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Admin
Admin
During college and at the workplace I have met a total of four female coders
I can't think of a single male colleague or student who've I met and made a point of becoming a developer or is passionate about coding and is a poor coder.
Captcha:alarm. Certainly, there is a female in the office.
Admin
re: 'but I can't say "that Asian guy", because skin color is a protected class'
Since when does the presumed geography of one's place of birth and/or ancestry have anything specific to do with one's skin color? People from Asia have a tremendous range of skin tones, as do people from Europe. Just compare the skin tone of someone whose ancestors came from southern Spain to one whose ancestors came from Norway.
By the way, people from parts of India are often considered to be "Aryan" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_race, which is what the Germans considered themselves to be.
So this whole notion of "protected classes" based on color, ethnicity, ancestral geography, etc. is hogwash
Admin
Admin
How else are you going to multiply?
Admin
Did the boss even bother to mention that cootie shots were part of the benefits package? That might have changed his mind.
Admin
Therein lies a critical flaw with far too many programmers.
Admin
Ehh, You won't believe me. I had a girl on my CS course. She was the smartest from other girls (7 of them against 80 men). Sze was smarter than many other students and had the biggest boobs I've seen IRL. Her name in english would be Pretty. It's such a coincidence (name-boobs) it's already hard to believe without including her CS skills
Admin
Some years ago we interviewed (well, the IT manager interviewed) for a system operator and a network / PC support person. Among the applicants, the one with some actual experience with networks and Windows NT was an attractive young female. This posed a problem. The system operator job was meant to double as secretary to the IT manager (not that it was in the job description) and he didn't want a male secretary. So, the positions were rearranged before they were filled. In the meantime, the IT manager got fired as some of his past incompetence was revealed to the rest of senior management. We eventually got through the process for the work visa required for this applicant. Of course she didn't turn out as technically competent as the IT manager had claimed, but did make herself useful.
Admin
While I know there are some competent women in IT the experiences I had in school (I have yet to have a female co-worker in IT--probably due to spending nearly 20 years at one small outfit where much of the time I've been it for IT) could easily explain his attitude.
They were few and far between in school and every one I knew wasn't worth anything and generally wasn't doing her own schoolwork. I know this doesn't prove they are all bad but I could easily see someone becoming very biased through such experiences.
Admin
You HAVE to ask further questions when somebody says something like that. Maybe he was expressing his disappointment that there didn't seem to be any women on the team!
If there is true prejudice there, it is quite easy to shake it out. But you can't just assume.
Admin
Agreed. I am in networking/hardware support rather than developement, but the arguement still holds. I deal with people more than machines. Not to mention that the HR PEOPLE are the ones that hold sway over promotions, pay raises, etc. Or the other PEOPLE in executive management that could make my life a living hell if they so choose. Considering the preconceived notions of many about IT folk being "anti-social" to begin with, feeding that notion can often be equated with career suicide.
Admin
It was hard to give good context for this story, but my boss was actually quite offended by the candidate's tone. He was more offended than I was... I thought it was funny when he told me afterwards (or I wouldn't have posted it here). Both myself and the other candidate were ~25ish at the time. They decided not to hire him the first round because he fit all of the geek stereotypes (scruffy, unable to communicate well, blah blah). Thanks for assuming I'm hot, though, I like that.
We ended up hiring an intern instead, and I became the lead developer for about two years, going with the company from 6 or 7 people in one office to just under 25 in a much larger building. And being instrumental in getting the software to the point where we landed a 4 million dollar contract.
The company was always very women-friendly; socially it was one of the best places I've ever worked. We made plenty of off-color comments and no one cared much. I don't really believe that trying to attract women to your company by being afraid of them is any more appropriate than trying to keep them out by acting like they are idiots.
In other words, you can suck it. :)
Admin
My previous job, an IT standards-setting group for a global company was an industry anomaly: my group (about 200 people) was about 40 percent women. My team at one time was myself and 4 women. The women usually kicked most of the men's butts as far as work ethic, troubleshooting skills, breadth of tech knowledge, and ability to master new technology.
Admin
Post pictures or shut up!
Fake edit: Sorry, wrong forum!
Admin
I will fully admit my mistakes in the areas of spelling and grammar. I suck at both. I work for a Civil Engineering company, and my assistant got me a mug for christmas last year that reads "Your a Looser". Sad part is she had to explain it to me...I didn't get it at first.
