The Daily WTF: Curious Perversions in Information Technology

Remy Porter · 2010-04-20 Reply Admin

smxlong:
Information is defined as the negative logarithm of likelihood. When the base of this logarithm happens to be 2, the resulting unit is called a "bit." If it's base e, it's called a "nat."

That is one definition of information. Classical information is defined as the log-base-10 of the number of possible states. If a system A has N possible states then the amount of information contained in a single state is log(N). Algorithmic information theory says that the amount of information contained in a string is equivalent to the shortest algorithm for generating said string. And information in a quantum context is its own kettle of flipjacks.

The point is, there's no "one" definition of information.

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

fjf:
NotaDBA:
anon:
you must be one of the people who prefer using imperial units to metric

Ease of conversion between submultiples of units does not outweigh the arbitrariness of scale of those units. Imperial units are based on day-to-day activities on a human scale.
[citation required]

Wasn't aware citations were required for common knowledge.

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

mike:
Zach Bora:
I don't get it, why would it be different for memory and storage?
1000 is used because it's easier for us 10-fingered people to understand.

What about us 11-fingered people? (Do I mean three or eleven? You'll never know.)

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Zach Bora:
The megabyte is a multiple of the unit byte for digital information storage or transmission with two different values depending on context: 1 048 576 bytes (1024^2) generally for computer memory; and one million bytes (10^6, see prefix mega-) generally for computer storage. The IEEE Standards Board has decided that "Mega will mean 1 000 000", with exceptions allowed for the base-two meaning.
src: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megabyte
I don't get it, why would it be different for memory and storage?

Marketing. The grumblesmurfing feckers who sell hard drives like bigger numbers. So do the telcos.

Seriously, though, the reason is probably that communications and hard drives (as opposed to SSDs, flash drives and memory chips) aren't manufactured as sizes of powers of two. With silicon chips, however, it's bad engineering to not use powers of two.

Frankly, I'm with DudeWaitWhat wrt mebipeople.

Akismet sucks. Akismet sucks more. Akismet sucks golfballs through a garden hose. Basketballs even. Planets. Like yo momma. Beaten to submission. Removing link. Maybe you should drop the support for it as well?

frits · 2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Whatsinaname:
mike:
Zach Bora:
I don't get it, why would it be different for memory and storage?
1000 is used because it's easier for us 10-fingered people to understand.

What about us 11-fingered people? (Do I mean three or eleven? You'll never know.)

I thought you meant 17.

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

campkev:
Anders:
mb = millibit = (1/1000) bit MB = Megabyte = 1000000 bytes

How exactly do you have a thousandth of a bit?

Qubits and probability distributions?

Maurits · 2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Anon1:
fjf:
NotaDBA:
anon:
you must be one of the people who prefer using imperial units to metric

Ease of conversion between submultiples of units does not outweigh the arbitrariness of scale of those units. Imperial units are based on day-to-day activities on a human scale.
[citation required]

Wasn't aware citations were required for common knowledge.

No, just for ignorant blather.

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

NotaDBA:
Ease of conversion between submultiples of units does not outweigh the arbitrariness of scale of those units. Imperial units are based on day-to-day activities on a human scale. Why would you want to fix something that's not broken?

Who says imperial units aren't broken?

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

mike:
Zach Bora:
I don't get it, why would it be different for memory and storage?

Memory is manufactured on silicon, where it almost always makes sense to manufacture in power-of-two units. Further, CPUs logically address memory using bits to count, which makes a power-of-two range more sensible than an arbitrary one based on the number of fingers humans have. Hence 1024.

Storage (and bandwidth for that matter) has no such manufacturing nor addressing constraints, so 1000 is used because it's easier for us 10-fingered people to understand.

Actually storage does. Block sizes are powers of two, because they would be a pain in the ass to deal with otherwise. You know, should you choose to use any sane file system. I suppose the checksum calculations for data integrity inside the drive also prefer that.

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

fjf:
NotaDBA:
anon:
you must be one of the people who prefer using imperial units to metric

Ease of conversion between submultiples of units does not outweigh the arbitrariness of scale of those units. Imperial units are based on day-to-day activities on a human scale.
[citation required]

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s11563.htm http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Metrication/metric_land.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_opposition

Remy Porter · 2010-04-20 Reply Admin

[quote user="frits"][quote user="Whatsinaname"] I thought you meant 17.[/quote]

Are you sure it isn't 9? Or 2? I think 9 is the most plausible.

