• Schnapple (unregistered) in reply to pitchingchris
    pitchingchris:
    Schnapple:
    Thomas B. had just said at the end "Hey, I'm going to be honest here. We can't hire you because you don't already have the skills we're looking for and you're up against five other people who do. However, I can tell you're eager to learn. I would recommend that you learn on your own - PHP is free, there's tons of resources on the web for HTML and CSS, and so forth. Go make a website on your own, or make one for a friend's business or something. You'll find out really quick if this is the sort of thing for you or not. And if you're really serious about this you can get a job doing it - someone out there will take a chance on you and from there you're good. You clearly have the ambition, you just need the training. Sorry it didn't work out here."

    This almost made me laugh. Because you can bet your bottom dollar if this really happened, we'd have a lot more stuff on TDWTF. I'm not saying that people can't be self-taught programmers, but without enough guidance and education behind it, it would take much longer to hone certain skills required.

    Well obviously being self taught is usually less desirable than someone with guidance and education, but this person sounded like she might actually have what it takes to learn this sort of thing, especially for such a low-requirement position.

    And yeah there's a good chance that this person would probably go "oh fuck this stuff is hard nevermind" and move on. But she didn't seem to me to be one of those people to scam their way through jobs they're not cut out for.

  • Just Some Guy (unregistered) in reply to David W
    David W:
    1) The software is unlikely to globally synchronise all its clients (seeing how extremely difficult this is to accomplish), sending updates at exactly minute-intervals. So it's more likely to be spread out, i.e. 0.28m/sec.

    Correct. I assumed 1,000,000 messages averaged over a minute (~17K messages per second).

    2) How did he come up with his message size solely from the interview info? Seems he thinks the update message would be about 17 bytes. Which is 23 bytes smaller than a minimal IP+TCP header.

    Assuming a 1KB payload, 1,000,000*1024/60 gives you about 17 MB/s (I'm pretty sure I said MB and not Mb in the submission, but maybe I mistyped that).

  • Not Wtf (unregistered)

    So what? These stories are stupid, and the comments are even worse.

  • anon (unregistered)

    As an aside - the original comment (from the gal who hand flailed and faked) was hilarious. I'm assuming TopCod3r - right? Very nicely done - people took it seriously and responded, despite the subtle innuendo. Very nice

  • Beldar the Phantom Replier (unregistered) in reply to Not Wtf

    Now, if only there were a Cod3r around here that could inject some humor into this thread, I might not think that my time reading the article and comments weren't wasted.

  • some guy (unregistered) in reply to Franz_Kafka
    Franz_Kafka:
    Sure, you can be a good programmer and look like a sorostitute, but then you'd be able to list some sort of experience in the field, wouldn't you?

    You know, I'm getting real tired of that word. Surely as an "intelligent" person, you don't have to resort to petty stereotypical insults.

    People like you really do make me ashamed of my gender.

  • (cs) in reply to Schnapple
    Schnapple:
    Well obviously being self taught is usually less desirable than someone with guidance and education, but this person sounded like she might actually have what it takes to learn this sort of thing, especially for such a low-requirement position.

    And yeah there's a good chance that this person would probably go "oh fuck this stuff is hard nevermind" and move on. But she didn't seem to me to be one of those people to scam their way through jobs they're not cut out for.

    So what? There are 5 other candidates more qualified - why pick the unqualified go getter?

    some guy:
    Franz_Kafka:
    Sure, you can be a good programmer and look like a sorostitute, but then you'd be able to list some sort of experience in the field, wouldn't you?

    You know, I'm getting real tired of that word. Surely as an "intelligent" person, you don't have to resort to petty stereotypical insults.

    People like you really do make me ashamed of my gender.

    What stereotypical insults? I said that if she was qualified, she'd be able to list some experience regardless of how she looked.

  • Dennis (unregistered) in reply to Chi1x0r
    Chi1x0r:
    because computer science as a college major is only about 15 years old

    When you change your clocks this weekend as daylight saving time ends, assuming you're in the U.S., don't forget to reset your calendar since yours seems to be waaaaay off.

  • Trevor D'Arcy-Evans (unregistered) in reply to operagost

    I heard about a person who used to send in two identical resumes for a job. One was in a foreign name and the other was an English name. If he was only interviewed under the English name, he used to sue for discrimination. Most companies used to settle out of court.

