Slightly More Sociable

  • KattMan 2007-10-22 11:12
    Can you believe some people can even exist in this world with prejudices like that and still look like a productive member of society? Actually thinking about it I can. Most seemingly productive members of society have prejudices just as unjustified as this one.
  • Morg 2007-10-22 11:14
    In my interviewing experience it seems common to run an applicant the interviewers like by whoever is the big shot on the location (so the CEO for a small operation), at least to shake hands. Giving a veto option I guess.
  • muahaha 2007-10-22 11:22
    so the real wtf is they actually hired a girl, right?
  • Doug#1 2007-10-22 11:25
    Girls can do math now?
  • Welbog 2007-10-22 11:28
    Doug#1:
    Girls can do math now?
    Luckily that's just superstition.
  • Tp 2007-10-22 11:44
    He should have been thrilled by the idea of actually having girls at the workplace!! Damn fool!!

  • Kelly 2007-10-22 11:45
    Story of my life. The CTO at my last job was incredibly sexist - he even mentioned in front of the entire tech team how shocked he was that another CTO he had met was a woman. I was one of three females on a tech team of >50. I left because they kept hiring guys who were way dumber than some of the females who I interviewed and who didn't get offers.

    Of course the comments on this post highlight the fact that the idea that women are less smart at math and computers is alive and well, unfortunately. I majored in applied math and minored in CS. And I'd be willing to take on Doug or Welbog in a smartness contest any day.
  • Welbog 2007-10-22 11:48
    Kelly:
    Story of my life. The CTO at my last job was incredibly sexist - he even mentioned in front of the entire tech team how shocked he was that another CTO he had met was a woman. I was one of three females on a tech team of >50. I left because they kept hiring guys who were way dumber than some of the females who I interviewed and who didn't get offers.

    Of course the comments on this post highlight the fact that the idea that women are less smart at math and computers is alive and well, unfortunately. I majored in applied math and minored in CS. And I'd be willing to take on Doug or Welbog in a smartness contest any day.
    Though my comment was entirely facetious, the concept of a smartness contest is intriguing. May the best man win.
  • Debug Mode 2007-10-22 11:48
    Doug#1:
    Girls can do math now?
    She's a witch.

    Seriously, first they're programming, next they're gonna want to vote or something.
  • John Awkward 2007-10-22 11:49
    "some of the females who I interviewed"

    who -> whom
  • Kinglink 2007-10-22 11:50
    muahaha:
    so the real wtf is they actually hired a girl, right?


    Nah it's that there's girls in IT. I've heard rumors of it, I've met girls who claim they were "in IT" but I've yet to meet one who's actually doing the job.

    Of course just kidding girls... well not really, I've never met one.
  • Andrew 2007-10-22 11:51
    Just be sure not to challenge them to any ability-to-get-a-joke contests.
  • Diego 2007-10-22 11:52
    girls are the best programmers

    It is true! They are always successful getting the nearest codemonkey to make their job :-)
  • Kelly 2007-10-22 11:54
    Well I'm a developer, so...hi.

    And John Awkward - I could forward you some hilarious emails from guys in my office mixing up "your" and "you're." Or the guy who emailed me fixes to his broken stored procedures and apologized for the "incontinence." Too bad it's not worth the effort to find your previous comment posts and find all of the minor grammatical errors, which I'm sure exist.

    'Sides, I said I studied applied math and CS, not English. :)
  • pitchingchris 2007-10-22 11:57
    I've met a few women that were pretty good developers and I've met a few that were better at math than me. Just because a majority of woman aren't in this field, that doesn't mean they all woman don't belong here. I'm sure we've all met some men that don't even belong in development either ! Sometimes woman look at a problem a little differently and can bring a fresh perspective.
  • FireJayPa 2007-10-22 11:57
    Welbog:
    Doug#1:
    Girls can do math now?
    Luckily that's just superstition.


    Next thing you'll tell me is they are allowed out of the kitchen...
  • Lynx 2007-10-22 12:00
    There ARE females in IT (I'm not using the term "girls" because some of them are old enough to be my mother!). Some of them are very good at it -- in many cases better than me (yes, I know that can be taken to mean I suck...).

    Personally, I do like it that way. At the risk of sounding incredibly sexist, it does give me something nice to look at, and they are interesting to talk to sometimes, and a lot of them are competent at what they do. It's a lot better than talking to a bunch of egoistic alpha males all trying to prove to each other that their manhood is one inch longer.

    And then there are those that really, really, shouldn't be in IT...
  • Tp 2007-10-22 12:02
    The real wtf is that all of you feel he is "sexist"
    If he said: "so you hired one of those guys?" he would've gotten the job. The interviewer was overcautious.
  • bshock 2007-10-22 12:03
    They obviously made the correct choice by not hiring this individual. Job interviews aren't difficult. Anyone who is foolish enough to express naked prejudice during one is likely capable of worse indiscretions.
  • jread 2007-10-22 12:03
    The *real* WTF is the picture they used on the article. No female developers are even remotely that attractive. The only ones I've ever known were hideous enough to haunt a house.

    And yes, I am aware that most *male* developers do not have to worry about GQ magazine knocking on their doors.
  • seymore15074 2007-10-22 12:04
    muahaha:
    so the real wtf is they actually hired a girl, right?


    Two of them!
  • zip 2007-10-22 12:05
    "girls can do math now?" jokes are one step above "omg pix plz," guys

    http://www.xkcd.com/322/
  • emurphy 2007-10-22 12:10
    I guess this would be a bad time to adopt "sociable girl 4ever" as my sig, huh.
  • John Awkward 2007-10-22 12:13
    Don't worry, I'm only here to be awkward. And you can try to find grammar mistakes in my post's, but you won't find any.
  • StrideColossus 2007-10-22 12:14
    Lynx:
    It's a lot better than talking to a bunch of egoistic alpha males all trying to prove to each other that their manhood is one inch longer.


    egoistic? (sic)
    alpha males?

    Maybe it's just me, but the vast majority of the men (and a lot of the women) that I've come across during my career 'in IT' were definitely not the above - nerdy losers yes, alpha males no.
  • sweavo 2007-10-22 12:16
    Nothing sexist about being surprised to see a woman in software. There were 2 on my course of 95, and I have worked with zero female software engineers since.
  • a former big-fiver 2007-10-22 12:16
    Lynx:
    There ARE females in IT ...
    And then there are those that really, really, shouldn't be in IT...


    Like most of the *guys* in IT?
  • Lynx 2007-10-22 12:16
    StrideColossus:
    Maybe it's just me, but the vast majority of the men (and a lot of the women) that I've come across during my career 'in IT' were definitely not the above - nerdy losers yes, alpha males no.

    I agree the good majority are pretty ok folks. The problem is I work to support IT management. We're talking about alpha males in a pack of nerdy losers....
  • ViciousPsicle 2007-10-22 12:17
    So sad. A guy I worked with at my last job had a similar horror story. He was part of an interview loop where the candidate was doing very well right up to the last interviewer, who was supposed to judge whether he would be a good social fit with the rest of the team. When the interviewer asked him if he had any questions about the company or the team, he asked, "So there aren't any women on this team, right?" Yeah, he didn't get an offer.

    Not only do women make great engineers, in my experience, they often make AWESOME engineering managers. Hmmm... is it okay to make positive generalizations?
  • Cuttie McPasty 2007-10-22 12:19
    pitchingchris:
    I've met a few women that were pretty good developers and I've met a few that were better at math than me. Just because a majority of woman aren't in this field, that doesn't mean they all woman don't belong here. I'm sure we've all met some men that don't even belong in development either ! Sometimes woman look at a problem a little differently and can bring a fresh perspective.


    Dude, that's focus and attention to detail. Some of the best QA testers are women too. Let's not forget that. I've also been managed by a woman who was a CTO. If you still go through life believing that having math 'skillz' is a gender thing, I feel sorry for you.
  • Lynx 2007-10-22 12:20
    a former big-fiver:
    Lynx:
    There ARE females in IT ...
    And then there are those that really, really, shouldn't be in IT...

    Like most of the *guys* in IT?

    Oh, for sure. Some of the guys aren't the greatest in the world either. There's gender equality in stupidity.
  • Fuz 2007-10-22 12:21
    John Awkward:
    Don't worry, I'm only here to be awkward. And you can try to find grammar mistakes in my post's, but you won't find any.


    Mistakes in your post's what?
  • Doug#1 2007-10-22 12:23
    Woah, I feel like my character is being attacked here.

    I was only joking about the women can't do math thing.

    They can do anything a man can do.

    Now get back in the kitchen and make me some eggs you baby machine!
  • VampBoy 2007-10-22 12:23
    John Awkward:
    Don't worry, I'm only here to be awkward. And you can try to find grammar mistakes in my post's, but you won't find any.


    Oh, I just love irony.
  • death 2007-10-22 12:25
    Unfortunately the tone of the statement is not visible from text. Saying the same thing with a surprised voice is excusable, some male developers have never seen a female developer, thats no reason to decide the the guy is sexist. However there are nasty ways of saying the same thing too. And in the end, If others do not feel comfortable working with him, he wont be hired.

    The attitude is hardly surprising with the number of males on the market in IT trade compared to females that a female is regarded as an odd one out. My experience with this attitude has been mostly outside work, tho I work in a team with two guys. Going to an IT themed IRC channel and declaring yourself female fetches an interesting result. The boys club phenomena. When women talk about technology they must be wrong.
    Example:
    Me and the guys were wiring a large production hall with CAT5. We had rented one of those electricity powered basket lifts that can be driven around while in the basket. Mid one day our vehicle stopped being able to move on the floor, but it still lifted. We looked around and found that one of the wires powering the wheel drives had a power line that looked burnt from the edge and came to conclusion that it must have lost contact. We called the rental company who sent out their repair crew along with the replacement lift. The guys were out of touch at the time so I got to show the two repair guys to the lift and explain the problem. I showed them the scorched looking cable and explained why we believed it was the problem. Then I went away. Hour later I came back to see how they were doing. They were investigating the machine form completely different end and had not even looked at the cable. I explained to them again why I believed it might be a good idea to see the cable. they shrugged and kept on doing whatever. About an hour after that the guys returned, and when I told them about the repair guys tinkering. Then my boss went to see them, and lo and behold, the repair guys immediately started looking into the burnt looking cable and in 15 minutes time had the lift rolling again with a temporary patch to the cable... And things like that seem to happen quite often... Sigh, thus is the life of a tech understanding female. But seeing a sexist guys face when you OWN him in IT is precious ;)



    Addendum (2007-10-22 13:01):
    PS: thats 270 panel patched cat5-s I wont be forgetting in a hurry :P
  • A N Other 2007-10-22 12:38
    One word...

    Paula

    Captcha: Dreadlocks - no thanks they smell!!
  • Cyberscythe 2007-10-22 12:38
    I just want to mention the Steve Rule again.
    http://weblogs.asp.net/alex_papadimoulis/archive/2005/04/22/403889.aspx
  • jkohen 2007-10-22 12:40
    death:
    The attitude is hardly surprising with the number of males on the market in IT trade compared to females that a female is regarded as an odd one out. My experience with this attitude has been mostly outside work, tho I work in a team with two guys. Going to an IT themed IRC channel and declaring yourself female fetches an interesting result. The boys club phenomena. When women talk about technology they must be wrong.


    Wait, you are a woman and your nick name is "death?!" There is clearly something strange going on here.

    Back to reality... this whole argument is bollocks. Why are most of you guys here so awkward when refering to women? And I mean those trying to be serious. Most non-sarcastic comments today seem so forced and unnatural that it's not even funny. You are trying too hard.
  • anne 2007-10-22 12:41
    Doug#1:
    Woah, I feel like my character is being attacked here.

    I was only joking about the women can't do math thing.

    They can do anything a man can do.

    Now get back in the kitchen and make me some eggs you baby machine!


    We can do math, it's just, like, hard, ok? Tee-hee! *hair toss*
  • operagost 2007-10-22 12:42
    Kelly:
    Of course the comments on this post highlight the fact that the idea that women are less smart at math and computers is alive and well, unfortunately.