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Eyjafjallajökull:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s11563.htm http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Metrication/metric_land.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_opposition

Those are some of the dumbest things I've ever read. Particularly the second one. (Hint: whenever you see someone use the word "intellectual" as an insult, expect to hear something utterly stupid from them in short order.) I suppose we should switch to base 16 rather than base 10 too, because it's divisible by 2 more times?

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

mr_smith:
Isn't one of the boss main jobs to remove obstacles and impediments of his team?

Thank you for saying this; can I have you explain this to the people here?

frits · 2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Remy Porter:
frits:
I thought you meant 17.

Are you sure it isn't 9? Or 2? I think 9 is the most plausible.

While I get 9, I'm not sure where 2 comes from. Base 1?

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Dwayne:
Eyjafjallajökull:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s11563.htm http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Metrication/metric_land.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_opposition
Those are some of the dumbest things I've ever read. Particularly the second one. (Hint: whenever you see someone use the word "intellectual" as an insult, expect to hear something utterly stupid from them in short order.) I suppose we should switch to base 16 rather than base 10 too, because it's divisible by 2 more times?

Nice ad hominem argument.

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

DudeWaitWhat:
RandomUser423682:
Scott:
Patrick:
leo:
Anders:
mib = mibibit = (1/1048576) bit mb = millibit = (1/1000) bit MiB = Mebibyte = 1048576 bytes MB = Megabyte = 1000000 bytes
Nah. Clearly leo had it right. 1 megabyte = 1048576 bytes, the same way 1 kilobyte = 1024 bytes, and 1 kilometre = 1024 metres.
Er... Hmm.

Well, I suppose the span of Niagara Falls would still be, "fractionally over a kilometre," either way.
Actually, this is a very good representation of the argument against kibi-, mebi-, gibi-, etc.

You can't have divisions of a bit. A millibit can't exist. A bit is a Binary digIT. A digit is an indivisible unit. The concept it represents may or may not be, but it itself is indivisible. Thus, half of the SI prefixes for bits don't apply. Following that, NONE of the SI prefixes can apply, since they're a set - all or nothing. So the prefixes used by bits are NOT SI prefixes. They simply mimic SI prefixes in context.

This proves that we don't need kibi-, mebi-, or gibi- or any of their braindead ilk. Kilo-, mega-, and giga- will do just fine in the context of bits, even with their non-base-10 multipliers.

And bytes follow this by extension, since they're defined in terms of bits.

In conclusion, those that continue to push for the use of kibi-, mebi-, gibi-, etc. can die in a fire.

Really I wouldn't care, except that people actively exploit the ambiguity. And most people are against the "binary unit prefixes" for one of two reasons: 1) kibi-, mebi-, gibi-, etc. sound stupid [granted; they could have done better]; and 2) "we've always done it the other way."

For #2: no, we haven't, or there wouldn't be any ambiguity. Plus, it's a weak argument. "We should keep (ab)using X and ignore the existence of less confusing, equivalent alternatives, because X is traditional."

Remy Porter · 2010-04-20 Reply Admin

frits:
Base 1?

"Unary", as I like to call it.

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

campkev:
Anders:
mb = millibit = (1/1000) bit MB = Megabyte = 1000000 bytes

How exactly do you have a thousandth of a bit?

Don't you know that there are also things like 1.5 dimensions?

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

ircmaxell:
It's very simple... http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ftfy&l=1

Can you explain what Google is? I only have the internet - is Google like AOL? Who do I call to buy The Google?

ircmaxell:
It amazes me how many people don't just do that when they don't understand something...

I always assumed they're here to see how we apreciate the code they've contributed to the site - it is clear that they're physically incapable of doing their own research for a simple definition, so I find it unlikely that they can look up documentation for an API they haven't memorized.

(Also, akismet can bite my ass.)

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Remy Porter:
The point is, there's no "one" definition of information.

Thank you for that information!

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Jo Diggs:
LOL, thats classical stuff dude. Well done.
Lou www.vpn-privacy.us.tc

The worst part about Akismet is that it doesn't even work!

Matt Westwood · 2010-04-20 Reply Admin

ircmaxell:
Izhido:
Can somebody just frickin' explain to me what a frickin' "ftfy" is?
It's very simple... http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ftfy&l=1
It amazes me how many people don't just do that when they don't understand something...

