Comment On Synergized Student Consulting

Wait, they're paying a student $20k for a hacked-up application that is slow, ugly, buggy and doesn't print, and they later hire him back again to fix his previous disaster?

Was Giuseppe's dad called 'Don' by any chance?

DAMMIT! All these wannabes making all the cash! I need to network -- BADLY. Unfortunately, I'm trapped on a social island that's not on a list of port-of-calls.

It's sad but that just the way the real world works. BS (as in bovine fecal matter, not Bachelor of Science) will get you much further than actual knowledge.

Bitter Like Quinine:

Wait, they're paying a student $20k for a hacked-up application that is slow, ugly, buggy and doesn't print, and

It doesn't say they paid it :)

Bitter Like Quinine:

they later hire him back again to fix his previous disaster?

That's not necessarily a bad thing. "eventually" isn't defined as a given time. He might have learnt erm, something, by then.

What's this... am I really weeping blood?

Uhmmmm... only $20k? I know of some other student that became
the richest man in the world just by selling a slow, ugly and
buggy operating system he didn't even make.

Uhh, $20k for an app that's basically Publisher or Pagemaker with a couple of extras, but doesn't actually work?

*head explodes*

I submitted this WTF, and I can tell you Chris, they refused to pay. So..umm.. "Giuseppe" and his mom had talked, and since she heard the "requirements" being laid out, and they figured it met them, they decided to sue. I don't know what came of it, I don't think a lawsuit was ever actually filed, but it's a definite posibility for why they rehired him. That, and the fact that he was the only one who had any idea how the damn thing worked.

And no, I can tell you he hasn't learned yet. He is toying with multithreading on Synergy2 (since the original was lost in a mis-format.. no backups - though he did email me asking if I happened to still have a copy. I didn't, unfortunately for this site.)

someone:

Uhmmmm... only $20k? I know of some other student that became
the richest man in the world just by selling a slow, ugly and
buggy operating system he didn't even make.

Apple is about the hardware, not MacOSX so they are selling slow, nice and buggy hardware with some iSoftware... UhOh! You were talking about Mr Gates, yeah it sux2bu or me. See the bright side, at least my kids won't have pimples or use glasses or be beaten in school by little girls:

LittleGirl: Look, Gates Jr got a BED (Blue Eye of Death)

Another one

Gates Jr: Mommy Mommy, kids in school hate my dad.

Mommy Gates: Don't worry baby, you'll see revenge. Just wait until you release Windows Vista Linux Live XP on 2025. Now go clean daddy's ferrari.

CAPTCHA: Do you think a "Slashbot" would come with this clever jokes?!? Maybe a googlebot.

Uhh, $20k for an app that's basically Publisher or Pagemaker with a couple of extras, but doesn't actually work?

*head explodes*

Blame it on the anonymization process. This was actually custom tracking software that had this poster printing functionality tacked on afterwards.

I remember my "put everything in tabs" vb stage. It lasted all of 10 minutes before I realized doing it this way was retarded and started looking for better ways.

Why can't people have mental "this is taking too long, something must be wrong" flags?!

AgentConundrum:

He is toying with multithreading on Synergy2...

Holy mother of God, he can't get it right the first time, so he gets himself a bigger gun with which to shoot himself in the foot? I eagerly await the 10+ syncronization WTFs that this project alone will surely spawn...

I should really check my chat logs when I get home to find the actual conversation we had when he explained his attempts at multithreading.

GettinSadda:

What's this... am I really weeping blood?

Are you taking meningitis medication? That might do it.

Hey - this is giving bad name to all starting students :( Let's point out that his knowledge wasn't checked, his progress wasn't really controlled.
And stop writing about family connections at work as if it's a bad thing. Yes - it is a bad thing if it's the only criteria, but not in general.

I've started my work because of parent recommendation. I've been underpaid, doing small tasks and getting lots of experience. I've made lots of mistakes in the process for sure, but I've completed every task. Now I'm linux and solaris admin with 6 years of experience (ok - 2 years of googling and 4 years of real experience) and I haven't even finished my studies yet. I know the company really well and did some development for them as well. Is that bad in any way?

Get students / people from college to do the work - give them small tasks and clear direction. If it works out, you'll get a great worker that knows your company inside-out. If you're a good company they'll be willing to work for you after studies as well. If it doesn't work out and *you* don't notice it after a couple of days - it's your fault really.... :(

Give those people a chance - everyone has to start somewhere.

