You Don't Exist. Go Away!

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  • Cbuttius 2012-08-10 06:07
    I do exFR1ST you know. Now feature this.. or I will never go away.

    Incidentally with regards that telephone number, the real WTF is that after the +44 the next digit is an 8.

    Means they probably have one of those 0845 numbers that are fobbed off as "local rate" but are not included in inclusive packages and that make megabucks for telephony providers who charge extortionate rates to call them.

  • RuBen 2012-08-10 06:17
    At least the phone number has a fallback: "If not in put behind flowers". I shoould check your garden for the real phone number
  • Steve 2012-08-10 06:18
    Cbuttius:
    I do exFR1ST you know. Now feature this.. or I will never go away.

    Incidentally with regards that telephone number, the real WTF is that after the +44 the next digit is an 8.

    Means they probably have one of those 0845 numbers that are fobbed off as "local rate" but are not included in inclusive packages and that make megabucks for telephony providers who charge extortionate rates to call them.



    BT include them in the inclusive mins of their packages.
  • MiffTheFox 2012-08-10 06:22
    "VBScript: File Transfer Manager"

    TRWTF?
  • Thomas 2012-08-10 06:23
    The "You don't exist" message is presumably from git, which had this cute message in pre-v1.7.11 when getpwuid(getuid()) fails. In which case it would be fair to conclude that your current user does indeed not exist....
  • asdf 2012-08-10 06:33
    "You Don't Exist. Go Away!" is much older than that, login command from linux's sysutils package require syslog and some other logs up and running in order to manage user's logins. That message usually appeared when you tried to logout.
  • anonymous 2012-08-10 06:56
    I think I remember that from Ultrix, when trying to talk to someone who wasn't in the utmp file.
  • John 2012-08-10 07:05
    What's the problem with the first one, somebody obviously set up the computer to turn off the display 76 seconds before you stop using it. Think of the energy savings.
  • John 2012-08-10 07:06
    John:
    What's the problem with the first one, somebody obviously set up the computer to turn off the display 76 seconds before you stop using it. Think of the energy savings.


    Aargh, second one. I blame time dilation.
  • Foo Bar 2012-08-10 07:10
    http://www.google.com/search?q=passwd+you+dont+exist+go+away+1970..1999
  • Brandon 2012-08-10 07:15
    What is the WTF with the kbb image? A lot of cars come with accessory packages that are known only by their package number, which is assigned to them by the manufacture.
  • faoileag 2012-08-10 07:23
    But, but, storing telephone numbers in doubles is the perfect solution for the uninitiated! The decimal point makes such a nice separator between exchange and number!!

    Actually, its just another aspect of the old fact that a lot of people *don't know how floating point numbers are handled by a computer*.

    A WTF, sure, but a common one. I do not want to know how many sums (of money) are stored in doubles, and in what software - it would probably keep me from sleeping at night.
  • ekolis 2012-08-10 07:27
    I thought "You don't exist. Go away!" is fatal only to fairies...
  • Some Jerk 2012-08-10 07:30
    Hasn't anyone considered the possibility that the person who received that error message really didn't exist and shouldn't be bothering that poor program to deal with non-existent persons?

    I think I am going to make a custom exception like "Damn You! You found my one weakness!" and throw it arbitrarily under the File > New option.
  • Cbuttius 2012-08-10 07:31
    The real WTF is that if you don't exist you can't do anything, not even go away.
  • faoileag 2012-08-10 07:31
    The 1193046 hrs 27 mins is actually MAXINT seconds - 76 (on a 32 bit system).
    I wonder how the 76 seconds got lost... did we have that many leap seconds since 1.1.1970?
  • Some Jerk 2012-08-10 07:31
    ekolis:
    I thought "You don't exist. Go away!" is fatal only to fairies...


    We live in a politically correct world... you are supposed to call them queers.
  • faoileag 2012-08-10 07:32
    And of course the real WTF is a Volkswagen Jetta.
  • Some Jerk 2012-08-10 07:33
    faoileag:
    But, but, storing telephone numbers in doubles is the perfect solution for the uninitiated! The decimal point makes such a nice separator between exchange and number!!

    Actually, its just another aspect of the old fact that a lot of people *don't know how floating point numbers are handled by a computer*.

    A WTF, sure, but a common one. I do not want to know how many sums (of money) are stored in doubles, and in what software - it would probably keep me from sleeping at night.

    yea... well, try storing telephone numbers in any numeric format in Excel! THERE is a WTF for you.
  • Cbuttius 2012-08-10 07:33
    the real WTF is what follows SMT and comes before S

  • Whiner 2012-08-10 07:36
    faoileag:
    a lot of people *don't know how floating point numbers are handled by a computer*.
    But why should we have to know anything? All that geeky stuff is supposed to be abstracted away! Computers should be designed so that the proudest most ignorant lamer can do just as well as a CS grad, if not better! This is really just another failure of everybody-but-me.
  • Bill P. Godfrey 2012-08-10 07:37
    Don't exist? Try thinking.
  • Cbuttius 2012-08-10 07:42

    BT include them in the inclusive mins of their packages.


    I'd have to see what the full package would be. Virgin have fibre-optic broadband and a good TV service. I subscribe to Sky Sports and no way am I ever going to use YouView so any broadband package that includes that as the TV service will never have me as a customer.