Admin
Very productive, I mean this guy has obviously never worked with a competent female programmer -so- let's make sure he stays that way by not hiring him. Very clever.
And this guy was a better programmer than Shanna but he was rejected because...
So discriminating against people with Asperger syndrome is alright, it is expressing surprise about the admittedly rare female programmers which is an unforgivable sin. Really smooth.
And mature.
Admin
There are three possible reasons why there are a disproportionate number of men in IT:
Number 1 is false because obviously there are talented women in IT. So you either have to admit to number 2 or 3. Number 2 is society's official version, and number 3 contains some truth from number 1. Since even partly accepting number 1 is heresy to PC society, you are left with number 2 as the only "acceptable" reason.
Think about this for a second and then consider if men will ever stop getting blamed for the IT male/female disproportion.
Admin
You're leaving out:
In contrast to #1, #4 is saying women have the ability, but in general fewer women than men have an interest in pursuing a career in technology. The reason for this difference in interest could be sexist, i.e. lack of tech/science guidance for school-age girls, or just normal differences between the sexes.
-Me
Admin
"Gals"? Y'all want some grits with that?
No one uses "gals" outside of the South. It's "guys and girls" in most places.
Admin
Maybe I'm more practical than most boys. I always preferred working with girls. Why? Because I like girls. I really like girls.
So, if I get to do cool tech work, work with smart people, AND those people are girls ... wow, that's perfect.
Admin
By the way ... count me in the camp that doesn't use "girl" in a derogatory fashion. To me, "woman" just sounds far too serious, even matronly. "Girl" is more fun.
Notice in my post, I refer to myself as a "boy".
I'm 41. :)
Admin
Sorry, but I can't agree. It's too easy for the tone-of-surprise version to be taken as another problem, which might equate to: "I'm SO PRIMO and you hired a GIRL instead of ME???"
Even if that isn't taken as sexist, it still suggests someone who isn't a team player; who is sure they know the best way of doing everything. In my experience, this tends to indicate people who don't know the best way and won't learn.
Aside from which, the tone-of-surprise still comes off sexist (in my opinion).
Admin
Yeah, but no fishing off the company pier... ;(
Admin
It's truly strange to hear from modern techies that men are better at programming and math than women are since a lot (a majority even?) of early programmers were women.
Admin
or maybe he's been on the pointy end of a sexual harassment lawsuit over a throwaway comment in the past and wants to avoid a repeat by not working with any women ever again.
Admin
The first person "write" a computer program and in fact she was a mathematician as well - was a woman: It's clear that woman still face the same prejudices more than 100 years later. http://www.lc-ps.org/Departments/Technology/technologyArticles/Ada.htm
Admin
(Some) Confounding factors:
Few role models: Women may not want to join a field where they are the only girl. Trust me, there are times when it sucks to work in a basement for hours on end with only 14 other guys for company. There are probably plenty of women who, when given a choice between two interesting careers, choose to pursue one with more gender balance. This is roughly the 'critical mass' theory of social influence on under-represented groups. For an example of this theory in practice, the number of women in law and medicine in the 70's shows a sharp rise right around the time that more professors teaching intro-level classes were women.
Overt Sexism. 'Nuff said.
Unconscious pressure to conform to social norms. Various studies have shown this is pervasive from infancy onwards. Two of the more notable: (Study 1) Babies, it turns out, look surprisingly asexual. Researchers dressed a baby up in gender neutral colors and filmed it (I don't know if it was actually a boy or a girl) for several minutes. They then showed adults the film; some adults were told the baby was a girl, others that it was a boy. The adults were then asked to describe what the baby's emotional state was at different times. For those watching a "girl", the baby was more likely to be 'shy', 'scared', 'timid', while for those watching a "boy", the same film supposedly depicted a baby who was 'angry', 'aggressive', and 'annoyed'. So children are exposed to, if not overt, at least unintentional prejudices and pressures to conform to stereotypes basically from birth. (Study 2) Parents encourage their sons more than their daughters to pursue math and science in middle school, even when the study controlled for the sons and daughters self-reported interest in the subjects (i.e, two equally interested children will be encouraged to pursue their interest differently based on gender). It's no wonder that fewer women are 'interested in computers' at the end of all this.
Now, it could be that innate differences really do account for a difference in how the genders approach computers. The problem is, with the compounding factors listed above, in the status quo we can't even accurately determine which gender is innately more interested in computers. Given that women initially were very involved with computers, it's plausible that in the absence of the 3 social pressures described above, more women than men would be in IT. Such a reversal of traditional gender imbalance is already happening in college application rates, and both human and veterinary medicine.
