Comment On Could You Explain Programming Please

(sorry about my english)
When I tell people I meet I make software, they allways end asking me what kind of computers I sell.

Sounds like your sister did not marry him for his intelligence.

C:\>do taxes

It's funny, yes, but it'd be a hair funnier if Inform 7 didn't exist. (Yes, the language exists. Yes, people use it. Yes, they think it's fantastic. Not my thing, but, well, a thing. And not even a "This is a programming language for people scared by semicolons" language; it's a language based on a relational calculus that is easier to express in english-like phrases than in stuff that looks like code.)

Oh. My. God. THANK YOU. I laughed so much at this I was "breath laughing" (you know, when you run out of air but you're still laughing?). I'm still grinning. Oh, gosh. What a wonderful laugh. I feel so much happier than I did before reading this.

My partner thinks all I do is push "buttons" ugh!

That brings back memories. My friend's cousin once cornered me at a party and asked me to write down everything I knew about Lisp. I wish he'd asked about COBOL, I know piss-all about COBOL.

that's not even ambition... if he had ambition he would have tried at least to get a book and read it. for example, he wouldn't have skipped to the back of the java book.

See; this illustrates why programming is not as easy as some might like it to be:

Konamiman:

Well, nothing stops you from creating a program like this:

void main()
{
CreateFootballStadiumAndFootballPlayers();
StartTheGameWhenUserPressesSpacebar();
MakePlayersHaveRedShirtsAndWhiteSocks();
}

Oh yes, you will have to define these three methods an put some code on them, but that's a minor issue. X-D

Even in that code there's a bug: shouldn't the players put their uniforms on before the game starts?

Maurits:

Anglocentrism is ugly.

But it's damn practical. Same deal with URLs - would you like to figure out how to type a vowel with an accent, knowing that clever domain squatters and phishers have already registered every variation on the name using accents?

Besides, the CodeSODs would be a lot less funny if nobody understood the variable and function names. bool_да_нет_неизвестно just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Watson:

Even in that code there's a bug: shouldn't the players put their uniforms on before the game starts?

What about having two distinct teams? If they're all red and white, how do you figure out who the opponent is? ;)

They don't have pants on, either.

mmmmm, lovely bit that.
my personal favorite starts out with: "you know computers, right?", when all they really know is i work for a high tech company (managing linux engineers).
the first sound out my mouth is alway "well, yessssssssssssssssss".
-nn

Mythokia:

Usually when someone starts the conversation with "are you good with computers?", I expect it to go downhill.

It's even worse when they've called the PC Helpline and they start with that question

Phleabo:

cthulhu:

Da' Man:

Just out of curiosity: how would you implement a Singleton pattern in VB4?

VB4 doesn't allow mistakes like that.

Sadly, there's a bit of a good point there. Of course, that's probably outweighed by the countless thousands of other mistakes VB4 will let you make.

All of the 20+ languages I've touched in my life have their own peculiar brand of idiocy built in somewhere in the jungle of features. VB, Java, Logo, Forth, all variants of assembler, C, C++ (tho that one has a bit more than the average), SQL, Intercal...

More important, he forgot to say "please" at the end...

I try to think of people who are smart yet have wronged me in some way, the list being extremely small, and I send these people directly to them.

To bad he wasn't given a book on Javascript. He could quickly run this code right in a browser.

eval("Morph the brother-in-law into something cool");

I drink for the time when we can "program" with "Go get me a beer!".

"Morph the screen into something cool" is actually almost how my first attempt at programming went when I was 8 or so (actually it was "boat. boat to beach"). Then my dad gave me these magazines with code listings in basic. It really did get the ball rolling for me.

Right on, man. I usually drift out of the conversation and stop paying attention as soon as I hear that phrase...

proko:

I think that he's biggest mistake was answering yes to a question "Him: Hey, you're good with computers right?". It's almost a real WTF, because when you hear that question, you probably must run. At least I always do so.

I haven't answered that specific question honestly or directly in...hmmm...call it 16 years?

apetrelli:

This kind of people usually think that Word has been created by God.

