Traffic Enfarcement Camera

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  • Daid 2008-08-04 09:03
    And TRWTF is that a tow truck cannot drive over 60km/h?
  • gabba 2008-08-04 09:05
    Hey, _somebody_ has to pay for this outrageous violation of the traffic laws. Might as well be the poor sap whose car is being towed.
  • soonermatt 2008-08-04 09:07
    I wouldn't be surprised if the truck sped knowing who would get the ticket.
  • Sam 2008-08-04 09:07
    An interesting point about security cameras:
    The number of accidents in any particular place fluctuates over time by pure chance. Sometimes you'll get a number of accidents on a particular stretch that's well over average. The government promptly builds speed cameras. Next year, the number of accidents drops - ergo, the speed cameras reduced accidents! While actually, the chances of the number of accidents hitting the same unusually high value two years running is very small, so in almost every case the number of accidents will drop after a high year - whether or not speed cameras were installed.
  • LJU 2008-08-04 09:08
    Well - he can always say that he wasn't driving at the time.
  • Zolcos 2008-08-04 09:10
    Greetings, Citizen.
    We recieved your request for appeal on the matter of your recent speeding ticket. However, the evidence clearly shows your vehicle traveling in excess of the speed limit on the road in question (towing notwithstanding). Thus, your request is denied.
    -The Man
  • snoofle 2008-08-04 09:12
    No no no! The vehicle wasn't being towed...

    He rammed the tow truck, rode up on the rear bumper, and was pushing it over the limit to terrify the poor traffic enforcement official who was merely doing their job, when the all-seeing eye-in-the-sky caught him in the act.

    He deserves to be severly punished, flogged and forced to drive a Pinto for the rest of his days!
  • Alex Papadimoulis 2008-08-04 09:17
    LJU:
    Well - he can always say that he wasn't driving at the time.


    FYI - here in Cleveland (and many, many other jurisdictions), even an affidavit saying you weren't behind the wheel isn't enough. You have to either (a) prove that the car wasn't yours or (b) give them the name/address of the driver. If you choose option (b) and the driver doesn't pay up, you still have to.

    I should also note... I have yet to receive a camera ticket, but I just find the whole process a little screwy.
  • K&T 2008-08-04 09:27

    The number of accidents in any particular place fluctuates over time by pure chance. Sometimes you'll get a number of accidents on a particular stretch that's well over average. The government promptly builds speed cameras. Next year, the number of accidents drops - ergo, the speed cameras reduced accidents!


    Actually, studies suggest they Increase Crashes

    They also increase revenue, which is the real reason they exist.
  • Schmitter 2008-08-04 09:28
    If I just send work a picture of me working, that is the same thing as me actually working right?
  • c-- 2008-08-04 09:31
    The only thing that could make this better would be if his car was being towed for being parked on double yellows.
  • Quango 2008-08-04 09:43
    LJU:
    Well - he can always say that he wasn't driving at the time.


    In this case probably yes... however....

    In the UK a few years ago, a couple's car broke down. The husband fetched their second car to tow the first back to their house, and his wife got into the broken car to steer.

    They were stopped by police on the way back - and she was prosecuted because she did not have a driving licence, even though she was in the car being towed with its engine off. The judges regarded her as being in control of the vehicle, even though the source of power was the towing car.

    In this case I think that the steering wheels are off the ground so the tow-truck is clearly in control.
  • petercooperjr 2008-08-04 09:51
    Of course, he should mail back a picture of somebody else writing a check...

    (http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/handcuff.asp)
  • A Nonny Mouse 2008-08-04 09:52
    ok, ok, i'll say it... if you don't want to be caught by a speed camera - don't speed!

    admittedly the polo getting a ticket for being towed is ridiculous, but the tow truck shouldn't have been over the limit in the first place. that particular stretch of road is well known for having pedestrians crossing it to get home/to work, even though it's a national road (motorway/freeway). 60km/h gives everyone a better chance of reacting in time.
  • sysKin 2008-08-04 09:53
    I don't know how it works in SA but here down under, you can either pay or point out who was driving if it wasn't you.

    All that needs to be done is the second option.
  • operagost 2008-08-04 10:00
    Alex Papadimoulis:
    LJU:
    Well - he can always say that he wasn't driving at the time.


    FYI - here in Cleveland (and many, many other jurisdictions), even an affidavit saying you weren't behind the wheel isn't enough. You have to either (a) prove that the car wasn't yours or (b) give them the name/address of the driver. If you choose option (b) and the driver doesn't pay up, you still have to.

    I should also note... I have yet to receive a camera ticket, but I just find the whole process a little screwy.

    It's a violation of the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" contained within common law. Of course, being common law, it's not outlined in the Constitution. But it doesn't need to be, per the 9th amendment. A picture of your car is not enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
  • Zeno of Elea 2008-08-04 10:04
    Fellow philosophers, as you who have followed my arguments and deliberations about the paradox of the flying arrow well know, it is impossible for a still image to prove the existence of movement. Rather, this picture demonstrates that the car does not move at all, for clearly it is bound in place and the picture is at rest. Only the GIF may animate the inanimate and stir the elements that compose matter.

    Quod erat demonstrandum.

  • tin 2008-08-04 10:06
    sysKin:
    I don't know how it works in SA but here down under, you can either pay or point out who was driving if it wasn't you.


    What works well, or at least if you're a judge, is to name a dead person. My good friend Marcus taught me that trick...
  • Judge 2008-08-04 10:17
    Since both cars are speeding, both should get a ticket...
  • Gordonjcp 2008-08-04 10:19
    When the infamous Skye Bridge was still the most expensive toll bridge in Europe, my mother and her friend were unfortunate enough to have their van break down and need to be towed home. They were charged two commercial vehicle rates - one for the tow truck, and one for the dead Maestro van hanging off the back.
  • Mizchief 2008-08-04 10:23
    I would challenge anyone to read that citation and then try to argue that we don't need a singular national language for offical business.
  • Gilgamesh 2008-08-04 10:23
    Here in Brazil we had a case much worse than this. The car was traveling at 4800km/h... yes, mach 4...
    Look here:
  • Kanazuchi 2008-08-04 10:27
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.
  • Aldrin L. M. Leal 2008-08-04 10:31
    Recently, a bettle in Brazil was fined for doing the same thing... Backwards.

    Then they found that the beetle, in fact, was being towed.
  • Saaid 2008-08-04 10:32
    Gilgamesh:
    Here in Brazil we had a case much worse than this. The car was traveling at 4800km/h... yes, mach 4...
    What's the problem that's way over the speed limit of 40 Km/H. Think of the children.
  • charlie 2008-08-04 10:34
    I want to know how they got a numberplate out of the mass of white pixels that is his rear bumper!
  • Lars Fosdal 2008-08-04 10:36
    Not only was he speeding, but the distance to the vehicle in front was also way too short. Worst of all, he probably not even at the wheel at that moment, and should be prosecuted under the "speeding while absent" paragraph.
  • SenTree 2008-08-04 10:42
    Zeno of Elea:
    Fellow philosophers, as you who have followed my arguments and deliberations about the paradox of the flying arrow well know, it is impossible for a still image to prove the existence of movement. Rather, this picture demonstrates that the car does not move at all, for clearly it is bound in place and the picture is at rest. Only the GIF may animate the inanimate and stir the elements that compose matter.

    Quod erat demonstrandum.


    An elegant refutation, sir !

    Here in the UK, I believe speed cameras take two pictures in rapid succession, and there are markers painted on the road. The two photos taken together would prove displacement (although not necessarily movement through the intervening space...).
  • Krenn 2008-08-04 10:53
    charlie:
    I want to know how they got a numberplate out of the mass of white pixels that is his rear bumper!


    Oh, that part's easy. Just give it to one of the CSI guys down at the station, and he can hit the "enhance" button and clear it right up.
  • Niels 2008-08-04 10:55
    Couldn't happen in Denmark.

    Speed cameras are required to get a recognisable picture of the driver's face ie. photograph the car from the front.
    What happens if the face is covered I'm not sure...
  • Vox 2008-08-04 10:57
    I really, really hoped that the ticked would be for tail-gating.
  • Chris 2008-08-04 10:57
    SenTree:
    Here in the UK, I believe speed cameras take two pictures in rapid succession, and there are markers painted on the road. The two photos taken together would prove displacement (although not necessarily movement through the intervening space...).


    I think they're supposed to be 0.5s apart, but I heard a story about a guy who was prosecuted for being over the limit and successfully defended it because the particular camera was proven to be taking pictures more like 0.7s apart (meaning the "evidence" suggested he was going 40% faster than he really was).
  • DeLos 2008-08-04 11:07
    Krenn:
    charlie:
    I want to know how they got a numberplate out of the mass of white pixels that is his rear bumper!


