• Belcat (unregistered)

    I can't believe Microsoft would let their product be called an abomination. They must have used a different title...

  • (cs)

    Please tell me this is a joke, since it's just not possible to be that "dumb"!? Have to feel sorry for the poor lad trying to implement that knd of app with access and VB... vb, vb. hmmm, when ever has vb been usfull!?

  • Matt (unregistered)

    What about the map? What about the MAP?

    "When are we going to get to the fireworks faaaaactoryyyyy?" :(

  • (cs)

    I don't suppose he did ever manage to actually integrate Access in to Encarta.

  • (cs)
    anon:
    am I missing half the article? did he get encarta integrated?

    I second this. I can almost understand working hard to straighten out the DB stuff but I would want to see a proof of concept of this 3D map thing first, even if all the data was hardcoded.

    Can't blame the student in this post, though. He was just in it for the experience and for something to put on his resume. If the company was actually stupid enough to think you could just snap Access and Encarta together then they deserve whatever fate they got.

    That said, does Encarta actually have an API that you can use?

  • (cs)

    This is a job for cool-caming!

    Finally after months of waiting, an appropriate WTF to use this line on. Now to see how many still remember the reference.

  • Crabs (unregistered) in reply to Outlaw Programmer
    Outlaw Programmer:
    That said, does Encarta actually have an API that you can use?

    In fact, it does. "encapi32.dll" in the system folder.

  • (cs)

    Globe... map...

    The guy should have created a new Google account for the company, with "My Maps" filled out with all the addresses of the competitors. After that, learn the Google API and make a more stand-alone program.

    Encarta and WoW are pretty far apart, timewise I thought. Maybe Encarta is still popular and I didn' know.

    This story feels unfinished, like the prelude to a great disaster, and at the end a Microsoft suit scolds him for not sticking with Access.

  • (cs)

    He won the bureaucratic battle and only lost a few weeks of work? There's no wtf here -- it's an unqualified success.

  • A Gould (unregistered)
    Rich:
    Shenanigans, no one would accept that job no matter how desperate for "experience" because they'd realise they weren't going to get the right experience there.

    No, he's getting the right "experience". Namely, the type that looks good on a resume - "assistant programmer".

    You need two things - "experience" and skills. Nobody cares if they came from different places.

  • (cs)

    I bet he got this job from RentACoder. "Write a system like Encarta, only 3-D. Maximum pay $200."

  • Nicolas V. (unregistered)

    Come on, recreating at least the SPs and views in SQL Server from Access does not require that much time. At least the data model exists and the programmer has a very good idea of what it looks like.

    I have been in a similar situation, forced to use something called "Webcatalog" until finally I got to use SQL Server once I was allowed to talk to the IT start and they backed me on that one (because, really, SQL Server experience looks better on a resume than Webcatalog experience).

    Now, how did he connect to Encarta is the question?!? I guess that was before the era of Google Maps.

  • MechanicJay (unregistered)

    "Yes, Troels thought, in the same way a Ford Aerostar's engine can be dropped into a Mustang."

    Actually, the Cologne family of V6 engines were used in both the Aerostar and the Mustang.

    Try again.

  • (cs)

    The second half of this seems basically irrelevant. Sure, we all hate Access, but working so hard to get the database switched when the meat of the project (the front end) is undefined and looks way beyond his skills (3d in Visual Basic?) seems like a waste.

  • NO no NO! (unregistered)

    I would love to know how did that software end up. Otherwise this article is just missing a half... Pitty.

  • Nicolas V. (unregistered) in reply to SneWs
    SneWs:
    Please tell me this is a joke, since it's just not possible to be that "dumb"!? Have to feel sorry for the poor lad trying to implement that knd of app with access and VB... vb, vb. hmmm, when ever has vb been usfull!?

    I have used VB6 a few times in the past, to distribute little database applications to clients. It worked fine but updating was a bit of a pain until I switched to full Web-based.

