• Perplexed (unregistered)

    Am I the only one with a positive experience with a recruiter?

    I was laid off after the dot-com bubble crashed. I signed up with several recruiters I was sent out on several job interviews and got one closer to home than my previous job.

    Unfortunately it was a contract-to-hire position with a hotel chain in the US that started 10 September 2001.

    After three weeks "due to loss of revenue due to all of the cancellations" my contract was canceled (they actually gave me two weeks notice, very nice of them.)

  • (cs) in reply to Perplexed
    Perplexed:
    Am I the only one with a positive experience with a recruiter?

    I've had experiences with 3 separate recruiters, and only 1 (the most recent one) really worked out for me. The first is that whole RHT bullshit I wrote about previously. The second recruiter placed me at a job that I was way too overqualified for (glorified copy boy). I made it known to the recruiter that I had a degree in CS and was looking for a programming job, but he sent me to this place anyway. It actually wasn't a bad place at all, but the hours were terrible (12am - 8am) and the work was very boring (when there actually was work).

    A recruiter placed me at my current job and it's worked out really well. However, as far as the recruiter is concerned, I think it's just a coincidence. Just like used car salesmen, these guys will try to place you at any job they have available, with almost total disregard for the wants of the individual or needs of the company. A lot of these tech recruiters don't have the slightest clues about technology at all (one guy actually yelled at me because I didn't know the difference between 3rd normal form and BCNF, wtf?).

    It's just dumb luck that once in a while someone gets placed at a company they actually like.

  • GregoryD (unregistered)

    I've been a recruiter, back when I was looking for anything and needed a job (I now develop web applications).

    Here's the deal: new recruiters are given the horrible candidates from other recruiters' databases in the same company. They usually don't have jobs right away for the candidates because they're really just trying to network around to find the best candidates and clients they can find. There's a process involved... candidates yield potential clients and candidates, who in turn can yield more potential clients and candidates. Recruiters don't actively search for specific positions. Instead, they network the client managers they're in contact with to see if there are any positions available. They then go through the pool of candidates they have to see if they match.

    That's pretty much the way the business HAS to be. They have to get the candidate in front of the client before the client puts the job up on Dice or Monster, or they're likely to lose out on the 20% markup.

    The key to working with recruiters is to only work with the guys who sound like aggressive superstars. They WILL call your references and attempt to network them because it's standard business practice, so protect your references and only give them out when you have a job waiting. The more polished they are on the phone, the more polished they are talking to the client, the more likely they're going to find openings for you.

    And hey, shit happens. Jobs fall through because of all sorts of problems. Sometimes the best clients can have issues.

    Bottom line is, don't go bitching about recruiters unless you're doing your own legwork on the side. When a recruiter finds you a job, you should look at it as a bonus, not an expectation.

  • Anonymous (unregistered)

    I have unsubscribed from your RSS until you get rid of this unfunny, poorly drawn crap.

  • Tei (unregistered)

    Good Luck with the Comic!

  • recruiters are terrorists (unregistered) in reply to GregoryD
    GregoryD:
    I've been a recruiter, back when I was looking for anything and needed a job (I now develop web applications).

    ...

    Bottom line is, don't go bitching about recruiters unless you're doing your own legwork on the side. When a recruiter finds you a job, you should look at it as a bonus, not an expectation.

    Awwwww boo hoo poor you. I'm happy to do my own legwork, the problem is asshole recruiters locking up all the employers, so if you go to the employer directly they say "we do all our recruiting through xyz".

    If a company advertises itself, they immediately get harassed by recruiters telling them they can do a better job. Recruiters constantly pass on the bottom of the barrel to companies so they can maximize their margins.

    I have never met a recruiter that wasn't a lying scumbag. They'll lie about the job to candidates, they'll lie to the employer about the candidate, they'll lie about negotations, they'll lie about the contract. They can't help but lie.

    Recruiters are parasites on society and are probably responsible for 99% of the wtf'ery on this site.

  • paul (unregistered)

    I am not opposed to web comics in general but this one is poorly-executed and there hasn't been any discernible humor in either strip.