    Oh, that part's easy. Just give it to one of the CSI guys down at the station, and he can hit the "enhance" button and clear it right up.


    That is right. They can just us VB to create and interface and they are all set!
  • Alex 2008-08-04 11:11
    I always liked the story:

    A guy received a ticket from the local police department, telling him that he was caught on camera running a red light, and was ordered to pay a fine of 200 or so dollars.

    So the guy does the only sensible thing in this situation: He sends a picture of 200 dollars back to the police department.

    A few days later, the guy gets a letter back from the police department; Inside was a picture of handcuffs.
  • MBV 2008-08-04 11:12
    Mizchief:
    I would challenge anyone to read that citation and then try to argue that we don't need a singular national language for offical business.

    Because I'm Dutch, it's a really funny read for me :) Although it would be much easier to read if they just separated the languages..

    For example:
    'Pad' = Road, while in Dutch that can only be a dirt road or a toad
    'Oortreding' = breaking a law, while in Dutch that would be 'Overtreding', and Oortreding would be related to standing on ears

    and many more. Although I still like best that kitchen is translated to 'kombuis' :)
  • Jared 2008-08-04 11:21
    That sounds like bunk. There is a radar gun attached to the camera module. That is what records your speed. If it gets triggered by a speeder, then it has the camera take a picture. The photo is only for identification, not proof of speed. Multiple photos would likely be more for increased identification. Though there are enough stupid people around, I can see a speeder getting off with that argument.

    CAPATCHA: valet
  • Cyrz 2008-08-04 11:25
    Krenn:
    Oh, that part's easy. Just give it to one of the CSI guys down at the station, and he can hit the "enhance" button and clear it right up.


    If you hit enhance twice, you can read the license plate of the tow truck through the car.
  • Lazy-lump 2008-08-04 11:36
    Jared:
    The photo is only for identification, not proof of speed. Multiple photos would likely be more for increased identification.

    Where I live they have a series of parallel lines (About 1m apart) leading up to each camera. If the speed is read to be too high, the camera takes two photos a set time apart. The number of lines crossed in the interval gives a rough estimate of the speed in case the radar is disputed.
  • SenTree 2008-08-04 11:36
    Jared:
    That sounds like bunk. There is a radar gun attached to the camera module. That is what records your speed. If it gets triggered by a speeder, then it has the camera take a picture. The photo is only for identification, not proof of speed. Multiple photos would likely be more for increased identification. Though there are enough stupid people around, I can see a speeder getting off with that argument.

    You're missing the point. The radar gun indeed records the speed, and triggers the camera. The two photos and the road markings provide a secondary verification - as the previous story illustrates.

    I would also suggest it is impolite to accuse a person of 'bunk' when they are informing you of something about the country they live in, when clearly you don't live there.
  • Alex Papadimoulis 2008-08-04 11:37
    operagost:
    It's a violation of the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" contained within common law. Of course, being common law, it's not outlined in the Constitution. But it doesn't need to be, per the 9th amendment. A picture of your car is not enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.


    I guess this is the "beauty" of it being a "civil violation" instead of criminal. They don't actually send you a summons to court, only a "notice of liability" to the traffic department. You have zero chance of fighting the liability, as the ordinanceclearly states that, if it's your car, then you were liable.

    Because it's an administrative hearing, the rules of court/evidence do not apply... so when you ask to look at the mechanics of the camera, records of citations, etc. in hopes of finding a flaw in their system, they'll either laugh at you or aseess a several hundred dollar fee for "the information to be assembled and burned on to a disk."

    I guess the reason that all this is kosher in the eyes of the law (this has actually gone to Ohio's Supreme Court) is that it's a civil violation, not a criminal one. So, not paying means they can forward the matter to a collections agency (undoubtly impacting your credit score), sue you in civil court, and/or impound your vehicle if it's parked on city streets. So really, that's nothing.
  • snoofle 2008-08-04 11:42
    In New York City, they have those traffic cameras at many high-volume spots - and have for more than 20 years.

    However, since they catch the photo from the back, the rule is that the vehicle owner gets a non-point-value ticket $based-on-speed, regardless of who was driving.

    Unfortunately, it had the undesired effect of folks in the left lane, waiting for the light, refusing to go through for an ambulance 5 cars back, because there was no way to show the ambulance in the picture right behind you.
  • Mike 2008-08-04 11:42
    Kanazuchi:
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.


    ...and doing wheelies. Double plus bad!
  • jeremypnet 2008-08-04 11:44
    Sam:
    An interesting point about security cameras:
    The number of accidents in any particular place fluctuates over time by pure chance. Sometimes you'll get a number of accidents on a particular stretch that's well over average. The government promptly builds speed cameras. Next year, the number of accidents drops - ergo, the speed cameras reduced accidents! While actually, the chances of the number of accidents hitting the same unusually high value two years running is very small, so in almost every case the number of accidents will drop after a high year - whether or not speed cameras were installed.

    It's called "regression to the mean". My brother (a statistician) told me of an easy experiment that one of his colleagues uses when lecturing to policemen about statistics.

    In a class of say 30 police officers, you give each one a dice and they all roll them. The number each one gets is the number of accidents on their stretch of road in year 1. The lecturer gives each officer who rolled a 5 or a 6 a picture of a speed camera. He probably hands out about 10. Everybody then rolls the dice for year 2. If you look at the statistics for years 1 and 2 for the officers who have a picture of a speed camera, the probability is that in year 1, the mean number of accidents was about 5.5 and in year 2 it was about 3.5.

    There you go: speed cameras improve safety.
  • vt_mruhlin 2008-08-04 11:52
    snoofle:
    In New York City, they have those traffic cameras at many high-volume spots - and have for more than 20 years.

    However, since they catch the photo from the back, the rule is that the vehicle owner gets a non-point-value ticket $based-on-speed, regardless of who was driving.

    Unfortunately, it had the undesired effect of folks in the left lane, waiting for the light, refusing to go through for an ambulance 5 cars back, because there was no way to show the ambulance in the picture right behind you.


    Have cities stopped doing the old trick where the traffic lights detect the emergency vehicle and change to accommodate it? I remember it used to work via a strobe light on top of the car, until people started making their own strobes on the same frequency. But surely they can come up with a better system nowadays. how about a GPS in each of the ambulances, with turn-by-turn navigation, that knows long in advance where they need to be and sets up their lights accordingly for the whole route?
  • Alex 2008-08-04 12:00
    snoofle:
    Unfortunately, it had the undesired effect of folks in the left lane, waiting for the light, refusing to go through for an ambulance 5 cars back, because there was no way to show the ambulance in the picture right behind you.


    I don't believe that even if you could prove there was an ambulance behind you it'd get you out of breaking the road rules... Would love it if you can find a law/exception in any country stating otherwise ;)
  • shinobu 2008-08-04 12:03
  • Jared 2008-08-04 12:04
    SenTree:
    I would also suggest it is impolite to accuse a person of 'bunk' when they are informing you of something about the country they live in, when clearly you don't live there.


    First, the country I live in is irrelevant. You don't have to live in a country to have knowledge of it. Second, I made no accusation. I merely stated my opinion that it "sounds" like bunk. I can't convey tone with a post. Sorry if you took it as negative.
  • Piercy 2008-08-04 12:06
    if the ambulance goes through a red it will get snapped too. Theres your proof. In the UK emergency vehicles have to account for cameras by a button on there dash. I presume they still get charged and claim it back or something. Else no need for the button...
  • Disgruntled DBA 2008-08-04 12:07
    Mike:
    Kanazuchi:
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.


    ...and doing wheelies. Double plus bad!


    Tsk Tsk. Double plus ungood!
  • Sean Patterson 2008-08-04 12:11
    vt_mruhlin:
    Have cities stopped doing the old trick where the traffic lights detect the emergency vehicle and change to accommodate it? I remember it used to work via a strobe light on top of the car, until people started making their own strobes on the same frequency. But surely they can come up with a better system nowadays. how about a GPS in each of the ambulances, with turn-by-turn navigation, that knows long in advance where they need to be and sets up their lights accordingly for the whole route?


    That's even better! Now I can just call in an emergency from a pay phone, wait till an ambulance drives by and follow it to my destination.
  • Sean Patterson 2008-08-04 12:16
    Alex:
    I don't believe that even if you could prove there was an ambulance behind you it'd get you out of breaking the road rules... Would love it if you can find a law/exception in any country stating otherwise ;)


    In most, if not all, states in the US there's a law requiring you to, if safely possible, clear the way for an emergency vehicle while the lights are on.
  • D-Coder 2008-08-04 12:30
    Sean Patterson:
    vt_mruhlin:
    Have cities stopped doing the old trick where the traffic lights detect the emergency vehicle and change to accommodate it? I remember it used to work via a strobe light on top of the car, until people started making their own strobes on the same frequency. But surely they can come up with a better system nowadays. how about a GPS in each of the ambulances, with turn-by-turn navigation, that knows long in advance where they need to be and sets up their lights accordingly for the whole route?


