• Cheong (unregistered) in reply to Bogolese
    Bogolese:
    From 5 months to 6 weeks is "marginally shitty?"
    Yup. If the project goes pass the time limit, nothing the manager said would make the project appear right now. So this "time estimation tweak" is little to worry.

    Just make sure you CC-ed your origional estimation to upper management as well.

    And actually, I know of some PM who always make impossible deadline because they have already closed the deal under the table with the client, and somehow need a reason to make sure the company wins the bid - a over 50% shorter time estimation almost always guarantee the win.

    And it doesn't really matter if other company attempts to bid with a even lower estimate. If they did, just cut the project for "unable to meet the deadline" and start the "procurement" process again.

    So thats little to worry about if I were the origional poster.

  • Implementator (unregistered)

    It's too bad Gary wasn't a consultant, he could charge Steve $200 an hour to "develop" some of those open-source tools for him.

  • ScrumRocks (unregistered) in reply to CaptainCaveman

    I agree here. We use scrum in our shop. Works out very well. No BS deadlines going on here.

  • Brendan (unregistered) in reply to ScrumRocks
    ScrumRocks:
    I agree here. We use scrum in our shop. Works out very well. No BS deadlines going on here.

    Because instead of having one deadline each task becomes a deadline, then each sprint becomes a deadline.

    All too often scrum just becomes a micromanagement tool. An endless series of little deadlines so that management can keep their thumbs on the development team.

  • Gunslinger (unregistered) in reply to stillinbeta
    stillinbeta:
    How could anyone think that writing your own version of a library would take LESS TIME? Maybe I haven't worked in industry enough...

    They would think that because they consider the available library to have a bunch of features that you don't need, and be hard to use because you don't know the interface and have to learn it. They are wrong of course, but it appears to be a logical thought process if you don't examine it.

  • (cs) in reply to Anon
    Anon:
    Wilhelm Svenselius:
    Steve had altered Gary’s letter to indicate that it would take six weeks to finish the project.
    TRWTF is that he did not quit right there and then.

    If you quit your job every time something marginally shitty happens, I doubt you'd be in any job for more than about....six weeks.

    Outstanding comment, and so true. Everybody is such an internet tough guy and says "I'ld stick my foot up his ass!" when in reality they would probably go back to their desk, hug their pokemon doll and get back to work. Responsible adults, especially ones with obligations(such as, oh a kid on the way, as in the story) would simply suck it up and start looking for a new job.

  • drusi (unregistered) in reply to stillinbeta
    stillinbeta:
    How could anyone think that writing your own version of a library would take LESS TIME? Maybe I haven't worked in industry enough...

    It's very simple, actually. Probably a sequence of events something like this:

    1. Project W comes in. It will take roughly six months overall, and involves minor task X which is easy to hand-code.
    2. All the managers are talking about how they're using Big Fancy Library Y lately, and Steve mandates that it be used for W's X, despite Programmer Z informing him that Y is entirely unsuited to X.
    3. Z spends five of the six weeks he was allotted for W trying to find the right combination of functions in Y that will let him X.
    4. Finally, Z gives up and just writes the simple code for X like he originally wanted.
    5. Z is punished for completing W successfully.
    6. Steve learns the wrong lesson from the experience.
  • Bushea (unregistered) in reply to Silverhill
    Silverhill:
    If you're going to be pedantic, at least get it right. That "our" in there changes the whole phrase.

    6% * (our 12% lost salary [from previous context])

    not 6% * 12%

    I think he meant that the "bonus" amounted to 1/2 of the lost 12%, so that they only lost 6%....

    Correct... sorry, English is not my first language :).
  • st0815 (unregistered) in reply to cod3_complete
    cod3_complete:
    How the hell does a moron like Steve keep his job????? It baffles the mind. Not only that but why did Gary stay or at least raise hell with upper management?? If upper management knew a story besides Steve's at least one light-bulb might come on that something is amiss.

    Gary has the job because that's his skill: convincing upper management that he is the right man for the job. If upper management were able to see through that - if they'd realize that was his only skill, then he wouldn't be in that position in the first place.

    On top of that, many mangers believe if they apply a lot of schedule pressure then results will be produced faster than if they don't. So they will think if Gary hadn't pushed his unreasonable estimate of six weeks, then it would have taken even longer - maybe 9 month or a year.

    Going against him with upper management is risky - remember that Gary does an excellent job dealing with upper management. Steve on the other hand can't even get his manager to accept his effort estimates. Steve could very easily lose this battle and there is a very slim chance that he'd gain any sort of benefit even if he'd win.