    Otherwise ever heard of VB7? I mean dot net...?

  • Nicolas V. (unregistered) in reply to axus
    axus:
    Globe... map...

    The guy should have created a new Google account for the company, with "My Maps" filled out with all the addresses of the competitors. After that, learn the Google API and make a more stand-alone program.

    Encarta and WoW are pretty far apart, timewise I thought. Maybe Encarta is still popular and I didn' know.

    This story feels unfinished, like the prelude to a great disaster, and at the end a Microsoft suit scolds him for not sticking with Access.

    Yes, but Google maps did not exist when Access and Encarta were popular. I guess the story took place quite a few years ago, probably during the dot com boom. Nowadays they'd ask for someone to hack Google Earth or Google Maps and indeed it's not too hard to do, since it is even documented by Google.

  • Confused (unregistered)

    I have to say, after reading this, I felt like I did after watching "Pirates of The Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest". "What, that's the end? You're kidding right?" At least I didn't waste 2.5 hours on this article.

  • (cs)
    Troy McClure:
    WTF is going on? You deleted my comment? I just speculated this story wreaks a little of bullshit and you delete it?

    WEAK

    yeah i noticed the comment deletion was a little heavy-handed on this one too. there used to be a lot more "this feels like half an article" comments, i'm sure of it..

  • TroelsL (unregistered)

    First of all, I'm surprised that this story made it. It's been quite a few months since I submitted it. Anyway, for those of you wondering about the last half of the project, let me explain. The original text submitted was long.. very long. Suffice to say that once I get started on this, I get rantish.

    So let me just bust a few myths..

    This is not BS, I still have the old Access database here to remind myself of never allowing myself to create such horrid workarounds again. (Interesting fact: the native string in Access VB has a max length of 512 characters.. One of the things I learned quickly)

    First of all, I didn't push MSSQL - I tried to push MySQL as I had worked with that a lot before. But that wasn't possible, I was told. Because everyone (in the strategic apex of the firm) knew Access, and no one knew MySQL, so they wouldn't know how to create reports in that. Being a rookie in a new job, I didn't want to push too hard, so I bowed to coporate pressure.

    The company's IT department was outsourced to a large, international TLA(Three letter acronym) company, and for reasons unknown insisted on using solely Microsoft software. Thus came the change to MSSQL, which the network admin agreed with me was a much better idea than Access - for a multiuser system with a above average requirement for security.

    I search near and far for a good map, after realising that Encarta didn't really have an API. My first thought was Google Maps, but the company didn't want to pay for it, so it was ruled out. We finally settled on (tada) Microsoft Live API, as a new head on the project found that the cost was negligible.

    I briefly considered having an Access front end, but at this point my initial humility was shrouded in annoyance, and I pushed for a change to PHP and Live Maps. The reports they needed were very limited, and it was a lot easier to just create all thinkable reports in PHP. They IT department eventually agreed on PHP after a series of questions in this line: "But doesn't PHP require Linux?" "Will PHP run on IIS?" "Are you sure IIS can run PHP scripts?"

    So everything seemed set: PHP + Live Maps + MSSQL. Simple as it should be. I had the first prototype of the front end up before long and was ready to deploy it to a server, having tested it locally on my laptop.

    So..

    -- insert overwhelming amount of profanity here --

    9 months later, and the server still not being online, they had found a computer that could run the web server (MSSQL already running on another server). In the end, I sit in a room with a guy paid 100 times my salary, and install Apache+PHP for them on a Windows Server 2000 machine. It took me 15 minutes, including moving the data to the server.

    Now, naturally, as a mere mortal, I can not myself upload anything to the server, so I email any changes to the network admin, who then extracts a zip file on top of the other files. (This being the guy who thought PHP was "a linux program"). Many a time, I've considered simply putting a PHP upload script into that zip file, and be done with it.

