The Daily WTF: Curious Perversions in Information Technology

2011-12-22 Reply Admin

TRWTF is referring to eval(), rather than the now-standardized JSON.parse().

Watson · 2011-12-22 Reply Admin

Worf:
Here in the US, Winter's just started - it starts on the Winter SOlstice (and ends at the Spring Equinox). But from where you are, your solstice marks the middle of winter...

FTFY

Still: having midwinter celebrations at the beginning of winter - makes sense to someone, I suppose. Unless the idea is to make people forget that they're midwinter celebrations.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Which reminds us, why the formal languages has to be a part of the education of a well-versed programmer.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

People don't really celebrate solstices/equinoctes in the US, anyway.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Gervase Markham:
TRWTF is the idea that ASN.1 is the perfect data interchange format. Firstly, it's binary, and being textual is important. But secondly, ASN.1 parsers have a history of nasty buffer overflows. Perhaps this was partly down to the implementation languages, but it doesn't suggest that it's an easy-to-parse format...

Oh, buffer overflow, my favorite story...

Watson · 2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Dre:
People don't really *celebrate* solstices/equinoctes in the US, anyway.

So what are all those celebrations supposed to be about, then?

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

DES:
TRWTF is the claim that “no one's really heard of ASN.1”

I've never heard of it.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

TRWTF is complaining about the correct way of spelling jee.

Pim · 2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Andrew:
Do tell... maybe I needing later O:-)

What, are you trying to pretend to impersonate a fake Nagesh wannabe? Ghee.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

TrailerParkJihad:
Zylon:
Ralph:
So you're asserting that software written by professional developers employed by reputable vendors, or peer-reviewed by established distribution mechanisms, installed and configured by an administrator after ensuring current backups, has the same threat model as software automatically loaded and run in real time, written by amateur anonymous random asshats half a world away?
Now let's discuss who's stupid, since you seem to consider that a productive way to frame a debate.
You are, if you believe that all locally installed software falls in the "reputable" category, and that all web software falls in the "amateur" category.

You also seem to be assuming a corporate IT environment, for some gonzo reason.

Except he didn't say "all locally installed software is reputable" or that "all web software is amateur", those are conclusions you extrapolated on your own, and are in no way even alluded to in what he said. So no, it's still you.

Us crazy programmers with our logics. I suspect half the people here have corrected some random person who thought something was mutually exclusive, but wasn't.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Abso:
MojoMonkeyfish:
"JSON (JavaScript Object Notation) has been gaining favor"
That's the understatement of the day. From my experience, at least.

XML has a huge overhead, on documents large and small, and is less readable than JSON (not that human readability was actually a design consideration).

Also, "TRWTF is Javascript?" What language were you planning on using for your client side browser scripting again? I mean, it's not my field. I work on server-side, and I don't particularly like Java, but it's hardly a WTF to work with it, especially in this context.

I talked to someone recently who was extolling the virtues of server-side java script. Well, ok, not so much talked to him as sat in stunned silence while he talked, but still.

TRWTF is thinking Javascript is Java.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

MojoMonkeyfish:
"JSON (JavaScript Object Notation) has been gaining favor"
That's the understatement of the day. From my experience, at least.

XML has a huge overhead, on documents large and small, and is less readable than JSON (not that human readability was actually a design consideration).

Also, "TRWTF is Javascript?" What language were you planning on using for your client side browser scripting again? I mean, it's not my field. I work on server-side, and I don't particularly like Java, but it's hardly a WTF to work with it, especially in this context.

Well, it's not a >WTF to work with it .. but it is a WTF in itself.

Interpreted in so many different ways depending on browser and version, it's a pain in the ass if you expect to just "code" your GUI...

If you ask .. for GUIs Flex is pretty decent, I have yet to see a valid javascript GUI library that has half the features of Flash and less bugs than "the evil battery rapist".

Flash is not very optimized .. but on the other hand JS and DOM are far from being optimized too -- just load a few thousand DOM objects and watch your browser struggle, suffocate and die.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Marnen Laibow-Koser:
Abso:
I talked to someone recently who was extolling the virtues of server-side java script. Well, ok, not so much talked to him as sat in stunned silence while he talked, but still.

