Comment On What's Gone and What's Past Help

Lennart wasn't quite out of college yet. He still had a semester to go after his co-op job, and he had used everything he'd learned from his Career Integration course to land a job with a respectably-sized, multi-national corporation. The position was end-user support for the company's Oracle installs. It wasn't an ideal position, especially considering some sentiments he agreed with-- but given the dry job market, he couldn't complain. [expand full text]
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Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:17 • by Iie (unregistered)
TRWTF is not using LDAP for your lookups.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:17 • by WTF (unregistered)
WTF-12154: WTF: could not post frist! comment specified.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:17 • by Dirac (unregistered)
tnsnames.ora is always great fun, especially since the client looks for the file in multiple places in a particular order.

Spend half a day with the right version in a correct place, until I found the wrong version in an even more correct place (i.e. a folder higher in the search list)

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:21 • by Remy Porter
306766 in reply to 306763
I've seen a bunch of Oracle environments for a bunch of different organizations, and not one of them has ever used LDAP.

While that would be the "smart" approach, nobody does it.

Also: "It was just like a computer, only slower." was a full-of-win line.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:27 • by nonpartisan
Sorry, but he needs to 'fess up to what happened so they can document the issue. What happens if a circumstance arises when someone else removes this software from their PC? If this is a known issue, they can document it.

TRWTF, of course, is that they didn't back up that file share.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:27 • by DB (unregistered)
I don't see what was Oracle's fault.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:31 • by NorgTheFat (unregistered)
So rather than use a script to copy tsnames.ora from the share to the user's drive, (say the login script), they decided the best way was to just have the file shared out to everyone from the same location. Wow talk about slow performance issues!

And I thought "shared" Access databases were bad...

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:31 • by drachenstern
306770 in reply to 306768
DB:
I don't see what was Oracle's fault.
Let the "reeducation" commence...

Also, QFF.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:32 • by bbq (unregistered)
no filesystem on embedded stuff...

nah, this is just stupidism

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:32 • by Bluesman (unregistered)
The real WTF is putting company critical info on a computer which is given to the newby as work-station.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:32 • by Nibh (unregistered)
306773 in reply to 306763
TRWTF is using Oracle. Amiright?

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:34 • by Some guy (unregistered)
306774 in reply to 306772
Bluesman:
The real WTF is putting company critical info on a computer which is given to the newby as work-station.


That's what I thought at first too, but no, it was on a remote share that he had full permissions on.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:34 • by Spivonious (unregistered)
306775 in reply to 306765
Ha! I had this happen to me too. The Oracle 9i client removes the tnsnames file that is configured in the registry, whether it's local or not. But we had a backup so it wasn't a huge deal.

It's fixed in 10g and up.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:36 • by Otto (unregistered)
306776 in reply to 306772
Bluesman:
The real WTF is putting company critical info on a computer which is given to the newby as work-station.


Nah, you're missing it. The file wasn't on his workstation, it was on a shared network drive somewhere. It just so happens that uninstalling the oracle software caused it to remove that file as well.

If anybody on the system had uninstalled their copy of the software, same problem.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:36 • by wrtlprnft (unregistered)
306777 in reply to 306772
It probably didn't host the file, but it had access through it over some file share, and the permissions to delete it.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:36 • by Anonymous (unregistered)
306778 in reply to 306772
Bluesman:
The real WTF is putting company critical info on a computer which is given to the newby as work-station.
As I read it, the file wasn't stored on that particular computer, but the Oracle uninstaller deleted it anyways.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:36 • by //Rumen (unregistered)
306779 in reply to 306772
It wasn't on his computer, it was on a network share. The uninstall removed all files used by the client INCLUDING the file on the share.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:37 • by JamesQMurphy
306780 in reply to 306772
Bluesman:
The real WTF is putting company critical info on a computer which is given to the newby as work-station.


No, TNSNAMES.ORA wasn't on Lenart's computer. It was on some share somewhere. When Lenart uninstalled Oracle Client from his computer, the uninstaller just went to the share and deleted TNSNAMES.ORA.