    And no mobile phone service offers inclusive 0845 numbers.
  • Larry 2012-08-10 07:51
    Bill P. Godfrey:
    Don't exist? Try thinking.
    I did once, but damn, that is so fucking painful. There must be another way.
  • Some Jerk 2012-08-10 07:53
    Whiner:
    faoileag:
    a lot of people *don't know how floating point numbers are handled by a computer*.
    But why should we have to know anything? All that geeky stuff is supposed to be abstracted away! Computers should be designed so that the proudest most ignorant lamer can do just as well as a CS grad, if not better! This is really just another failure of everybody-but-me.


    In my experience... ignorant programmers tend to do much better than CS grads... but then, I suppose I could incite a riot if I started ragging on college programmers. I'll do my best to keep my prejudices to myself.
  • Some Jerk 2012-08-10 07:55
    Larry:
    Bill P. Godfrey:
    Don't exist? Try thinking.
    I did once, but damn, that is so fucking painful. There must be another way.


    fart... and if you can smell it, then you can be reasonably certain that whomever caused the smell did in fact exist.
  • Uncle Slacky 2012-08-10 08:07
    I think the "8" may have been rounded up from the more likely value "7".
  • Alexander Ragtime Bell 2012-08-10 08:13
    "Who on earth stores phone numbers in a numeric field?"

    You'd be surprised. We got into the habit of doing a descending sort on phone numbers to be loaded into a machine we have, since otherwise the loading widget would conclude that they were 32-bit integers and fail when it got to (say) Massachusetts and a 617 area code. Internally, it is true, the machine stored them as VARCHARs.

    And don't get me started on the software that barfed when it hit a "house number" such as 125E....

    Captcha: odio, the ablative of odium...

    (And why is a guy named Papadimoulis giving us all these Latin captchas? Where's the Greek patriotism?)
  • Remy Porter 2012-08-10 08:19
    It depends on the kind of college programmers. I've seen a lot of colleges that basically try and make any IT-related degree a Vo-tec program. Then there are other schools that have a real CS program that actually teaches people things. There are a lot more of the former than the latter.
  • Lindsay M 2012-08-10 08:32
    >"Who on earth stores phone numbers in a numeric field?"

    Alas, I've seen it done several times.
  • Remy Porter 2012-08-10 08:45
    I used to train programmers, and my first lesson was: "I don't care what you call it- if you aren't going to use it in mathematical expressions, it isn't a number. PINs, phone numbers, zip codes, SSNs, etc.- they are all text."

    And then people would go and hand me programs that treated each one of them as an integer.
  • dkf 2012-08-10 08:48
    faoileag:
    But, but, storing telephone numbers in doubles is the perfect solution for the uninitiated! The decimal point makes such a nice separator between exchange and number!!
    What's even better is that it supports automatic anonymization for TDWTF!
  • moz 2012-08-10 08:49
    Cbuttius:
    The real WTF is that if you don't exist you can't do anything, not even go away.

    But then again, there's no harm in asking.
  • PedanticCurmudgeon 2012-08-10 08:50
    faoileag:
    But, but, storing telephone numbers in doubles is the perfect solution for the uninitiated! The decimal point makes such a nice separator between exchange and number!!

    Actually, its just another aspect of the old fact that a lot of people *don't know how floating point numbers are handled by a computer*.

    A WTF, sure, but a common one. I do not want to know how many sums (of money) are stored in doubles, and in what software - it would probably keep me from sleeping at night.
    You don't exist. Go away!
  • PedanticCurmudgeon 2012-08-10 08:55
    Relevant poem:
    Yesterday, upon the stair,
    I met a man who wasn’t there
    He wasn’t there again today
    I wish, I wish he’d go away...

    When I came home last night at three
    The man was waiting there for me
    But when I looked around the hall
    I couldn’t see him there at all!
    Go away, go away, don’t you come back any more!
    Go away, go away, and please don’t slam the door... (slam!)

    Last night I saw upon the stair
    A little man who wasn’t there
    He wasn’t there again today
    Oh, how I wish he’d go away
  • bhtooefr 2012-08-10 09:02
    And in 2006, VWs didn't have trim levels, they had packages on the Jetta.

    Not familiar with the packages on the 2.0Ts, but on the TDIs, it went something like this:

    Package 0 (no packages selected): Pleather, no trip computer, CD changer with MP3, ordinary HVAC
    Package 1: I think added sunroof and Sirius to Package 0
    Package 2: Added real leather, trip computer, climate control to Package 1

    I'd guess that Package 3 on a 2.0T would be HIDs or something like that, on top of Package 2.
  • Cbuttius 2012-08-10 09:05
    Uncle Slacky:
    I think the "8" may have been rounded up from the more likely value "7".


    Difficult to know as 0845 would round down to an 8 but some mobile numbers like mine which begins 0795 would round up to an 8.
  • Cbuttius 2012-08-10 09:09
    Remy Porter:
    I used to train programmers, and my first lesson was: "I don't care what you call it- if you aren't going to use it in mathematical expressions, it isn't a number. PINs, phone numbers, zip codes, SSNs, etc.- they are all text."

    And then people would go and hand me programs that treated each one of them as an integer.


    What would you consider enumerations to be?
  • FrostCat 2012-08-10 09:25
    One wonders why a simple POS terminal needs to be written in .Net. Seems like overkill. Reminds me of this great story: http://www.ganssle.com/articles/toastallessons.htm

    Representative line: " "With a computer our customer can load the bread the night before, program a finish time, and be presented with the perfect slice of toast when he awakens", Bob intoned as if reading from a script. "

    I wonder what toast made with stale bread tastes like?
  • Jon 2012-08-10 09:32
    Classic copy paste into Excel and mail merge - happens all the time.
  • FrostCat 2012-08-10 09:34
    Cbuttius:
    Remy Porter:
    I used to train programmers, and my first lesson was: "I don't care what you call it- if you aren't going to use it in mathematical expressions, it isn't a number. PINs, phone numbers, zip codes, SSNs, etc.- they are all text."

