Comment On Waiting to Excel

I nominate this article for the "worst pun in a title" award.

Alex Papadimoulis:

It was Seth's first day on the job.

Don't you mean Seth?

Maybe Gabe misheard somebody talking about ExcEmEl as a proven configuration technology...

Problems all around here.

Ugly-arse way of storing/processing config data notwithstanding...

The written instructions said to update the field with the new value. Nothing was mentioned regarding implied formatting. The user did a perfectly normal thing, didn't notice that the apostrophe showed up as part of the actual text, and saved it (can't really fault the user here).

The validation code didn't take this likely scenario into account (though the developers claim a macro update would solve this).

TRWTF is Gabe.

This all looks awfully familiar..

Sounds like Gabe is Canadian, eh?

It's stories like these that boost my morale at my current job.

This may be the first case using Access would be an improvement (marginal though it is).

Hi everyone. I have been gone a while because I have been in training, and what I was in training for would be perfect to solve this problem: Filemaker Pro.

There really isn't a problem that Filemaker can't solve better than Visual Basic OR any of the Office products that Microsoft has written.

In fact I am in the process of converting our main business application to use Filemaker Pro right now, based on my recommendation after coming back from training.

I just put all of our config information into Filemaker. Problem solved.

TopCod3r:

Hi everyone. I have been gone a while because I have been in training, and what I was in training for would be perfect to solve this problem: Filemaker Pro.

There really isn't a problem that Filemaker can't solve better than Visual Basic OR any of the Office products that Microsoft has written.

In fact I am in the process of converting our main business application to use Filemaker Pro right now, based on my recommendation after coming back from training.

I just put all of our config information into Filemaker. Problem solved.

I agree. The real WTF is why anyone uses anything other than Filemaker for anything. It's the greatest.

so...already busy on writing the third installment of MFD?

Wretch:

TopCod3r:

Hi everyone. I have been gone a while because I have been in training, and what I was in training for would be perfect to solve this problem: Filemaker Pro.

There really isn't a problem that Filemaker can't solve better than Visual Basic OR any of the Office products that Microsoft has written.

In fact I am in the process of converting our main business application to use Filemaker Pro right now, based on my recommendation after coming back from training.

I just put all of our config information into Filemaker. Problem solved.

I agree. The real WTF is why anyone uses anything other than Filemaker for anything. It's the greatest.

Of course Filemaker Pro is great for the front end, but I would think you'd want something really robust like Access as the back end.

Clearly their problem is they allowed their dumb users to type in apostrophes. All they had to do was install a Win32 hook that would intercept keystrokes sent to Excel and swallow invalid key entries. I suspect the OCR code to detect if cursor's on a text field would've been pretty elegant.

JD:

...Multiplan for DOS...

TopCod3r:

...Filemaker...

Interesting - a "cross troll". What are the odds?

Anonymous:

JD:

...Multiplan for DOS...

TopCod3r:

...Filemaker...

Interesting - a "cross troll". What are the odds?

Excuse me, but not trolling over here. Just exercising my sense of humour in a way that cannot possibly be taken seriously. This is not a troll, just a bit of light humour.

I'm suprised that TC couldn't think of anything more original though ;)

TRWTF is that they didn't use Cardfile which is easier than Excel, more proven, and has source code available.

Since it appears that the customer is expected to edit configuration information in their application, I don't really see a huge problem with using Excel here. Most office workers are familiar with Excel and Word.

Many people know Access, but not quite as many as those that know Excel and Word. Even less know how to navigate a real database system.

Other options for customer editable config information include:

1. the registry, in which a user could really screw with the OS
2. a proprietary config file format, in which a user could really screw up the custom parser
3. XML, in which a user could easily forget to close a tag or something similia (although XML validators are common in most language distributions)

The only true WTF from the application in the article is the lack validation before injecting a user input string into an SQL statement. I'll even give them a pass on any SQL injection arguments since the config file isn't web facing.

Oh, and Gabe is an idiot.

Excel's VBA uses VB6 instead of VB.NET.

mjk340:

Since it appears that the customer is expected to edit configuration information in their application, I don't really see a huge problem with using Excel here. Most office workers are familiar with Excel and Word.

