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Admin
Yes -- they tend to make decent amounts of money. Those companies are looking for someone who doesn't know RoR but could learn it while working on the cheap.
Admin
Pretty much anyone at any given location in the US would assume that. You've obviously never been here.
Admin
We just went through one ourselves.
We're a relatively small company that has started growing rather rapidly. Due to reasons best left unsaid, the mid-level administrator left and we now had a vacant position. With the growth of the organization, the fact that the systems were never built to scale, and the lack of resources (people), we were quite anxious to fill this vacant position as quickly as possible.
A posting was put up with a short job description and a top-end salary range (up to $60k). After narrowing it down to about 5 candidates, I contacted each one to schedule interviews. 4 were reachable and got scheduled quickly, while the remaining 1 went in to the "no" pile because he never returned any calls.
One individual who really stuck out included a cover letter expressing his excitement over the position and even included a salary range of $40-$50k). His skill set was good, and we thought it would be a great fit.
After interviewing all 4 candidates, we decided to move forward with the $40-$50k candidate because he seemed like the best fit, and his salary expectations were in the right range. The only catch was that he had a minor criminal record. After the obligatory background search and other stuff, it turned out that he really didn't, but he was led to believe that something in his past made it on to his record. Of course, all of this drags out for 3 weeks, but we finally made him an offer of $50k with the promise that the position had top-end room to grow in to (salary-wise).
He turned down the position because he really wanted $58k and he washed his hands of the position. We (my boss and myself) were both left stammering amongst ourselves "but.. but.. you said your salary expectations were between $40k and $50k..."
Admin
Tangential remark: I've been on a number of interviews where I was rejected for what sounded to me like pretty trivial reasons. Like, I applied for one job where they asked me about many technologies -- Java, JSP, PHP, C++, SQL, etc -- and I knew everything they mentioned. I thought the interview went well. Then a couple of days later I got a call from the headhunter saying they had rejected me because my resume didn't mention Struts. Which I didn't know (and still don't), but they never even asked me about it. I can't help but wonder if they weren't really rejecting me for some other reason, like they just didn't like my personality or the way I dressed or they'd Googled me and found out something about my politics or religion or some such that they didn't like, but they didn't want to admit that.
Hey, just gave me an idea for a fun experiment: Get somebody who is clearly highly qualified to go on interviews. Give an email address on the resume that's obviously from a personal web site, like if his name is Fred Stover have an email of "[email protected]". Make the web site full of articles with Fred's by-line that espouse pointed religious or political views. See if he gets the job, and then check the logs to see if anybody from the interviewing companies checked the web site. Try it again with different views on the web site, like a few times as far left and a few times as far right. Try various levels of extremism. I'd be amused to see the results.
Admin
Electric wheel chair?
Admin
I went to school with someone that I suspect had Asperger's or some form of autism (he told a friend that he was autistic though didn't get into the details, obviously).
While I can't see him doing something as extreme as what the interviewee in the first story did, I could see him doing something similar.
Getting past disabilities or other disadvantages can be tough for employers. At my last job, I was asked to help conduct some interviews to fill a (very) low level developer position. I interviewed with a guy who didn't speak English as well as we would have liked but obviously knew his stuff. I wanted to hire him but the manager refused. We also interviewed another guy who was in a wheelchair and had some minor problem with his arms. His typing would have been slow (20 WPM) but again, he knew his stuff. I wanted to hire him as well but again, the manager said no.
We ended up hiring some guy straight out of the local, extremely popular university. He was adequate, I guess, but only because the position was so low. The other guys would have been far better but because this other guy was - shall we say - of the popular persuasion, he got the job.
In the long run, I'm glad we didn't hire the more intelligent guys because that position ended up getting removed and the new hire was laid off after only 6 months anyway.
Admin
I agree. My local news news definitly mentions the US dollar more frequently now than they did before.
Admin
Aside from the radically different syntax, I had no problems adapting to ColdFusion after only doing web devleopment in Perl and PHP. I wouldn't trust any company that blatantly lies in their job postings, but if you're a good developer, picking up a new language isn't going to be all that difficult.
