• dilligaf (unregistered) in reply to QJo
    QJo:
    I'm somewhat bewildered by this. Where I come from, an educational establishment provides its graduates with a certificate: a piece of hard-to-forge paper on which it is indicated that a person has successfully undertaken a course of study. Doesn't this procedure hold everywhere in the world?

    Too bad they didn't provide a reading comprehension course.

    Hint: the applicant did not graduate, and stated this to the HR acolyte.

  • (cs) in reply to eViLegion
    eViLegion:
    But what use is a non-existent certificate when you're trying to prove that you didn't complete a course?
    Quite a lot, by the looks of it.
  • The Big Picture Thinker (unregistered) in reply to F
    F:
    Advanced degree in nuclear engineering? Tenured professorship? Hah! Is that the best he can do?

    I don't have an honorary doctorate in theology, literature and interplanetary communication. (Of course, you'll have to take my word for it).

    I believe you. If you did have such a doctorate, you surely wouldn't have forgotten the Oxford comma in its title.

    CAPTCHA: commoveo -- Never forget the Oxford commoveo.

  • Dominic (unregistered)

    Moral: Absence of an affidavit is not an affidavit of absence.

  • instigator (unregistered) in reply to QJo
    QJo:
    But the point I was making is this. The accepted method of demonstrating that one has achieved a course of study is the simple and obvious one of presenting your certificates.
    Not at the companies where I've worked. No one has ever asked to see my diploma. They have asked for an official transcript; which, has to be sent from the School. The diploma doesn't have any real security feature on it. Even if it did, HR would not know to look for it, because there is no standard. Then again, I'm in the US, maybe other countries are different.
  • (cs)

    I always thought it would be an interesting venture to start a "University" that did nothing but verify documents from others. Then you could record the data as a record on the web site and HR droids could use it as an "authoritative" resource.

    Probably wouldn't fly, as it would defeat the need for HR droids to do any actual work.

    Next!

  • (cs) in reply to QJo
    QJo:
    ceiswyn:
    It's not as universal as you might think. The university I went to didn't graduate you automatically on completion of your course; you had to actually organise and book graduation on one of the available dates in order to get the shiny certificate (and until such time as you did you were technically a 'graduand').

    So there's the WTF. I have never bothered to attend a graduation ceremony (even more stupid a pointless waste of time than going to church) but have received my certificates in the mail. To insist that a course of study is somehow not complete without a ridiculous session of pointless pageantry suggests an inability to emerge from the middle-ages.

    My university requires that one apply to graduate. Given some of the course requirements for degrees, it could mess up people going for more than one degree if graduating were done automatically.

    As for the pageantry, it is optional, but it was great fun for me and others. If you do not like it, simply do not attend. I did not attend graduation for my computing diploma, but I did so for my degree.

    Sincerely,

    Gene Wirchenko

  • instigator (unregistered) in reply to xaade
    xaade:
    Kevin:
    Makes sense, doesn't it? I've also applied to places that ask for your transcript mailed to them directly from the university. Can't forge it if you never handled it.

    Forge it. Walk into the mail room. And put in the outbox.

    Mail room is public at a few places I've been to.

    At some point companies have to accept the risk in hiring someone. Rather get someone that appeals to honesty than someone with a beefed up resume.

    That would be fraud, a serious felony. Even if you didn't lie, your misrepresenting the source.

    That said, the university could very likely send an official transcript, showing the courses he did complete. He could also have sent an official high school transcript. Despite the policy being inane, he gave up too quickly. He wouldn't be working for HR on a day to day basis. Sounds like he was already financially set, but for anyone else, this article is bad advice.

  • C-Derb (unregistered) in reply to mrfr0g
    mrfr0g:
    I usually see something similar in my profession. Companies somehow want an expert in: PHP, ASP, ASP.NET, Ruby, Java, Perl and Python. Oh and don't forget Javascript, and CSS. It's like they find all of the current, "popular" languages and throw them up on a jobs board.
    Or worse, they will get a copy of the resume from the guy that is leaving, and who was with the company for 12 years. He worked on various projects: COBOL rewrite to VB.NET, Microsoft Dynamics implementation, a one-off project with MySQL and PHP, and one time he troubleshot the copier/printer.

    So now they post the job opening looking for someone with 12+ years of COBOL, VB.NET, MySQL, PHP, Microsoft Dynamics, copier hardware experience and whatever else the guy who left might have done at some point.