And I don't think there would be performance issues doing it this way -- the file is read, not written to, and furthermore, it's only read at connect time. Of course, not backing the file up was TRWTF.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:38 • by DB (unregistered)
306781 in reply to 306770
drachenstern:
DB:
I don't see what was Oracle's fault.
Let the "reeducation" commence...

Also, QFF.


They have a single tnsnames.ora file that was removed by someone running something that they did not understand the impacts of. No backup of the file, no ldap/oid lookup instead, no maintaining the one gold copy of that file in a location that would not be removed by a client uninstall and using TNS_ADMIN or other methods to point to it.

More like dumb implementation?

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:41 • by Bluesman (unregistered)
"Though the file server was backed up, that particular share hadn't been. "

Yep, read over that the first time around. </facepalm>

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:42 • by md5sum
I'm still trying to figure out this whole "dry market" thing. People keep complaining that they can't find jobs, but I keep having people call me wanting me to interview for some developer position somewhere. Last 6 weeks I've had 3 calls. Granted I would have to relocate, but it wouldn't be a problem to find a new job. A friend of mine was laid off last year and found a new company in about 3 weeks. The longest I personally have ever been out of work was 5 weeks, and that was because I was unwilling to relocate at the time.

I think it's the same thing as the homeless person holding a sign that states "Will work for food" right beneath the McDonald's sign that says "Now accepting applications". Yeah, I've seen that, literally. You can't tell me this guy can't find work, he just can't find work he wants to do all the time.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:45 • by Cryo (unregistered)
306784 in reply to 306767
nonpartisan:
Sorry, but he needs to 'fess up to what happened so they can document the issue. What happens if a circumstance arises when someone else removes this software from their PC?


More likely (if they halfway thought about this), most users have only read only access to the file. However, since he was in support, he had read/write access to the file in case something had to change.

TRWTF is why he would remove a program so integral to his job. That isn't cruft - that's software he will likely be using to test out issues and resolve problems.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:48 • by Cryo (unregistered)
306785 in reply to 306784
Cryo:
TRWTF is why he would remove a program so integral to his job. That isn't cruft - that's software he will likely be using to test out issues and resolve problems.


Pre-emptive explanation- I would still keep the version of the program the typical users are using to access the db on the computer, in case there is a bug with the program, or another issue about a setting that the instant access program has that he will have to test.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:49 • by Spivonious (unregistered)
306786 in reply to 306784
[quote user="Cryo"][quote user="nonpartisan"]

TRWTF is why he would remove a program so integral to his job. That isn't cruft - that's software he will likely be using to test out issues and resolve problems. [/quote]

Because the instant client doesn't include any tools or management utilities. It also only provides ODP.NET connections, but we can assume that his company didn't need any ODBC support.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:50 • by bob (unregistered)
Oracle? Man!

Just use MySQL like everyone else.

And of course he shouldn't have owned up! Next time the problem occurs, he can say, "I've been doing some testing and...", and be the hero.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:50 • by Jamie (unregistered)
306788 in reply to 306783
md5sum:
I'm still trying to figure out this whole "dry market" thing. People keep complaining that they can't find jobs, but I keep having people call me wanting me to interview for some developer position somewhere. Last 6 weeks I've had 3 calls. Granted I would have to relocate, but it wouldn't be a problem to find a new job. A friend of mine was laid off last year and found a new company in about 3 weeks. The longest I personally have ever been out of work was 5 weeks, and that was because I was unwilling to relocate at the time.

I think it's the same thing as the homeless person holding a sign that states "Will work for food" right beneath the McDonald's sign that says "Now accepting applications". Yeah, I've seen that, literally. You can't tell me this guy can't find work, he just can't find work he wants to do all the time.


Whilst I agree with you to an extent I think it's important to note that there is a difference between finding jobs and actually being good enough for it.

I have friends who can't find work, not because they're not receiving phonecalls for interviews but simply because they're not good enough (a bit harsh, yes, but true)

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:51 • by Fenris (unregistered)
306789 in reply to 306772
Bluesman:
The real WTF is putting company critical info on a computer which is given to the newby as work-station.


