The Shoe-In

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  • joe 2009-11-03 09:05
    This should be all about a "shoo-in" not a "shoe-in" - unless there was some kind of pun that I missed?
  • DOA 2009-11-03 09:05
    "I tweaked your resumé a bit to make it look a little more professional"

    How to tell you've been to TDWTF before: You guessed the entire article from this sentence.
  • Qualified 2009-11-03 09:05
    Sounds like my first interview!
  • galgorah 2009-11-03 09:08
    DOA:
    "I tweaked your resumé a bit to make it look a little more professional"

    How to tell you've been to TDWTF before: You guessed the entire article from this sentence.
    When a recruiter tells you they tweaked your resume, Warning flags should go off.
  • Jan 2009-11-03 09:08
    After I read this:
    I tweaked your resumé a bit to make it look a little more professional


    I knew I was in for some never before seen story that would blow my mind of
  • Kelly 2009-11-03 09:15
    This is why recruiters should go to hell.
  • Drew 2009-11-03 09:16
    The correct response to "I tweaked your resumé a bit to make it look a little more professional" would be "Great! Could you send me a copy?"

  • RogerWilco 2009-11-03 09:19
    Gah!

    Recruiters. Never again. I sometimes think they get money for any warm body they manage to get to the point of an interview.

    Next time I'm looking for a job, I'll turn down any call from one of them, I have nothing but bad experience. Fortunately I'm happily employed right now, doing a job I love at one of the coolest places I know. no WTFs here, unlike my previous jobs. I hope to stick around for a while. :-)
  • DemonWasp 2009-11-03 09:22
    I believe "shoe-in" refers to "shoe-in-the-door", perhaps more commonly stated as "having a foot in the door".

    Then again, the main article decided to spell it "recuriter", so it could just be further silliness.
  • amischiefr 2009-11-03 09:22
    Jan:
    After I read this:
    I tweaked your resumé a bit to make it look a little more professional


    I knew I was in for some never before seen story that would blow my mind of

    I think you something.
  • John 2009-11-03 09:22
    CV available only as PDF...
    With URL to "original" on board...
  • Andy 2009-11-03 09:23
    I've had the same thing happen although not to this extent. It was the adding of years to my experience...
    At 27 There is only 6 years I could have (after university) so how the hell I ended up with 11+ years I don't know.
  • AH 2009-11-03 09:26
    Sounds like a case of libel to me. Make up your train ticket that way.
  • Michael 2009-11-03 09:26
    RogerWilco:
    Recruiters. Never again. I sometimes think they get money for any warm body they manage to get to the point of an interview.

    Actually I know one shop where the recruiters are judged on how many CVs they add to the DB. I must have been added/updated at least five times already.
  • Michael 2009-11-03 09:30
    Those agents are incompetent to the max. Best term in a recruiter's job spec I have seen was "required experience with the Linux Colonel".
    And those guys take the liberty to decide whether I'm fit for a job or not. I have come to the point where I tell the agents off that I can't work with them if I think they don't have a clue. There are enough of them anyway.
  • jordanwb 2009-11-03 09:30
    galgorah:
    DOA:
    "I tweaked your resumé a bit to make it look a little more professional"

    How to tell you've been to TDWTF before: You guessed the entire article from this sentence.
    When a recruiter tells you they tweaked your resume, Warning flags should go off.


    That's why I send my resumes in PDF format. Although I don't know if it's possible to edit them.
  • markm 2009-11-03 09:34
    No pun - just a common error.
  • Adriano 2009-11-03 09:37
    Andy:
    ... At 27 There is only 6 years I could have (after university) so how the hell I ended up with 11+ years I don't know.


    Some people do work on internships and the like while in college, or in highschool. How would we find stuff like 'return ofTheJedi' otherwise?
  • me too 2009-11-03 09:40
    I find if I send my CV in in PDF I get requests to send it in in word format.

    I once sent in a CV in ODF. Didn't work, they had no idea how to open it. Nevermind. I expected as much, just hoped that the version of word they had supported ODF.
  • DOA 2009-11-03 09:47
    Michael:
    Those agents are incompetent to the max. Best term in a recruiter's job spec I have seen was "required experience with the Linux Colonel".
    You mean they didn't pad it to "Linux General"?
  • SR 2009-11-03 09:54
    DemonWasp:
    I believe "shoe-in" refers to "shoe-in-the-door", perhaps more commonly stated as "having a foot in the door".

    Then again, the main article decided to spell it "recuriter", so it could just be further silliness.


    Nope. It's definitely "shoo in" - as in a dead cert. Having a shoe/foot in the door is completely different.
  • Matt J 2009-11-03 09:54
    I very much doubt that the recruiter tweaked his resumé. He probably tweaked his CV, this being set in Britain and all.
  • JohnB 2009-11-03 09:56
    To all those who send in a PDF resume ... why?

    It takes 5 minutes to retype the stuff the recruiter wants to keep and 10 minutes to type in the stuff the recruiter was going to "tweak" anyway.

    I've dealt with a bunch of recruiters and have had positive and negative experiences (in fairness: the negative significantly outweighed the positive) but sometimes there's an ad for a position that looks genuinely interesting and there's no choice but to go through the recruiter.

    How appropriate! My captcha is "odio" -- two letters short of odious.
  • Boneist 2009-11-03 09:56
    DemonWasp:
    I believe "shoe-in" refers to "shoe-in-the-door", perhaps more commonly stated as "having a foot in the door".

    It should be "shoo-in", which m-w.com has as "one that is a certain and easy winner"

    </pedant>
  • James 2009-11-03 10:02
    Nice that he thought to take along a copy of the job description in his manilla envelope, even if he hadn't read it. Perhaps it was too hideously formatted and hideous to read.

    There again this sounds about par for the course. The number of times I've had to explain to a recruiter that no, just because it says "javascript" on my CV you cannot put me down as a Java developer with ten years' experience...
  • Anonymous 2009-11-03 10:03
    Oh wow, the incessant pain of recruitment agencies - that sure takes me back. They change your CV, they put you forward for jobs you're not qualified for, they contact you about jobs you're not even interested in... then, after you've found a job without them, they continue to bug you for years after you've removed your name from their books (literally years, I can vouch). Worst of all, they have minimal technical knowledge and generally don't know a single thing about the jobs they put people up for. Thank God that's all in the past. I wouldn't even consider using an agency these days.

    [Post #3]
  • James 2009-11-03 10:04
    Any time I've submitted a CV as PDF to a recruiter it's been sent back with an angry note that I should submit something "compatible with Microsoft Word" because "not every client is using a MAC."
  • Kef Schecter 2009-11-03 10:06
    DemonWasp:
    I believe "shoe-in" refers to "shoe-in-the-door", perhaps more commonly stated as "having a foot in the door".


    It's "shoo-in". Shoe-in is an eggcorn: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/47/shoe/
  • squaregoldfish 2009-11-03 10:06
    There's only one way to solve this: FIGHT!

    http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22shoe+in%22&word2=%22shoo+in%22
  • Swa 2009-11-03 10:11
    I've actually worked with recruiters, managing the local infrastructure (network, servers, etc). All in all, they're not bad people, just very odd, badly adjusted and usually professional liars. As far as I can tell, the firm I worked with didn't pad resumes like that, but they did their fair share of sugarcoating.

    However, the headhunters and IDers were the real pathologic liars. If I hear another phrase like "I'm calling from the ministry of ***", "I'm calling from the university of ***" and "I'm calling from the european commission and I'm looking for people in the position of ***, because we are hosting a seminar about *** and we'd like to invite them", my head is going to explode. With the results, they'd compile lists of people they could hunt away from their position to another job.
    My advice to you my friends: always make them send you an email from their domain they supposedly work for before answering any questions (hunters will always make up lame excuses why they can't). Unless you want to get rid of the colleague(s) in question, of course. Just never give them the names of good colleagues that you depend on. :)
  • @Deprecated 2009-11-03 10:13
    JohnB:
    To all those who send in a PDF resume ... why?

    It takes 5 minutes to retype the stuff the recruiter wants to keep and 10 minutes to type in the stuff the recruiter was going to "tweak" anyway.

    I've dealt with a bunch of recruiters and have had positive and negative experiences (in fairness: the negative significantly outweighed the positive) but sometimes there's an ad for a position that looks genuinely interesting and there's no choice but to go through the recruiter.

    How appropriate! My captcha is "odio" -- two letters short of odious.


    Well, when I am sending a resume directly to a company, I would prefer the recipient not see red/green squigglies all over it...
    But yeah, Reader has that neat 'text selection' tool.
  • pjt33 2009-11-03 10:13
    jordanwb:
    That's why I send my resumes in PDF format. Although I don't know if it's possible to edit them.

    It is, but it requires the ability to use software other than Outlook, IE, or Word, so no recruiter is capable of it.

    A handy tip I picked up for when recruiters ask for a Word doc and you don't have Word is to write your CV in HTML and then save it with a .doc extension.
  • haxor elitist fanclub 2009-11-03 10:14
    I was just


    function isComment(String $val){
    if (eval($val)!=isTrueOrNotVeryNull(eval($val))||preg_match("//",$val)>=1 && idexof("//", $val)==0) {
    return true;
    }
    return false;
    }

  • dkf 2009-11-03 10:17
    Swa:
    My advice to you my friends: always make them send you an email from their domain they supposedly work for before answering any questions (hunters will always make up lame excuses why they can't). Unless you want to get rid of the colleague(s) in question, of course. Just never give them the names of good colleagues that you depend on. :)
    Giving them the name of the office deadbeat is a good idea. After all, they'll get a good reference because even HR will be thoroughly glad to get rid of them...
  • VRAndy 2009-11-03 10:17
    Wow. Jon Kipper keeps his resumes in Mark Bowytz's manila envelope?