Many people know Access, but not quite as many as those that know Excel and Word. Even less know how to navigate a real database system.

Other options for customer editable config information include:

1. the registry, in which a user could really screw with the OS
2. a proprietary config file format, in which a user could really screw up the custom parser
3. XML, in which a user could easily forget to close a tag or something similia (although XML validators are common in most language distributions)

The only true WTF from the application in the article is the lack validation before injecting a user input string into an SQL statement. I'll even give them a pass on any SQL injection arguments since the config file isn't web facing.

Oh, and Gabe is an idiot.

Or... you know, number 4:
Make a settings dialog? Like normal apps?

TopCod3r:

Hi everyone. I have been gone a while because I have been in training, and what I was in training for would be perfect to solve this problem: Filemaker Pro.

There really isn't a problem that Filemaker can't solve better than Visual Basic OR any of the Office products that Microsoft has written.

In fact I am in the process of converting our main business application to use Filemaker Pro right now, based on my recommendation after coming back from training.

I just put all of our config information into Filemaker. Problem solved.

I've missed you so much. The site isn't the same without you.

Captha: consequat - one of the lesser known citrus?

silent d:

Wretch:

TopCod3r:

Hi everyone. I have been gone a while because I have been in training, and what I was in training for would be perfect to solve this problem: Filemaker Pro.

There really isn't a problem that Filemaker can't solve better than Visual Basic OR any of the Office products that Microsoft has written.

In fact I am in the process of converting our main business application to use Filemaker Pro right now, based on my recommendation after coming back from training.

I just put all of our config information into Filemaker. Problem solved.

I agree. The real WTF is why anyone uses anything other than Filemaker for anything. It's the greatest.

Of course Filemaker Pro is great for the front end, but I would think you'd want something really robust like Access as the back end.

What about Filmmaker Pro?

mjk340:

Since it appears that the customer is expected to edit configuration information in their application, I don't really see a huge problem with using Excel here. Most office workers are familiar with Excel and Word.

Many people know Access, but not quite as many as those that know Excel and Word. Even less know how to navigate a real database system.

Other options for customer editable config information include:

1. the registry, in which a user could really screw with the OS
2. a proprietary config file format, in which a user could really screw up the custom parser
3. XML, in which a user could easily forget to close a tag or something similia (although XML validators are common in most language distributions)

The only true WTF from the application in the article is the lack validation before injecting a user input string into an SQL statement. I'll even give them a pass on any SQL injection arguments since the config file isn't web facing.

Oh, and Gabe is an idiot.

You're forgetting one other MAJOR alternative: Include a GUI in your application to let users alter configuration information. It's a standard part of any app, even web apps.

Tom JP:

mjk340:

Since it appears that the customer is expected to edit configuration information in their application, I don't really see a huge problem with using Excel here. Most office workers are familiar with Excel and Word.

Many people know Access, but not quite as many as those that know Excel and Word. Even less know how to navigate a real database system.

Other options for customer editable config information include:

1. the registry, in which a user could really screw with the OS
2. a proprietary config file format, in which a user could really screw up the custom parser
3. XML, in which a user could easily forget to close a tag or something similia (although XML validators are common in most language distributions)

The only true WTF from the application in the article is the lack validation before injecting a user input string into an SQL statement. I'll even give them a pass on any SQL injection arguments since the config file isn't web facing.

Oh, and Gabe is an idiot.

Or... you know, number 4:
Make a settings dialog? Like normal apps?

Yeah, I was going to suggest this exact thing. Settings dialogs in .NET take like 10 seconds to create :)

SomeCoder:

Yeah, I was going to suggest this exact thing. Settings dialogs in .NET take like 10 seconds to create :)

And to make them dynamic and editable, you can put the dialog's controls into an Excel spreadsheet...

Tom JP:

mjk340:

Since it appears that the customer is expected to edit configuration information in their application, I don't really see a huge problem with using Excel here. Most office workers are familiar with Excel and Word.

Many people know Access, but not quite as many as those that know Excel and Word. Even less know how to navigate a real database system.