    And then people would go and hand me programs that treated each one of them as an integer.


    What would you consider enumerations to be?


    Opaque. You should almost never have to care about the value of a particular enum.
  • Bob 2012-08-10 09:35
    Who the hell leaves an $8.02 tip?
  • Some Jerk 2012-08-10 09:39
    FrostCat:
    One wonders why a simple POS terminal needs to be written in .Net. Seems like overkill.


    Perhaps writing it in javascript would make more sense to you.
  • Nagesh 2012-08-10 09:40
    Bob:
    Who the hell leaves an $8.02 tip?
    Someone who can't do (approx.) 15% without a calculator.
  • Nagesh 2012-08-10 09:41
    Lindsay M:
    >"Who on earth stores phone numbers in a numeric field?"

    Alas, I've seen it done several times.
    Yes, I've also been reading this site for a few weeks. :(
  • Some Jerk 2012-08-10 09:42
    I always enjoy giving a handfull of javascript tasks where javascript is guaranteed to infer a number when a string is meant, and the other way around. I was typically making the same point that you were, and reinforcing the value of strongly typed languages as well.
  • golddog 2012-08-10 09:44
    Neil's WTF presumably means he won't make any verizon phone calls in August 2017.

    Hope that means he's only gotten a different provider rather than he's dead.
  • RichP 2012-08-10 09:47
    The really hot girl I met at the bar last night works at MSDN tech support? Cool!
  • Chelloveck 2012-08-10 09:51
    Can Chris really prove that he exists? Come on, this one's been bugging philosophers for millenia now! If Chris has an air-tight proof he really needs to publish.
  • Some Jerk 2012-08-10 09:52
    RichP:
    The really hot girl I met at the bar last night works at MSDN tech support? Cool!


    I wonder if she can get an employee discount on a premium subscription. If she could save some $5 or $10 per year... that would be neat :p
  • Chelloveck 2012-08-10 09:53
    Nagesh:
    Bob:
    Who the hell leaves an $8.02 tip?
    Someone who can't do (approx.) 15% without a calculator.

    But math is hard!
  • QJo 2012-08-10 09:55
    Some Jerk:
    faoileag:
    But, but, storing telephone numbers in doubles is the perfect solution for the uninitiated! The decimal point makes such a nice separator between exchange and number!!

    Actually, its just another aspect of the old fact that a lot of people *don't know how floating point numbers are handled by a computer*.

    A WTF, sure, but a common one. I do not want to know how many sums (of money) are stored in doubles, and in what software - it would probably keep me from sleeping at night.

    yea... well, try storing telephone numbers in any numeric format in Excel! THERE is a WTF for you.


    A similar issue ...

    I'm configuring automatic regression tests, and am using Selenium. In order to test that a field holds today's date, I am attempting to store dd/mm/yyyy and dd-mm-yyyy (non-US system, bear with me) into variables in Selenium. But whatever I do, it *automatically* converts the numbers I enter as strings into integers, and evaluates the resulting integer so that, for example, 10-08-2012 becomes -2010. It then complains that the (correctly-filled) field containing "10-08-2012" does not match "-2010".

    I have so far been unable to get anyone on any on the discussion forums at Selenium to acknowledge the bug.
  • Andrew 2012-08-10 10:02
    faoileag:
    I do not want to know how many sums (of money) are stored in doubles, and in what software - it would probably keep me from sleeping at night.


    Then be glad you aren't working for the major insurance company I'm at. Every money value is a double. EVERY. ONE.
  • QJo 2012-08-10 10:05
    Remy Porter:
    I used to train programmers, and my first lesson was: "I don't care what you call it- if you aren't going to use it in mathematical expressions, it isn't a number. PINs, phone numbers, zip codes, SSNs, etc.- they are all text."

    And then people would go and hand me programs that treated each one of them as an integer.

    ... for which, canonically, you failed them.
  • Scott 2012-08-10 10:08
    I would have left my name off the receipt too if I was so cheap as to leave exactly 15%.
  • Some Jerk 2012-08-10 10:08
    QJo:
    Remy Porter:
    I used to train programmers, and my first lesson was: "I don't care what you call it- if you aren't going to use it in mathematical expressions, it isn't a number. PINs, phone numbers, zip codes, SSNs, etc.- they are all text."

    And then people would go and hand me programs that treated each one of them as an integer.

    ... for which, canonically, you failed them.

    nah... just point and laugh when the program fails horribly.
  • Cbuttius 2012-08-10 10:11
    Money as a double can work well, and then you round off.

    You have to pay interest at 0.3% this month on a debt you have, the debt being in dollars (or sterling/euros etc) and cents (pence etc.). So you're going to get fractions and then probably what you pay is rounded off to the nearest penny. Exact fractions are not really that importantly relevant.

    Even when the amount is noticeable, if you are dealing with an amount like $10,000 you probably don't care about 10 cents above or below that amount so even float would be accurate enough.

    It only looks silly when it gets printed out as an amount like $3.4899999995 instead of $3.49

    But then if you are dealing with 1193406 hours you probably wouldn't care about 27 minutes either.
  • ochrist 2012-08-10 10:12
    Here's a free tip for users of TDWTF:
    Try pressing left ALT when you use print screen.
  • Some Jerk 2012-08-10 10:13
    Cbuttius:
    Money as a double can work well, and then you round off.

