• JBange (unregistered) in reply to Top Cod3r
    Top Cod3r:
    The "consultant" in this story was the biggest WTF. He said himself that the building was 1500 sq feet, but 100Base-T has a physical distance limitation of around 100m, so the intermittent network problems were most likely caused by physical distance of the cable runs, not some guy mopping the floor. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100Base-T)

    Sounds this this guy was about to get canned for a job where he got in over his head and decided to bash his former client on Worse Than Failure to get back at them.

    Nice one.

    The real WTF is why someone would call themselves "Top Coder" when they don't know the difference between "1500 square feet" and "1500 feet square". Of course, the fact that you spelled it 'leet style "Top Cod3r" pretty much indicates that it's wishful thinking rather than accurate self description anyway.

  • Timm-eh (unregistered) in reply to JBange

    Plus, isn't that the theoretical distance due to signal degradation? One switch along a 150 meter run should fix that problem.

  • (cs) in reply to Robert Hanson
    Robert Hanson:
    Why walk out? This sounds like a cash cow. You stop in every couple of days on you lunch hour, "fix" something (remove some spyware, reconnect a cable, replace a cable, etc) and bill at a big hourly rate.

    A nice, mindless, paying diversion from a real job.

    If Steve is not going to pay for proper cabling, then he probably isn't going to pay for this. Furthermore, what you propose sounds unethical -- while you are doing these few things each day, Steve's employees continue to be exposed to the danger of electrocution and / or fire.

    I agree with previous posters who would warn OSHA about this guy.

  • (cs)

    Jesus! Ive had to go cheap on my home net but this is unbelievably bad. Im coning to post a sidebar WTF about the nearest case :)

  • (cs) in reply to Rootbeer
    Rootbeer:
    part of the WTF here is why it never occurred to the consultant to recommend they switch over to a WiFi network. Kind of a no-brainer, really.

    Yes, switching to a WiFi network would be the recommendation of a consultant with no brains. (I.e., a consultant.)

    Sure, that'll solve the network-cables-everywhere problem, but what about the power cables?

    If they're not going to pay for new hardware, why would they pay for wireless infrastructure anyway?

  • (cs) in reply to Garp
    Garp:
    You would be hard pressed to find any financial standards organisations that will authorise CC transmission over wireless networks.
    So how do the handheld chip and pin devices here in the UK ( http://www.chipandpin.co.uk/media/resources/photos.html ) work - fairy power?
  • Utunga (unregistered) in reply to Eric
    Eric:
    I would've taken that job with pride ...

    Really, that sort of job is where every hour of even mild professionalism makes a real difference. And they bill hourly, lost or scared away all other contractors ...

    The mere fact that this shop still existed with all this crap going on means its business fundamentals must be overwhelming...

    Imagine what this shop could do if you - the magic wizard in tie and suit who slayed the mighty bonziBuddy in just five minutes - would have a proper infrastructure laid out, with real backups, working net connections, access controls, user account management. Their profits should go through the roof...

    I'm guessing you haven't actually worked on many real jobs like this out there in the 'real world'.

    Regrettably, a nutcase like Steve would've refused to pay even a small part of what was required for the massive upgrade needed. Witness his comment about 'its only cables' and 'its been working for years'.

    You are probably right that the business fundamentals are strong, but to some extent perhaps part of their profitability comes from his cutting corners.

    Have you ever heard the term "technical debt"? http://www.martinfowler.com/bliki/TechnicalDebt.html

    It sounds to me like part of the reason Steve has got to where he is because by cutting corners he's saved a lot of cash on IT (and goodness knows what else). Unfortunately his business has now racked up a big technical debt. What IT folks sometimes fail to realise is that doing things 'properly' can cost real money and slow a business down, so in point of fact it can actually be a real win for a business to cut corners - sometimes! Unfortunately for Steve, having cut all those corners for so long, he now has a choice between a huge cost to upgrade the existing infrastructure to where it needs to be to continue growing (ie pay back the princpal on the debt) or he can keep paying heavy ongoing payments (of 'technical interest' in the form of continual down time).