    That's even better! Now I can just call in an emergency from a pay phone, wait till an ambulance drives by and follow it to my destination.

    Works just great when your destination is the nearest emergency room.

    Of course, in that case, you could just get in the ambulance instead of driving yourself...
  • eric76 2008-08-04 12:33
    K&T:

    The number of accidents in any particular place fluctuates over time by pure chance. Sometimes you'll get a number of accidents on a particular stretch that's well over average. The government promptly builds speed cameras. Next year, the number of accidents drops - ergo, the speed cameras reduced accidents!


    Actually, studies suggest they Increase Crashes

    They also increase revenue, which is the real reason they exist.
    No.

    The link is about red light cameras, not speed cameras.
  • stevedclarke 2008-08-04 12:34
    Here in SA we mostly use pressure sensors in the road.
  • SenTree 2008-08-04 12:36
    Jared:
    SenTree:
    I would also suggest it is impolite to accuse a person of 'bunk' when they are informing you of something about the country they live in, when clearly you don't live there.

    First, the country I live in is irrelevant. You don't have to live in a country to have knowledge of it.
    Fair point, but if you lived in the UK you'd be aware of the road markings :)
    Jared:
    Second, I made no accusation. I merely stated my opinion that it "sounds" like bunk. I can't convey tone with a post. Sorry if you took it as negative.
    No problem - it's probably a culture thing. Over here (UK), accusing someone of 'bunk' would be taken as a fairly serious aspersion on their credibility. I'm assuming it's less serious where you are?
  • K&T 2008-08-04 12:44
    My mistake, i thought the poster i responded to was talking about red light cameras.

  • dcardani 2008-08-04 12:45
    Something like this happened to my coworker, only worse. He went outside one morning to find his car had been stolen. He filed a police report. About a month later he receives a ticket in the mail with a photograph of the thief who stole his car running a red light in it! Luckily he didn't have to pay the ticket, but unluckily it didn't help at all in catching the thief.
  • snoofle 2008-08-04 12:48
    Alex:
    snoofle:
    Unfortunately, it had the undesired effect of folks in the left lane, waiting for the light, refusing to go through for an ambulance 5 cars back, because there was no way to show the ambulance in the picture right behind you.


    I don't believe that even if you could prove there was an ambulance behind you it'd get you out of breaking the road rules... Would love it if you can find a law/exception in any country stating otherwise ;)

    I'm not a lawyer, so am only guessing here, but I believe the rule is that you're never supposed to break the law unless a cop directs youo to do something. Given that, if there's an emergency vehicle behind you with lights/sirens going, you're supposed to get out of it's way. In theory, you shouldn't get a ticket for it, but pictures of YOU going through a light that don't show the ambulance several cars back make it really tough on you to make your case.

    After a number of folks got snagged on that one and the judges refused to request the original sequence of pictures for the next several cars behind you, word quickly spread to not jump the light. Unfortunately, I'm sure that lead to folks who were in dire need of those emergency services not getting help in time. Sad.
  • eric76 2008-08-04 12:49
    snoofle:
    In New York City, they have those traffic cameras at many high-volume spots - and have for more than 20 years.
    Correction: Less than 20 years.

    The first photo radar citations issued in the United States were on Interstate 45 in Galveston County, Texas. If I remember correctly, that was in 1987. The next two locations were in Pasadena, California and Paradise Valley, Arizona more than a year later.
  • James 2008-08-04 13:11
    I wanted to second the angry post about changing the nature of the infraction. It used to be that you, John Doe, got fined for running a red light or speeding, and as such you had all your constitutional rights (such as facing your accuser) to fall back on. Now, your *car* is the cause of the violation, much like if your dog craps on the curb without picking it up or your car is parked in front of a hydrant. It doesn't matter *who* was speeding, just the object that was involved. Your car does not have any constitutional rights, so they can just collect the money and let you (the owner of the naughty car) sort out whose fault it might be.

    Everybody (even the pols responsible) admits freely it's a revenue ploy. It's an outrage, and frankly there aren't nearly as many people pissed about it as there aught to be.
  • Gnonthgol 2008-08-04 13:13
    stevedclarke:
    Here in SA we mostly use pressure sensors in the road.

    Pressure sensors in the road is never used for timing. It is impossible to get an accurate mesurement of the time a veacle passes over the sensor.
    The most common sensors in the road are loops of wires witch messures induction.
    This is why scooters are the best way to trick a speed camera. It has low surface area to trick radars, and are made of aleminium and plastic witch have low magnetic propperties.
  • ParkinT 2008-08-04 13:16
    Kanazuchi:
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.

    And without a licensed driver at the wheel !!!!
  • DavidTC 2008-08-04 13:19
    Mike:
    Kanazuchi:
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.


    ...and doing wheelies. Double plus bad!

    I'm not sure that doing wheelies is illegal per se, but it's certainly driving recklessly....he couldn't even steer like that! (He's also almost certainly not watching the road.)

    More seriously, various traffic offenses are administrative, not 'legal' offenses, ie, it is illegal for your car to be in that position, regardless of the circumstances, I'm really wondering if he can get out of paying that fine.

    It is his car and it is going over 60.
  • Teh Irish Gril Riot 2008-08-04 13:23
    Schmitter:
    If I just send work a picture of me working, that is the same thing as me actually working right?


    My hero!

    Of course, it'd be nearly impossible to get a picture of me actually working.
  • Mark 2008-08-04 13:25
    I won't be surprised if the reality of the situation is one of the following:

    The Traffic Enforcement Agency (or private company processing them) doesn't want to lose the revenue for this infraction; nor do they want their "successfully prosecuted" statistic to go down (since I wouldn't be surprised if there's a bonus attached to it). They know the tow-truck driver is at fault, but they can't read the plate of the tow-truck. So they issue the ticket to the car being towed. The car's owner either pays the ticket (and they get the revenue) or, more likely, complains. The Traffic Enforcement Agency then says to "get out of it" the owner needs to name the towing company. They can then issue the summons to the towing company and the Traffic Enforcement Agency gets the revenue.

    Still absurd and extremely inconvenient to the car's owner... but at least it lets me hold on to the quickly fading hope that people out there are not complete idiots!

    Another possibility is that it is all automated. I believe some of these traffic camera systems now have logic built in to read the plate number from the photo and process it. A person only gets involved if the plate number can not be automatically read. So it may be a case that no person ever saw the photo to make the logical conclusion of "we shouldn't be ticketing this person."

    Again... just trying to hang on to some hope that people out there are not complete idiots!
  • Bappi 2008-08-04 13:34
    gabba:
    Hey, _somebody_ has to pay for this outrageous violation of the traffic laws. Might as well be the poor sap whose car is being towed.

    I would think it rather depends on why the car is being towed. If the car broke down, and the driver asked for a tow to the nearest garage, then the tow truck driver is basically working for the driver, and the driver may well be considered responsible. Conversely, if the car's being towed for something like a parking violation, then the tow truck driver is working for the city.
  • Gnonthgol 2008-08-04 13:41
    Mark:

    Another possibility is that it is all automated. I believe some of these traffic camera systems now have logic built in to read the plate number from the photo and process it. A person only gets involved if the plate number can not be automatically read.


    In Norway we have automatic toll stations that works like this. You just drive like normaly without stopping. A camera takes your picture and reads the number. At the end of the month they send you a bill.
    If you complain someone takes a look at the images and compares that to the information in the national veacle database. The probability that someone with false plates have the same type of car with the same color as you is fairly slim.
  • Franz Kafka 2008-08-04 13:42
    sysKin:
    I don't know how it works in SA but here down under, you can either pay or point out who was driving if it wasn't you.

    All that needs to be done is the second option.


    Why should you have to do the cops' work? Simply pointing out that they don't have any evidence that _you_ were speeding should be enough. Oddly, this would make most traffic cameras pointless.
  • Crabs 2008-08-04 13:43
    Bappi:
    gabba:
    Hey, _somebody_ has to pay for this outrageous violation of the traffic laws. Might as well be the poor sap whose car is being towed.

    I would think it rather depends on why the car is being towed. If the car broke down, and the driver asked for a tow to the nearest garage, then the tow truck driver is basically working for the driver, and the driver may well be considered responsible. Conversely, if the car's being towed for something like a parking violation, then the tow truck driver is working for the city.