    Anyway, the project is still not completed, as decision making in this company requires 5 top level executives to sacrifice a virgin goat during the second stage of the equinox. I'm still in college, 6 months away from getting my degree. I wouldn't say that I regret taking the job, as they have good food and nice Christmas gifts. Sure, the pay is less than that of a McDonalds employee, and I have learned almost nothing about the technical aspect of software development - but a LOT about bureaucracy and why you should never hire an expensive external DBA when a only slightly trained monkey could do the same job for bananas.

    Now, I'm not positioning myself as a super programmer here, but I'm just glad to see that once I get a "real" job, the competition isn't always that steep. Which is also the reason I keep reading The Daily WTF.

    I hope I fielded most of the questions, otherwise just submit them using my Access based support ticket system. But please! One at a time!

    Oh, and a funny side fact: According to Microsofts own knowledge base, the way to protect a form from unauthorized entry is the following:

    Drag a fullscreen text field across all elements of the form. Have another text field for password entry. If the password is correct, hide the first text field. Of course, the user can still just hold shift as Access starts and completely bypass all "security" measures.

  • ComputerForumUserDoesntLikeSitesRequiringJSJustToLogIn (unregistered)
    Do you play World of Warcraft? Thats exactly what we want! Except with icons of our competitors' locations on a virtual globe, instead of monsters.

    Later, the executives were overheard asking for a company jet:

    "You know fish? They dont hit the rocks! Except 'brrrrrm', you know, in the sky. And made of brass."

  • (cs) in reply to KattMan
    KattMan:
    This is a job for cool-caming!

    Zooming in on the Map with a looping in between? Or diving down on competitors blowing them away with some weapon instead of just deleting them?

  • (cs) in reply to Nicolas V.
    Nicolas V.:
    Yes, but Google maps did not exist when Access and Encarta were popular. I guess the story took place quite a few years ago, probably during the dot com boom. Nowadays they'd ask for someone to hack Google Earth or Google Maps and indeed it's not too hard to do, since it is even documented by Google.

    This would be a comforting explanation if not for the fact that World of Warcraft came out in November 2004.

  • tekiegreg (unregistered)

    If I'm not mistaken, you can use MS Access as a shell for SQL Server, aka Same forms, reports, macros etc. But in reality it's SQL Server on the backend. Still wouldn't know why you'd want to do this with the much better MS Gui Tools out there such as .NET's stuff. Also I'm not sure how that works with multiple Access Shell apps open on SQL Server (aka locking, concurrency, etc). But I'm sure it can be done...

  • (cs)

    TRWTF is that somebody was using Encarta even after World of Warcraft has been out. I didn't know they even made Encarta anymore.

    /Quick, let me go update Wikipedia to say that they don't.

  • Patrick (unregistered)

    Was this Enron?

  • Patrick (unregistered)

    No, wait. This was Halliburton. They were making maps of what countries they want to rape, pillage an plunder next.

  • Rocco (unregistered) in reply to MechanicJay
    MechanicJay:
    "Yes, Troels thought, in the same way a Ford Aerostar's engine can be dropped into a Mustang."

    Actually, the Cologne family of V6 engines were used in both the Aerostar and the Mustang.

    Try again.

    Haha, that's the first thing that came to mind when I read this.

  • (cs) in reply to TroelsL
    TroelsL:
    First of all, I'm surprised that this story made it. It's been quite a few months since I submitted it. Anyway, for those of you wondering about the last half of the project,
    <snip> And I thought I was pedantic.
    TroelsL:
    and I have learned almost nothing about the technical aspect of software development
    Not true. You wrote something that (if IT and the PHBs weren't so obtuse) works (or will anyway). That already beats the curve out here in industry. And you had to use APIs and mash stuff together - thats the majority of what I do. I'd say that's the majority of IT; figuring out how to mash various things together so it *works* - or if it doesn't, won't delete the year's sales data.
    TroelsL:
    and why you should never hire an expensive external DBA when a only slightly trained monkey could do the same job for bananas.
    Seeing as my poorly paid crack team of monkeys wouldn't know an inner join if it bit them on the ass, I'd have to disagree with you there. Experienced (=~ /expensive/) DBAs are like nitrogen fertilizer on your lawn. Use a little and you get a wonderful result. Use too much and everything burns.
  • (cs) in reply to tezoatlipoca

