Comment On We Need a Body

Smeghead:

In UK that would be C-Hash ;)

here in the 'states, Hash is not legal, so the folks at Microsoft, being the politically correct bunch they are, chose a less incendiary name.

glwtta:

If some tool expected me to write trivial SQL in an interview, I would walk out right there.

I'm there to be interviewed about my experience, not to do tricks on command.

You may not get a job, but at least you'll not have to suffer the indignity of saying/writing "SELECT * FROM ..."

MMMmmmmmm, C hash.

john:

"Programming is programming. As long as the person knows how to code, picking up new languages is pretty simple." = bullshit. i rejected someone last week for saying approximately the same thing. if you/he think you/he can become a useful java programmer when all you know is VB programming, you/he are crazed.

I was hired, despite my lack of Java, being told what I mentioned, though, I came from C++, and was told I inherently know Java. If ALL they know is VB, or any single language for that matter, then maybe you have a point. However, if they seem to have a wide range of languages (any decent programmer should have at LEAST 2, if not more), any decent programmer should be able to pick up any language you need, unless it is a huge paradigm shift, such as web programming to mainframe programming, OO to functional, etc.

You fail at music.

C sharp is a half-step above C, not a half octave. C is a full active above C and visa-versa. B flat is a step and a half below C sharp.

Homer:

MMMmmmmmm, C hash.

And the question is: what happens when you let an intern work unsupervised for months?

C Tic-Tac-Toe

Doesn't matter, as long as it's not VB.

Reminds me of my former job. They had crazy worker turnaround - 5 of us left in a few months.

C Plus Plus Plus Plus

I love this thread. It's like a perfectly distilled head-on collision between our resident wannabe-but-clueless "geeks" ("It's tic-tac-toe!" "It's tic-tac-toe!" "It's tic-tac-toe!" "It's tic-tac-toe!" "It's tic-tac-toe!"), and the actual geeks who are at least attempting to be somewhat clever about it.

john:

"Programming is programming. As long as the person knows how to code, picking up new languages is pretty simple." = bullshit. i rejected someone last week for saying approximately the same thing. if you/he think you/he can become a useful java programmer when all you know is VB programming, you/he are crazed.

Well, yeah, if you know "VB programming" you are pretty much useless, if on the other hand, you are a skilled programmer you should be able to become productive in a (reasonable) new language in a couple of weeks.

Say someone has close to 10 years programming experience, primarily in Java and Perl, with a working knowledge of C, C++, Lisp, Pascal (why not), a bunch of the HTML markup scripts (ASP, PHP, ColdFusion, etc) and the DHTML-related dialects.

Would you seriously not hire that person to write, let's say, Python? (Assuming they are, in fact, competent in the above, of course.)

I'm always weary of people who, when describing themselves as a programmer, qualify it with a language. Programming isn't learning syntax.

They needed a body .. *fear*

Franz Kafka:

FredSaw:

Someone You Know:

FredSaw:

Xaox:

I've always liked "ess-cue-ell", here's why:

CFO - "$accountingSystemVendor says we need a 'MS-sequal' server. Why do we need another server if we already have one?"

How does saying "ess cue ell" change the CFO's understanding of the word "server"?

It doesn't. The joke is that the CFO heard "SQL" as the word "sequel", and (fairly logically) thought that a "sequel server" was an additional server related to one the company already had, by analogy with a sequel to a novel or a film. If "SQL" had been spelled out instead of pronounced as "sequel", this blunder would not have occurred.

Why? That was my original question... why would it not have occurred? He heard "sequel server" and thought it meant another computer. My question: why would he not have thought the same thing when he heard "ess cue ell server"? If he doesn't know what "MS Sequel Server" is, then he doesn't know what "MS Ess Cue Ell Server" is, either.

Addendum (2008-03-06 12:57):
Cancel that... I just got it. "Sequel" as in, a followup to the one they already have. Sorry, maybe I need another cuppa.

The bigger question is this: shouldn't a CFO know what SQL server is?

Maybe. A CFO makes high-level financial decisions along the lines of allocating $X to this department and $Y to that project, and so on. If the IT department asks for something like a new server, the CFO doesn't necessarily need to know what it is, just how much the IT department needs it, how much it will benefit the company, and whether it is more important than various other things the CFO needs to spend money on.

thought Gato was spanish for cat.... maybe you know another spanish

SnapShot:

So which is it, C Sharp, C pound, C hash, C number sign or C octothorp?

