• Nagesh (unregistered) in reply to Meep
    Meep:
    Harold III:
    Boris Vladamir:
    Nagesh:
    This is naturel for most proceses. Once proces is imploding it will show less complex diagram. Once you explode proces, it will get huge, cumbersum and complex.
    Typical American stupidity. I heard story of United States Space Program's engineering of a pen to work in zero gravity whereas the Cosmonauts simply brought pencils!
    I've always found that story odd: people bragging about not being able to engineer something that works in zero gravity? What do you do with the pencil shavings? They didn't have digital pencils back in the '60s.

    Clearly, the Americans are the bright ones in this story, and the Russians are little brighter than the monkeys we sent up.

    Clearly the idiot is someone who thinks they're going to have graphite dust floating around sensitive electronics.

    If well-designed being electronics, they are not to be suffering with dust, graphite or otherwise. Outside condo window every day I see Internet Cafe witnessing smokers ash falling all over laptops. Have never seen these Windows 98 machines being replaced.

  • Your Dad (unregistered) in reply to Boris Vladamir
    Boris Vladamir:
    Nagesh:
    This is naturel for most proceses. Once proces is imploding it will show less complex diagram. Once you explode proces, it will get huge, cumbersum and complex.
    Typical American stupidity. I heard story of United States Space Program's engineering of a pen to work in zero gravity whereas the Cosmonauts simply brought pencils!
    Maybe they would have had time to design an anti-gravity pen if they weren't so busy Russian into space.
  • C-Octothorpe (unregistered) in reply to Nagesh
    Nagesh:
    Boris (fake rusian) you have been outed. so quit posting.

    Pot, meet kettle...

  • (cs) in reply to Nagesh
    Nagesh (fake):
    Meep:
    Harold III:
    Boris Vladamir:
    Nagesh:
    This is naturel for most proceses. Once proces is imploding it will show less complex diagram. Once you explode proces, it will get huge, cumbersum and complex.
    Typical American stupidity. I heard story of United States Space Program's engineering of a pen to work in zero gravity whereas the Cosmonauts simply brought pencils!
    I've always found that story odd: people bragging about not being able to engineer something that works in zero gravity? What do you do with the pencil shavings? They didn't have digital pencils back in the '60s.

    Clearly, the Americans are the bright ones in this story, and the Russians are little brighter than the monkeys we sent up.

    Clearly the idiot is someone who thinks they're going to have graphite dust floating around sensitive electronics.

    If well-designed being electronics, they are not to be suffering with dust, graphite or otherwise. Outside condo window every day I see Internet Cafe witnessing smokers ash falling all over laptops. Have never seen these Windows 98 machines being replaced.

    madarchod!

  • Lv Guy (unregistered)

    Trust me, if this guy did text-based coding, it would look just as bad. If he had any idea how to create subVIs (function) this wouldn't look half bad. This is basically a program with one giant function.

  • Brett Thwaites (unregistered) in reply to notromda
    notromda:
    The Real WTF is Windows.

    Since when is Windows 7 a WTF?

  • Childish (unregistered) in reply to Boris Vladamir
    Boris Vladamir:
    Nagesh:
    This is naturel for most proceses. Once proces is imploding it will show less complex diagram. Once you explode proces, it will get huge, cumbersum and complex.
    Typical American stupidity. I heard story of United States Space Program's engineering of a pen to work in zero gravity whereas the Cosmonauts simply brought pencils!

    The NASA space pen story is false.

  • Harold III, Sr. (unregistered) in reply to Nagesh
    Nagesh:
    Meep:
    Harold III:
    Boris Vladamir:
    Nagesh:
    This is naturel for most proceses. Once proces is imploding it will show less complex diagram. Once you explode proces, it will get huge, cumbersum and complex.
    Typical American stupidity. I heard story of United States Space Program's engineering of a pen to work in zero gravity whereas the Cosmonauts simply brought pencils!
    I've always found that story odd: people bragging about not being able to engineer something that works in zero gravity? What do you do with the pencil shavings? They didn't have digital pencils back in the '60s.

    Clearly, the Americans are the bright ones in this story, and the Russians are little brighter than the monkeys we sent up.

    Clearly the idiot is someone who thinks they're going to have graphite dust floating around sensitive electronics.