    Now that the author posted a reply, The Real WTF is that this company is actually taking suggestions from the intern/new guy. I can understand them letting the author run the show on this toy project but it sounds like somehow this project has side effects that change their report generation (wtf?!). Most companies would have shut this guy down on the spot without even thinking about his suggestions, ESPECIALLY if it affects their precious reports!

    Also, I think the cool-cam comment was a little misplaced here. Seems like the project is in no danger of being canceled, and the cool 3D map is actually part of the spec and not just some awesome feature used to dazzle the executives.

  • TroelsL (unregistered)
    Seeing as my poorly paid crack team of monkeys wouldn't know an inner join if it bit them on the ass, I'd have to disagree with you there. Experienced (=~ /expensive/) DBAs are like nitrogen fertilizer on your lawn. Use a little and you get a wonderful result. Use too much and everything burns.

    Yes, but you're assuming they're qualified. This guy didn't know what roles were on MSSQL Server 2000. I'd never used MSSQL before, and I could configure it better than him. I got paid $20/hour, I'd estimate he got $300/hour. (All in round figures)

  • TroelsL (unregistered) in reply to Outlaw Programmer

    Nothing was a side effect. The system was completely seperate from anything else in the company. And the 3D feature was pretty much ignored, aside from the 3D feature in maps.live.com.

    Me running the shots came as a consequence of this not being an IT company, and almost the entire IT department being involved in a migration to SAS on their main systems.

  • doubter (unregistered) in reply to TroelsL
    TroelsL:

    Oh, and a funny side fact: According to Microsofts own knowledge base, the way to protect a form from unauthorized entry is the following:

    Drag a fullscreen text field across all elements of the form. Have another text field for password entry. If the password is correct, hide the first text field. Of course, the user can still just hold shift as Access starts and completely bypass all "security" measures.

    Do you have a link to this? I'd like to see it myself...

  • doubter (unregistered) in reply to TroelsL
    TroelsL:

    Oh, and a funny side fact: According to Microsofts own knowledge base, the way to protect a form from unauthorized entry is the following:

    Drag a fullscreen text field across all elements of the form. Have another text field for password entry. If the password is correct, hide the first text field. Of course, the user can still just hold shift as Access starts and completely bypass all "security" measures.

    Do you have a link to this? I'd like to see it myself...

  • (cs)
    but he figured, how hard could it be?
    Well, as it turns out: very!

    edit: A cookie for whoever knows the reference :p

  • iceman (unregistered) in reply to yet another Matt
    yet another Matt:
    I don't suppose he did ever manage to actually integrate Access in to Encarta.

    Plz send me the codes!

  • (cs) in reply to Quicksilver
    Quicksilver:
    KattMan:
    This is a job for cool-caming!

    Zooming in on the Map with a looping in between? Or diving down on competitors blowing them away with some weapon instead of just deleting them?

    Only to hit the ground and be bounced up into the ionosphere just before all of your weapons fell off.

  • Jonh Robo (unregistered)

    What a sweet job for a student!

  • Access Guru (unregistered) in reply to TroelsL

    It's amazing how little you know about Access.

  • Rob (unregistered)

    This article makes no sense. What about the 3D thing?

  • jayh (unregistered) in reply to TroelsL
    TroelsL:
    ...(Interesting fact: the native string in Access VB has a max length of 512 characters.. One of the things I learned quickly) .

    Not actually. VBA strings are 4MB just like VB in any version of Access that I've used (access 95+)

  • (cs) in reply to KattMan
    KattMan:
    This is a job for cool-caming!