As to why I am really, really not happy with proponents of the 'innate differences' theory (Larry Summers, I'm talking to you): it provides an easy out for social reform. The 3 social issues that I outlined above are very hard to fix, expensive to address, and unpleasant to face (no one likes to think that they discriminated against their own children). 'Inherent gender differences' provides an explanation that requires no action and allows society as a whole to declare that equality of opportunity has been achieved. This is, in fact, the same line of thought that continues to spur on eugenicists and racial supremacists the world over. 'Genetic differences' have been used to rationalize far worse things than unconscious transmission of gender roles, and the historic tendency of these theories to be used as just that (rationalizations of social wrongs) should give pause to anyone who is a loud proponent of the theory UNLESS THEY HAVE CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT CONTROLS FOR ALL KNOWN SOCIETAL FACTORS. I emphasize the last bit because I am not advocating suppressing the truth because it could be used badly; I am arguing against unsubstantiated speculation that is used to justify and entrench social inequity.
Admin
You think dudes get weird with women "in IT". Just wait when there's a gay one who doesn't quite fit and gets along with the women just fine.
"Hey dude, check this out! Pizza, beer and porn. Heaven, dude!" - "Nah, thanks. I'd rather get myself a salad, some evian and GQ - Ewan McGregor is on the cover!!!"
Seriously, how many of you work with gay programmers? And no, not "dude, that's gay" programmers, but rather "dude, he's actually gay" programmers.
Captcha: pinball - wheeee!!!
Admin
this is ridiculous. so the guy had prejudices, omg lol hlep meee... his remark could have been a joke or such... or just a way to talk up the girls... sure, not a very good one but still. obviously he isn't the most sociable. that is still no reason for him to not get the job.
well hello, mister obvious. you may be a male software developer, but you are still a pussy... how can you take those seriously at all?Admin
Half of the female developers I knew in college were only less pretty than the girls in men's magazines because they didn't have time for make-up and hairspray.
Admin
You have to read these "people" stories rather carefully - there's no diabolical code to look at so you have to take them on trust and they're always written from one person's POV - invariably someone with an axe to grind.
Submitter was not present in the interview. So the comment about hiring girls is second or third hand and probably paraphrased - by a boss who just rejected a candidate from a job interview - or maybe got rejected by the candidate.
People do not hire back-room staff (and that's what you leet haXorz really are) based on being friendly/sociable, unless there's nepotism going on. Submitter would not be contacting daily WTF if she was beneficiary of nepotism.
So that only leaves one option: sumbitter was not one of those "just as good as any man" female empolyees, but in fact more the "just as bad as any man" kind. Candidate found out that the company had made him the victim of "positive" discrimination and walked out.
Oh, and here's a puzzle for you. When does a company hire one employee and then suddenly realise they need to hire another a month later?
Admin
At least by not hiring women you'll avoid situations such as this: http://www.explosm.net/comics/1060/
Captcha:Doom Doomed the guy was for expressing his surprise
Admin
Admin
The day women stop nagging about sexism they might finally fit inn. Women that demand posters of babes removed, or can't take guys chatting about asses or tits etc should go back to granny because the same women will oogle a guys ass in a heartbeat. Sexism is bullshit unless enforced by power.
Admin
Daily you have to confer, discuss, talk and go over projects, documentation and what not with these people where being a social extrovert personality helps a lot. Joint lunches talking about anything but work and so forth. Oh and if you want to lay one of these girls you better have some socialskills because most females I see in IT here excell in the social department more than guys, though most of them try to much to be a "girl in IT".
Admin
Heh, I was thinking of that exact same comic when I was reading the comments to this post.
Admin
Haven't read the rest of the comments, and technically its syntax, but I'm pretty sure you meant posts, not post's -- unless they own you or something. This is possibly the most ironic thing I've seen posted. If you meant it as such kudos, if not ... sorry.
Admin
Why does this remark make me think of pandas?
Admin
I prefer to be called a chick... am I crazy or is this the most responded to WTF ever?
Admin
I'd rather work with more women because most of the guys whose lockers were located in the CS wing had really bad BO. I had 3 women in my program at the start. None completed. One was obsessed with perfect marks (dropped out when her average hit 80%), the other two were amongst a good chunk of our class that really didn't know what they were doing and probably picked the wrong program (or school for that matter).