  • (cs)

    Here in Belgium people come out of a College school and then they become a teacher...

  • Anon (unregistered) in reply to KattMan
    KattMan:
    Personally, I'd like to keep this off the front page.

    I surf here at work sometimes, and it is easy to say it is work related as it is a tech site that gives the anti-thesis on what should be done, which is just as important as knowing the right way to do things. This claim will be much harder if someone can come by and then claim that I'm sitting here reading some comic strip.

    So by all means do your web comic, just not here on the front page, or perhaps even not on this site. Create a new site or a new sidebar item to host these. Be aware of your audience and what the impression would be purely from a glance at the page.

    If you are that worried about it, you could block the images on the site, then the page would look more "work related"

  • (cs) in reply to bah
    bah:
    KattMan:
    Personally, I'd like to keep this off the front page.

    I surf here at work sometimes, and it is easy to say it is work related as it is a tech site that gives the anti-thesis on what should be done, which is just as important as knowing the right way to do things. This claim will be much harder if someone can come by and then claim that I'm sitting here reading some comic strip.

    So by all means do your web comic, just not here on the front page, or perhaps even not on this site. Create a new site or a new sidebar item to host these. Be aware of your audience and what the impression would be purely from a glance at the page.

    Is that all? Anything else they can do to keep you happy?

    Well, Kattman is not so wrong. People often try to mob you and this is just one occasion to add something to it.

  • Proko (unregistered) in reply to Rev. Spaminator
    Rev. Spaminator:
    You know, as much as those jobs suck, they are usually the only way to get a real first job on your resume. Bonus if you stumble into a good situation and get picked up the by the organization after proving you have a brain.

    Prior to that, interviews went something like this...

    "So a degree in Mathematics & Physics, that is quite impressive. But what relevant work experience do you have?"

    "Uh, well... " Lots of humming and hawing follows. Truth be told, you were getting a degree in Math and Physics. Any spare time you had was spent getting drunk and a few other things so you could recover from partial differential equations.

    I have never heard that anyone could better describe how getting degree in Math and Physics works. But anyway I'm learning Physics in university and working from side is possible only if you care only about getting through from university not the grades with what you get through( luckly, I dont care ). And actually I don't even want to hear about partial differential equations. But about that story. In the country where I live, there is so high demand for programmers and administrators, that computer science guy's are pulled to work from the first year in university and there are talks, that about 85% second year drop-out's are dropping out because they can't to that much work and school in the same time.

  • Anonymous Coward (unregistered)

    My first point is, what the heck! As if I don't spend enough time in front of my monitor. Now you're trying to ruin my eyesight even more. Can you use a sharper anti-aliasing?

    And my second is that, having interned at an investment company, I learnt that consultants of software providers get poked and prodded by the IT analysts of external companies which use their products. No "consulting" for me after I graduate (at least as much as I can help it). :P

  • Mez (unregistered) in reply to recruiters are terrorists
    recruiters are terrorists:
    Recruiters are parasites on society and are probably responsible for 99% of the wtf'ery on this site.

    Hear, hear! I'm going to go one further, and suggest that agents of any time are the scum of society....employment agents, real esatate agents.

  • Mez (unregistered) in reply to Proko
    Proko:
    I have never heard that anyone could better describe how getting degree in Math and Physics works. But anyway I'm learning Physics in university and working from side is possible only if you care only about getting through from university not the grades with what you get through( luckly, I dont care ). And actually I don't even want to hear about partial differential equations. But about that story. In the country where I live, there is so high demand for programmers and administrators, that computer science guy's are pulled to work from the first year in university and there are talks, that about 85% second year drop-out's are dropping out because they can't to that much work and school in the same time.

    Which country would that be?

  • tragomaskhalos (unregistered)

    This must be how the consultants who did the "requirements" capture for my current project were recruited! (1 year + 2 people + a million quid => 1 big useless excel spreadsheet)

  • (cs)

    Let me jump in on the "recruiters are scum" bandwagon. Every time I've dealt with one, it's led to absolutely nothing but a waste of my time. 90% of them want me to drive over an hour (usually further than the job they advertise for) to meet with them, before they even tell me anything about the job that they advertised in the first place! For a real interview this isn't so bad, but to meet with some non-technical idiot who thinks he knows about technology? Fuck that.