    If your limo driver gets pulled over, the limo driver gets the ticket, not you. Despite the existence of these cameras, traffic laws are specifically written that whoever is driving is committing the crime, and therefore responsible for the ticket.
  • moz 2008-08-04 13:43
    Sean Patterson:
    In most, if not all, states in the US there's a law requiring you to, if safely possible, clear the way for an emergency vehicle while the lights are on.
    I'd be very surprised if any of them consider driving past a red light to be a safe thing to do.

    The ambulance driver gets to decide whether he can break the law without causing an accident. You do not.
  • Vince 2008-08-04 13:45
    And driving a minivan with only 2 wheels. There has to be laws against that.
  • Anon 2008-08-04 13:45
    By that logic you should fine the passenger if a taxi driver is speeding. The guy who is driving the tow truck is speeding, not the guy getting his car towed. The fine should be handled as such.
  • Gnonthgol 2008-08-04 13:45
    Bappi:

    I would think it rather depends on why the car is being towed. If the car broke down, and the driver asked for a tow to the nearest garage, then the tow truck driver is basically working for the driver, and the driver may well be considered responsible. Conversely, if the car's being towed for something like a parking violation, then the tow truck driver is working for the city.


    It is the driver of the tow truck that is responsable and have to pay.
    It is illegal to let the company you work for pay for your traffic offences.
    If you tells the taxi driver to break the speed limit he is stil the driver and is the one that has to pay the fine.
  • Franz Kafka 2008-08-04 13:51
    DavidTC:
    Mike:
    Kanazuchi:
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.


    ...and doing wheelies. Double plus bad!

    I'm not sure that doing wheelies is illegal per se, but it's certainly driving recklessly....he couldn't even steer like that! (He's also almost certainly not watching the road.)

    More seriously, various traffic offenses are administrative, not 'legal' offenses, ie, it is illegal for your car to be in that position, regardless of the circumstances, I'm really wondering if he can get out of paying that fine.

    It is his car and it is going over 60.


    I wonder if you could put a electronic torque bias diff on the back axle and use that to steer when the front wheels were up in the air.
  • Sean Patterson 2008-08-04 13:52
    D-Coder:
    Works just great when your destination is the nearest emergency room.


    It also works great when you're near a hospital or ambulance dispatch. Call in the emergency as happening at your destination and follow the ambulance there. Bonus feature of everyone knowing exactly when you're pulling in!
  • Gnonthgol 2008-08-04 13:53
    moz:
    I'd be very surprised if any of them consider driving past a red light to be a safe thing to do.

    The ambulance driver gets to decide whether he can break the law without causing an accident. You do not.


    You do not have to create dangerous situations because you drive past the red light. You can make a right turn, change lane or even drive on the pavement to let the ambulance thrugh without creating any situations.
    On the other hand you are to stop if you hear sirens nearby because people might break trafic rules and you don't want to be there when they do.
  • S.A 2008-08-04 13:53
    Kanazuchi:
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.


    he was being towed, that's the point, moron.
  • Francisco 2008-08-04 13:55
    There's this famous story.

    Francisco
  • 5|i(3_x 2008-08-04 13:56
    Traffic cameras of any kind are about political expedience.

    Imagine yourself a policy maker. You have two options before you.

    1) Thanklessly spend tax and fee-payer money (probably at the expense of a popular albeit unfunded bike trail project) to optimize traffic flow so people can safely and efficiently get where they want to go (add lanes, improve timing of yellow lights, etc.).
    2) Allow company to install cameras. Split the revenue with them. Accept the heraldry and pomp afforded a 'champion of public safety'.

    Nobody wakes up in the morning thinking, "Hey, I could totally take advantage of my neighbors by running some red lights. I might even crash into one of them!" Given the fines involved, the only ones who benefit from punishing people for their unintentional mistakes are the collecters.

    Consider contacting your policy maker with the following suggestion: All such fines collected must be earmarked for road improvements. As it constitutes a conflict of interest, the revenues must be prohibited from going to enforcement. Enforcement should be payed for by those receiving the benefits of enforcement (the law-abiding drivers, people with property near the road, etc).

    Check out http://motorists.org
  • Sean Patterson 2008-08-04 13:57
    S.A:
    Kanazuchi:
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.


    he was being towed, that's the point, moron.


    WHOOOOSH
  • Space Hobo 2008-08-04 13:58
    My South African co-worker says that the tow trucks have a limited number of shops they can take the car to that will give them a cut of the repair bills. So they tend to race to accidents and then try to haul cars across town to an out-of-the-way repair shop as quickly as possible to make the most money.

    So this tow truck most likely was driving at 78, and it's not a radar failure.
  • Gnonthgol 2008-08-04 14:00
    Franz Kafka:

    I wonder if you could put a electronic torque bias diff on the back axle and use that to steer when the front wheels were up in the air.


    Real 4x4 (e.g. not the standard SUVs or trucks witch are made for the freeway) does have such devises. It is called breakes and is used indevidualy on each wheel to ensure that you don't get stuck with one wheel spinning.
    On tractors you have two break pedals for this reason, and is often used in steep hills when the front wheels comes off the ground.
  • Jay 2008-08-04 14:04
    <comment type='political'>
    Here in the U.S., our Constitution seems to guarantee that "no one shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law". But our government has passed laws saying that they can impose an "administrative fee" or confiscate property for what any ordinary person would call a "crime", but the government says that it is not a crime but an administrative action, and thus your constitutional rights do not apply. Like, if they suspect you of selling illegal property like drugs or weapons, they can confiscate any property that they believe you bought with the profits from the illegal sales. Even if you were never convicted of making illegal sales. I've come across a number of horror stories of people who were never charged with any crime or went to court and were found not guilty, but the government kept their property. I once came across a web site for law enforcement people that urged them to use such laws to fight drug dealers, explaining that this can be an effective method because it is so difficult to prove some of these cases in court.
    </comment>
  • Dianne 2008-08-04 14:04
    Had a similar photo f-up happen to us earlier this year (we also live in Ohio). I wrote about the incident here: http://planetdianne.blogspot.com/search?q=springfield

    Fortunately, the police were very nice about correcting the mistake.
  • Franz Kafka 2008-08-04 14:16
    Gnonthgol:

    You do not have to create dangerous situations because you drive past the red light. You can make a right turn, change lane or even drive on the pavement to let the ambulance thrugh without creating any situations.
    On the other hand you are to stop if you hear sirens nearby because people might break trafic rules and you don't want to be there when they do.


    How do you deal with the fact that getting out of the way for ambulances is likely to get you fined in NYC?
  • frustrati 2008-08-04 14:16
    Niels:
    Couldn't happen in Denmark.

    Speed cameras are required to get a recognisable picture of the driver's face ie. photograph the car from the front.
    What happens if the face is covered I'm not sure...

    The owner gets the ticket and will have to pay or tell who was driving. The latter still being on the edge of legality, as the police is basically blackmailing the owner. OTOH, the owner is by law responsible for the vehicle if (s)he lends it out...
  • Francisco 2008-08-04 14:17
    Gnonthgol:
    [...]
    You do not have to create dangerous situations because you drive past the red light. You can make a right turn, change lane or even drive on the pavement to let the ambulance thrugh without creating any situations.
    On the other hand you are to stop if you hear sirens nearby because people might break trafic rules and you don't want to be there when they do.


    In Britain the usual way of dealing with emergency vehicles is to go to the side of the road (or off it if it can be done safely), let the emergency vehicle pass, then continue with your journey.
  • Leak 2008-08-04 14:23
    shinobu:
    At least he didn't tie his girlfriend on the hood.

    Or take a shortcut through the subway...

    np: µ-Ziq - Carpet Muncher (Royal Astronomy)
  • Sutherlands 2008-08-04 14:26
    5|i(3_x:

    Nobody wakes up in the morning thinking, "Hey, I could totally take advantage of my neighbors by running some red lights. I might even crash into one of them!" Given the fines involved, the only ones who benefit from punishing people for their unintentional mistakes are the collecters.
    And no one gets up in the morning and thinks "Hey, I could totally take advantage of my neighbors by going 25 mph over the speed limit" either, but that's what they do anyway. People run red lights for the same reason they speed. Because they're too important to be bothered with waiting. As someone who's almost gotten flattened by a car (while on a motorcycle) because I stopped for the yellow when they wanted to go through, I can tell that you have no idea what you're talking about.
  • John 2008-08-04 14:37
    And on the wrong side of the road too!! ;-)
  • Bis 2008-08-04 14:38
    Kanazuchi:
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.


    And popping wheelies!
  • sf 2008-08-04 14:52
    Kanazuchi:
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.

    Not to mention driving on the wrong side of the road!
  • Andrew 2008-08-04 15:16
    soonermatt:
    I wouldn't be surprised if the truck sped knowing who would get the ticket.


