Comment On Of Course We Tested It ...

testing schmesting!

 

how you can develop something and not replicate the production environment is like coding in the dark....

Well, who actually tests a computer program with a computer, that is just ridiculous. I bet these people also use the memorizers storage, which is entirely better than some oracle!!

if you can't afford to buy something, you really shouldn't try to use
it to make money.   makes me want to open a burger joint and
serve raw hamburgers and tell people they taste good on paper but we
have no grill.

Sounds like they outsourced this job to Elbonia!

Seriously, part of the blame for this WTF falls on Ian Mc.  I don't care how many client and management blunders there were, demoing the code to clients before you've had any opportunity to try it yourself is just insane.

tster:

if you can't afford to buy something, you really shouldn't try to use it to make money.   makes me want to open a burger joint and serve raw hamburgers and tell people they taste good on paper but we have no grill.

Well you could charge more for them because they would be a delicacy!!

This is beyond belief.  How can anyone distribute code without even making sure that it compiles or gets properly parsed?

Alex Papadimoulis:

Ian was the point person to present the module to the client and, due to a slew of client and management blunders, he never had a chance to see the completed code before the demonstration.

If the client was repelled, I just hope Ian wasn't the one who got the blame... But in such case he really should have shown them a Powerpoint presentation instead of praying that some unknown code just works right the first time.

Serves 'em right for outsourcing halfway around the world! Someday management WILL realize that you get what you pay for.

Now I don't feel so bad about my last company's testing process. At least theirs was "it compiled, so Push it!"

I hate to say to but the real WTF here is with Ian... how do you let a project get all the way to client demonstration with out a single code review?

Hmm... I think some of the finer details are "lost in translation", although I quite like the way he tells it otherwise.



It was part of a tendering process, the deadline was fixed, and part of
the process was to show a single "module" working so a Powerpoint
presentation was a non-starter. I was just a programmer, so made none
of the management decissions, etc.

Remember this is back in the days before everyone had web/e-mail, etc. so communication wasn't exactly easy. We did receive a tape containing the code but it was something like half inch reel-to-reel OS/400 format, which we couldn't read, we did try to get this transfered to a format we could but that is another story involving "Expert Consultants" and internal blunder men.

Brillant. The real WTF is that they used javascript.

Aaaanyway. Ian surely can ony have himself to blame. Its incrediblt that whoever checked out the outsourcing companies did seemingly no research at all, bu to demonstrate to the clients not having even compiled previously!! Plain asking for trouble. Coding murphy's law dictates that even if it can't go wrong, it still will, so prepare as best you can.
This was simply asking for it.

These are getting out early!

Anonymous:

Sounds like they outsourced this job to Elbonia!

Seriously, part of the blame for this WTF falls on Ian Mc.  I don't care how many client and management blunders there were, demoing the code to clients before you've had any opportunity to try it yourself is just insane.

So true, and from my own experience, I don't demo anything I have never seen, not even if it was coded by my most trusted and skilled colleague. Even if the application does work with little trouble, what are the chances you will know how to operate it? (I think relying soley on your initial specifications would be a mistake.)

Alex Papadimoulis:

... due to a slew of client and management blunders...

Uh, been there, dealt with that on the management blunders issue, but how on earth do CLIENT blunders lead to having to present code you've never seen?

Alex Papadimoulis:

An early adopter of outsourcing, Ian's company...

Lesson 17: Don't be one.

For those being quick to blame Ian, if management has set up a meeting with a client, you need to send SOMEBODY. If management and the client refuse to cancel / reschedule due to the delay, well, that's their WTF not yours. You go to the meeting and hope for the best, and it's better that _you_ go than some marketing drone who will report everything is going great and promise some more features.

R.Flowers:

These are getting out early!

Anonymous:

Sounds like they outsourced this job to Elbonia!

Seriously, part of the blame for this WTF falls on Ian Mc.  I don't care how many client and management blunders there were, demoing the code to clients before you've had any opportunity to try it yourself is just insane.

So true, and from my own experience, I don't demo anything I have never seen, not even if it was coded by my most trusted and skilled colleague. Even if the application does work with little trouble, what are the chances you will know how to operate it? (I think relying soley on your initial specifications would be a mistake.)