I prefer C-crosshatch.

themagni:

SnapShot:

So which is it, C Sharp, C pound, C hash, C number sign or C octothorp?

I call it D flat.

Have you ever checked what flat-D is? (www.flat-d.com)

Digitalbath:

I have always wondered about being in a situation like that. Would it be possible, since your productivity is being decimated by all the hand holding, to go in and tell your boss something along the lines of, "Hey, if you fire 2 people that we have recently hired, I will take over all their responsibilities if you pay me 3x my salary." Of course, you would need free time, but it seems like it's feasible from a work load standpoint if they aren't doing anything. Maybe do it for a year, save up a bunch of money and then quit for a job that doesn't take 80 hours a week. Would this work? Has anybody ever tried doing it?

I didn't try that... *grumbles* I should have. If I ever get into that situation again, I'll definitely consider it...

Because what I did do was set up an application that helped our "programmers" set up clients on our "portal." *shiver* Gobs of WTF-ery involved, I'm sure. Before that it was done by fat-fingering and copy-pasting records into a single, bloated 1NF SQL database, which, to me was even more WTF-itude. Then, when that and other applications I built (in my personal time) had prospered for long enough, I added up all the time I saved and created a report on how much money I would save the company if I were put to the task of solely developing internal software which would make processes standard and efficient. I had already saved the company over 4000 man hours for the year, there's no way they wouldn't let me do that, right? Wrong. They caught my game. They found out I just wanted my own department away from the mayhem and destruction and said, "N-O." And stamped it.

I cried and hollered, but it fell on deaf ears. When my two year mark came around, I was out the door. Despite all the hardship, I loved that place. It was a lot of fun. Stressful, but fun. But man did I ever get baptized by fire.

I did check back about a year ago and heard that they now have a whole team of people doing what I proposed to do myself. At least I never had to manage anyone.

glwtta:

If some tool expected me to write trivial SQL in an interview, I would walk out right there.

I'm there to be interviewed about my experience, not to do tricks on command.

Good man. Save us all some time.

What datatype would you use to store a string of characters?

That one is easy. Just make an int array. Each number in the array corresponds with the UTF-8 number of the character. Of course, if you want to save memory, you could also make a multidimensional array. The first dimension being the character's number and the second being the location(s) in the string.

duh! It's C tic tac toe!

no it's C++++.

Franz Kafka:

FredSaw:

Someone You Know:

FredSaw:

Xaox:

I've always liked "ess-cue-ell", here's why:

CFO - "$accountingSystemVendor says we need a 'MS-sequal' server. Why do we need another server if we already have one?"

How does saying "ess cue ell" change the CFO's understanding of the word "server"?

It doesn't. The joke is that the CFO heard "SQL" as the word "sequel", and (fairly logically) thought that a "sequel server" was an additional server related to one the company already had, by analogy with a sequel to a novel or a film. If "SQL" had been spelled out instead of pronounced as "sequel", this blunder would not have occurred.

Why? That was my original question... why would it not have occurred? He heard "sequel server" and thought it meant another computer. My question: why would he not have thought the same thing when he heard "ess cue ell server"? If he doesn't know what "MS Sequel Server" is, then he doesn't know what "MS Ess Cue Ell Server" is, either.

Addendum (2008-03-06 12:57):
Cancel that... I just got it. "Sequel" as in, a followup to the one they already have. Sorry, maybe I need another cuppa.

The bigger question is this: shouldn't a CFO know what SQL server is?

A CFO pays an IT staff to understand what it is. Just like a developer shouldn't be expected to understand the discount cash flow model intimately, a CFO shouldn't be expected to understand the in's and out's of technology.

They are paid to make business decisions on what benefits the company. Because if it doesnt somehow have value to the company then its not worth doing.

The read WTF is an ad on the front page, of www . ezgsa . com, which reminds me of another recent WFT (Government suppliers guide).

I bet he doesn't even know what ESPN stands for.

Sheesh.

Andy Goth:

Seriously, it took me a couple years to figure out that C# really is pronounced "C-sharp". I had assumed "C-pound" on account of "C-sharp" being too punny and already in use for several projects.

I can't figure out if that disqualifies me from commenting here or makes me a valued asset to the WTF community.

Pope:

They found out I just wanted my own department away from the mayhem and destruction and said, "N-O."

Your mistake, of course, is that you expected to be promoted to head of your own department and not have to handle mayhem and destruction, aka Politics.

People should practice political skill to be promoted to that sort of position. Otherwise, the best you could do is redefine your job description but stay in the same department, and that's if your manager is sympathetic.