    You comment highlights the fact that WTF posters named "Kelly" don't understand irony.
  • Calli Arcale 2007-10-22 12:43
    That's interesting. Where I work, I haven't had to deal with any kind of sexism. I'd say there are definitely more males than females, but we ladies are accepted on our own merits. It's a very nice feeling -- not considered special because of gender, and not expected to fail because of our gender.

    One of my projects went through a "slow" period for a while and all of the men except for the team lead wound up on other projects. Basically, only the folks who absolutely had to be on the program were still on it (and not on it full-time). The weekly software meetings were very relaxed, and conversation often turned to topics which men might find uncomfortable, such as childbirth. :-P Of course, the fact that the project was moving very slowly at the time had a lot to do with the relaxed atmosphere as well.
  • dmitriy 2007-10-22 12:43
    muahaha:
    so the real wtf is they actually hired a girl, right?

    Doug#1:
    Girls can do math now?


    I am a male software developer, and these two comments made me cringe. Of course women can do math, and of course women can be programmers. I bet that for every Paula Bean there are dozens of excellent female programmers.

    I see two WTFs in the story. The first, and most obvious, is the interviewee's attitude toward female programmers. The second is that he didn't keep his mouth shut. He questioned the CEO's competence with his remark, and this may be part of the reason he didn't get hired.
  • Mogri 2007-10-22 12:45
    The Steve Rule: in a random group of programmers [from English-speaking countries], there will be more people named Steve than females.

    (With internationalization nowadays, you need the English-speaking countries clause.)
  • hehe 2007-10-22 12:47
    Hillarious!
  • Matthew 2007-10-22 12:49
    Lynx:
    There ARE females in IT (I'm not using the term "girls" because some of them are old enough to be my mother!). Some of them are very good at it -- in many cases better than me (yes, I know that can be taken to mean I suck...).


    I agree, "girls" is so condescending. I prefer dames.

  • nice 2007-10-22 12:49
    Andrew:
    Just be sure not to challenge them to any ability-to-get-a-joke contests.


    Too funny!
  • Mj 2007-10-22 12:50
    dmitriy:
    muahaha:
    so the real wtf is they actually hired a girl, right?

    Doug#1:
    Girls can do math now?


    I am a male software developer, and these two comments made me cringe. Of course women can do math, and of course women can be programmers. I bet that for every Paula Bean there are dozens of excellent female programmers.

    I see two WTFs in the story. The first, and most obvious, is the interviewee's attitude toward female programmers. The second is that he didn't keep his mouth shut. He questioned the CEO's competence with his remark, and this may be part of the reason he didn't get hired.

    I’m a female programmer, and these comments did not make me cringe. They made me chuckle. Stop being so serious… we don’t need someone to save us.
  • Anon 2007-10-22 12:51
    lol...I was thinking the exact same thing!
  • Ben 2007-10-22 12:55
    The real WTF is that Shanna was appearing in public without a male relative and without her face covered, in the manner of a whore.
  • Anon 2007-10-22 12:56
    fuz:

    John Awkward:

    Don't worry, I'm only here to be awkward. And you can try to find grammar mistakes in my post's, but you won't find any.


    Mistakes in your post's what?


    lol....I was thinking the exact same thing! (sorry for the duplicate post....the quote didn't come through in the initial posting).
  • Sascha 2007-10-22 12:57
    The real WTF is that there are just too few girls in Computer Sciences.

    /sascha

    (once-again student since 2 weeks ;-)
  • Sascha 2007-10-22 12:57
    The real WTF is that there are just too few girls in Computer Sciences.

    /sascha

    (once-again student since 2 weeks ;-)
  • CP 2007-10-22 12:57
    When I started my CS degree fresh out of high school in 1990, I was one of maybe 2-3 females in my classes. I got hired as a programmer pretty early on, and never finished the degree.

    Now I'm running my own business (successfully, even; self-employed != unemployed any more ;-) and finishing my degree this December. I'm still one of maybe 2-3 females in my classes.
  • Troy Mclure 2007-10-22 12:58
    Mj:

    I’m a female programmer, and these comments did not make me cringe. They made me chuckle. Stop being so serious… we don’t need someone to save us.


    I've already notified Gloria Allred. Don't worry sweetheart we'll save you!!!

    (A rip of the Man Show, but genius none the less)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEqWgMsEA_8
  • Me 2007-10-22 12:59
    John Awkward:
    Don't worry, I'm only here to be awkward. And you can try to find grammar mistakes in my post's, but you won't find any.


    The plural of post is posts, you used the possessive.
  • Eam 2007-10-22 13:04
    VampBoy:
    John Awkward:
    Don't worry, I'm only here to be awkward. And you can try to find grammar mistakes in my post's, but you won't find any.


    Oh, I just love irony.


    I think you and Fuz just lost the ability-to-get-a-joke contest.
  • Eam 2007-10-22 13:04
    Me:
    John Awkward:
    Don't worry, I'm only here to be awkward. And you can try to find grammar mistakes in my post's, but you won't find any.


    The plural of post is posts, you used the possessive.

    You too. Get your head in the game.
  • jkohen 2007-10-22 13:05
    Mj:
    dmitriy:
    muahaha:
    so the real wtf is they actually hired a girl, right?

    Doug#1:
    Girls can do math now?


    I am a male software developer, and these two comments made me cringe. Of course women can do math, and of course women can be programmers. I bet that for every Paula Bean there are dozens of excellent female programmers.

    I’m a female programmer, and these comments did not make me cringe. They made me chuckle. Stop being so serious… we don’t need someone to save us.


    You didn't get the joke. That's humor, Russian-style.

    What this discusion needs is more stereotypes!

    But really, what's wrong with someone being upset by sexism (even if that person didn't get the sarcasm in the OPs' comments)? Does it really matter to you that he is a male? Can't you separate his opinion from his gender?

    You people are weird. I want more comments on why PHP programmers are terrible and why Oracle killed your dog. At least those don't make me so scared of mankind as the ongoing exchange.
  • Doug#1 2007-10-22 13:12
    Matthew:
    Lynx:
    There ARE females in IT (I'm not using the term "girls" because some of them are old enough to be my mother!). Some of them are very good at it -- in many cases better than me (yes, I know that can be taken to mean I suck...).


    I agree, "girls" is so condescending. I prefer dames.




    broads is the best!
  • death 2007-10-22 13:12
    Mj:

    I’m a female programmer, and these comments did not make me cringe. They made me chuckle. Stop being so serious… we don’t need someone to


    :D I see a seasoned IT female here:D You need the skill to laugh at sexist jokes (and respond in kind, there are plenty of male stereotype to exploit out there ;) ) to break into the boys cub ;)

    Btw, the full name would be Alexia Death (a rather female name for an alias;) ) But Death is a whole char shorter(conserving bytes to spare energy resources ) ;)
  • Doug#1 2007-10-22 13:14
    With all joking aside I would love to encounter more women in the technical world. In college I just wanted 1 woman in my class let alone 1 attractive woman.

    What is the reason for the shortage? Aside from the fact that we are all creepy creepy little boys at heart.
  • vt_mruhlin 2007-10-22 13:15
    This is the perfect thread for me to complain about my company's Women's Forum. They had some meeting about career pathways/etc. Being new at the company, I heard about the meeting and decided to go. Didn't know it was a women-only thing until the meeting started. Man, that was awkward.

    I got some wierd looks, but I'd like to see them use it against me without having harassment lawsuits...
  • j6cubic 2007-10-22 13:21
    Tp:
    The real wtf is that all of you feel he is "sexist"
    If he said: "so you hired one of those guys?" he would've gotten the job. The interviewer was overcautious.
    Depends on the tone. The following sentences all have different meanings:

    "So, you hired one of those girls?" (pretty much neutral)
    "So you hired one of those girls?" (implying that the girl was hired because he wasn't)
    "So you hired one of those GIRLS?" (implying that girls can't do the job)
    "So you hired one of THOSE girls?" (implying that those particular girls don't seem very capable)
    "So you HIRED one of those girls?" (implying that women should do slave labor)
    "So YOU hired one of those girls?" (implying that the person you're talking to is a complete retard)
  • death 2007-10-22 13:28
    Doug#1:
    With all joking aside I would love to encounter more women in the technical world. In college I just wanted 1 woman in my class let alone 1 attractive woman.

    Poor you :( I started out as 1 out of 3 females in CS hardware branch at university. I was the only one who graduated tho...

    Doug#1:
    What is the reason for the shortage? Aside from the fact that we are all creepy creepy little boys at heart.

    I guess tech is just not as attractive to women as it is to men :D I mean how many women would find it interesting to know anything about what makes a computer work?
  • Steve Rapp 2007-10-22 13:33
    Talk about the law of natural consequences kicking .....
  • kmactane 2007-10-22 13:36
    Andrew:
    Just be sure not to challenge them to any ability-to-get-a-joke contests.


    The jokes have to actually be funny for that to work.

    Helpful hint: Most of the jokes about women in computing are of the funny-once type, not funny-always. After you've heard them the first few thousand times, they become actively annoying.
  • antiPC 2007-10-22 13:40
    One of the most amazing things about modern PC society is that we refuse to acknowledge that men and women are, in general, wired differently. Our brains are different. The male brain and body work well for certain tasks, and the female brain and body work well for other tasks.

    There are exceptions, but those exceptions shouldn't prevent one from coming to a rational conclusion, on this or any other similar subject.
  • ahgan 2007-10-22 13:42
    Doug#1:
    Matthew:
    Lynx:
    There ARE females in IT (I'm not using the term "girls" because some of them are old enough to be my mother!). Some of them are very good at it -- in many cases better than me (yes, I know that can be taken to mean I suck...).


    I agree, "girls" is so condescending. I prefer dames.




    broads is the best!


    Better than wench?
  • Carnildo 2007-10-22 13:44
    KattMan:
    Can you believe some people can even exist in this world with prejudices like that and still look like a productive member of society? Actually thinking about it I can. Most seemingly productive members of society have prejudices just as unjustified as this one.


    From the wording, it sounds like he's not prejudiced, he simply never got beyond the "girls have COOTIES!" stage of being a kid.
  • akatherder 2007-10-22 13:45
    The first interview:
    We need someone for the ABC project. This guy seems pretty competent, but that girl has a nice ra... err she's more sociable.

    The second interview:
    Absolutely nothing is getting done on the ABC project. Call that one guy back and give him the same project on the same deadline.
  • SuperousOxide 2007-10-22 13:47
    FireJayPa:

    Next thing you'll tell me is they are allowed out of the kitchen...


    Well of course they are. Who else is going to bring me a beer when I'm watching the game in the living room?
  • Harrow 2007-10-22 13:48
    death:
    ...Then my boss went to see them, and lo and behold, the repair guys immediately started looking into the burnt looking cable and in 15 minutes time had the lift rolling again...
    When some dumbtard ignores or disrespects one of my techs because she is a girl, I always call him on it. Nothing dreadful or threatening, just a remark or two to indicate dissatisfaction with performance. As the boss in your example, I would say something like, "Didn't she tell you about the burnt cable? Didn't you understand her? You'd've had it fixed two hours ago if you'd paid attention." I would have tried to say that where you could hear it, too, just to balance out the insult a little.

    -Harrow.

  • Dave 2007-10-22 13:49
    There are 14 people in our team, 7 of whom are of the female persuasion; two are managers and one is a team leader. It's the most women I've ever worked with in an IT job.



    And three of them are hot.
  • tchize 2007-10-22 13:57
    Where is this? If it's not in US (speak about préjugés?), i could perhaps apply for code monkey guy in an environnement with less testosterone...
    It's my opinion anyway we are damn missing women in tech environment. I know a few IT girls but none that are incompetent. By far, i can't say the same of men... Glad some bosses around are aware of that!
  • pitchingchris 2007-10-22 13:57
    Dave:
    There are 14 people in our team, 7 of whom are of the female persuasion; two are managers and one is a team leader. It's the most women I've ever worked with in an IT job.



    And three of them are hot.