    And yet, over 90% of the jobs that I see listed are listed via staffing agencies and headhunters. Not a one listed by the hiring company itself, so I at least know who it is and what they do.

  • ChrisH (unregistered)

    A BS in Computer Science?

    I've got BS in almost all subjects. The consultancy job is mine!!! Muuahahahhaahaaa.

  • Brett (unregistered)

    Has anyone else adopted a position of not dealing with recruiters?

    I got tired of dealing with them. They either offer me jobs I'm not qualified for or the offers just suck. I also want to control the direction of my career. Recruiters don't do that, they are out for themselves. I understand why they are that way, they are in business to make money for their company.

  • (cs)

    This, ladies and gentlemen, is why you need internships.

    (As a student, not as a company.)

  • (cs) in reply to James
    James:
    My question is, who gets screwed more: the fresh-faced graduate, or the company he gets sent to "consult" for?

    I went straight from college to working as a consultant. I'm aware that I don't have the experience of others in the industry, but looking around at the employees where I work... I'm f***ing happy that I'm not one of them.

    Most are complete idiots, with credential more dubious than my own. Awful social skills, terrible management/communication skills. The project they are running is an utter disaster: 7 years with not 1 line of code in production, spending $500 mil per year and employing over 200 people. Some of them can't touch type. Most of them can't program. None of them can design.

    Sigh.

  • (cs) in reply to savar

    Also, you folks are all off on the nomenclature.

    Contractor: Fills roles temporarily in client organizations that can't afford to hire an employee due to the short term nature of the work.

    Temp: See <Contractor>. Derogatory connotation.

    Consultant: Work on behalf of a client who doesn't have the [manager or expert] resources to complete the work themselves.

    Staff Aug: If you're a consultant who got stuck doing contracting work anyway, Staff Aug is a nice way to explain to your parents that you're an IT temp.

  • JimM (unregistered) in reply to Eternal Density
    Eternal Density:
    Meh, I prefer the following [code]Posted narbonic strip snipped out fopr everyone's sanity
    I did wonder if anyone else would pick up on the narbonic similarity. if this webcomic turns out to be even a quarter as good as narbonic then it'll still be better than 80% of the webcomics out there.

    The thing that gets me is the fact that the vast majority of people who are dissing the comic can't even be bothered to register on the site! Erm, guys... you do realise that you are essentially totally anonymous, right? (says the guy who hasn't bothered to register yet ;^) )

    btw, I think the recruiter thing is somewhat different in the UK; apart from the annoying fake job ads that get issued to farm CVs, they generally send you details of jobs that are relevant to your level of experience and area of expertise...

  • (cs) in reply to Outlaw Programmer
    Outlaw Programmer:
    Here goes my evil recruiter story. I was just out of school (with a BS in Comp Sci no less!) and was having a hard time finding a job. A guy from a huge recruiting agency (initials RHT) calls me up and says he'd like to talk. I show up, ace the 2 programming tests that he gives me, and I'm psyched about all the phat loot that he's promised me. Only...he never hooks me up with a client. He doesn't call me once in like 6 months. Of course, after month 1 I recognize the guy is a snake so I keep looking for another job. And when do I hear from him again? Yup, the first day at my new job!
    My personal experience with RHT says that you should have followed up with him every few days. That helps keep your resume on top of his stack. I only had two recruiters out of four at RHT that would actively "sell" me rather than just add my resume to the database.
  • (cs)

    My experience with recruiters was essentially good. I put my resume up on Monster, and immediately heard from about six of them. One interviewed me by phone and the others had me come in. The first one offered me less than I wanted for a position with no benefits, so I asked for $5/hour more. We finished the interview but I never heard from her again. The others were equally vague, but one guy was sincere enough to wait for two hours while I battled Dallas 5:00 o'clock traffic to get to his office, getting lost twice in the process. This guy sent me on four interviews. In 2000, before .Net, I was a VB6 developer, and the four positions were all for a guy with those skills. The first was the local branch of McAfee, and I botched that interview, as I have told in another thread here. Second was a company with one flagship product which they updated annually. The third was an investment company with lots of utilities to be built for internal use. They and I did not get a comfortable feeling about each other. Finally he sent me to interview for the position I still hold now, almost eight years later.