SnapShot:

So which is it, C Sharp, C pound, C hash, C number sign or C octothorp?

It is D Flat.

McGuffin:

But did he say "see-kwal" or "ess-cue-ell"?

His type always, always says "see-kwal".

No, you're not even close. It's either C web or C net.

Brandon:

thought Gato was spanish for cat.... maybe you know another spanish

Gato is spanish for cat, but Gato can mean a lot of things depending on which country you are...

For example, in Argentina they also call Gato to women who sell theirselves for big amounts of money to spend the night with, or even the jack to lift the car when you get a flat tire.

-- End of useless information, for now --

cocktothorpe gets my vote.

C-blog? C-2.0? C-intertubes?

Seriously, lets keep this awesome humor goldmine rolling! C-your mama!

alegr:

The read WTF is an ad on the front page, of www . ezgsa . com, which reminds me of another recent WFT (Government suppliers guide).

Are you refering to "The Secure Site"?

Is anyone else getting a Billy Madison "dumber for having read this thread" feeling?

dtech:

What datatype would you use to store a string of characters?

That one is easy. Just make an int array. Each number in the array corresponds with the UTF-8 number of the character...

Try using strings in C or Assembly for an embedded chip without native string support in the compiler.

I'm not talking about ancient coding practices here - most computers are embedded.

eekee:

Okay, this isn't precisely relevant to this article, but I've got to say it some time. The very fact that # even could be described as a pound sign is a huge WTF to me! As far as I can tell, the only way it got that name was via ancient 7-bit ascii printers, which sometimes substituted the pound sign for the hash character. How it could have spread from that to such widespread usage, I don't know, unless perhaps it was an acceptable substitute for the true pound sign for a long time before that. Still seems a case of extreme carelessness on the part of a great many people for # to aquire the name "pound sign".

I have also seen it used in engineering to refer to a pound. (weight or mass) This is going back 20+ years.

PeriSoft:

themagni:

SnapShot:

So which is it, C Sharp, C pound, C hash, C number sign or C octothorp?

I call it D flat.

You bastard. *shakes fist*

Nah, my parents were married for about two years before I was born.

I have noticed that some other folks have started calling it D-flat in the thread, which is kind of cool. That's my second meme.

I'm a musician as well, so it was the first thing I thought of was the enharmonic equivalent. By the way, that guy who went on about the octaves and the B-flat thing was totally out to lunch. You could say that a Bb instrument playing in treble clef would play an Eb / D# to play C# major. There might be other instruments where the Bb thing would be true, but I'm not interested in spending my lunch looking it up.

akatherder:

Is anyone else getting a Billy Madison "dumber for having read this thread" feeling?

NO YOURE ARE!

glwtta:

If some tool expected me to write trivial SQL in an interview, I would walk out right there.

I'm there to be interviewed about my experience, not to do tricks on command.

"...that the men of Gilead said unto him, Art thou an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay; Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand."

It's not a test. It's a shibboleth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth

it's C fence

KattMan:

john:

"Programming is programming. As long as the person knows how to code, picking up new languages is pretty simple." = bullshit. i rejected someone last week for saying approximately the same thing. if you/he think you/he can become a useful java programmer when all you know is VB programming, you/he are crazed.

Are you saying that an understanding of theory and basic logical constructs are useless against the way different language form those constructs?

Tell me, how hard is it to go from:
If x = 3 Then
do something
End If
to this:
if(x==3)
{
do something;
}

Doesn't seem to hard to me. The theory and logical construct is the exact same and they are used the exact same way for the exact same reasons. The only different is the syntax. To take this further, if you are a poor developer in one language, you will be a poor developer in any language.

i'm saying that anyone who says 'programming is programming' is fundamentally mistaken. it's not. i've seen enough C-savvy programmers write procedural java, and it's not pretty (not trying to pick on C programmers, i admire them for what they can do)

McGuffin:

But did he say "see-kwal" or "ess-cue-ell"?

Ess Cue Ell - The Sequel

That is one of my favorite print vs spoken confusions. When you write, which is correct?
1) Use an SQL statement.
2) Use a SQL statement.

Depends on how you pronounce "SQL" in your mind when you read it. When I'm speaking (and pay attention), it seems that I use them interchangeably.

glwtta:

john:

"Programming is programming. As long as the person knows how to code, picking up new languages is pretty simple." = bullshit. i rejected someone last week for saying approximately the same thing. if you/he think you/he can become a useful java programmer when all you know is VB programming, you/he are crazed.