    Sounds like Dave has it made. How does he get any work done ?
  • meh 2007-10-22 14:01
    death:
    Btw, the full name would be Alexia Death (a rather female name for an alias;) ) But Death is a whole char shorter(conserving bytes to spare energy resources ) ;)


    Wut? A whole char?
  • Open Sores 2007-10-22 14:01
    Kelly:
    Story of my life. The CTO at my last job was incredibly sexist - he even mentioned in front of the entire tech team how shocked he was that another CTO he had met was a woman. I was one of three females on a tech team of >50. I left because they kept hiring guys who were way dumber than some of the females who I interviewed and who didn't get offers.

    Of course the comments on this post highlight the fact that the idea that women are less smart at math and computers is alive and well, unfortunately. I majored in applied math and minored in CS. And I'd be willing to take on Doug or Welbog in a smartness contest any day.


    Damn, I was completely with you right up until the bastardization of the Engrish language of "a smartness contest"... "an intellectual contest", "a challenge of minds", etc would be far less grating on ones ears!
  • Vechni 2007-10-22 14:04
    death:

    Btw, the full name would be Alexia Death (a rather female name for an alias;) ) But Death is a whole char shorter(conserving bytes to spare energy resources ) ;)



    Well that's cute, because you know about something so simple (computers use electricy), yet seemingly quite advanced, and that and you wanted to share that with us.... awww

    Also, that doesn't save electricity, in any way, shapre or form... so you wanted to share a really simple concept, but you do not even understand it? Don't worry though, I'd chew any out for saying something that retarded.
  • death 2007-10-22 14:04
    "When some dumbtard ignores or disrespects one of my techs because she is a girl, I always call him on it. Nothing dreadful or threatening, just a remark or two to indicate dissatisfaction with performance."

    I'd like to work for you :) I did not exactly hear what he told them but we had a nice laugh at them amongst ourselves afterwards about those blokes... It must feel stupid to be told three times by not lift experts where the problem is and spending two hours finding out that they are right...
  • Franz Kafka 2007-10-22 14:12
    Matthew:
    Lynx:
    There ARE females in IT (I'm not using the term "girls" because some of them are old enough to be my mother!). Some of them are very good at it -- in many cases better than me (yes, I know that can be taken to mean I suck...).


    I agree, "girls" is so condescending. I prefer dames.



    I use girls because it pairs well with 'guys'. Guys and women? Yecch.
  • Sean 2007-10-22 14:14
    Personal anecdotal statistics:

    I've met 5 women in IT in my life. 4 of the 5 were incompetent jackasses who wouldn't even pass a level 100 CS course if I was running the classroom. Only 1/5th of women who try to be in IT are actually good at it.

    I've met countless men in IT in my life. All but a small handful of them were incompetent jackasses etc. The percentage of them who try to be in IT and are good at it is quite close to 0.

    Therefor, I can only conclude that women are better at IT than men. Statistics don't lie. ;)
  • Ben 2007-10-22 14:14
    I work in an IT department with about 25 developers. My department is about 40% females, and we don't have any Steves.
  • death 2007-10-22 14:16
    Vechni:

    Well that's cute, because you know about something so simple (computers use electricy), yet seemingly quite advanced, and that and you wanted to share that with us.... awww
    Or of abstract thought and free association...

    Aww, poor you, it must be hard to live without sense of humor other than black humor. ;)

    Vechni:
    Also, that doesn't save electricity, in any way, shapre or form... so you wanted to share a really simple concept, but you do not even understand it? Don't worry though, I'd chew any out for saying something that retarded.


    REALLY? I save a Byte. That byte is stored on a drive. A whole byte is written and read less saving electricity(energy). then one byte less is stored in RAM before dispatched to all readers of these pages. A small but real amount of power is saved for not having to send and store it and to process it in each clients end. So you cant say it does not save energy!

    Addendum (2007-10-22 14:24):
    PS: Think of all the saved CPU cycles in all the devices that touch the data and the saved bandwidth of all the pipes... My name choice may as well in the long run save the mankind that last critical drop of oli...
  • ChiefCrazyTalk 2007-10-22 14:29
    The Real WTF (tm) is that he didn't sue for reverse discrimination.
  • GeekGirl 2007-10-22 14:32
    The terms guys and girls are not parallel in meaning. "Boys and girls" are, "guys and gals" are, "men and women" are, and "ladies and gentlemen" are. It's not a rant on sexism, I just wanted to point out that the two terms are not equal.

    I'm a female software engineer, and I was the only female CS major in my entire graduating class. That was 10 years ago, and I hear it hasn't gotten much better. So hello to all the other CS women who are posting today!
  • Some Tour Guide 2007-10-22 14:39

    At my company, we're very mindful of such concerns.

    Just the other day, the boss said, "Hey Jiggles, grab a pad and back that gorgeous butt in here."

    We teased her about acting like she didn't like it.

    --------------------------------

    WOAH WOAH WOAH! Before you turn on those flame cannons:
    http://improvidentlackwit.com/lackwit/2003/10/remarkably_sexi.html
  • Huh?? 2007-10-22 14:40
    Lynx:
    There ARE females in IT (I'm not using the term "girls" because some of them are old enough to be my mother!). Some of them are very good at it -- in many cases better than me (yes, I know that can be taken to mean I suck...).

    Personally, I do like it that way. At the risk of sounding incredibly sexist, it does give me something nice to look at, and they are interesting to talk to sometimes, and a lot of them are competent at what they do. It's a lot better than talking to a bunch of egoistic alpha males all trying to prove to each other that their manhood is one inch longer.

    And then there are those that really, really, shouldn't be in IT...


    So... some women are very good at being old enough to be your mother, and some are even better than you at being old enough to be your mother? Ok then...

    And you like readers to infer, from your comments, that you suck?

    Right... I'll be right back with a nice lady all dressed in black leather for you. She won't hurt you, much...
  • Anon 2007-10-22 14:42
    antiPC:
    There are exceptions, but those exceptions shouldn't prevent one from coming to a rational conclusion, on this or any other similar subject.


    And that rational conclusion is? Please do enlighten me and be specific.
  • Vechni 2007-10-22 14:54
    @death:
    are you a hardware engineer?

    "A whole byte is written and read [to a drive] less saving electricity(energy)."
    Data isn't read or written one byte at time. Also, typically it's guys who talk about how to balance the national debt, yet don't know how to balance their check book... seems other joined the club too!

    Also! I thought the example was saving electricity from your machine, which would have made more sense, if say, u were using a laptop. Also, on a drive, data isn't in the form of char or a byte, being that they don't have bit registers. It is read in/written to as a one though. Finally, what you don't understand on the abstract level (but you give us a lecture on abstraction... please continue though we were all taking notes!!) is that chars/bytes, and memory itself is an abstraction of the operating system, not the hardware. You can allocate 4gigs of memory, or 4 bytes of memory, same electricy. Finally, other than typing it on your keyboard, appending 5 chars to a string consumes no more electricty than having sent the original string to this website.
  • Lysis 2007-10-22 14:55
    Girls are good to hire because they can make sammiches for the men.
  • sdf 2007-10-22 15:04
    antiPC:
    One of the most amazing things about modern PC society is that we refuse to acknowledge that men and women are, in general, wired differently. Our brains are different. The male brain and body work well for certain tasks, and the female brain and body work well for other tasks.

    There are exceptions, but those exceptions shouldn't prevent one from coming to a rational conclusion, on this or any other similar subject.


    Totally agree. It's equality in the congruent sense, rather than the identical sense. (Actually, congruent might be the wrong word. I don't know what the right word is.)

    Sometimes I wonder if the reason there aren't more women in programming is that most of their brains are wired such that they realize what a horrible career it really is in the long term. :)
  • KattMan 2007-10-22 15:06
    death:

    Addendum (2007-10-22 14:24):
    PS: Think of all the saved CPU cycles in all the devices that touch the data and the saved bandwidth of all the pipes... My name choice may as well in the long run save the mankind that last critical drop of oli...


    Except for the fact that it took you to write this much and so much more explaining it, thereby wasting a far greater amount of that oil then you originally saved.

    Sounds like a candidate for management. Save a penny by spending a dime.
  • Lynx 2007-10-22 15:09
    Huh??:
    Right... I'll be right back with a nice lady all dressed in black leather for you. She won't hurt you, much...

    Heh, it's probably an improvement to my current status.

    You want to take things deliberately out of context, I'm fine. It's an internet "forum", we're supposed to be stupid... just don't go too far.
  • James 2007-10-22 15:09
    j6cubic:
    Tp:
    The real wtf is that all of you feel he is "sexist"
    If he said: "so you hired one of those guys?" he would've gotten the job. The interviewer was overcautious.
    Depends on the tone. The following sentences all have different meanings:

    "So, you hired one of those girls?" (pretty much neutral)
    "So you hired one of those girls?" (implying that the girl was hired because he wasn't)
    "So you hired one of those GIRLS?" (implying that girls can't do the job)
    "So you hired one of THOSE girls?" (implying that those particular girls don't seem very capable)
    "So you HIRED one of those girls?" (implying that women should do slave labor)
    "So YOU hired one of those girls?" (implying that the person you're talking to is a complete retard)



    Dammit, beaten to the punch again. I just wanted to point out that the story doesn't give enough context to call this one a WTF. Frankly, and I'm really glad I'm saying this anonymously (my wife would smack me), I've had enough experiences with women who fall into the victim culture so far that anybody calling them a "girl" (even if the male candidate was 50 and the submitter was 25) takes offense as if she were a black man in the Jim Crow south being called "boy". The victim culture has made it taboo to identify people by their visible characteristics if they're defined in a "protected class": I can say "that guy with the black hair" to distinguish him from the person standing next to him, but I can't say "that Asian guy", because skin color is a protected class.

    Besides which, I'd say that today any guy with a technical career is allowed to be surprised that he has girls/women/females as co-workers; not because he thinks they're not smart enough (that would be both sexist and stupid), but because he's capable of noticing and commenting on a trend, i.e. that a disproportionate percentage of people who study a technical track are men. In my office of ~30 people, there's 1 (!) female programmer and two or three female tech writers.


    Afterthought: I'm not saying I think this is the case, but it's entirely possible that when the submitter said she got the job "because [she] was more friendly and sociable", her boss actually *meant* "because I'd rather look at a hot chick all day". Just a thought.
  • purge 2007-10-22 15:11
    I just wanted everyone to know that I didn't have the first post in this thread.
  • Anonymous 2007-10-22 15:14
    As an interesting aside: the very first programmer was a women (Ada Lovelace).
  • [twisti] 2007-10-22 15:24
    You'd have to be either really stupid or completely brainwashed to think that with all the physical differences, women brains and man brains would magically work the exact same identical way.
  • Robert S. Robbins 2007-10-22 15:38
    Why does a developer need to be sociable? Does he need to be sociable with the computers to get them to do what he wants? I would hire on the basis of technical expertise, period.

    I see some value in social networking sites for developers and IT professionals because you can benefit from "the wisdom of the crowd". Developers need to collaborate more and build up knowledge bases using wikis and blogs. Content creation software needs syntax highlighting for source code. I have to struggle to post code in a blog or wiki.

    Im currently using IT Toolbox and the ASP.NET Weblogs community site for professional networking and knowledge sharing.
  • Maddog 2007-10-22 15:51
    We have two female developers in our group of five and they are BOTH hotter than the woman in the picture. And both very smart and talented developers. A pleasure to have them as colleagues.
  • Harrow 2007-10-22 15:57
    REG: ... And what have women programmers ever done?!

    COMMANDO XERXES: Assembly language?

    REG: What?

    XERXES: A woman invented assembly language.

    REG: Oh. Yeah, yeah. They did give us that. Uh, that's true. Yeah.

    COMMANDO #3: And recursive functions.

    LORETTA: Oh, yeah, recursive functions, Reg. Remember what iteration used to be like?

    REG: Yeah. All right. I'll grant you assembly language and recursive functions are two things that women have done.

    MATTHIAS: And the compiler.

    REG: Well, yeah. Obviously the compiler. I mean, the compiler goes without saying, don't it? But apart from the assembly language, recursive functions, and the compiler--

    COMMANDO: A graphical calculator.