That was my first thought while reading the article, it would also explain the slow running PC. But no, the file was in a share.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:51 • by NorgTheFat (unregistered)
306790 in reply to 306780
There would be performance issues if say thousands of people tried to connect at the same time and the file server was inadequate to handle that many requests...not that far fetched. This is especially bad for VPN/Remote users...

Of course you are right. Not having this config information backed up/documented is the real WTF!

Still, a login script would work better IMHO...


Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:52 • by Bill C. (unregistered)
306791 in reply to 306769
NorgTheFat:
So rather than use a script to copy tsnames.ora from the share to the user's drive, (say the login script), they decided the best way was to just have the file shared out to everyone from the same location. Wow talk about slow performance issues!

And I thought "shared" Access databases were bad...


tnsnames isn't the database, just a small (ours is 3KB) config file. I doubt there's any significant performance penalty from that.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:52 • by Anonymous (unregistered)
Does oracle need write permission to the file in question?

Seems like the share should have been read only (and backed up).

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:53 • by ceiswyn (unregistered)
306793 in reply to 306781
DB:
They have a single tnsnames.ora file that was removed by someone running something that they did not understand the impacts of. No backup of the file, no ldap/oid lookup instead, no maintaining the one gold copy of that file in a location that would not be removed by a client uninstall


It's not actually unreasonable to assume that uninstalling client software will only affect files on the client PC. Do you really check the exact details of what the uninstall program does every time you uninstall something? Or do you, like the rest of us, just go ahead and do 'something that you do not understand the impacts of'?

Sure, not backing up the file was insane; but the Oracle software shouldn't have deleted it in the first place.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:54 • by Anon (unregistered)
306794 in reply to 306783
.... Yeah, I've seen that, literally. You can't tell me this guy can't find work, he just can't find work he wants to do all the time.

I'd think right on the first, wrong on the second. Most likely, he's a panhandler who makes it his 'job'. The economy has been getting bad, but there's always a few that try to take advantage of the generosity of others, unfortunately.

Though not technological, you could have a nifty WTF by figuring out if he actually lives in a nice home and getting before/after pictures of panhandler/homeowner. Bonus points if it's in a more expensive neighborhood.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:57 • by AnOldRelic (unregistered)
306795 in reply to 306776
Otto:
If anybody on the system had uninstalled their copy of the software, same problem.

This is TRWTF. Nevermind the lack of a backup. The fact that the uninstaller actively reaches out beyond the local scope to remove things is enormously... just... WRONG. Ugh. So yes, to nibh, TRWTF here is Oracle itself.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 10:59 • by amischiefr
306796 in reply to 306763
Iie:
TRWTF is not using LDAP for your lookups.

Care to show me how to configure Toad to use LDAP instead of tnsnames.ora?

TRWTF :(

2010-04-27 11:00 • by Need Inspiration (unregistered)
TRWTF is that as soon as lennart deinstalls the client, knowing we're reading TDWTF, we all know the culprit already. Sigh...

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 11:01 • by Doug (unregistered)
Well written. This could be Today's Puzzler on Tech Talk.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 11:03 • by SCSimmons
306799 in reply to 306792
Anonymous:
Does oracle need write permission to the file in question?

Seems like the share should have been read only (and backed up).

My company generally has the folder with the tnsnames.ora file set as read-only. Whether Oracle needs write permissions depends on exactly what you're doing with it. Often enough that I have a template saved with text to paste into the help desk tickets I put in for users that need that for something they're doing. I'm able to recognize the root cause of those errors very quickly these days ...

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 11:06 • by Tomi (unregistered)
At least it was cheap db :)

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 11:07 • by Cryo (unregistered)
306801 in reply to 306783
md5sum:
I think it's the same thing as the homeless person holding a sign that states "Will work for food" right beneath the McDonald's sign that says "Now accepting applications". Yeah, I've seen that, literally. You can't tell me this guy can't find work, he just can't find work he wants to do all the time.