    When I accepted this postiion, the people with the flagship product tried to woo me away. They asked me to come have dinner with them and discuss terms. But the thing was, they were developing a win32 product, and this position was web-oriented. And I wanted to be working on the web.

    The recruiter was straight up with me and with the hirers. He was a good man, so far as I saw.

    However, in the time since then, I've seen a few in connection with interviews I've done who would shake your confidence.

  • Captaffy (unregistered)

    I have had absolutely zero luck with recruiters, and I don't know how many I've dealt with. Twenty at least. They lie. Constantly. (Every job I've gotten has been the result of knowing someone in the company that got me an interview.)

    The last recruiter I dealt with said the hiring company was okay with limited telecommuting (which was a necessity for me at the time), and yet when I finally spoke to someone at the company, this was not the case. I don't understand what the recruiter stood to gain by lying. Did he think that I would be so enamoured with the company that I'd just throw my obligations out the window? All he did was waste my time, and the hiring company's time.

    I've chosen to never deal with a recruiter again, even though I suspect that will lead to me having to leave this field.

  • Proko (unregistered) in reply to Mez

    Estonia, in case you have ever heard about it.

  • Proko (unregistered) in reply to Proko
    Proko:
    Estonia, in case you have ever heard about it.

    It was answer to Mez question.

  • Evil Otto (unregistered) in reply to Captaffy

    You're lucky that's ALL they lied to you about.

    The job I had before this one (found through the Judge Group - never ever ever EVER work with these scumbags) was represented to me with a level of compensation that turned out to be $20,000 more than what the job actually paid me in total. They lied about the bonus structure (I guess it's really easy to mistake 1.5% of your total salary for $1000 to $5000, which is what they told me), they lied to me about the 401k match (what, the vesting percentages aren't the same thing as the employee match? Wait, it's actually illegal for a company to match up to 20% of your salary into the 401k?).

    Current job was found by my company putting an ad on Monster, and searching through the resume listings for good candidates. Came in, talked with my current boss, got the offer that evening.

    THIS IS THE WAY IT'S SUPPOSED TO WORK. Recruiters only exist to line their own pockets at the expense of making it harder to get a job. They profit off of our skills because the only skills they have are lying, cheating, and schmoozing. I'd like to see the whole industry legislated out of existence (or at the very least regulated to the point where EVERYTHING MUST BE IN WRITING.)

    In a similar vein, my advice to those who must deal with these leeches because they have the job market sewn up:

    1. Do NOT go to meet them just to 'meet the team' or to 'talk about your background'. Ask them if they have a particular position in mind, and to tell you about it. If they don't, tell them you are going on so many interviews that you have to be selective about how you budget your time (even if that's a complete lie - they lie to you, so you better lie to them). If they do describe a position, make sure you ask if it's still open and when the company is looking to place someone. I've shown up at a recruiting office only to be told that the position they told me about had been filled 3 days ago, by someone other than the person I talked to. (Gotta love catching them in a lie.)
    2. Ask if it's ok to come in wearing 'business casual' clothes. Don't waste a dry-cleaning on these scumbags. If they want you to come in in a suit, it's a red flag that they're looking to have you make an emotional investment in working for them.
    3. IF IT ISN'T IN WRITING, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. If there is an offer, make DAMN SURE you contact the client company first to confirm the details of the offer. If the recruiter asks you not to contact them directly, ignore them. You have to look out for your own interests, because they sure as hell aren't going to.
    4. Ask who the client company is as early as possible. They may not tell you right away, but eventually they'll tell you where you have to go for an interview. At the very least you'll be able to do some homework on the company, to find out what kind of a place it is to work, what their business prospects are, what kind of business they're in, and so forth. It may turn out that the reason they're using recruiters is that their turnover is huge because they treat their people like crap. If you haven't signed anything with the recruiter indicating that you won't contact the client directly, check to see if the job is posted online and contact them directly. Chances are the company will realize that they can save the recruiter's fee by not using them, and agree to talk to you. However, don't mention the recruiter at all to the client company; they may not appreciate your end-run (even though it's better for everyone involved.)
    5. Remember that until you verify otherwise yourself, EVERY WORD THAT COMES OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS IS A LIE.
    6. Recruiters make money by placing people. If they want to charge YOU for getting placed, turn around and RUN, not walk, away.
    7. Remember that without you, they make no money. Comport yourself accordingly, and don't take any crap from them.

