The Daily WTF: Curious Perversions in Information Technology

2013-03-18 Reply Admin

The real WTF is working for a client for four months straight and not getting paid.

2013-03-18 Reply Admin

jay:
skotl:
ZoomST:
chris:
Ash:
Comments don't work
Why can't I edit this comment??!!
The right way is: print it out, edit with a pencil, put on a wooden table, shot a photo, and send it back.

No, no, no. Don't you understand how web 2.0 works? Print it out, edit with a pencil, scan it in, find the "upload" button, upload the scan. Job done.

Scan it in? You mean hold it up to the screen and press the enter key?

I want to have a video conference about this scanning edits thing.

da Doctah · 2013-03-18 Reply Admin

Zylon:
The moral of this story is: Don't work for anyone who watches Fox News.

That almost makes up for the OP irrelevantly bringing up Comic Sans to bash it.

2013-03-18 Reply Admin

I wonder if other professions wrestle with this problem. Like, do people go to a home building contractor and say, "I want a house with two bedrooms, a kitchen, a living room, and a laundry room", and then after construction is half done go visit the site and say, "But where is the room for my home office? Of course I need a home office, I told you that I work from home all the time. Oh, and I was just thinking, could you add a basement? I really want a basement. And how come the walls are all nailed down like that? I saw a house once where the walls were movable so you could resize the rooms. I thought that was a cool idea. Didn't you do that?" Etc.

2013-03-18 Reply Admin

Cast not your Rubies and Pearls before clients.

2013-03-18 Reply Admin

_darkstar_:
The real WTF is working for a client for four months straight and not getting paid.

I am not familiar with how consulting organizations work.

2013-03-18 Reply Admin

I've worked with several contractors, and that's their bread and butter. They come in with a lowball bid. Clients ALWAYS want more things as construction progresses, and this is where contractors get paid. $150 extra to paint this room in stripes instead of one color? Sure we can do that! Oh you want cove lighting instead of a down lights - that will be an extra $250. Those extras add up real quick!

2013-03-18 Reply Admin

jay:
I wonder if other professions wrestle with this problem. Like, do people go to a home building contractor and say, "I want a house with two bedrooms, a kitchen, a living room, and a laundry room", and then after construction is half done go visit the site and say, "But where is the room for my home office? Of course I need a home office, I told you that I work from home all the time. Oh, and I was just thinking, could you add a basement? I really want a basement. And how come the walls are all nailed down like that? I saw a house once where the walls were movable so you could resize the rooms. I thought that was a cool idea. Didn't you do that?" Etc.

Yes, they do. I once (before I began hammering bits) worked in construction and got paid three times for a closet that didn't remain built.

The wife came in and say "I don't want that closet - remove it". We'd tell her how much it cost since it was in the original blueprints and already built. She OK'd the cost and we removed it.

Then the husband came in and wanted the closet back in. He OK'd the cost and paid to add the closet back.

Then the wife came back with the husband... and they paid us to take it back out again.

The whole job was like this; the husband finally told us that the wife had control and he stopped coming to the job site.

I think she added an additional 10% or more the final cost of the home when all was said and done.

Conversations with the Architect indicated that the prints we built the house from went through 7+ iterations before we saw them... and she still wanted changes once construction was underway (usually after the work was done).

Our contract stipulated that any work requested was priced based upon what was altready done versus what the prints specified. If the work, or anything preliminary to it, was already done, they had to pay to change it. Otherwise it was a write-in and inital on the prints. Good thing we had it, too, or we wouldn't have made any money on the job.

2013-03-18 Reply Admin

Bob:
I've worked with several contractors, and that's their bread and butter. They come in with a lowball bid. Clients ALWAYS want more things as construction progresses, and this is where contractors get paid. $150 extra to paint this room in stripes instead of one color? Sure we can do that! Oh you want cove lighting instead of a down lights - that will be an extra $250. Those extras add up real quick!

Sounds like the carpet cleaning service I hired to do my house.

2013-03-18 Reply Admin

Steve The Cynic:
...Dick pulled his trusty GAU-8 out of his back pocket,[1] and used it to slaughter Jane and lay waste to the interior of the joint...

Come join us over at /r/hoggit; you'll fit right in.

2013-03-18 Reply Admin

RakerF1:
jay:
I wonder if other professions wrestle with this problem. Like, do people go to a home building contractor and say, "I want a house with two bedrooms, a kitchen, a living room, and a laundry room", and then after construction is half done go visit the site and say, "But where is the room for my home office? Of course I need a home office, I told you that I work from home all the time. Oh, and I was just thinking, could you add a basement? I really want a basement. And how come the walls are all nailed down like that? I saw a house once where the walls were movable so you could resize the rooms. I thought that was a cool idea. Didn't you do that?" Etc.