    What a weird arrangement.
  • bw 2009-11-03 10:17
    I got both my "real" out of college jobs through recruiters. Neither changed my resume. One typed a cover letter for me. Both were super nice and helpful and dealt with pay negotiation for me.

    Maybe most recruiters are bad, but I am 2/2. All the places I interviewed in my most recent job hunt that did not use recruiters could not afford me, so maybe the filtering there helps as well.
  • Anonymous 2009-11-03 10:28
    jordanwb:
    That's why I send my resumes in PDF format. Although I don't know if it's possible to edit them.
    Of course you can edit them, what do you think Adobe Acrobat is for? But still, the vast majority of recruiters won't have this around and even if they do they probably won't know how to use it. If it's not Word they can't figure it out.
  • morry 2009-11-03 10:50
    So'd you go back in for a second interview? I would have gone in just for sh*ts and giggles.
  • EatenByAGrue 2009-11-03 10:53
    bw:

    Maybe most recruiters are bad, but I am 2/2.


    Basically, the personality type for a recruiter is a sociable sociopath. They will seem perfectly nice and friendly, but would quite happily feed their mother to the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal if they would earn $5 for doing so.
  • SR 2009-11-03 10:53
    squaregoldfish:
    There's only one way to solve this: FIGHT!

    http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22shoe+in%22&word2=%22shoo+in%22


    I don't care, it's still a "shoo in". There are more hits because it can appear in other sentences e.g. "I'd like to put my shoe in the ass of these recruiters that insist on changing my bloody CV!"
  • Keith 2009-11-03 10:55
    I thought maybe it was a pun, like "shoehorn in" - get it?

    But no, the author is just mildly illiterate.
  • hikari 2009-11-03 10:56
    James:
    Any time I've submitted a CV as PDF to a recruiter it's been sent back with an angry note that I should submit something "compatible with Microsoft Word" because "not every client is using a MAC."


    I think if an agency or potential employer becomes confused by a PDF, it's a fairly good sign that you should run away now.
  • JohnB 2009-11-03 11:00
    @Deprecated:


    Well, when I am sending a resume directly to a company, I would prefer the recipient not see red/green squigglies all over it...
    But yeah, Reader has that neat 'text selection' tool.
    Tools > Options > Spelling&Grammar tab
    Check the box labelled "Hide spelling errors in this document"
    Check the box labelled "Hide grammatical errors in this document"
  • Bluffer McCoy 2009-11-03 11:02
    galgorah:
    DOA:
    "I tweaked your resumé a bit to make it look a little more professional"

    How to tell you've been to TDWTF before: You guessed the entire article from this sentence.
    When a recruiter tells you they tweaked your resume, Warning flags should go off.


    I had a recruiter "tweak" my resume somewhat before an interview once, and when I got an updated job-spec the day before the interview, phoned up the interviewer and told him the recruiter has sexed things up somewhat, and I didn't have <list of skills specific to them>. After a bit of "so you just don't want the interview?" and "Not that, I just don't want to waste your time" I was asked in and got the job anyway. Take that, recruiters! No, wait.
  • bored 2009-11-03 11:04
    I have mixed feelings regarding recruiters. Good experiences and bad experiences with them. The worst was when I got placed in a job after a 6month contract position and updated my resume on a certain career board, they saw it was updated and immediately called my employer to find out if they could fill the position I was still in! Talk about embarrassing!
  • Bluffer McCoy 2009-11-03 11:06
    AH:
    Sounds like a case of libel to me. Make up your train ticket that way.


    If anything, it's the exact opposite of libel.
  • Anonymously Yours 2009-11-03 11:11
    I'm pretty sure this story was posted here once before.

    bw:
    I got both my "real" out of college jobs through recruiters. Neither changed my resume. One typed a cover letter for me. Both were super nice and helpful and dealt with pay negotiation for me.

    Maybe most recruiters are bad, but I am 2/2. All the places I interviewed in my most recent job hunt that did not use recruiters could not afford me, so maybe the filtering there helps as well.
    STOP HOGGING BOTH OF THE GOOD RECRUITERS!!11one!
  • monkeyPushButton 2009-11-03 11:12
    SR:
    squaregoldfish:
    There's only one way to solve this: FIGHT!

    http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22shoe+in%22&word2=%22shoo+in%22
    I don't care, it's still a "shoo in". There are more hits because it can appear in other sentences e.g. "I'd like to put my shoe in the ass of these recruiters that insist on changing my bloody CV!"
    But when I went to Google Fight, shoe in got 146000 and shoo in got 44000 yet shoo in had a block 4x as high and was listed as the winner.

    Maybe they weight it for pedantic-ness?

    Or it's TRWTF.
  • Anonymous 2009-11-03 11:14
    JohnB:
    @Deprecated:

    Well, when I am sending a resume directly to a company, I would prefer the recipient not see red/green squigglies all over it...
    But yeah, Reader has that neat 'text selection' tool.
    Tools > Options > Spelling&Grammar tab
    Check the box labelled "Hide spelling errors in this document"
    Check the box labelled "Hide grammatical errors in this document"
    And how exactly are you going to do this on their copy of Adobe Reader?
  • cdosrun 2009-11-03 11:16
    Sometimes, the extra job requirements HR adds to the job description cancels out the padding the recruiter adds to the resume, and you end up with a good fit.

    It's only when an unpadded resume meets a padded job description, or a padded resume meets an unpadded job description, that you have these problems.

    I owe my current position to recruiters like this. I used to only apply for jobs that I thought I met the minimal requirements for. Now I ignore the job description and hash things out in the first technical interview, hopefully over the phone.

    When HR refuses to post the salary of a position, and jobs that are actually part time repair guy at a local computer store and chief network architect for a mid-sized company can have about the same job description once HR is done with it... Technical Interviews seem to be the only way of figuring out what the job actually *is*.
  • Aaron 2009-11-03 11:18
    I only wish that Mark hadn't padded the story as much as the recruiter padded the CV.

    We need to bring back the twitter versions.
  • Mike D 2009-11-03 11:19
    Anonymous:
    JohnB:
    @Deprecated:

    Well, when I am sending a resume directly to a company, I would prefer the recipient not see red/green squigglies all over it...
    But yeah, Reader has that neat 'text selection' tool.
    Tools > Options > Spelling&Grammar tab
    Check the box labelled "Hide spelling errors in this document"
    Check the box labelled "Hide grammatical errors in this document"
    And how exactly are you going to do this on their copy of Adobe Reader?
    Javascript exploit? There are several to choose from!

    #3
  • SCB 2009-11-03 11:20
    JohnB:
    @Deprecated:


    Well, when I am sending a resume directly to a company, I would prefer the recipient not see red/green squigglies all over it...
    But yeah, Reader has that neat 'text selection' tool.
    Tools > Options > Spelling&Grammar tab
    Check the box labelled "Hide spelling errors in this document"
    Check the box labelled "Hide grammatical errors in this document"

    Yes, but where is the option for "Hide factual errors in this document"?
  • dubbreak 2009-11-03 11:22
    Bluffer McCoy:
    AH:
    Sounds like a case of libel to me. Make up your train ticket that way.


    If anything, it's the exact opposite of libel.

    Bluffer McCoy:
    AH:
    Sounds like a case of libel to me. Make up your train ticket that way.


    If anything, it's the exact opposite of libel.

    I'd say putting exaggerations, even if the intent is to make them look good, results in the definition of libel. The changes to the resume are printed words that are untrue end up damagingly misrepresenting the person in question. That is the definition of libel.

    Yes, generally the words are defamatory or malicious, however the key point in common law (from my understanding) is that what is said is untrue (misrepresents the person) and causes damage. In this case damage isn't limited to real damages (money, property) but also intangibles such as reputation.
  • joe 2009-11-03 11:27
    dubbreak:
    Bluffer McCoy:
    AH:
    Sounds like a case of libel to me. Make up your train ticket that way.


    If anything, it's the exact opposite of libel.

    Bluffer McCoy:
    AH:
    Sounds like a case of libel to me. Make up your train ticket that way.


    If anything, it's the exact opposite of libel.

    I'd say putting exaggerations, even if the intent is to make them look good, results in the definition of libel. The changes to the resume are printed words that are untrue end up damagingly misrepresenting the person in question. That is the definition of libel.

    Yes, generally the words are defamatory or malicious, however the key point in common law (from my understanding) is that what is said is untrue (misrepresents the person) and causes damage. In this case damage isn't limited to real damages (money, property) but also intangibles such as reputation.


    I think he was referring to it being slander as opposed to libel.
  • Bluffer McCoy 2009-11-03 11:31
    dubbreak:
    Bluffer McCoy:
    AH:
    Sounds like a case of libel to me. Make up your train ticket that way.


    If anything, it's the exact opposite of libel.

    Bluffer McCoy:
    AH:
    Sounds like a case of libel to me. Make up your train ticket that way.


    If anything, it's the exact opposite of libel.

    I'd say putting exaggerations, even if the intent is to make them look good, results in the definition of libel. The changes to the resume are printed words that are untrue end up damagingly misrepresenting the person in question. That is the definition of libel.

    Yes, generally the words are defamatory or malicious, however the key point in common law (from my understanding) is that what is said is untrue (misrepresents the person) and causes damage. In this case damage isn't limited to real damages (money, property) but also intangibles such as reputation.