It was actually India, and as I've implied in another post it was either go with what we had or nothing, i.e. be in with a small chance or zero chance. I think the contract was worth something like £500,000 so it was worth the risk, although I'm sure I didn't think so once I saw the code.

It sounds like Ian wasn't a decision maker, though. He was just told, "we're sending you the code now, test it and have it ready for the client demo tomorrow."

This is a pretty awesome WTF: off-shoring, awful project management, complete embarassment in front of the client. Then of course it goes over the top: developers don't have development tools. It's like those guy who used to write assembly before assemblers existed, and they compiled by hand, shouting the opcodes at each other across the room to keep each other in check.

They must have mistakenly used their VB paper to test it on..

my brain hurts, I need a beer now.

I know this.
Testing by proofreading!!!


Apparently proofreaders don't know how to handle cursors ;)

Anonymous:

It's like those guy who used to write assembly before assemblers existed, and they compiled by hand, shouting the opcodes at each other across the room to keep each other in check.

"OH YEAH? MOVL $MYCOCK, %YOURMOM"

Shouting opcodes across the room sounds like a terrible, terrible idea. No one had the forethought to write down the list and photocopy (or in those days, mimeograph) it and distribute it?

Anonymous:

For those being quick to blame Ian, if management has set up a meeting with a client, you need to send SOMEBODY. If management and the client refuse to cancel / reschedule due to the delay, well, that's their WTF not yours.

Very true...  but assuming Ian had some development experience, he must have known what was going to happen.  I can't think of a single time where "compile and present" would be an ideal strategy.  Even if the code is 100% perfect, you can issues with configuration, resources, etc...

As a rule, it seems like everytime I've tried to walk into a conference room and fire up a PowerPoint presentation cold, it never fails that *something* goes wrong.  I think I'd have a minor heart attack if I had to walk into a presentation and compile my presentation.

P.S. I would have been really funny, however, to be a fly on the wall during this particular situation.  By funny, I mean in the same way that it's funny to watch someone get kicked in the nuts.

 

Ixpah:

It was actually India, and as I've implied in another post it was either go with what we had or nothing, i.e. be in with a small chance or zero chance. I think the contract was worth something like £500,000 so it was worth the risk, although I'm sure I didn't think so once I saw the code.

Err, sorry to ask, but cant you give a hint on which WTF company this happens to be?
I really want to avoid this one.

Anonymous:

Alex Papadimoulis:

Ian was the point person to present the module to the client and, due to a slew of client and management blunders, he never had a chance to see the completed code before the demonstration.

If the client was repelled, I just hope Ian wasn't the one who got the blame... But in such case he really should have shown them a Powerpoint presentation instead of praying that some unknown code just works right the first time.

Wait, let's do it right: he should have printed out the power point presentation, put it on a wooden table, taken a digital picture, ...

codeman:

Anonymous:

Alex Papadimoulis:

Ian was the point person to present the module to the client and, due to a slew of client and management blunders, he never had a chance to see the completed code before the demonstration.

If the client was repelled, I just hope Ian wasn't the one who got the blame... But in such case he really should have shown them a Powerpoint presentation instead of praying that some unknown code just works right the first time.

Wait, let's do it right: he should have printed out the power point presentation, put it on a wooden table, taken a digital picture, ...

....all in front of the client. Brillant!!

Ixpah:

R.Flowers:

These are getting out early!

Anonymous:

Sounds like they outsourced this job to Elbonia!

Seriously, part of the blame for this WTF falls on Ian Mc.  I don't care how many client and management blunders there were, demoing the code to clients before you've had any opportunity to try it yourself is just insane.

So true, and from my own experience, I don't demo anything I have never seen, not even if it was coded by my most trusted and skilled colleague. Even if the application does work with little trouble, what are the chances you will know how to operate it? (I think relying soley on your initial specifications would be a mistake.)

It was actually India, and as I've implied in another post it was either go with what we had or nothing, i.e. be in with a small chance or zero chance. I think the contract was worth something like £500,000 so it was worth the risk, although I'm sure I didn't think so once I saw the code.

So what was the outcome of this endeavour?

Did you get the project to completion, or did the customer(or you) break the deal?