I agree wholeheartedly. However, a lot of people do the math, and find out they make more collecting unemployment and sitting at home than getting a part time job (or two). This is only exacerbated by the constant extension of benefits.

Also, this why some quote unemployment as "unemployed and UNDERemployed"

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 11:10 • by Mel
306802 in reply to 306783
md5sum:
I think it's the same thing as the homeless person holding a sign that states "Will work for food" right beneath the McDonald's sign that says "Now accepting applications". Yeah, I've seen that, literally. You can't tell me this guy can't find work, he just can't find work he wants to do all the time.

Would you want to eat burgers made by someone who sleeps cuddled up with his flea-ridden dog, in the same place where they both crap, who hasn't washed in 3 weeks and hasn't changed his clothes in 3 months? Nah, didn't think so. Would you give that person the benefit of the doubt, hire him (remember: he has no phone, no address, no references, no anything), and give him the facilities to wash/de-stink/de-flea? Again, I didn't think so.

I get the point you're trying to make, and to some extent I agree (particularly when I hear women moaning about 'man-droughts'), but this is an argument I hear all the time, and it's an over-simplification of a problematic issue.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 11:14 • by Centricity (unregistered)
It's easy to find a job once you have experience. There are far more jobs for experienced workers than there are experienced workers to fill them.

When you're fresh out of college like this guy, nobody wants to take a chance on you.

This represents a sort of catch-22: you need experience before you can work, but you need to work to get experience. Internships don't help much.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 11:18 • by Marvin the Martian (unregistered)
This implementation should be used much more generally.

For instance, when I shut down my computer it would be great if all sites I regularly go to stop as well; it makes it much easier to keep up with things.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 11:19 • by ObiWayneKenobi
These stories need to be written better to not give it away. The moment I read that he uninstalled the program and a minute later got a call saying "The database is gone" then I knew exactly what had happened.

It still amazes me how utterly clueless some companies are, and how they can actually stay in business if people that stupid are running/working for them. If idiots can start businesses and make millions of dollars... think of how much money intelligent people could make?

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 11:19 • by Osno (unregistered)
I miss IHOC

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 11:21 • by ich (unregistered)
306807 in reply to 306796
Menu Session\New Connection - Tab to the right allows to switch between TNS, Direct connection and LDAP. You'd obviously have to have an LDAP descriptor pointed at your Oracle instance.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 11:30 • by Iie (unregistered)
306808 in reply to 306796
amischiefr:
Iie:
TRWTF is not using LDAP for your lookups.

Care to show me how to configure Toad to use LDAP instead of tnsnames.ora?


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=toad+ldap+descriptor

Also, are you suggesting all of that company's internal customers are Toad users? If anything, LDAP still should have been the preferred method for the population and tnsnames should be a fallback for the IT developers. And since they're IT, they should be expected to maintain their own tnsnames relevant to their applications.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 11:31 • by Prosthetic Lips
306809 in reply to 306806
Osno:

I miss IHOC


Not me. I miss Irish Girl!

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 11:34 • by Maurits
+1 on "OP should tell the people concerned exactly how it happened."

> he had Full Control

WTF #1, which pales in comparison to...

> Though the file server was backed up, that particular share hadn't been

WTF #2

The only way I've seen a global read/write network drive work well is if it gets wiped periodically so people don't keep important things there.

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 11:37 • by Osno (unregistered)
306812 in reply to 306809
Prosthetic Lips:
Osno:

I miss IHOC


Not me. I miss Irish Girl!


Irish girl on an IHOC t-shirt?

Re: What's Gone and What's Past Help

2010-04-27 11:38 • by Shakespeare (unregistered)
306813 in reply to 306805
ObiWayneKenobi:
These stories need to be written better to not give it away. The moment I read that he uninstalled the program and a minute later got a call saying "The database is gone" then I knew exactly what had happened.
I think you're just saying that. Probably all of us guessed that Lennart's actions had something to do with the problem, and if that had been the end of the story it would have been pretty ho hum. But that wasn't the point. The point was that a local uninstaller had deleted a remote file, which I don't think you guessed right away.
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