What an awesome link. +1

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Patrick:
AnOldRelic:
campkev:
Anders:
mb = millibit = (1/1000) bit MB = Megabyte = 1000000 bytes

How exactly do you have a thousandth of a bit?

Technically, bits are just off and on voltage. Instead of slamming voltage to high, you incrementally increase it until you get 1/1000 of your maximum capacity.

That's the theory, anyway.
Sounds like the sort of thing used in error diffusion. Depending on the type of interference, set the mibibit threshold to separate the 1s from the 0s. Typically, you'd want it on 500, but magnetic fields might require it to go higher or long distance to make it lower.

Lemmon Curry?

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Of course, on embedded systems, this entire conversation is moot due the lack of a file system...

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

avflinsch:
campkev:
Anders:
mb = millibit = (1/1000) bit MB = Megabyte = 1000000 bytes

How exactly do you have a thousandth of a bit?

You gather up 1000 microbits of course. Now to get a microbit you will need to start collecting nanobits, but that is another story.

You are a unit nazi

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

WTH? I thought everyone wanted someone just like Kevin?

Captcha: venio -- God I hope the blood test comes back negative.

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Two true stories in the same vein: I was the PFY (it was a long time ago) in a shop that was going to get a memory upgrade. Along with the memory upgrade was an implicit upgrade of the operating system (since it took up more core [real core memory!]). If the memory upgrade were to take place with the existing operating system, it would "auto size" and everyone would use the new memory, and we wouldn't go to the better operating system (which I didn't want to do). So, I patched the running operating system to only use the existing amount of memory, even if the machine were upgraded. Then I could say: "we need to go to the next operating system to use the bigger memory" (works for me!). This went well until the older operating system crashed, and my boss reloaded it from a backup tape that didn't have the patch. Bad Karma and some explaining to do. Eventually we went to the new operating system anyway, and I was OK.

In the second case, on a different machine, batch jobs were submitted with a priority that ranged from 1 to 15. The limit on how high you could submit was in your login parameters. Of course everyone had 15 as their limit, and nobody could bump anything to a higher priority since it was at the "max". I said why not make everyone's max at 1, and if you needed ot make it higher, go to the console and then you can bump it. Thankfully there were some "cool heads" and actually understood what I was saying. From then on having a priority of 1 was pretty good, and all was well with the world.

Sometimes the boss does understand, but it IS rare!

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

RandomUser423682:
And most people are against the "binary unit prefixes" for one of two reasons: 1) kibi-, mebi-, gibi-, etc. sound stupid [granted; they could have done better]; and 2) "we've always done it the other way."
For #2: no, we haven't, or there wouldn't be any ambiguity.

Yes, we have.

For as long as we've been measuring binary data in large enough quantities to need to worry about those numbers, which is as "always" as it gets in this context, we've been using "kilo" and "mega" etc. to mean powers-of-two in reference to that data.

RandomUser423682:
Plus, it's a weak argument. "We should keep (ab)using X and ignore the existence of less confusing, equivalent alternatives, because X is traditional."

Not because it's traditional; because it's established. Trying to change an established usage to another one, without first getting buy-in from the people with whom the usage is established, is asking for trouble.

Plus, it isn't ambiguous - and, I think I would argue, is not an abuse - to use the terms to mean powers of two when referring to data and as powers of 10 when referring to things other than data, as long as you are consistent about doing so. The problem with that is that, for one reason or another, people aren't consistent about it.

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

DudeWaitWhat:
RandomUser423682:
Scott:
Patrick:
leo:
Anders:
mib = mibibit = (1/1048576) bit mb = millibit = (1/1000) bit MiB = Mebibyte = 1048576 bytes MB = Megabyte = 1000000 bytes
ftfy
ftfy
ftfy
Nah. Clearly leo had it right. 1 megabyte = 1048576 bytes, the same way 1 kilobyte = 1024 bytes, and 1 kilometre = 1024 metres.
Er... Hmm.

Well, I suppose the span of Niagara Falls would still be, "fractionally over a kilometre," either way.

Actually, this is a very good representation of the argument against kibi-, mebi-, gibi-, etc.