    Nope. English Law explicitly states that the words must be defamatory. They must "cause a reasonable person to think worse of [the supposedly-libelled]". Also, an offer of rectification bars litigation, so all the recruiter has to say is "sorry, I was mistaken". Depending on whether one sues for compensatory or punitive damages, malicious intent must also be proven.
  • Bluffer McCoy 2009-11-03 11:32
    joe:

    I think he was referring to it being slander as opposed to libel.


    I wasn't. It would be libel, if it were defamatory, not slander. Rule of thumb: slander is spoken.

  • Bim Job 2009-11-03 11:34
    Bluffer McCoy:
    AH:
    Sounds like a case of libel to me. Make up your train ticket that way.


    If anything, it's the exact opposite of libel.
    Strangely, in the UK, I think there's a very good chance indeed of proving libel here. I mean, Lotus Notes and a Domino server? Don't tell me that's not a damaging misrepresentation...

    See In the UK, if someone thinks that what you wrote about them is either defamatory or damaging, the onus will be entirely on you to prove that your comments are true in court. In other words, if you make the claim, you've got to prove it!

    I would truly love to see someone take a UK recruitment "consultant" to court on this basis. I'm almost inspired to do it myself.

    And before any of you innocent Yanks start yelling "That's just stupid!" ... Well, yes it is. But we have a Judge Eady here who is (to avoid any connotation of libel) possibly the most well-read and intelligent person ever called to the Bar. (O Lord, I hope he was called to the Bar at some point.)

    For further chuckles at the expense of the UK Libel system, please see Simon Singh. I say chuckles. It isn't really very funny.
  • Bluffer McCoy 2009-11-03 11:37
    Bim Job:
    Bluffer McCoy:
    AH:
    Sounds like a case of libel to me. Make up your train ticket that way.


    If anything, it's the exact opposite of libel.
    Strangely, in the UK, I think there's a very good chance indeed of proving libel here. I mean, Lotus Notes and a Domino server? Don't tell me that's not a damaging misrepresentation...


    In the context of that exact "skill" being in demand for the job? Well, the person to whom the misrepresentation was made most certainly wouldn't think less of someone having the skills he requires, so, no, not libel.

  • JohnB 2009-11-03 11:41
    Anonymous:
    JohnB:
    @Deprecated:

    Well, when I am sending a resume directly to a company, I would prefer the recipient not see red/green squigglies all over it...
    But yeah, Reader has that neat 'text selection' tool.
    Tools > Options > Spelling&Grammar tab
    Check the box labelled "Hide spelling errors in this document"
    Check the box labelled "Hide grammatical errors in this document"
    And how exactly are you going to do this on their copy of Adobe Reader?
    It's got nothing to do with their copy of Adobe Reader ... "when I am sending a resume directly ..." so I showed how to hide the squiggles for that file and when the receipient opens that file then the recipient won't see Word's squiggles (surely Acrobat doesn't use squiggles?).
  • anon 2009-11-03 11:45
    I've been made redundant twice and have only dealt with two "recruitment consultants" who had scruples and knew what they were doing.

    One got me a job, one got me to a third interview before suits higher up in the employing firm decided they no longer had the budget. I got my current job at the height of the recession directly with the employer. I'm still removing myself from job websites I've been added to by agencies without authority.

    As well as being woefully ignorant of IT terminology, their geography is frequently exceedingly dodgy. I'm a MS developer in southeast England - "would a Unix job in Aberdeen be commutable?"

    They really are worthless on the whole.
  • bob 2009-11-03 11:55
    IT recruiters should be killed.

    All of them.

    Ideally by me. But I'm easy on that.

    As long as I get to watch.
  • Sindri 2009-11-03 12:03
    I do a fair bit of interviewing developers in London, some coming through agents. My first question is always: "Is this your CV?", showing them the copy I have. For exactly this reason.
  • tsrblke 2009-11-03 12:17
    This article seems to conflate recruiters and headhunters. In my experience, recruiters tend to work closely with or even for the company in question, while headhunters just tend to spam resume's at companies hoping for a hit and a comission or even a fee from the prospective employee (depending on how initial contact was made).
    I blame websites like Monster.com, they've made it far to easy for "Professional Recruiters" (who are really headhunters) to get peoples resume's and promise them the world. What you get is effectively a bad marketer, they'll "tweak" your resume with horrible formats, or even "embellishments" and cause more problems than they solve.
    I remember when my dad was going back into banking after several years out where we owned and ran various small companies. Prior to leaving banking (for the opportunities he had for those interviening years) he had 15-20 years experience. But since it had been about 10 years or so he decided to use a "recruiter" that had found him on Monster. Lots of money later, he still had no job (he still had the one company so things were't dire.) Eventually of course it came down to what it always comes down to, he called a friend, who knew of a upstart bank in need of someone with lots of experience, and got the job. Headhunters are a waste of oxygen and DNA.
  • Jay 2009-11-03 12:19
    jordanwb:
    That's why I send my resumes in PDF format. Although I don't know if it's possible to edit them.


    Of course they can edit a PDF file. All they have to do is print it out, put it on a wooden table, take a digital photograph, scan it in, OCR it, and then open it in MS Word.

    I'm surprised no one has pointed this out yet.
  • WW 2009-11-03 12:21
    My husband does this.

    When he was looking for a job, he got emails about this.

    For the better part of a year, the jobs that recruiters called about in anything like his actual field were the positions that the people he supervises supervise. As near as I can tell, the only job recruiters actually understand anything at all about the requirements or performance of is their own -- and even then, it's pretty dodgy.

    Oh, and it's shoo-in. Always has been. Eggcorn-on-the-cob anyone?
  • Murdog 2009-11-03 12:27
    bored:
    I have mixed feelings regarding recruiters. Good experiences and bad experiences with them. The worst was when I got placed in a job after a 6month contract position and updated my resume on a certain career board, they saw it was updated and immediately called my employer to find out if they could fill the position I was still in! Talk about embarrassing!


    I was in a job for about 5 years, and I had my resume posted, and a recruiter e-mailed me to ask if I was interested in working at the place I was already working. He said it was a 6 month contract, and the real kicker, daily rate was double what I was making as a lead developer there! Go figure!

    Btw, is it bad that I didn't notice anything wrong with Shoe-in as opposed to Shoo-in? I am a programmer not a english well speaker guy...
  • Bim Job 2009-11-03 12:28
    Bluffer McCoy:
    Bim Job:
    Bluffer McCoy:
    AH:
    Sounds like a case of libel to me. Make up your train ticket that way.


    If anything, it's the exact opposite of libel.
    Strangely, in the UK, I think there's a very good chance indeed of proving libel here. I mean, Lotus Notes and a Domino server? Don't tell me that's not a damaging misrepresentation...


    In the context of that exact "skill" being in demand for the job? Well, the person to whom the misrepresentation was made most certainly wouldn't think less of someone having the skills he requires, so, no, not libel.

    ... certainly wouldn't think less of someone not having the skills he requires, but I know what you mean. (Unless, and this is not entirely unlikely, they also have a position for a SysAdmin with experience in Excel Server.) I'm not certain that Mr Justice Eady would agree, however, and I suggest that Mr Singh's case is germane.

    I am not anal (sorry: IANAL), but it seems to me that British (actually, I assume English, Welsh and NI) libel law is spiralling out of control:

    "At a preliminary hearing last month to decide the meaning of the article, Mr Justice Eady ruled that the wording used by Singh implied that the BCA was being consciously dishonest. Singh has denied that he intended any such meaning."

    What with the original injunction (still in force, I believe), it's difficult to track down what Mr Singh actually said. The best flavour I can find is:

    "The ruling centred on the meaning of the word bogus. In a comment piece for the Guardian, Dr Singh criticised the BCA <British Chiropractic Association> for happily promoting bogus treatments <see original article>. Mr Justice Eady said this implied the association was being consciously dishonest. Dr Singh says he never intended this meaning."

    It seems to me that, in the current state of UK libel law (based on countless precedents, rather than statute), it doesn't matter whether it's an innocent misrepresentation, a malicious misrepresentation, or (as in the Singh case) a misrepresentation that exists only in the mind of a single (wonderfully well-qualified, and admirable in every respect) judge.

    It doesn't matter whether an (alleged) misrepresentation occurs in front of one person, or millions.

    And, on an aside ... in this case, the "polished" version of the CV is out there in the wild. I'm sure it will land on the desk of other potential employers. I wouldn't be surprised if it results in chinese whispers around the rest of the Square Mile.

    Me, I think it's a potential libel suit. Against the recruitment agency. If that's not being "consciously dishonest," and misrepresenting their client in a way that might quite possibly lead to later loss of earnings or the opportunity to earn, then I don't know what is.
  • SR 2009-11-03 12:31
    monkeyPushButton:
    But when I went to Google Fight, shoe in got 146000 and shoo in got 44000 yet shoo in had a block 4x as high and was listed as the winner.

    Maybe they weight it for pedantic-ness?

    Or it's TRWTF.


    No, just that the word "shoe" followed by the word "in" has uses other than incorrectly in place of "shoo in".

    Is it really that difficult or has Google just replaced thinking in your little world?
  • WW 2009-11-03 12:35
    The reason the padded resume can be considered defamatory is that it made the applicant look dishonest to the interviewer. There is no way for the interviewer to tell whether the applicant padded his resume when he gave it to the recruiter, or whether the recruiter did the padding -- and, of course, the recruiter will claim that's how it was when he got it.