    I wouldn't be surprised if the tow truck belonged to the police. Maybe they were towing it for some parking violation in the first place.
  • Peter 2008-08-04 15:20
    Niels:
    Couldn't happen in Denmark.

    Speed cameras are required to get a recognisable picture of the driver's face ie. photograph the car from the front.
    What happens if the face is covered I'm not sure...

    If it weren't monstrously dangerous (and I lived in denmark), I'd be tempted to duck below the dashboard every time I went through a camera intersection.
  • Merc63 2008-08-04 15:20
    Francisco:

    In Britain the usual way of dealing with emergency vehicles is to go to the side of the road (or off it if it can be done safely), let the emergency vehicle pass, then continue with your journey.


    That's the usual way in teh States, too. But some roadways 9there is one right outside where I work( have no "sides" to pull of into, especially in teh city, where you have parked cars and curbs that you can't pull onto unless you're in a 4x4. If you're at a stoplight, and you cannot move left due to a car being there (and they can't move left due to oncoming lanes, or a curb on a one way street) and you can't move right due to a car being there or a curb, where do you go to get out of the way of an ambulance or police car? You go forward and turn to flow with cross traffic to get out of the way.
  • Mitch 2008-08-04 15:21
    Krenn:
    charlie:
    I want to know how they got a numberplate out of the mass of white pixels that is his rear bumper!


    Oh, that part's easy. Just give it to one of the CSI guys down at the station, and he can hit the "enhance" button and clear it right up.


    They probably have a higher resolution image used internally. I'm assuming it's high res enough to give an accurate license plate number. The sucker, on the other hand, gets the midget version.
  • Mitch 2008-08-04 15:26
    operagost:
    Alex Papadimoulis:
    LJU:
    Well - he can always say that he wasn't driving at the time.


    FYI - here in Cleveland (and many, many other jurisdictions), even an affidavit saying you weren't behind the wheel isn't enough. You have to either (a) prove that the car wasn't yours or (b) give them the name/address of the driver. If you choose option (b) and the driver doesn't pay up, you still have to.

    I should also note... I have yet to receive a camera ticket, but I just find the whole process a little screwy.

    It's a violation of the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" contained within common law. Of course, being common law, it's not outlined in the Constitution. But it doesn't need to be, per the 9th amendment. A picture of your car is not enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.


    Queue up the Libertarians...
  • Technical Thug 2008-08-04 15:27
    moz:
    I'd be very surprised if any of them consider driving past a red light to be a safe thing to do.

    The ambulance driver gets to decide whether he can break the law without causing an accident. You do not.
    I've seen police ticketing people for failing to drive out of the ambulance's way. Yes, even when their only option was to move through a red light.

    At the end of the day, you're at the mercy of a system Kafka would be proud of, and the founders of our country fought a war to overturn. But since I can't really predict what the cops are going to decide, ex post facto, was the best thing for me to do, I'm gonna get out of the way if I can and let the ambulance through.
  • Mitch 2008-08-04 15:30
    Sean Patterson:
    vt_mruhlin:
    Have cities stopped doing the old trick where the traffic lights detect the emergency vehicle and change to accommodate it? I remember it used to work via a strobe light on top of the car, until people started making their own strobes on the same frequency. But surely they can come up with a better system nowadays. how about a GPS in each of the ambulances, with turn-by-turn navigation, that knows long in advance where they need to be and sets up their lights accordingly for the whole route?


    That's even better! Now I can just call in an emergency from a pay phone, wait till an ambulance drives by and follow it to my destination.


    Is that you John McClain?
  • Papa was a Rolling Stone 2008-08-04 15:38
  • ObiWayneKenobi 2008-08-04 15:46
    K&T:
    Actually, studies suggest they Increase Crashes

    They also increase revenue, which is the real reason they exist.


    This. At least someone sees the truth and isn't a sheep!
  • jas88 2008-08-04 15:51
    Jared:
    That sounds like bunk. There is a radar gun attached to the camera module. That is what records your speed. If it gets triggered by a speeder, then it has the camera take a picture. The photo is only for identification, not proof of speed. Multiple photos would likely be more for increased identification. Though there are enough stupid people around, I can see a speeder getting off with that argument.


    Some jurisdictions require two pieces of evidence, so the radar having measured your speed isn't enough; the radar readout plus the two timed photographs presumably meet the requirement for two pieces of evidence, where simply recording the measured speed would not.
  • ticket me, beautiful 2008-08-04 15:55
    you should get your eyes checked, that's a tow-truck, hence the point of this little enfarcement notice.

    as for cameras in general, if they are run by the government, and not a third party making money off of it, I am ok with it. because governments need money from speeding tickets and people need to be safe on the road. usually in this kind of situation, the person issued the ticket is allowed to make an appeal, this is clearly a mistake and if he could provide the information of the towing company he should be able to get out of it.
  • Ed 2008-08-04 15:57
    Are you from the UK, Canada, or Wrong?
  • diaphanein 2008-08-04 16:02
    snoofle:
    In New York City, they have those traffic cameras at many high-volume spots - and have for more than 20 years.

    However, since they catch the photo from the back, the rule is that the vehicle owner gets a non-point-value ticket $based-on-speed, regardless of who was driving.

    Unfortunately, it had the undesired effect of folks in the left lane, waiting for the light, refusing to go through for an ambulance 5 cars back, because there was no way to show the ambulance in the picture right behind you.


    And here I thought the whole time that it was just because New Yorkers are notorious assholes. Huh, guess you learn something new every day.
  • diaphanein 2008-08-04 16:02
    snoofle:
    In New York City, they have those traffic cameras at many high-volume spots - and have for more than 20 years.

    However, since they catch the photo from the back, the rule is that the vehicle owner gets a non-point-value ticket $based-on-speed, regardless of who was driving.

    Unfortunately, it had the undesired effect of folks in the left lane, waiting for the light, refusing to go through for an ambulance 5 cars back, because there was no way to show the ambulance in the picture right behind you.


    And here I thought the whole time that it was just because New Yorkers are notorious assholes. Huh, guess you learn something new every day.
  • seditious 2008-08-04 16:03
    The officer is "TANGO2", as in T2... this proves that trusting machines to police traffic is a step on the way to JUDGMENT DAY.
  • lolwtf 2008-08-04 16:17
    Cyrz:
    Krenn:
    Oh, that part's easy. Just give it to one of the CSI guys down at the station, and he can hit the "enhance" button and clear it right up.


    If you hit enhance twice, you can read the license plate of the tow truck through the car.
    But that'll expose the kernel. Better to just rotate the image so we can see between them.
  • Steve 2008-08-04 16:21
    Kanazuchi:
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.


    And driving in the oncoming traffic lane!
  • Jake Grey 2008-08-04 16:40
    I am really glad UK law doesn't allow these sorts of fines to be collected without at least nominal police involvement in their enforcement.
    Yet.

    Oh, and can I suggest not tail-gating behind an ambulance? The larger and more modern ones tend to have very large, very solid hydraulic lifting apparatus mounted under the rear doors at exactly the right height to go through a typical car windscreen if someone rear-ends it at speed. They may also contain at least one EMT or paramedic willing and able to beat the crap out of you with an O2 cylinder for being a complete and utter fucktard.
  • A Gould 2008-08-04 16:43
    Crabs:

    If your limo driver gets pulled over, the limo driver gets the ticket, not you. Despite the existence of these cameras, traffic laws are specifically written that whoever is driving is committing the crime, and therefore responsible for the ticket.


    As someone who *cough* managed to get a photo radar and an in-person ticket this year, I can speak for my local jurisdiction, at least.

    An in-person ticket (where the cop pulls you over, flashy lights, etc etc) charges me, the driver with excessive speed. I get demerits on my license, and so forth.

    A photo radar ticket is more closely related to a parking ticket - my vehicle was doing something it's not supposed to be doing, and thus I (as the owner) get fined. There's no demerits, no accusation that I personally did anything. (In Alberta photo radar is actually in the same category as "non-moving violations", ironically enough.) So, just like it doesn't matter who parked your car in the handicap stall, it doesn't matter who drove your car too fast, just that it was your car. (As a side note, if you rent a car around here, you have to sign a paper agreeing to pay any and all photo radar tickets issued during your rental.)

    For this one, it should be a slam-dunk reversal (either by common sense, or more likely, getting local media involved - sensationalism can work for our benefit.)
  • Bappi 2008-08-04 17:04
    Regarding the tow-ee being responsible for the ticket because the tow-er works in his employ: I see the error of my ways, and hang my head in shame.
  • Mark 2008-08-04 17:17
    lolwtf:
    Cyrz:
    Krenn:
    Oh, that part's easy. Just give it to one of the CSI guys down at the station, and he can hit the "enhance" button and clear it right up.