    Finally after months of waiting, an appropriate WTF to use this line on. Now to see how many still remember the reference.

    And for those who don't remember: http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/The-Cool-Cam.aspx

  • Carra (unregistered)

    SQL Server licenses were too expensive, he was told.

    Wtf? What about MySql, PostgresSql,...

  • s. (unregistered) in reply to gabba
    gabba:
    He won the bureaucratic battle and only lost a few weeks of work? There's no wtf here -- it's an unqualified success.

    Actually, it's about the best tactic he could use.

    The part of binding the database with the map would be very hard, if not impossible to complete. You can assume some 80-90% chance of failure there.

    Writing the A.I. for decision-making, would be, well, just that, writing A.I. - a thing best minds have struggled against since Turing and earlier, and failed. Chance of failure: 100%.

    Upon failure you lose your job. What's the best strategy then? Well, keep doing what you won't fail at, and drag out the work for as long as possible. If your work is complete, the best course of action is to introduce such a change in the original plans to have it entirely discarded and start from scratch. New deadlines, new budget, new excuses, lots and lots of time till you need to start to worry about the "failure-likely" parts, and who knows, maybe by then the problems will solve themselves, say, by someone writing a very similar system and releasing it, or your project getting canned and you moved to something you're more likely to finish?

  • Anonymous (unregistered)

    Holy shit, Visual Basic. I thought you said he was in college, not elementary school.

  • Frank W. Zammetti (unregistered)

    Biggest WTF of this whole spiel:

    "Of course, the user can still just hold shift as Access starts and completely bypass all 'security' measures."

    The words "Access" and "Security" in the same sentence... at least, WITHOUT the words "lack thereof".

    CAPTCHA: Kiss my ass you stupid captcha whores!

  • Obi Wan (unregistered) in reply to doubter
    doubter:
    TroelsL:

    Oh, and a funny side fact: According to Microsofts own knowledge base, the way to protect a form from unauthorized entry is the following:

    Drag a fullscreen text field across all elements of the form. Have another text field for password entry. If the password is correct, hide the first text field. Of course, the user can still just hold shift as Access starts and completely bypass all "security" measures.

    Google: "ms access shift security site:Microsoft.com" yields (as 1st hit) http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=%2Fsupport%2Faccess%2Fcontent%2Fsecfaq.asp which, Ctrl+F to find "shift", gives link to http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=%2Fsupport%2Faccess%2Fcontent%2Fsecfaq.asp#_Toc493299696 which describes a way to "hide" this feature. :P Do you have a link to this? I'd like to see it myself...

  • Obi Wan (unregistered) in reply to Obi Wan

    (&^&%^*&^())&@$%^# meant to hit PREVIEW...sry about that.

    Google: "ms access shift security site:Microsoft.com" yields (as 1st hit): http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=%2Fsupport%2Faccess%2Fcontent%2Fsecfaq.asp which, using Ctrl+F to find "shift" in IE {GASP!], gives link to: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=%2Fsupport%2Faccess%2Fcontent%2Fsecfaq.asp#_Toc493299696 which describes a way to "hide" this feature. :P

    Sry, can't remember how to do links on this forum today...

  • (cs) in reply to tezoatlipoca
    tezoatlipoca:
    Experienced (=~ /expensive/) DBAs are like nitrogen fertilizer on your lawn. Use a little and you get a wonderful result. Use too much and everything burns.
    I spewed coffee all over my keyboard!! Thanks for the hearty laugh.
  • Marcos (unregistered) in reply to TroelsL
    TroelsL:
    ...snip... Oh, and a funny side fact: According to Microsofts own knowledge base, the way to protect a form from unauthorized entry is the following:

    Drag a fullscreen text field across all elements of the form. Have another text field for password entry. If the password is correct, hide the first text field. Of course, the user can still just hold shift as Access starts and completely bypass all "security" measures.

    Now THIS is the real WTF. That took some reading.

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