Uberbandit:

someone:

Uhmmmm... only $20k? I know of some other student that became
the richest man in the world just by selling a slow, ugly and
buggy operating system he didn't even make.

Apple is about the hardware, not MacOSX so they are selling slow, nice and buggy hardware with some iSoftware... UhOh! You were talking about Mr Gates, yeah it sux2bu or me. See the bright side, at least my kids won't have pimples or use glasses or be beaten in school by little girls:

LittleGirl: Look, Gates Jr got a BED (Blue Eye of Death)

Another one

Gates Jr: Mommy Mommy, kids in school hate my dad.

Mommy Gates: Don't worry baby, you'll see revenge. Just wait until you release Windows Vista Linux Live XP on 2025. Now go clean daddy's ferrari.

CAPTCHA: Do you think a "Slashbot" would come with this clever jokes?!? Maybe a googlebot.

This is one of the least coherent posts I've ever read.

To be fair, he didn't get the job because of the family connection. He was quite clear to me whenever I brought it up.

I know the Real WTF is that they kept hiring him back, letting him continue dispite his horrible code, etc. The point of the story was that he isn't getting any better, just more dangerous. He has no plans to finish school and seems quite content to just keep creating this hacky, ugly code. He even asked me to go into business with him. For obvious reasons, I declined.

From where does Worse Than Failure get the delicious images that accompany the message text?
-Deliciously yours,
BunnyRabbit

p.s. Why does everyone post their captchas? Is it just a fun meme?

CAPTCHA: doom (Document Object Oriented Model?)

Tabs are bad?

I have 6 tabs on a form, each tab contains between 3-6 controls. It helps to logically categorize information. How can that be bad?

CAPTCHA: doom - Perhaps the feeling of foreboding in my stomach.

There's nothing wrong with tabs, when used properly. Having one form with multiple layers of tabs, with over 1000 controls on the form, many of which are bound to adhoc sql queries (ie. not views), all populated at form load.. I hope you see why that's bad.

3-6 controls on a tab is fine, having 100 is quite another. It allows a lot of background processing to happen which holds up everything else.

In and of itself, tabbing isn't bad. You're talking about 25-30 controls total, though. This monstrosity had 1000. That's Just Stupid.

I do see how 1000 controls on a form spread across multiple layers of tabs are.

FWIW, in all of the time I've been programming (6 years, not a long time), I've never really had to think about the implications of GUI design -- that is, only 2 of my projects ever got into GUI issues (one was a VBA app for the Army, the other is a C# app I just finished for a non-profit), so I've never delved into the practical implications of various choices.

I just remember what was taught in class: Keep it simple, logical, and don't clutter the fuck out of the forms.

CAPTCHA: Quake: I do this in my boots when I fear doom (Previous Captcha).

Sad:

It's sad but that just the way the real world works. BS (as in bovine fecal matter, not Bachelor of Science) will get you much further than actual knowledge.

That must be why academia is so focussed on BS.

BunnyRabbit:

From where does Worse Than Failure get the delicious images that accompany the message text?
-Deliciously yours,
BunnyRabbit

p.s. Why does everyone post their captchas? Is it just a fun meme?

CAPTCHA: doom (Document Object Oriented Model?)

I'm sure the images are royalty free, just google that term.
As for the captchas, yes it is a fun meme when you do something with it (like you have), otherwise it gets a bit annoying.

AgentConundrum:

To be fair, he didn't get the job because of the family connection. He was quite clear to me whenever I brought it up.

I know the Real WTF is that they kept hiring him back, letting him continue dispite his horrible code, etc. The point of the story was that he isn't getting any better, just more dangerous. He has no plans to finish school and seems quite content to just keep creating this hacky, ugly code. He even asked me to go into business with him. For obvious reasons, I declined.

Well, then at least he was able to sell this thing. Just go into business with him, but let him write *you* the code. Maybe he needs some persuasion. He sells the stuff you code, you share the profit and welcome in the world of business!

S|i(3_x:

Sad:

It's sad but that just the way the real world works. BS (as in bovine fecal matter, not Bachelor of Science) will get you much further than actual knowledge.

That must be why academia is so focussed on BS.

I have been in this business for years (nearly 15 now) and don't have a degree. I worked my butt off in the beginning to overcome the lack of a degree.

With that said I actually have gone back and inquired about various institutions that I could get a degree at and found something disheartening. In order to get my two year degree I would be studying languages 10 years out of date or more. Am I familiar with them, kinda, but I haven't used them in nearly that long. Can I test out? I doubt it, my practical knowledge of those languages is nearly gone.