    There's only one candidate that fits that criteria, and he just left. Meh, post the requirements and let's see what we get.

  • (cs)
    This is to certify that Dave D. has no completed college education and no college degree.

    Notarized

    ...and then sent to the president of the company, under cover, with a request for hand delivery to the HR person.

    Just, of course, to see if it passes the president's laugh test.

  • katastrofa (unregistered) in reply to C-Derb
    C-Derb:
    katastrofa:
    Peter:
    In my experience, HR is often populated by earnest (and often quite attractive) young things with liberal arts degrees from expensive universities.

    They only deal with hiring. Those in charge of firing people are quite shrewd and professional.

    Captcha: causa - fired for a cause?

    Interesting concept right there. If the shrewd and professional HR people did a little more work in the hiring phase, they wouldn't be needed for the firing phase.

    In all companies I worked for, HR had very little to say about WHO gets hired. They control HOW. Same thing about firing, just that for firing, HOW becomes much more important than for hiring (because the people getting fired may take advantage of every misstep to contest the firing).

  • Andrew (unregistered) in reply to QJo
    QJo:
    ceiswyn:
    It's not as universal as you might think. The university I went to didn't graduate you automatically on completion of your course; you had to actually organise and book graduation on one of the available dates in order to get the shiny certificate (and until such time as you did you were technically a 'graduand').
    So there's the WTF. I have never bothered to attend a graduation ceremony (even more stupid a pointless waste of time than going to church) but have received my certificates in the mail. To insist that a course of study is somehow not complete without a ridiculous session of pointless pageantry suggests an inability to emerge from the middle-ages.
    I have never participated in a graduation ceremony that was required (both high school and college) or where diplomas were handed out during the ceremony. They basically handed out colored pieces of cardboard on a stage. The actual diplomas were mailed before or handed out after. I enjoyed both sessions of "pointless pageantry", and it seemed like everyone else there did, too.

    As a side point, I have two college diplomas for my one degree. One of them says I graduated in "Septmember"; it's the one I have framed at work.

  • Chelloveck (unregistered) in reply to Andrew
    Andrew:
    As a side point, I have two college diplomas for my one degree. One of them says I graduated in "Septmember"; it's the one I have framed at work.

    You're lucky. I graduated in Smarch. Lousy Smarch weather...

  • Canuck (unregistered) in reply to It's Pat

    That's actually a test. They don't want to hire anyone stupid enough to apply.

  • John (unregistered) in reply to Gene Wirchenko
    Gene Wirchenko:
    My university requires that one apply to graduate. Given some of the course requirements for degrees, it could mess up people going for more than one degree if graduating were done automatically.

    As for the pageantry, it is optional, but it was great fun for me and others. If you do not like it, simply do not attend. I did not attend graduation for my computing diploma, but I did so for my degree.

    Sincerely,

    Gene Wirchenko

    That's my recollection as well. I had to have one last meeting with my faculty adviser we filled out some perfunctory paperwork that said what degrees I was claiming to have met the requirements and then she had to take that to the math and computer science faculty meeting at some point and they had to reach some agreement that conferring a degree upon would not bring shame to the institution and then submit everything to the College president for signature. The degree ( if granted ) was mailed to you, with some again perfunctory security features, a simple embossed seal on some unusual but probably obtainable paper product. Attending the graduation ceremony was optional. Actually I think you were permitted to attend even if you just stated you planned on graduating the following semester; they only had grad ceremonies in summer, so if you graduated after fall semester you either did not attend or attended early; or I guess if you local you could attend the summer ceremony after your graduation year.

  • Sam (unregistered) in reply to eViLegion

    I had a similar experience with our local court system. I am a dirty foreigner living in the US. I got summoned for jury service (because they use the drivers license database as an information source). I wrote back explaining that I wasn't a US citizen, so wasn't allowed to serve on a jury, and they asked me for proof.

    They accepted a copy of my foreign passport, which of course doesn't prove anything either way about my US citizenship - it just proves that I am a citizen of $FOREIGN_COUNTRY

  • Sam (unregistered) in reply to instigator
    Then again, I'm in the US, maybe other countries are different.

    Yes, indeed. Other countries don't necessarily have anything called an "official transcript" at all.

  • fpgaguy (unregistered) in reply to cscastle

    Obviously he has not encountered this before.

    The correct method to handle this is to ask Regina to draft the letter for him to request the correct information from where ever she wishes to ask from.