    The defamation does not come from presenting him as better-qualified than he is; it comes from presenting him as a liar. The harm comes from the fact that the applicant has probably lost any hope of a job with that company even in a position he is admirably qualified for.
  • Franz Kafka 2009-11-03 12:51
    Bluffer McCoy:

    Nope. English Law explicitly states that the words must be defamatory. They must "cause a reasonable person to think worse of [the supposedly-libelled]". Also, an offer of rectification bars litigation, so all the recruiter has to say is "sorry, I was mistaken". Depending on whether one sues for compensatory or punitive damages, malicious intent must also be proven.


    And what happens when you add nonexistent experience to a resume? The reasonable interviewer thinks you're a schmuck. Bang, defamation. Certainly a reason not to allow reformats.
  • lesle 2009-11-03 12:51
    In the U.S., it's called "Puffery." It's legal.
  • Franz Kafka 2009-11-03 12:53
    anon:

    As well as being woefully ignorant of IT terminology, their geography is frequently exceedingly dodgy. I'm a MS developer in southeast England - "would a Unix job in Aberdeen be commutable?"

    They really are worthless on the whole.


    I work in seattle - I've had a spate of crooters try to get me to interview for jobs in Atlanta.
  • dubbreak 2009-11-03 12:54
    Bluffer McCoy:
    dubbreak:
    Bluffer McCoy:
    AH:
    Sounds like a case of libel to me. Make up your train ticket that way.


    If anything, it's the exact opposite of libel.

    Bluffer McCoy:
    AH:
    Sounds like a case of libel to me. Make up your train ticket that way.


    If anything, it's the exact opposite of libel.

    I'd say putting exaggerations, even if the intent is to make them look good, results in the definition of libel. The changes to the resume are printed words that are untrue end up damagingly misrepresenting the person in question. That is the definition of libel.

    Yes, generally the words are defamatory or malicious, however the key point in common law (from my understanding) is that what is said is untrue (misrepresents the person) and causes damage. In this case damage isn't limited to real damages (money, property) but also intangibles such as reputation.


    Nope. English Law explicitly states that the words must be defamatory. They must "cause a reasonable person to think worse of [the supposedly-libelled]". Also, an offer of rectification bars litigation, so all the recruiter has to say is "sorry, I was mistaken". Depending on whether one sues for compensatory or punitive damages, malicious intent must also be proven.


    So someone thinking I'm a liar doesn't meant they're thinking worse of me?

    From the few cases we went over in business malicious intent wasn't shown, just that the person writing the incorrect statements knew they were untrue. Of course I'm not in jolly old england, and because of precedent setting cases the intent of the law may have been interpreted differently (which affects how it is interpreted from that point forth).

    As for the comment on slander vs libel.. libel is basically written slander (published in some form, which now includes the web). Putting lies or exaggerations in someone's resume is not slander.

  • yeah whateva 2009-11-03 13:00
    Why is resume stuffing so bad, when employers over-inflate their job description and requirements above and beyond what is needed day-to-day? And then offer an insulting hourly rate of $14 or so.
  • IT Girl 2009-11-03 13:08
    Anonymous:
    jordanwb:
    That's why I send my resumes in PDF format. Although I don't know if it's possible to edit them.
    Of course you can edit them, what do you think Adobe Acrobat is for? But still, the vast majority of recruiters won't have this around and even if they do they probably won't know how to use it. If it's not Word they can't figure it out.


    Having dealt directly with a lot of recruiters and HR departments, the reason they ask for Word is that frequently they're looking for text based documents that can be easily fed into a system that sorts by keyword. If you have hundreds of resumes coming at you, it's a quick albeit lazy way of weeding them.
  • Vowyer 2009-11-03 13:13
    That's why you should send only PDF résumés. They surely can't tweak it as easily as a DOC one. I use the outstanding moderncv template for LaTeX. Very nice output.
  • snoofle 2009-11-03 13:16
    Drew:
    The correct response to "I tweaked your resumé a bit to make it look a little more professional" would be "Great! Could you send me a copy BEFORE you send it out?"


    FTFY
  • Neville Flynn 2009-11-03 13:20
    T(Three)RWTFs are that:

    1) The author took the effort to add the accented é (I say "effort" due to English keyboards not normally having é readily available) yet still screwed up - it's supposed to be written résumé, not resumé.

    2) It's shoo-in, not shoe-in. It's frequently spelled as "shoe-in" for the same reason people misuse they're/their and you're/your.

    Example - you can find more by googling "shoe in or shoo in":
    http://www.english-for-students.com/Shoe-In-1.html

    3) TDWTF's comment system is a POS. Submit attempt #10 or so, here goes...
  • Bim Job 2009-11-03 13:32
    IT Girl:
    Anonymous:
    jordanwb:
    That's why I send my resumes in PDF format. Although I don't know if it's possible to edit them.
    Of course you can edit them, what do you think Adobe Acrobat is for? But still, the vast majority of recruiters won't have this around and even if they do they probably won't know how to use it. If it's not Word they can't figure it out.


    Having dealt directly with a lot of recruiters and HR departments, the reason they ask for Word is that frequently they're looking for text based documents that can be easily fed into a system that sorts by keyword. If you have hundreds of resumes coming at you, it's a quick albeit lazy way of weeding them.
    Ya need to get in touch with your inner IT, Girl.

    I once worked in a recruitment consultancy, and I can honestly say that they haven't changed a bit over the last twenty five years. Ten per cent are (slightly) conscientious; eighty per cent make an effort to avoid being total slime-balls; and then there's the other ten per cent.

    All three groups are frighteningly ignorant of what they're selling, however. Just yesterday, I had a reasonably competent one ask me whether I'd kept my QNX -- pronounced cue-en-ex, apparently, which is better than see-cue-ell, or (my favourite) "C-oh-bol") skills "up-to-date" since the last time I wrote a QNX driver (in 1999). There may be a metaphysical answer to this, but it doesn't spring readily to mind.

    Meanwhile, on the question of PDF-to-Word conversions: there are millions of these. Some are appalling, some are reasonable. I can't even be bothered to check this one.

    It's not my job.

    In my personal nightmare, I'm the head of a recruitment company. I need salespeople. No problem! I need at least one person who has ever worked in IT (that's me). No problem! I need HR drudges and accountants and a really friendly bank manager who will bend over backwards for me (I sure hope it's a well-shaved gibbon).

    But, most of all, I want people who can actually use a simple program to translate PDF into Word and then index Da Skillz.

    How hard can that be?

    On second thoughts: why are we still dealing with this worthless system? Screw obvious conversions. I'll take the shaved gibbon.
  • CynicalTyler 2009-11-03 13:32
    Bluffer McCoy:
    Rule of thumb: slander is spoken.
    That's not a rule of thumb, it's a mnemonic.
  • moz 2009-11-03 13:32
    Bim Job:
    Me, I think it's a potential libel suit. Against the recruitment agency. If that's not being "consciously dishonest," and misrepresenting their client in a way that might quite possibly lead to later loss of earnings or the opportunity to earn, then I don't know what is.

    Even if so, the known losses amount to a few hundred pounds at most. The damage to Jon's future prospects is highly speculative, and would probably be ignored.

    Win or lose, Jon would be likely to be be worse off financially for suing, and to have worse job prospects (as employers who know of the case are unlikely to think well of him for bringing it).
  • because 2009-11-03 13:40
    > To all those who send in a PDF resume ... why?

    When the recipient prints a copy of your resume using an editor format such as MS-Word, your formatting is at the mercy of the recipients installed fonts, template setup and available printers.

    PDF is intended to reduce all of those problems.
  • Worf 2009-11-03 13:44
    Perhaps the best thing to do during an interview, immediately after the initial introductions, is to hand out a fresh clean copies of your resume to your interviewers.

    It immediately removes any "markup" done by the recruiter (thus averting disaster later during the interview - nothing's worse than going through the process only to find out you suddenly have skills you didn't know you have. Most employers see that as a negative when they catch you, so a clean copy will help dispell any notion that you lied your way in. Especially since a nice professional looking layout that you've done probably looks way better than the recruiter hastily-done-up version.

    It works for any instance, too (i.e., you applied directly to the company) - maybe an interviewer didn't get your resume but was asked to do an interview, and gives interviewers a clean copy to take notes on.
  • Peter 2009-11-03 14:22
    SR:
    monkeyPushButton:
    But when I went to Google Fight, shoe in got 146000 and shoo in got 44000 yet shoo in had a block 4x as high and was listed as the winner.

    Maybe they weight it for pedantic-ness?

    Or it's TRWTF.
    No, just that the word "shoe" followed by the word "in" has uses other than incorrectly in place of "shoo in".

    Is it really that difficult or has Google just replaced thinking in your little world?
    Okay, you've explained why "shoe in" has more hits than "shoo in". Now explain why "shoo in" is still (correctly) judged the winner. Preferably without resorting to insults that show that you've misunderstood the point being made.
  • swordfishBob 2009-11-03 14:32
    Peter:

    Okay, you've explained why "shoe in" has more hits than "shoo in". Now explain why "shoo in" is still (correctly) judged the winner. Preferably without resorting to insults that show that you've misunderstood the point being made.

    Go shoo the sheep out of the garden, shoo the kids back inside, shoo the flies away from the BBQ, and I'll think about it. Oh, and put your shoes on first.
  • Anon 2009-11-03 14:35
    Andy:
    I've had the same thing happen although not to this extent. It was the adding of years to my experience...
    At 27 There is only 6 years I could have (after university) so how the hell I ended up with 11+ years I don't know.


    I'm 27 and my CV (quite truthfully) states that I have 10 years experience. Then again, when it was 19, it (quite untruthfully) stated that I had 5. Still got all the jobs I went for though.
  • dubbreak 2009-11-03 14:39
    moz:
    Bim Job:
    Me, I think it's a potential libel suit. Against the recruitment agency. If that's not being "consciously dishonest," and misrepresenting their client in a way that might quite possibly lead to later loss of earnings or the opportunity to earn, then I don't know what is.