So I would spend two years getting a degree that won't help me a bit. After that, the second half of the four year degree is actually worth it. Problem is, I can't do that until I have the two year.

So I basically said screw it because by the time I actually get one that means anything I will be ready to retire. I'll save the money and add it to my retirement fund instead.

I've met worthless programmers with and without degrees. I've met amazing programmers with and without degrees.

The biggest benefit to a degree is that a lot of full-time positions require them.

Uberbandit:

Apple is about the hardware, not MacOSX so they are selling slow, nice and buggy hardware with some iSoftware... UhOh! You were talking about Mr Gates, yeah it sux2bu or me. See the bright side, at least my kids won't have pimples or use glasses or be beaten in school by little girls:

LittleGirl: Look, Gates Jr got a BED (Blue Eye of Death)

Another one

Gates Jr: Mommy Mommy, kids in school hate my dad.

Mommy Gates: Don't worry baby, you'll see revenge. Just wait until you release Windows Vista Linux Live XP on 2025. Now go clean daddy's ferrari.

CAPTCHA: Do you think a "Slashbot" would come with this clever jokes?!? Maybe a googlebot.

* You don't have a clue about Macs.
* You are posting total gibberish.

AgentConundrum:

I submitted this WTF, and I can tell you Chris, they refused to pay

Are you and Giuseppe still friends?

"yeaaaahhh duuuuude... I'm gonna write some cooode maaaan..."

Honestly, that thumbs-up picture next to the article annoys me.

Is there some reason that this site promotes appearances with work skill? Please, next time you want to put up an article about a fresh WTFer with messy VB code, make it someone who is wearing a suit and tie. :P

As for the poor fellow who wrote this code-- that's too bad. I hope his skills improve some day. If your heart is truly in it, you will improve. If you are just trying to make ends meet and hate writing/designing the code, then you need to find a new line of work.

But I wouldn't fret about his monetary success. Are you happy writing code now? Good. Are you keeping yourself alert to WTFs around you and in your own code? Good. :) Man, that's the true life lesson. I should post some of my own WTFs up here... That would be nice and humbling. Perhaps embarrassing, but why the hell not?

akatherder:

I've met worthless programmers with and without degrees. I've met amazing programmers with and without degrees.

The biggest benefit to a degree is that a lot of full-time positions require them.

Actually once you reach the years of experience I have, with a track record that is proven, the degree is a no-op. It becomes easy to replace degree with number of years of experience in this field if you can prove your worth.

barf indeedy:

"yeaaaahhh duuuuude... I'm gonna write some cooode maaaan..."

Honestly, that thumbs-up picture next to the article annoys me.

Is there some reason that this site promotes appearances with work skill? Please, next time you want to put up an article about a fresh WTFer with messy VB code, make it someone who is wearing a suit and tie. :P

Well, you may have issue with this and I understand it, but I don't feel that the image is wrong. I think it adequately represents the image of the average student, not the poor programmer. Many times in the past Alex has used the "dude in a suit" to represent an article, and we all know nearly every article here is about some stupid thing someone has done.

I do remember one rule though: "We do not post student code." The rule was broken in the past and I think it was wrong. This time though I think it is right. even though it was written by a current student, it was written in the context of a professional application for profit. Although it sounds like this really does still look like "student code."

My first independant contract was to convert a similar system from Access to SQL Server 7. The estimate was one month, but I uncovered so much that needed changing I was on that project for close to a year.

To start with, it was a shared Access database, used by about six or seven accounts clerks. Each form had one DAO Data control for each drop down, some forms had up to seventeen data controls!

The sequential document numbers were determined by trying an insert, and reacting to a duplicate key error by incrementing the number and trying again, until the insert worked. Because the serial number was a string, the increment was done column by column, so if the last column was 9 it became 0 and the second column incremented!

KattMan:

barf indeedy:

"yeaaaahhh duuuuude... I'm gonna write some cooode maaaan..."

Honestly, that thumbs-up picture next to the article annoys me.

Is there some reason that this site promotes appearances with work skill? Please, next time you want to put up an article about a fresh WTFer with messy VB code, make it someone who is wearing a suit and tie. :P

Well, you may have issue with this and I understand it, but I don't feel that the image is wrong. I think it adequately represents the image of the average student, not the poor programmer. Many times in the past Alex has used the "dude in a suit" to represent an article, and we all know nearly every article here is about some stupid thing someone has done.

yeah... I've counted plenty of college students in such attire, so point taken. :) I guess it's always unnerved me that it seems to be a common view of certain companies out there, as though "the suit makes the man".