    If well-designed being electronics, they are not to be suffering with dust, graphite or otherwise. Outside condo window every day I see Internet Cafe witnessing smokers ash falling all over laptops. Have never seen these Windows 98 machines being replaced.
    Windows 98? Thanks, that explains a lot, Nagesh. Why don't you come back when your people decrease by a couple of worlds?

  • Someone who can't be bothered to login from work (unregistered) in reply to Harold III, Sr.
    Harold III:
    Boris Vladamir:
    Nagesh:
    This is naturel for most proceses. Once proces is imploding it will show less complex diagram. Once you explode proces, it will get huge, cumbersum and complex.
    Typical American stupidity. I heard story of United States Space Program's engineering of a pen to work in zero gravity whereas the Cosmonauts simply brought pencils!
    I've always found that story odd: people bragging about not being able to engineer something that works in zero gravity? What do you do with the pencil shavings? They didn't have digital pencils back in the '60s.

    Clearly, the Americans are the bright ones in this story, and the Russians are little brighter than the monkeys we sent up.

    NASA and the Russians both used pencils to start off with; Fisher actually developed his pens independently and sold them to both the Americans and the Russians after he'd completed his development (although I think the Russians did adopt them later than NASA).

  • Nagesh (unregistered) in reply to Someone who can't be bothered to login from work
    Someone who can't be bothered to login from work:
    Harold III:
    Boris Vladamir:
    Nagesh:
    This is naturel for most proceses. Once proces is imploding it will show less complex diagram. Once you explode proces, it will get huge, cumbersum and complex.
    Typical American stupidity. I heard story of United States Space Program's engineering of a pen to work in zero gravity whereas the Cosmonauts simply brought pencils!
    I've always found that story odd: people bragging about not being able to engineer something that works in zero gravity? What do you do with the pencil shavings? They didn't have digital pencils back in the '60s.

    Clearly, the Americans are the bright ones in this story, and the Russians are little brighter than the monkeys we sent up.

    NASA and the Russians both used pencils to start off with; Fisher actually developed his pens independently and sold them to both the Americans and the Russians after he'd completed his development (although I think the Russians did adopt them later than NASA).

    Why does NASA being employed fisherman for this task?

  • Yair (unregistered) in reply to Steve
    Steve:
    Would some of the LabView evangelists please post screenshots of LabView programs that aren't incomprehensible? I've never seen one before. (That last one by Yair is about the best I've ever encountered).

    Actually, both of those are really bad examples, because they're very dense and messy.

    Here's an example of one of the functions in the project I currently have opened. It doesn't have any comments, but I can tell you that every time you call it like this it adds a line to a log with timing info and error details (if there was an error) and optionally saves the log to a pipe delimited text file.

    [image]

    Like other languages, LabVIEW has advantages and disadvantages. Some of the advantages include:

    1. Easy to get started with.
    2. Automatic memory management (and it had that for almost 25 years). No need to assign variables, etc.
    3. Writing parallel code is extremely easy and is almost unavoidable.
    4. The function shown above, for instance, has two return parameters and could have several more if I wanted it to.

    Some of the disadvantages:

    1. Easy to get started with, so you get untrained users.
    2. Automatic memory management, so your options of controlling memory allocations are limited. Might be an issue under some circumstances.
    3. Writing parallel code is extremely easy. If you don't know what you're doing, you're going to have lots and lots of race conditions.
    4. Working with SCC is a big issue, although recent versions of LabVIEW have improved this somewhat. Basic work (check in, check out, commit, update) is not much of an issue, but diffing and merging are. Again, this is not necessarily an issue, depending on your needs.
  • (cs) in reply to Harold III, Sr.
    Harold III:
    Windows 98? Thanks, that explains a lot, Nagesh. Why don't you come back when your people decrease by a couple of worlds?
    At what point does this kind of stuff get offensive to actual Indians?
  • tragomaskhalos (unregistered)

    I am working on a project that uses a somewhat similar "visual programming" tool for a lot of its functionality. In my experience these things: a) look great in demos to non-technical types (hence sales); b) can be good for cobbling something together quickly; c) become completely and horribly unmanageable if you try to do anything even remotely complex. And since in any non-trivial system (c) will predominate ...

  • iToad (unregistered)

    Unfortunately, most LabVIEW code is written by end users, not programmers. I just inherited a pile of literal spahegetti code from the original author to see if I could clean it up, and eliminate a bunch of race conditions and a mysterious latch-up problem.