Admin
Au contraire. You've obviously never been anywhere else.
Admin
See previous post. Dammit.
Admin
You laugh. That exact thing happened to me in college. A company that made VB6 apps for public schools to manage databases for student information advertised for part time help at $25.00/hr. I go to the interview, and I'm told I'll be paid $12.00/hr until I become full-time - I guess they assumed I would naturally want to continue with them after I graduated.
Stupid me takes the job anyway (it was my first ever real programming job, so I don't hate myself too much for it). Only to find out I'm lucky if I get paid at all - the company was having money problems. Have you ever answered the phone at work and talked to a collections agency demanding your boss fax over a check immediately?
And oh yeah, I'm the only programmer. This company, whose entire business was making software, was run by two people who didn't know the first thing about making software. So unless I, a lowly sophomore in college, who never had any experience making commercial-grade software, build this thing practically from the ground up (a previous contractor had made some basic screens before having the good sense to bolt), and make it shine so much that school systems around the nation line up around the block to buy it, I'm not going to get paid, ever.
The systems were a total WTF as well. They had a machine with VB6 installed, and it worked alright during the day, but every single night, misconfigured backup software or something reverts every source code and project file to the same state it was in when I first saw the code. So unless I back up the files to my personal laptop every day, none of my changes will ever stick.
I finally learned my lesson after about two months, and just stopped showing up. I don't remember if I even gave them a copy of my changes to the codebase.
Looking back, the only red flag I should have needed was during the interview when they said, "we've hired a lot of programmers, and they've all left us feeling burned." Maybe if you can't get along with the entire class of people necessary to make your business work, you're in the wrong business.
Admin
I know exactly what you mean. I had an interview loop at a large web-based company once, for a test automation position. The interviews all went really well, I thought. I was straight with them about my level of web development experience (pretty low at the time), but they assured me that it wasn't a problem because they were looking for someone that could grow into the position. I spent several hours in interviews, after which they thanked me and told me I'd likely be hearing from them soon.
So I get a call the next day from the recruiter, who tells me they've decided not to move forward. When I ask if there was any particular reason, she says "some of the interviewers didn't feel like you were excited enough about the job." Huh?
Admin
ADD != ADHD
Admin
Admin
I don't understand why more companies don't just use a single interview with a screening process. It's MORE than enough to weed out the outright failures and you're still safeguarded by a 30-90 days "tryout" period at which time you can FIRE THEM AT WILL. Seriously, it's not that big of a jump, people just get too damned nervous when finding new people (or maybe just don't want to do the paperwork).
Admin
LOL. And if there's any Flex involved, well that's a Crime Against Humanity!
Admin
Many times jobs like that are already earmarked for someone in-house to be promoted to, but company or government rules require them to interview and advertise the positions. So they do the dog and pony show, and come up with some trivial reason to reject all but the internal applicant. That way they can say "See, we tried!". Point is, don't take it personally... it was politics, nothing at all to do with your skills set or anything you did right or wrong. They never intended to hire anyone in the first place.
Admin
Edit doesn't work in Firefox. Thanks though, Sparky.
Admin
Why the US of course! Seriously, for most places in the US, in US dollars, $30K is not that much for a developer position, so I figured one of the following might apply:
So you see, not an "Ugly American" comment (or at least not by design) but rather a "what's the story?" question.
Admin
See previous comment. Doesn't work in IETab, either.
Admin
Do you see "$" anywhere in the original post?
Admin
Don't forget the hiring manager's brother-in-law, and similar sorts of nepotism. The good news is that if you're in any sort of protected class (race, gender, etc) and the job is for an Equal Opportunity Employer, you may have grounds for a nice discrimination lawsuit.
Admin
Did you report the first guy as a replicant to the authorities?
You know we can't have them running around unchecked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replicant
Admin
Or they had to post the job in order to be able to get a visa for somebody.
Admin
It was there originally, but then it got mad when I asked the question, yelled at me and then stormed away.
So, um... back to work!
Admin
It does. In Firefox.