    Even if so, the known losses amount to a few hundred pounds at most. The damage to Jon's future prospects is highly speculative, and would probably be ignored.

    Win or lose, Jon would be likely to be be worse off financially for suing, and to have worse job prospects (as employers who know of the case are unlikely to think well of him for bringing it).


    Can't you sue for filing fees as well in England? If it were me I'd bring it to small claims and file for fees as well.

    I really don't see how Jon would be worse off. He'd be suing a recruiting company not a potential employer. I really don't see how an employer would catch wind of it, and if they did why would they think badly of someone who doesn't want to be misrepresented when they are applying for a job?

    That particular recruiter may not attempt to use him as a candidate in the future, but my bet is they are such a confused organization that they'd never be able to figure out it was him. I bet he could sue them one week and the next he'd be getting call for the still unfilled position at the bank with how they, "..just need to massage his resume format a bit..".
  • ih8u 2009-11-03 14:50
    DemonWasp:
    I believe "shoe-in" refers to "shoe-in-the-door", perhaps more commonly stated as "having a foot in the door".

    Then again, the main article decided to spell it "recuriter", so it could just be further silliness.


    Recuriter is some kinda garbled Latin for running a journey twice (re + curro + iter). That's pretty much exactly what the recruiter tried to get our hero (from the story) to do.
  • monkeyPushButton 2009-11-03 14:51
    Peter:
    SR:
    monkeyPushButton:
    But when I went to Google Fight, shoe in got 146000 and shoo in got 44000 yet shoo in had a block 4x as high and was listed as the winner.

    Maybe they weight it for pedantic-ness?

    Or it's TRWTF.
    No, just that the word "shoe" followed by the word "in" has uses other than incorrectly in place of "shoo in".

    Is it really that difficult or has Google just replaced thinking in your little world?
    Okay, you've explained why "shoe in" has more hits than "shoo in". Now explain why "shoo in" is still (correctly) judged the winner. Preferably without resorting to insults that show that you've misunderstood the point being made.
    Thank you, especially as I agree with the reason why shoe in has more hits.
  • Buffled 2009-11-03 15:28
    lesle:
    In the U.S., it's called "Puffery." It's legal.

    I get lots of puffed resumes. They all get trashed. Sometimes one slips by and I interview the person - THEN the resume gets trashed.
    <p>
    Any competent technical interviewer can weed out puffery in minutes at worst.
  • rfsmit 2009-11-03 16:02
    Matt J:
    I very much doubt that the recruiter tweaked his resumé. He probably tweaked his CV, this being set in Britain and all.

    Oh, it being in Britain, it probably was a "resumé". Americans at least know how to spell the word the French way ("résumé"), and the English way ("resume").
  • Accent Opaque 2009-11-03 16:04
    It's "shoo-in".
    shoo-in (= a candidate or competitor who is sure to win), a casualism deriving from the idea of "shooing" something (as a pet), is so spelled. Yet shoe-in is a frequent error.
    While we're at it, résumé has two accents.
  • Mr.'; Drop Database -- 2009-11-03 16:35
    I really had no idea that it was "shoo-in". I've been doing it wrong all these years.
  • Maurits 2009-11-03 17:46
    If someone tweaks your resume to make you look worse than you are, I could see that being libel.

    If someone tweaks your resume to make you look better than you are, that's fraud.

    (attempt #2)
  • bullrider718 2009-11-03 18:54
    The Real WTF is that there are actually people who use Lotus Notes.
  • monkeypants 2009-11-03 19:42
    CynicalTyler:
    Bluffer McCoy:
    Rule of thumb: slander is spoken.
    That's not a rule of thumb, it's a mnemonic.

    What if you write the mnemonic on your thumb?
  • SQL Dave 2009-11-03 20:48
    More p1ssing on recruiters: I just LOVE how they will purposely send in an obviously unqualified candidate ("mules", I think they're called) just to make a subsequent candidate look like a winner by comparison. I have been muled at least one time that I know of, and it made me want to go all Cartman on him.
  • real-modo 2009-11-03 22:07
    pjt33:
    jordanwb:
    That's why I send my resumes in PDF format. Although I don't know if it's possible to edit them.

    It is, but it requires the ability to use software other than Outlook, IE, or Word, so no recruiter is capable of it.

    A handy tip I picked up for when recruiters ask for a Word doc and you don't have Word is to write your CV in HTML and then save it with a .doc extension.

    So that's what I've been doing wrong... I've been saving it with a '.htm' extension. Better take Outlook and IE off that list.

    Actually, from my experiences watching recruiters struggle mightily with Word, better remove that, too.
  • db 2009-11-03 22:12
    Matt J:
    I very much doubt that the recruiter tweaked his resumé. He probably tweaked his CV, this being set in Britain and all.


    This sort of fraud occurs very frequently, you just haven't seen it yourself yet. If you are in a position to interview people ask them to bring in a copy and compare with the one the agency gave you. Otherwise you may reject people that have had all relevent experience removed or accept people where the CV has been padded with lies that the candidate is unaware of.
  • raptorGT 2009-11-03 22:54
    This actually happened to me - I was the "best candidate" for the datacenter job at Chase Bank. Robert Brooks from KForce Staffing did EXACTLY the same thing in this article. I was promised a job there starting out at $78k, the $95k after being hired and $115k if I was a really great tech! Desperate for a job, I allowed him the knowledge of only the last four digits of my SSN to begin the necessary paperwork. Robert Brooks can be reached at RBrooks@kforce.com.
  • ysth 2009-11-03 23:04
    joe:

    I think he was referring to it being slander as opposed to libel.

    Take that, you Lotus Notes administrator person, you!
  • ysth 2009-11-03 23:12
    Neville Flynn:
    T(Three)RWTFs are that:

    1) The author took the effort to add the accented é
    ...
    3) TDWTF's comment system is a POS. Submit attempt #10 or so, here goes...

    Ok, WTF did you do to sneak an e-acute in? I've never been able to do that.
  • EN-UK user 2009-11-03 23:43
    Neville Flynn:
    1) The author took the effort to add the accented é (I say "effort" due to English keyboards not normally having é readily available) yet still screwed up - it's supposed to be written résumé, not resumé.

    I don't know if it's like this on the US keymap, but é is quite easily accessable on a UK keymap via Alt-Gr+e. Likewise, we've also got áíóú at short access via alt-gr.
  • vt_mruhlin 2009-11-03 23:45
    I had one recruiter who gave me a list of known questions that a company asked in the interview, negotiated a pretty good salary for me. I guess that makes him a nice guy from my perspective, but I can see how giving candidates a heads up on the questions would be a bad thing from the employer's prospective.

    I've also interviewed a few people who had blatant lies on their resumes. Took a while before a boss told me that headhunters will flat out lie.

    If you go with a headhunter, bring hard copies of your resume. Give one copy to every person you talk to, just in case.
  • dddave 2009-11-04 03:15

    "If anything, it's the exact opposite of libel."

    Yeah, it's lebil.
  • Bluffer McCoy 2009-11-04 04:42
    Franz Kafka:
    Bluffer McCoy:

    Nope. English Law explicitly states that the words must be defamatory. They must "cause a reasonable person to think worse of [the supposedly-libelled]". Also, an offer of rectification bars litigation, so all the recruiter has to say is "sorry, I was mistaken". Depending on whether one sues for compensatory or punitive damages, malicious intent must also be proven.


    And what happens when you add nonexistent experience to a resume? The reasonable interviewer thinks you're a schmuck. Bang, defamation. Certainly a reason not to allow reformats.


    Abuse isn't libel though.
  • Bluffer McCoy 2009-11-04 04:46
    Me, I think it's a potential libel suit. Against the recruitment agency. If that's not being "consciously dishonest," and misrepresenting their client in a way that might quite possibly lead to later loss of earnings or the opportunity to earn, then I don't know what is.


    If such losses occurred in the future, you may well have recourse for a suit. Still wouldn't be libellous, though. No matter how much conjecture and "what-if" you nail onto this, the fact remains that simply saying something untrue about another person is not of itself defamatory.
  • RogerWilco 2009-11-04 05:14
    bw:
    I got both my "real" out of college jobs through recruiters. Neither changed my resume. One typed a cover letter for me. Both were super nice and helpful and dealt with pay negotiation for me.

    Well, the one time a recruiter did the pay negotiation for me, I ended up with a very bad deal.

    What my experience is, is companies that use external recruiters/head hunters extensively have a totally incompetent HR department. And any company with an incompetent HR department is going to have that reflected in the people that work there, usually leading to much material worthy of this site.
  • RayS 2009-11-04 05:21
    Adriano:
    Some people do work on internships and the like while in college, or in highschool. How would we find stuff like 'return ofTheJedi' otherwise?
    Hey, that's my line!
  • RogerWilco 2009-11-04 05:31
    Anonymous:
    JohnB:
    @Deprecated:

    Well, when I am sending a resume directly to a company, I would prefer the recipient not see red/green squigglies all over it...
    But yeah, Reader has that neat 'text selection' tool.
    Tools > Options > Spelling&Grammar tab
    Check the box labelled "Hide spelling errors in this document"
    Check the box labelled "Hide grammatical errors in this document"
    And how exactly are you going to do this on their copy of Adobe Reader?

    Print your CV, glue it to a wooden table, take a picture of it, put that in the PDF/word document/whatever.
    Only real suggestion qualified for posting on this site.
  • Mayhem 2009-11-04 05:38
    EN-UK user:
    Neville Flynn:
    1) The author took the effort to add the accented é (I say "effort" due to English keyboards not normally having é readily available) yet still screwed up - it's supposed to be written résumé, not resumé.