  • PublicLurker (unregistered) in reply to Chi1x0r
    Chi1x0r:
    ... because computer science as a college major is only about 15 years old...

    Funny, I received my degree in 87, and I'm fairly certain that the program existed before I started.

  • Steve (unregistered) in reply to jaded contractor
    jaded contractor:
    Steve:
    I guess you can't blame a gal for trying.

    Sometimes enthusiasm and a willingness to learn will make up for a whole lot of experience and qualifications.

    I can say that for the last several jobs I've had, on paper I probably was not "qualified", not having the proper letters following my name or even a whole lot of domain experience.

    . . .

    I wouldn't want a job that I was qualified for. That would be boring.

    Yes - I've seen the stuff you leave behind that you produced while learning on the job - sheesh...

    I doubt it.

    For me, learning is part of the job and I'm grateful for the tolerance and understanding of all my employers as I learned to make a contribution.

    Perhaps I'm something of a "corner case" or outlier, since I've worked in an academic research lab setting since the first time I was invited by the chief engineer (a moonlighting EE professor) of a radio station I was working at to apply for a programmers job in his lab because, he said, I was the only dj he knew who was "capable of reading a meter".

    Fortunately, working in research, nobody else knows exactly what they're doing either. . . otherwise it wouldn't be research.

    Other than that rather dubious talent and some decade old college programming courses, I was unskilled, untrained, and initially totally out of my depth.

    Eventually, after some rocky moments where, to be honest, I probably should have been let go, it managed to click for me.

    Every job since then I can say that I've been under-qualified but my enthusiasm and willingness to learn have carried me through, I believe successfully.

    It's odd but in my experience, some of the most "qualified" people we've hired in the 18 some years I've been in my current position have turned out to be total duds, incapable of adapting to the research life and some of the least (on paper) qualified but enthusiastic and intellectually curious folks have turned out to be the greatest contributors. Some have gone on to make significant contributions in the field.

  • Steve (unregistered)

    By the way, the line about "you can't blame a gal for trying" was somewhat tongue in cheek. I guess in these days of LOLs and :-)s mild exaggeration for humorous intent is lost.

    . . . and, oh, yeah, I'm not a gal. Last I looked, anyhow.

  • Yanman.be (unregistered) in reply to Trevor D'Arcy-Evans
    Trevor D'Arcy-Evans:
    I heard about a person who used to send in two identical resumes for a job. One was in a foreign name and the other was an English name. If he was only interviewed under the English name, he used to sue for discrimination. Most companies used to settle out of court.

    Oh man, that's a great idea...Can't wait to use that trick on my own!

  • Steve (unregistered) in reply to Steve
    Steve:
    . . .and some of the least (on paper) qualified but enthusiastic and intellectually curious folks have turned out to be the greatest contributors. . . .
    Oops.

    That should read "unqualified but enthusiastic. . ."

  • (cs) in reply to Steve

    But if "some of the least unqualified but enthusiastic and intellectually curious folks have turned out to be the greatest contributors", that's hardly worth a mention, is it?

  • OhDear (unregistered) in reply to jaded contractor

    I shiver to think about some of the code that I left behind while learning on the job.

  • Bob (unregistered)

    I never learn on the job. And I never write code until I know how to write it. I expect I'll be writing code any moment now, just as soon as I've finished learning. But until I've learned enough that I won't make mistakes and leave bad code behind, I don't know enough.

  • :) (unregistered) in reply to pitchingchris
    pitchingchris:
    Schnapple:
    Thomas B. had just said at the end "Hey, I'm going to be honest here. We can't hire you because you don't already have the skills we're looking for and you're up against five other people who do. However, I can tell you're eager to learn. I would recommend that you learn on your own - PHP is free, there's tons of resources on the web for HTML and CSS, and so forth. Go make a website on your own, or make one for a friend's business or something. You'll find out really quick if this is the sort of thing for you or not. And if you're really serious about this you can get a job doing it - someone out there will take a chance on you and from there you're good. You clearly have the ambition, you just need the training. Sorry it didn't work out here."

    This almost made me laugh. Because you can bet your bottom dollar if this really happened, we'd have a lot more stuff on TDWTF. I'm not saying that people can't be self-taught programmers, but without enough guidance and education behind it, it would take much longer to hone certain skills required.