    Still, running is a good choice, and should not be avoided after completing the above

  • Cheong (unregistered) in reply to maxh
    maxh:
    Well, he's not claiming that he doesn't have any qualifications; presumably he has a high school diploma. He could, therefore, get an affidavit from his high school.
    When he is 45, he may not be able to get the school diploma because his high school may not exist anymore.

    I'm just 30+ but my kindergarden and primary school has ceased to exist because of government policy.

  • (cs) in reply to Cheong
    Cheong:
    maxh:
    Well, he's not claiming that he doesn't have any qualifications; presumably he has a high school diploma. He could, therefore, get an affidavit from his high school.
    When he is 45, he may not be able to get the school diploma because his high school may not exist anymore.

    I'm just 30+ but my kindergarden and primary school has ceased to exist because of government policy.

    Yes, I can see the problem. My high school burned down in a mysterious fire the day after I was expelled. Strange coincidence, that.

  • (cs) in reply to Matt Westwood
    Matt Westwood:
    Cheong:
    maxh:
    Well, he's not claiming that he doesn't have any qualifications; presumably he has a high school diploma. He could, therefore, get an affidavit from his high school.
    When he is 45, he may not be able to get the school diploma because his high school may not exist anymore.

    I'm just 30+ but my kindergarden and primary school has ceased to exist because of government policy.

    Yes, I can see the problem. My high school burned down in a mysterious fire the day after I was expelled. Strange coincidence, that.
    Don't have that with the schools, but (1) first place I ever worked (volunteer job in a hospital) the building itself is no longer there, (2) first place I worked for pay (other than work-study in college) was at a K-Mart in a town where there now is no K-Mart, (3) first company I worked for after college no longer exists, (4) first address I worked at for my last employer the building is now a vacant lot, and (5) all my supervisors at my last job were laid off the same time I was and I have no idea how to get in touch with any of them for references.

  • d (unregistered) in reply to Dogsworth
    Dogsworth:
    There must be a WTF in the business logic of the HR's brain.
    Don't try debugging it,they just scream and run when you try to plug a JTAG cable into them.
  • (cs) in reply to Sam
    Sam:
    They accepted a copy of my foreign passport, which of course doesn't prove anything either way about my US citizenship - it just proves that I am a citizen of $FOREIGN_COUNTRY
    This is better than the American hotel that refused my passport as ID when I wanted to get a room there.
  • CCCCC (unregistered)

    "I certify that I am thoroughly uneducated and hold no degrees." --signed, xxxx Witnessed by blah,blah,blah.

    It sounds like that would qualify him completely, based on the roundabout 'logic' used in his interview...

  • (cs) in reply to instigator
    instigator:
    The diploma doesn't have any real security feature on it. Even if it did, HR would not know to look for it, because there is no standard. Then again, I'm in the US, maybe other countries are different.
    Just to throw this in as a point of interest, at least one Peruvian university issues its diplomas printed on fairly thick plastic. (I happen to know this because the previous resident of my flat left his behind when he moved out).
  • (cs)

    the biggest WTF experience I've had was trying to get a job in Europe. The interview was going okay and my shoddy local language skills were holding up until the HR drone dropped the bombshell.

    'Sorry... we need someone who speaks English.' 'Uh.. what? I'm English.' 'Well we only class people as an English speaker if they have a level B2 or above from one of the following institutions' 'But you seem happy enough with my degree, earned in English at an English university?' 'Sorry - that's how it is. Get certified by one of these bodies and come back.'

    So I went away and checked. Every last one of them was issuing English as a second language certificates and rule #1 for enrolling in any of the courses and exams was that you were barred if English is your mother tongue.

    3 or 4 times I've had this happen so far...

  • (cs) in reply to blatant_mcfakename
    blatant_mcfakename:
    ...rule #1 for enrolling in any of the courses and exams was that you were barred if English is your mother tongue.

    Just this weekend a Spanish friend of mine was explaining to me how he once went to the UK to learn English and had the complementary experience: he found that no school (i.e. private intensive language school) would accept him because... he couldn't speak any English.

  • bingo was his name (unregistered) in reply to JAPH
    JAPH:
    In 2000 I saw a job asking for 10 years of Java experience.

    I can just picture Naughton, Sheridan or Gosling coming in for an interview and the HR drone saying "nuh-uh, sorry, you only have about 9 years, we're looking for 10".

  • Mr. Bob (unregistered) in reply to C-Derb
    C-Derb:
    katastrofa:
    Peter:
    In my experience, HR is often populated by earnest (and often quite attractive) young things with liberal arts degrees from expensive universities.