    I don't know if it's like this on the US keymap, but é is quite easily accessable on a UK keymap via Alt-Gr+e. Likewise, we've also got áíóú at short access via alt-gr.

    Huh. So thats what that key is for.
    capio - to comprehend (at last)
  • Razumny 2009-11-04 05:48
    IMHO; TRWTF is that Jon never even considered having the recruiter send him a copy of the "tweaked" resume. I always insist on seeing whatever info a recruiter is sending out about me before they send it out.
  • anon 2009-11-04 06:21
    rfsmit:
    Matt J:
    I very much doubt that the recruiter tweaked his resumé. He probably tweaked his CV, this being set in Britain and all.

    Oh, it being in Britain, it probably was a "resumé". Americans at least know how to spell the word the French way ("résumé"), and the English way ("resume").

    It seems strange to me that "American English" uses the 'correct' spelling ("résumé") - it so often seems to take the "lazy" option with certain words - e.g. color/colour. BTW - why isn't "country" spelt without the "o"?
  • anon 2009-11-04 06:28
    dddave:

    "If anything, it's the exact opposite of libel."

    Yeah, it's lebil.

    ledil, Shirley
  • Thief^ 2009-11-04 06:42
    anon:
    BTW - why isn't "country" spelt without the "o"?

    Because then it would be caught by naughty filters.
  • glwtta 2009-11-04 06:53
    I love all the bitching about contracting - did somebody trick the guy into taking the job and he didn't actually know what 'contractor' meant?
  • Kiss me I'm Polish 2009-11-04 06:59
    Ah, recruiters. A world apart. For two years straight after leaving Belgium for good I received offers and requests to update my CV, to which I usually kindly responded with "I don't live there anymore, please erase my profile from your database". To which they promised they certainly would, and a week later sent me another GREAT OPPORTUNITY!!!! starting this Monday.
    But then there are the masters of keywords.
    I once received a job offer in metallurgy. It took me a while to understand why on earth would someone want a guy who worked for years in IT to do stuff with liquid metals or something. Then I found it.
    My résumé included an education curriculum, which mentioned the University of Mining and Metallurgy.
    It's like asking a Cambridge graduate if he could make bridges or if he were good with a camera.
    I'm still waiting for a job offering in a coal mine.
  • Matthew 2009-11-04 08:27
    Kiss me I'm Polish:

    I'm still waiting for a job offering in a coal mine.


    I knew someone who was completing a PhD in aerodynamics. The local job centre helpfully tried to send him to a job as an aircraft mechanic. Strangely enough he wasn't interested.
  • savar 2009-11-04 08:29
    Kelly:
    This is why recruiters should go to hell.


    What value do recruiters provide to employers?

    It's a serious question, I don't know the answer...
  • Bluffer McCoy 2009-11-04 08:49
    Matthew:
    Kiss me I'm Polish:

    I'm still waiting for a job offering in a coal mine.


    I knew someone who was completing a PhD in aerodynamics. The local job centre helpfully tried to send him to a job as an aircraft mechanic. Strangely enough he wasn't interested.


    My response to this sort of mismatching is usually along the lines of "would you ask a Formula One driver to change your fanbelt?". They both work "with cars", after all
  • Martin 2009-11-04 08:54
    When dealing with recruiters, make the groundrules clear and reject any recruiter who does not want to play along:

    1) When they want to edit your resume, they have to send you a comy for your approval. They may not use any version you did not green-light.

    2) Before they send your resume to any company, they must ask you for your permission and tell you where they are sending it to. And they must show you the documents they are about to send.

    Simple as that. If a recruiter does not understand that this is neccessary for you to protect your reputation and to prevent double application, they can rightly go to hell as they are unprofessional and dealing with them is a waste of time.
  • Bluffer McCoy 2009-11-04 09:20
    Martin:
    When dealing with recruiters, make the groundrules clear and reject any recruiter who does not want to play along:

    1) When they want to edit your resume, they have to send you a comy for your approval. They may not use any version you did not green-light.

    2) Before they send your resume to any company, they must ask you for your permission and tell you where they are sending it to. And they must show you the documents they are about to send.

    Simple as that. If a recruiter does not understand that this is neccessary for you to protect your reputation and to prevent double application, they can rightly go to hell as they are unprofessional and dealing with them is a waste of time.


    But I'm allergic to comies
  • dkf 2009-11-04 09:32
    Thief^:
    anon:
    BTW - why isn't "country" spelt without the "o"?

    Because then it would be caught by naughty filters.
    Well, we've seen that clbuttic mistake made before a few times...
  • Posh Bank Contractor 2009-11-04 10:04
    Plenty of time on the train to have learned the basics of lotus notes to pass the interview. I have a contract with a posh bank where I was hired to do ASP.NET C# and Sharepoint Development. I only had sharepoint experience but a few years of java. In the time it took for them to get my login set up and find work for me to do I had subscribed to Safari and learned all I needed. My motto is know about 10% and know where to look up the rest (Safari). Now I'm the MSSQL expert on the team too. I had no DBA experience prior to coming on the team, but I wasn't afraid to tackle mirroring and integration services. Off-shore companies have been working this way for years.
  • Nice try 2009-11-04 10:21
    Posh Bank Contractor:
    Plenty of time on the train to have learned the basics of lotus notes to pass the interview. I have a contract with a posh bank where I was hired to do ASP.NET C# and Sharepoint Development. I only had sharepoint experience but a few years of java. In the time it took for them to get my login set up and find work for me to do I had subscribed to Safari and learned all I needed. My motto is know about 10% and know where to look up the rest (Safari). Now I'm the MSSQL expert on the team too. I had no DBA experience prior to coming on the team, but I wasn't afraid to tackle mirroring and integration services. Off-shore companies have been working this way for years.


    So you don't have any actual experience of anything and just rely on books to fill in what you don't already know? Awesome.
  • Neville Flynn 2009-11-04 11:58
    Posh Bank Contractor:
    Plenty of time on the train to have learned the basics of lotus notes to pass the interview. I have a contract with a posh bank where I was hired to do ASP.NET C# and Sharepoint Development. I only had sharepoint experience but a few years of java. In the time it took for them to get my login set up and find work for me to do I had subscribed to Safari and learned all I needed. My motto is know about 10% and know where to look up the rest (Safari). Now I'm the MSSQL expert on the team too. I had no DBA experience prior to coming on the team, but I wasn't afraid to tackle mirroring and integration services. Off-shore companies have been working this way for years.


    Then this is probably why my job largely consists of fixing the crap code produced by contractors from other countries. I once caught one of them asking very basic questions on an Experts Exchange type forum.
  • Major Sir Jerry-Pending 2009-11-04 12:07
    Neville Flynn:
    Posh Bank Contractor:
    Plenty of time on the train to have learned the basics of lotus notes to pass the interview. I have a contract with a posh bank where I was hired to do ASP.NET C# and Sharepoint Development. I only had sharepoint experience but a few years of java. In the time it took for them to get my login set up and find work for me to do I had subscribed to Safari and learned all I needed. My motto is know about 10% and know where to look up the rest (Safari). Now I'm the MSSQL expert on the team too. I had no DBA experience prior to coming on the team, but I wasn't afraid to tackle mirroring and integration services. Off-shore companies have been working this way for years.


    Then this is probably why my job largely consists of fixing the crap code produced by contractors from other countries. I once caught one of them asking very basic questions on an Experts Exchange type forum.


    We brought some in-house for a while. Imagine my dismay as I sat watching 2 of them - each being paid considerably more than me - scratching their heads over why running init in the following code printed out null:

    class Dumbass {

    String a = null;
    String b = null;
    String[] members = {a, b};

    public void init() {
    a = "something";
    b = "something else";
    System.out.println(members[0]);
    }

    }

    There wasn't even a "oh yeh stupid us!" moment when I explained it to them. They literally hadn't ever known how references work until then.

    Presumably they learnt 10% of Java fundamentals, and relied on "Java for Bluffers" for the rest.
  • legal weasel 2009-11-04 12:09
    Headhunters are awful to deal with.

    That said, my day job puts me in contact with one on a more personal level, and here's the deal:

    * In the US, third-party ones are generally getting a percentage of your salary on the order of, oh... half your tax rate?

    * They need to get this much per hire to support their mid-six-figure lifestyles because the success rate is so weak and corporate turnover is so high.

    * Conversely - since they aren't really sure what they're doing, and don't get a lot of feedback from their client corporations beyond the list of openings HR farms out to them, they only count on each hire they broker to last one contract period. This means they're trying to keep their volume up enough to live, and the fraction of contracts that do renew pushes them out of 'just scraping by' and into those six figures.

    * They're not all *complete* sociopaths, but the vast majority *are* completely nontechnical. What's more damning to the whole relationship is that they have a completely different perspective; our proletarian view of our roles involves actually getting shit done [properly], while their business is making money and the logic runs - 'c'mon, work with me on this, I'm trying to connect you with money, that's what I do! If you get in, we both make money. You want to make some money, right?'

    So - to keep up volume, they spend most of their time crapping out ads and shuffling resumes back and forth to see what sticks (the more desperate/idiotic ones rewriting your resume, the better ones phoning you back to tell you what the 'trigger' keywords HR demands for the seat are).

    If you can actually get in touch with one directly - particularly if you can be a bit conversational, show off some sample achievements, and not come across like a nerdy sociopath to them - you might be able to hammer in an understanding of what your keywords really are, and maybe get them to flip through their inventory and find something better than that one ad you pounced on. Of course, their entire inventory is probably already on [JobSearchSite].com, but you never know.