    If you could convince someone like Steve to make that kind of shift in thinking, then you would indeed be a Wizard, and worth every penny of your hourly rate. Unfortunately having met folks like Steve I'm sure he no doubt hates folks with the 'professionalism' you describe especially when they are looking for the hourly rate to back it up.

    Regrettably, someone like Steve is going to make it virtually impossible to get any real 'wins' because he'll cut the legs off of every suggestion that could make a real improvement and instead go for the cheap and nasty every time.

    There's a reason this description sounds like countless 'small' businesses out there. Small businesses like this don't grow into the kind of 'big' business environment you are probably used to.

  • MadMike (unregistered) in reply to Andy
    Andy:
    WPA-PSK is only insecure if you choose a stupid password. If you use a long random key that fully uses the 128 bit key space it's fine.

    I'm using a random generated WPA-PSK and feel pretty comfy with the setup. The only 'problem' is tiping that dang key on devices that don't have a keyboard like my Noxon 2, http://www.my-noxon.com

  • (cs)

    I remember being once an innocent 22 year old student that would do almost anything for a few bucks to pay his bowl of noodles with shrimp flavored sauce (no actual shrimps). A friend told me he was leaving town and there was this company that used to call him to fix problems with the network, can you give me a hand and go there and see what seems to be the problem today, I owe you a beer.

    10 computers connected to a single 12 port hub located in the boss' office connected to an adsl modem - fair enough, that's cheap and gets the job done. Using one Cat5 utp cable for 2 computers - not exactly what I would call a great solution, but it used to work for them. At least until that day. They even had troughs for the cables.

    I started by rebooting the adsl modem (it usually solved most problems with adsl back then), but it didn't work. Worse, the internal network was unreachable. Unconvincedly I wanted to restart the hub (I've never heard of a hub crash before), I shrugged seeing the two-headed utp cables, and then I noticed the problem. The problem was standing in front of me, breathing heavily and sweating like hell. It was the boss.

    The company that did the wiring had not only the great idea of cutting costs by using less cable than necessary, they also had put the sockets in random places. In the boss' office, the socket was near the door, quite far from his desk. But hey, what's that thing just behind the desk? It's the hub! And it happens to have a free socket called "uplink", haha that's funny. We don't need no stinkin' uplink. We need a socket 'round the desk. We plug the cable into the socket. We have no network. Nobody has network.

    I unplugged the cable from the uplink and put it in the last spare socket. Wow, it works. Don't do that again, kthxbye.

    They called me again next week. The network went down. The boss had brought his laptop from home and he wanted to plug it in...

  • Hoover (unregistered) in reply to dustin
    dustin:
    the real wtf is that the boss has to mop the floor.

    Not really. It fits right in with his modus operandi. Does he look like he's the type of person willing to spend actual money?

  • El Dorko (unregistered)

    Hehe, I've had a customer exactly like that. A 6 person shop with a large warehouse where wireless won't work because of all the tons of metal between, so they had drawn cables over the shelves. And naturally every now and then someone would lift a forklift too high and yank a cable, so that all the ends were broken - the little thingamajickie that keeps the cable secured. So whenever anyone touched a cable from then on, it would come lose and something would not work.

    They had a network printer which was very much in use by everyone, and naturally they were totally upset every time a network cable came loose and they couldn't print. So they asked me to help with it ("the printer doesn't work"). First thing I recommended was install some cable trays and attach everything nicely. Would've cost a few hundred euros + work, but no, that was too expensive. No problem, I said I can't really do much else, but give me a call if you still need me in anyway.

    A week or two later they called me and asked if I could come in and install a printer. Or two. Or actually, six printers. What they'd done was buy six printer-fax-copiers, one for everyone, because "the network printer never works". Cost about 10x what it would've cost to just redo the cables properly, but hey, I don't mind, I spent a few hours installing the printers and billed that, it's cool with me ;-)

    So now the customer still has a network that is down every now and then, a perfectly good network printer that is not used, and a huge multifunction machine taking half the desk space on every desk - but they're happy with it. I guess the sky is just of different color on some people's home planet than on mine...