    You have to pay interest at 0.3% this month on a debt you have, the debt being in dollars (or sterling/euros etc) and cents (pence etc.). So you're going to get fractions and then probably what you pay is rounded off to the nearest penny. Exact fractions are not really that importantly relevant.

    Even when the amount is noticeable, if you are dealing with an amount like $10,000 you probably don't care about 10 cents above or below that amount so even float would be accurate enough.

    It only looks silly when it gets printed out as an amount like $3.4899999995 instead of $3.49



    I am going to start printing all of my checks that way :p

    CAPTCHA: decet - the worst form of deception
  • mott555 2012-08-10 10:16
    Cbuttius:

    Even when the amount is noticeable, if you are dealing with an amount like $10,000 you probably don't care about 10 cents above or below that amount so even float would be accurate enough.


    Would you feel the same way if your bank treated your accounts that way?
  • Anonymous 2012-08-10 10:17
    Unfortunately, that doesn't work for everything. what about primary keys? Those aren't used in any mathematical manipulation, but is commonly an INT.
  • QJo 2012-08-10 10:19
    Bob:
    Who the hell leaves an $8.02 tip?


    Someone whose total is, say, $51.98? $61.98? Wot-EVV-ah.
  • Rodnas 2012-08-10 10:21
    i dare you to choose the 136.102 year option and sit behind your screen to test if works correctly.
  • Yazeran 2012-08-10 10:29
    Anonymous:
    Unfortunately, that doesn't work for everything. what about primary keys? Those aren't used in any mathematical manipulation, but is commonly an INT.

    Yep, but PK should never be based on user input! (should be autogenerated, either through a sequence or a GUID)

    Yours Yazeran

    Plsn: To go to Mars one day with a hammer
  • Anymouse 2012-08-10 10:32
    I used to train programmers, and my first lesson was: "I don't care what you call it- if you aren't going to use it in mathematical expressions, it isn't a number. PINs, phone numbers, zip codes, SSNs, etc.- they are all text."

    And then people would go and hand me programs that treated each one of them as an integer.

    I don't use PIDs, TIDs, UIDs, GIDs or inodes in mathematical expressions. A set of numbers is a convenience, not a requirement. IOW, you're an idiot. Treating unique strings of numbers as integers is a perfectly valid constraint in the right context.
  • Craig 2012-08-10 10:50
    Brandon:
    What is the WTF with the kbb image? A lot of cars come with accessory packages that are known only by their package number, which is assigned to them by the manufacture.


    Agreed. When I was getting the value of my Miata last year it shows Premium Package 1 and Premium Package 2. Those were the actual names of the packages from Mazda.
  • Reinier 2012-08-10 11:07
    I've seen this message on SunOS 4, so it's older than Linux.
  • vegas 2012-08-10 11:25
    Someone who is meticulous about only giving exactly 15%. You would think that they would take it off the pre-tax total if they were that anal though.
  • Anon 2012-08-10 11:34
    FrostCat:

    I wonder what toast made with stale bread tastes like?


    Same as regular toast. One reason to toast bread is because it's stale.
  • David F. Skoll 2012-08-10 11:51
    You don't exist is an old UNIX error message: http://www.seebs.net/ops/ibm/cranky37.html
  • zelmak 2012-08-10 12:16
    Cbuttius:
    The real WTF is that if you don't exist you can't do anything, not even go away.


    And who would be there to click the Okay button?
  • Jack 2012-08-10 12:21
    zelmak:
    Cbuttius:
    The real WTF is that if you don't exist you can't do anything, not even go away.


    And who would be there to click the Okay button?
    If you don't exist, you can't click the button, so the message stays there and the computer is right. If you click OK, you've proven the computer wrong, and it sheepishly withdraws its ridiculous assertion.
  • C-Derb 2012-08-10 12:54
    Bob:
    Who the hell leaves an $8.02 tip?

    Someone who thinks leaving just $8.00 would make them look cheap.
  • Carlos M 2012-08-10 13:03
    I knew that Remy would contribute something good at some point.
  • Some Jerk 2012-08-10 13:07
    Cbuttius:

    Even when the amount is noticeable, if you are dealing with an amount like $10,000 you probably don't care about 10 cents above or below that amount so even float would be accurate enough.

    That general line of thinking has been exploited to generate tens of millions of dollars worth of deposits by capturing the rounded difference of banking transactions. Even $0.001-$0.0049 at a time managed to generate such a massive amount of money in a short period of time when acrewed over millions and millions of transactions... which can take place easily inside of a few days with regard to banks.

    There is a second problem with your theory as well. The problem that occurs with a lack of precision becomes is something like a plague. It doesn't grow incrementally, but instead proportionally. As the number of people infected with a plague increases, so does the rate at which people are infected. The same goes for code that cannot handle numbers precisely. We may be dealing with a few cents difference now, but over time a few cents difference can throw the ledger off by more than the $10,000 that you rounded up or down to.
  • Gurth 2012-08-10 13:16
    One of the WTFs here is not pressing the spacebar after ⇧⌘4.
  • Wonk 2012-08-10 13:47
    Cbuttius:
    Money as a double can work well, and then you round off.

    You have to pay interest at 0.3% this month on a debt you have, the debt being in dollars (or sterling/euros etc) and cents (pence etc.). So you're going to get fractions and then probably what you pay is rounded off to the nearest penny. Exact fractions are not really that importantly relevant.