    I am a self taught programmer, have been coding since the age of 12. Since when do you need someone to teach you in order to be good, there are these wonderful things out there called books. And strangely they are mostly written by people who know what they are talking about. I also run rings around most programmers that I have met who have some sort of degree, both in quality, and quantity of work done.

    Besides, how do you think these "best practise" programming techniques came to be, heaven forbid someone sat down and thought of them, instead of being told them by another person.

  • Steve (unregistered) in reply to Ilya Ehrenburg
    Ilya Ehrenburg:
    But if "some of the least unqualified but enthusiastic and intellectually curious folks have turned out to be the greatest contributors", that's hardly worth a mention, is it?
    I'm going to have to stop posting until I get my eyes examined.

    Not to mention getting my whole head examined.

    Good night!

  • Engywuck (unregistered) in reply to Just Some Guy

    Well, you ass-u-me a 1KB packet every minute....

    For "updates" that just say "nothing changed, just update screen" I think a 1 byte of payload is sufficient, say a 64 Byte packet "on wire" (minimum ethernet packet size, minimum UDP packet size would be 30 bytes or so), so you get a minimum of

    1000000648/60=ca. 8.5 MBit/s

    Since a T-1 is 24 ISDN lines or 1.544 MBit/s that's still way above the line... at least a T-3 would now be enough :)

    But an even bigger WTF would be to use TCP connections there: either you'd need to have a million "connections" open an your computer/router (good luck with the TCP stack) or you'd need to reopen the connection every minute, upping you bandwidth needs even more...

  • (cs)

    Ah, equality. You're only allowed to dislike white males. Otherwise you're racist and/or sexist. Brillant!

  • SomeCoder (unregistered) in reply to lolwtf
    lolwtf:
    Ah, equality. You're only allowed to dislike white males. Otherwise you're racist and/or sexist. Brillant!

    This is very, very true. I am 100% for equality but can we also have equality for hatred? :P

  • Just Some Guy (unregistered) in reply to Engywuck
    Engywuck:
    Well, you ass-u-me a 1KB packet every minute....

    For "updates" that just say "nothing changed, just update screen" I think a 1 byte of payload is sufficient, say a 64 Byte packet "on wire" (minimum ethernet packet size, minimum UDP packet size would be 30 bytes or so), so you get a minimum of

    1000000648/60=ca. 8.5 MBit/s

    Since a T-1 is 24 ISDN lines or 1.544 MBit/s that's still way above the line... at least a T-3 would now be enough :)

    But an even bigger WTF would be to use TCP connections there: either you'd need to have a million "connections" open an your computer/router (good luck with the TCP stack) or you'd need to reopen the connection every minute, upping you bandwidth needs even more...

    The interview was probably about 6 years ago and I don't remember all the details, but the packets were stateless (as in, each packet communicated the whole state and not a delta from the previous packet). That was to ease load on the database. I'm about 90% sure it was TCP, too.

    Really, it was this bad. When I dropped some back-of-envelope numbers, the engineering team members gave each other a bunch of panicked looks and left the interview. My wife asked that I please not spend my next interview telling the employer how their plan will never work, but I figured they're theoretically hiring me to be skeptical enough to catch these details. If that's a turn-off, then I probably wouldn't be a good fit anyway.

  • Vincenzo (unregistered)

    Magazine subscription updates are a great idea. I subscribe to a dozen magazines on various subjects, all started at different times of the year - so I really appreciate the annual email I get a month before expiration as a reminder....

  • ChiefCrazyTalk (unregistered) in reply to PublicLurker
    PublicLurker:
    Chi1x0r:
    ... because computer science as a college major is only about 15 years old...

    Funny, I received my degree in 87, and I'm fairly certain that the program existed before I started.

    My freshman roomate in 1982 was a CS Major - had to learn Lisp his first year, while us mechanical engineers learned APL.

  • Franz Kafka (unregistered) in reply to Just Some Guy
    Just Some Guy:
    Really, it was this bad. When I dropped some back-of-envelope numbers, the engineering team members gave each other a bunch of panicked looks and left the interview. My wife asked that I please not spend my next interview telling the employer how their plan will never work, but I figured they're theoretically hiring me to be skeptical enough to catch these details. If that's a turn-off, then I probably wouldn't be a good fit anyway.

    That's worth the price of admission right there - if I were in that position, I'd hope that I'd hire you on to make the project viable.