  • Dave (unregistered) in reply to WyrdOne
    WyrdOne:
    TimmyT:
    They should go all wireless, that would help a little bit I think.

    Yep, with all those credit card transactions flying around you'd be plenty secure.

    yes, I'd much prefer my CC number securely sent over wire to the spyware-laden windoze-ME based 'credit-card server' :)

    captcha: gotcha

  • (cs)

    The absolute worst I have seen was back in 2000 at a residential treatment center for adolescent girls. I was hired as network/sysadmin. This place consisted of 6 buildings all connected by Fiber. The network itself was this weird mix of token ring/ethernet. Servers, routers, and hubs were often placed in employee offices. Where the fiber cable came into the building was often were the students could often just grab and break on a whim. No Server rooms, locks, or anything to protect the equipment. Often times employees would unplug some crucial piece of equipment to plug in their fan. I managed to convince them that they needed to redo their network and they did over a few years time.

    However one day was a complete nightmare. I'm sitting in my office configuring a new server when I get the call from maintenance that I should come over to one of the dorms and assess some damage. When I got their John the maintenance guy told me the story.

    apparently the previous night some kid managed to break the toilet and water started to spew from the pipe. Well as it turns out no one thought to call maintenance to shut off the water, they just let it run ALL NIGHT. Water had seeped down 2 floors to the dining room before setting off the fire alarms in the building, Completely destroyed Everything in the office below, and caused a good amount of structural damage to the building. Several people were fired and all in the cleanup was a nightmare. I had to get the entire buildings network redone from scratch.

  • NeoMojo (unregistered)

    You're all over thinking the solution. Duct Tape fixes everything.

  • Henry (unregistered) in reply to Dave C.
    Dave C.:
    Am I the only one terrified at the thought of working in a second story cube built out of 4x4 and plywood?

    No, no, the plywood is great and stacking up is even better. See, when the owner has had enough and sets fire to the place, the plywood will go like gangbusters. Of course, all those cables on the floor will help, too. They're like fuses.

    The solution to the problem is obviously more plywood. Build a false floor over the cables on the floor and you don't need any tape for the first layer of cables, and you have a whole 'nuther floor surface to lay cables on top of.

    What puzzles me is not the OSHA thing, because they don't inspect until they get a complaint, but the local fire marshall often does routine inspections of commercial establishments.

  • (cs)

    sometimes the best thing you can do it transform yourself into arsonist and finish the job at night ;)

    captcha: kids don't do this at home...

  • (cs) in reply to topcat_arg
    topcat_arg:
    sometimes the best thing you can do it transform yourself into arsonist and finish the job at night ;)

    Someone's been watching Office Space :)

  • A non-racist James (unregistered) in reply to James
    James:
    All of this sounds like something an immigrant entrepreneur would do. Or at least not someone named Steve.

    Wow.

    It's been a while since I've seen such an ignorant and bigoted comment in a thread like this. Way to give us James' a bad name.

    It's a long, hard road to make Grand Dragon, but with your attitude, I think you can do it!

  • Look at me! I'm on the internets! (unregistered) in reply to Mr Steve
    Mr Steve:
    Top Cod3r:
    The "consultant" in this story was the biggest WTF. He said himself that the building was 1500 sq feet, but 100Base-T has a physical distance limitation of around 100m, so the intermittent network problems were most likely caused by physical distance of the cable runs, not some guy mopping the floor. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100Base-T)

    Sounds this this guy was about to get canned for a job where he got in over his head and decided to bash his former client on Worse Than Failure to get back at them.

    Nice one.

    I don't get it - 1500ft^0.5 ~39 ft ~12m

    if the office was a square each wall would only be 12 metres - that's a small office hence the tree houses. You have to get really creative in order to use 100 meters network cables ;]

    But, if the office is only 4 ft wide, thats 114 metres long.