Yes, they do. I once (before I began hammering bits) worked in construction and got paid three times for a closet that didn't remain built.

The wife came in and say "I don't want that closet - remove it". We'd tell her how much it cost since it was in the original blueprints and already built. She OK'd the cost and we removed it.

Then the husband came in and wanted the closet back in. He OK'd the cost and paid to add the closet back.

Then the wife came back with the husband... and they paid us to take it back out again.

The whole job was like this; the husband finally told us that the wife had control and he stopped coming to the job site.

I think she added an additional 10% or more the final cost of the home when all was said and done.

Conversations with the Architect indicated that the prints we built the house from went through 7+ iterations before we saw them... and she still wanted changes once construction was underway (usually after the work was done).

Our contract stipulated that any work requested was priced based upon what was altready done versus what the prints specified. If the work, or anything preliminary to it, was already done, they had to pay to change it. Otherwise it was a write-in and inital on the prints. Good thing we had it, too, or we wouldn't have made any money on the job.

The difference here is that in the end, you got paid.

Also, it doesn't sound like they were under the assumption that you should remove or add the closet for free. Or that you would automatically know what they wanted. The way I've always looked at it, indecisive is fine -- great actually -- as long as they're willing to pay for it.

2013-03-18 Reply Admin

A stupid and rude human being who has no clue about computers is not a 'curious perversion in information technology'. Please separate the wheaf from the chaff before posting these stories. They are probably good enough for people who like to post 'frist', but not for adults who want IT related entertainment.

This person would have made the same mess of her contract in advertising, cosmetics, and any other field. This is. Not. About. Information. Technology. But. About. A. Silly. Woman.

2013-03-18 Reply Admin

[quote user="urza9814 The difference here is that in the end, you got paid.

Also, it doesn't sound like they were under the assumption that you should remove or add the closet for free. Or that you would automatically know what they wanted. The way I've always looked at it, indecisive is fine -- great actually -- as long as they're willing to pay for it.[/quote]

The reason we had that stiupulation in the contract, in the first place, was because of the times we'd been burned by not having the clause. Just like Dick.

We also made sure we pointed the clause out to the client several times during negotiations -- and every time they asked for a change. Unlike Dick.

We also did regular 'draws' against the contract amount based upon milestones of completion. Also unlike Dick.

Seahen · 2013-03-18 Reply Admin

See Jane.

See Jane pound the table.

Hear Jane yell at Dick.

Run, Dick, run.

2013-03-18 Reply Admin

RakerF1:
jay:
I wonder if other professions wrestle with this problem. Like, do people go to a home building contractor and say, "I want a house with two bedrooms, a kitchen, a living room, and a laundry room", and then after construction is half done go visit the site and say, "But where is the room for my home office? Of course I need a home office, I told you that I work from home all the time. Oh, and I was just thinking, could you add a basement? I really want a basement. And how come the walls are all nailed down like that? I saw a house once where the walls were movable so you could resize the rooms. I thought that was a cool idea. Didn't you do that?" Etc.

Yes, they do. I once (before I began hammering bits) worked in construction and got paid three times for a closet that didn't remain built.

The wife came in and say "I don't want that closet - remove it". We'd tell her how much it cost since it was in the original blueprints and already built. She OK'd the cost and we removed it.

Then the husband came in and wanted the closet back in. He OK'd the cost and paid to add the closet back.

Then the wife came back with the husband... and they paid us to take it back out again.

The whole job was like this; the husband finally told us that the wife had control and he stopped coming to the job site.

I think she added an additional 10% or more the final cost of the home when all was said and done.

Conversations with the Architect indicated that the prints we built the house from went through 7+ iterations before we saw them... and she still wanted changes once construction was underway (usually after the work was done).

Our contract stipulated that any work requested was priced based upon what was altready done versus what the prints specified. If the work, or anything preliminary to it, was already done, they had to pay to change it. Otherwise it was a write-in and inital on the prints. Good thing we had it, too, or we wouldn't have made any money on the job.

The reverse of this happened to us.

We wanted to order glass to frame a picture. We clearly stated this was for framing a picture. We asked for museum styled glass and they didn't have it. They did have some double sided glass that was shatter and glare resistant.

We asked for that and paid a very premium price.

We get the glass and there's a stamp in the corner. We called them back and the stamp was required by law to declare the glass was shatter resistant. It was printed inbetween the glass layers and couldn't be removed. They wouldn't even cut the glass because that was against the law.