    If you hit enhance twice, you can read the license plate of the tow truck through the car.
    But that'll expose the kernel. Better to just rotate the image so we can see between them.

    Why not just hit the "Infrared button", to get an Infrared image of the tow truck driver based on his body heat; then hit the "reverse angle" button so you can see the face; and then hit the "Enhanced" button. Now you have a picture of the tow truck driver. Do a 5 second face recognition scan of the DMV records, and bingo... you can send the ticket to the correct driver.

    It's so simple, a Cave Man could do it. (US pop culture joke)
  • 5|i(3_x 2008-08-04 17:32
    Sutherlands:
    5|i(3_x:

    Nobody wakes up in the morning thinking, "Hey, I could totally take advantage of my neighbors by running some red lights. I might even crash into one of them!" Given the fines involved, the only ones who benefit from punishing people for their unintentional mistakes are the collecters.
    And no one gets up in the morning and thinks "Hey, I could totally take advantage of my neighbors by going 25 mph over the speed limit" either, but that's what they do anyway. People run red lights for the same reason they speed. Because they're too important to be bothered with waiting. As someone who's almost gotten flattened by a car (while on a motorcycle) because I stopped for the yellow when they wanted to go through, I can tell that you have no idea what you're talking about.


    I, for one, speed because the limits in my state have been set at least 6MPH below engineering guidlines (which would only criminalize 3 out of every 20 drivers) depending on the road. Abiding by the limit is actually more dangerous than speeding a bit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1B-Ox0ZmVIU ).

    Anyway, I recognize that many people speed for the sole purpose of haste. They believe themselves to be safe in doing so (and are usually correct in that assumption). However, I don't know anybody who thinks running through a well-timed red light is an acceptable risk.
  • danixdefcon5 2008-08-04 18:06
    vt_mruhlin:

    Have cities stopped doing the old trick where the traffic lights detect the emergency vehicle and change to accommodate it? I remember it used to work via a strobe light on top of the car, until people started making their own strobes on the same frequency. But surely they can come up with a better system nowadays. how about a GPS in each of the ambulances, with turn-by-turn navigation, that knows long in advance where they need to be and sets up their lights accordingly for the whole route?
    Isn't that a popular urban legend?

    http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/strobe.asp

    There is MIRT for Emergency Vehicles, of course, but I think its pretty illegal to use one of those in a non-emergency vehicle:

    http://www.themirt.com/how.html
  • danixdefcon5 2008-08-04 18:12
    5|i(3_x:
    However, I don't know anybody who thinks running through a well-timed red light is an acceptable risk.
    I do: The Eje 3 Sur and Dr. Vertiz intersection, at night. It crosses the "Buenos Aires" district, notorious for its high rates of carjacking during red lights. Drivers driving on Eje 3 Sur will usually pass any red lights in this vicinity; however most of these traffic lights default to "blinking yellow" after 11pm.

    Also, red-light running is allowed (with caution) from 12am to 5am; guess why this exception was made. Oh, this is Mexico City, by the way.
  • Manic Mailman 2008-08-04 18:55
    ticket me, beautiful:
    as for cameras in general, if they are run by the government, and not a third party making money off of it, I am ok with it. because governments need money from speeding tickets...

    And governments need money when:

    - I'm parking on the street
    - I go over certain bridges
    - I buy stuff
    - I use my phone
    - I own a home
    - I get tags for my dog
    - I get tags for my car
    - I work for my employer
    - I make money on my bank account - or God forbid - the stock market
    - ...

    Actually,I supposed it's easier to figure out when the government doesn't need my money.
  • Zemm 2008-08-04 19:08
    Speed cameras are required to get a recognisable picture of the driver's face


    Is that you speeding again, Bill Oddie?
  • Sutherlands 2008-08-04 19:21
    5|i(3_x:
    Anyway, I recognize that many people speed for the sole purpose of haste. They believe themselves to be safe in doing so (and are usually correct in that assumption). However, I don't know anybody who thinks running through a well-timed red light is an acceptable risk.
    Move to Phoenix.
  • Mikel 2008-08-04 20:40
    Is he being towed?

    That's a really, really bad picture.
  • Grimoire 2008-08-04 20:43
    Sutherlands:
    5|i(3_x:
    Anyway, I recognize that many people speed for the sole purpose of haste. They believe themselves to be safe in doing so (and are usually correct in that assumption). However, I don't know anybody who thinks running through a well-timed red light is an acceptable risk.
    Move to Phoenix.

    Having spent a summer in Phoenix, and can attest to the veracity of this statement.

    Crazy drivers down there. Traffic signals are considered "suggestions".
  • Dan Neely 2008-08-04 20:59
    Shades of Gordon Dickson. Computers Don't Argue.

    http://www.atariarchives.org/bcc2/showpage.php?page=133
  • Gamer 2008-08-04 21:01
    5|i(3_x:

    Nobody wakes up in the morning thinking, "Hey, I could totally take advantage of my neighbors by running some red lights. I might even crash into one of them!" Given the fines involved, the only ones who benefit from punishing people for their unintentional mistakes are the collecters.


    I'd introduce you to one of my former neighbours, but he's currently doing 6 years for killing 3 people.
    He knew it was completely safe to blow through the red light, as he'd been doing for years, because he could see the whole intersection was clear. What he couldn't see was the woman who pulled out of the next small side street because she could see the red light had stopped all the traffic.
  • H-Bomb 2008-08-04 21:05
    they did something like that in Die Hard 3..... lol
  • David 2008-08-04 22:28
    And driving with two wheels off the ground.
    And driving with no driver.

  • Jonniecumlately 2008-08-04 22:39
    Dear Man,
    We know you wear body armor, that is why we aim for the head...
  • fredricko 2008-08-05 00:02
    Enfarcement is all about revenue. If the cops didn't get the money I'm sure there would be less incentive for them to ticket mercilessly. Agree that all speeding violations should go to support road victims and pay for better infrastructure.

    In the UK IIRC you get demerits even via photo radar, and some city of London cameras will tag you for going 1mph over the limit. Ouch.

    I also was towed once from a 7am - 7pm area, with my issue being that it wasn't yet 7am. The impound lot, a 30 minute drive away, recorded the car entering the lot at 7:05am. A passionate plea of logic, arguing that unless the tow truck driver drove at over 200km/h through rush hour, my car was in fact removed before 7am and thus the whole thing invalid.

    All well and good, but I recall I had to pay on the spot to get my car out of impound, and in order to pay you had to plead guilty to the ticket. The subprime alternative is leaving my car in impound, pay for every day it's there, and try to argue for some indefinite amount of time and still losing because they don't care.

    If you get a ticket you're screwed. No checks/balances, and nobody in government turns off a source of revenue.

    There's no such thing as logic when dealing with government weenie's.

    At least it wasn't a $103,000 ticket
  • shepd 2008-08-05 02:23
    I believe the man running the province I live in put it very succinctly when he was trying to promote photo radar / traffic cameras:

    "I have long been a supporter of photo radar," the premier told reporters on his way into a cabinet meeting. "It's a revenue generator, absolutely."

    http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/01/14/radar_mcguinty040114.html

    I think, singlehandedly, it's that comment that kept photo radar off the streets here in Ontario, Canada. Sadly he didn't specifically say red-light cameras as well (No point infraction, no insurance reportage, several week delay before the ticket is received, how is that going to get a driver to be safer? The first intersection I've seen with it in my city now has 3 serious tow-truck and police requiring rear-end collisions each week, and those are just the ones I drive by.)
  • dogac 2008-08-05 02:24
    S.A:
    Kanazuchi:
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.


    he was being towed, that's the point, moron.

    Would you consider a career in rocket science?
  • Erzengel 2008-08-05 02:29
    ticket me, beautiful:
    you should get your eyes checked, that's a tow-truck, hence the point of this little enfarcement notice.


    WOOOSH v. 2

    "you should get your [sarcasm detector] checked". You should also try reading all comments before posting. As sugggested by the "v. 2" on my "WOOOSH", someone else had the same response as you and got a "WOOOSH" response back at them. You get to be "new and improved!" version 2, "now with 50% more stoooopid."

    WHY DO PEOPLE NOT READ POSTS? WHY DO PEOPLE FEEL THE NEED TO REPEAT WHAT EVERYONE ELSE HAS SAID?
    It's like Highschool, all the guppies dress exactly alike...
  • Erzengel 2008-08-05 02:30
    dogac:
    S.A:
    Kanazuchi:
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.


    he was being towed, that's the point, moran.

    Would you consider a career in rocket science?