    XERXES: Realtime task prioritization.

    COMMANDOS: Huh? Heh? Huh...

    COMMANDO #2: Algebraic expression solver.

    COMMANDOS: Ohh...

    REG: Yeah, yeah. All right. Fair enough.

    COMMANDO #1: And the subroutine.

    COMMANDOS: Oh, yes. Yeah...

    FRANCIS: Yeah. Yeah, that's something we'd really miss, Reg, if women hadn't invented it. Huh.

    COMMANDO: A woman programmed the mercury and apollo trajectories.

    LORETTA: And they coded for the ENIAC, Reg.

    FRANCIS: Yeah, they certainly know how to program a mainframe. Let's face it. They're the only ones who could in those days.

    COMMANDOS: Hehh, heh. Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh.

    REG: All right, but apart from assembly language, recursive functions, the compiler, a graphical calculator, realtime task prioritization, the algebraic expression solver, the subroutine, those spaceship trajectories, and all the code for the ENIAC, what have women programmers ever done?

    XERXES: Invented COBOL.

    REG: Oh. COBOL? Shut up!

    -- from Monty Python's Life of Babbage
  • death 2007-10-22 16:00
    Vechni:
    @death:
    are you a hardware engineer?

    Nope. Life made a software developer out of me:P

    Vechni:

    "A whole byte is written and read [to a drive] less saving electricity(energy)."
    Data isn't read or written one byte at time. Also, typically it's guys who talk about how to balance the national debt, yet don't know how to balance their check book... seems other joined the club too!

    The worse that it is not written by byte, a whole block may be wasted... Yeah, Ill do my math up carefully next time I invent a creative excuse to my name choice.

    Vechni:

    You can allocate 4gigs of memory, or 4 bytes of memory, same electricy.

    Assuming that ram is used just for your data. Witch it isn't. Swapping eats energy. handling that extra byte spends extra energy.

    Vechni:
    Finally, other than typing it on your keyboard, appending 5 chars to a string consumes no more electricty than having sent the original string to this website.

    Umm. It does. It costs 5 more bytes of bandwidth, more CPU cycles in every router that touches it etc. I did not say electricity. I said ENERGY. There is no such thing as free work. All work spends energy. Calming that you can do x work and x+5 work with same energy violates the laws of physics. Somebody is not seeing the big picture here ;)
  • JC Denton 2007-10-22 16:04
    dmitriy:

    I am a male software developer, and these two comments made me cringe. Of course women can do math, and of course women can be programmers. I bet that for every Paula Bean there are dozens of excellent female programmers.


    <pedantic mode>
    Let's say that's true it wouldn't work. Laws of averages you know. The Paula Bean would just be worse and those Excellent female coders closer to average than excellent.
    Of course, the plural of anecdote is not data..
    </pedantic mode>

    During college and at the workplace I have met a total of four female coders
    1. Makes a point of proving she's better than all the men in her class and going for top marks but isn't sexist.
    2.Codes in HTML and VB6
    3.Codes in C++ but makes a point of avoiding use of pointers anywhere so as not to complicate things.
    4.Ex-collegue. Didn't know about classes having classes as members and the member classes having member classes (ad nauseam).

    I can't think of a single male colleague or student who've I met and made a point of becoming a developer or is passionate about coding and is a poor coder.

    Captcha:alarm. Certainly, there is a female in the office.
  • Maddog 2007-10-22 16:08
    re: 'but I can't say "that Asian guy", because skin color is a protected class'

    Since when does the presumed geography of one's place of birth and/or ancestry have anything specific to do with one's skin color? People from Asia have a tremendous range of skin tones, as do people from Europe. Just compare the skin tone of someone whose ancestors came from southern Spain to one whose ancestors came from Norway.

    By the way, people from parts of India are often considered to be "Aryan" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_race, which is what the Germans considered themselves to be.

    So this whole notion of "protected classes" based on color, ethnicity, ancestral geography, etc. is hogwash
  • BrownHornet 2007-10-22 16:22
    Robert S. Robbins:
    Why does a developer need to be sociable? Does he need to be sociable with the computers to get them to do what he wants? I would hire on the basis of technical expertise, period.
    The article states that the company is so small that most of the employees share a single office. In this sitaution, being sociable would be pretty important (at least more than it would in a larger company with a typical cube farm for developers). Also, in a company this small, it is highly likely that developers regularly deal with non-techies (sales, executives, etc.) and probably with customers too.
  • Andrew 2007-10-22 16:25
    Doug#1:
    Girls can do math now?


    How else are you going to multiply?
  • Phil 2007-10-22 16:47
    Did the boss even bother to mention that cootie shots were part of the benefits package? That might have changed his mind.
  • akatherder 2007-10-22 16:59
    Robert S. Robbins:
    Why does a developer need to be sociable? Does he need to be sociable with the computers to get them to do what he wants? I would hire on the basis of technical expertise, period.


    Therein lies a critical flaw with far too many programmers.
  • yetihehe 2007-10-22 17:03
    Ehh, You won't believe me. I had a girl on my CS course. She was the smartest from other girls (7 of them against 80 men). Sze was smarter than many other students and had the biggest boobs I've seen IRL. Her name in english would be Pretty. It's such a coincidence (name-boobs) it's already hard to believe without including her CS skills
  • swordfishBob 2007-10-22 17:13
    Some years ago we interviewed (well, the IT manager interviewed) for a system operator and a network / PC support person. Among the applicants, the one with some actual experience with networks and Windows NT was an attractive young female. This posed a problem. The system operator job was meant to double as secretary to the IT manager (not that it was in the job description) and he didn't want a male secretary.
    So, the positions were rearranged before they were filled.
    In the meantime, the IT manager got fired as some of his past incompetence was revealed to the rest of senior management. We eventually got through the process for the work visa required for this applicant. Of course she didn't turn out as technically competent as the IT manager had claimed, but did make herself useful.
  • Loren Pechtel 2007-10-22 17:13
    While I know there are some competent women in IT the experiences I had in school (I have yet to have a female co-worker in IT--probably due to spending nearly 20 years at one small outfit where much of the time I've been it for IT) could easily explain his attitude.

    They were few and far between in school and every one I knew wasn't worth anything and generally wasn't doing her own schoolwork. I know this doesn't prove they are all bad but I could easily see someone becoming very biased through such experiences.
  • smxlong 2007-10-22 17:14
    ViciousPsicle:
    When the interviewer asked him if he had any questions about the company or the team, he asked, "So there aren't any women on this team, right?" Yeah, he didn't get an offer.


    You HAVE to ask further questions when somebody says something like that. Maybe he was expressing his disappointment that there didn't seem to be any women on the team!

    If there is true prejudice there, it is quite easy to shake it out. But you can't just assume.
  • Ben4jammin 2007-10-22 17:18
    akatherder:
    Robert S. Robbins:
    Why does a developer need to be sociable? Does he need to be sociable with the computers to get them to do what he wants? I would hire on the basis of technical expertise, period.


    Therein lies a critical flaw with far too many programmers.


    Agreed. I am in networking/hardware support rather than developement, but the arguement still holds. I deal with people more than machines.
    Not to mention that the HR PEOPLE are the ones that hold sway over promotions, pay raises, etc. Or the other PEOPLE in executive management that could make my life a living hell if they so choose.
    Considering the preconceived notions of many about IT folk being "anti-social" to begin with, feeding that notion can often be equated with career suicide.
  • Shanna 2007-10-22 17:21
    James:
    Dammit, beaten to the punch again. I just wanted to point out that the story doesn't give enough context to call this one a WTF. Frankly, and I'm really glad I'm saying this anonymously (my wife would smack me), I've had enough experiences with women who fall into the victim culture so far that anybody calling them a "girl" (even if the male candidate was 50 and the submitter was 25) takes offense as if she were a black man in the Jim Crow south being called "boy". The victim culture has made it taboo to identify people by their visible characteristics if they're defined in a "protected class": I can say "that guy with the black hair" to distinguish him from the person standing next to him, but I can't say "that Asian guy", because skin color is a protected class.

    Besides which, I'd say that today any guy with a technical career is allowed to be surprised that he has girls/women/females as co-workers; not because he thinks they're not smart enough (that would be both sexist and stupid), but because he's capable of noticing and commenting on a trend, i.e. that a disproportionate percentage of people who study a technical track are men. In my office of ~30 people, there's 1 (!) female programmer and two or three female tech writers.


    Afterthought: I'm not saying I think this is the case, but it's entirely possible that when the submitter said she got the job "because [she] was more friendly and sociable", her boss actually *meant* "because I'd rather look at a hot chick all day". Just a thought.


    It was hard to give good context for this story, but my boss was actually quite offended by the candidate's tone. He was more offended than I was... I thought it was funny when he told me afterwards (or I wouldn't have posted it here). Both myself and the other candidate were ~25ish at the time. They decided not to hire him the first round because he fit all of the geek stereotypes (scruffy, unable to communicate well, blah blah). Thanks for assuming I'm hot, though, I like that.

    We ended up hiring an intern instead, and I became the lead developer for about two years, going with the company from 6 or 7 people in one office to just under 25 in a much larger building. And being instrumental in getting the software to the point where we landed a 4 million dollar contract.

    The company was always very women-friendly; socially it was one of the best places I've ever worked. We made plenty of off-color comments and no one cared much. I don't really believe that trying to attract women to your company by being afraid of them is any more appropriate than trying to keep them out by acting like they are idiots.

    In other words, you can suck it. :)
  • Bruce W 2007-10-22 17:35
    My previous job, an IT standards-setting group for a global company was an industry anomaly: my group (about 200 people) was about 40 percent women. My team at one time was myself and 4 women. The women usually kicked most of the men's butts as far as work ethic, troubleshooting skills, breadth of tech knowledge, and ability to master new technology.
  • jkohen 2007-10-22 17:37
    yetihehe:
    Sze was smarter than many other students and had the biggest boobs I've seen IRL. Her name in english would be Pretty. It's such a coincidence (name-boobs) it's already hard to believe without including her CS skills


    Post pictures or shut up!

    Fake edit: Sorry, wrong forum!
  • d. t. north 2007-10-22 17:49
    Kelly:
    Well I'm a developer, so...hi.

    And John Awkward - I could forward you some hilarious emails from guys in my office mixing up "your" and "you're." Or the guy who emailed me fixes to his broken stored procedures and apologized for the "incontinence." Too bad it's not worth the effort to find your previous comment posts and find all of the minor grammatical errors, which I'm sure exist.


    I will fully admit my mistakes in the areas of spelling and grammar. I suck at both. I work for a Civil Engineering company, and my assistant got me a mug for christmas last year that reads "Your a Looser". Sad part is she had to explain it to me...I didn't get it at first.
  • rqm 2007-10-22 17:51
    Very productive, I mean this guy has obviously never worked with a competent female programmer -so- let's make sure he stays that way by not hiring him. Very clever.

    And this guy *was* a better programmer than Shanna but he was rejected because...

    he fit all of the geek stereotypes (scruffy, unable to communicate well, blah blah)


    So discriminating against people with Asperger syndrome is alright, it is expressing surprise about the admittedly rare female programmers which is an unforgivable sin. Really smooth.

    In other words, you can suck it. :)


    And mature.
  • antiPC 2007-10-22 18:01
    There are three possible reasons why there are a disproportionate number of men in IT:

    1) Women do not have the abilities required for IT.
    2) There are no differences between men and women - men are actively holding down/discouraging women, and if this stopped, the ratio would immediately rise to ~50-50.
    3) Some combination of the above two.

    Number 1 is false because obviously there are talented women in IT. So you either have to admit to number 2 or 3. Number 2 is society's official version, and number 3 contains some truth from number 1. Since even partly accepting number 1 is heresy to PC society, you are left with number 2 as the only "acceptable" reason.

    Think about this for a second and then consider if men will ever stop getting blamed for the IT male/female disproportion.
  • its me 2007-10-22 18:31
    antiPC:
    There are three possible reasons why there are a disproportionate number of men in IT:

    1) Women do not have the abilities required for IT.
    2) There are no differences between men and women - men are actively holding down/discouraging women, and if this stopped, the ratio would immediately rise to ~50-50.
    3) Some combination of the above two.