Nor am I saying I wouldn't wear a suit for the right job. I surely will for a great workplace. Although that doesn't mean I have to like the suit. ;-)

AgentConundrum:

I submitted this WTF, and I can tell you Chris, they refused to pay. So..umm.. "Giuseppe" and his mom had talked, and since she heard the "requirements" being laid out, and they figured it met them, they decided to sue. I don't know what came of it, I don't think a lawsuit was ever actually filed, but it's a definite posibility for why they rehired him. That, and the fact that he was the only one who had any idea how the damn thing worked.

And no, I can tell you he hasn't learned yet. He is toying with multithreading on Synergy2 (since the original was lost in a mis-format.. no backups - though he did email me asking if I happened to still have a copy. I didn't, unfortunately for this site.)

So why tell the story here, hehe. Did this guy sleep with your girlfriend or something?

KattMan:

S|i(3_x:

Sad:

It's sad but that just the way the real world works. BS (as in bovine fecal matter, not Bachelor of Science) will get you much further than actual knowledge.

That must be why academia is so focussed on BS.

I have been in this business for years (nearly 15 now) and don't have a degree. I worked my butt off in the beginning to overcome the lack of a degree.

With that said I actually have gone back and inquired about various institutions that I could get a degree at and found something disheartening. In order to get my two year degree I would be studying languages 10 years out of date or more. Am I familiar with them, kinda, but I haven't used them in nearly that long. Can I test out? I doubt it, my practical knowledge of those languages is nearly gone.

So I would spend two years getting a degree that won't help me a bit. After that, the second half of the four year degree is actually worth it. Problem is, I can't do that until I have the two year.

So I basically said screw it because by the time I actually get one that means anything I will be ready to retire. I'll save the money and add it to my retirement fund instead.

The point of getting a CS degree is to learn about computer science topics in general, not specific technologies like programming languages. For example, a data structures class will teach you about hash tables and B-trees as abstract entities, not the data structure parts of the C++ STL or the .NET collection classes.

For what it's worth, I think studying CS in general is a good thing and can vastly improve the quality of the code you write. Even if you don't go to school, nothing is stopping you from hitting a bookstore and picking up some textbooks.

James:

AgentConundrum:

He is toying with multithreading on Synergy2...

Holy mother of God, he can't get it right the first time, so he gets himself a bigger gun with which to shoot himself in the foot? I eagerly await the 10+ syncronization WTFs that this project alone will surely spawn...

Giving this guy multithreading is like giving a loaded Uzi to a three year old.

Are you and Giuseppe still friends?

We do talk from time to time, but we never had much in common. I moved in with a friend and his roommate. Giuseppe was the friends roommate. The friend moved to another city and I stuck around a while longer. I left for a job on the east coast and I don't hear much from him anymore. Can't say I mind though.

Pat:

AgentConundrum:

I submitted this WTF, and I can tell you Chris, they refused to pay. So..umm.. "Giuseppe" and his mom had talked, and since she heard the "requirements" being laid out, and they figured it met them, they decided to sue. I don't know what came of it, I don't think a lawsuit was ever actually filed, but it's a definite posibility for why they rehired him. That, and the fact that he was the only one who had any idea how the damn thing worked.

And no, I can tell you he hasn't learned yet. He is toying with multithreading on Synergy2 (since the original was lost in a mis-format.. no backups - though he did email me asking if I happened to still have a copy. I didn't, unfortunately for this site.)

So why tell the story here, hehe. Did this guy sleep with your girlfriend or something?

lol no. Just reading his code often made me say "WTF"

derobins:

The point of getting a CS degree is to learn about computer science topics in general, not specific technologies like programming languages. For example, a data structures class will teach you about hash tables and B-trees as abstract entities, not the data structure parts of the C++ STL or the .NET collection classes.

For what it's worth, I think studying CS in general is a good thing and can vastly improve the quality of the code you write. Even if you don't go to school, nothing is stopping you from hitting a bookstore and picking up some textbooks.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, thats why I thought of going back, to formalize what I know and fill any gaps that may have formed. Recall I said this realization was disheartening, because theory is not being taught, just the languages, theory seems secondary.

I have gotten where I am by working hard, hitting the books on my own time, I have half a degree but never finished way back when. I took all the theory but none of the "soft classes" like English and such to attain the requirements for the degree.

Things like what I saw in the curriculum may be the reason we have TheDailyWTF to waste ur time on these days. At least something good is coming from it.