Other options for customer editable config information include:

1. the registry, in which a user could really screw with the OS
2. a proprietary config file format, in which a user could really screw up the custom parser
3. XML, in which a user could easily forget to close a tag or something similia (although XML validators are common in most language distributions)

The only true WTF from the application in the article is the lack validation before injecting a user input string into an SQL statement. I'll even give them a pass on any SQL injection arguments since the config file isn't web facing.

Oh, and Gabe is an idiot.

Or... you know, number 4:
Make a settings dialog? Like normal apps?

That'd waste so much dev time, it's not worth it. Just tell them which code file to edit. If they can edit a text file they can edit code.

kennytm:

silent d:

Wretch:

TopCod3r:

Hi everyone. I have been gone a while because I have been in training, and what I was in training for would be perfect to solve this problem: Filemaker Pro.

There really isn't a problem that Filemaker can't solve better than Visual Basic OR any of the Office products that Microsoft has written.

In fact I am in the process of converting our main business application to use Filemaker Pro right now, based on my recommendation after coming back from training.

I just put all of our config information into Filemaker. Problem solved.

I agree. The real WTF is why anyone uses anything other than Filemaker for anything. It's the greatest.

Of course Filemaker Pro is great for the front end, but I would think you'd want something really robust like Access as the back end.

What about Filmmaker Pro?

Isn't Filemaker Pro redundant???

JD:

I'm suprised that TC couldn't think of anything more original though ;)

Sorry JD, I really didn't read any of the comments before I posted. Didn't mean to step on your toes ;)

kennytm:

Excel's VBA uses VB6 instead of VB.NET.

Yes, but the actual application was written in VB.NET, not the macros. Though why anyone would want to use VB.anything is a mystery to me. A text file and a shell script are a much more sensible solution for config files.

JD:

Anonymous:

JD:

...Multiplan for DOS...

TopCod3r:

...Filemaker...

Interesting - a "cross troll". What are the odds?

Excuse me, but not trolling over here. Just exercising my sense of humour in a way that cannot possibly be taken seriously...

Didn't you learn anything from the article? PHBs don't understand sarcasm!

Seriously, FileMaker gives me nightmares. Among the more fun things I've seen:
- An invoice system in a single table, meaning several rows per product (for that product's name, price, quantity this customer purchased...) I was called to help them fit it onto a single page.
- A table which worked fine in FileMaker, but when queried via its SQL bridge, caused some script to go into an infinite loop. I say "some script" as an educated guess, because all other databases (or tables) worked just fine with a simple query.
- The scripting engine, of course -- point and click, entirely. Ok, I get it -- easy to use. Also a royal pain compared to just typing in _any_ text-based language.
- The above and more, as mission-critical apps, that some semi-experienced users know how to tweak and script. If you think programmer cruft over the years is bad...
- Proprietary, of course. The only fix for the above problems is, get them to export an XML file for you, open it with a text editor to make it valid, and import it into a brand-new, professionally-developed app.

But hey, at least it's better than Excel.

Elegant. He keeps using that word... I do not think it means what he thinks it means.

I've used filemaker pro on smaller projects for years. I've got a filemaker installation that's been running for 12 years and has never in all that time either crashed or gone wrong. It's noddy, but hell is it robust!

You see it's not the tool that's the problem, like excel in this WTF, excel is great. It's the application that the tool is used for that's the problem.

Your father's Microsoft Word. This is the weapon of a true programmer. Not as clumsy or random as Excel. An elegant solution, for a more civilized age.

There were three distinct ways to read values from the configuration file, but only two seemed to work.

The third was File Not Found?

Anonymouse:

Your father's Microsoft Word. This is the weapon of a true programmer. Not as clumsy or random as Excel. An elegant solution, for a more civilized age.

Why not notepad.exe? Just layout the data in key=value format, one entry per line. Ignore blank lines and extraneous whitespace characters.
Each group (stanza) can have a header surrounded by square brackets.
Then, you just save the (text) file as .ini

Your application can read this text file and parse all the values; which can be easily edited by a human being with only (128) ASCII characters to worry about!

snoofle:

TRWTF is Gabe.

Um, to quote myself when I was about 13, "No shit, Shirlock"

campkev:

snoofle:

TRWTF is Gabe.