    Also, TCP with client init solves a raft of annoying NAT style problems. UDP is nice, but harder to deal with across a broad range of nontechnical users.

  • Tenseiga (unregistered)

    I dont know how to write a comment yet but im a really fast learner! Uncrosses legs Crosses legs

  • (cs) in reply to Trevor D'Arcy-Evans
    Trevor D'Arcy-Evans:
    I heard about a person who used to send in two identical resumes for a job. One was in a foreign name and the other was an English name. If he was only interviewed under the English name, he used to sue for discrimination. Most companies used to settle out of court.

    I call "made-up-story", unless you can provide a source better than "I heard about".

    1. If the CVs were IDENTICAL apart from the name, then even the worst HR department would be able to spot this (hopefully).

    2. If they weren't identical then the company would have claimed that it was something to do with the style/presentation/layout/whatever that made them make the decision.

  • Vollhorst (unregistered) in reply to Mr B
    Mr B:
    Trevor D'Arcy-Evans:
    I heard about a person who used to send in two identical resumes for a job. One was in a foreign name and the other was an English name. If he was only interviewed under the English name, he used to sue for discrimination. Most companies used to settle out of court.

    I call "made-up-story", unless you can provide a source better than "I heard about".

    1. If the CVs were IDENTICAL apart from the name, then even the worst HR department would be able to spot this (hopefully).

    2. If they weren't identical then the company would have claimed that it was something to do with the style/presentation/layout/whatever that made them make the decision.

    More likely the company would sue him cause he forged(?) the documents of his fake resume. I bet no company would like to hire such an asshole/criminal.

  • yah (unregistered) in reply to Franz_Kafka
    Franz_Kafka:
    Schnapple:
    Well obviously being self taught is usually less desirable than someone with guidance and education, but this person sounded like she might actually have what it takes to learn this sort of thing, especially for such a low-requirement position.

    And yeah there's a good chance that this person would probably go "oh fuck this stuff is hard nevermind" and move on. But she didn't seem to me to be one of those people to scam their way through jobs they're not cut out for.

    So what? There are 5 other candidates more qualified - why pick the unqualified go getter?

    some guy:
    Franz_Kafka:
    Sure, you can be a good programmer and look like a sorostitute, but then you'd be able to list some sort of experience in the field, wouldn't you?

    You know, I'm getting real tired of that word. Surely as an "intelligent" person, you don't have to resort to petty stereotypical insults.

    People like you really do make me ashamed of my gender.

    What stereotypical insults? I said that if she was qualified, she'd be able to list some experience regardless of how she looked.

    Yes - can we please have non-stereotypical insults. The more offensive the better.

  • (cs) in reply to Chi1x0r
    Chi1x0r:
    Many of my older peers did just this, because computer science as a college major is only about 15 years old
    In the UK, Computer Science as a separate discipline really took off in 1964, making it 45 years old next year, with the first undergraduate courses starting in the following year. But maybe it took 30 years for computers to be shipped by mule-train into your neck of the woods…
  • (cs) in reply to dkf
    dkf:
    Chi1x0r:
    Many of my older peers did just this, because computer science as a college major is only about 15 years old
    In the UK, Computer Science as a separate discipline really took off in 1964, making it 45 years old next year, with the first undergraduate courses starting in the following year. But maybe it took 30 years for computers to be shipped by mule-train into your neck of the woods…
    I wasn't around in 1965, but I'm pretty sure they weren't teaching C#, Java, PHP or any other language 90% of the industry will look for today.
  • Morfildur (unregistered) in reply to DOA

    You haven't heard of DateTime.Travel() yet?

  • (cs) in reply to DOA
    DOA:
    dkf:
    Chi1x0r:
    Many of my older peers did just this, because computer science as a college major is only about 15 years old
    In the UK, Computer Science as a separate discipline really took off in 1964, making it 45 years old next year, with the first undergraduate courses starting in the following year. But maybe it took 30 years for computers to be shipped by mule-train into your neck of the woods…
    I wasn't around in 1965, but I'm pretty sure they weren't teaching C#, Java, PHP or any other language 90% of the industry will look for today.

