The Daily WTF: Curious Perversions in Information Technology

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampo Sampo, in Finnish mythology and in some of it's many forms, could be compared to alchemist's stone as some mystic thing that can produce gold or other goods from almost nothing.

akatherder · 2008-08-05 Reply Admin

jbrecken:
A Nonny Mouse:
Danske opted to expand its integration project team to a whopping 2,500 employees and the budget to more than $300 million

with enough resources, it could have been built in a day!

Get nine women pregnant, and you can make a baby in a month. (Phrase it that way and even a manager can understand.)

So you're saying there's no point in having more than one person on the project team? Thanks for volunteering!

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

A Nonny Mouse:
Danske opted to expand its integration project team to a whopping 2,500 employees and the budget to more than $300 million

with enough resources, it could have been built in a day!

Just like development shops everywhere, the managers here routinely ask if adding more resources would help get a project done faster. The DBA always responds "Can 9 women have a baby in 1 month?"

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

yet another Matt:
After buying the other bank why did they want to throw away so much money?
If you buy a product in a real world, like a PC, you don't throw away it's brand new, high speed hard disk and replace it with one that you have lieing around in a draw.

Someone really should have pointed that the other product was better, and replaced their own.

I actually feel sad for Sampo.

You're obviously not upper-management material. Not with that kind of thinking...

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

jbrecken:
A Nonny Mouse:
Danske opted to expand its integration project team to a whopping 2,500 employees and the budget to more than $300 million

with enough resources, it could have been built in a day!

Get nine women pregnant, and you can make a baby in a month. (Phrase it that way and even a manager can understand.)

Hmmm... not so sure I'd use that one during a meeting...

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

biziclop:
TRWTF is that only 20000 customers left. In a proper world all the big customers would've jumped ship plus at least 10% of the smaller ones and the ensuing barrage of lawsuits should've forced the bank to fold.

They tried, but the new computer system wouldn't let them take their money out or close their accounts.

Flash · 2008-08-05 Reply Admin

Anonymous Cowardly Lion:
yet another Matt:
If you buy a product in a real world, like a PC, you don't throw away it's brand new, high speed hard disk and replace it with one that you have lieing around in a draw.
Someone really should have pointed that the other product was better, and replaced their own.

They're [correct] not so much buying the bank's [correct] infrastructure as it's [wrong] customer base. Bank's [wrong] make money by spending other people's [correct] money (generally,) and the more clients they have, the more money they have to spend.

Your analysis is correct, even if your use of apostrophes is hit and miss.

I've been through several technology/business acquisitions. What is best for the business or the customers often takes a back seat to the requirements of political forces within the merged companies.

Buzer · 2008-08-05 Reply Admin

Ken B:
biziclop:
TRWTF is that only 20000 customers left. In a proper world all the big customers would've jumped ship plus at least 10% of the smaller ones and the ensuing barrage of lawsuits should've forced the bank to fold.
They tried, but the new computer system wouldn't let them take their money out or close their accounts.

Actually yes for the second part. I have heard of some people that decided to switch bank and told Sampo to close their account. A month or so later they get their account statement again (or if they really do want to close it, they attempt to login on the e-banking site sometime later to confrim it's closed). I'm sure there's quite a bit of people that just wouldn't bother after that and just leave it open.

snoofle · 2008-08-05 Reply Admin

mizchief:
We figured out why software projects fail in the 90's and it's time to learn from our mistakes.

"We" being the operative word. WE software developers and low level (read: tech-savvy) managers get it. It's the higher level managers that don't get it, and they are not us.

Alex:
expand its integration project team to a whopping 2,500 employees

Project Manager: we need to make a baby in one month Worker: But we only have one woman PM: Then hire eight more women!

Addendum (2008-08-05 13:23): Rats, someone beat me to the 9-women analogy....

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

"One disgruntled customer took an axe to a wooden desk"

That was so typically Finnish behavior. :)

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

It's nice to finally see an article about this fiasco on The Daily WTF, although I must say that it doesn't really do justice to the actual events. This was big news here in Finland for quite a while.