And the reason for the stunned silence was...? JavaScript is a much-maligned language, but an extremely powerful one, particularly when you put CoffeeScript on top to make the syntax more pleasant. I'd seriously consider server-side JS/CS for my next Web application; among other things, it means you can share code between server and client more easily (which becomes an issue in certain types of Ajax work).

Right .. Server-side JS . nothing more efficient or safe or ...

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Marnen Laibow-Koser:
Abso:
I suppose because I'm only familiar with client-side JavaScript, which I don't particularly enjoy, and so it's hard for me to see how someone would react to JavaScript by thinking "where else can I use this language?"

I'd wager that you don't particularly enjoy it because, like (at a guess) 98% of people who write client-side JavaScript, you never learned to write it correctly. Not your fault, really; the language has traditionally been marketed in a way that leads people to its weaknesses, not its strengths -- that is, it's been too often used as an extension of HTML, or as an inferior version of Java, rather than the decent language in its own right that it actually is, and the syntax makes some of the best features too hard to use (which is why I recommend CoffeeScript). I'd advise reading some of the stuff at http://www.crockford.com , as well as books like JavaScript: The Definitive Guide (Flanagan) and JavaScript: The Good Parts (Flanagan & Crockford), to get a feel for what the language is really about.

Personally, I was just really dumb lucky to stumble into Crockford's website as I was trying to learn JavaScript...got me started off on the right foot. I claim happy accident here, not personal brilliance.

I also assumed that it wouldn't have as many tools and libraries as more popular server-side languages.

Node.js has become extremely popular, and of course, many of the client-side libraries are already useful on the server side, since the core language is the same.

But I don't do all that much web programming, and the guy I was talking to did talk a lot about how JavaScript is a well-designed language at heart, so I admit I may be wrong to dismiss it out of hand.

I think you are. I've been pretty happy with Ruby on the server for the last few years (and other languages before that), but JS (or rather, CoffeeScript) is definitely a serious contender.

I believe there are a few even slower languages you might be interested in, since obviously you like it when it's slow --

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Worf:
Here on Earth, Winter's just started - it starts on the Winter SOlstice (and ends at the Spring Equinox). But from where you are, your solstice marks the middle of winter...

Really? You must live on a different Earth from a parallel universe then, because here on this Earth winter ends at the [autumn|fall] equinox.

But it's good to know that your universe exists. I may move there prior to this Earth's possible apocalypse in less than a year.

method1 · 2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Kh3pra:
Matt Westwood:
The real WTF is that it's the shortest day of the year, north of the 50th parallel, right in the middle of winter, and I'm sitting here with the window wide open, sweating like a Pee Eye Jee ...

why?

'Cos its around 16 celsius in South-East UK

QJo · 2011-12-23 Reply Admin

method1:
Kh3pra:
Matt Westwood:
The real WTF is that it's the shortest day of the year, north of the 50th parallel, right in the middle of winter, and I'm sitting here with the window wide open, sweating like a Pee Eye Jee ...

why?
'Cos its around 16 celsius in South-East UK

Yes indeed. I found myself thinking just now, walking back from the pub: what lovely cool refreshing rain this is.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

the beholder:
Worf:
Here on Earth, Winter's just started - it starts on the Winter SOlstice (and ends at the Spring Equinox). But from where you are, your solstice marks the middle of winter...
Really? You must live on a different Earth from a parallel universe then, because here on this Earth winter ends at the [autumn|fall] equinox.
But it's good to know that your universe exists. I may move there prior to this Earth's possible apocalypse in less than a year.

Are you Yahoo Serious? On this Earth Winter comes twice a year.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Paul Hogan Mate:
the beholder:
Worf:
Here on Earth, Winter's just started - it starts on the Winter SOlstice (and ends at the Spring Equinox). But from where you are, your solstice marks the middle of winter...
Really? You must live on a different Earth from a parallel universe then, because here on this Earth winter ends at the [autumn|fall] equinox.
But it's good to know that your universe exists. I may move there prior to this Earth's possible apocalypse in less than a year.
Are you Yahoo Serious? On this Earth Winter comes twice a year.