    Number 1 is false because obviously there are talented women in IT. So you either have to admit to number 2 or 3. Number 2 is society's official version, and number 3 contains some truth from number 1. Since even partly accepting number 1 is heresy to PC society, you are left with number 2 as the only "acceptable" reason.

    Think about this for a second and then consider if men will ever stop getting blamed for the IT male/female disproportion.


    You're leaving out:

    4) There's something inherent about technology that appeals to more men than women.

    In contrast to #1, #4 is saying women have the ability, but in general fewer women than men have an interest in pursuing a career in technology. The reason for this difference in interest could be sexist, i.e. lack of tech/science guidance for school-age girls, or just normal differences between the sexes.

    -Me
  • kr 2007-10-22 18:40
    GeekGirl:
    The terms guys and girls are not parallel in meaning. "Boys and girls" are, "guys and gals" are, "men and women" are, and "ladies and gentlemen" are. It's not a rant on sexism, I just wanted to point out that the two terms are not equal.


    "Gals"? Y'all want some grits with that?

    No one uses "gals" outside of the South. It's "guys and girls" in most places.
  • James 2007-10-22 19:44
    Maybe I'm more practical than most boys. I always preferred working with girls. Why? Because I like girls. I really like girls.

    So, if I get to do cool tech work, work with smart people, AND those people are girls ... wow, that's perfect.
  • James 2007-10-22 19:49
    By the way ... count me in the camp that doesn't use "girl" in a derogatory fashion. To me, "woman" just sounds far too serious, even matronly. "Girl" is more fun.

    Notice in my post, I refer to myself as a "boy".

    I'm 41. :)
  • CoyneT 2007-10-22 19:50
    death:
    Unfortunately the tone of the statement is not visible from text. Saying the same thing with a surprised voice is excusable, some male developers have never seen a female developer, thats no reason to decide the the guy is sexist. [snip]


    Sorry, but I can't agree. It's too easy for the tone-of-surprise version to be taken as another problem, which might equate to: "I'm SO PRIMO and you hired a GIRL instead of ME???"

    Even if that isn't taken as sexist, it still suggests someone who isn't a team player; who is sure they know the best way of doing everything. In my experience, this tends to indicate people who don't know the best way and won't learn.

    Aside from which, the tone-of-surprise still comes off sexist (in my opinion).
  • webhamster 2007-10-22 20:00
    Tp:
    He should have been thrilled by the idea of actually having girls at the workplace!! Damn fool!!



    Yeah, but no fishing off the company pier... ;(
  • Joje 2007-10-22 20:15
    It's truly strange to hear from modern techies that men are better at programming and math than women are since a lot (a majority even?) of early programmers were women.
  • Gerkin 2007-10-22 20:20
    ViciousPsicle:
    When the interviewer asked him if he had any questions about the company or the team, he asked, "So there aren't any women on this team, right?" Yeah, he didn't get an offer.


    You HAVE to ask further questions when somebody says something like that. Maybe he was expressing his disappointment that there didn't seem to be any women on the team!

    If there is true prejudice there, it is quite easy to shake it out. But you can't just assume.


    or maybe he's been on the pointy end of a sexual harassment lawsuit over a throwaway comment in the past and wants to avoid a repeat by not working with any women ever again.
  • Ant 2007-10-22 23:18
    The first person "write" a computer program and in fact she was a mathematician as well - was a woman:
    It's clear that woman still face the same prejudices more than 100 years later.
    http://www.lc-ps.org/Departments/Technology/technologyArticles/Ada.htm
  • anon 2007-10-23 00:48
    its me:
    antiPC:
    There are three possible reasons why there are a disproportionate number of men in IT:

    1) Women do not have the abilities required for IT.
    2) There are no differences between men and women - men are actively holding down/discouraging women, and if this stopped, the ratio would immediately rise to ~50-50.
    3) Some combination of the above two.

    Number 1 is false because obviously there are talented women in IT. So you either have to admit to number 2 or 3. Number 2 is society's official version, and number 3 contains some truth from number 1. Since even partly accepting number 1 is heresy to PC society, you are left with number 2 as the only "acceptable" reason.

    Think about this for a second and then consider if men will ever stop getting blamed for the IT male/female disproportion.


    You're leaving out:

    4) There's something inherent about technology that appeals to more men than women.

    In contrast to #1, #4 is saying women have the ability, but in general fewer women than men have an interest in pursuing a career in technology. The reason for this difference in interest could be sexist, i.e. lack of tech/science guidance for school-age girls, or just normal differences between the sexes.

    -Me

    There are waaaay too many confounding factors to label the imbalance in genders as something to do with innate gender differences. There are many societal factors that limit women in CS, and until/unless many of those are resolved, making any judgment about innate differences is a bad idea.

    (Some) Confounding factors:
    1) Few role models: Women may not want to join a field where they are the only girl. Trust me, there are times when it sucks to work in a basement for hours on end with only 14 other guys for company. There are probably plenty of women who, when given a choice between two interesting careers, choose to pursue one with more gender balance. This is roughly the 'critical mass' theory of social influence on under-represented groups. For an example of this theory in practice, the number of women in law and medicine in the 70's shows a sharp rise right around the time that more professors teaching intro-level classes were women.

    2) Overt Sexism. 'Nuff said.

    3) Unconscious pressure to conform to social norms. Various studies have shown this is pervasive from infancy onwards. Two of the more notable: (Study 1) Babies, it turns out, look surprisingly asexual. Researchers dressed a baby up in gender neutral colors and filmed it (I don't know if it was actually a boy or a girl) for several minutes. They then showed adults the film; some adults were told the baby was a girl, others that it was a boy. The adults were then asked to describe what the baby's emotional state was at different times. For those watching a "girl", the baby was more likely to be 'shy', 'scared', 'timid', while for those watching a "boy", the same film supposedly depicted a baby who was 'angry', 'aggressive', and 'annoyed'. So children are exposed to, if not overt, at least unintentional prejudices and pressures to conform to stereotypes basically from birth. (Study 2) Parents encourage their sons more than their daughters to pursue math and science in middle school, even when the study controlled for the sons and daughters self-reported interest in the subjects (i.e, two equally interested children will be encouraged to pursue their interest differently based on gender). It's no wonder that fewer women are 'interested in computers' at the end of all this.

    Now, it could be that innate differences really do account for a difference in how the genders approach computers. The problem is, with the compounding factors listed above, in the status quo we can't even accurately determine which gender is innately more interested in computers. Given that women initially were very involved with computers, it's plausible that in the absence of the 3 social pressures described above, more women than men would be in IT. Such a reversal of traditional gender imbalance is already happening in college application rates, and both human and veterinary medicine.

    As to why I am really, really not happy with proponents of the 'innate differences' theory (Larry Summers, I'm talking to you): it provides an easy out for social reform. The 3 social issues that I outlined above are very hard to fix, expensive to address, and unpleasant to face (no one likes to think that they discriminated against their own children). 'Inherent gender differences' provides an explanation that requires no action and allows society as a whole to declare that equality of opportunity has been achieved. This is, in fact, the same line of thought that continues to spur on eugenicists and racial supremacists the world over. 'Genetic differences' have been used to rationalize far worse things than unconscious transmission of gender roles, and the historic tendency of these theories to be used as just that (rationalizations of social wrongs) should give pause to anyone who is a loud proponent of the theory UNLESS THEY HAVE CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT CONTROLS FOR ALL KNOWN SOCIETAL FACTORS. I emphasize the last bit because I am not advocating suppressing the truth because it could be used badly; I am arguing against unsubstantiated speculation that is used to justify and entrench social inequity.
  • marc 2007-10-23 06:59
    You think dudes get weird with women "in IT". Just wait when there's a gay one who doesn't quite fit and gets along with the women just fine.

    "Hey dude, check this out! Pizza, beer and porn. Heaven, dude!" - "Nah, thanks. I'd rather get myself a salad, some evian and GQ - Ewan McGregor is on the cover!!!"

    Seriously, how many of you work with gay programmers? And no, not "dude, that's gay" programmers, but rather "dude, he's actually gay" programmers.

    Captcha: pinball - wheeee!!!
  • wtf 2007-10-23 07:29
    this is ridiculous. so the guy had prejudices, omg lol hlep meee...
    his remark could have been a joke or such... or just a way to talk up the girls... sure, not a very good one but still. obviously he isn't the most sociable.
    that is still no reason for him to not get the job.

    dmitriy:
    muahaha:
    so the real wtf is they actually hired a girl, right?

    Doug#1:
    Girls can do math now?


    I am a male software developer, and these two comments made me cringe. Of course women can do math, and of course women can be programmers. I bet that for every Paula Bean there are dozens of excellent female programmers.

    well hello, mister obvious.
    you may be a male software developer, but you are still a pussy...
    how can you take those seriously at all?
  • Laura 2007-10-23 07:44
    Half of the female developers I knew in college were only less pretty than the girls in men's magazines because they didn't have time for make-up and hairspray.
  • John 2007-10-23 08:04
    You have to read these "people" stories rather carefully - there's no diabolical code to look at so you have to take them on trust and they're *always* written from one person's POV - invariably someone with an axe to grind.

    Submitter was not present in the interview. So the comment about hiring girls is second or third hand and probably paraphrased - by a boss who just rejected a candidate from a job interview - or maybe got rejected *by* the candidate.

    People do not hire back-room staff (and that's what you leet haXorz really are) based on being friendly/sociable, unless there's nepotism going on. Submitter would not be contacting daily WTF if she was beneficiary of nepotism.

    So that only leaves one option: sumbitter was not one of those "just as good as any man" female empolyees, but in fact more the "just as bad as any man" kind. Candidate found out that the company had made him the victim of "positive" discrimination and walked out.

    Oh, and here's a puzzle for you. When does a company hire one employee and then suddenly realise they need to hire another a month later?
  • JC Denton 2007-10-23 08:20
    At least by not hiring women you'll avoid situations such as this:
    http://www.explosm.net/comics/1060/

    Captcha:Doom Doomed the guy was for expressing his surprise
  • Teslzl 2007-10-23 08:25
    KattMan:
    Can you believe some people can even exist in this world with prejudices like that and still look like a productive member of society? Actually thinking about it I can. Most seemingly productive members of society have prejudices just as unjustified as this one.

    I agree, why has society come to a point where women have been taken out of the kitchen. Damn females demanding all the social and jobrights without giving an inch. Seriously though women get to much and give to little while underperforming in many jobs
  • Teslzl 2007-10-23 08:34
    The day women stop nagging about sexism they might finally fit inn. Women that demand posters of babes removed, or can't take guys chatting about asses or tits etc should go back to granny because the same women will oogle a guys ass in a heartbeat. Sexism is bullshit unless enforced by power.
  • Teslzl 2007-10-23 08:41
    Robert S. Robbins:
    Why does a developer need to be sociable? Does he need to be sociable with the computers to get them to do what he wants? I would hire on the basis of technical expertise, period.

    At my workplace I can turn around now and see 5 females, 2 project leads and 20 developers all on one project oh yea and the software architects. Go in the next room and find the same amount of people, go upstairs and find twice that amount of IT people with another 10 or so girls. Next door is the sales-department with some unbelievably hot girls as well.

    Daily you have to confer, discuss, talk and go over projects, documentation and what not with these people where being a social extrovert personality helps a lot. Joint lunches talking about anything but work and so forth. Oh and if you want to lay one of these girls you better have some socialskills because most females I see in IT here excell in the social department more than guys, though most of them try to much to be a "girl in IT".
  • MattHuntington 2007-10-23 08:51
    zip:
    "girls can do math now?" jokes are one step above "omg pix plz," guys

    http://www.xkcd.com/322/


    Heh, I was thinking of that exact same comic when I was reading the comments to this post.
  • Jason Stein 2007-10-23 09:16
    Haven't read the rest of the comments, and technically its syntax, but I'm pretty sure you meant posts, not post's -- unless they own you or something. This is possibly the most ironic thing I've seen posted. If you meant it as such kudos, if not ... sorry.
  • Nutmeg Programmer 2007-10-23 09:18
    Why does this remark make me think of pandas?
  • nerdierthanu 2007-10-23 09:45
    I prefer to be called a chick... am I crazy or is this the most responded to WTF ever?
  • Jon 2007-10-23 09:54
    I'd rather work with more women because most of the guys whose lockers were located in the CS wing had really bad BO. I had 3 women in my program at the start. None completed. One was obsessed with perfect marks (dropped out when her average hit 80%), the other two were amongst a good chunk of our class that really didn't know what they were doing and probably picked the wrong program (or school for that matter).