The way Sampo Pankki handled the situation was a disaster on all fronts, and their stunts had me laughing for a straight week. The customers weren't amused at all, though.

Every day new XSS vulnerabilities were discovered and taken advantage of by hackers out to humiliate the corporation for its childish PR games. The single most ridiculed statement came from Director of Group Communications, Hannu Vuola when the first reports of an XSS vulnerability hit the news: "It's not a hole before we can confirm it's a hole."

Here are a few screenshots from that time:

http://www.cs.uta.fi/~a445063/sampopankki_20080327-1142.png The quoted text is the famous statement by Hannu Vuola.

http://www.cs.uta.fi/~a445063/sampopankki_20080326-2257.png] WinCapita was an online Ponzi scam which was under police investigation at the time. The text reads: "WinCapita has implemented a new security solution!1!"

http://www.cs.uta.fi/~a445063/sampopankki_20080326-2255.png Rick Astley promoting Sampo Pankki.

Ah, the fun times I had grabbing those. :)

snoofle · 2008-08-05 Reply Admin

FooMan:
"One disgruntled customer took an axe to a wooden desk"
That was so typically Finnish behavior. :)

Not at all. When I first started working, Grumman in Long Island, used to hire 1-2000 people in anticipation of getting big military contract, then wouldn't get it, and fire them all. Then repeat it every few months or so. Finally, someone got PO'd at being jerked around, got a GUN, went into the plant, and shot his boss.

An axe in a desk? Meh.

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

Sure, gun is worse, but my comment still stands. Shooting someone is American behavior... Axe is the Finnish way!

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

boggles

They couldn't accept embedded images with their copy of Lotus???

We were using Lotus Notes for our e-mail here when I was hired ten years ago. It supported inline images just fine. How freakin' old was their copy of Lotus???

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

public static final int RandomCommentNotEnoughRandom = 0;

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

Calli Arcale:
*boggles*
They couldn't accept embedded images with their copy of Lotus???

We were using Lotus Notes for our e-mail here when I was hired ten years ago. It supported inline images just fine. How freakin' old was their copy of Lotus???

It must have been one of those cheap imitation lotuses. Adhesive paste wouldn't hold a photo well enough, so you had to affix a paper clip instead.

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

What I find amazing is when managers decide that they know more about technological realities than the very highly educated and highly paid employees that they oversee.

When you have an entire TEAM of developers that you are paying 6 figures a year telling you "There is no possible way that this can be done in 6 months" why do you still think that they can? Are you a programmer? Do you WORK on the programming team?

I blame it on computers becoming more user friendly. When only the super ultra mega nerds had or understood them, people listened, but now any jackass that listens to Kim Commando! on AM talk radio thinks that they're fit to make decisions about things that they know nothing about.

I hate it, people need to understand that you cannot treat mental work in the same way that you can treat physical work. For example: if i have a giant pile of dogshit that I need moved from one end of my dog shit storage facility to the other end of my dog shit storage facility, it makes sense that if I need it done in a day, i can just hire a few hundred laborers, maybe buy some heavy equipment, and get the job finished in the time required. Dumbasses with a bachelors in Computer information systems don't get this. You cannot just yell at your developers louder and louder and make bigger and bigger threats until they get it done. It doesn't work like that.

Same thing goes for creative people. Its not a goddamned faucet that you can just turn on and have brilliant designs and ideas spill forth onto your desk. Its something that you might get in the middle of the night, or when you're watching a movie, or walking the dog.

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

jbrecken:
A Nonny Mouse:
Danske opted to expand its integration project team to a whopping 2,500 employees and the budget to more than $300 million

with enough resources, it could have been built in a day!

Get nine women pregnant, and you can make a baby in a month. (Phrase it that way and even a manager can understand.)

That's awesome! I've never heard that one before.

akatherder:

So you're saying there's no point in having more than one person on the project team? Thanks for volunteering!