    Even when the amount is noticeable, if you are dealing with an amount like $10,000 you probably don't care about 10 cents above or below that amount so even float would be accurate enough.

    It only looks silly when it gets printed out as an amount like $3.4899999995 instead of $3.49

    But then if you are dealing with 1193406 hours you probably wouldn't care about 27 minutes either.

    Obligatory Superman III/Office Space fractional cents reference.
  • C-Derb 2012-08-10 13:47
    Some Jerk:
    Cbuttius:

    Even when the amount is noticeable, if you are dealing with an amount like $10,000 you probably don't care about 10 cents above or below that amount so even float would be accurate enough.

    That general line of thinking has been exploited to generate tens of millions of dollars worth of deposits by capturing the rounded difference of banking transactions. Even $0.001-$0.0049 at a time managed to generate such a massive amount of money in a short period of time when acrewed over millions and millions of transactions... which can take place easily inside of a few days with regard to banks.

    There is a second problem with your theory as well. The problem that occurs with a lack of precision becomes is something like a plague. It doesn't grow incrementally, but instead proportionally. As the number of people infected with a plague increases, so does the rate at which people are infected. The same goes for code that cannot handle numbers precisely. We may be dealing with a few cents difference now, but over time a few cents difference can throw the ledger off by more than the $10,000 that you rounded up or down to.

    Ah! Yeah. It's just we're putting new coversheets on all the TPS reports before they go out now. So if you could go ahead and try to remember to do that from now on, that'd be great. All right!
  • crism 2012-08-10 13:49
    Bob:
    Who the hell leaves an $8.02 tip?


    Apparently Y. Li does. Also apparently having a very short name is the same as being anonymous, at least here in WTFland.
  • C-Derb 2012-08-10 13:49
    Wonk:
    Cbuttius:
    Money as a double can work well, and then you round off.

    You have to pay interest at 0.3% this month on a debt you have, the debt being in dollars (or sterling/euros etc) and cents (pence etc.). So you're going to get fractions and then probably what you pay is rounded off to the nearest penny. Exact fractions are not really that importantly relevant.

    Even when the amount is noticeable, if you are dealing with an amount like $10,000 you probably don't care about 10 cents above or below that amount so even float would be accurate enough.

    It only looks silly when it gets printed out as an amount like $3.4899999995 instead of $3.49

    But then if you are dealing with 1193406 hours you probably wouldn't care about 27 minutes either.

    Obligatory Superman III/Office Space fractional cents reference.
    Dammit! You beat me by a couple of seconds.
  • big picture thinker 2012-08-10 14:02
    Some Jerk:
    yea... well, try storing telephone numbers in any numeric format in Excel! THERE is a WTF for you.


    You put a single quote in the cell before typing a number (or date). It will cause it to be treated as text and not changed to another format.

    This isn't a hack; it's by design -- the single quote will not show up in the cell unless you click on it and look in the formula bar to see the underlying content of the cell.
  • Coyne 2012-08-10 14:10
    I suppose "Chris" plans to say, "I think therefore I am."

    Sorry but that's not evidence ... or proof. I think he's completely out of luck.
  • Matt 2012-08-10 14:11
    The last one, BadImageFormatException, can happen when an AnyCPU assembly / program attempts to load an x86 assembly / plugin. That's why the Visual Studio 2010 project templates default to x86 now rather than AnyCPU.

    http://blogs.msdn.com/b/rmbyers/archive/2009/06/8/anycpu-exes-are-usually-more-trouble-then-they-re-worth.aspx
  • Nagesh 2012-08-10 14:33

    Meanie xcode make Nagesh mother crying.
  • Some Jerk 2012-08-10 14:56
    big picture thinker:
    Some Jerk:
    yea... well, try storing telephone numbers in any numeric format in Excel! THERE is a WTF for you.


    You put a single quote in the cell before typing a number (or date). It will cause it to be treated as text and not changed to another format.

    This isn't a hack; it's by design -- the single quote will not show up in the cell unless you click on it and look in the formula bar to see the underlying content of the cell.


    I know... but what I found interesting was the actual result of the conversion, not the fact that it happened.
  • Some Jerk 2012-08-10 15:15
    though... 2010 has fixed that... so it isn't funky anymore. used to be... when you put it in... you would get some number that looked nothing like the number you originated with.
  • Remy Porter 2012-08-10 15:20
    Anymouse:
    I don't use PIDs, TIDs, UIDs, GIDs or inodes in mathematical expressions. A set of numbers is a convenience, not a requirement. IOW, you're an idiot. Treating unique strings of numbers as integers is a perfectly valid constraint in the right context.


    Oh, you tried so hard to be clever, but you failed. Don't feel too bad, you've gotta be used to it at this point.

    PIDs, UIDs, GIDs, etc. are also not numbers. But they are also not text, so they do fall outside of the oversimplified statement I would make to aspiring programmers. You caught me out! I oversimplified something so that it was appropriate to the audience!

    Anyway, these aren't numbers or text- they're unique identifiers. Their actual datatype is utterly irrelevant, since the only comparison you'll ever do is going to be one of equality. When data-type doesn't matter, integral types are the best choice since they allow good control of how much memory you use for them.

    They are still not numbers, in any real sense.
  • da Doctah 2012-08-10 15:24
    FrostCat:
    "With a computer our customer can load the bread the night before, program a finish time, and be presented with the perfect slice of toast when he awakens", Bob intoned as if reading from a script.

    I wonder what toast made with stale bread tastes like?
    I don't know. Every morning I wake up to find the toaster empty and the cat asleep with crumbs around him.
  • Friedrice the Great 2012-08-10 15:29
    Bob:
    Who the hell leaves an $8.02 tip?