    Go go no B O!
  • JC Denton 2007-10-23 10:01
    nerdierthanu:
    I prefer to be called a chick... am I crazy or is this the most responded to WTF ever?


    Still a long way to go. The cold fusion flame-war is probably a contender though: http://worsethanfailure.com/Comments/Poor_Mr_0x2e__O_0x27_Hare_.aspx?
    We'll get there.

    Captcha: kungfu. Please, there are ladies present.
  • JC Denton 2007-10-23 10:01
    nerdierthanu:
    I prefer to be called a chick... am I crazy or is this the most responded to WTF ever?


    Still a long way to go. The cold fusion flame-war is probably a contender though: http://worsethanfailure.com/Comments/Poor_Mr_0x2e__O_0x27_Hare_.aspx?
    We'll get there.

    Captcha: kungfu. Please, there are ladies present.
  • Sherri 2007-10-23 10:48
    There are several female developers besides me at the company I currently work at, so yes... we do exist. I've also found that the percent who are actually good is much the same as among men.

    Sometimes though, I see that the women have to work harder to get recognition. At one of my previous jobs, one of the male developers had a blog on Blogger and my boss thought that was so impressive (I think he even said 'leet' *groan*). I mentioned my own blog, personal websites and my paid article published by Zend, and I got a "that's nice" response. But maybe that was just one company, my current employer gives credit where it's due.
  • JM 2007-10-23 10:50
    Lynx:
    There ARE females in IT [...] Some of them are very good at it -- in many cases better than me [... etc ... ]


    Hmm. I think I should introduce you to someone who I used to work for. She started up a company from scratch, built it up over 20 years, is very personable (and very demanding and absolutely fearsome in some circumstances). She is also famous for telling a newspaper re. some government committee that she was on at the time re. the size of a services contract "ohh 800 Million that's chickfeed".

    She later sold her company and is now worth in excess of 100 Million personally, just short of her 50th birthday.

    She was also - as I remember - very technically capable.

    I think a little attitude adjustment might be in order here.
  • Zack 2007-10-23 11:41
    A couple short anecdotes about women coders I know.

    My small 3-5 team used to have 2 female coders. One was a very quiet swede who was quite competent. If she was a little more outspoken she would have been known as excellent. As it was, she was just known as competent because more assertive people would dominate meetings. (Using a second language made her a bit hesitant to speak up)

    My girlfriend worked as database programmer, system analyst, and programmer. She makes even more than me, and I am a MIT grad with 10 years experience and an above average salary.

    Lastly I know of another girl from MIT who is now a professional programmer. In school she was known for her beauty. (She came up in discussions with other MIT grads not even from the same decade as being the person we know with the most natural presence and charm) She is both smart and competent, yet she has the type of presence that would drive most socially awkward programmers to distraction. Luckily her company has a good number of female developers.

    All three of those women would be able to out perform most males considered their senior. Sex doesn't matter, ability does. And ability can reside in anyone.

    Case in point: The best programmer I ever met was a high school drop out from East Germany who was entirely self taught. Most places would not even interview him because of his lack of degree. He was the only supercoder I have ever worked with. I saw him crank out 100 working classes in a weekend. All coded from scratch. He was a one man programming team. Last I heard he was getting roughly twice what I make in Manhattan.

    Some people just have talent and you can't tell who from sex or degree.
  • Meh 2007-10-23 11:54
    "post's" isn't possessive. It'd be "posts". But who cares. See, I just started a sentence with a conjunction just like you did with "And" which isn't grammatically correct, but this is a forum which is meant to be vernacular so grammar doesn't matter.

    Anyway, Kelly, I believe the "girls can do math jokes" are just jokes. Not meant to be sexist statements.

    I work with a lot of women in I.T. Many of them are very competent and beyond. I've also worked with women that whine about sexism because they are passed up for projects, promotions, etc. when across the hall 75% of the staff are female. The boss is female. There's a WTF.

  • my name 2007-10-23 12:10
    Do you remember those days when dailywtf posted Real WTFs?
    It was so long ago. I'd better go and read about brillant paula.

    Captcha: atari. why not zx spectrum?

  • ell0bo 2007-10-23 13:04
    Only ever met two working in the field... first went from cute to annoying very quickly when she realized I could help her fix her problems faster then searching on Google for the solutions. The second restored my faith in female programmers.

    All of the girls that I had in class with me in college seemed to be heading to the government jobs. Take that as you will.
  • antiPC 2007-10-23 13:19
    There are waaaay too many confounding factors to label the imbalance in genders as something to do with innate gender differences. There are many societal factors that limit women in CS, and until/unless many of those are resolved, making any judgment about innate differences is a bad idea.


    But if there are innate gender differences, then you will never know because the situation will never be resolved to your satisfaction to make that conclusion. If innate gender differences were admitted to, IN THE VERY LEAST, then all these discrimination claims would be put in doubt.

    Men and women are different. Things like pain toleration, longevity, intelligence (verbal vs. spatial), disease susceptibility, etc. The actual brain structure is different. These are NOT societally influenced things. The Raven's Progressive Matrices test is a great example: no words, no cultural bias, nothing - just pattern recognition and abstract reasoning - males outperform females. On a verbal test the results would likely be the opposite.
  • NK0d3R 2007-10-23 14:40
    Franz Kafka:
    Matthew:
    Lynx:
    There ARE females in IT (I'm not using the term "girls" because some of them are old enough to be my mother!). Some of them are very good at it -- in many cases better than me (yes, I know that can be taken to mean I suck...).


    I agree, "girls" is so condescending. I prefer dames.



    I use girls because it pairs well with 'guys'. Guys and women? Yecch.


    The pair is "guys and gals".

    When you get to be as old as my mom, you don't mind using "girls" again. I guess it makes her feel younger.
  • Dave 2007-10-23 14:47
    pitchingchris:
    Dave:
    There are 14 people in our team, 7 of whom are of the female persuasion; two are managers and one is a team leader. It's the most women I've ever worked with in an IT job.



    And three of them are hot.


    Sounds like Dave has it made. How does he get any work done ?


    Work? It is to laugh. I have successfully mastered the eyes-up-here, though, which helps.
  • NotanEnglishMajor 2007-10-23 14:55
    The reason there are fewer women than men in IT is not that women have inferior abilities. It is because they have superior insight. Men are attracted to tech jobs simply because the tech is cool. Women have enough insight to know that these jobs are all being "offshored" to various asian countries anyway and they prefer to persue careers with better security and opportunites for advancement.

    -Notan
  • anon 2007-10-23 15:29
    antiPC:

    But if there are innate gender differences, then you will never know because the situation will never be resolved to your satisfaction to make that conclusion. If innate gender differences were admitted to, IN THE VERY LEAST, then all these discrimination claims would be put in doubt.


    The whole question is whether or not there are innate gender differences, and if there are what sort of trend in IT they would encourage. Without knowing that, it is unclear whether discrimination is worse or better than it currently appears, because the distribution of men and women in IT in the absence of social issues is unknown. Assuming that innate differences support the status quo is a cop out to avoid dealing with real, documented, and undesirable problems.

    antiPC:

    Men and women are different. Things like pain toleration, longevity, intelligence (verbal vs. spatial), disease susceptibility, etc. The actual brain structure is different. These are NOT societally influenced things. The Raven's Progressive Matrices test is a great example: no words, no cultural bias, nothing - just pattern recognition and abstract reasoning - males outperform females. On a verbal test the results would likely be the opposite.


    Men and women are different physiologically. With the exception of intelligence, the things you mention basically fall into that category. On a cognitive level, there is no clear evidence for a gender difference in intelligence overall or intelligence types. This is a common misconception that has been debunked by a considerable amount of research.* Not that it's a closed debate by any means, but there is a growing consensus among those who study this phenomenon that there are no innate gender differences.
    Re Raven's Matrices, you are probably referring to a paper by Rushton, Skuy and Bons which claimed that the test had no cultural bias. Interestingly, they used this conclusion to try to show that certain races are innately more intelligent than others. Their research was called in to question recently in a paper by Steven F. Cronshaw, Leah K. Hamilton, Betty R. Onyura and Andrew S. Winston, which challenged the methodology of that study.

    Specific analysis of gender and Raven's Matrices was done by Richard Lynn, Juri Allik, and Paul Irwing, who found that as children aged, the direction of gender differences on sections of the test reversed to align with social stereotypes (i.e., when younger, girls did better on sections that would stereotypically be considered better suited for guys). This seems like an indication that perhaps the continuous exposure to social pressures, rather than innate differences, might be a cause of performance differences on the test later in life.

    *For those who want to look into this research more, you might find the following excerpt from a recent meta-analysis of gender and intelligence helpful (everyone else, you can stop reading at this point):
    ""One of the first to adopt this position [that there are no innate differences in intelligence] was Terman (1916, pp.69-70) who wrote of the American standardization sample of the Stanford-Binet test on approximately 1,000 4- to 16-year-olds that girls obtained a slightly higher average IQ than boys but 'the superiority of girls over boys is so slight ... that for practical purposes it would seem negligible'. In the next decade Spearman (1923) asserted that there is no sex difference in g. Cattell (1971, p. 131) concluded that, 'it is now demonstrated by countless and large samples that on the two main general cognitive abilities--fluid and crystallized intelligence--men and women, boys and girls, show no significant differences'. Brody (1992, p. 323) contended that, 'gender differences in general intelligence are small and virtually non-existent'. Jensen (1998, p. 531) calculated sex differences in g on five samples and concluded that, 'no evidence was found for sex differences in the mean level of g'. Similarly: 'there is no sex difference in general intelligence worth speaking of' (Mackintosh, 1996, p. 567); 'the overall pattern suggests that there are no sex differences, or only a very small advantage of boys and men, in average IQ scores' (Geary, 1998, p. 310); 'most investigators concur on the conclusion that the sexes manifest comparable means on general intelligence' (Lubinski, 2000, p. 416); 'sex differences have not been found in general intelligence' (Halpern, 2000, p. 218); 'we can conclude that there is no sex difference in general intelligence' (Colom, Juan-Espinosa, Abad, & Garcia, 2000, p. 66); 'there are no meaningful sex differences in general intelligence' (Lippa, 2002); 'there are negligible differences in general intelligence' (Jorm, Anstey, Christensen, & Rodgers, 2004, p. 7); and 'the evidence that there is no sex difference in general ability is overwhelming' (Anderson, 2004, p. 829).

    The question of whether there is a sex difference in average general intelligence raises the problem of how general intelligence should be defined. There have been three principal answers to this question. First, general intelligence can be defined as the IQ obtained on omnibus intelligence tests such as the Wechslers. The IQ obtained from these is the average of the scores on a number of different abilities including verbal comprehension and reasoning, immediate memory, visualization, and spatial and perceptual abilities. This is the definition normally used by educational, clinical, and occupational psychologists. When this definition is adopted, it has been asserted by Halpern (2000) and reaffirmed by Anderson (2004, p. 829) that 'the overall score does not show a sex difference' Halpern (2000, p. 90). Second, general intelligence can be defined as reasoning ability or fluid intelligence. This definition has been adopted by Mackintosh (1996, p. 564; Mackintosh, 1998a) who concludes that there is no sex difference in reasoning ability. Third, general intelligence can be defined as the g obtained as the general factor derived by factor analysis from a number of tests. This definition was initially proposed by Spearman (1923, 1946) and was first adopted to analyse whether there is a sex difference in g by Jensen and Reynolds (1983). They analysed the American standardization of the WISC-R on 6- to 16-year-olds and found that this showed boys to have a higher g by d = .16 (standard deviation units), equivalent to 2.4 IQ points (this advantage is highly statistically significant). In a second study of this issue using a different method for measuring g, Jensen (1998, p. 539) analysed five data sets and obtained rather varied results, in three of which males obtained a higher g than females by 2.83, 0.18, and 5.49 IQ points, while in two of which females obtained a higher g than males by 7.91 and 0.03 IQ points. Jensen handled these discrepancies by averaging the five results to give a negligible male advantage of .11 IQ points, from which he concluded that there is no sex difference in g. This conclusion has been endorsed by Colom and his colleagues in Spain (Colom, Garcia, Juan-Espinoza, & Abad, 2002, Colom et al., 2000)."
  • BrownHornet 2007-10-23 15:32
    JC Denton:
    nerdierthanu:
    I prefer to be called a chick... am I crazy or is this the most responded to WTF ever?