    One of the first things that I did was create a concurrent state machine description of the logic, and a text-based specification of what all of the sub VIs did. The original developer was astonished. He didn't realize that you could actually design the software before writing it. I also introduced him to comments.

    Moral of the story: Inheriting a large, badly written VBA application is bad. Inheriting a large, badly written LabVIEW application is very bad.

  • just me (unregistered) in reply to tragomaskhalos
    tragomaskhalos:
    I am working on a project that uses a somewhat similar "visual programming" tool for a lot of its functionality. In my experience these things: a) look great in demos to non-technical types (hence sales); b) can be good for cobbling something together quickly; c) become completely and horribly unmanageable if you try to do anything even remotely complex. And since in any non-trivial system (c) will predominate ...
    c) only if you don't know what you're doing, or if the platform does not provide adequate tools for managing the complexity. LabVIEW does provide these tools (most importantly sub-VIs), so does MaxMSP (sub-patchers).

    The above applies just as well for any text-based languages, so what was your point again?

  • Ganesh (unregistered) in reply to Meep
    HellKarnassus:
    Kiss me I'm Polish:
    Is it actually possible to draw / write clean code in LabView?
    No, it's impossible. When a single boolean or arithmetic operation takes at least three drawings and two wires then you're in for a WTF.
    To get a single wire from a boolean, it has to have only a single possible outcome (making it not really an operation at all)? So what simplification do you propose?
  • (cs) in reply to Nagesh
    Nagesh(fake):
    Someone who can't be bothered to login from work:
    Harold III:
    Boris Vladamir:
    Nagesh:
    This is naturel for most proceses. Once proces is imploding it will show less complex diagram. Once you explode proces, it will get huge, cumbersum and complex.
    Typical American stupidity. I heard story of United States Space Program's engineering of a pen to work in zero gravity whereas the Cosmonauts simply brought pencils!
    I've always found that story odd: people bragging about not being able to engineer something that works in zero gravity? What do you do with the pencil shavings? They didn't have digital pencils back in the '60s.

    Clearly, the Americans are the bright ones in this story, and the Russians are little brighter than the monkeys we sent up.

    NASA and the Russians both used pencils to start off with; Fisher actually developed his pens independently and sold them to both the Americans and the Russians after he'd completed his development (although I think the Russians did adopt them later than NASA).

    Why does NASA being employed fisherman for this task?

    madarchod, everyone in my compny has heard of fisher pen manufactrer.

  • Richard (unregistered)

    Thankfully you can interface to most of the NI devices from C, and you don't need labview at all.

    Incidentally, I have the interesting problem of an NI4462 card which was sold to me a few months ago as being "supported on Linux". This support uses a nasty binary blob kernel driver that is only available for distros about 4 years old (eg Mandrake 2008). Not impressed

  • Anonymous (unregistered)

    I'm not really seeing the WTF here, any sufficiently complex LabView system ends up looking like that. Unless the WTF is LabView itself, in which case I wholeheartedly agree.

  • (cs) in reply to frits
    frits:
    Harold III:
    Windows 98? Thanks, that explains a lot, Nagesh. Why don't you come back when your people decrease by a couple of worlds?
    At what point does this kind of stuff get offensive to actual Indians?
    Kind of a tree falling in the woods question, don't you think? If someone insults India and no actual Indians are around to hear it, are they offended?
  • (cs) in reply to boog
    boog:
    frits:
    Harold III:
    Windows 98? Thanks, that explains a lot, Nagesh. Why don't you come back when your people decrease by a couple of worlds?
    At what point does this kind of stuff get offensive to actual Indians?
    Kind of a tree falling in the woods question, don't you think? If someone insults India and no actual Indians are around to hear it, are they offended?

    मादरचोद, तुम खुद को क्या सम्ह्जते हो?

  • tragomaskhalos (unregistered) in reply to just me
    just me:
    tragomaskhalos:
    I am working on a project that uses a somewhat similar "visual programming" tool for a lot of its functionality. In my experience these things: a) look great in demos to non-technical types (hence sales); b) can be good for cobbling something together quickly; c) become completely and horribly unmanageable if you try to do anything even remotely complex. And since in any non-trivial system (c) will predominate ...
    c) only if you don't know what you're doing, or if the platform does not provide adequate tools for managing the complexity. LabVIEW does provide these tools (most importantly sub-VIs), so does MaxMSP (sub-patchers).