  • TexDex (unregistered) in reply to Look at me! I'm on the internets!
    Look at me! I'm on the internets!:
    Mr Steve:
    Top Cod3r:
    The "consultant" in this story was the biggest WTF. He said himself that the building was 1500 sq feet, but 100Base-T has a physical distance limitation of around 100m, so the intermittent network problems were most likely caused by physical distance of the cable runs, not some guy mopping the floor. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100Base-T)

    Sounds this this guy was about to get canned for a job where he got in over his head and decided to bash his former client on Worse Than Failure to get back at them.

    Nice one.

    I don't get it - 1500ft^0.5 ~39 ft ~12m

    if the office was a square each wall would only be 12 metres - that's a small office hence the tree houses. You have to get really creative in order to use 100 meters network cables ;]

    But, if the office is only 4 ft wide, thats 114 metres long.

    Yeah, and if the office is only 1 foot wide it's almost 500 meters! Might be a bit hard to fit a 17" monitor though. Better use flat screens!

  • Jno (unregistered) in reply to MadMike
    MadMike:
    <snip> http://www.my-noxon.com
    Um die folgenden Seite betrachten zu können, benötigen Sie eine aktuelle Version des Flash-Players.

    WTF? Der noxon geplonkt sind.

  • masonReloaded (unregistered)

    Uh, even if he wants to half-ass the job, at least help him half-ass it in a way that will fix the problem - tell him to get some cheap plastic conduit/pipes and run the wires up the wall across the ceiling. Do a cable test on all the existing cables and replace any that are busted, and move them all to the ceiling instead of the floor...

    if only the guy was willing to pay just a little to fix the issue, but not enough to just hire a professional cable installer to completely rewire the office, this would be the kind of job I would love to fix - limited budget, creative solutions - easy way to make a big difference.

    captcha:ninjas

  • ashkelon (unregistered) in reply to Anon
    This seems to be yet another in the long line of "I want your suggestions on how to fix this problem that I've already decided how to fix and your solution had better mesh with mine" types.

    There's nothing worse than someone who has already decided what the problem is and refuses to accept it might be something else.

    Right up there with the owners of antique and / or homebrew commerce systems who introduce themselves with "I know everything that has to be done, and I'd do it myself, but I just don't have time..."

    Flee for your life

  • bronzy (unregistered) in reply to Top Cod3r
    Top Cod3r:
    The "consultant" in this story was the biggest WTF. He said himself that the building was 1500 sq feet, but 100Base-T has a physical distance limitation of around 100m, so the intermittent network problems were most likely caused by physical distance of the cable runs, not some guy mopping the floor. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100Base-T)

    ...

    1500 ft^2 yields a linear distance of less than 40 ft for a square room. Maybe if the room were really long and narrow ...

  • (cs) in reply to Rootbeer
    Rootbeer:
    part of the WTF here is why it never occurred to the consultant to recommend they switch over to a WiFi network. Kind of a no-brainer, really.

    Yes, switching to a WiFi network would be the recommendation of a consultant with no brains. (I.e., a consultant.)

    Sure, that'll solve the network-cables-everywhere problem, but what about the power cables?

    SO I take it that a solution is useless unless it fixes everything at once? This is an IT contractor, not an electrician. The solution to the power problem requires the appropriate professional.
  • (cs) in reply to James
    James:
    All of this sounds like something an immigrant entrepreneur would do. Or at least not someone named Steve.

    I quite agree. He's giving all us Steves a bad name.

  • Sam (unregistered) in reply to Top Cod3r
    Top Cod3r:

    Sounds this this guy was about to get canned for a job where he got in over his head and decided to bash his former client on Worse Than Failure to get back at them.

    Nice one.

    "Steve" is that you?

  • Random Code Monkey (unregistered)
    Um die folgenden Seite betrachten zu können, benötigen Sie eine aktuelle Version des Flash-Players.

    WTF? Der noxon geplonkt sind.

    Apparently "WTF?" is universal :D

  • (cs) in reply to Kiss me I'm Polish
    Kiss me I'm Polish:
    The company that did the wiring had not only the great idea of cutting costs by using less cable than necessary, they also had put the sockets in random places. In the boss' office, the socket was near the door, quite far from his desk. But hey, what's that thing just behind the desk? It's the hub! And it happens to have a free socket called "uplink", haha that's funny. We don't need no stinkin' uplink. We need a socket 'round the desk. We plug the cable into the socket. We have no network. Nobody has network.

