed. One of those idiots is gonna get employed by the goverment to write the new minuteman launch safety protocol application and we're all gonna die.

In a career like lion taming, it's not my patience that I'd be worried about.

At least in this career field my clients are much less likely to devour me.

On NOTEs.
We are using an in-house Notes app for bug tracking. It is a fully indexed, searchable DB with about 20000 documents. It can perform very complicated queries in seconds, including wonderful things like "mouse NEAR scroll". They have implemented an exclusive locking scheme to avoid the concurrent update issue another user mentioned.
I am dreading moving to a web-based application because I don't see an easy way to copy/paste screen shots to a web app.

Notes fat client: Alt+PrntScrn, Alt+Tab, Ctrl+V.

WebApp: Alt+PrntScrn, Run Paint, Ctrl+V, Save the file to disk, exit Paint, Click on Attach, browse for the file, Upload.

I am planning on pitching SnagIt or something similar, but it will still be about twice the number of steps. Any other product recommendations?

Notes Pro: Multivalue fields are extremely powerful.

Notes Con: Not many people know how to leverage it.I once had a certified, "3 years of Notes experience" programmer in a class who did not realize that Notes supported functions/subroutines. She would write multi-THOUSAND line programs in a "top down" fashion. Maybe she wrote some of those bad Notes apps.

Notes Caution: You have to take enough drugs to deaden the SQL/Relational part of your brain before you design your Notes database. It is a field-based, document database. Trying to implement a relational design will kill any hope of a good Notes application.

SenTree:

PS a 'resistor' is a hardware thing, for you Enterprisey guys ;)

Ohhhh. I thought a resistor was somebody who refused to use the new software package.