- Feature Articles
- CodeSOD
- Error'd
-
Forums
-
Other Articles
- Random Article
- Alex's Soapbox
- Announcements
- Best of…
- Best of Email
- Best of the Sidebar
- Bring Your Own Code
- Coded Smorgasbord
- Mandatory Fun Day
- Off Topic
- Representative Line
- News Roundup
- Editor's Soapbox
- Software on the Rocks
- Souvenir Potpourri
- Sponsor Post
- Tales from the Interview
- The Daily WTF: Live
- Virtudyne
Admin
"Like"
Admin
The 65C02 was the CMOS version of the chip. I think was used in the Apple //c, not the Commodore line.
Admin
They are in 2-way sales...They sell the recruit the job, and the recruiter the recruit.
Thus, they make the recruit (who up until now has had a hard life delivering newspapers) think that this new workplace is going to be Google (perhaps a bad example). In the meantime they make the hirer (who has just lost their last "guru") think that they are getting the ultimate replacement who will be even better....
Admin
As an IT Trainer, the line I use a lot is "Letters after your name makes your CV more valuable so you are more likely to get an interview. At the interview it is your personality, experience and skills (measured in exams passed as well as projects completed) that will get you the job.".
I don't think that Computer Science has a lot of overlap with ICT. What I do and teach in my job doesn't have much to do with my CS papers. It does, however, have a lot to do with my Philosophy papers, especially the ethics and history of ethics.
I feel that University/College provides mental exercise of learning and researching; something of benefit to everyone.
Paraphrased from something Joe Celko said in his blog: In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. However, you still have to know the theory to be a good practitioner!
Admin
And 'There are no women in IT' is hardly a sexist joke. Really, just give me something more than diffuse anger - it's like you aren't even trying.
Admin
Programming is basically applied math. The math should help you a lot. Or be somewhat easier due to your experience.
Admin
I was #1 in my (large) calculus class, so it isn't like I don't have the first clue about math.
Admin
I seem to remember programming a Commodore 64 in 6502 assembler instead.
Admin
Admin
Really? I've had people with degrees in my team who were basically unable to deal with something that was outside their training.
They were great at dealing with stuff that everyone knew the answer to already however... but they lacked the ability to figure out new issues by themselves.
Having said that, a couple of the smartest people I know have degrees - but then again some of the best people at my work DON'T have degrees (industry certifications, yes).
Admin
Admin
Admin
Ever think, though, that might be the point? Uni may not (seem to) teach much, but it does attempt to separate those with an ability to pick things up (relatively independently) and those who can't learn no matter how hard you hit them over the head with it. The piece of paper shows you survived Uni, which implies that you have an ability to learn and adjust.
Withoug going too far into whether it works or not, a little bird once told me that the difference between a uni and other tertiary learning institutions (we have TAFE [Technical And Further Education] around here) is that (theoretically) uni teaches you to learn while TAFE teaches you specific skills. I think what they meant, is that you might learn all the ins and outs of JAVA in a TAFE course, but at Uni you will (should) learn fundamental programming concepts that you should be able to apply to any language (eg Data Structures).
So this means that people could be equally as competent in either, but having survived Uni they are (presumably) able to learn and adapt.
Personally, I place very little value on those pieces of paper.
Admin
'There are no women in IT, because they're too busy making me sandwiches' would be sexist.
Admin
He who can does, he who can't teaches. Such tight requirements are the result of shit teachers who (as you point out) don't know how to assess anything else...
Admin
$10 says that job didn't require a degree...
Admin
Only place I've seen Labview is here. Then again, maybe that says something.
Admin
You mean BizTalk is not the same thing as C#? Wow - no wonder I've been having difficulties....
Admin
Also the use of "leverage".
Admin
Didn't Alex have an article soap-box that their they tend to be the best type of IT people...
Admin
When I was a student just over 50% of the introductory CS classes were female as distict from the 2% in engineering. Oddly enough I've met far more female engineers in the workforce than women in IT. Where did they all go and why didn't they get IT jobs?
Admin
+5
Admin
Admin
1st year: About 50% female in the Math subjects, about 30-40% in the more CS subjects 2nd Year: Much the same in Math (if not more), about 20% in the CS type ones 3rd year: Still a similar balance in the Math subjects, very few left in the CS stuff
Most of them seemed to move over to other degrees. I don't think it was that they were incapable (or I don't think they were more incapable than most of the guys), I think they just didn't find it as exciting as they had expected. Frankly, I'm not sure how Psychology (which is what many of them went to) was any more exciting, but I guess girls and boys are different.
To be honest, many of them went to Law after first year - there was some sort of weird thing that if you didn't get into Law straight out of school you could do a year CS and apply again. F^&% knows why CS...