Oh yeah? I bet you are one of those atheists that think that programs "evolve" and are subject to "natural selection". Can't you just accept that an intelligent designer makes programs?

Ah, but alas; it was written in python!


:)

Mythokia:

Usually when someone starts the conversation with "are you good with computers?", I expect it to go downhill.

That's why I always answer that question with "No, sorry. I break them by accident all the time.". You have no idea how much pain and suffering it's saved in the long run.

WhiskeyJack:

fred flintstone:

"Create football stadium and football players. Start the game when user presses spacebar. Make players have red shirts and white socks."

one day this will happen. that's what I'm aiming for anyway. proper natural language programming. tasty!

Works fine for me. Is your Holodeck broken?

Oi! Fred's not supposed to know he's in a holodeck.

Their comments, as inane as they are, do point out a limiting factor of our existing languages: their expressiveness. Can't wait for a decade or two to pass by so that we can actually issue stupidly vague full-sentence orders and the computer will assemble the intended code.

This reminds me of when i was at school, i never had a computer at home, and only had a few months playing with the ones at school (before actual PCS with windows, they had old acorns)

this kid from one of my classes asks me what he has to do to get a job in creating computer games, he had no idea what part of creating them he wanted to go into, but liked the idea of programming them.

now back in the day, i didnt know a lot about the languages that the Play Station 1 used.

however i tried pointing him in the right direction, of the web, and things like C++. letting him know hes best chances were by going to uni.

i also told him, that he should even go to the local libary, and speak to our IT teacher. he couldn't be bothered, and just wanted me to tell him what he had to do.

his answer, "cant i just do it on the Play Station its self. isn't that how it works?"

he didn't really want to go down the who PC root of programming, and learning anything complex. and to tell you the truth he wasnt the brightest crayon in the box, in many areas including, logic, math, problem solving, ect.

he asked this same question many times, normally at lest once a month, i cant remember how i got him to stop now, i think he gave up.

Anonymous:

Must... Not... Bash... Head... Against... Keyboard...

I swear, most of the people using computers don't need them at all.

That, unfortunately, is the satori for today.

void CreateFootballStadiumAndFootballPlayers()
{
for(;;)
{
System.out.println("HEY LOOK AT ME I CAN PROGRAM!");
}
}

That should work mighty dandy

Ubersoldat:

DOA:

Staszek:

I was studying Computer Science, he was starting a career in the army.
Hearing I am a student, he almost involuntarily sneared. Which is a common habit among lower-grade soldiers (ones that don't need to graduate university) in the army.
But not only me being a student made him feel pity for me. CS students made him feel double-pity.

I have been both a CS student and a soldier and I don't get it. When you'll be working in a cozy air-conditioned office with your donut and coffee, he'll be out in the freezing wind and rain guarding some god-forsaken ammo depot. And he feels pity for you?! Not very bright, is he?

Same here, and the only thing I miss from being a soldier is shooting different weapons. And sometimes you don't want to be in an office in such a beautiful day, but again, the military can destroy a day like those in seconds making you march for 5 hours straight:

"Oh! Such a nice day... gear up! Going for a Walk!"

He must not be very smart actually.

I don't wish to be rude, I really don't, honestly, but what exactly is the point of the Czech army? Or any but two of the European armies? Cf the admirable performance of the Dutch army at Srebenica...

James:

RE: the VB versus Java bickering... I'm interested to know who's defending the VB side. Growing up in coder culture, I always considered VB to be the "simplistic" end of the language scale:

(from "simple" to "serious")
Crayons... markers... watercolors... oil paint
Airsoft... BB gun... 22 rifle... elephant gun
MacOS (pre-X)... Windows... *NIX
VB... Pascal... Java/C#... C/C++... assembly


It's not that the left side of the scale is *worse*, it's just better suited to less-demanding applications. You wouldn't write a tens-of-thousands LOC "enterprise" application in VB (OK, I know some who would, but I'm using the sane/intelligent form of "you" here) just like you wouldn't go rhino hunting with a BB gun.