    Furthermore upper management is likely afraid of destroying their hierarchy. If they allow employees to go over their manager's heads, then they soon will have to deal with every issue they hired the middle manager for. They are quite likely even less qualified to do that than Gary was. Other middle managers who are perfectly qualified might lose their authority in the process, as well.

    So if in doubt they will always support their middle manager against the engineer - the cards are heavily stacked against Gary.

  • ted (unregistered)

    I've never had anything remotely like this happen to me. I've also burned many a salesmen and idiotic managers.

    Maybe I'm just good at anticipating problems and covering my ass, but the sales people here know they'll lose (badly) if they promise anything to a client that I didn't clear. It's there fault for lying to the client. When upper management calls us both into the office, I don't just prove the liar for what he is once, but I keep doing it over and over again and take the opportunity to point out past lies again. Then the sales person gets shitlisted, and I go out of my way to make it even more difficult for him in the future. They will eventually quit or get fired. Getting them to quit is desirable so they don't get unemployment.

    What the fuck is wrong with spineless dweebs like Gary? How could anything like that ever happen? Are they too stupid to make a paper trail? Did his manager not get hung out to dry the first time he pulled the six weeks bullshit and LIED to upper management about it?

    It doesn't really matter how friendly he is with upper management when you go out of your way to prove him a liar.

    And don't be afraid to use rhetoric like calling him a liar to his boss. Don't use this bullshit language like "misspoke" or "didn't recall". Rhetoric makes it even more difficult for the moron to think and cover his ass when under the gun.

    I have never lost a battle like this. I guess it's a matter of having a fucking spine and not being intimidated.

    And one other thing: EVERYONE in a "professional" environment is scared to death of rhetoric. Call someone a liar and they will be utterly stunned. Get called a liar and demand proof. If they can't produce proof, then you have a free ticket to bash the fuck out of them for calling you a "liar" and questioning your integrity.

    Do that once, and it will NEVER happen again at that company. If they can produce proof, then you're fucked. But that shouldn't happen anyway and is a whole different matter.

  • (cs) in reply to ted
    ted:
    I've never had anything remotely like this happen to me. I've also burned many a salesmen and idiotic managers.

    Maybe I'm just good at anticipating problems and covering my ass, but the sales people here know they'll lose (badly) if they promise anything to a client that I didn't clear. It's there fault for lying to the client. When upper management calls us both into the office, I don't just prove the liar for what he is once, but I keep doing it over and over again and take the opportunity to point out past lies again. Then the sales person gets shitlisted, and I go out of my way to make it even more difficult for him in the future. They will eventually quit or get fired. Getting them to quit is desirable so they don't get unemployment.

    What the fuck is wrong with spineless dweebs like Gary? How could anything like that ever happen? Are they too stupid to make a paper trail? Did his manager not get hung out to dry the first time he pulled the six weeks bullshit and LIED to upper management about it?

    It doesn't really matter how friendly he is with upper management when you go out of your way to prove him a liar.

    And don't be afraid to use rhetoric like calling him a liar to his boss. Don't use this bullshit language like "misspoke" or "didn't recall". Rhetoric makes it even more difficult for the moron to think and cover his ass when under the gun.

    I have never lost a battle like this. I guess it's a matter of having a fucking spine and not being intimidated.

    And one other thing: EVERYONE in a "professional" environment is scared to death of rhetoric. Call someone a liar and they will be utterly stunned. Get called a liar and demand proof. If they can't produce proof, then you have a free ticket to bash the fuck out of them for calling you a "liar" and questioning your integrity.

    Do that once, and it will NEVER happen again at that company. If they can produce proof, then you're fucked. But that shouldn't happen anyway and is a whole different matter.

    I'm guessing "ted" doesn't actually have a job. My guess is his Aunts keep ole Teddy occupied digging the Panama Canal down in the basement.

  • (cs) in reply to ted
    ted:
    What the fuck is wrong with spineless dweebs like Gary?
    Aside from being an adult in a mature setting making his best effort to work with others (in spite of their obvious flaws) without resorting to childish hostility and name-calling?

    Yeah, what a wimp, right?

  • CJ (unregistered)

    This kind of thing is by no means limited to tech businesses. My uni holiday job is working for a removalist company. We end up working 12-14 hour days sometimes, because the sales people book every single client they can get on the exact day that they want, regardless of how many jobs are already scheduled for that day.