No, that's not what he's saying. There is a common misconception that time and resources are mathematically divisible. So if you tell a manager that a project will take 9 months, they assume that means 9 people can do it in a month, or 18 people in 2 weeks. But in reality, it might take 9 people 10 or 12 months to do. (Note: These numbers are a bit arbitrary just to make a point.) So it takes longer having more resources. Why? Because the communication and coordination work increases. As a simple example, think about how much more communications is involved in planning a weekend getaway with two friends than is needed to do the same with one friend.

This is the main point of Fred Brooks' The Mythical Man-Month essay. In it, he sites actual case studies and research to back up the point.

And this doesn't even deal with the the idea of dependencies... you need to pour the foundation before you do the framing; and you need to frame before you run the plumbing... etc. It amazes me that otherwise very intelligent people can so easily overlook this point. For some reason, it is thought that in software development, every thing can be done concurrently.

IMHO, The Mythical Man-Month should be required reading for anyone involved in a software project; developer or project manager.

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

What I find amazing is when managers decide that they know more about technological realities than the very highly educated and highly paid employees that they oversee.

Am I amazed? Yes. Surprised? Not so much.

There are some good managers out there, and I happen to work for one. Example:

We were preparing to upgrade our campus management software (we run several for-profit 2 year colleges). EVERYONE uses this app. If it is down for even a few minutes there is hell to pay. So, long story short our providers gave us incomplete specs as to the requirements (hardware and OS) that we didn't figure out until 2 weeks before go-live (we were woefully short in some areas) and several components were as yet untested because there was so much added to the app. Our manager listened to what our main software person said, what I said (I run the citrix farm that serves the app) which was basically "we are headed for disaster". His response? Move the go-live out 30 days, berate the provider for better specs and testing in our virtual environment, and HE explained (apparently successfully) to Exec management why we were going to take an extra 30 days. End result? Go-live went off without a hitch. My only disappointment was to be denied my possible WTF story :)

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

Joel Robinson:
Tom Servo, what is a SAMPO?

I think a Sampo is a strapless evening gown.

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

Most stuff are still slightly broken, especially cards. It's a running joke in finland, and I personally pity anyone who cannot switch banks (or hasn't done so, which is worse).

But think of this. Modern bank is in the service industry, and practically all they do is providing IT service. They screwed up their only real core business.

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

I'm a customer of Fokus Bank, a norwegian bank also bought up by Danske Bank. We are forced to use the same online banking system, and it truly sucks. :(

I'm on a Mac, and there are NO browsers on the Mac platform that actually works. They claim to support Safari, but it refuses to even log me in. I have to start VMWare every time I need to pay my bills.

Unfortunately, I have a loan in the bank, and one of the terms for said loan is that I use Fokus Bank for my daily banking needs. The minute that loan is down to zero, I'm switching bank...

danixdefcon5 · 2008-08-05 Reply Admin

I'd say that TRWTF is having a Finnish bank that doesn't support Linux. I men, its part of their national pride!

Nokia should've given 'em the "roll back or I'll dump you" stance. Whatever they rolled out, it seems to deserve it.

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

Daniel:
I just hope someone very high up in management got fired for this.

I guarentee someone very high in management got a BONUS for making the Easter deadline...

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

mizchief:
There is simply no excuse for a failure this large involving something as important as people's money. Especially any project taking place in this century. We figured out why software projects fail in the 90's and it's time to learn from our mistakes.

Are you kidding? We learned why software projects fail in the 60s.

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

I guarentee someone very high in management got a BONUS for making the Easter deadline...

The people telling them that it wouldn't work, and then the people that "caused" it not to work, are probably the one[s] who got fired.

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

Mark:

akatherder:

So you're saying there's no point in having more than one person on the project team? Thanks for volunteering!
No, that's not what he's saying. There is a common misconception that time and resources are mathematically divisible. So if you tell a manager that a project will take 9 months, they assume ...blah, blah... 9 people can do it ...blah, blah, blah... in 2 weeks. But in reality, ...blah, blah... a weekend ...blah, blah... is needed to do the same ...blahblahblah.