To begin a big rant, this is the major problem I have with a lot of the Equal Opportunities crap. EO is fine, but it means the best candidate gets the job. It does not mean the demographic in the workplace should model the real world. Different people (of different cultures, genders, religions etc) have different interests. Different interests mean that people develop different skills and abilities. It also means that people want to do different jobs. Apparently, people in Singapore (and I think some other parts of Asia) see prestige in Uniform, so any job with a uniform is prestigious (I think this includes police, working in hotels, train drivers etc). Equality doesn't mean a workplace should be 50% female and 50% male (or even close to that {who wants to be pedantic and point out that it's not quite an even 50-50 split in the 'real world'}).
The lack of women in IT is not necessarily because IT is a big boys club (which many people often seem to imply). The fact is, that not many women are interested in code. I think sexism has altered the workplace demographic more in aviation [possibly hospitality too](where the girls look after the pax and process tickets while the boys load planes and fly them) than in IT. It seems IT (especially Technical IT work) is simply not something a lot of women want to do. These days, we have a lot of women that come in as (non-technical) managers at different levels, and a few testers, but only 1 or 2 developers. I don't think it's sexism, I think you'd probably find that out of several hundred applicants, only a handful are women, so chances are that there is a better male candidate. That's not sexism - that's EO.
Admin
We may be few for now, but we're working to change that. And it really, really would help if we weren't met with "zomg a gurl" and "wut r u doing here?" comments in places who get their ideas about women from porn and dating sims.
Admin
It's a vicious cycle, more or less. IT is thought of as a "boys' club" (and more specifically a haven for antisocial creeps), so women get discouraged by parents and peers from pursuing the career there, which only cements the reputation.
Admin
Who's using streotypes now? Don't be a hypocrite.
Admin
I'm not saying everyone is like that, but vocal minorities tend to drown out voices of reason, and I've actually had to leave communities because of rampant hostility like this. I'm speaking from personal experience, not stereotypes.
Admin
Not sure what kind of Masters degree you got but in my 2nd year of undergrad we had much harder projects to do in Java.
Admin
[quote user="lucidfox"][quote user="PhD Me..."]It seems IT (especially Technical IT work) is simply not something a lot of women want to do. [/quote] Because women lack the magical man particles that spark interest in IT, obviously. [quote] WOW someone does have their knickers in a knot.
Maybe you didn't read my whole rant...different people have different likes and dislikes - this is driven by a load of things including gender. I never much wanted to play with dolls when I was little, and (admittedly I;m only speaking in my experience) there are not many women who want to be in IT. I'm not for a second suggesting this is a good or bad thing but, as far as I've seen it's how it is.
[quote user="lucidfox"] It's a vicious cycle, more or less. IT is thought of as a "boys' club" (and more specifically a haven for antisocial creeps), so women get discouraged by parents and peers from pursuing the career there, which only cements the reputation.[/quote]
I don't think my parents (couldn't comment on their peers, I simply don't know) ever discouraged my sisters from studying IT, but they preferred pursuing careers in other fields themselves (as did my brothers, for the record).
As for the vicious circle, I agree! If you go out looking for a fight, you'll find one. If you go out expecting to be shat on by some mystical 'boys club', you'll feel like you've been shat on by said fictional beast.
You (and quite probably some other) women obviously have a passion for IT, but it doesn't mean that massive numbers of girls are going through school desperate to secure technical roles.
Girls and boys are different. Some of these differences are obvious and some subtle. Some of these differences are in the way we think (this has been extensively studied by many people far brighter than me). It would be incredibly unusual to find any one field or career where there is even close to a 50/50 balance in interest from men and women, and I challenge you to find one. There are some fields that women enjoy working in (so you will get more female applicants) and some fields where men like working in (and so you will find more male applicants). It stands to reason, that in any field where there is more applications from a particular gender you would expect the majority of the time for the applicant to be of the majority gender.
Watch out for seagulls!! They're eyeing that big chip on your soldier!!
Admin
Vocal minorities drown out voices of reason....No why does that seem familiar???
Admin
Look! The boys can't use quote tags properly
Admin
You can't really depend on how they behave in that environment. The guy I studied with that was always poking at things, was getting burnt on furnace doors and got a burn of hit tongue from a bit of banana that had been soaking in liquid nitrogen was the guy we never thought would survive in even the mildest industrial workplace. Fast forward to now and I find that he's been working in an explosive factory for the last fifteen years.
Admin
I go out expecting people to be judged by their actions, not the gender they were assigned by the article author's obfuscation process.
Another example of a meaningless curiosity-stopper phrase.Yes, girls and boys are "different". So are thin people and fat people, black people and white people, Russians and Americans, straight and gay people, you name it. Simply saying "different" doesn't uncover the origin of the difference, or its exact nature and magnitude.