    That's really interesting, but I don't see what language specifics has to do with a Comp Sci degree. The key to a GOOD Comp Sci degree is that it is largely language independent and gives the graduate the tools and skills necessary to learn new languages as they are created. If you did a Comp Sci degree and all you know is Java and you don't have the skills to pick up new languages, then it's not really a good degree to have is it?

    What language would you have been taught 2 years ago? C# 2.0? Guess what, that's out of date BEFORE YOU HAVE GRADUATED.

    Comp Sci degrees should NEVER focus on specifics of either hardware OR software, it's changing too rapidly, and chances are that it will have moved on WHILST YOU ARE STUDYING THEM.

    I was taught programming concepts using COBOL and Smalltalk (yes I'm old) and somehow amazingly I've been able to pick up both C# and Java, amazing huh!

  • derby (unregistered) in reply to Franz_Kafka
    Franz_Kafka:
    What programming skills? she was a stay at home mother with no background in programming, and she didn't spend any of her 7-8 hours/day learning those skills.

    Wowzy ... spoken like a single guy or a married guy who one day is going to find himself laying on the floor with a big welt on his forehead while his wife, the mother of his children, stands over him with a blunt instrument in her hand muttering 'for the last time, just because I'm at home all day doesn't mean I don't work.'

  • (cs) in reply to derby
    derby:
    Franz_Kafka:
    What programming skills? she was a stay at home mother with no background in programming, and she didn't spend any of her 7-8 hours/day learning those skills.

    Wowzy ... spoken like a single guy or a married guy who one day is going to find himself laying on the floor with a big welt on his forehead while his wife, the mother of his children, stands over him with a blunt instrument in her hand muttering 'for the last time, just because I'm at home all day doesn't mean I don't work.'

    ...spoken like a guy who doesn't actually read before replying.

    He didn't say that she didn't work, just that she didn't spend the time learning those skills. Presumably she spent the time doing other, more important things.

  • (cs) in reply to Mr B
    Mr B:
    DOA:
    dkf:
    Chi1x0r:
    Many of my older peers did just this, because computer science as a college major is only about 15 years old
    In the UK, Computer Science as a separate discipline really took off in 1964, making it 45 years old next year, with the first undergraduate courses starting in the following year. But maybe it took 30 years for computers to be shipped by mule-train into your neck of the woods…
    I wasn't around in 1965, but I'm pretty sure they weren't teaching C#, Java, PHP or any other language 90% of the industry will look for today.

    That's really interesting, but I don't see what language specifics has to do with a Comp Sci degree. The key to a GOOD Comp Sci degree is that it is largely language independent and gives the graduate the tools and skills necessary to learn new languages as they are created. If you did a Comp Sci degree and all you know is Java and you don't have the skills to pick up new languages, then it's not really a good degree to have is it?

    What language would you have been taught 2 years ago? C# 2.0? Guess what, that's out of date BEFORE YOU HAVE GRADUATED.

    Comp Sci degrees should NEVER focus on specifics of either hardware OR software, it's changing too rapidly, and chances are that it will have moved on WHILST YOU ARE STUDYING THEM.

    I was taught programming concepts using COBOL and Smalltalk (yes I'm old) and somehow amazingly I've been able to pick up both C# and Java, amazing huh!

    Uhm... yeah, that's my point, you need to learn new stuff to keep up. A CS degree from the 60s means nothing by itself.

  • VP (unregistered) in reply to pitchingchris
    pitchingchris:
    This almost made me laugh. Because you can bet your bottom dollar if this really happened, we'd have a lot more stuff on TDWTF. I'm not saying that people can't be self-taught programmers, but without enough guidance and education behind it, it would take much longer to hone certain skills required.
    Plain and utter bs.

    What except algorithms and general programming concepts is taught in college and university today? Not much. Some of my closest mates and old classmates from compsci (which I dropped out of after a year) got bachelors or masters and work as programmers. Sufficient to say only one of them is actually any good and adapt at several languages.

    Except for senior positions today the only thing I can see required (for C#, java, php, asp.net etc) is usually understanding the concepts behind those kind of languages (generics/templates/oop blahblah) and a basic understanding of patterns.

    One of my closest mates did bachelor compsci, was mostly java and some C++. He's gotten two great paying jobs since he got his degree but I'm pretty sure he's not one I'd like to work with. Though his basics are sound and well-learned he is the least inventive problemsolver I've ever seen.