    Still a long way to go. The cold fusion flame-war is probably a contender though: http://worsethanfailure.com/Comments/Poor_Mr_0x2e__O_0x27_Hare_.aspx?
    We'll get there.

    Captcha: kungfu. Please, there are ladies present.

    I think the job interview with riddles (with the infamous red or blue hat problem) is the reigning champ.
  • anon 2007-10-23 15:36
    Addendum to previous post:

    The same article that I quoted at the end of the last post has a section on what seem to be Raven's Matrices (it refers to them as Progressive Matrices):
    "The issue of whether there are any sex differences on the Progressive Matrices has frequently been discussed and it has been virtually universally concluded that there is no difference in the mean scores obtained by males and females. This has been one of the major foundations for the conclusion that there is no sex difference in reasoning ability or in g"
  • v 2007-10-23 16:08
    Kelly:

    Of course the comments on this post highlight the fact that the idea that women are less smart at math and computers is alive and well, unfortunately. I majored in applied math and minored in CS. And I'd be willing to take on Doug or Welbog in a smartness contest any day.

    But I'm guessing they'd both whup yer ass in a competition to find the person best able to understand sarcasm...Whoooooosh!
  • Michael 2007-10-23 16:37
    Don't worry, I'm only here to be awkward. And you can try to find grammar mistakes in my post's, but you won't find any.

    There's one.
  • antiPC 2007-10-23 16:50
    Specific analysis of gender and Raven's Matrices was done by Richard Lynn, Juri Allik, and Paul Irwing, who found that as children aged, the direction of gender differences on sections of the test reversed to align with social stereotypes (i.e., when younger, girls did better on sections that would stereotypically be considered better suited for guys). This seems like an indication that perhaps the continuous exposure to social pressures, rather than innate differences, might be a cause of performance differences on the test later in life.


    How can a test without words, just shapes, be influenced in any way by society? If you have the ability, you will do well, if not, you won't. You can't be educated for a test like this, you can't be discouraged, it is based on your inherent intelligence.

    Studies also show that early childhood education greatly benefits the IQ of small children, but by the time they reach their late teens, its loses that correlation and is highly correlated by genetics (parents). The intelligence of separated twins and adopted children show this.

    Based on the nature of the test, and the fact that adult intelligence is highly based on genetics, it would seem culture is not the case.
  • Phill 2007-10-23 17:39
    Wow, there was some bollox being talked on this thread!
    Quite obviously, there will be anecdotes for both competent and incompetent female IT staff; just as there are for men.
    On average though, men are better at IT than women, and women are better suited to other professions than men. It's just the way our brains work, it's not sexist.
    Mind you, is it any wonder that women don't hang around when a light-hearted joke made about a name is turned into a mistakenly dogmatic, pedantic rant without purpose?
    Seriously, ladies, don't be put off by these socially unskilled nerds.
    Come work with me! I wash daily, my hair is grease free, and I write good code!

    Giggity, giggity, goo.
  • KickAss 2007-10-23 18:59
    They should require females to submit their recent photo along with their resume. ;-)

  • my name 2007-10-23 20:30
    I've not heard about IT, but i've heard that if woman wants to be 'Secretute', her photo would be neccessary.

    ---
    today's captcha is so boring, so i will not post it.
  • EnterUserNameHere 2007-10-23 22:40
    Mogri:
    The Steve Rule: in a random group of programmers [from English-speaking countries], there will be more people named Steve than females.

    (With internationalization nowadays, you need the English-speaking countries clause.)


    Odd - I would have bet on "Tom". I have ZERO Steves in my cell phone, address book, or other contacts. I can only name 3 Steves I know personally (4 if you count Colbert).

    Meanwhile, one of the teams I'm working on has 4 Tom's. (No girls, though ;) )
  • csrster 2007-10-24 02:21
    Tp:
    He should have been thrilled by the idea of actually having girls at the workplace!! Damn fool!!


    Right because "Hey chicks. Cool. Do they put out?" would have gone down so much better in the interview.
  • david 2007-10-24 02:49
    Doug#1:
    Girls can do math now?


    When my grand-dad was a young man at Lockhead, it was common for engineers to work with a calculator or a computer. Sometimes they even got married.
  • Iceman 2007-10-24 03:23
    John Awkward:
    Don't worry, I'm only here to be awkward. And you can try to find grammar mistakes in my post's, but you won't find any.


    post's?

    Sukkel :-)
  • Konamiman 2007-10-24 03:35
    I don't get the point here. I'm not native english speaker, anyway. Is there any negative sense in the word "girl"?
  • IceColdMan 2007-10-24 04:41
    Konamiman:
    I don't get the point here. I'm not native english speaker, anyway. Is there any negative sense in the word "girl"?


    Some people might deem it condescending, patronizing or even belittling.

    Captcha:yummy - a female colleague?
  • Master of Sarcasm 2007-10-24 04:54
    Michael:
    Don't worry, I'm only here to be awkward. And you can try to find grammar mistakes in my post's, but you won't find any.

    There's one.


    Ooh! You're a smart one!
  • BBQ_ribs 2007-10-24 07:04
    tsk, tsk, tsk.

    typical.

    Just 'cuz a guy uses the word "chicks" and "put out" in the same breath doesn't mean he's a chauvinist, OK?

    Some of us straight men out there also wanna get laid by our co-workers without strings attached but we're not misogynist about it.

    Oh, wait... Nevermind.
  • Taz 2007-10-24 07:29
    Dave:
    There are 14 people in our team, 7 of whom are of the female persuasion; two are managers and one is a team leader. It's the most women I've ever worked with in an IT job.

    And three of them are hot.


    Some guys have all the luck.

    As to why there are significantly less women in IT than men: women figured out early on that IT jobs suck and they'd better be left to be done by the blokes. :)
  • Bob H 2007-10-24 07:40
    "In the land of the blind the one eye'ed man is king."

    Alpha male is just the top of the food chain, even if that food chain couldn't fight it's way out of a tractor-feed paper tangle.
  • Bob H 2007-10-24 07:57
    ahgan:
    Doug#1:
    Matthew:

    I agree, "girls" is so condescending. I prefer dames.

    broads is the best!

    Better than wench?

    Tip from those with experience: never walk up to the bar and loudly declare "More beer wench!". Popularity with the female German bar manager may fall and the female Welsh barmaid may not respond kindly. Even if it was said in jest...
  • Mel 2007-10-24 08:26
    Having got 2/3 of the way through reading the comments, I'd like to add my experiences/thoughts:

    I'm the youngest of 3 girls. I spent most of my childhood playing with boys' toys and boys, or playing with computers and electronics with my dad (wrote my first program at age 7). My sisters were 'typical' girls - one of them ended up in science anyway.

    Since leaving school, I've studied CS and worked as a developer. I've generally been one of 2 or 3 females in a workplace (no matter what the size), and there were maybe 6 girls in my first class, of about 100 people. When I went back to Uni to finish my degree, I didn't spend much time on my own work - I'd generally already finished, and was helping others (yes, even boys). Every where I've worked, I've fitted in with the guys. I don't believe I've ever been treated differently because I'm a girl.

    Except: In almost every job interview I've had, I've been asked how I feel about working mostly/only with guys. If I had a problem with that, I couldn't have got where I am now.

    I hate telling guys not in IT what I do. I've had idiots trying to pick me up by trying to convince me they know more about programming than I do. Just because they're male.

    I've worked with good and great women/girls in IT, and I've worked with crap ones. Just like guys. However, I do think it's harder for a female to be *considered* good or great, because you have to first prove you don't suck.

    As for it being a good career choice long-term, it's perfect - when I have kids I'll still be working, just from home.
  • Mel 2007-10-24 08:53
    Oh - and I'm 'girl' (I mean, come on! I play on playgrounds every chance I get...), not a 'woman' and certainly not a 'gal'. I don't mind 'chick', but 'broad' or 'wench' are usually just guys taking the piss. 'Female' seems to do the job more often than not when I'm speaking, even if it does sound kinda formal. And I'm quite happy to be included in 'guys'.

    Dirty jokes or pictures at work always seemed to bother me much less than my male bosses...
  • Griglars 2007-10-24 09:44
    I worked for a company that actively had a policy not to hire women. It wasn't in writing, but the guy in charge of hiring said that he didn't hire women techs because their menstruation made them crazy and unreliable. If you challenged this assumption, he always had links to various websites (usually on Geocities and the like) that show how unstable women were, and how their brains weren't built for "complicated technical tasks beyond picking berries," and of course, the inevitable Wikipedia link to PMS...
  • Dewi 2007-10-24 09:46
    Excuse me, but I cannot feel other that offended here. No one has ever given me a comment in that direction. If you want my picture you can judge for yourself.
  • Rich 2007-10-24 11:12
    kr:

    No one uses "gals" outside of the South. It's "guys and girls" in most places.


    Now then, now then...

  • bch 2007-10-24 13:41
    Is the 'WTF' the fact that they skipped hiring a "very technically skilled" programmer so they could instead hire a "friendly and sociable" girl?

    Is "friendly and sociable" the new goal of Computer Science degrees?
  • HonestWorkingMan 2007-10-24 14:01
    Dewi:
    Excuse me, but I cannot feel other that offended here. No one has ever given me a comment in that direction. If you want my picture you can judge for yourself.


    Sounds like trying to prove the exception to prove the rule.

    After reading the majority of the comments most of the ones coming from female developers seem to be along the lines of "I've been programming since the cradle and still I'm not recognised for what's above my deep cut v-neck sweater".

    Women cause all kinds of stress and frustrations within a perfectly functioning development team so don't go and apply at my place. I like my projects finished on time and within budget thank you and my developers have distractions enough as it is.
  • Noogen 2007-10-24 14:12
    The real wtf is the line "You mean, you hired one of those GIRLS out there?"

    "It's a dude!" A very ugly dude that dress up like a woman. There's no such thing as a female developer. The proof is not being able to find one in your college class. ;)
  • theboss 2007-10-24 16:05
    girls make good programmers because they do what they are told. it is a more submissive relationship :)

    just don't have sex with them on the desk.... because you might be asking later, "was that wrong?"

  • theboss 2007-10-24 16:07
    if they dress hot then yes
  • rupert0 2007-10-24 16:35
    I bet that Shanna was not hot ;)
  • krizo 2007-10-24 17:54
    He was very technically skilled, but ended up not getting the position because I was more friendly and sociable.


    In other words, great rack.
  • Simmo 2007-10-24 18:18
    Harrow:
    REG: ... And what have women programmers ever done?!

    <snip/>


    -- from Monty Python's Life of Babbage


    Pure. Genius. Thank you for making my day
  • Simmo 2007-10-24 18:22
    Sean:
    Personal anecdotal statistics:

    I've met 5 women in IT in my life. 4 of the 5 were incompetent jackasses who wouldn't even pass a level 100 CS course if I was running the classroom. Only 1/5th of women who try to be in IT are actually good at it.

    I've met countless men in IT in my life. All but a small handful of them were incompetent jackasses etc. The percentage of them who try to be in IT and are good at it is quite close to 0.