    Why yes, I have been screwed over by many recruiters; I seem to be a slow learner. RHT actually wanted ME to pay THEM once to find me a job. When I didn't have the $3700 they wanted, that was that.

  • Martin (unregistered)

    Personally I have had decent luck with recruiters. When I was a total noob they were useless but now that I have actual skills I know that I can count on them if I need a job quick. The last time I was unemployed I got in touch with a recruiter and was placed within 3 days of first contact at a very good hourly salary with almost unlimited overtime. Basically if you have no demonstrable skills and the market is a bear then recruiters are useless. But if you have skills and the job market is in good shape they are the fastest way to get a job IMHO.

  • zip (unregistered) in reply to Brett
    Brett:
    Has anyone else adopted a position of not dealing with recruiters?

    I have to answer the phones in my office (satellite office, part of a larger company) and we get calls from recruiters constantly. My greatest pleasure is saying to them "I'm sorry, we don't work with recruiters" and then listening to them squawk for a bit before I hang up.

  • fellow illustrator (unregistered) in reply to ET
    ET:
    This is worse than your half-assed text diatribes. Yeah, it's your site... but why can't you just keep it to what it's always been -- amusing anecdotes from real life IT, not weak attempts at breaking into new industries?

    :::snip:::

    YOU are not why people come here.

    Wow, I rarely (if ever) post here, but this response really hit too close to home.

    I did post on a couple message boards in a different area of interest over a few years and, one day, I started to receive some pretty stupid complaints about my posting style. There was a time when moderately intelligent people with a point would express it at length, allowing opponents to see why an opinion was held while providing an outlet for their own views. Unfortunately, I didn't keep up for a bit and had a rude awakening to an enraged crowd of "me too" drama queens sputtering and choking on proper sentence structure and coherent thoughts.

    I travelled around aimlessly for a few weeks, alternating between pitying and cursing them. Then, one day, I imagined a humorous (if a little mean) drawing that opened up the possibility of doing a regular editorial cartoon. It would be a grand experiment...could I win over in pictures those who would howl at the written word?

    A year and 40-some editions later, I have tentative answers to that question. On one board, it's gotten me some fans, particularly in the creative community. On another, I've been chided for the effort (100+ drivel posts per week is cool, but spend an hour drawing and you need to get a life) but my point is not entirely lost. I can't wait to see what happens when I cast the net a little wider.

    I really hope Alex is taking into account the source, as well as content, of these critical remarks. A few sound like they come from people who don't get it and/or couldn't draw to save their life, but need to feel big hiding behind a keyboard. This is his site and his soapbox and I think the comic's a fantastic idea even if the execution needs work.

  • RBob (unregistered) in reply to GregoryD
    GregoryD:
    I've been a recruiter, back when I was looking for anything and needed a job (I now develop web applications).

    Here's the deal: new recruiters are given the horrible candidates from other recruiters' databases in the same company. They usually don't have jobs right away for the candidates because they're really just trying to network around to find the best candidates and clients they can find. There's a process involved... candidates yield potential clients and candidates, who in turn can yield more potential clients and candidates. Recruiters don't actively search for specific positions. Instead, they network the client managers they're in contact with to see if there are any positions available. They then go through the pool of candidates they have to see if they match.