    They only deal with hiring. Those in charge of firing people are quite shrewd and professional.

    Captcha: causa - fired for a cause?

    Interesting concept right there. If the shrewd and professional HR people did a little more work in the hiring phase, they wouldn't be needed for the firing phase.

    No one sues because they were hired.

  • Left Blank (unregistered) in reply to instigator
    instigator:
    QJo:
    But the point I was making is this. The accepted method of demonstrating that one has achieved a course of study is the simple and obvious one of presenting your certificates.
    Not at the companies where I've worked. No one has ever asked to see my diploma. They have asked for an official transcript; which, has to be sent from the School. The diploma doesn't have any real security feature on it. Even if it did, HR would not know to look for it, because there is no standard. Then again, I'm in the US, maybe other countries are different.

    For the companies that I've worked at, it's called a 'background check'. And they farm out the actual check to companies that specialize in checking your background. So I've never had to present anything to anyone.

  • DonTheGeek (unregistered)

    At my current company we not only have to provide transcripts for every post secondary school we attended, we also have to justify why we should be hired if our undergrad GPA is less than 3.5. Doesn't matter if you have 25 years experience and a Masters degree, what was your GPA 20 years ago? This is what happens when bean counters and HR take over for people with real brains.

  • Ivan Godard (unregistered)

    I was refused a position at a major state university for lack of a Phud. The position was to teach a subject I invented.

  • (cs)

    Sounds like he must have been interviewing with Yahoo.

    It wasn't that long ago that Scott Thompson lied in his bio about having a bachelor's degree in comp sci and was caught out.

  • (cs) in reply to Ivan Godard
    Ivan Godard:
    I was refused a position at a major state university for lack of a Phud. The position was to teach a subject I invented.

    And this, my friends, is why Education (big E) is a fail compared to actual work experience.

  • Anon (unregistered) in reply to instigator
    instigator:
    xaade:
    Kevin:
    Makes sense, doesn't it? I've also applied to places that ask for your transcript mailed to them directly from the university. Can't forge it if you never handled it.

    Forge it. Walk into the mail room. And put in the outbox.

    Mail room is public at a few places I've been to.

    At some point companies have to accept the risk in hiring someone. Rather get someone that appeals to honesty than someone with a beefed up resume.

    That would be fraud, a serious felony. Even if you didn't lie, your misrepresenting the source.

    That said, the university could very likely send an official transcript, showing the courses he did complete. He could also have sent an official high school transcript. Despite the policy being inane, he gave up too quickly. He wouldn't be working for HR on a day to day basis. Sounds like he was already financially set, but for anyone else, this article is bad advice.

    This article is fantastic advice for literally EVERYONE. Companies won't stop making incredibly stupid demands until the entire workforce starts refusing to fulfil them.

  • Boot (unregistered) in reply to Peter
    Peter:
    Captcha: erat // sum es sunt eram erat eramus

    Ceaser ad sum iam forte. Brutus aderat. etc. etc.

  • Worf (unregistered) in reply to Sam
    Sam:
    They accepted a copy of my foreign passport, which of course doesn't prove anything either way about my US citizenship - it just proves that I am a citizen of $FOREIGN_COUNTRY

    Perhaps they know $FOREIGN_COUNTRY doesn't allow dual citizenships. Unlike the US which allows it (and very few other countries do). Usually if you get citizenship in another country you renounce your original citizenship.

    So for many countries, getting US citizenship automatically cancels citizenship in the country (even though the US allows dual citizenships, the other country does not recognize it).

  • (cs) in reply to Worf
    Worf:
    Perhaps they know $FOREIGN_COUNTRY doesn't allow dual citizenships. Unlike the US which allows it (and very few other countries do). Usually if you get citizenship in another country you renounce your original citizenship.

    So for many countries, getting US citizenship automatically cancels citizenship in the country (even though the US allows dual citizenships, the other country does not recognize it).

    Yes and no. Usually if you acquire US citizenship you are required to swear an oath renouncing all other allegiance, so in that sense the US isn't as dual-citizenship-friendly as you imply. On the other hand, not all countries recognise that oath as a formal renunciation of citizenship...