I just noticed I said an impressively stupid thing. I inverted spring and autumn. Forget all about it.

In my defense, I do not live in a temperate zone so the distinction between them is blurry near these parts - not like winter and summer.

hoodaticus · 2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Nag-Geoff:
By all natural laws of computing, a weakly typed language like javascript should have been extinct the minute it came out of the door.

This.

Addendum (2011-12-23 10:57): JavaScript is vaguely-typed though. Not weakly-typed, like C, which in an OO setting would be batshit crazy due to the possibility of a Car.Start() method really calling a Norad.LaunchAllIcbms() method due to weak typing.

JavaScript would at least prevent you from dispatching off a mismatched vtable.

hoodaticus · 2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Please - no more variables/functions names foo and bar:
To quote a book by O'Reilly or regular expressions...
A programmer is trying to solve a problem. She says, "I know, I will use regular expressions.". Now she has .* problems.

FTFY

frits · 2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Pim:
Andrew:
Do tell... maybe I needing later O:-)
What, are you trying to pretend to impersonate a fake Nagesh wannabe? Ghee.

It's Kerbleckistanian. You're new here, aren't you?

hoodaticus · 2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Yeah. Making fun of Nagesh should involve trumpeting your Indian outsourcing firm's certifications while citing your college C professor as some sort of proof against the millenium of programming experience you find on this forum on any given day. With broken English.

Forgot to add:

'Sup frits?

hoodaticus · 2011-12-23 Reply Admin

MojoMonkeyfish:
Also, "TRWTF is Javascript?" What language were you planning on using for your client side browser scripting again?

I use Silverlight for primary deployments and ASP.NET to save me from JS on the mobiles, to the greatest extent possible.

frits · 2011-12-23 Reply Admin

hoodaticus:
'Sup frits?

Hola. It's page 3, so I guess we can get all conversational. Where have you been?

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Dave:
JH:
Now then, let's guess why JSON is popular and ASN.1 isn't.
Just maybe, human readability is more useful than the things ASN.1 is good at.

Yup, because when my mother gets an IJK305I Encoding Error when she clicks "Submit" on her knitting club's web site she immediately fires up Notepad, loads the JSON into it, hand-edits the missing escape character into place, and then uses Firebug to manipulate the data back to the web site. Thank God it's in text mode, because if it was ASN.1 she wouldn't be able to do that.

Your mom doesn't, but the guy looking after the knitting club website may need to on occasion.

When the thing is broken, is it easier to find and fix the problem if you can read the packet in any text editor, or if you have to run it through a binary parser, hoping that the parser can figure out what the hell it is and can give you a useful error message?

Usually of course, the parser you're using to try to find the problem is the same one that the application tried to use, thus you only get a more verbose error description, with no more useful information than the end user did.

In my day job, I support some applications that use various file formats - some binary, some textual.

Guess which files I can usually recover (most of) when an end user calls me to say "My machine crapped out on me, WTF!?", and which I usually cannot.

hoodaticus · 2011-12-23 Reply Admin

frits:
hoodaticus:
'Sup frits?
Hola. It's page 3, so I guess we can get all conversational. Where have you been?

Busy as hell! I actually did like 5 personal death marches and am still recovering from sleep debt.

hoodaticus · 2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Debigger:
Dave:
JH:
Now then, let's guess why JSON is popular and ASN.1 isn't.
Just maybe, human readability is more useful than the things ASN.1 is good at.

Yup, because when my mother gets an IJK305I Encoding Error when she clicks "Submit" on her knitting club's web site she immediately fires up Notepad, loads the JSON into it, hand-edits the missing escape character into place, and then uses Firebug to manipulate the data back to the web site. Thank God it's in text mode, because if it was ASN.1 she wouldn't be able to do that.
Your mom doesn't, but the guy looking after the knitting club website may need to on occasion.