    That's pretty much the way the business HAS to be. They have to get the candidate in front of the client before the client puts the job up on Dice or Monster, or they're likely to lose out on the 20% markup.

    The key to working with recruiters is to only work with the guys who sound like aggressive superstars. They WILL call your references and attempt to network them because it's standard business practice, so protect your references and only give them out when you have a job waiting. The more polished they are on the phone, the more polished they are talking to the client, the more likely they're going to find openings for you.

    And hey, shit happens. Jobs fall through because of all sorts of problems. Sometimes the best clients can have issues.

    Bottom line is, don't go bitching about recruiters unless you're doing your own legwork on the side. When a recruiter finds you a job, you should look at it as a bonus, not an expectation.

    I began working as a consultant in a niche market (Remedy, now BMC Remedy) several years ago. The company that pushed me into Remedy went tennis-shoes-up. Life has been good, probably because it's a niche market with some demand. Remedy "developers" with a software and systems background are hard to find. In all but one case, for me it's been one interview, one job--after the recruiter screening. Also, the organization needing my services usually finds me and tells whatever recruiter the organization uses to hire me.

  • mal(adjusted) (unregistered) in reply to GregoryD
    GregoryD:
    I've been a recruiter, back when I was looking for anything and needed a job (I now develop web applications).

    Here's the deal: new recruiters are given the horrible candidates from other recruiters' databases in the same company. They usually don't have jobs right away for the candidates because they're really just trying to network around to find the best candidates and clients they can find. There's a process involved... candidates yield potential clients and candidates, who in turn can yield more potential clients and candidates. Recruiters don't actively search for specific positions. Instead, they network the client managers they're in contact with to see if there are any positions available. They then go through the pool of candidates they have to see if they match.

    That's pretty much the way the business HAS to be. They have to get the candidate in front of the client before the client puts the job up on Dice or Monster, or they're likely to lose out on the 20% markup.

    The key to working with recruiters is to only work with the guys who sound like aggressive superstars. They WILL call your references and attempt to network them because it's standard business practice, so protect your references and only give them out when you have a job waiting. The more polished they are on the phone, the more polished they are talking to the client, the more likely they're going to find openings for you.

    And hey, shit happens. Jobs fall through because of all sorts of problems. Sometimes the best clients can have issues.

    Bottom line is, don't go bitching about recruiters unless you're doing your own legwork on the side. When a recruiter finds you a job, you should look at it as a bonus, not an expectation.

    Ya know, I appreciate the POV of someone who has done the job, but I don't necessarily agree with you. From the perspective of a programmer who has dealt with recruiters numerous times in the last 8 years, here's why:

    1. Most of the "opportunities" that have come to me from recruiters, do so from people who have failed to read my résumé or job site profile. That is, either the opportunities are not in my target region, or the skills they want are not on my résumé (For example, if I wrote a Perl SOAP client that talked to a .NET SOAP service, you cannot conclude that I know .NET).
    2. The "aggressive superstar" recruiters I have dealt with have usually been willing to play fast and loose with the facts when representing me to a company. It may be a weakness, but I prefer to err on the side of telling people when I can't do a job, rather than representing myself as being an expert in something I'm not.
    3. Recruiters have a tendency to promise the world--and deliver little if anything. "I have a job you're a perfect fit for. They'll hire you next week!" (followed by a 6 month wait and unreturned follow-up calls).
    4. Recruiters tend not to update your contact info. I have one agency that I contacted 5 years ago. They didn't deliver at the time, but they keep pestering me to work in a town I never lived in (and don't want to) even though I've since left the state.
    5. Recruiters get pushy when they want something, but disappear completely when they don't.

    Am I jaded and cynical about being another slave in the recruiter's meat market? You bet! I use them because I have to, and I've met one or two who actually seemed to care beyond the fact that placing me got them a commission, but I don't have a very high opinion of the process.

  • PAG (unregistered)

    Wow, so much analysis over a litte funny web comic...

    He should have done it even more caricatural so people wouldn't think that this is reality...

    http://blogmiel.blogspot.com

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