    The above applies just as well for any text-based languages, so what was your point again?

    In the case of the product we are using, it does not provide adequate tools, no - in LabVIEW, which I've not used, YMMD. For example on our project I have reimplemented a big wodge of it in Ruby - goodbye to unwieldy tangled and deeply nested diagrams, hello to succinct DSL-style notation with all the gubbins hidden away. This is the proper way to manage complexity, and is what a properly utilised text-based language will give you.

    Nor does point (a) apply to text-based languages - a big score for visual programming tools in the sales and marketing area is that they are pretty and colourful and allow for an easy sell of the seductive myth that non-programmers can use the thing, but what looks good in demos can quickly unravel in real use.

  • Anonymous (unregistered) in reply to Nagesh
    Nagesh:
    boog:
    frits:
    Harold III:
    Windows 98? Thanks, that explains a lot, Nagesh. Why don't you come back when your people decrease by a couple of worlds?
    At what point does this kind of stuff get offensive to actual Indians?
    Kind of a tree falling in the woods question, don't you think? If someone insults India and no actual Indians are around to hear it, are they offended?

    मादरचोद, तुम खुद को क्या सम्ह्जते हो?

    Your handwriting sucks, I can't make out a word of that.

  • (cs) in reply to boog
    boog:
    frits:
    Harold III:
    Windows 98? Thanks, that explains a lot, Nagesh. Why don't you come back when your people decrease by a couple of worlds?
    At what point does this kind of stuff get offensive to actual Indians?
    Kind of a tree falling in the woods question, don't you think? If someone insults India and no actual Indians are around to hear it, are they offended?
    I am Indian only.
  • (cs) in reply to Anonymous
    Anonymous:
    Nagesh:
    boog:
    frits:
    Harold III:
    Windows 98? Thanks, that explains a lot, Nagesh. Why don't you come back when your people decrease by a couple of worlds?
    At what point does this kind of stuff get offensive to actual Indians?
    Kind of a tree falling in the woods question, don't you think? If someone insults India and no actual Indians are around to hear it, are they offended?

    मादरचोद, तुम खुद को क्या सम्ह्जते हो?

    Your handwriting sucks, I can't make out a word of that.

    पहले हिंदी सीखो बच्चे!

  • (cs) in reply to Nagesh
    Nagesh:
    boog:
    frits:
    Harold III:
    Windows 98? Thanks, that explains a lot, Nagesh. Why don't you come back when your people decrease by a couple of worlds?
    At what point does this kind of stuff get offensive to actual Indians?
    Kind of a tree falling in the woods question, don't you think? If someone insults India and no actual Indians are around to hear it, are they offended?

    मादरचोद, तुम खुद को क्या सम्ह्जते हो?

    मैं माफी चाहता हूँ. मैं हिंदी बोलते नहीं.

  • Boris Vladamir (unregistered) in reply to Nagesh
    Nagesh:
    Anonymous:
    Nagesh:
    boog:
    frits:
    Harold III:
    Windows 98? Thanks, that explains a lot, Nagesh. Why don't you come back when your people decrease by a couple of worlds?
    At what point does this kind of stuff get offensive to actual Indians?
    Kind of a tree falling in the woods question, don't you think? If someone insults India and no actual Indians are around to hear it, are they offended?

    मादरचोद, तुम खुद को क्या सम्ह्जते हो?

    Your handwriting sucks, I can't make out a word of that.

    पहले हिंदी सीखो बच्चे!

    Дизайн то, что является надежной, и мир будет просто производить лучше дурак.

  • (cs) in reply to boog
    boog:
    frits:
    Harold III:
    Windows 98? Thanks, that explains a lot, Nagesh. Why don't you come back when your people decrease by a couple of worlds?
    At what point does this kind of stuff get offensive to actual Indians?
    Kind of a tree falling in the woods question, don't you think? If someone insults India and no actual Indians are around to hear it, are they offended?

    I think you could make just as sound an argument that no black people are reading this site. Why not go there?