When the thing is broken, is it easier to find and fix the problem if you can read the packet in any text editor, or if you have to run it through a binary parser, hoping that the parser can figure out what the hell it is and can give you a useful error message?

Usually of course, the parser you're using to try to find the problem is the same one that the application tried to use, thus you only get a more verbose error description, with no more useful information than the end user did.

In my day job, I support some applications that use various file formats - some binary, some textual.

Guess which files I can usually recover (most of) when an end user calls me to say "My machine crapped out on me, WTF!?", and which I usually cannot.

She thinks notepad isn't a parser... what a retard!

[only half kidding]

PiisAWheeL · 2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Dogbrags:
snoofle:
I pity the poor, maligned space character. It is generally treated as insignificant in a world of otherwise significant characters.
I salute you, little friend!

DO a google search for the whitespace language. In whitespace, a space character is a first-class citizen.

Ok first off, (after a brief wikipedia article on that) I have a few questions.

How the hell would you debug that shit? I assume you would use non white space to seperate it out for readability but that just sounds like a pain in the ass.
How would you comment that shit? Your comments would have to be bunchedtogetherbecausespacesmakegetinterpeted. You,would,have,to,come,up,with,a,different,seperator. Sounds like a pain in the ass.
If your syntax is ternery (space, tab, and line break), you are basically coding in binary (space=0, tab=1, line break = ";" or end of command). Sounds like a pain in the ass.

(ok so its a joke language i'll stop trolling).

On a more serious note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOLCODE In case you want to code like a 13 Year old girl.

Simon:
pjt33:
Anyone want to open a book on how many people will explain the difference between JS and Java?

Thought about it, but well... it's the last day of the working year, and my motivation to do anything vaguely associated with work is non-existent.

Ok. I'm feeling lazy too, but not lazy enough to not say anything. So I'll oversimplify with an analogy that probably barely applies.

Comparing Java to Javascript is like comparing apples to steak. You can eat both but thats about all they have in common.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Martijn Otto:
The biggest WTF is of course that a space was added after the {. This means the JSON was created manually, instead of using one of the myriad available functions to do exactly that.

One of the advantages of JSON is supposed to be that the format is simple enough that it can be easily read and written by software and also easily read and written by hand. It's not a WTF if someone wrote JSON by hand: it's the exploitation of a design goal.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

DES:
Code Slave:
Be grateful... you could be North of the 50th parallel on the vernal equinox (1st day of spring), with the window frozen shut and afraid that if you go out side an important part of your body might freeze and snap off.

I live smack dab on the 60th, and neither the winter solstice nor the vernal equinox bother me much.

I've heard rumors that people who live further south have a substance that is chemically similar to snow but that exists in a liquid form.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Don:
Matt Westwood:
The real WTF is that it's the shortest day of the year, north of the 50th parallel, right in the middle of winter, and I'm sitting here with the window wide open, sweating like a Pee Eye Jee ...
TRWTF is spelling out the letter "G" using a "J".

Oh, I thought he was trying to spell out "pij", and I had no idea what that meant. Why didn't he just type "pig"? Has the word "pig" been added to the list of politically incorrect words now? What, the National Association of Farm Animals and Domesticated Creatures protested?

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Marnen Laibow-Koser:
JavaScript is a much-maligned language, but an extremely powerful one, particularly when you put CoffeeScript on top to make the syntax more pleasant. I'd seriously consider server-side JS/CS for my next Web application; among other things, it means you can share code between server and client more easily (which becomes an issue in certain types of Ajax work).

That's like saying that drunk driving is a good idea because, (a) alcohol has a powerful effect on the human brain; and (b) it allows you to use the same beverage container both in your vehicle and in a bar.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

PiisAWheeL:
Comparing Java to Javascript is like comparing apples to steak. You can eat both but thats about all they have in common.

Somewhere or other I read, Question: What's the relationship between Java and Javascript? Answer: Their names begin with the same four letters.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Jay:
PiisAWheeL:
Comparing Java to Javascript is like comparing apples to steak. You can eat both but thats about all they have in common.