    There are 'faces in the crowd', and then there's the short list of "reliable" hitters they keep on their short list, know they can carry on a conversation with, and really play 'agent' for (for the Important positions). For those, they can relax and assume you might get two contract periods out of it for them. ;)

    ...

    Downside: To get anywhere, just as with corporate HR directly, you need to come bearing a degree and Certifications. Nothing personal - though certainly aggravating - but these social creatures have no other way to sift a sea of applications down to a dozen interviews. So if you were hoping for low-rung IT or cable-monkey work to finance a degree or certifications, you're going to be flipping burgers (or stocking shelves, or ... doing numerous other things that actually offer better benefits and shorter hours than low-rung IT work!).

    It's actually easier to break into legal [know the right people; be able to type and read your language; be able to look up the procedure for everything in your local Rules of Practice], though that won't take you very far above the poverty line unless you actually go for a full JD and bar admission (or slip into a seat at a big firm with IT in-house and get them to notice your skills and offer you a slot).
  • legal weasel 2009-11-04 12:19
    savar:
    Kelly:
    This is why recruiters should go to hell.


    What value do recruiters provide to employers?

    It's a serious question, I don't know the answer...


    They mostly soak the cost of running advertising and providing first-level filtering (saving HR time by being the ones answering the phone to tell you not to bother without The Certifications). This was probably more of a Thing when it wasn't possible to reach Everyone through a short list of worldwide job-listing websites. And there are still people who can't be bothered to read those, or are following some college career counselor's advice to attend the job fair and Talk to the Nice People...

    They probably make the hires more expensive in the long run, but once the corporate hive-mind has an established relationship with one that produces interviews at a 1:10 wheat:chaff ratio, Where Else Would We Find These People?

    Wasting 10% of HR's time requires 10% more HR staff which probably costs about the same as the premium across all the contracts (when you consider how big HR is likely to be already, at a Fortune 500).
  • Matthew 2009-11-04 12:37
    James:
    Any time I've submitted a CV as PDF to a recruiter it's been sent back with an angry note that I should submit something "compatible with Microsoft Word" because "not every client is using a MAC."


    Last time that happened to me, I took my PDF, rasterised it into a large B&W bitmap image, and pasted it into a Word document. Next thing, I got back an angry note saying there was "something wrong" with my file as they "couldn't edit it for some reason".
  • Jay 2009-11-04 12:47
    Bim Job:
    It seems to me that, in the current state of UK libel law (based on countless precedents, rather than statute), it doesn't matter whether it's an innocent misrepresentation, a malicious misrepresentation, or (as in the Singh case) a misrepresentation that exists only in the mind of a single (wonderfully well-qualified, and admirable in every respect) judge.


    A few years back I was on a grand jury. A case was brought before us of a man accused of "harassment". Apparently he went to a restaurant for breakfast and asked the waitress out on a date. She said no. He went back for lunch, got the same waitress, and asked her out again. Again she said no. The next day he went back to the restaurant, she wasn't on duty, but he left his phone number and asked someone to tell her to call him. At that point she called the police and accused him of harassment.

    (Full disclosure: The police said the man had recently been released from a mental hospital. At the time they didn't know why he was in. The woman didn't know this when she made the complaint, so that fact itself wasn't a factor. Maybe he was acting strangely.)

    I questioned how this could qualify as "harassment". The waitress never claimed that he followed her home or threatened her or did anything other than ask her out on a date two or three times. Annoying, perhaps, but a crime punishable by five years in jail?

    I found the answer far scarier than I ever imagined. The prosecutor explained that the legal definition of harassment has "nothing to do with the actions of the defendant, but only the feelings of the victim". The prosecutor went on to explain that as the victim was frightened, that made it legal harassment.

    So if I said, "When that person walked past me on the street, yeah, he never said anything or even looked at me, but the way he walked was just scary" -- I could have legal grounds for charging him with harassment. It doesn't matter what he did, just how it made me feel. Like, wow.

    You know, people who program in Javascript scare me sometimes ...
  • Jay 2009-11-04 12:53
    In the United States, the piece of paper you send to a potential employer describing your qualifications is called a "resume" (with or without the accents). A "CV" is an aircraft carrier. (Unless it's nuclear powered, in which case it's CVN.)

    I recommend against sending an aircraft carrier to a potential employer unless you are applying for a job as an admiral.

    http://navysite.de/carriers.htm
  • WORKING STORAGE 2009-11-04 13:04
    Isn't that why we have books? Maybe you're not much for book learn'n?
  • legal weasel 2009-11-04 13:35
    Jay:
    I found the answer far scarier than I ever imagined. The prosecutor explained that the legal definition of harassment has "nothing to do with the actions of the defendant, but only the feelings of the victim". The prosecutor went on to explain that as the victim was frightened, that made it legal harassment.

    So if I said, "When that person walked past me on the street, yeah, he never said anything or even looked at me, but the way he walked was just scary" -- I could have legal grounds for charging him with harassment. It doesn't matter what he did, just how it made me feel. Like, wow.

    You know, people who program in Javascript scare me sometimes ...


    The prosecutor is responsible for making that argument, he represents the state.

    As I recently discovered/was reminded when called up, the jury is asked to stand as a "trier of fact;" you're really supposed to focus on what evidence you believe and whether you think it applies to the charge(s); then the law is supposed to fall into place around that finding (in logical fashion; anyone faced with the same jury findings should come to the same outcome of law, subject to any minor discretion in sentencing guidelines and stuff).

    If the law is actually written as the prosecutor describes, then.. technically you're supposed to be deciding whether the events actually happened as they were told, and if they did in a manner that triggers the law, jurors have no say in that until the next time you vote for your legislators.

    It's a bit esoteric and messy. We haven't really endorsed jury nullification in the US (well, it still varies by state but some actively make it a mistrial) - "This law sucks, let him walk" - since the 1800s, since it was way too discriminatory, and a one-off thing per case: since the jury is charged with finding the *facts*, saying 'screw this' is like leaving this lying around (pseudocode):

    {
    bool condition_exists;
    bool facts_prove_condition;

    facts_prove_condition=trial();

    if(facts_prove_condition) then condition_exists=true;
    condition_exists=false;

    if(condition_exists) then law();
    }

    ...instead of fixing the code elsewhere.

    That said, if this bothers you and you can think of a good system to let juries find a law unjust, pitch it to your legislators and see if they can codify it - adding an exception to the psuedocode above that "permanently modifies the database." Precedent set by juries can't really be any worse (if not much better) than precedent set by judges or by the legislators.

    [Reasons we haven't tried to do it: It doesn't benefit the legislators any; it only encourages the legislators to write even dumber laws to pander to constituencies, maybe even personally hoping they get shot down on judicial review - see every attempt to combine church and state ever; and average citizens have a tendency to want to repeal things like tax code enforcement without considering the consequences, leading to California.

    Captcha: Abbas?
  • C 2009-11-04 15:22
    DOA:
    "I tweaked your resumé a bit to make it look a little more professional"

    How to tell you've been to TDWTF before: You guessed the entire article from this sentence.
    You mean you guessed the part about the Darren, too? o.O
  • Chelloveck 2009-11-04 15:44
    Southeast England (Brighton, for the sake of argument) to Aberdeen is only 10 hours by car according to Google. 10 hours there and 10 back still leaves 4 to work. What's the problem?

    Seattle to Atlanta is 41 hours one-way, though. Now *that's* a long day's drive!

    It's so cute that they can go all the way from one end of their little island to the other, and still get there in time for tea. :-)
  • A Gould 2009-11-04 16:29
    JohnB:
    To all those who send in a PDF resume ... why?


    Mainly because I use OpenOffice, but also because PDF has a much smaller chance of being munged while being looked at.
  • FoolishOwl 2009-11-04 17:19
    Jay:
    Apparently he went to a restaurant for breakfast and asked the waitress out on a date. She said no. He went back for lunch, got the same waitress, and asked her out again. Again she said no. The next day he went back to the restaurant, she wasn't on duty, but he left his phone number and asked someone to tell her to call him. At that point she called the police and accused him of harassment.

    The prosecutor's explanation seems pretty stupid.

    However, as described, this scenario is pretty obviously harassment. The woman clearly turned down the first request for a date, and the man returned to her place of employment twice more in a short time. Coming back a second time, after the first refusal, was already threatening. Coming back the next day, after two refusals, shows a determined refusal to respect her wishes. Furthermore, he's interfering with her ability to perform her job, so by day two, she'd have to consider whether to go to the police, or leave her job.
  • Jeff 2009-11-05 00:41
    I did this as well, and never understood why some recruiters got so worked up that it wasn't in Word format. This explains so, so much.
  • oheso 2009-11-05 01:22
    Dunno how it works in various countries. Around here, if the headhunter submits your resume/CV and it has your contact information on it, there's little more than the employer's code of ethics that prevents him calling you directly, and therefore screwing the headhunter out of his cut.

    So the headhunter simply removes your contact information from the resume/CV/rirekisho. If the employer is interested, he has to contact the headhunter to set up the first meet. You could still together (you and the employer) decide to screw the headhunter out of his cut, but it makes get caught a whole lot more likely.

    I've dealt with a couple of headhunters in this way, and they've never "fluffed" my resume/CV/rirekisho. Just removed the contact information. Perhaps I've been lucky.