Um, to quote myself when I was about 13, "No shit, Shirlock"

And your spelling has not improved since age 13, eh?

ParkinT:

campkev:

snoofle:

TRWTF is Gabe.

Um, to quote myself when I was about 13, "No shit, Shirlock"

And your spelling has not improved since age 13, eh?

No, you just missed the double insult of spelling Sherlock like Shirley, thereby calling him a girl as well. Yeah, that's it. That's the ticket.

I was just thinking about how great it would be if TopCod3r came back. And what do you know, he did!

mjk340:

I'll even give them a pass on any SQL injection arguments since the config file isn't web facing.

I'm not so forgiving. Input is evil and should be treated with prejudice. It doesn't have to be intentionally malicious to be harmful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor .

We thought of this idea where I work... What we would do is create a database table for user settings, and the application would read those settings from the database. Now here is the novel part: we actually created a UI using standard, out of the box ASP.NET controls, and this UI would actually allow users to change the application settings from their own workstations!

We've already filed the patent application, so don't even try stealing it.

I know someone who would say all those great things about FileMaker Pro and mean them.

ParkinT:

Anonymouse:

Your father's Microsoft Word. This is the weapon of a true programmer. Not as clumsy or random as Excel. An elegant solution, for a more civilized age.

I lol'd!

Why not notepad.exe? Just layout the data in key=value format, one entry per line. Ignore blank lines and extraneous whitespace characters.
Each group (stanza) can have a header surrounded by square brackets.
Then, you just save the (text) file as .ini

Your application can read this text file and parse all the values; which can be easily edited by a human being with only (128) ASCII characters to worry about!

The return of Mr Facepalm

Swooooosh! *ducks*
Spaceball One!

I always die a little inside upon reading a Featured Article. This time, I died a lot. Well done!

ParkinT:

Anonymouse:

Your father's Microsoft Word. This is the weapon of a true programmer. Not as clumsy or random as Excel. An elegant solution, for a more civilized age.

Why not notepad.exe? Just layout the data in key=value format, one entry per line. Ignore blank lines and extraneous whitespace characters.
Each group (stanza) can have a header surrounded by square brackets.
Then, you just save the (text) file as .ini

Your application can read this text file and parse all the values; which can be easily edited by a human being with only (128) ASCII characters to worry about!

So basically you're referring to the entire /etc directory in Linux.

#

# Port: The port to which the standalone server listens. For

# ports < 1023, you will need apache to be run as root initially.

#

Port 80



#

# If you wish apache to run as a different user or group, you must run

# apacheas root initially and it will switch.  

#

# User/Group: The name (or #number) of the user/group to run apache as.

#  . On SCO (ODT 3) use "User nouser" and "Group nogroup".

#  . On HPUX you may not be able to use shared memory as nobody, and the

#    suggested workaround is to create a user www and use that user.

#  NOTE that some kernels refuse to setgid(Group) or semctl(IPC_SET)

#  when the value of (unsigned)Group is above 60000; 

#  don't use Group nobody on these systems!

#

User www-data

Group www-data

TopCod3r:

Hi everyone. I have been gone a while because I have been in training, and what I was in training for would be perfect to solve this problem: Filemaker Pro.

There really isn't a problem that Filemaker can't solve better than Visual Basic OR any of the Office products that Microsoft has written.

In fact I am in the process of converting our main business application to use Filemaker Pro right now, based on my recommendation after coming back from training.

I just put all of our config information into Filemaker. Problem solved.

*sigh*

Would the *real* Top Cod3r PLEASE stand up?

ShatteredArm:

We thought of this idea where I work... What we would do is create a database table for user settings, and the application would read those settings from the database. Now here is the novel part: we actually created a UI using standard, out of the box ASP.NET controls, and this UI would actually allow users to change the application settings from their own workstations!

We've already filed the patent application, so don't even try stealing it.

Son? Is that you?

kennytm:

What about Filmmaker Pro?

No, because you're not allowed to edit video.
But you can perform random playback. with SSDS. I like to video in a configuration.
To ExCell. Just press XXX. And Jam It!

Bizzle:

I was just thinking about how great it would be if TopCod3r came back. And what do you know, he did!

Now I'm thinking about a nice turkey sandwich.
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