    We've lost enough probes to people like S.A, please don't give him ideas. :-P
  • Miksu 2008-08-05 02:37
    Alex:
    I don't believe that even if you could prove there was an ambulance behind you it'd get you out of breaking the road rules... Would love it if you can find a law/exception in any country stating otherwise ;)


    Actually, in Finland the road traffic law states just that: emergency vehicles using the sirens and lights must be given way regardless of any traffic lights.
  • braamvh 2008-08-05 03:12
    Mizchief:
    I would challenge anyone to read that citation and then try to argue that we don't need a singular national language for offical business.


    Be glad it's only 2 of the 11 :)

    For a full list see point 1 at http://www.acts.co.za/constitution/6_languages.htm
  • teh_n1gz 2008-08-05 03:30
    60km/h is the limit in residential zones here. I love our traffic dept honestly, most of them can't even transcribe your details from your liscence correctly, it's great :/
  • Thomas 2008-08-05 04:57
    Hey thats my car... How'd you get your hands on this. It was a load of cr@p, check it out on snopes.com. This is definately PHOTOSHOPPED because my car is black.
  • Tourist 2008-08-05 05:17
    Cyrz:
    Krenn:
    Oh, that part's easy. Just give it to one of the CSI guys down at the station, and he can hit the "enhance" button and clear it right up.


    If you hit enhance twice, you can read the license plate of the tow truck through the car.


    no, they catch it on mirror image of the plate through three-five reflections in various rear-view mirrors and windows ultimately getting the reflection from the bald head of the tow truck driver.
  • Jurgen 2008-08-05 06:14
    Not sure for other countries, but in Belgium camera's will not trigger for speeds under 30km/h. Thus you can and must safely pass a red light to clear the way for an ambulance.
  • rainer 2008-08-05 06:17
    frustrati:
    Niels:
    Couldn't happen in Denmark.

    Speed cameras are required to get a recognisable picture of the driver's face ie. photograph the car from the front.
    What happens if the face is covered I'm not sure...

    The owner gets the ticket and will have to pay or tell who was driving. The latter still being on the edge of legality, as the police is basically blackmailing the owner. OTOH, the owner is by law responsible for the vehicle if (s)he lends it out...


    In Germany, you will NOT have to tell..it's their job to find out who's that person on the picture. If they can't find out, you'll be asked to document each drive for the next 0.5 to 2 years (just in case it happens again..so they can ask for the documentation to find the driver). The good thing is, on average this makes it more expensive to fine people, and discourages abusing speed cameras as revenue source.
  • GalacticCowboy 2008-08-05 07:02
    Gnonthgol:
    If you tells the taxi driver to break the speed limit he is stil the driver and is the one that has to pay the fine.


    But of course he'll leave the meter running during the time he's motionless at the side of the road...
  • blunden 2008-08-05 07:03
    Krenn:
    Oh, that part's easy. Just give it to one of the CSI guys down at the station, and he can hit the "enhance" button and clear it right up.
    I'm still waiting for that Photoshop plugin.

    Alex Papadimoulis:
    I guess this is the "beauty" of it being a "civil violation" instead of criminal. They don't actually send you a summons to court, only a "notice of liability" to the traffic department. You have zero chance of fighting the liability, as the ordinanceclearly states that, if it's your car, then you were liable.

    Because it's an administrative hearing, the rules of court/evidence do not apply... so when you ask to look at the mechanics of the camera, records of citations, etc. in hopes of finding a flaw in their system, they'll either laugh at you or aseess a several hundred dollar fee for "the information to be assembled and burned on to a disk."

    I guess the reason that all this is kosher in the eyes of the law (this has actually gone to Ohio's Supreme Court) is that it's a civil violation, not a criminal one. So, not paying means they can forward the matter to a collections agency (undoubtly impacting your credit score), sue you in civil court, and/or impound your vehicle if it's parked on city streets. So really, that's nothing.
    Thankfully I live in a country where identifying the car isn't enough. They need to prove you were driving it as well.
  • Mike 2008-08-05 07:06
  • GalacticCowboy 2008-08-05 07:17
    teh_n1gz:
    ...most of them can't even transcribe your details from your liscence correctly...


    wow, QFT... ;)
  • JDocs 2008-08-05 07:27
    In South Africa we drive on the other side of the road...
  • TheRider 2008-08-05 07:53
    Sean Patterson:
    vt_mruhlin:
    Have cities stopped doing the old trick where the traffic lights detect the emergency vehicle and change to accommodate it? I remember it used to work via a strobe light on top of the car, until people started making their own strobes on the same frequency. But surely they can come up with a better system nowadays. how about a GPS in each of the ambulances, with turn-by-turn navigation, that knows long in advance where they need to be and sets up their lights accordingly for the whole route?


    That's even better! Now I can just call in an emergency from a pay phone, wait till an ambulance drives by and follow it to my destination.
    That is precisely what my father once did. He was driving up some mountain pass in the Swiss alps, with all his family in the car. Due to an accident somewhere upfront, traffic was stuck and the going was tough. When the ambulance came from behind, my father rushed out of the waiting line and closed up to the ambulance, following it at full speed all the way to the accident site, then he passed by and kept going as if nothing had happened. The nurses in the back tried to wave him away, but he just stayed there.

    Well, this was more than thirty years ago and police wasn't so rough back then. Nowadays, I figure one would go to jail for such behavior. But we always had a good laugh when that story was recounted. Yep, my father used to be a nasty driver... :-)
  • SouthAfricanChick 2008-08-05 08:13
    Your missing the best part...the sliding scale...

    Yep...you never know how much they are going to charge you for going over the speed limit.

    Just one of the ways they like to keep you on your toes ;)
  • nufi 2008-08-05 08:24
    well, be happy that they didn't get you for tailgating
  • gosse 2008-08-05 08:44
    DavidTC:
    Mike:
    Kanazuchi:
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.


    ...and doing wheelies. Double plus bad!

    I'm not sure that doing wheelies is illegal per se, but it's certainly driving recklessly....he couldn't even steer like that! (He's also almost certainly not watching the road.)

    When on a sportsbike and doing wheelies, you get fined for "not being in control of the vehicle's acceleration." I would believe it would be the same for cars, even tho this one is most probably not rwd.
  • brian 2008-08-05 08:45
    If you look closely you can see this picture was obviously made by the same clowns who doctored the moon-landing footage... the shadows and reflections are all wrong.

    The South-African police are well known for their photoshop-ery

  • KenW 2008-08-05 09:20
    S.A:
    Kanazuchi:
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.


    he was being towed, that's the point, moron.


    S.A., you're not too bright, are you...
  • Tow truck guy 2008-08-05 09:22
    I hope people understand that the car was being towed.
  • Technical Thug 2008-08-05 09:40
    GalacticCowboy:
    Gnonthgol:
    If you tells the taxi driver to break the speed limit he is stil the driver and is the one that has to pay the fine.


    But of course he'll leave the meter running during the time he's motionless at the side of the road...


    Just pay the fare and walk away. The Supreme Court has ruled that passengers in the vehicle are not considered detained and are totally free to walk away.

    (Yeah right; just try that and see what happens.)
  • KenW 2008-08-05 09:43
    JDocs:
    In South Africa we drive on the other side of the road...


    Let me guess... You're somehow related to S.A., aren't you? Am I right?
  • Jeremy 2008-08-05 10:04
    well, with today's gas prices, I'm sure he was just trying to draft and save money
  • Mitch 2008-08-05 10:09
    danixdefcon5:
    vt_mruhlin:

    Have cities stopped doing the old trick where the traffic lights detect the emergency vehicle and change to accommodate it? I remember it used to work via a strobe light on top of the car, until people started making their own strobes on the same frequency. But surely they can come up with a better system nowadays. how about a GPS in each of the ambulances, with turn-by-turn navigation, that knows long in advance where they need to be and sets up their lights accordingly for the whole route?
    Isn't that a popular urban legend?

    http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/strobe.asp

    There is MIRT for Emergency Vehicles, of course, but I think its pretty illegal to use one of those in a non-emergency vehicle:

    http://www.themirt.com/how.html


    It's not an urban myth. 2600 Magazine did a writeup of this technique a LONG time ago.
  • Regression 2008-08-05 11:47
    And this is what the phenomenon is called: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_toward_the_mean
  • Pecos Bill 2008-08-05 13:07
    danixdefcon5:
    vt_mruhlin:

    Have cities stopped doing the old trick where the traffic lights detect the emergency vehicle and change to accommodate it? I remember it used to work via a strobe light on top of the car, until people started making their own strobes on the same frequency. But surely they can come up with a better system nowadays. how about a GPS in each of the ambulances, with turn-by-turn navigation, that knows long in advance where they need to be and sets up their lights accordingly for the whole route?
    Isn't that a popular urban legend?