Somewhere or other I read, Question: What's the relationship between Java and Javascript? Answer: Their names begin with the same four letters.

Java is to Javascript what a car is to a carbuncle.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

the beholder:
Jay:
PiisAWheeL:
Comparing Java to Javascript is like comparing apples to steak. You can eat both but thats about all they have in common.

Somewhere or other I read, Question: What's the relationship between Java and Javascript? Answer: Their names begin with the same four letters.
Java is to Javascript what a car is to a carbuncle.

Edit (if I were logged in): Coincidentally, in both comparisons the first term is something useful in our modern world while the second is a sort of nasty disease.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

I'm wondering how the powers-that-be managed to foist either one of these lies upon us.

if you repeat it enough times it becomes truth; to some people. if some people repeat it enough it becomes truth; to some people. if some people are repeating the same thing, it must be truth; to some people.

some people have all the truthiness!

Matt Westwood · 2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Jay:
Don:
Matt Westwood:
The real WTF is that it's the shortest day of the year, north of the 50th parallel, right in the middle of winter, and I'm sitting here with the window wide open, sweating like a Pee Eye Jee ...
TRWTF is spelling out the letter "G" using a "J".

Oh, I thought he was trying to spell out "pij", and I had no idea what that meant. Why didn't he just type "pig"? Has the word "pig" been added to the list of politically incorrect words now? What, the National Association of Farm Animals and Domesticated Creatures protested?

Because all you cunts complain about my fucking language.

Pee Eye Jay? You fucking illiterate shithead.

Watson · 2011-12-23 Reply Admin

PiisAWheeL:
On a more serious note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOLCODE In case you want to code like a 13 Year old girl.

Sorry, no way to dot the 'i's with little hearts.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

corroded:
Abso:
MojoMonkeyfish:
"JSON (JavaScript Object Notation) has been gaining favor"
That's the understatement of the day. From my experience, at least.

XML has a huge overhead, on documents large and small, and is less readable than JSON (not that human readability was actually a design consideration).

Also, "TRWTF is Javascript?" What language were you planning on using for your client side browser scripting again? I mean, it's not my field. I work on server-side, and I don't particularly like Java, but it's hardly a WTF to work with it, especially in this context.

I talked to someone recently who was extolling the virtues of server-side java script. Well, ok, not so much talked to him as sat in stunned silence while he talked, but still.

TRWTF is thinking Javascript is Java.

Now you just need to write a JVM in Javascript, and a Javascript interpreter in Java, for that complete circular feeling.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Debigger:
Dave:
JH:
Now then, let's guess why JSON is popular and ASN.1 isn't.
Just maybe, human readability is more useful than the things ASN.1 is good at.

Yup, because when my mother gets an IJK305I Encoding Error when she clicks "Submit" on her knitting club's web site she immediately fires up Notepad, loads the JSON into it, hand-edits the missing escape character into place, and then uses Firebug to manipulate the data back to the web site. Thank God it's in text mode, because if it was ASN.1 she wouldn't be able to do that.
Your mom doesn't, but the guy looking after the knitting club website may need to on occasion.

When the thing is broken, is it easier to find and fix the problem if you can read the packet in any text editor, or if you have to run it through a binary parser, hoping that the parser can figure out what the hell it is and can give you a useful error message?

My web site moves upwards of a GB of traffic a day (generalising here, the overall collection of sites of which I deal with a part of one moves that much). If I can halve the amount of data transferred by using a binary format at the cost of having to use a viewer tool every now and then, I'll do it. Sure, being able to use notepad to debug is sometimes convenient (assuming that staring at 300kB of incomprehensible XML text is ever useful in the first place), but it isn't even remotely worth the massive hit you take in data size and throughput.

That's the thing, taken in isolation I'd require that all network protocols use natural-language text because hey, it's easy to debug. However, we're not living in an abstract world but one with real-world constraints, and one of those constraints is that network bandwidth is limited and expensive and processing time is limited and expensive. For that, I'll take a compact, efficient binary protocol and move a GB of it a day, rather than a bloated, inefficient text protocol that I might need to look at in notepad once in a blue moon.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Matt Westwood:
The real WTF is that it's the shortest day of the year, north of the 50th parallel, right in the middle of winter, and I'm sitting here with the window wide open, sweating like a Pee Eye Jee ...