    I unplugged the cable from the uplink and put it in the last spare socket. Wow, it works. Don't do that again, kthxbye.

    They called me again next week. The network went down. The boss had brought his laptop from home and he wanted to plug it in...

    I take it this hub didn't have a switch on it for that port to make it flip it from cross-over to normal? And have you ever known a bossoid to pay attention to "don't do that again?"

  • Jerim (unregistered) in reply to Utunga

    I really liked your analysis. I have worked for and with small businesses for a while now. At first, I was resistant to anything that wasn't "standard." But as you work with small businesses you realize they have a point. IT can be expensive, even for a small network. Price out what it would cost for someone to come in and setup a network correctly, with "acceptable" computers, routers, switches, servers, etc. It could easily be $5k or more for a small business that only has $20k to work with. That is 1/4th their budget. And they still have to open the doors, pay utilities, wages, and other expenditures for a few months until the money starts coming in.

    Small businesses work on a different playing field and you need to understand that field. It isn't about being stupid, it is about being prudent. Why spend money on computers this week, when you won't be able to pay salaries next week? We being in the IT industry, we bought always put IT first. For these businesses, IT is a small part of their operation. You have to learn to work under those circumstances. Work with these companies, and when the day comes to finally upgrade, you will get the call.

  • AdT (unregistered)

    ... desktop computer ...

    • ... running Windows ME ...
    • ... completely overrun with spyware ... = ... credit card server ...

    WTF?

  • Corey (unregistered) in reply to Timm-eh

    Not really. I'm sure signal degradation plays a part though.

    The big reason has to do with the signal propagation speed through the wire. Putting an upper limit on the maximum cable length also puts an upper limit on the time you have to transmit to make sure you can detect any collisions in progress. I.e. if you and a station the farthest allowable distance from you start sending at the same time, how long does it take for you to see his transmission, noting that there's been a collision?

    Putting a switch in the middle does solve the problem, because each port of a switch is a separate segment of Ethernet (a separate "collision domain"). It also solves signal-degradation problems, since it retransmits the packets at layer 1.

  • Tinkerghost (unregistered) in reply to Top Cod3r
    Top Cod3r:
    The "consultant" in this story was the biggest WTF. He said himself that the building was 1500 sq feet, but 100Base-T has a physical distance limitation of around 100m, so the intermittent network problems were most likely caused by physical distance of the cable runs, not some guy mopping the floor. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100Base-T)

    Sounds this this guy was about to get canned for a job where he got in over his head and decided to bash his former client on Worse Than Failure to get back at them.

    Nice one.

    1500sqft = 38 X 38 storage room. NOT exactly prime candidate for overunning 100M max length. Running it all the way around the room is less just around 1/2 the max run for a cat5 cable. Now of course the room could have been 1' 1500', but it's unlikely :)

  • HarryR (unregistered) in reply to perper

    So you walk on them, roll on them and break the outer "protection" coating which is supposed to sheild them from magnetic interferance and things like... uh I dunno... people washing them?

    :)

  • Fred (unregistered) in reply to Rootbeer

    Yup, Why not use PoE (Power Over Ethernet) then put the ethernet over wireless and since you probably need more juice put in a couple of GigaWatt microwave links and you have solved the problem. Anyone walking by will be vapourised by the beam and there won't be any evidence for the OHSA guys. In fact, if you're really lucky it might even set fire to all the plywood !

  • (cs) in reply to James

    <sarcasm>Yeah,these american immigrants who come to the UK - they're always doing stuff like that</sarcasm>

  • Christian (unregistered)

    Is that the submitter of the story didn't care enough about the safety of the people working there to call OSHA, even if it would hurt his professional reputation.

  • Steve (unregistered) in reply to James

    I'm going to have to agree with you. This guy is giving Steves a bad name--- doing housework like mopping the floor better left to his perky receptionist.