Perhaps I'm missing something where cthulu is calling Java "the opposite of programming", or where other posters are calling Design Patterns "not a feature" -- in my experience, when you introduce either of them, it's adding order in a chaotic world, not the other way around. Maybe if you're just writing a VBA script to catalog your Magic cards, that's the language best suited for the task. But when you're writing "Real World" software, Java or C# or even C++ with Design Patterns (used correctly!!!) can encourage better, more maintainable code.

Or is my understanding of The Way Things Work itself a WTF?

Well, whether or not it's the Way Things Work is worth thinking about, but, as you say, not relevant to the real world.

The use of design patterns is arguably a good way to produce better, more maintainable code. It was a nice idea. I've seen little evidence of it being useful or helpful in the last ten years or so.

It's more difficult, yet surely more important, to define what writing crappy and unmaintainable code is about. Rock on, WTF!

I took the liberty of completing the program suggested above:

void main()
{
CreateFootballStadiumAndFootballPlayers();
StartTheGameWhenUserPressesSpacebar();
MakePlayersHaveRedShirtsAndWhiteSocks();
...
Profit();
}

Typical conversion:

Someone: So what do you do:
Me: Software Engineer
Someone: With computers?
Me: *sigh* Yes

From here, the conversion branches off into:

1) Oh, I have an issue with my [Sound|Video|Game|Internet|Application] can you look at it?
2) I'm looking to buy a computer, can you find me a cheap and good one? (Apparently I have inside knowledge on how to find cheap computers)*
3) Can you get me a copy of X application? (don't even bother pointing them to a store/website because it must be free)
4) A question about an iPod or similar device.
5) Can yuo tell me how to do X with Myspace/Facebook?
6) Vista is shit isn't it? (I think they are trying to relate with this one)

With which you follow - None of that really has anything to do with what I do.

Which ofcourse gets ignored and another one of the branches above is traversed :-)

* Ofcourse, you never, ever, build someone a computer for them. You will spend the rest of your evenings being their 24/7 support centre.

cparker:

cthulhu:

The real WTF is that someone gave him a book on Java to learn Programming. Java vs Programming. Apple vs Orange.

You lose.

No, Java loses. If you really want to know how to program, you have to be able to understand pointers. Some people will never, ever understand pointers. other people *are* capable of getting it. Java doesn't help you figure out which is which. At least not until they're already in well over their heads. See Joel's article on Java Schools.

C_Boo:

SpasticWeasel:

No, it means that he's probably an MBA

Wow, random trolls abound today. While many of those attracted to a programming are misogynist, semi-literate basement dwelling social misfits, there are others in the field who have side interests like bathing, occasionally breathing fresh air, and (in some cases) pursuing additional degrees.

Except that most people that go to school solely for business really *are* retards. See How Engineers and Managers Communicate.

With the greatest of respect to your brother in law, he's not the sharpest tool in the box is he?!

My brother may be a damn hippie, but I'm relieved to say no one in my family is that dumb.

Watson:

Even in that code there's a bug: shouldn't the players put their uniforms on before the game starts?

function StartTheGameWhenUserPressesSpacebar() {
onKeypress = function (key) { if (key==" ") { startGame(); } }
}

(OK I'm not completely familiar with the syntax. Last time I did anything C-like main() had to return an int, so why is it void?; my snippet here is more like JS, but anyway...)

Alright, so I was reading through all this and in all honesty found it a small bit tedious until I reched that last one about the semi-colon. I honestly almost wet myself laughing.

Thank you for a gloriously uplifting end to a rather down day.

dorkquemada:

cthulhu:

Volmarias:

More like "Fruit vs Orange". No, it's not going to turn him into a computer scientist, but it'll get him started in the right direction. Well, it would, at least, if it wasn't one of those "24 hours" books that tend to teach the worst possible ways to do things.

Java will send him totally in the wrong direction. Java is almost the opposite of true programming.

elaborate please

No!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't encourage him! We'll probably end up with a "Haskell is the only true programming language because side-effects are the work of the Devil" rant or something equally pointless.