So, you'll have that baby on Monday, right?

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

Mark:

akatherder:

So you're saying there's no point in having more than one person on the project team? Thanks for volunteering!

No, that's not what he's saying. There is a common misconception that time and resources are mathematically divisible. So if you tell a manager that a project will take 9 months, they assume that means 9 people can do it in a month, or 18 people in 2 weeks. But in reality, it might take 9 people 10 or 12 months to do. (Note: These numbers are a bit arbitrary just to make a point.) So it takes longer having more resources. Why? Because the communication and coordination work increases. As a simple example, think about how much more communications is involved in planning a weekend getaway with two friends than is needed to do the same with one friend.

This is the main point of Fred Brooks' The Mythical Man-Month essay. In it, he sites actual case studies and research to back up the point.

And this doesn't even deal with the the idea of dependencies... you need to pour the foundation before you do the framing; and you need to frame before you run the plumbing... etc. It amazes me that otherwise very intelligent people can so easily overlook this point. For some reason, it is thought that in software development, every thing can be done concurrently.

IMHO, The Mythical Man-Month should be required reading for anyone involved in a software project; developer or project manager.

Amen to that. I was actually going to make that point myself. Also one should point out that there is a limit to how much you can parallelize tasks; past this point, throwing more resources is just going to slow down the project, because you just increase the overhead of communication without actually increasing the throughput.

Loved the comparison with the 9 women and the baby.

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

Nokia should've given 'em the "roll back or I'll dump you" stance. Whatever they rolled out, it seems to deserve it.

It's not quite as simple as that for any business of any appreciable size. Nokia would need to deal with any systems which interact with their bank accounts (which therefore implies setting up new accounts with other banks and testing everything works as intended), advise all their customers, pay back any debt (just because a business is making a profit doesn't mean it doesn't have debt) - dumping the bank would probably be a several-month project, not a quick & easy "Right, we're off, see you!".

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

moltonel:
About a year ago my previous company had (probably still has) Danske Bank as a client, and would send them automated emails containing embeded images.

How was the mater resolved ? I was tasked to send images as file attachment, of course :)

So, you were basically your own WTF.

E-mail is text only, and the only 100% reliable way to make sure something non-text gets through is to attach it via MIME encoding. Any other way is at the mercy of the MUAs at each end to agree on how to do it.

If you send me an e-mail using standard MIME with some rich format like HTML, my text-only MUA has no problem with it as long as your MUA correctly included a plain-text format and included images as attachments and referenced them from the HTML. Otherwise, I'll have no way to see the images you sent, as it's not worth my time to figure out what proprietary way your MUA included them in the e-mail.

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

Tama:
Mark:

akatherder:

So you're saying there's no point in having more than one person on the project team? Thanks for volunteering!

No, that's not what he's saying. ...snip ...

IMHO, The Mythical Man-Month should be required reading for anyone involved in a software project; developer or project manager.

Amen to that. ...snip...

Loved the comparison with the 9 women and the baby.

Looks like we have a couple of people on the wrong side of the sarchasm. How do you get stuck across the rift on something as obvious as that?

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

Oh, so that's why in the bank I currently develop for Sampo's money transfers are explicitly monitored. Shame on me missing such a story. But, on the other hand, we've been busy rolling out a new system! =D

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

yet another Matt:
After buying the other bank why did they want to throw away so much money?
If you buy a product in a real world, like a PC, you don't throw away it's brand new, high speed hard disk and replace it with one that you have lieing around in a draw.

Someone really should have pointed that the other product was better, and replaced their own.

I actually feel sad for Sampo.

An important fact needed to (try to) understand Danske Bank's decision to rewrite all systems is that this strategy is one that has worked extremely well for them in previous mergers. I think the major difference here is that in previous instances, the bank that was taken over had less automatic processes, whereas in the Sampo Pankki case, their systems were probably superior to those of Danske Bank.