Ixpah:

...

We did receive a tape containing the code but it was something like half inch reel-to-reel OS/400 format, which we couldn't read....

I guess you were lucky to get it in magnetic media at all. I mean, if you're not going use a compiler, why even bother with a computer? Send the code scrawled on notebook paper. That'll ensure your bid is lowest.

--Rank

Not sure if this is the right place to ask this...

I've been reading this forum for a while, and have seen zillions of references to Paula and her Brillance (I've even made a couple myself), but can't find the original post (searching doesn't help as every reference to either is returned).

Given this forum's content, I can imagine the context, but I am curious to read it for myself: does anyone have a link to the original Paula post?

I'm with others who think the real WTF is:

1) not establishing QA and testing protocols and expectations with the outsourced programming service provider;

2) not demanding to see the testing results of application code (read YOUR companyy's intellectual property) on a regular basis;

3) not conducting regular code reviews once the application code is beginning to formalize;

4) not pushing back on management and saying "we need to conduct further internal QA prior to demonstrating this application which has received no formal review to date."

It much more difficult to recover from skepticism and doubt arising from demonstrating a bug-ridden application than the egg you get on your face from delaying a demo or presentation.

Anonymous:

It sounds like Ian wasn't a decision maker, though. He was just told, "we're sending you the code now, test it and have it ready for the client demo tomorrow."

This is a pretty awesome WTF: off-shoring, awful project management, complete embarassment in front of the client. Then of course it goes over the top: developers don't have development tools. It's like those guy who used to write assembly before assemblers existed, and they compiled by hand, shouting the opcodes at each other across the room to keep each other in check.

I think it would be better to bring all of these core capabilities in-house (awful proj mgmt, embarassment in front of client, no dev tools).  We, here in the good ol' US of A, could definitely improve shareholder returns by spreading the "value" across all constituencies:

   Screw the shareholders.
   Flog the employees.
   Ignore the subcontractors.
   Have management shoot the customer and themselves in the foot (with one bullet to cut costs).

We'd also be able to quickly push out a disaster-oriented product, getting the client to that wrong answer, that much sooner - on "paper only", of course.

Go Team!

tster:

if you can't afford to buy something, you really shouldn't try to use
it to make money.   makes me want to open a burger joint and
serve raw hamburgers and tell people they taste good on paper but we
have no grill.

Tsk. Your branding is terrible. If you called it Steak Tartare, you could double the price and snooty food critics would give it rave reviews.

byte_lancer:

Ixpah:

It was actually India, and as I've implied in another post it was either go with what we had or nothing, i.e. be in with a small chance or zero chance. I think the contract was worth something like £500,000 so it was worth the risk, although I'm sure I didn't think so once I saw the code.

Err, sorry to ask, but cant you give a hint on which WTF company this happens to be?
I really want to avoid this one.

Hmm... how to answer that without the risk of libel...
http://sambharmafia.blogspot.com/2005/09/back-to-square-d.html
That "maybe" the one.

codeman:

Given this forum's content, I can imagine the context, but I am curious to read it for myself: does anyone have a link to the original Paula post?

But of course!

With complete agreement, kiddingly:

Jt:

I'm with others who think the real WTF is:

1) not establishing QA and testing protocols and expectations with the outsourced programming service provider;

Well, if they sent code printouts, they could have simply read the printouts...

Jt:

2) not demanding to see the testing results of application code (read YOUR companyy's intellectual property) on a regular basis;

They could have, but seeing code printouts might not have helped, depending upon the timeframe, code size and complexity (ever tried to walk through 2 million lines of code?)

Jt:

3) not conducting regular code reviews once the application code is beginning to formalize;

Repeating the above potentially useless exercise with printouts might not prove fruitful

Jt:

4) not pushing back on management and saying "we need to conduct further internal QA prior to demonstrating this application which has received no formal review to date."

It much more difficult to recover from skepticism and doubt arising from demonstrating a bug-ridden application than the egg you get on your face from delaying a demo or presentation.

Seriously, we don't know that they (the developers) didn't push back - sometimes management just foolishly overrules developers, no matter how right the (developers) might be.