You can't have divisions of a bit. A millibit can't exist. A bit is a Binary digIT. A digit is an indivisible unit. The concept it represents may or may not be, but it itself is indivisible. Thus, half of the SI prefixes for bits don't apply. Following that, NONE of the SI prefixes can apply, since they're a set - all or nothing. So the prefixes used by bits are NOT SI prefixes. They simply mimic SI prefixes in context.

This proves that we don't need kibi-, mebi-, or gibi- or any of their braindead ilk. Kilo-, mega-, and giga- will do just fine in the context of bits, even with their non-base-10 multipliers.

And bytes follow this by extension, since they're defined in terms of bits.

In conclusion, those that continue to push for the use of kibi-, mebi-, gibi-, etc. can die in a fire.

QFT

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Franz Kafka:
Megabyte = 2^20 Gigabyte = 2^30
See how simple that is? Not my fault some people are all butthurt over us CS guys coopting SI units.

WIN!

CAPTCHA: "distineo" - Roasted Salmon Cilantro lime cream sauce

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

grizz:
Is this a common practice that I've been blissfully unaware of all this time?

Perhaps it's you they're hiding it from? ;-)

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Izhido:
Can somebody just frickin' explain to me what a frickin' "fixed that for you" is?

ftfy.

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Patrick:
It's like someone gives you a thousand matches and asks you to light a candle. You don't use all of them, just one.

Wow, you have no idea how to have fun, do you?

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

While this WTF certainly drew a smile, and I think it's one of the best ones in a long time, I think that the decision to change the system commands to delude the boss was wrong. Whether engineering computations should or shouldn't run is a management decision. Management is responsible for the money, management is held accountable towards the shareholders, so management should take the decision (or delegate, of course).

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Anders:
mb = millibit = (1/1000) bit MB = Megabyte = 1000000 bytes

MB = 100000000000000000000 bytes Why is that so hard to understand?

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Patrick:
leo:
Anders:
mb = millibit = (1/1000) bit MiB = K & J (Tommy Lee Jones & Will Smith) MB = Megabyte = 1000000 bytes

ftfy
ftfy

ftfy

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Izhido:
Can somebody just frickin' explain to me what a frickin' "ftfy" is?

It's the arrogant and assholier-than-thou notion that what you said was incorrect or inaccurate, or not funny or insulting enough, and that I have a much better understanding of what your puny brain was trying to communicate than you, living with it as you do, possibly could.

Personally, I prefer FTFM, as in, "You probably meant exactly what you said, but MY worldview prefers [this]"...

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

frits:
Whatsinaname:
mike:
Zach Bora:
I don't get it, why would it be different for memory and storage?
1000 is used because it's easier for us 10-fingered people to understand.

What about us 11-fingered people? (Do I mean three or eleven? You'll never know.)

I thought you meant 17.

What the hex?

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Eyjafjallajökull:
Dwayne:
Eyjafjallajökull:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s11563.htm http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Metrication/metric_land.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_opposition
Those are some of the dumbest things I've ever read. Particularly the second one. (Hint: whenever you see someone use the word "intellectual" as an insult, expect to hear something utterly stupid from them in short order.) I suppose we should switch to base 16 rather than base 10 too, because it's divisible by 2 more times?

Nice ad hominem argument.

That's not Ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem)...

Fuck Akismet.

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

ClaudeSuck.de:
Patrick:
AnOldRelic:
campkev:
Anders:
mb = millibit = (1/1000) bit MB = Megabyte = 1000000 bytes

How exactly do you have a thousandth of a bit?

Technically, bits are just off and on voltage. Instead of slamming voltage to high, you incrementally increase it until you get 1/1000 of your maximum capacity.

That's the theory, anyway.
Sounds like the sort of thing used in error diffusion. Depending on the type of interference, set the mibibit threshold to separate the 1s from the 0s. Typically, you'd want it on 500, but magnetic fields might require it to go higher or long distance to make it lower.

Lemmon Curry?

LemonParty. Dot org.

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Jack:
one megabyte of memory, up to 63 concurrent jobs
Most of you programmers today couldn't barf up a useless splash screen with only a megabyte of memory, much less run 63 jobs, even if your life depended on it. The GUI fanbois keep promising it will get easy enough for idiots to use it any day now, meanwhile those of us who actually have work to do are getting more and more hindered by your bloat.
Get off my lawn. Better yet, get off my planet, and take your bloatware with you.

QFT.

Maurits · 2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Remy Porter:
frits:
Base 1?

"Unary", as I like to call it.