Is it time for a WTF detailing how Danske Bank managed to be offline (as in "no transactions in any part of the bank, not even for traders") for a week due to bad decision making when a power supply needed to be changed...?

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

IV:
Tama:
Mark:

akatherder:

So you're saying there's no point in having more than one person on the project team? Thanks for volunteering!

No, that's not what he's saying. ...snip ...

IMHO, The Mythical Man-Month should be required reading for anyone involved in a software project; developer or project manager.

Amen to that. ...snip...

Loved the comparison with the 9 women and the baby.

Looks like we have a couple of people on the wrong side of the sarchasm. How do you get stuck across the rift on something as obvious as that?

Sorry, in regards to the comment:

"So you're saying there's no point in having more than one person on the project team? Thanks for volunteering!"

I just saw the sarcasm in the comment more as a wise guy rebuttal (for the lack of a better term) rather than a simple general sarcastic comment in order to make a joke. The dangers of forum comments I guess. No harm, no foul. :)

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

Jeff Rife:
moltonel:
About a year ago my previous company had (probably still has) Danske Bank as a client, and would send them automated emails containing embeded images.

How was the mater resolved ? I was tasked to send images as file attachment, of course :)
So, you were basically your own WTF.
E-mail is text only, and the only 100% reliable way to make sure something non-text gets through is to attach it via MIME encoding. Any other way is at the mercy of the MUAs at each end to agree on how to do it.

If you send me an e-mail using standard MIME with some rich format like HTML, my text-only MUA has no problem with it as long as your MUA correctly included a plain-text format and included images as attachments and referenced them from the HTML. Otherwise, I'll have no way to see the images you sent, as it's not worth my time to figure out what proprietary way your MUA included them in the e-mail.

Thank you, sir. I hate when people put important textual information in images, whether it be in Web pagers or e-mails. Why do you think I want to download your large images to see what link to click?

What moltonel failed to provide was why those images were in the e-mails in the first place...

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

hmm ...

Nov 16, 2006 ITC Infotech India Limited, a global IT services company, today inaugurated a dedicated Development Centre India (DCI) for one of its key customers, Danske Bank.

from http://www.itcportal.com/newsroom/press_releases_13nov06.htm

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

I just quit working for American Express. They Still use IBM Lotus 5.0 and Sametime Instant Messenger 2.0.1.

I cant fault them much, they are currently upgrading to Lotus 6 and the new sametimeIM, but knowing that company the way I do. I would be surprised if they ever finish the upgrade.

real_aardvark · 2008-08-05 Reply Admin

stx:
Most stuff are still slightly broken, especially cards. It's a running joke in finland, and I personally pity anyone who cannot switch banks (or hasn't done so, which is worse).
But think of this. Modern bank is in the service industry, and practically all they do is providing IT service. They screwed up their only real core business.

I believe you're missing something called "Marketing."

Seriously.

Check out the commercials during something like, say, the Super Bowl.

50% of credit-card/electronic banking is Marketing. I've been there. It's unpalatable, but it's the truth.

real_aardvark · 2008-08-05 Reply Admin

FooMan:
"One disgruntled customer took an axe to a wooden desk"
That was so typically Finnish behavior. :)

Well, they're all ignorant drunkards, really.

Anybody who is anybody knows that a wooden desk is where you place your credit/ATM card, take a photo, print the photo, scan the photo next to the receipt for your purchase, and email the scan to your local Sampo branch.

Anybody who has ever used Sampo's services since that Easter has probably found this to be the most effective way of banking with them.

Axes are best saved for winnowing out middle management and VPs, of whom there are far too many in the wanking borld.

On a different note, does anybody know where this interesting little meme of "encrypting" something in Base64, and then "re-encrypting" it using the same "technology," comes from? It's not quite the silliest goddamn piece of crap that the Internet has foisted on us, but it's getting pretty close.

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

silent d:
If only we could find a way to outsource management...

Sampo Bank found a way to outsource theirs.

Unfortunately, the only people you can let manage a company without it turning them into managers are politicians.