    I like to leave tips that produce whole dollar totals.
  • Some Jerk 2012-08-10 15:31
    me too.
  • Jeff 2012-08-10 15:55
    crism:
    Bob:
    Who the hell leaves an $8.02 tip?


    Apparently Y. Li does. Also apparently having a very short name is the same as being anonymous, at least here in WTFland.
    Y. Li Coyote, perhaps?
  • Coyne 2012-08-10 16:03
    Remy Porter:
    I used to train programmers, and my first lesson was: "I don't care what you call it- if you aren't going to use it in mathematical expressions, it isn't a number. PINs, phone numbers, zip codes, SSNs, etc.- they are all text."

    And then people would go and hand me programs that treated each one of them as an integer.


    That old "if we store it as an integer we can save one byte" optimization habit just won't go away, will it?
  • ILackedAles 2012-08-10 16:12
    Actually, since "Y. Li" sounds Asian, my first thought was that they just added a couple of cents to change the last two digits. "44" is unlucky for Chinese because the word for 4 sounds similar to the word for death.

    However, it's too close to an exact 15% to be cultural..and I guess they were too cheap to make it the lucky "88"

    captcha: amet - the word to follow "lorem ipsum dolor sit"
  • Tim 2012-08-10 16:13
    Coyne:
    Remy Porter:
    I used to train programmers, and my first lesson was: "I don't care what you call it- if you aren't going to use it in mathematical expressions, it isn't a number. PINs, phone numbers, zip codes, SSNs, etc.- they are all text."

    And then people would go and hand me programs that treated each one of them as an integer.


    That old "if we store it as an integer we can save one byte" optimization habit just won't go away, will it?
    I came up with my own "inner platform" that supported data types with any number of bits. If you only need 3 bits why consume 4 or 8? There were functions to read or write any data element. Yeah sure it was slow but these were card jobs that only ran at night anyway and damn was my memory footprint small!

    You're not a real man if you didn't write one of these too.
  • foo 2012-08-10 17:17
    Anymouse:
    I used to train programmers, and my first lesson was: "I don't care what you call it- if you aren't going to use it in mathematical expressions, it isn't a number. PINs, phone numbers, zip codes, SSNs, etc.- they are all text."

    And then people would go and hand me programs that treated each one of them as an integer.

    I don't use PIDs, TIDs, UIDs, GIDs or inodes in mathematical expressions. A set of numbers is a convenience, not a requirement. IOW, you're an idiot. Treating unique strings of numbers as integers is a perfectly valid constraint in the right context.
    Your file system certainly uses inodes in mathematical expressions.
  • foo 2012-08-10 17:18
    Remy Porter:
    I used to train programmers, and my first lesson was: "I don't care what you call it- if you aren't going to use it in mathematical expressions, it isn't a number. PINs, phone numbers, zip codes, SSNs, etc.- they are all text."
    So pointers are not numbers, except in C? :)
  • nomous 2012-08-10 17:21
    Remy Porter:
    I used to train programmers, and my first lesson was: "I don't care what you call it- if you aren't going to use it in mathematical expressions, it isn't a number. PINs, phone numbers, zip codes, SSNs, etc.- they are all text."

    And then people would go and hand me programs that treated each one of them as an integer.
    Should just store them ass bit fields
  • nomous 2012-08-10 17:22
    nomous:
    Remy Porter:
    I used to train programmers, and my first lesson was: "I don't care what you call it- if you aren't going to use it in mathematical expressions, it isn't a number. PINs, phone numbers, zip codes, SSNs, etc.- they are all text."

    And then people would go and hand me programs that treated each one of them as an integer.
    Should just store them as bit fields
    OOPS...
  • aggro 2012-08-10 17:27
    Some Jerk:
    ekolis:
    I thought "You don't exist. Go away!" is fatal only to fairies...


    We live in a politically correct world... you are supposed to call them queers.
    soTinkerbell was a queer? What about the queer godmother in shrek?
  • miler 2012-08-10 17:28
    Whiner:
    faoileag:
    a lot of people *don't know how floating point numbers are handled by a computer*.
    But why should we have to know anything? All that geeky stuff is supposed to be abstracted away! Computers should be designed so that the proudest most ignorant lamer can do just as well as a CS grad, if not better! This is really just another failure of everybody-but-me.
    why do I suddenly think "ESB"
  • Booger 2012-08-10 17:30
    Some Jerk:
    Whiner:
    faoileag:
    a lot of people *don't know how floating point numbers are handled by a computer*.
    But why should we have to know anything? All that geeky stuff is supposed to be abstracted away! Computers should be designed so that the proudest most ignorant lamer can do just as well as a CS grad, if not better! This is really just another failure of everybody-but-me.


    In my experience... ignorant programmers tend to do much better than CS grads... but then, I suppose I could incite a riot if I started ragging on college programmers. I'll do my best to keep my prejudices to myself.
    Insert the old bit about I've seen shit Grads and I've seen quality peole without any qualification, I've also seen the opposite.

    I'm one of the best, but I think I would have been even if I hadn't gone to Uni. That said, the piece of paper did help me land my first job....
  • milli 2012-08-10 17:43
    Some Jerk:
    Cbuttius:

    Even when the amount is noticeable, if you are dealing with an amount like $10,000 you probably don't care about 10 cents above or below that amount so even float would be accurate enough.