  • Nagesh (unregistered) in reply to Boris Vladamir
    Boris Vladamir:
    Nagesh:
    Anonymous:
    Nagesh:
    boog:
    frits:
    Harold III:
    Windows 98? Thanks, that explains a lot, Nagesh. Why don't you come back when your people decrease by a couple of worlds?
    At what point does this kind of stuff get offensive to actual Indians?
    Kind of a tree falling in the woods question, don't you think? If someone insults India and no actual Indians are around to hear it, are they offended?

    मादरचोद, तुम खुद को क्या सम्ह्जते हो?

    Your handwriting sucks, I can't make out a word of that.

    पहले हिंदी सीखो बच्चे!

    Дизайн то, что является надежной, и мир будет просто производить лучше дурак.
    I am not to be spaking the Chinese! Talk clearly, manglerod!

  • (cs) in reply to Boris Vladamir
    Boris Vladamir:
    Nagesh:
    Anonymous:
    Nagesh:
    boog:
    frits:
    Harold III:
    Windows 98? Thanks, that explains a lot, Nagesh. Why don't you come back when your people decrease by a couple of worlds?
    At what point does this kind of stuff get offensive to actual Indians?
    Kind of a tree falling in the woods question, don't you think? If someone insults India and no actual Indians are around to hear it, are they offended?

    मादरचोद, तुम खुद को क्या सम्ह्जते हो?

    Your handwriting sucks, I can't make out a word of that.

    पहले हिंदी सीखो बच्चे!

    Дизайн то, что является надежной, и мир будет просто производить лучше дурак.

    I'm tired of these MF'n eels in this MF'n hovercraft!

  • (cs) in reply to Nagesh
    Nagesh:
    boog:
    frits:
    At what point does this kind of stuff get offensive to actual Indians?
    Kind of a tree falling in the woods question, don't you think? If someone insults India and no actual Indians are around to hear it, are they offended?
    I am Indian only.
    That's highly unlikely.
  • just me (unregistered) in reply to tragomaskhalos
    tragomaskhalos:
    ... the seductive myth that non-programmers can use the thing...

    Yes, there's your problem right there.

  • C-Octothorpe (unregistered) in reply to boog
    boog:
    Nagesh:
    boog:
    frits:
    At what point does this kind of stuff get offensive to actual Indians?
    Kind of a tree falling in the woods question, don't you think? If someone insults India and no actual Indians are around to hear it, are they offended?
    I am Indian only.
    That's highly unlikely.

    Racist!

    What? Am I doing it wrong?

  • Yair (unregistered) in reply to Anonymous
    Anonymous:
    any sufficiently complex LabView system ends up looking like that.

    Not "any". "Many". If it's written well, it doesn't look like that, regardless of how complex it is.

  • (cs) in reply to frits
    frits:
    boog:
    frits:
    Harold III:
    Windows 98? Thanks, that explains a lot, Nagesh. Why don't you come back when your people decrease by a couple of worlds?
    At what point does this kind of stuff get offensive to actual Indians?
    Kind of a tree falling in the woods question, don't you think? If someone insults India and no actual Indians are around to hear it, are they offended?

    I think you could make just as sound an argument that no black people are reading this site. Why not go there?

    Fine, I'll go there: If someone insults black people and no black people are around to hear it, are they offended? Technically, no, but that doesn't make it okay, and it doesn't mean anyone else can't be offended too.

    Did you think I was advocating comments offensive to Indians?

  • wakaw (unregistered) in reply to Peter

    Yeah, like CERN.

  • Al (unregistered) in reply to just me

    By the way, is it possible to avoid creation of new file for every function (subVI). I understand that it's not inherently evil, but it just freaks me out a little.

  • Meep (unregistered) in reply to boog
    boog:
    frits:
    Harold III:
    Windows 98? Thanks, that explains a lot, Nagesh. Why don't you come back when your people decrease by a couple of worlds?
    At what point does this kind of stuff get offensive to actual Indians?
    Kind of a tree falling in the woods question, don't you think? If someone insults India and no actual Indians are around to hear it, are they offended?

    Yeah, last I heard, the actual Indians were off whining to Congress about how the Bin Laden's code name was Geronimo.

  • Steve (unregistered) in reply to Yair

    Thanks Yair, that's what I was looking for. Nice breakdown on the advantages/disadvantages too.