Go go no B O!
Admin
Still a long way to go. The cold fusion flame-war is probably a contender though: http://worsethanfailure.com/Comments/Poor_Mr_0x2e__O_0x27_Hare_.aspx? We'll get there.
Captcha: kungfu. Please, there are ladies present.
Admin
Still a long way to go. The cold fusion flame-war is probably a contender though: http://worsethanfailure.com/Comments/Poor_Mr_0x2e__O_0x27_Hare_.aspx? We'll get there.
Captcha: kungfu. Please, there are ladies present.
Admin
There are several female developers besides me at the company I currently work at, so yes... we do exist. I've also found that the percent who are actually good is much the same as among men.
Sometimes though, I see that the women have to work harder to get recognition. At one of my previous jobs, one of the male developers had a blog on Blogger and my boss thought that was so impressive (I think he even said 'leet' groan). I mentioned my own blog, personal websites and my paid article published by Zend, and I got a "that's nice" response. But maybe that was just one company, my current employer gives credit where it's due.
Admin
Hmm. I think I should introduce you to someone who I used to work for. She started up a company from scratch, built it up over 20 years, is very personable (and very demanding and absolutely fearsome in some circumstances). She is also famous for telling a newspaper re. some government committee that she was on at the time re. the size of a services contract "ohh 800 Million that's chickfeed".
She later sold her company and is now worth in excess of 100 Million personally, just short of her 50th birthday.
She was also - as I remember - very technically capable.
I think a little attitude adjustment might be in order here.
Admin
A couple short anecdotes about women coders I know.
My small 3-5 team used to have 2 female coders. One was a very quiet swede who was quite competent. If she was a little more outspoken she would have been known as excellent. As it was, she was just known as competent because more assertive people would dominate meetings. (Using a second language made her a bit hesitant to speak up)
My girlfriend worked as database programmer, system analyst, and programmer. She makes even more than me, and I am a MIT grad with 10 years experience and an above average salary.
Lastly I know of another girl from MIT who is now a professional programmer. In school she was known for her beauty. (She came up in discussions with other MIT grads not even from the same decade as being the person we know with the most natural presence and charm) She is both smart and competent, yet she has the type of presence that would drive most socially awkward programmers to distraction. Luckily her company has a good number of female developers.
All three of those women would be able to out perform most males considered their senior. Sex doesn't matter, ability does. And ability can reside in anyone.
Case in point: The best programmer I ever met was a high school drop out from East Germany who was entirely self taught. Most places would not even interview him because of his lack of degree. He was the only supercoder I have ever worked with. I saw him crank out 100 working classes in a weekend. All coded from scratch. He was a one man programming team. Last I heard he was getting roughly twice what I make in Manhattan.
Some people just have talent and you can't tell who from sex or degree.
Admin
"post's" isn't possessive. It'd be "posts". But who cares. See, I just started a sentence with a conjunction just like you did with "And" which isn't grammatically correct, but this is a forum which is meant to be vernacular so grammar doesn't matter.
Anyway, Kelly, I believe the "girls can do math jokes" are just jokes. Not meant to be sexist statements.
I work with a lot of women in I.T. Many of them are very competent and beyond. I've also worked with women that whine about sexism because they are passed up for projects, promotions, etc. when across the hall 75% of the staff are female. The boss is female. There's a WTF.
Admin
Do you remember those days when dailywtf posted Real WTFs? It was so long ago. I'd better go and read about brillant paula.
Captcha: atari. why not zx spectrum?
Admin
Only ever met two working in the field... first went from cute to annoying very quickly when she realized I could help her fix her problems faster then searching on Google for the solutions. The second restored my faith in female programmers.
All of the girls that I had in class with me in college seemed to be heading to the government jobs. Take that as you will.
Admin
But if there are innate gender differences, then you will never know because the situation will never be resolved to your satisfaction to make that conclusion. If innate gender differences were admitted to, IN THE VERY LEAST, then all these discrimination claims would be put in doubt.
Men and women are different. Things like pain toleration, longevity, intelligence (verbal vs. spatial), disease susceptibility, etc. The actual brain structure is different. These are NOT societally influenced things. The Raven's Progressive Matrices test is a great example: no words, no cultural bias, nothing - just pattern recognition and abstract reasoning - males outperform females. On a verbal test the results would likely be the opposite.