  • otherkindofnerd (unregistered) in reply to Peter
    Peter:
    Captcha: erat // sum es sunt eram erat eramus

    For future use, you might want eram eras erat eramus eratis erant Or perhaps sum es est eram eras erat

    Why, yes, I do have a degree in Latin. Ah, ok, well, if you give me a sec, I'll just go get my affidavit to show you, sure... Did I tell you what affidavit means.... That doesn't matter? OK...

  • Edmund (unregistered) in reply to ceiswyn
    ceiswyn:
    (And for anyone commenting about how that sounds like it comes from the middle ages... yes, yes it does. Along with the oath not to bring into the Library or kindle therein any fire or flame. The point is, however, that there may well be very well qualified people kicking around who, for various reasons, don't have an official certificate to prove it.)

    That sounds familiar, although in my case taking the oath was somewhat unnecessary as I never actually entered that library again. I didn't bother attending a ceremony either, however some years later I found employers were increasingly using background checking companies and these drones were much happier with certificates and transcripts. Happily I found my alma mater was perfectly willing to provide missing certificates for a reasonable fee. Worth investigating if it saves you hassle.

  • John (unregistered) in reply to ceiswyn
    ceiswyn:
    (And for anyone commenting about how that sounds like it comes from the middle ages... yes, yes it does. Along with the oath not to bring into the Library or kindle therein any fire or flame. The point is, however, that there may well be very well qualified people kicking around who, for various reasons, don't have an official certificate to prove it.)

    So now we know exactly which university it was too. You should try doing the graduating thing - it's quite fun, especially if you take your BA and MA at the same time, because it means coming into the Sheldonian Theatre three times, each time in a different gown. Out the door, round the back, porter swaps the gown for you and in you go again - like doing Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs with too few small thespians.

  • trtrwtf (unregistered) in reply to John
    John:
    like doing Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs with too few small thespians.

    Really, can you ever have enough small thespians?

  • Barfo Rama (unregistered) in reply to QJo

    Many private colleges have gone out of business or been carelessly merged into other colleges. Sometimes both (ie, scooping up the assets of a bankrupt college).

    I have sealed transcripts in my vault I bought when I graduated 35 years ago. I think I had to use 1 in the 90's, I'm not sure anymore. But I've also had to provide a copy of my Oracle OCP lol.

    capthca: erat Yep, I'm one of those.

  • Barfo Rama (unregistered) in reply to Gurth
    Gurth:
    Sam:
    They accepted a copy of my foreign passport, which of course doesn't prove anything either way about my US citizenship - it just proves that I am a citizen of $FOREIGN_COUNTRY
    This is better than the American hotel that refused my passport as ID when I wanted to get a room there.

    Shirley, you've seen unicorn passport

    captcha: amet an american turkey

  • (cs)

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  • gnasher729 (unregistered) in reply to Ivan Godard
    Ivan Godard:
    I was refused a position at a major state university for lack of a Phud. The position was to teach a subject I invented.

    Donald Knuth doesn't have a degree in Computer Science, so you shouldn't trust him in anything related to computers. (He does, however, have a degree in mathematics).

  • iiiii (unregistered) in reply to pjt33

    My school issues diplomas on a sheet of thin silver. They're a bitch to photocopy.

  • JenK (unregistered) in reply to It's Pat

    5 years of experience with Windows 2000. Job posted in 2001.

    That's...actually possible. In Redmond. If you count "worked on Windows 2000" as "experience with Windows 2000."

  • (cs) in reply to cscastle
    cscastle:
    My best friend, bored to tears with high school, left after her junior year to enroll at the local college. The college admitted her on probation, and she completed her first year with honors. She then transferred to a much larger university. The fully-accredited university accepted her as a regular student, never questioning the lack of a high-school diploma. She graduated with a bachelor's degree in mathematics in 1984.

    Fast-forward about 25 years, to when my friend decided to take some computer classes at a for-profit vocational school. The vocational school refused to accept her as a student--because she didn't have a high-school diploma! The four-year college degree wouldn't suffice; by gum, V******a College doesn't make exceptions for anyone. She would just have to earn a GED if she wanted to attend their institution.

    Maybe they didn't care for her Cavalier attitude.

  • (cs) in reply to Hatshepsut
    Hatshepsut:
    blatant_mcfakename:
    ...rule #1 for enrolling in any of the courses and exams was that you were barred if English is your mother tongue.

    Just this weekend a Spanish friend of mine was explaining to me how he once went to the UK to learn English and had the complementary experience: he found that no school (i.e. private intensive language school) would accept him because... he couldn't speak any English.

    You don't learn "English", you learn "ESL." They're different classes!

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