    http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/strobe.asp


    You need to read snopes more carefully. Here in Denver, CO, we do have some of those strobe sensors. (They seem to be phasing them out possibly for MIRT or other tech.) I've seen the strobe module on emergency vehicles. The point of the snopes article is that you cannot flash your headlights correctly to trigger it. You have to have a true strobe. Also, I've had to sit forever for a light to change probably due to it being blinded by the setting sun. I expect that light had a MIRT which runs on infrared.

    snopes article:
    A problem with a cause-and-effect belief in this scenario is that many intersections aren't equipped with strobe-detecting sensors, so motorists end up flashing their lights at traffic signals that don't care. And even when drivers happen upon strobe-enabled signals, the sensors are set to detect lights flashing at a rate so rapid (in the neighborhood of 14 flashes per second) that a human working a manual headlight switch couldn't possibly imitate it. Moreover, some traffic pre-emption systems are now activated not just by an on-off alternation of lights, but by a specific pattern of flashing.
  • Viat 2008-08-05 13:18
    This was amusing before I saw that it was local. Now I'm unsurprised.
  • Worf 2008-08-05 13:18
    Pecos Bill:
    You need to read snopes more carefully. Here in Denver, CO, we do have some of those strobe sensors. (They seem to be phasing them out possibly for MIRT or other tech.) I've seen the strobe module on emergency vehicles. The point of the snopes article is that you cannot flash your headlights correctly to trigger it. You have to have a true strobe. Also, I've had to sit forever for a light to change probably due to it being blinded by the setting sun. I expect that light had a MIRT which runs on infrared.


    Good systems actually use a data link - the strobing actually is coded to trigger the light. I don't have the specifics, but that's the basic way they work now to counteract these fake light changes (and sun issues). Just respond to a code. Do it right and you can even do crude tracking of units.

    Of course, the better systems yet actually turn the lights red 4 ways. It thus defeats the devices, and doesn't impede emergency services (since they have right of way through red). If they get stuck in traffic, they turn off emergency signals (which they should do in case the driver in front panics and refuses to move - does happen. And emergency services would prefer non-moving cards to dodge around than moving ones) which should make the lights work normally. Also means that the intersection clears itself of traffic.
  • ricochet 2008-08-05 13:40
    Not only tailgating, but 'pulling a wheelie' also. Must be a 'funny-car' with a VW body...
  • moz 2008-08-05 14:25
    fredricko:
    In the UK IIRC you get demerits even via photo radar, and some city of London cameras will tag you for going 1mph over the limit. Ouch.

    It's not true, but the police won't bother you if you pretend it is. A foreigner would only be fined in any case.
  • Kaon 2008-08-06 01:35
    5|i(3_x:
    Nobody wakes up in the morning thinking, "Hey, I could totally take advantage of my neighbors by running some red lights. I might even crash into one of them!" Given the fines involved, the only ones who benefit from punishing people for their unintentional mistakes are the collecters.


    I don't know where you live, but as far as I'm concerned it's in a galaxy far far a way.

    About 5 years ago, I've heard - first hand - two guys boast about doing more-or-less what you talk about. It was at the pool of a friend's apartment complex - there was an impromptu party and one guy and his dad, both with an alcohol problem, went ranting about how they'd fall asleep (while being drunk) on a freeway exit ramp, and so on and so on. I'm quite sure it was all true, and that they missed a few mishaps they had since forgotten or were too drunk at the time to remember. The son has been cited for drunk driving, at leat once -- I didn't bother looking up other citations; it was in the public record.

    Yes, there are morons who willfully not only break the law, but endanger others, and who keep on doing just that, for the sheer fun of it.

    In other words: get down to earth, lest I classify you a total reality-ignoramus and thus almost as dangerous as the people whose existence you so vehemently deny. Geez.
  • Shinobu 2008-08-06 06:55
    MBV:
    Because I'm Dutch, it's a really funny read for me :)
    Yep, me too, I lol'd hard, although not just because of the language. Still, I found the Afrikaans easier to read than the English, even with the wierd words and stuff, strangely enough.

    Oh, and to all you camera haters out there, I don't know how stuff is abroad, but here in the Netherlands there used to be quite a number of roads with consistently high death tolls that were fixed at least partly by cameras. Worst thing I heard was a three lane provincial road that was being driven on like it was a four lane highway.

    In France, I noticed that they put signs along the road at every spot where someone was killed in an accident. Don't know if it actually helps, but I sort of liked the idea.
  • jochen 2008-08-06 08:34
    You Should be glad that no one noticed the lack of savety distance to the car in front :D
    At least, it's a color photograph.
  • JohnnH G 2008-08-06 13:57

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/4626952.stm
  • Dan 2008-08-06 14:03
    We had a case here in Australia where a lady received a ticket and photo of her little old Datsun doing around 170km/h.

    A TV show picked up on this and had a professional driver take the car to a race course. Of course wearing full racing gear and helmet for good effect.

    Going down the back straight, with foot to the floor, the car would top out at 140km/h and sit there for a good while.

    The lady still had to pay the fine for 170km/h

    -Dan
  • HUH? 2008-08-06 16:33
    Are you blind? His car was being towed by the tow truck!
  • HUH? 2008-08-06 16:35
    Kanazuchi:
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.


    Are you Blind? His car was being towed by the tow truck
  • BrownHornet 2008-08-06 17:02
    HUH?:
    Kanazuchi:
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.
    Are you Blind? His car was being towed by the tow truck
    Was there some sort of massive EMP that disabled everyone's sarcasm detectors?
  • law abiding citizen 2008-08-06 18:46
    rainer:


    In Germany, you will NOT have to tell..it's their job to find out who's that person on the picture. If they can't find out, you'll be asked to document each drive for the next 0.5 to 2 years (just in case it happens again..so they can ask for the documentation to find the driver). The good thing is, on average this makes it more expensive to fine people, and discourages abusing speed cameras as revenue source.


    Thats not entirely true, only if a family member was driving, since you don't have to be a witness against your own family. If it was someone else you could claim that you don't know, but you still would have to tell who the people that have access to your car are.

    I don't know about the discouragement, I know of cases where they had pictures of a car running a red light but only from the backside of the car, so the driver was obviously not identifiable. They still tried even though they know it's not worth anything in court (quite surprising for Germany, but the car lobby is strong). I guess there are enough people who cave and pay up.
  • RF 2008-08-07 07:04
    "die district"? Shudder. I wouldn't want to buy a house there.
  • GDI Lord 2008-08-07 07:08
    Unfortunately here in South Africa speed cameras and traffic "officers" with mobile cameras are motivated almost exclusively to generate revenue, both for the local municipalities and for (some of them) themselves.
  • spxza 2008-08-07 10:54
    Kanazuchi:
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.


    And driving without a seat belt.

    Dail:
    And TRWTF is that a tow truck cannot drive over 60km/h?

    Probably that the tow truck drivers know the roads so well that they should know where all the cameras are. That camera is too high to be a temporary one, which in .za are put on low tripods. And Plett is a small town.
  • Beedub 2008-08-07 19:38
    Gilgamesh:
    Here in Brazil we had a case much worse than this. The car was traveling at 4800km/h... yes, mach 4...
    Look here:


    What's even more amusing is that it was a VW Golf.
  • Tormod 2008-08-08 04:59
    And that his taglight was out....
  • Speeder 2008-08-08 20:23
    4800 km/h car must use a lot of gas. Wouldn`t mind driving a car that went that fast if I could only afford the gas & could keep it on the road. Minor details.....Hehehehe!
    :)
  • csm 2008-08-08 20:41
    HUH?:
    Kanazuchi:
    He should consider himself lucky -- the picture clearly shows he was tailgating too.


    Are you Blind? His car was being towed by the tow truck


    Now how could he possibly answer your question if he truly is blind? Or is my ability to detect rhetorical questions just as poor as your ability to detect sarcasm?
  • Mike 2008-08-09 02:10
    All those expensive traffic cameras and they can be overpowered by a little 3 dollar can of spray paint
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  • �������ͻ� 2009-02-06 16:30
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  • huojia 2009-03-02 00:38
    &nbsp;&nbsp;
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    南京货架设备要产品包括:重型货架
    ,阁楼货架,超市Shelf,重量型货架,横梁式货架,驶入式货架... 仓储笼
    货架的形式与材料 · 立体仓库 · 货架厂
    物流规划设计的步骤与程序(货架的设计... 中国物流行业呈现三足鼎立抢市场 · 亚洲第三方物流的现状和发展 ... 托盘
    抽出式货架系列 · 重力式 货架/推入式货架钢托盘
    移动式货架 · 阁楼式货架 · 悬臂式货架
    系列 长件物料储存货架&nbsp;货架公司
  • fdsz 2009-04-22 08:27

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