  • (cs) in reply to boog
    boog:
    frits:
    boog:
    frits:
    Harold III:
    Windows 98? Thanks, that explains a lot, Nagesh. Why don't you come back when your people decrease by a couple of worlds?
    At what point does this kind of stuff get offensive to actual Indians?
    Kind of a tree falling in the woods question, don't you think? If someone insults India and no actual Indians are around to hear it, are they offended?

    I think you could make just as sound an argument that no black people are reading this site. Why not go there?

    Fine, I'll go there: If someone insults black people and no black people are around to hear it, are they offended? Technically, no, but that doesn't make it okay, and it doesn't mean anyone else can't be offended too.

    Did you think I was advocating comments offensive to Indians?

    You may want to at least delete the context if you're going to write something silly.

  • (cs) in reply to Meep
    Meep:
    boog:
    frits:
    Harold III:
    Windows 98? Thanks, that explains a lot, Nagesh. Why don't you come back when your people decrease by a couple of worlds?
    At what point does this kind of stuff get offensive to actual Indians?
    Kind of a tree falling in the woods question, don't you think? If someone insults India and no actual Indians are around to hear it, are they offended?

    Yeah, last I heard, the actual Indians were off whining to Congress about how the Bin Laden's code name was Geronimo.

    Is that where Hoodaticus has been?

  • BentFranklin (unregistered)

    In that Snopes article, they twice refer to 100% oxygen atmosphere. Really? 100%? That doesn't seem right. Anyone know this for sure?

  • alegr (unregistered) in reply to Boris Vladamir
    Boris Vladamir:
    Дизайн то, что является надежной, и мир будет просто производить лучше дурак.
    Somebody has too much trust to Google translator...
  • Anon (unregistered) in reply to Herbert
    Herbert:
    Great. So some people write ugly code in LabVIEW code. Can you find a language that a dedicated programmer *couldn't* write ugly code in with sufficient determination?

    The difference is, in LabVIEW, it's impossible not to write ugly code.

  • Yair (unregistered) in reply to Al
    Al:
    By the way, is it possible to avoid creation of new file for every function (subVI). I understand that it's not inherently evil, but it just freaks me out a little.

    Not that this is the place for it, but the answer is no, at least not in the way you want it. LV has two file types which allow saving several VIs inside a single file, but I'm pretty sure that's not what you're after, since you would still need to do all the creation of the VI, etc.

    But it's not a big deal. You get used to it.

  • (cs) in reply to frits
    frits:
    You may want to at least delete the context if you're going to write something silly.
    Duly noted. From now on I'll try to be serious about making silly comments.
  • r2k-in-the-vortex (unregistered)

    ah the good ol labview, the very first software project i was tasked to finish looked pretty much like that, in fact first thing i suspected when i opened the artice that it actually was that project. labview has its strong points but they dont lie in making large and complicated applications. its for pretty much what the name says its for, quickly tying together a lab setup by someone who is not nessecarily a programmer. pretty much any measurement equipment comes with labview drivers so for lab technicians its very simple to coordinate many instruments with quick hack of a labview. unfortunately it sometimes also gets used for lot more complicated things and then it ends up like that. it can be a horrorshow

  • Anon (unregistered)

    Ah...I hate LabVIEW with a passion. Note that until a few years ago, you couldn't even comment out a portion of your code in LabVIEW, you had to disconnect the "wires" manually, tie together any that couldn't be left dangling, and then when you wanted to put it back in, you'd have to try and remember all the connections you removed so you can put them back again. Also, the GUIs generated by LabVIEW are the ugliest things you've ever seen. They may have looked slick in Windows 3.1, but now they look horribly dated with no real easy options to make it look modern. We had a horrible LabVIEW software for a propriety device we developed that looked like shit and ran like it too. I scrapped it and wrote a new software in C# using WPF and now it looks awesome, modern and gets rid of all the stupid GUI baggage that came from LabVIEW.

  • Vaca Loca (unregistered)

    Note to self: Do not read the comments section of a WTF until 2 days after said article has posted and subsequent comment purge has occurred.

  • undefined (unregistered) in reply to Boris Vladamir
    Boris Vladamir:
    Дизайн то, что является надежной, и мир будет просто производить лучше дурак.

    1. You can not to use on-line automatic translation to produce correct russian sentences.

    2. There are no middle names in Russian, we use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic#Russian

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