Anonymous:

It much more difficult to recover from skepticism and doubt arising from demonstrating a bug-ridden application than the egg you get on your face from delaying a demo or presentation.

As I've already stated, the deadline was 100% fixed, as it was a tendering process with other parties competeing for it. And needless to say we didn't get it.

SolidSilver:

codeman:

Given this forum's content, I can imagine the context, but I am curious to read it for myself: does anyone have a link to the original Paula post?

But of course!

O...M...G... - thanks :)

Search for Paula Bean, you should find it

On web apps I alwais provide a "parameter table" and some "integrated
editor", so its posible to modified the application on "real time",
even 2 min before the demo.  So... often you edit your application
to fix error the last min. This bootstrap features (application editing
itself) save lives!



Others developpers seems to do that, also, adding parameters tables to
configurations, so market drones can change whatever the client will
see before the demo withouth/with need of dev's.



<mad laughts>I dont need stinky text editors to code web apps, gimme a browser is all I need.</mad laughts>






--Tei

After the embarrassing gaffe at the client was finally over, Ian
inquired with the overseas coders to see if they even tested the code
before delivering it. "Of course," the lead programmer proclaimed, "we
tested it on paper."

Unbelievably they didn't have COBOL or Oracle installed on their development workstations or servers.

<rant>
And that's where I would buy a plane ticket to wherever the hell they were, buy a baseball bat at the nearest store, and proceed to show them what happens to people who test "digital" things via "analog" methods.

If this honestly happened to me, I don't see how I could keep myself from killing the lead developer. People like that are a discrace to software engineers everywhere.
</rant>

Too late I guess...

Anonymous:

Sounds like they outsourced this job to Elbonia!

Seriously, part of the blame for this WTF falls on Ian Mc.  I don't care how many client and management blunders there were, demoing the code to clients before you've had any opportunity to try it yourself is just insane.

I immediately thought of Dilbert too. It sounds exactly like the one in which the Elbonians don't have any computers to do the outsourced work, so they have an Elbonian with a box on his head pretending to be the computer.

I'm not pinning the blane on Ian Mc, though. It sounds more like a PHB saying something like "You're giving the demo to the client tomorrow. What do you mean, you haven't seen the software yet? It's been thoroughly tested by proficient coders, so obviously it can't go wrong. No, we can't reschedule, or we'll miss the deadline and lose the deal. This negative attitude of yours isn't going to look good on your performance review, you know".

Anonymous:

On web apps I alwais provide a "parameter table" and some "integrated editor", so its posible to modified the application on "real time", even 2 min before the demo.  So... often you edit your application to fix error the last min. This bootstrap features (application editing itself) save lives!

Others developpers seems to do that, also, adding parameters tables to configurations, so market drones can change whatever the client will see before the demo withouth/with need of dev's.

<mad laughts>I dont need stinky text editors to code web apps, gimme a browser is all I need.</mad laughts>


--Tei

I can see how this might save a developer, but a marketing-type drone might use it to create the illusion of non-existent features, that the developer would then be on the hook to deliver - could potentially backfire!

GoatCheez:

After the embarrassing gaffe at the client was finally over, Ian inquired with the overseas coders to see if they even tested the code before delivering it. "Of course," the lead programmer proclaimed, "we tested it on paper."

Unbelievably they didn't have COBOL or Oracle installed on their development workstations or servers.

<rant>
And that's where I would buy a plane ticket to wherever the hell they were, buy a baseball bat at the nearest store, and proceed to show them what happens to people who test "digital" things via "analog" methods.

If this honestly happened to me, I don't see how I could keep myself from killing the lead developer. People like that are a discrace to software engineers everywhere.
</rant>

Hopefully they have baseball bats.  Or maybe a cricket bat will do?

Alex Papadimoulis:

 inquired with the overseas coders to see if they even tested the code before delivering it. "Of course," the lead programmer proclaimed, "we tested it on paper."

they should have at least upgraded their "on paper" compiler to make sure it compiles... :)

maybe management spent little time for preparations for their presentations to the client... in return, the client should also spend little time too to these "highly proficient COBOL programmers"-infested programming company...

oh well at least they have computers...

Ixpah:

R.Flowers:

These are getting out early!

Anonymous:

Sounds like they outsourced this job to Elbonia!