Asking for a refund was a no deal, because they claimed they couldn't reuse the glass because of the odd dimensions. (Because it was for a picture....).

In the end we painted over it with a picture friendly "stamp" of our own.

So, can we fault the "engineers" for not anticipating a design requirement for hanging a picture; that is, to not sell us glasses with stamps on it, because we're hanging a picture.

There's some share in responsibility between seller/buyer when communicating requirements. Specifications that the buyer most likely wouldn't know needs to be discussed. Communication is a 2-way street.

Tukaro · 2013-03-18 Reply Admin

I would have thanked her for her time, taken my drink, and walked away when I hit "Rubies and Pearls".

It's not bad to have a client that knows nothing about the tech, so long as A) They have a unique idea or a unique way to drive an existing idea (and certainly not something starting with "like Khan Academy"), and B) They know that they don't know, and they accept that you will dictate the tech because they don't know.

But when someone comes in with a bunch of useless buzzwords and thinks they have a multi-million dollar idea, that's plain trouble.

2013-03-18 Reply Admin

The guy delivered a set of downloadable zip files. Somehow I'm doubting his competence.

2013-03-18 Reply Admin

The difference between us programmers and construction workers is the physical product. Some people think we're wizards of the digital world who wave our wands at the screen and produce the product. Most people don't think construction workers wave wands at the lot and produce a house. The key is to educate the client to the unfamiliar digital world, and to convince them that requirements are as solid as blueprints.

chubertdev · 2013-03-18 Reply Admin

Tukaro:
A) They have a unique idea or a unique way to drive an existing idea (and certainly not something starting with "like Khan Academy"), and

Every client will swear that this is the case.

Callin · 2013-03-18 Reply Admin

I'd love to hear the sequel. Litigation fun as told by Jane's lawyer.

2013-03-18 Reply Admin

WC:
I'm really sick of this blame-the-victim mentality.
Could he have avoided this mess? Sure.

Does he deserve the pain? No. He was clear in everything he did and it was all above-board. He did nothing unethical or immoral.

I'm sure he learned his lesson and he'll be much more cynical in the future. But he didn't deserve any of it.

I agree with you. The problem here is the context of the site -- It's a site about technology mishaps and bad programmers.

In this case, we're setting the context correct. Which is the WTF: The idiot for being an idiot, when they showed their idocy from the beginning... or the person who saw the idiot and thought "this will go just fine."?

When my daughter has an idea for an ice cream money machine, I don't say "good Idea honey!" and get angry at her when my scoop of ice cream with a dollar bill in it doesn't please her. Do I "deserve" for her to be upset? No, but I'd be an idiot if I made her really believe I really could make an ice cream money machine.

2013-03-18 Reply Admin

Also to be clear, my daughter isn't an idiot. She certainly knows more about "internet web technology" than Jane.

She's 7

2013-03-18 Reply Admin

anonymous:
ochrist:
I had very similar experience a couple of year back. A guy that knew some of my sisters' friends had recently taken over a small business. He now needed to get the website updated and wanted to hire somebody to help him out. I was low on clients in that time so took the job. However, when he first received an invoice from me, he reacted the same way as Jane. Even though I had been very nice to him and worked the first day or two for free, he still thought it was too expensive (he even got a discount). He sort of changed between believing that I was doing a favour to him and thinking that he could pay me off with a cheap bottle of wine. I explained to him that this is what I do for a living, and i had actually been very nice to him. He wasn't really listening, so I had to 'fire' him. Obviously he didn't have any money, so I didn't get the rest of my money until after a couple of months (and after a few angry letters).

That's why when dealing with that kind of "contract", I clearly explain the budget conditions so nobody feels deceipted. I should do it for free ? My brother is a plumber and he doesn't expect doing work for friends against a bottle of wine, why should I ? In opposition, I make it clear when I do it for free that I will actually help for free but will do it on my free time.

When receiving strange emails for help, I also make it clear that there will be a consultency charge.

This depends. There's no one-size fits all rule. You generally should not waste a lot of unpaid time on clients that may not even give you business. You should give out enough "free time" for both your client and you to evaluate the relationship. You're a joke to me if you think I'm going to pay you for an hour of your time discussing the project and evaluating your ability to complete it. However, you should be compensated for anything more than an hour or so, or any following meetings.

Your plumber comparison is terrible. You're talking about repair work -- something is broken that you need to come diagnose. I doubt your brother charges people to put in bids on a contract job. What we do MOST of the time is a bid on job, not repair work.

2013-03-19 Reply Admin

Shatter-resistant glass can not be cut. This is not because it is illegal, but rather that shatter-resistance is done by heating and tempering the glass (after it has been sized) quickly so that the outer layer is in tension. This means that if the glass is cut, or begins to break, it breaks apart into glass particles instead of shards of glass.