Admin
This is sooooo annoying. When I was going through a spate of interviews last summer, there was one at a government wildlife agency or somesuch. The interview placed me at the head of a large table with eight or nine people interviewing me, leafing through a fifty-page packet, asking me questions all over the map.
It was about as nerve-wracking as it sounds, but I was confident that I had done really well. In the end, they just promoted from within. The recruiter who set me up with the interview apologized for that mess, at least.
The real WTF is that nine people having nothing better to do with their time that all of them are sitting in on every hour-long interview, though.
Odd, it worked in my Firefox. Only thing it's got installed is Firebug.
Admin
I think you have to be registered if you want to edit your posts.
Admin
np: Kim Hiorthoy - Uprock work (45Tribute)
Admin
I've interviewed the exact same way. When a company asks me what my salary expectations are, I always give them my hard minimum. The burden is on them to make the most competitive offer they can. Once I told a company that I would be willing to go as low as $35,000. Lo and behold, when I received their offer in the mail, it was for a salary of $35,000 per year. I then sent them an email saying the offer was insulting.
That was a year and a half ago. I'm now 23, making $46k with guaranteed raises to at least $61k by 2011.
Admin
First rule of negotiation: the first one to mention a dollar figure loses. They were prepared to go as high as $60K but he said $50K and so hey, we get him for cheaper.
But I think what the comment really meant was that he had named a range which was less than they would have paid, so they offered him that, but then he declined when it didn't go as high as some number he had never mentioned before. The "washed his hands" bit implies to me that he took another job elsewhere. The poster and his boss never even got a chance to say "$58K? Sure, we can do that!"
It might have been a case where the person got another offer and the real answer to why he took that offer was because they offered more money and instead of saying "oh well these guys just offered me more" it came across as "well you didn't offer me this magical number I never said before and so screw you guys."
Admin
So, if this were a blind person and they ran into an object that they couldn't see, would you think that "Things like this happen. And they are funny"? If a deaf person stepped out in front of a car because they couldn't hear the honking horn, would that be funny too?
I hate to get up on the PC soapbox here but the answer to your question "Shall we pretend that his behavior is not bizarre?" is YES.
Making fun of a person on the spectrum's social issues is the equivalent to mocking a blind person because they can't see or a deaf person because they can't hear.
It isn't all in good fun.
Autism is a severe mental disability. If you do not understand it, now is a good time to learn more as it is autism awareness month. AutismSpeaks.org is a good place to start.
Admin
2007 Salary Survey
Admin
I see that you zeroed in on the "funny" statement to the exclusion of the rest of my post. Please set aside your righteous indignation long enough to go back and reread it.
Admin
Employer: Would you be willing to accept $35k? You: Yes. Employer: We would like to offer you the position at $35k. You: WHAT THE FUCK!? I've never been so insulted!
Admin
Are you kidding? I laugh at the autistic all the time. Its funny because its not me!!!
Admin
Denying reality doesn't make things fluffy and nice. His behaviour is bizarre. We can ignore it, we can try to make people understand why he does it, but denying it is just lying to everyone (and yourself). Accepting the reality is just as important as understanding. To give an example that will most likely be called ridiculous, if I had a heart attack I would prefer that the paramedic didn't stand there saying "we need to pretend his heart is normal, pointing out its different behaviour is insensitive".
Admin
That is what I got out of his post too.
If you say you're willing to take $35k then you should take $35k. If you get a job elsewhere for more, then good for you but you should be honest about what salary you want.
Admin
Admin
It depends what object we're talking about. Running into a brick wall or a door probably wouldn't make me laugh. However, tripping over a wiener dog or knocking over a hobo would be awfully funny though.
Interviewees are expected to have an appropriate decorum and be able to, at least, fake that they could handle the job. Going into an interview like that and acting flustered at a simple situation is like your blind guy interviewing for a security guard position. Technically, he could do it... but when the interviewer silently steals his pen during the interview to test his awareness, it's going to hurt his chances.
Admin
So then it should be expected that you give the candidate (who will be expected to work on a team and handle stress) and fair shot at not having a meltdown during and interview. If they do, it should not be surprising that they are shown the door and I'd be damned if I'm not going to tell the story.