Seriously, part of the blame for this WTF falls on Ian Mc.  I don't care how many client and management blunders there were, demoing the code to clients before you've had any opportunity to try it yourself is just insane.

So true, and from my own experience, I don't demo anything I have never seen, not even if it was coded by my most trusted and skilled colleague. Even if the application does work with little trouble, what are the chances you will know how to operate it? (I think relying soley on your initial specifications would be a mistake.)

It was actually India, and as I've implied in another post it was either go with what we had or nothing, i.e. be in with a small chance or zero chance. I think the contract was worth something like £500,000 so it was worth the risk, although I'm sure I didn't think so once I saw the code.

Just in case Ian didn't know, Elbonia is the fictitious country in Dilbert where things are outsourced, including development.  People walk around waist-deep in mud, and I don't think they have computers there, either.  (Their phones are metal cans connected with string.)

Reminds me of myself... constantly testing and retesting designs in my head.  Of course, they ever get as far as the coding environment.  For the best, probably.

GoatCheez:

After the embarrassing gaffe at the client was finally over, Ian inquired with the overseas coders to see if they even tested the code before delivering it. "Of course," the lead programmer proclaimed, "we tested it on paper."

Unbelievably they didn't have COBOL or Oracle installed on their development workstations or servers.

<rant>
And that's where I would buy a plane ticket to wherever the hell they were, buy a baseball bat at the nearest store, and proceed to show them what happens to people who test "digital" things via "analog" methods.

If this honestly happened to me, I don't see how I could keep myself from killing the lead developer. People like that are a discrace to software engineers everywhere.
</rant>

*Enter the office holding the bat

"Hi, guys.  Since you guys seem so interested in testing programs by running through the code in reality with various inputs, I thought you could all help me with the testing of this new ganster-type first-person-shooter game we're working on in the Las Vegas office."

Ixpah:

R.Flowers:

So true, and from my own experience, I don't demo anything I have never seen, not even if it was coded by my most trusted and skilled colleague. Even if the application does work with little trouble, what are the chances you will know how to operate it? (I think relying soley on your initial specifications would be a mistake.)

It was actually India, and as I've implied in another post it was either go with what we had or nothing, i.e. be in with a small chance or zero chance. I think the contract was worth something like £500,000 so it was worth the risk, although I'm sure I didn't think so once I saw the code.

Sorry, I did not notice your earlier post. Sometimes the fire drives us to the edge of the cliff, and we have to jump. Maybe if we're lucky we land in a river.

I don't want you to tell me the name of the companies involved; I want to know what you felt like at that moment, and what you were able to do (if anything) to help the situation. Example: "Excuse me, I have to go to the bathroom because I have crapped my pants..." :)

Anonymous:

GoatCheez:

After the embarrassing gaffe at the client was finally over, Ian
inquired with the overseas coders to see if they even tested the code
before delivering it. "Of course," the lead programmer proclaimed, "we
tested it on paper."

Unbelievably they didn't have COBOL or Oracle installed on their development workstations or servers.

<rant>
And
that's where I would buy a plane ticket to wherever the hell they were,
buy a baseball bat at the nearest store, and proceed to show them what
happens to people who test "digital" things via "analog" methods.

If
this honestly happened to me, I don't see how I could keep myself from
killing the lead developer. People like that are a discrace to software
engineers everywhere.
</rant>

*Enter the office holding the bat

"Hi, guys.  Since you guys seem so interested in testing programs by
running through the code in reality with various inputs, I thought you
could all help me with the testing of this new ganster-type
first-person-shooter game we're working on in the Las Vegas office."

Exactly what I was thinking.... I should spell check my posts as well lol.

Did the people testing it have a green and a red marker pen?

Is this known as paper cutting edge development?

 

 

 

byte_lancer:

Ixpah:

It was actually India, and as I've implied in another post it was either go with what we had or nothing, i.e. be in with a small chance or zero chance. I think the contract was worth something like £500,000 so it was worth the risk, although I'm sure I didn't think so once I saw the code.

Err, sorry to ask, but cant you give a hint on which WTF company this happens to be?
I really want to avoid this one.

I hear they have TRS-80s now so they can do some real testing.