    That general line of thinking has been exploited to generate tens of millions of dollars worth of deposits by capturing the rounded difference of banking transactions. Even $0.001-$0.0049 at a time managed to generate such a massive amount of money in a short period of time when acrewed over millions and millions of transactions... which can take place easily inside of a few days with regard to banks.

    There is a second problem with your theory as well. The problem that occurs with a lack of precision becomes is something like a plague. It doesn't grow incrementally, but instead proportionally. As the number of people infected with a plague increases, so does the rate at which people are infected. The same goes for code that cannot handle numbers precisely. We may be dealing with a few cents difference now, but over time a few cents difference can throw the ledger off by more than the $10,000 that you rounded up or down to.
    and anyway, the issue with using numbers for calculation isn't so much the issue of rounding as the issue of inaccurate representation
  • Silverhill 2012-08-10 18:49
    nomous:
    Should just store them ass bit fields
    nomous:
    Should just store them as bit fields
    OOPS...
    That one bit you on the ass, eh? <g>


    One would think that the submitter's name would be at the bottom of the receipt, but well...
    But it is! It was either "Y. Li", or his seventeenth cousin (eleven times removed), "Could not load file or assembly 'ICU4NET, Version=1.0.3891.39017, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null' or one of its dependencies. An attempt was made to load a program with an incorrect format." (That cousin must be related to Nicholas If-Jesus-Christ-Had-Not-Died-For-Thee-Thou-Hadst-Been-Damned Barebon.)
  • ManxBug 2012-08-10 19:23
    bhtooefr:
    And in 2006, VWs didn't have trim levels, they had packages on the Jetta.

    Not familiar with the packages on the 2.0Ts, but on the TDIs, it went something like this:

    Package 0 (no packages selected): Pleather, no trip computer, CD changer with MP3, ordinary HVAC
    Package 1: I think added sunroof and Sirius to Package 0
    Package 2: Added real leather, trip computer, climate control to Package 1

    I'd guess that Package 3 on a 2.0T would be HIDs or something like that, on top of Package 2.


    Package 3 is probably a lot of high end options.
    3 driver memory seat settings
    Navigation
    HIDs (as you said)

    Basically the current Tech package.
  • Lgp 2012-08-10 21:41
    At least in SVR2 (System V Release 2) the "You're not here. Go away!" message occurred when you tried to run a command needing access to another terminal (e.g., "talk") while you had no entry in the wtmp file. Which could happen, of course, if you happened to be on a system being developer as a secure UNIX system which didn't allow writing to that file. Which might also have been an Apple-based system. Ahem.
  • Craig 2012-08-10 21:58
    I've gotten the "You don't exist, go away!" message many times over the years on Linux systems. A foolproof way seems to be to su to an account that was never meant to be logged into.
  • Cheong 2012-08-10 22:05
    "If there was only an option between 5 hours and 136.102 years this would be perfect!" writes Alan.

    I would be more impressed if this option is shown on the battery side, which implies the battery can power the laptop without running out for 136.102 years.

    I swear if such battery exist, I'd urge my UPS provider to use it, and then replace all my UPS with the new model.
  • iMalc 2012-08-11 01:05
    But if I don't exist, then how can I go away?!
  • Dave 2012-08-11 01:27
    asdf:
    "You Don't Exist. Go Away!" is much older than that, login command from linux's [...].


    Sheesh, first you say "much older" and then you mention Linux... this dates to at least Unix Version 7 from 1979 (at which point Linus was nine years old), and possibly before that.
  • Should Be Obvious 2012-08-11 04:31
    The credit card slip is the "Customer Copy" or "Duplicate". The total was written by the customer for the customer's own records. The actual "Store Copy" likely has the tip amount and the signature and is probably with the store.
  • YBM 2012-08-11 13:52
    I got such message (you don't exit go away) on SunOS 20 years ago when NSS (Name Service Switch) were broken in some way, I could authenticate anyway (so PAM or whatever SunOS used was ok) but almost any command run from the Shell complained.

    I guess you could get it on Linux/BSD/Modern UNIXES quite easily when messing with /etc/nsswitch.conf
  • dogmatic 2012-08-11 16:48
    You don't know what an options package is? Maybe you should have someone else help with selling/buying a car.
  • Brendan 2012-08-12 08:32
    Remy Porter:
    I used to train programmers, and my first lesson was: "I don't care what you call it- if you aren't going to use it in mathematical expressions, it isn't a number. PINs, phone numbers, zip codes, SSNs, etc.- they are all text."

    And then people would go and hand me programs that treated each one of them as an integer.


    Computers are incapable of storing "text". The closest options are bitmap pictures, vector data (e.g. describing pen movements), or (more common) a series of character identifiers.

    Are you sure you didn't want these PINs, phone numbers, zip codes, etc stored as "a series of (integer) character identifiers"?

    If yes, did you specify which standard the series of (integer) character identifiers should conform to (e.g. ASCII, EBCDIC, UTF-8, etc)?

    If no, then you didn't preclude storing the series of (integer) character identifiers in a compressed format. Compressed formats include storing "digit only" data as BCD, or using an even more efficient compression method like "compressed_identifier_sequence = digit1 * 1000 + digit2 * 100 + digit3 * 10 + digit4 * 1".