  • Rich (unregistered) in reply to poochner
    poochner:

    I take it this hub didn't have a switch on it for that port to make it flip it from cross-over to normal? And have you ever known a bossoid to pay attention to "don't do that again?"

    Possibly this was a switch/hub where the "uplink" was just a crossover of port 1. That could mean that port 1 had the real "uplink" (possibly with a crossover cable) and then when the boss plugged into the uplink, that either futzed the real uplink or brought the whole switch down with two cables effectively plugged into the same port.

  • ze (unregistered) in reply to AdT

    don't forget:

    • boss mopping the floor!
  • (cs) in reply to Mike

    Why would you? That essentially describes the second story of most homes as well.

    They just never bothered to finish it up. Still, I'd want to see the quality of the work...

  • Cy (unregistered) in reply to Garp
    Garp:
    You would be hard pressed to find any financial standards organisations that will authorise CC transmission over wireless networks.

    Umm... I suppose you've never come across a wireless PDQ then? Example: http://www.terminal-solutions.co.uk/products.html

  • Kyle Soze (unregistered) in reply to Top Cod3r

    The real WTF is:

    Top Cod3r:
    The "consultant" in this story was the biggest WTF. He said himself that the building was 1500 sq feet, but 100Base-T has a physical distance limitation of around 100m, so the intermittent network problems were most likely caused by physical distance of the cable runs, not some guy mopping the floor. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100Base-T)

    Sounds this this guy was about to get canned for a job where he got in over his head and decided to bash his former client on Worse Than Failure to get back at them.

    Nice one.

  • AJS (unregistered)

    1500 square feet = about 150 square metres, so the room is most likely about 12.something by 12.something if it's square, or maybe 6.something by 25.something if it's oblong. Plenty of room within the 100m. limit.

    And on those cheap little ethernet switches, the "UPLINK" port was hardwired in parallel with port 1 but wired the opposite way around (pins 1-2 swapped with 3-6). So you can't use port 1 if you're using the uplink port. There was usually some sort of graphical indication that you might have a hope of understanding if you already knew that you weren't supposed to use them both at the same time (the point of using icons instead of words is that an icon is equally incomprehensible no matter which language you speak).

    Thankfully there's now a new "cheap switch" chipset which autodetects the wiring, so those cheap switches only have 8 ports; each of which can handle any combination of sense and polarity (I checked, well, somebody's got to). As a bonus, the newer ones can even handle a bigger routing table, so they last a fraction of a second longer before locking up completely if you join two of them together.

    BTW, did you know that Konqueror displays the text-entry area as just 2 rows by 19 columns? It's like surfing the Internet on a mobile phone!

  • Neuro (unregistered) in reply to EvanED

    Actualy the standard is 90m for the runs alowing 10m for patch cables at each end.

  • Neuro (unregistered) in reply to EvanED

    Actualy the standard is 90m for the runs alowing 10m for patch cables at each end.

  • Another Freelancer (unregistered)

    Okay, I have worked for some bad clients before, but this takes the cake. If this is a totally true story, which I could abstractly see, the company must have had money to be employing all of those people. The man in charge should have gone with the rewire right? They should just be reported to OSHA just because the man in charge was such dummy. All the employees were at risk so better they get laid off then killed.

  • whatwouldtuxdo? (unregistered) in reply to Rootbeer
    Rootbeer:
    sure wireless will solve the network cable problem but what about the power cables?

    touche, touche indeed....

  • PDK (unregistered)

    No. No. Just.... No.

  • (cs) in reply to Top Cod3r
    Top Cod3r:
    The "consultant" in this story was the biggest WTF. He said himself that the building was 1500 sq feet, but 100Base-T has a physical distance limitation of around 100m, so the intermittent network problems were most likely caused by physical distance of the cable runs, not some guy mopping the floor. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100Base-T)

    Sounds this this guy was about to get canned for a job where he got in over his head and decided to bash his former client on Worse Than Failure to get back at them.

    Nice one.

    Hooray for you, Top C0d3r. I love your posts and, more importantly, the responses you get.

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