    Therefor, I can only conclude that women are better at IT than men. Statistics don't lie. ;)


    What you have related is anecdotal, and is therefore a statistic. Not 'statistics'. My 15-year old daughter could pi55 all over your reasoning before breakfast.
  • KickAss 2007-10-24 19:32
    Yes please send a link to your picture. We will post our comments. Hot or not Hot.
  • KickAss 2007-10-24 19:36
    Mel:
    Having got 2/3 of the way through reading the comments, I'd like to add my experiences/thoughts:

    I'm the youngest of 3 girls. I spent most of my childhood playing with boys' toys and boys, or playing with computers and electronics with my dad (wrote my first program at age 7). My sisters were 'typical' girls - one of them ended up in science anyway.

    Since leaving school, I've studied CS and worked as a developer. I've generally been one of 2 or 3 females in a workplace (no matter what the size), and there were maybe 6 girls in my first class, of about 100 people. When I went back to Uni to finish my degree, I didn't spend much time on my own work - I'd generally already finished, and was helping others (yes, even boys). Every where I've worked, I've fitted in with the guys. I don't believe I've ever been treated differently because I'm a girl.

    Except: In almost every job interview I've had, I've been asked how I feel about working mostly/only with guys. If I had a problem with that, I couldn't have got where I am now.

    I hate telling guys not in IT what I do. I've had idiots trying to pick me up by trying to convince me they know more about programming than I do. Just because they're male.

    I've worked with good and great women/girls in IT, and I've worked with crap ones. Just like guys. However, I do think it's harder for a female to be *considered* good or great, because you have to first prove you don't suck.

    As for it being a good career choice long-term, it's perfect - when I have kids I'll still be working, just from home.


    Have you been helping the guys with their zippers or code. ;-)
  • Boxer 2007-10-25 02:42
    [quote user="death"][quote user="Vechni"]
    REALLY? I save a Byte. That byte is stored on a drive. A whole byte is written and read less saving electricity(energy). then one byte less is stored in RAM before dispatched to all readers of these pages. A small but real amount of power is saved for not having to send and store it and to process it in each clients end. So you cant say it does not save energy!

    Addendum (2007-10-22 14:24):
    PS: Think of all the saved CPU cycles in all the devices that touch the data and the saved bandwidth of all the pipes... My name choice may as well in the long run save the mankind that last critical drop of oli...[/quote]

    And think of the extra bytes that could be saved if you had not posted the reply, I think you used up that last drop of oil you saved :P

    I know, i know.... i could've saved some electricity myself by not making this post... but hey.. i am optimistic.. i believe we will never run out of oil.</sarcasm>

    Captcha: Ninjas.. i wonder if they had female ninjas as well?
  • xous 2007-10-25 05:22
    The real WTF here is that you take these comments seriously. Although I do agree that he should have kept his mouth shut.
  • Tei 2007-10-25 06:35
    i know a guy that was not hiring girls because most people where male, and he wanted a office free of romantic affairs. i think he have a point.

    i have meet both really awfull IT girls, and brilliant ones.

    anybody like to talk to a women voice, than to a male one. So i think hiring a womens can be a nice idea for a IT position where you need dev's to talk to the clients. the clients will be more happy talking to a women voice. And yes, this is using the women seduction to get more money, and hiring a women because is a women, even with minor tecnical skills than other guy.
    for a position where the dev will never interface with a client, i dont care hiring a women or a men.
    for a coworker, maybe i may love more a men, cause romantic affairs can backfire to me, if i hire a women. What If i fall in love with that female? it sure will affect my productivity. I have experience with love, and it hurt.
  • Mel 2007-10-25 07:05
    KickAss:
    Have you been helping the guys with their zippers or code. ;-)


    Yecch - the code. The zips I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole. If I was paid. Lots.

    Romance in the office - there's a thing called professionalism. That goes for any workplace - IT or not. Or are you suggesting women (or maybe just the attractive ones?) are banned from working completely, just in case some guy is too immature to be able to focus on his work?
  • real_aardvark 2007-10-25 08:57
    xous:
    The real WTF here is that you take these comments seriously. Although I do agree that he should have kept his mouth shut.

    Who is this "you" and "he" whereof you speak?

    It would be much too tiring to keep count, but by my reckoning 100% of the female respondents to this thread know where to find the "quote" button and what it does. The same skillz apply to a mere 75% of the male respondents.

    If you can't perform this fairly simple task in a blog discussion, I don't want to be working anywhere near you in IT. I'll try to ignore whether my female co-worker is "hot," "tepid," or even "What was your name again?" The simple ability to follow instructions and to communicate with her fellows gets my vote every time.
  • Boz 2007-10-25 10:04
    John Awkward:
    Don't worry, I'm only here to be awkward. And you can try to find grammar mistakes in my post's, but you won't find any.



    post's ????

    what are you replacing ??

    posts is the plural of post

    or has my irony-meter jammed ?? again.
  • BradleyS 2007-10-25 11:54
    real_aardvark:
    It would be much too tiring to keep count, but by my reckoning 100% of the female respondents to this thread know where to find the "quote" button and what it does. The same skillz apply to a mere 75% of the male respondents.


    How in the world can you tell? I mean, I'm sure you can count the people who have said "I'm female" and the ones who have said "I'm male", but most of the respondents haven't made a comment one way or the other. Do those factor into your numbers or not?

    Personally, I don't care what gender I'm working with, so long as they get the job done and done right. Then again, if they're an efficient and good worker, I barely care what species they are. Sense of humor and social skills are both optional, though I believe in segregating within the group to avoid having the "with" and "without" humor thrown together. Otherwise you get workplaces much like this thread.
  • real_aardvark 2007-10-25 12:15
    BradleyS:
    real_aardvark:
    It would be much too tiring to keep count, but by my reckoning 100% of the female respondents to this thread know where to find the "quote" button and what it does. The same skillz apply to a mere 75% of the male respondents.


    How in the world can you tell? I mean, I'm sure you can count the people who have said "I'm female" and the ones who have said "I'm male", but most of the respondents haven't made a comment one way or the other. Do those factor into your numbers or not?

    Personally, I don't care what gender I'm working with, so long as they get the job done and done right. Then again, if they're an efficient and good worker, I barely care what species they are. Sense of humor and social skills are both optional, though I believe in segregating within the group to avoid having the "with" and "without" humor thrown together. Otherwise you get workplaces much like this thread.

    I agree; normally it's difficult to tell gender from blog responses.

    In this case, however, I'm prepared to accept that anyone with an obviously female name is female (and no entries in this category have failed to use the quote button correctly, afaik).

    I am also prepared to assume that anyone who claims to be female is actually female (and I don't remember any cross-dressers, if there were any, getting the quote button wrong either).

    It isn't a guarantee, but if you take the position of, say, AntiPC, you are probably male. There are a lot of these. This is the set including those who can't handle the quote button.

    All other posts fall into the category of "None of the above." I don't remember all that many of them messing up, either.

    All of which is to miss my point. I am stating that there is an apparent correlation between people who can't use blogging software properly and people (male?) who are happy to suggest that they don't want women in the IT workplace because, well, women just don't understand how IT works, do they?

    This apparent correlation is certainly more believable than the bald proposition that "chicks can't code."
  • KickAss 2007-10-25 12:16
    Mel:
    KickAss:
    Have you been helping the guys with their zippers or code. ;-)


    Yecch - the code. The zips I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole. If I was paid. Lots.

    Romance in the office - there's a thing called professionalism. That goes for any workplace - IT or not. Or are you suggesting women (or maybe just the attractive ones?) are banned from working completely, just in case some guy is too immature to be able to focus on his work?


    I was just having fun.

    In that case, all straight men are immature because when we see an attractive woman we can only think of certain things (wink) regardless of how smart the woman is.
    Although having attractive women in office cuts down on productivity because men are always hoping to get some and always trying to hang around them.
    It's just the way we are wired, sorry we can't help it.
  • Dave 2007-10-25 18:16
    It's encouraging that the boss was fair-minded enough to have a problem with the prejudice. Many managers might have overlooked it.
  • Just A Thought 2007-10-26 08:59
    Calli Arcale:
    The weekly software meetings were very relaxed, and conversation often turned to topics which men might find uncomfortable, such as childbirth. :-P Of course, the fact that the project was moving very slowly at the time had a lot to do with the relaxed atmosphere as well.


    Could the project moving slowly have had anything to do with discussions in software meetings about childbirth, rather than, say, software?

  • KikoChan 2007-10-26 09:49
    I'm not questioning the technical abilities of female software engineers, but you have to admit that there is something awkward about placing even a remotely hot woman in a team of virginal omega males (that is, male programmers) to continuously remind them of their bottom position in the sexual pecking order.

    The real WTF is that it's ok to discriminate against unsocial personality but not against hot body. Either way, the result is the same: growing anxiety due to the presence of the new employee.
  • Your.Master 2007-10-27 00:16
    Maybe it's regional, but I've never, ever heard anybody say "gal" except on movies. Guys parallels girls where I come from. The two terms are on a level. Yes, boys also parallels girls, and it's not parallel there, in that guys won't appreciate other guys calling them boys but are generally fine with girls calling them boys, while girls (here) are fine with being called girls.
  • Humpy 2007-10-29 01:03
    I personally prefer "dear lady" - when said in the right tone. :-)
  • not a robot 2007-11-08 18:02
    Ironic that anyone would question the technical skill of women, on a site dedicated to failings of an industry that is mostly men...
  • Alex Gergoriev 2007-12-02 12:47
    death:
    "When some dumbtard ignores or disrespects one of my techs because she is a girl, I always call him on it. Nothing dreadful or threatening, just a remark or two to indicate dissatisfaction with performance."

    I'd like to work for you :) I did not exactly hear what he told them but we had a nice laugh at them amongst ourselves afterwards about those blokes... It must feel stupid to be told three times by not lift experts where the problem is and spending two hours finding out that they are right...

    A best medicine would be to call _their_ boss and tell that the blokes were told what the problem is, but preferred to scratch their balls for two hours instead.
  • D'cent on the eyes 2007-12-05 12:35
    LOL! All of the "off color" comments make me laugh. It's the ones that are so serious I just skip over. But I would like to address the comments about no attractive females in IT. I'm not UNattractive, I wouldn't say I'm a Princess Leia, but..this has added more complication to my job. I have often thought about doning a nice set of buns on the sides of my head and yeilding the weak minds around me to my command....
  • whabahaowo 2008-01-10 08:09
    I wish MY office had a lot of female programmers.
  • Anon 2008-01-21 08:04
    Now, think. Whose emphasis was it on the word GIRLS again? Your's or the other persons? It doesn't necessarily has to be degratory if the only persons are "girls" and he casually asks if "one of those girls" is the new hire. If you find the whole world GIRL offensive, you should get your head out of your ass.
  • noah 2008-04-13 08:27
    Ha ha, he deserved what he got then. In my comp sci classes, the ratio was unbalanced too, but the female programmers were just as good.
  • c66nqalwljltb9h 2008-05-02 11:30
    The guy saw two unknown girls, so he asked "one of these girls". He could not ask "one of these men", even not "one of these persons" because there are more people in the room. Damn, feminism sees evil everywhere...
  • Mitur Binesderty 2008-07-08 13:56
    Girls can't do math because they have vaginas. Duh.
  • Hope 2008-12-19 14:58
    'No female developers are even remotely that attractive. The only ones I've ever known were hideous enough to haunt a house.'

    Being a female developer who is at least REMOTELY attractive, I wonder why you're so stereotypical. Just because there aren't as many women in IT, that doesn't mean women in IT are unattractive across the board, or less qualified. When I went to college, there was only one other female in my programming classes. Neither of us were anywhere near capable of haunting a house. Usually, we had more trouble having a conversation with the BOY developers, because they didn't know how to talk to a woman, even on a professional level.

    There are women who don't belong in IT, but there's plenty of males who do not belong anywhere near IT as well!
  • wm 2009-07-06 05:30
  • Mandark 2011-01-14 06:30
    So, how're woman programmers like guinea pigs?

    A guinea pig isn't really a pig, or from Guinea!