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

frustrati:
I think the major difference here is that in previous instances, the bank that was taken over had less automatic processes, whereas in the Sampo Pankki case, their systems were probably superior to those of Danske Bank.

This is exactly the case. I used Sampo's web service for over ten years and already at the very beginning it was easily better, more stable, compatible and user friendly than this "new" one. This is not because the old system was anything special (there are much better alternatives available), but the Danske's system is absolutely the most amateurish piece of code I have ever seen.

The backend system runs on z/OS + CISC + DB2 and stuff, and the notorious error message 404 multifail has become a meme here.

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

TFA says why; they used a bunch of JNI (Java Native Interface) calls which effectively destroys the platform agnosticism of Java.

Mithrandir · 2008-08-05 Reply Admin

Tom Servo:
Joel Robinson:
Tom Servo, what is a SAMPO?

I think a Sampo is a strapless evening gown.

Tom, you think everything is a strapless evening gown.

VGR · 2008-08-05 Reply Admin

Outlaw Programmer:
Yeah, I read that part, but what does that have to do with browser dependency? I can understand the DLLs causing a platform dependency, but my understanding is the Java plug-in for both browsers is pretty straightforward.

It's possible the applet was developed so long ago that it was done using J++, which somewhat clandestinely placed in the code hooks which invoked Windows libraries. (Well, clandestine to those who don't look at the javadoc generated in their own source, which sadly is not an insignificant number.)

This is in fact the practice for which Sun originally sued Microsoft, as Microsoft was claiming J++ produced "Java" but the result was not compliant with the Java specification.

This old article has some details.

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

Mithrandir:
Tom Servo:
Joel Robinson:
Tom Servo, what is a SAMPO?
I think a Sampo is a strapless evening gown.
Tom, you think everything is a strapless evening gown.

Kids come running for the rich taste of Sampo!

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

Sampo is a "thing" in a finnish lore that will make you a fortune of all a kind. Please refer a Kalevala.

tin · 2008-08-05 Reply Admin

The most obvious oddity in the Danske applet was that it made extensive use of platform-specific native DLLs -- such as non-Java code -- for no apparent reason, thereby effectively undoing the platform-independence of the Java applet.

The good old Australian Tax Office did a similar trick. To allow for easy cross platform use (at the time they meant Win9x, WinNT and MacOS Classic) they chose to use Java. Unfortunately the reason behind using Java was lost and they chose to forge ahead with Microsoft Nearly-Java, thus losing the ability to run it on anything but a Windows box.

They broke this little problem when MS was forced to stop distributing their not-java stuff. Now the tools really are cross platform... Well, as long as you use Windows 98-XP or MacOSX. Anything else you have to get the Windows installer, install on Windows, and pull the 4 or so custom files from the Java install they provide.

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

That's the nice about working at a bank, as opposed to say, an online Sudoku site. You don't need to do any rigorous testing or a have a back-out plan. Just put it what you got on the deadline and work out the issues over time. Years, if needed.

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

yay! Finally a wtf 50% from my country! I even know one or two people who i remember said they worked on a new system for Danske Bank a couple of months ago. Maybe i can dig up some dirt...

2008-08-05 Reply Admin

This little comment caught my attention and I think there's a reasonable explanation:

And then there was this curious snippet of code:
public static final int RandomErrorNotEnoughRandom = 1;

If you're familiar with how many leading operating system handle entropy this isn't so strange:

In Linux it's usually /dev/random and in Windows it's HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Cryptography\RNG\Seed which are used to provide truly random numbers. These random streams are kept filled from input sources that the operating system considers random(e.g. keyboard, microphone, network traffic).

If you have a program that is a voracious eater of random values it can actually use up all the values stored on the computer. Hence you can have not enough random numbers. I've witnessed a Java Tomcat server hang until someone randomly typed on the server keyboard because there was not enough random numbers.

You tell me if /dev/random and it's ilk are wtfs but they are the current way of doing truly random

Sampo Uh-Oh

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