    Please don't blame your students when you make the mistake of thinking their "compressed series of character identifiers" is a number when it's not.
  • Michael 2012-08-12 17:00
    I thought – everyone should be able to see such an awesome error message once in a while. So here it is – your very own fatal App :–)

    http://moapp.tumblr.com/post/29285592807/fatal-the-app
  • noob 2012-08-13 01:20
    A WTF, sure, but a common one. I do not want to know how many sums (of money) are stored in double

    I unterstand why not use int/double for phone or things you wont do arithmetic operations with. But whats the problem with using double for money?
  • Cbuttius 2012-08-13 04:43
    noob:
    A WTF, sure, but a common one. I do not want to know how many sums (of money) are stored in double

    I unterstand why not use int/double for phone or things you wont do arithmetic operations with. But whats the problem with using double for money?


    The "issue" of using a double for money is generally based on the fact that amounts are stored with fractional parts, often in hundreds, which cannot be represented exactly by a double.

    So if an amount is say $1.30 then because in reality it is stored in hexadecimal, there will be rounding errors.

    In reality you get about 15 significant figures of precision which means only when you are dealing with amounts in trillions will the pennies start to become insignificant.

    The issue I raised is that money is not calculated simply by adding and subtracting amounts in pennies but there are all kinds of compound interest being applied to money held in accounts, as well as tax deductions to be paid, which causes amounts to be rounded anyway.

    The issue only normally gets noticed when one tries to print the amount as a string and doesn't set a format string properly (formatted printing seems to have been managed rather badly since people had issues with printf. Yes, there were issues with printf but the solutions often lost the plot a bit). Anyway if you print the double representation of 1.30 "naturally" you will possibly get something that looks like 1.299999999975 which looks silly.

    It is a bigger issue if you multiply the amount by 100 then convert to an int as you could well get 129 through failure to adjust for rounding, but that would be your error, rather than initially storing the amount as a double.
  • Mike Dimmick 2012-08-13 10:43
    noob:
    A WTF, sure, but a common one. I do not want to know how many sums (of money) are stored in double

    I unterstand why not use int/double for phone or things you wont do arithmetic operations with. But whats the problem with using double for money?


    'double' is binary floating point. That means it can only store numbers that are a sum of negative powers of two - one half, one quarter, one eighth, one sixteenth and so on to the number of bits that can be stored in the 'mantissa' part of the variable.

    Unfortunately one-tenth is not expressible precisely as any finite sum of negative powers of two. You can get close approximations but they're always a little off. As the quantities before the point get larger, the amount of precision left to represent the decimal part gets smaller and the representation gets further away from the correct value. The only 100th amounts that are accurately representible in binary floating point are 0.25, 0.50 and 0.75.

    If it helps, think of how one-third or one-seventh are represented in decimal notation. We have to add 'recurring' markers to indicate that we actually need infinite precision to represent these values.
  • Some Damn Yank 2012-08-13 20:16
    Remy Porter:
    I used to train programmers, and my first lesson was: "I don't care what you call it- if you aren't going to use it in mathematical expressions, it isn't a number. PINs, phone numbers, zip codes, SSNs, etc.- they are all text."

    And then people would go and hand me programs that treated each one of them as an integer.


    I'm on a project right now to fix our SSN fields that suppress leading zeros (ex: 034-45-1234). That's right, they're stored as numbers, and by default we display numbers with suppressed leading zeros.
  • dtobias 2012-08-17 11:39
    People where I work will constantly open perfectly good CSV data files in Excel and save them out from there, in the process mangling account numbers, phone numbers, package tracking numbers, etc., into exponential notation, and stripping leading zeroes from zip codes.
  • Pecos Bill 2012-08-17 23:49
    Remy Porter:
    I used to train programmers, and my first lesson was: "I don't care what you call it- if you aren't going to use it in mathematical expressions, it isn't a number. PINs, phone numbers, zip codes, SSNs, etc.- they are all text.
    Dex, the Yellow Pages for 14 states, stored their phone numbers in three numbered types (can't remember which kind though). One for each segment. Doing so DOES guarantee that you're not storing a non-numeric value. And, no, that wasn't their downfall. Mismanagement was.
  • Pecos Bill 2012-08-18 00:01
    Gurth:
    One of the WTFs here is not pressing the spacebar after ⇧⌘4.
    Or using the utility Grab (but your/my method is faster)
  • Merlin 2012-08-20 20:38
    Bob:
    Who the hell leaves an $8.02 tip?

    This is the comment I was looking for. It was the tip amount that made me say WTF, the rest it just the normal fair around here.
  • Ol' Bob 2012-08-24 07:10
    Some Jerk:
    Larry:
    Bill P. Godfrey:
    Don't exist? Try thinking.
    I did once, but damn, that is so fucking painful. There must be another way.


    fart... and if you can smell it, then you can be reasonably certain that whomever caused the smell did in fact exist.


    Ah...but that only indicates that your internal non-beingness is in fact quite well integrated. Only years and years of very expensive therapy will enable you to understand, at last, that you do *not* exist, and that your belief in the smelliness of your own farts is in fact merely a manefestation of the internal consistenciness of your delusions of existence. If that's too complicated to understand, let's try a simple thought experiment. Be the ball. Stop thinking. Let things happen. Just...be...the ball. And remember - the Zen philosopher Basho once wrote "A flute with no holes is not a flute, and a donut with no hole is a Danish". He's a funny guy...

    (CAPTCHA: duis - pidgin Latin for "be the ball")
  • Bugmenot 2012-10-06 05:17
    The error in git comes from SSH. Surely that's also where the error in TFA comes from.

    Your theory about syslog makes no sense.
  • Richard A. O'Keefe 2013-01-30 00:10
    One of my first jobs was to clean up a lot of RSTS/E Basic someone else had
    left behind. He stored part numbers as single precision floats. Nine-digit
    part numbers.