First they took your cricket, now they be changing your weather. The POMS are being Australianised!!

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Pim:
The real WTF is no "Frist". What's with you guys?

Schools out for the summer/winter (depending which sde oif the globe ye be sittin')

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Bobby Tables:
Kivi:
Code Slave:
(actually, it's the 1st day of Winter)
The solstice is midwinter. Winter's only one day long where you live?
Not sure if troll, or just stupid. But the winter solstice is the 1st day of winter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice

Not sure if yank or just stupid - We've been over this here a squillion times (literally ;)) - The yanks have their own view of the world which they blindly follow, somehow believing that the rest of the world agrees.

2011-12-23 Reply Admin

Kivi:
Bobby Tables:
The winter solstice is the 1st day of winter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice

I don't think that page says what you think it says.

See also http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/161/is-it-true-summer-in-ireland-starts-may-1.

Akismet, this is neither spam nor troll...

Wjhat a great article:

"I should emphasize that just because our Irish friends start their summer earlier does not mean Ireland gets warmer earlier. The cruel truth is that it never gets warm in Ireland, which has one of the most dismal climates on earth."

2011-12-24 Reply Admin

Worf:
Matt Westwood:
The real WTF is that it's the shortest day of the year, north of the 50th parallel, right in the middle of winter, and I'm sitting here with the window wide open, sweating like a Pee Eye Jee ...

I'd say Global Warming, but it's obvious you're not on Earth.

Here on Earth, Winter's just started - it starts on the Winter SOlstice (and ends at the Spring Equinox). But from where you are, your solstice marks the middle of winter...

WTF? From everything I've seen, the US (fairly recently) decided (for some inexplicable reason) that they should realign "the start of" [Summer|winter|spring|autumn (or fall)] with the nearest "equinox|solstice" - and now it seems they believe it so mkuch they insist the more traditional way is wrong.....

Matt Westwood · 2011-12-24 Reply Admin

Jo:
Kivi:
Bobby Tables:
The winter solstice is the 1st day of winter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice

I don't think that page says what you think it says.

See also http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/161/is-it-true-summer-in-ireland-starts-may-1.

Akismet, this is neither spam nor troll...
Wjhat a great article:

"I should emphasize that just because our Irish friends start their summer earlier does not mean Ireland gets warmer earlier. The cruel truth is that it never gets warm in Ireland, which has one of the most dismal climates on earth."

The really, really beautiful thing about Ireland is that because of their unique climate, they are free of all those tedious materialists who believe that the purpose of existence is a constant round of personal gratification. That leaves the land full of spiritually alive people who really appreciate the beauty of theire richly green and pleasant land.

Hang on, that line of thought would suggest that Mancunians and Liverpudlians are good people too. Fuck it, back to the drawing board.

Pim · 2011-12-24 Reply Admin

Jay:
Oh, I thought he was trying to spell out "pij", and I had no idea what that meant.

Oh, pij is undoubtedly a real word in some obscure language out there.

Ja, lach maar.

Zemm · 2011-12-24 Reply Admin

Watson:
Worf:
Here in the US, Winter's just started - it starts on the Winter SOlstice (and ends at the Spring Equinox). But from where you are, your solstice marks the middle of winter...
FTFY
Still: having midwinter celebrations at the beginning of winter - makes sense to someone, I suppose. Unless the idea is to make people forget that they're midwinter celebrations.

Also can't say "here on earth it is winter" because I'm on earth and it's summer! I know I'm in the minority but there it is. Santa has been and I'm going to bed.

And pigs don't sweat. So sweating like a pee eye jee means you aren't sweaty at all?

Zecc · 2011-12-24 Reply Admin

Bonbon:
Most embedded systems have regex support, though.

Yup, it's stored where the file system would usually be.

JavaScript JSON Parsing

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