KattMan:

Actually once you reach the years of experience I have, with a track record that is proven, the degree is a no-op. It becomes easy to replace degree with number of years of experience in this field if you can prove your worth.

While that would be the most logical thing to do, it's completely wrong. There are places that won't hire people without a degree and without certain certifications. It's stupid, but it happens.

My buddy is going to school with an old co-worker of mine who got laid off. I was there for 9 years and he was there at least 6 years before me (plus other positions). So with 15+ years experience he needed to go get a degree.

Then again, we are in Michigan. Finding a job here is a difficult for anyone.

I remember my "put everything in tabs" vb stage. It lasted all of 10 minutes before I realized doing it this way was retarded and started looking for better ways.

Why can't people have mental "this is taking too long, something must be wrong" flags?!

That's because they DON'T KNOW how long it's SUPPOSED to take. Without a frame of reference, how can they judge? (This is where having another expert you can actually trust would help...)

I've never programmed in Visual Basic or Access.

When you're talking about Forms (the GUI stuff, WinForms, etc?) tied into SQL statements or DAOs, is that like, direct? No concept of separation of the view and the model/data? No interface between the two so that replacing the application with a webapp wouldn't require rewriting the entire app, only the front end? Basically a big munged block of code?

craaazy, man.

Actually, I guess that the forms were draggedanddropped, so I assume the actual code would have been put in a separate location that is easier to reuse?

KattMan:

I have gotten where I am by working hard, hitting the books on my own time, I have half a degree but never finished way back when. I took all the theory but none of the "soft classes" like English and such to attain the requirements for the degree.

There's a Real WTF! University isn't just about getting qualified for work...

I've met worthless programmers with and without degrees. I've met amazing programmers with and without degrees.

The biggest benefit to a degree is that a lot of full-time positions require them.

See http://babylon9.blogspot.com/2006_10_01_archive.html section Titled "When Certification Matters - and When It Doesn't". But then, you probably already know that. ;)

dkf:

There's a Real WTF! University isn't just about getting qualified for work...

Was it ever ?

Actually once you reach the years of experience I have, with a track record that is proven, the degree is a no-op. It becomes easy to replace degree with number of years of experience in this field if you can prove your worth.

That depends entirely on what country you happen to live in, as I found to my chagrin when I moved to Germany.

AdT:

Uberbandit:

Apple is about the hardware, not MacOSX so they are selling slow, nice and buggy hardware with some iSoftware... UhOh! You were talking about Mr Gates, yeah it sux2bu or me. See the bright side, at least my kids won't have pimples or use glasses or be beaten in school by little girls:

LittleGirl: Look, Gates Jr got a BED (Blue Eye of Death)

Another one

Gates Jr: Mommy Mommy, kids in school hate my dad.

Mommy Gates: Don't worry baby, you'll see revenge. Just wait until you release Windows Vista Linux Live XP on 2025. Now go clean daddy's ferrari.

CAPTCHA: Do you think a "Slashbot" would come with this clever jokes?!? Maybe a googlebot.

* You don't have a clue about Macs.
* You are posting total gibberish.

Here comes a Mac user^H^H^H^Hcommunity member.
You can easily find them, thanks to their famous sense of humour.

Geesh. Sometimes I wonder if some people don't bother to find the easier better way of doing things because of the challenge of doing it that really difficult convoluted way that first comes to mind to novices is so hard to implement. If you can get it to work at all that way you must be leet!

barf indeedy:

As for the poor fellow who wrote this code-- that's too bad. I hope his skills improve some day. If your heart is truly in it, you will improve. If you are just trying to make ends meet and hate writing/designing the code, then you need to find a new line of work.

I wish that were true... that if you love the code, the code will improve. The problem is that sometimes your love of the code blinds you to its faults.

Haven't you ever had to follow behind a SuperProgrammer? We had one. His code was a marvel of object-oriented design, such that it was like nothing else in the application. In fact, he consistently *refused* to make his code work like *anything* else in the application. He had his own naming conventions, his own set of globals for input and output... and of course, since it all made perfect sense to him, there were NO COMMENTS at all.

We theorized that the problem was that he was really a C++ guy, and that he was having trouble "dumbing down" to mere VB. But even the C++ .dll's he left behind haven't been significantly modified in years -- not because they work so well (they don't), but because anyone who spends any time in the code feels lucky to escape.

If you hate programming, you'll probably generate crappy code... but at least there's a chance you'll recognize it as crap. The SuperProgrammer of this stripe, though, loves his code... in fact, he loves it to death. I suspect this is the problem at the heart of today's story.