Well, yeah, if you know "VB programming" you are pretty much useless, if on the other hand, you are a skilled programmer you should be able to become productive in a (reasonable) new language in a couple of weeks.

Say someone has close to 10 years programming experience, primarily in Java and Perl, with a working knowledge of C, C++, Lisp, Pascal (why not), a bunch of the HTML markup scripts (ASP, PHP, ColdFusion, etc) and the DHTML-related dialects.

Would you seriously not hire that person to write, let's say, Python? (Assuming they are, in fact, competent in the above, of course.)

I'm always weary of people who, when describing themselves as a programmer, qualify it with a language. Programming isn't learning syntax.

i think we actually agree. i'm saying i wouldn't hire someone who thinks that it's all about syntax. i am not saying i wouldn't hire someone who wasn't expert at whatever language my project is using. the guy i interviewed knew the language i was looking for (yeah, it's java), but he saw it as just another syntax to throw his bad idea of software engineering around in, and his statement that he could program in pretty much any old language i had was indicative to me that he didn't understand some fundamentals of software development.

RP:

MS calls it "C sharp"

Are You Sure!
Where are your references?!

SnapShot:

So which is it, C Sharp, C pound, C hash, C number sign or C octothorp?

It's C number sign: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_Sharp_%28programming_language%29#Language_name

john:

Programming is programming. As long as the person knows how to code, picking up new languages is pretty simple.

= bullshit.

i rejected someone last week for saying approximately the same thing. if you/he think you/he can become a useful java programmer when all you know is VB programming, you/he are crazed.

Right.

I know once I learned my first language I was forever stuck. Unable to learn a new one. Simply confounded when new syntactic structures were presented to me. Unable to fathom the same conceptual design under a different tongue. Aye, in other words: no hablo. </sarcasm>

Some languages have a larger barrier to entry than others, and if you mean that for one to say they can come in and immediately be productive and useful when making a huge switch is absurd then I would agree. However, if the person is a good developer, they should have little trouble picking up the missing pieces, putting them together, and becoming productive in fairly short order as long as the language is around the same level (meaning high to low level languages) as the one they are transitioning from. Going from VB to ASM is quite a leap, but VB to Java is perfectly reasonable. I will concede, however, that there are some syntaxes and language structures that can pose quite a mental block when switching from some language types to others. C style languages to something like Ruby or LISP, for example.

john:

KattMan:

john:

"Programming is programming. As long as the person knows how to code, picking up new languages is pretty simple." = bullshit. i rejected someone last week for saying approximately the same thing. if you/he think you/he can become a useful java programmer when all you know is VB programming, you/he are crazed.

Are you saying that an understanding of theory and basic logical constructs are useless against the way different language form those constructs?

Tell me, how hard is it to go from:
If x = 3 Then
do something
End If
to this:
if(x==3)
{
do something;
}

Doesn't seem to hard to me. The theory and logical construct is the exact same and they are used the exact same way for the exact same reasons. The only different is the syntax. To take this further, if you are a poor developer in one language, you will be a poor developer in any language.

i'm saying that anyone who says 'programming is programming' is fundamentally mistaken. it's not. i've seen enough C-savvy programmers write procedural java, and it's not pretty (not trying to pick on C programmers, i admire them for what they can do)

Procedural programming is procedural programming
Functional programming is functional programming
Mainframe programming is mainframe programming
Object oriented programming is object oriented programming

Happy? "Programming is programming" seemed to save me keystrokes when I wrote it. I suspected people would be able to realize what I meant. Anyway, any decent programmer will realize that Java is inherently different from C, in that one is procedural, and the other is object oriented, and will adjust their thinking accordingly. Trying to force procedural programming in an object oriented world is dumb, and vice versa.

themagni:

I'm a musician as well, so it was the first thing I thought of was the enharmonic equivalent. By the way, that guy who went on about the octaves and the B-flat thing was totally out to lunch. You could say that a Bb instrument playing in treble clef would play an Eb / D# to play C# major. There might be other instruments where the Bb thing would be true, but I'm not interested in spending my lunch looking it up.

Which guy was out to lunch? Me, speaking from a music-theory/composing perspective, or the guy I responded to?

themagni:

NO YOURE ARE!

Did you mean to say, "Know your R? Or was it perhaps "Know your R's"?

No, wait, now I've got it. You wanted to tell us, "Know your arse." I'm sure you do.

Beernutts:

I bet he doesn't even know what ESPN stands for.

Isn't a television network devoted to paranormal activity, extra sensory perception in particular?