  • ClaudeSuck.de (unregistered) in reply to GCU Arbitrary
    GCU Arbitrary:
    Is it me, or are the WTFs getting to be less about IT, and more about incompetent management?

    IT is competent, management isn't!

  • yah (unregistered) in reply to VP
    VP:
    pitchingchris:
    This almost made me laugh. Because you can bet your bottom dollar if this really happened, we'd have a lot more stuff on TDWTF. I'm not saying that people can't be self-taught programmers, but without enough guidance and education behind it, it would take much longer to hone certain skills required.
    Plain and utter bs.

    What except algorithms and general programming concepts is taught in college and university today? Not much. Some of my closest mates and old classmates from compsci (which I dropped out of after a year) got bachelors or masters and work as programmers. Sufficient to say only one of them is actually any good and adapt at several languages.

    Except for senior positions today the only thing I can see required (for C#, java, php, asp.net etc) is usually understanding the concepts behind those kind of languages (generics/templates/oop blahblah) and a basic understanding of patterns.

    One of my closest mates did bachelor compsci, was mostly java and some C++. He's gotten two great paying jobs since he got his degree but I'm pretty sure he's not one I'd like to work with. Though his basics are sound and well-learned he is the least inventive problemsolver I've ever seen.

    An interesting one - I did Programming Development Concepts at college and thought it was a great course that taught you what programming was all about (this was many moons ago and it was in C). I felt it really clicked (with me) re heuristics and how to problem-solve etc. Now recently I read something (an academic paper on the web, which I may well have found via DailyWTF) which basically says programming is a knack and that something like 60% of people cannot program and will never be able to program no matter what (or how) you teach them. This would not be of such significance if there were not so many of thse people working in f@cking IT.

  • Eric L (unregistered)

    Look, we have based our entire political system around incompetent management. It has to work for private industry too

  • (cs) in reply to Robert S. Robbins
    Robert S. Robbins:
    "white, fur-lined boots matching her white, fur-lined coat, which she wore over a leopard-print blouse"

    This sounds like a very creative outfit and web development requires a lot of creativity. Probably a Mac user.

    Well, duh! The leopard-print blouse gave that away, Mr. Obvious. <g>

  • (cs) in reply to Mark
    Mark:
    Probably a Mac user.

    Probably a whore.

    Probably your sister.

  • (cs) in reply to Not Wtf
    Not Wtf:
    the comments are even worse.

    Yep. You just proved that. Again.

    Go away.

  • (cs) in reply to Vincenzo
    Vincenzo:
    Magazine subscription updates are a great idea.

    Yes, they are.

    Vincenzo:
    a month before expiration as a reminder....

    But not every minute, which was the point of the article.

  • (cs) in reply to DOA
    DOA:
    dkf:
    Chi1x0r:
    Many of my older peers did just this, because computer science as a college major is only about 15 years old
    In the UK, Computer Science as a separate discipline really took off in 1964, making it 45 years old next year, with the first undergraduate courses starting in the following year. But maybe it took 30 years for computers to be shipped by mule-train into your neck of the woods…
    I wasn't around in 1965, but I'm pretty sure they weren't teaching C#, Java, PHP or any other language 90% of the industry will look for today.

    Apparently whenever you went to school they weren't teaching reading comprehension or logic either. Things must really be going downhill in the education system these days.

  • Someone who cares (unregistered)

    That was a very interesting story I liked iiiiiiiiiiiiitttt. Global warming is very important also.So is the ring of fire.

  • furnstein (unregistered) in reply to some guy
    some guy:
    Franz_Kafka:
    Sure, you can be a good programmer and look like a sorostitute, but then you'd be able to list some sort of experience in the field, wouldn't you?

    You know, I'm getting real tired of that word. Surely as an "intelligent" person, you don't have to resort to petty stereotypical insults.

    People like you really do make me ashamed of my gender.

    Because you Really haven't figured it out yet, have you?

  • carl sagan (unregistered) in reply to dkf

    The first CS program in the US launched at <a rel="nofollow" href="href="http://www2.cs.purdue.edu/40th/timeline/1960.htm"" target="_blank" title="href="http://www2.cs.purdue.edu/40th/timeline/1960.htm""> Purdue University in 1962.

    captcha=appellatio

    (I don't want to know what that is)

  • David W (unregistered) in reply to Just Some Guy

    The real wtf here is my math :D

    Thanks for answering

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