It seems more likely that the specifics of what was needed and what was being supplied was not clearly understood by both parties.

Matt Westwood · 2013-03-19 Reply Admin

Valued Service:
RakerF1:
jay:
I wonder if other professions wrestle with this problem. Like, do people go to a home building contractor and say, "I want a house with two bedrooms, a kitchen, a living room, and a laundry room", and then after construction is half done go visit the site and say, "But where is the room for my home office? Of course I need a home office, I told you that I work from home all the time. Oh, and I was just thinking, could you add a basement? I really want a basement. And how come the walls are all nailed down like that? I saw a house once where the walls were movable so you could resize the rooms. I thought that was a cool idea. Didn't you do that?" Etc.

Yes, they do. I once (before I began hammering bits) worked in construction and got paid three times for a closet that didn't remain built.

The wife came in and say "I don't want that closet - remove it". We'd tell her how much it cost since it was in the original blueprints and already built. She OK'd the cost and we removed it.

Then the husband came in and wanted the closet back in. He OK'd the cost and paid to add the closet back.

Then the wife came back with the husband... and they paid us to take it back out again.

The whole job was like this; the husband finally told us that the wife had control and he stopped coming to the job site.

I think she added an additional 10% or more the final cost of the home when all was said and done.

Conversations with the Architect indicated that the prints we built the house from went through 7+ iterations before we saw them... and she still wanted changes once construction was underway (usually after the work was done).

Our contract stipulated that any work requested was priced based upon what was altready done versus what the prints specified. If the work, or anything preliminary to it, was already done, they had to pay to change it. Otherwise it was a write-in and inital on the prints. Good thing we had it, too, or we wouldn't have made any money on the job.

The reverse of this happened to us.

We wanted to order glass to frame a picture. We clearly stated this was for framing a picture. We asked for museum styled glass and they didn't have it. They did have some double sided glass that was shatter and glare resistant.

We asked for that and paid a very premium price.

We get the glass and there's a stamp in the corner. We called them back and the stamp was required by law to declare the glass was shatter resistant. It was printed inbetween the glass layers and couldn't be removed. They wouldn't even cut the glass because that was against the law.

Asking for a refund was a no deal, because they claimed they couldn't reuse the glass because of the odd dimensions. (Because it was for a picture....).

In the end we painted over it with a picture friendly "stamp" of our own.

So, can we fault the "engineers" for not anticipating a design requirement for hanging a picture; that is, to not sell us glasses with stamps on it, because we're hanging a picture.

There's some share in responsibility between seller/buyer when communicating requirements. Specifications that the buyer most likely wouldn't know needs to be discussed. Communication is a 2-way street.

Why didn't you just go somewhere else which did sell museum glass? I'm prepared to bet that this was not a life-or-death request. Patience is a virtue.

2013-03-19 Reply Admin

I've had the issue (hostage payments) too many times to count. The worst part of dealing with family - or close family friends for that matter - is things get weird at family meetings after the first lawsuit for non-payment..

2013-03-19 Reply Admin

So, essentially, you would be happy that a client specifies a dollhouse to be constructed, then halfway through the client asks when the mansion in Concord will be complete, because the dollhouse is to be housed in the mansion.

It's still the same thing right? Dollhouse/mansion; what's a few thousand square feet between friends!

Sigh.

2013-03-19 Reply Admin

This must be the only comment I ever make:
A stupid and rude human being who has no clue about computers is not a 'curious perversion in information technology'. Please separate the wheaf from the chaff before posting these stories. They are probably good enough for people who like to post 'frist', but not for adults who want IT related entertainment.
This person would have made the same mess of her contract in advertising, cosmetics, and any other field. This is. Not. About. Information. Technology. But. About. A. Silly. Woman.

You should insist on a refund.

2013-03-19 Reply Admin

Don:
So, essentially, you would be happy that a client specifies a dollhouse to be constructed, then halfway through the client asks when the mansion in Concord will be complete, because the dollhouse is to be housed in the mansion.
It's still the same thing right? Dollhouse/mansion; what's a few thousand square feet between friends!

Sigh.

This.

TRWTF is that there are so many people here saying that the problem was with Dick.

The way I read the story was that he did reach a common ground (and signed a contract) with Jane about what he was to deliver at the initial meeting, and the story says that he got Jane to extend the contract according to the changes she wanted.

I had a similar experience that made me decide that freelancing is not for me: I met a guy who already had a product that did what it had to do, but required some serious refactoring before it would be able to do what he wanted it to do next.