TraumaPony:

Not everyone speaks English.

so they shouldn't touch computers, not to mention programming

charon:

TraumaPony:

Not everyone speaks English.

so they shouldn't touch computers, not to mention programming

Do you speak greek in your country? No? Why do you have doctors then? Seeing as the vast majority of the medical terminology is greek words written in latin characters. Why don't you just get rid of them and die?

Beeblebrox:

cparker:

cthulhu:

The real WTF is that someone gave him a book on Java to learn Programming. Java vs Programming. Apple vs Orange.

You lose.

No, Java loses. If you really want to know how to program, you have to be able to understand pointers. Some people will never, ever understand pointers. other people *are* capable of getting it. Java doesn't help you figure out which is which. At least not until they're already in well over their heads. See Joel's article on Java Schools.

That's not what he says. His claim is that because pointers are hard to learn they're a good tool to weed out people who aren't clever enough to be good programmers. Java, by contrast (he claims), is conceptually simple and therefore lets too many incompetents pass CS courses. (IMO you could solve this by making multithreading/concurrency a central part of intro-to-programming, but I digress.)

I have a CS degree myself, and although it didn't involve much programming you couldn't finish your degree without at least some exposure to Java, C, (S)ML and Prolog (and SQL). That strikes me as fulfilling the basic requirement of giving everyone some exposure to all the major programming paradigms.

First of all, I by no means claim to be a computer expert. I took cisco networking courses in high school, along with web design and hardware repair. For all that my acknowledge is mediocre at best. Anyway, thats not overly important to my story. My story has to do with a small classified add I had posted in a local newspaper. It was simple, stated that I would come over and work on peoples computers for them. If it was not something I could fix, I would not charge them and refer them to someone who could. One day I got a call from a gentleman who claimed his brand new monitor wasn't working. Simple enough problem really, probably a driver issue I had thought.

So I proceed to the mans apartment, and knock on the door. It opens, and I'm greeted by an elderly man. He offers me coffee, which I take(I can't turn down coffee), then I ask him where the computer is. He shows me into the second bedroom, which has been turned into an office, and there by the desk I see a computer tower. Gateway, not sure what model, I go over and turn it on. On top of the desk however was a mac, one of the brightly colored IMACS when they first came out. So I turn to him and ask where the monitor is at. He gives me an "are you blind" look, then says it's right there on the desk. I had to actually set up the mac completely to show him it was a completely different computer, and not just a monitor.

I think its best to pretend you do another job.

'I work in an STI clinic!' usually does the trick.

Noone has ever responded with 'Really, well i have this rash?'

:)

lol

Mythokia:

Usually when someone starts the conversation with "are you good with computers?", I expect it to go downhill.

even more fun is when they reply, "Me too!" referring to their ability to use Word and MSN Messenger, and the occasional Ctrl Alt Delete when something freezes, then ask if you could get them a job in programming.

Hi,

tell them about AppleSript. The next sentence is a real life (and more or less working!) example:

Tell application "Finder" to open directory "foo" and do some crazy stuff with every file.

"some crazy stuff" can be the name of a sub function.

Apart of this: AppleScript is horrible for real Programmers with C++/Java/Whatever background. Is completely different to everything else.

Have a nice day.

543:

JS:

I have a similar experience:


him: Do you have some book on programming?

me: I do. Take this Delphi book. It is fairly simple and should be easy to start with.

him: Ok, thanks. And what language do I do the programming in? (Note: we are not native English speakers)

me: Umm, Delphi. It actually is a mutation of Pascal.

him: Oh no, I don't mean program, I mean language, do I need to program in English or can it be Czech?

me: I am not sure what you mean. Some Pascal keywords resemble English, yes. But you can use whatever language you want for naming variables for example.

him: Keywords? Variables? ...

me: (Explaining what programming actually is)

him: Oh, I thought I would write something like: "Create football stadium and football players. Start the game when user presses spacebar. Make players have red shirts and white socks."

Vsak to hod na lamera, nie? :)

Creating the shirts in Czech would be a bit tricky. Or a bit [a href="http://slovniky.idnes.cz/?slovo=tricko&rank=&lng=cs-en"]tričko[/a].

^^^^ Right, that link didn't work. You can see the href anyway.