  • (cs) in reply to airdrik

    airdrik IS "6 week Steve"

  • (cs) in reply to Jerry
    Jerry:
    We had a team asking every day "is it done yet" when they hadn't even settled on requirements yet. So finally we said "Yes, it's done."

    Oh goodie! Can we try it now?

    Sure!

    Hey, but it doesn't do THIS.

    (Quickly jotting down a note: Requirement #1 - THIS)

    And that's how we got them to tell us what they really wanted.

    It's often the only way to get requirements. So many times the customer does not know what is wanted till the first mock-up is viewed. Build that reality into your business model and development strategy and you've mastered one of the more important lessons of the software industry.

  • airdrik (unregistered) in reply to travisowens
    travisowens:
    airdrik IS "6 week Steve"
    You can't believe I was serious???
  • (cs) in reply to Matt Westwood

    I wonder: is RC1 a dialog box with an OK button, and, when you get Requirement #1 - "But it doesn't do anything!!!" - : does RC2 play tetris by itself?

  • Cody (unregistered) in reply to KP

    This: Also, when upper management says "Why isn't it done in six weeks", you should respond "where did you get six weeks, I estimated 5 months?".

    Agreed! I would never let a manager pull something like that on me, I have too much self respect.

    If it's a small thing, an accident; maybe. If it's calling me an outright liar? I'd rather take the small risk of losing my job.

  • (cs) in reply to stillinbeta
    stillinbeta:
    How could anyone think that writing your own version of a library would take LESS TIME? Maybe I haven't worked in industry enough...
    Surprisingly, sometimes reinventing the wheel DOES take less time.
  • (cs)
    the article:
    Gary had quickly discovered Steve despised open source tools.

    Is "Steve" blakeyrat, by any chance?

  • Wilhelm Svenselius (unregistered) in reply to amischiefr
    amischiefr:
    Anon:
    Wilhelm Svenselius:
    Steve had altered Gary’s letter to indicate that it would take six weeks to finish the project.
    TRWTF is that he did not quit right there and then.
    If you quit your job every time something marginally shitty happens, I doubt you'd be in any job for more than about....six weeks.
    Outstanding comment, and so true. Everybody is such an internet tough guy and says "I'ld stick my foot up his ass!" when in reality they would probably go back to their desk, hug their pokemon doll and get back to work. Responsible adults, especially ones with obligations(such as, oh a kid on the way, as in the story) would simply suck it up and start looking for a new job.
    "Internet tough guy" here. Management displaying such utter disregard for the skills and judgement of their staff is not a "marginal" issue. You can work in that environment if you'd like, I won't. I will and have quit jobs for less serious reasons. Of course I already had another job offer; a shitty job is still better than unemployment. But you can typically see these things coming and that gives you plenty of time to plan where to go next.

    Let's assume Gary did not see this coming the first time around and had no other choice but unemployment. Then six months later, Steve does the same thing again. Six months is plenty of time to find a job. Even if you think he should have just "sucked it up" the first time, what's your excuse for putting up with it TWICE?

  • GFK (unregistered) in reply to amischiefr

    If you think there are jobs out there and you can find one, then you shouldn't be scared to stand up, even if it's not in a speak-your-mind-and-leave-the-room-without-looking-behind fashion. It's an advice, which means "that's what I would do", not "that's what I always did because I'm such a strong personnality irl".

    It really comes down to experience. In your first years, you don't have the confidence because you're new, your knowledge is theoretical and you just think "maybe it's just the way it is". It happened to me. I had one year experience, and entered a company where unit testing was considered a waste of time and Resharper a dangerous check-out generator. I didn't say anything, and one year later every Sunday was a hell just because Monday comes just after, even tough I was making a really comfortable amount of money.

    I was getting more and more critical about the choices made by the team leader and eventually they just got rid of me. I recon I should have stood up before, because maybe they would have acknowledge some self-confidence and changed their ways, because their habits originated more in everyone's being young than in some big company rigidity. It's a shame, I liked the product and the company's business (conceiving robots), and I learned that after the project went to 500% overcost and 2 years behind schedule it was just cancelled and half the people fired. That confirms the doubts I had but doesn't make it right.

    2 years later, I was living in Spain, and the crisis started. At the time, I was in a public company on a project where total lack of correct risk management made the project late. Team managers started to ask everyone to come on week-ends to show upper management that we were putting effort on it. I came the first week-end, realized the TMs didn't show up and noone was doing anything, it was just showing off. I went to my boss and said I wouldn't come on any more week-end if it was going to be like this.