This poor individual didn't recognize his limitations. A deaf person showing up for an interview at a call center or a blind guy interviewing on a surveying team should elicit similar snickers.
Admin
Ha. I was at a government building a month ago with a blind security guard. This building has labyrinthine corridors and my attempt to find out which hallway I needed to start at was unsuccessful. As he finished his attempt at describing where I should go, I stole his pen. I figured he wasn't going to be needing it.
Admin
The US. You know, the one a majority of DailyWTF readers hail from as well as the authors of the site.
Admin
Maybe I'm missing something... but why would you say that you're willing to go as low as 35k, if you were not willing to go as low as 35k?
Why mention a figure as acceptable if it is not only not acceptable but even "insulting"? You're just deliberately setting up failure...
Admin
Yikes! That is NOT how you negotiate.
Your best bet is to say exactly what you want. If they hedge or waffle give your arguments for why your numbers are right. "I want 90K to do the job you've described." "I'm sorry, we were looking for someone in the 60K range." "Yes, however, my experience in this industry increases my value to you. Hire a 60K person in this industry and you'll be training them for a year... at which point they'll quit and take a job for 90K. Save yourself the headache and hire the right person now."
Your second choice is to highball. "I want 90K to do the job you've described." "I'm sorry, we were looking for someone in the 60K range." "Well, I can negotiate down to 75K in the short term but I'm going to want to see a path to 90K in the next 3-5 years."
The only time you say your lower limit is when it is higher than their stated upper limit. "I understand you are listing this position as 50K, but my lower limit is 70K... however, I think I would bring a lot of value to your company and frankly it would be a real mistake for you to hire a less qualified applicant for the critical position you have described."
All of that assumes you bring actual value to the employer. If not, why are you considering the job?
I am glad you are happy with the promises you have received from your employer. I hope you are still working for them in 2011 so you can realize your future salary. I am sad to report that $61K (USD) in 2011 will be, if current trends continue, something less than 52K USD of 2008 money. That means you have been promised an effective 5% raise every year. That is better than receiving a series of inflation-matching raises but it is not extraordinary. Young employees typically receive 5%+inflation or better yearly salary adjustments as they gradually stop letting employers take advantage of their youth.
Admin
I am not saying that we deny the reality of the behavior or that we ignore it. I think you have it exactly correct in that people have to be aware of what it is and understand why the person does it.
That is not the same thing as laughing at it.
To use your example of a heart attack, I think you would be understandably unset if people stood around and got a good laugh at how silly you looking lying on the floor.
Admin
Actually I did read your entire comment. I thought it was more polite to nicely try to point out the real lack of humor in autism rather than respond to your apparent lack of understanding of autism.
I don't think you want to have a lengthy discussion about what I think you appear to be missing about autism. And you don't seem like you meant to any harm by your statements, so just do me a favor and try and understand the disorder better before suggesting that it is humorous.
Admin
Q: How many ADD kids does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Hey, wanna' go ride bikes?
Admin
For a few years I dated a woman whose teenage son has Asperger's. I had ample exposure to him and discussion about it with her; I'm confident that I have a solid grasp of the basics. He used to do things like get right up in my face, eye to eye, and quote lines from movies and role-playing games in a loud, growling voice. At his mother's birthday party he did not grasp the humor when we tried to include him in a surprise spraying-down with silly string; he got agitated and ran to tell her. I knew how to deal with him.
He is now about to enter college. He's mentally very bright; it wouldn't surprise me to hear that he went on to become a rocket scientist.
You, MJ, are still confusing the condition of autism with the unexpected and startling situation in which the interviewer found himself. I will repeat once more, that it is the situation which was funny; and it was indeed funny. The humor is not directed at the interviewee or his condition.
I'm sure you will not agree. That's okay. Just understand, I do know a little more about autism than you think; and I do know how to distinguish appropriate humor from the other.
Admin
High-functioning autism. If it was ADHD, he wouldn't be sitting in a perfectly-positioned chair, he'd be sitting on the corner of your desk, and the bookcase, and the windowsill, and the light fixture, and....