AKA tally marks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_marks

robbak · 2010-04-20 Reply Admin

My comments on the comments (Because I can, not Because I should (See "Bikeshedding").)-

I think "millibits" Would make a good bit of jargon when talking about flaky hardware. [Turns out the voltage regulator was fried, so it only was getting to about 600 millibits on a good day].
I love MebiBits, Gibibits and Tebibits. Mostly because I cannot read them without smiling, or say them without laughing.

2010-04-20 Reply Admin

caecus:
Patrick:
leo:
Anders:
mb = millibit = (1/1000) bit MiB = K & J (Tommy Lee Jones & Will Smith) MB = Megabyte = 1000000 bytes SS = Serious Shit = 1.21GW = 88mph

ftfy
ftfy
ftfy

ftfy

Malenfant · 2010-04-20 Reply Admin

Anon1:
fjf:
NotaDBA:
anon:
you must be one of the people who prefer using imperial units to metric

Ease of conversion between submultiples of units does not outweigh the arbitrariness of scale of those units. Imperial units are based on day-to-day activities on a human scale.
[citation required]

Wasn't aware citations were required for common knowledge.

As usual, 'common knowledge' is actually nonsense. Imperial may be based on day-to-day activities, i.e a yard is ~a stride, but in practice this is irrelevant, as we want exact, not approximate. My stride is significantly longer than a yard, so using this approximation gives a wildly in-accurate value. The fact that supposed engineers would cite this as a reason is especially odd.

4merK0d34 · 2010-04-21 Reply Admin

[quote user="burntangel"][quote user="DudeWaitWhat"][quote user="RandomUser423682"]

Actually, this is a very good representation of the argument against kibi-, mebi-, gibi-, etc.

You can't have divisions of a bit. A millibit can't exist. A bit is a Binary digIT. A digit is an indivisible unit. The concept it represents may or may not be, but it itself is indivisible.[/quote]

That comment is the real WTF. It is perfectly possible to have divisions of a bit. Take a look at binary decision tree construction (or information theory) for examples of the use of fractions of a bit, or even millibits. [/quote]

---------------------------------> | | ------- W H O O S H -------------> |(Humor)| ---------------------------------> | | ----------- > Your head < ----------- | | <-- Pencil

2010-04-21 Reply Admin

No such thing as a millibit so really the differentiation between mb and MB is silly.

2010-04-21 Reply Admin

Name Here:
Zach Bora:

The megabyte is a multiple of the unit byte for digital information storage or transmission with two different values depending on context: 1 048 576 bytes (1024^2) generally for computer memory; and one million bytes (10^6, see prefix mega-) generally for computer storage. The IEEE Standards Board has decided that "Mega will mean 1 000 000", with exceptions allowed for the base-two meaning.
src: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megabyte
I don't get it, why would it be different for memory and storage?
Because slimy disk drive vendors wanted to make their product look bigger than it really was, so they would claim it would store a megabyte when in fact it only had room for 1,000,000 bytes (and less than that after overhead). But you can't make RAM in decimal quantities, it is an inherently binary product. So when you buy RAM, a meg is a meg and a gig is a gig.

Disk drive vendors can suck eggs and die. They're the reason for this push to define "MiB" etc. since they stole the original meaning of "MB".

SI predates computers.

It's some lazy engineers that stole the SI notation of k, M, G and T and redefined it as a 1024 multiplier instead of 1000. So slimy or not, drive manufacturers are correct, and you're just lazy and want to do things out of habit like a stupid dinosaur looking at a giant fireball in the sky.

2010-04-21 Reply Admin

Anders:
mb = millibit = (1/1000) bit MB = Megabyte = 1000000 bytes

Seconded. I hate when people can't get simple units correct.

mb != MB Kb != KB Gb != GB

2010-04-21 Reply Admin

Mel:
But once we got past the demo and the install and started using it, we discovered that when two people entered a command at about the same time, the first one would run to completion before the second one even said "Processing". So, naturally, with all 8 users doing their jobs as fast as they could, the system was "down" 95% of the time. Because, of course, if it didn't say "Processing" within 1/3 of a second, they'd enter the command again. Five times, just in case.

This sounds more like a usability issue, just print "Waiting for free slot..." as soon as the user enters the command.

I'm Givin' Ye All She's Got!

See how simple that is? Not my fault some people are all butthurt over us CS guys coopting SI units.

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