    Got fired in 15 days, just after Christmas. Being Spain in crisis, I spent 8 months unemployed, but I still don't regret standing up.

    I can tell you one thing: going on job interviews and being rejected while you have to borrow money to pay your rent gets you less depressed than working for a company that doesn't give a shit what you think.

    So the advice stands: stand up, risk being fired. They may even start taking you in account.

  • ted (unregistered)
    1. Agree to write own libraries
    2. The facade pattern
    3. ????
    4. PROFIT
  • Matt B (unregistered) in reply to Bushea
    Bushea:
    First project I was on, we all got called in, told we had six months to complete, otherwise the department would need to be "pruned". We worked weekends and late nights (three of us becoming dads for the first time while working on a laptop in the delivery room).. and just scraped the product out. This was just around the time of the 9/11 attacks in the US. Did we get a small bonus for the 12-month project we delivered in 6 months? No.. hell no. We all got 12% knocked off our salary because "times were hard", but obviously not too hard for the directors to get new company mercedes that year..

    Fast forward to next big project. We all got called in, told we had six months to complete otherwise the department would need to be "pruned". We worked weekends and late nights, through birthdays, anniversaries and divorces. We managed. This time we got a major bonus: 6% of our 12% lost salary in vouchers for the cheapest shop in town. Super.

    Fast forward to next big project. We all got called in, told we had six months.. I think you get the picture.

    What in the world would make you continue to agree to these working conditions after the first project?

    I wouldn't have stayed after the first threats of "pruning", I don't want to ever work in an environment where your management believes in fear as an incentive.

    (Granted, I'm a single guy with no dependents)

  • T.C (unregistered)

    I once worked for a company in an almost identical situation - except it was worse - not only were estimates slashed to the bone but no libraries were used except for logging errors (and there were lots of errors). When I asked why they had no libraries (specifically in-house) they said "Oh, that takes too much time. Were an Agile company!". Personally, I have always developed custom libraries, and used commerically or open source ones when appropriate. It has dramatically reduced development times for subsequent projects. Of course no one ever notices except me...all that ever happens is more work is put on your plate sigh

  • raggazzagga (unregistered) in reply to airdrik

    The WTFiness only starts when you realize how many projects actually do design their own protocols, drivers, whatever.

    I was about to say languages, too, but then I realized that a very small domain specific language can actually come in handy at times.

  • Sudo (unregistered) in reply to Pytry
    Pytry:
    The ironic thing is, I'm actually working with software that was was develooped EXACTLY as you described just now. Seriously, it has it's own custom language, compiler, IDE, and database!
    Is that actually ironic, or just unfortunate?
  • oheso (unregistered) in reply to boog
    boog:
    Aside from being an adult in a mature setting making his best effort to work with others (in spite of their obvious flaws) without resorting to childish hostility and name-calling?

    Yeah, what a wimp, right?

    My hero!

  • Sylver (unregistered) in reply to esoterik
    esoterik:
    ...

    He totally should have brought that up but in so many of these TDWTF stories the main character always seem to have a great lack testicular fortitude.

    Nicely stated.

    If Gary had a pair, he would have told Steve:

    • "Sit down. Now look, my estimate is for X months right? Why on earth did you lie to the customer?"
    • "But, if you do..."
    • "Show me. I know how to do this in X months, not in 6 weeks. If you want it in 6 weeks, you do it."
  • Charlie (unregistered)

    LOL, beautiful writing!

  • Ol' Bob (unregistered)

    I used to work with a guy for whom all estimates were "six weeks". New application? Six weeks. Major mods to another app? Six weeks. Change two lines in a single procedure? Six weeks. At first we thought it was because he wasn't much of an analyst...and, sure that was part of it. Then we decided that maybe he didn't know how to do time estimates...and, yeah, that was also part of it. Finally we realized that not only couldn't he analyze or estimate, but he also couldn't code worth sh*t...and that just about summed it up.

  • Blower (unregistered) in reply to DaSteve
    DaSteve:
    This comment will be funny in six weeks.

    I seriously doubt it....

  • eric bloedow (unregistered)

    actually, this made me think of that silly movie, "the money pit", where a young couple buys an old mansion and tries to renovate it, with a the help of a bunch of cut-rate contractors. every time they ask the contractors for an estimate, they always replied "two weeks". six MONTHS after they started, they were still saying "two weeks".

  • (nodebb) in reply to DaSteve

    Your "six weeks" may have taken around 13 and a half years, but you got there in the end!

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