    And I always bring my own copies to the interview. And the headhunters (I really have been lucky) have always contacted me before flogging my resume.
  • Swa 2009-11-05 04:09
    FoolishOwl:
    However, as described, this scenario is pretty obviously harassment. The woman clearly turned down the first request for a date, and the man returned to her place of employment twice more in a short time. Coming back a second time, after the first refusal, was already threatening. Coming back the next day, after two refusals, shows a determined refusal to respect her wishes. Furthermore, he's interfering with her ability to perform her job, so by day two, she'd have to consider whether to go to the police, or leave her job.

    obviously?

    not quite so obvious. i think we can probably blame most of these instances on movies, books and women in general, don't you think?

    "no means yes" and "the guy who keeps trying always wins" mindset is part of our current culture i'm afraid. in many circumstances the guy would just be labeled as 'driven' or 'stubborn', here the dude is facing legal charges.

    well, i guess the movie police can start arresting pretty much all leading characters in romantic comedies? wouldn't make much of a movie with so much restraining orders and prison sentences. :)
  • Major Sir Jerry-Pending 2009-11-05 04:27
    FoolishOwl:
    Jay:
    Apparently he went to a restaurant for breakfast and asked the waitress out on a date. She said no. He went back for lunch, got the same waitress, and asked her out again. Again she said no. The next day he went back to the restaurant, she wasn't on duty, but he left his phone number and asked someone to tell her to call him. At that point she called the police and accused him of harassment.

    The prosecutor's explanation seems pretty stupid.

    However, as described, this scenario is pretty obviously harassment. The woman clearly turned down the first request for a date, and the man returned to her place of employment twice more in a short time. Coming back a second time, after the first refusal, was already threatening. Coming back the next day, after two refusals, shows a determined refusal to respect her wishes. Furthermore, he's interfering with her ability to perform her job, so by day two, she'd have to consider whether to go to the police, or leave her job.


    It is this exact attitude that has led to playground fights - a fact of life in years gone by - now resulting in criminal records for all concerned.
  • Nice try 2009-11-05 04:28
    WORKING STORAGE:
    Isn't that why we have books? Maybe you're not much for book learn'n?


    Google "false dichotomy". Read, digest, learn. You may use books if you desire.
  • A Gould 2009-11-05 10:47
    Jay:

    I recommend against sending an aircraft carrier to a potential employer unless you are applying for a job as an admiral.

    But if you have a spare CV (or CVN) lying around, I'll happily take it off your hands...
  • luis.espinal 2009-11-05 14:35
    There are several WTFs along the way, specially for the "victim".

    You always, always, always ask the recruiter to show you the "tweaked" resume before sending it to the client. Also, you always, always, always ask for a full description of a job position.

    I've avoided some snafus by always insisting in the later point. Over eager recruiters can (and will) put you in for a position that you are not qualified for. Sometimes by accident, or by stupidity or just lack of ethics. It can happen - so you must be candid and forceful about where you are willing to be sent.

    I've had my goods and bads with recruiters. There is no point in vilifying the entire sector just because some apples got sour. Doing so is "weakly orthogonal" to vilifying women because they don't like nerds... wait what? Anyways...

    Vilifying them is projecting the problem somewhere else. Work the problem instead and, through your career, develop a working rapport with recruiters that, more or less, have worked with you and have been willing to listen to your concerns and who demonstrate a sense of ethics.

    And for those who might give you an icky feeling, just use them. Who knows, even if you have to insist a thousand times not to get misrepresented, you might end up getting a job through them.
  • ben 2009-11-05 15:35
    "Sounds like a case of libel to me. Make up your train ticket that way."

    So if he wasn't screwed over enough by the recruiter, he can give the rest of his money to a lawyer!
  • Nice try 2009-11-06 06:05
    luis.espinal:
    Over eager recruiters can (and will) put you in for a position that you are not qualified for. Sometimes by accident, or by stupidity or just lack of ethics.


    Often because a couple of buzzwords on the job spec also appear on your CV.

    And for those who might give you an icky feeling, just use them. Who knows, even if you have to insist a thousand times not to get misrepresented, you might end up getting a job through them.


    Happened to me. Worked out nicely.
  • Chris 2009-11-06 08:25
    A Shoe-In is also a referral to being repeatedly kicked in the head.

    "Shut your mouth or I will shoe you in."
  • The Lone Contractor 2009-11-08 13:54
    I very nearly fell for this last week. Having spent most of my career working middle tier to back end and doing maybe a year of ASP.Net I was rail roaded by a recruiter into going for an interview for an web developer analyst. I fell for all the schmoozing along the lines of 'Don't worry, they want proper developers, not just web developers - I've put you forward for development lead ..' Having spent most of a contract in a similar position I had convinced myself I could do it. Two nervous days later I had the pep talk from the agent. More schmoozing and a casual 'Just gen up on your asp.net and er, CSS. There will be some tough questions on that. Don't worry though, the last candidate I sent was rejected because of the culture fit - he was technically perfect.'
    It reaffirms the fact that IT recruitment consultants FIND PEOPLE FOR JOBS and not jobs for people.
  • tired beaurocrat 2009-11-08 19:12
    The one you want, one with the wrong personality, and one completely unsuitable.

    They can't hire the second one, and the third one proves that you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel.
  • Marcwolf 2009-11-09 22:42
    Reminds me of when I was at a recruiting agency looking for work. The recruiter who was trying to put me in an IT positions asked
    "What is this squelch on your resume"
    "Squelch?" I asked.
    After looking I saw she was reading the term "SQL"

    Needless to say I grabbed my resume and fled the building lest they try and place me somewhere. I could imagine some of the positions they would try and put me to..
  • Marcwolf 2009-11-09 22:48
    I am a computer programmer and was once offered a job as an accountant
    "After all - accountants use computers.. don't they?"
  • Robert 2009-11-11 11:37
    Wow, some people are really that slow.
  • Roberto 2009-11-28 01:00
    JohnB:
    To all those who send in a PDF resume ... why?


    Because Word can't render Latex documents.
  • TrXtR 2009-12-04 07:36
    Interisting reading this...

    Previously looking for a new position, I contacted a rather large and well known recruitment agency. I sent in my CV, and they asked me to come in for an interview with them.

    That's the first thing that got me worried. I knew they had no clue about what I'm doing and that it's a waste of my time to go see them and tell them things they wont hear, remember or listen to.

    The first thing I told them in the interview is that I dont like them at all, my experience has been that they will lie and say anything they can to get me to sign a contract.
    They re-assured me, and listened to what I was looking for in a job.

    They contacted me about a position, I went for an interview, perfect company, everything great, but it's too far to travel. So at first I decide against the position and convinced to think about it over the weakend.

    The monday comes, and after consulting with my better half we decide to take the job. Agent tells me it's all good on employers side, and I must just resign. I resign... future employer phones and says no, it's not fine, he needed me that friday, and he needed me 15 days earlier. He cant give me the job. Agent tells me, I had to tell you to resign to make sure I get the contract.

    Ok, all good. They find me a new job. "Just go in, make them smile and you'll have the job". I was told that this was for the same exact position I was going to take previously, just that the other company lost the contract.

    Knowing well what the position was, the interview was 5 minutes long, everyone happy.

    1st Day on the job, I realize that it's not at all the position that I was going to receive at the previous company. It was a Lie... just to get me to sign the contract. And well, they missed the mark... biig time...

    So here we are...
  • Quirkafleeg 2009-12-14 11:27
    Bluffer McCoy:
    AH:
    Sounds like a case of libel to me. Make up your train ticket that way.
    If anything, it's the exact opposite of libel.
    Anti-libel? That reminds me of anti-crime, you know, proffering-with-embarassment and suchlike.
  • Quirkafleeg 2009-12-14 11:29
    James:
    Any time I've submitted a CV as PDF to a recruiter it's been sent back with an angry note that I should submit something "compatible with Microsoft Word" because "not every client is using a MAC."
    Their computers have Ethernet interfaces or wireless networking, right? Then they're all using MACs…

    (IGMC)
  • Quirkafleeg 2009-12-14 11:48
    anon:
    dddave:
    "If anything, it's the exact opposite of libel."

    Yeah, it's lebil.
    ledil, Shirley
    …lɘdil
  • Big Me 2010-01-12 16:54
    None of this surprises me - employment agencies are, by and large, parasitic liars. Hope he eventually got something..
  • Stevie D 2010-08-06 09:29
    TRWTF is the thought that anyone in England could refer to a CV as a "resumé" without barfing all over the floor ... please, let's pay attention here.

    CV (Curriculum Vitae) - What people in England write when applying for jobs
    Résumé - What people in the Untied States write when applying for jobs
    Resumé - A linguistic bastardisation that should be shot.
  • jeff 2012-12-17 13:13
    Good grief, recruiters... those who can't do, recruit. Those who can't recruit, hire recruiters. I'm often stricken by their similarity to barnacles in that they require a parasitic connection to a more capable organism simply to move around, they are innumerable, and they serve no obvious purpose. In that last item, barnacles are actually probably more useful than recruiters as they likely serve some minute purpose... recruiters clearly serve none. I get about twenty or so emails and/or voicemails from recruiters daily if I leave my resume online, and many of them have clearly not read/understood my skill set. Some get my name wrong, and one even seemed to think I was a recruiter myself and was asking me to forward an opportunity to my developer clients-- I don't think it gets any closer to anti-purpose than meta-recruiting (except in government, where anti-purpose is the norm and purpose threatens an explosion)

    If I were the shoo-in candidate here I think I would have had more than a few choice words for the second recruiter who essentially called him a loser, and then I'd be forwarding the recruiting company's name to the bank and everywhere else I could reach as a fraudulent organization
  • Isikyus 2013-08-01 10:20
    The "English way", being, of course, the way it is spelt by the English?