I went through the existing product and gave him a detailed quote of exactly what had to be done. I kept my quote modest, because if it went well it could open up doors to more freelancing opportunities.

He still ended up being unhappy that my price was too expensive and I had to walk away. I wondered about it afterwards: Another more experienced freelancer may have come along and given him exactly what he wanted at twice the price, or (more likely) a cheaper freelancer came along and we'll see the code featured on this site one day.

Captcha: This story is also a reason why I don't do business with friends and family. Relationships get very saepius when things go wrong.

2013-03-19 Reply Admin

Your Naem:
jay:
skotl:
ZoomST:
chris:
Ash:
Comments don't work
Why can't I edit this comment??!!
The right way is: print it out, edit with a pencil, put on a wooden table, shot a photo, and send it back.

No, no, no. Don't you understand how web 2.0 works? Print it out, edit with a pencil, scan it in, find the "upload" button, upload the scan. Job done.

Scan it in? You mean hold it up to the screen and press the enter key?
I want to have a video conference about this scanning edits thing.

I stand corrected. Didn't notice about the fancy web 2.0 thing, thanks skotl. So the right way is: print it out, edit with a pencil, scan it in, print it out again, re-type it using Comic Sans, print it out, put on a wooden table, shot a photo, and send it back using the upload button on the comment section. And film everything in VHS video so you can play it later in a TV in the video conference room. Right?

2013-03-19 Reply Admin

For those who want Dick to be the culprit... this is Freelance Fun! Just check Freelance Fun Sadness in action in clientsfromhell.net And yes, there is people out there that thinks you can do everything in the internet thingy from your shiny Mac, but you don't because you are a lazy moron. And is so easy because the computer does all the work! So you don't deserve a couple of bucks. After all, you were playing Medal of Duty IV or Warcraft Theft Assasin II most of the time, didn't you? You are a child in their eyes: so if you do something, you should have a few dollars for ice cream; and if you don't do what they expect... you are grounded from money, little smartypants! Sad but true, folks.

Cbuttius · 2013-03-19 Reply Admin

I don't need WYSIWYG as long as my app is WITIWIM ... what I typed is what I meant... or "don't auto-correct me.."

Also please don't hang on me to prevent me typing into a form whilst you are running ahead trying to predict what I am going to type next or loading something when I haven't finished typing yet.

2013-03-19 Reply Admin

This must be the only comment I ever make:
A stupid and rude human being who has no clue about computers is not a 'curious perversion in information technology'. Please separate the wheaf from the chaff before posting these stories. They are probably good enough for people who like to post 'frist', but not for adults who want IT related entertainment.
This person would have made the same mess of her contract in advertising, cosmetics, and any other field. This is. Not. About. Information. Technology. But. About. A. Silly. Woman.

I found this article good and very about IT and gotchas related to freelancing - what TF are you talking about? Gimme more of these, and quit posting stupid code samples of stupid coders - that's what I say.

2013-03-19 Reply Admin

The problem was Dick. He's clearly an amateur freelancing. Anybody in their right mind, after the second instance of scope creep (and most after the first), would have said "Change of scope, amend our agreement!" and/or written the contract with how scope issues would be handled spelled out.

The bigger problem, however, was Jane, for insisting that clairvoyance be part of the development lifecycle AND be free-of-charge (personally, I charge on the order of $100/hr extra for clairvoyance). And clearly, given that Jane finally did pay the grand sum of $1, Jane wasn't just a clueless harpy, but a cast-iron Grade-A bitch, as well.

2013-03-20 Reply Admin

COMIC SAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNSSSS!!!!!!!

2013-03-21 Reply Admin

Go to this URL and you'll be able to edit your comment :)

javascript:document.body.contentEditable='true';document.designMode='on';void 0;

2013-03-21 Reply Admin

Come on Dick, all they need is a programmer.

2013-03-21 Reply Admin

Half payment up front & a back door ftp login to take the site down if they don't pay.

2013-03-21 Reply Admin

This is why I, a visual artist, love working with programers. We both work in media that seem strange and magical to outsiders but are really just a lot of skull sweat and training. We both have to face people thinking that something is "a tiny change" or "just doesn't look right yet". And we both have to put up with idiots who think that a trained monkey can do our job.

CAPTCHA laoreet: A small, brightly colored South Asian bird.

2013-03-22 Reply Admin

ammoQ:
That's why you should never ever freelance for people who have no clue what they are into, may they be friends or relatives or whatever.

I'm about to do exactly that pro bono! Expecting lots of WTFery ahead.

2013-06-01 Reply Admin

check out a really good freelance job site called www.5spot.ca

Freelance Fun with Dick and Jane

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