Where do you think the disinterest comes from? Social conditioning. I say that as someone who had to actively resist it through all her life. To learn to tell propaganda apart from neutral matter-of-fact statements. To detect and repel attempts to invade my brain with any kind of biased ideas - be they about politics, religion, or gender roles.
Admin
Perhaps the disinterest does come in part from social conditioning, however that seems to be only a small part of the story. There are loads of examples of 'traditionally male' work that are gradually heading toward more even gender distributions - Chefs, mailmen, policemen, bus drivers, truck drivers etc. Because of our 'Social Conditioning' these would all have been professions that girls were encouraged not to attempt, yet clearly the stigma associated has disappeared from those industries. Why is it, then, that we still have dwindling numbers of women in IT? The mysterious 'boys club' does not exist anywhere near an entry level (I'll concede there may be such things higher up the chain, although ironically there seem to be more women in various levels of management than in the technical roles). If we have managed to (even partially) shake these traditional taboos from other roles commonly filled by men (indeed, if we have managed to put significant numbers of women into management positions in IT) then I think there is an obvious reason why the technical roles are not being filled by the same swarms of women - for the most part, they don't want to. I'm not for a minute saying none of them want to (clearly you are among those that do), and I;m not for a minute saying that those that do are somehow less qualified, but I don't believe for a minute that 'social conditioning' has anything whatsoever to do with the lack of women in technical roles, given that other (perhaps even more traditionally male-dominated) roles are now being filled by increasing numbers of women.
Admin
I wonder whether the whole idea of IT being a "Boy's Club" might be a bit sexist.
Just sayin' an' all
Admin
Those who value degrees over ability generally are unable to judge the competence of the candidate. I've interviewed with persons who are trying to determine whether I can do the work -- but not often. There are also places where degrees are a disadvantage and regarded with suspicion and even hostility. TANJ
Admin
So what? Surely this is exactly the OP's point? We are all different in our own way. It doesn't make sense to try to calculate who is how different to someone else, but sometimes our differences affect our choices. Women are probably more inclined to some things than men and vice versa. Similarly, c developers might be more inclined to some things than java developers. Different races often have different physical characteristics, which might make them better at certain physical activities.
Difference is not a bad thing (life kind of relies on procreation which kind of relies on people being different). We all think differently. Some of that is nature, some is nurture. Perhaps the OP is wrong, and many women have been rejected by IT, but equally, he may be right and many might be shunning it.
Admin
Yes there are. One interviewed with us once. She looked like she'd stepped out of the pages of Playboy. The referral letter from her previous employer said something like "she's the best thing that ever happened to our IT department". Her last job was writing Windows virtual device drivers.
They decided not to employ her because she didn't have a degree and therefore wasn't sufficiently qualified.
(That's a true story).
Admin
Oh, it's easy to optimize Access - just give it a SQL Server, DB2 or Oracle back end.
Admin
This whole story rings a few bells for me as well! While I'm pretty sure I wasn't involved in the same company, it was pretty similar.
Same here. Problem is that I live in a country which is like Zambia when it comes to programming. Now, over the past 20 years, universities have effectively toned down the importance of implementing things because you know, in the USA you have to "be the best" to not fail your multi-million-USD project - and this does not involve programming, as "this is trivial". Problem is, the biggest project I was almost involved up to now was about 500k... and it was a national-wide initiative directly founded by the government. Go figure what a (>80% theorical) "degree" means in this context. No wonder my country is still stuck in the '70 when it comes to software industry.Admin
Did you get her number?
Admin
In that case, your cotton wool world is that way -->
Admin
If you aren't interested in optimising your algorithms, then it's probably not going to be much use. On the other hand if you want to write elegant code and be able to justify the results of performance and load testing when questioned "Why isn't it faster?" then I'd suggest the Maths component of the degree might come in handy.
Having said all that, there's only been a couple of occasions in the last 11 years since I graduated where that would have made a difference. The rest of the time, a crap solution delivered quickly ticks all the required boxes.
That in itself is probably connected to why there are so many WTF's keeping this website alive and kicking.
Admin
Admin
Hemosphere sounds pretty bloody.
Admin
Having been a professional programmer up to the time that I went back into education for a degree (to open up my job prospects), and having worked as a professional programmer since having earned a first with honours (with better pay), I can sympathise with those that insist that a degree is not necessary to design software, but only because in my opinion a degree course is the point in one's life at which one realises how little one previously knew. Just saying.
Admin
Admin
You haven't lived until you have enjoyed the stench of organizations infected with rank nepotism Cronies know they are not qualified for the jobs they hold, so they over compensate by 'acting' like they think someone competent would act, the result being comical but for the fact that everyone below them suffers in the organization, and goes down with the ship as a result.
Admin
Makes two of us. I doubt we're alone.
A lot of companies, where the initial process is handled by HR, tend to use degrees as an easy way of reducing the number of CVs they need to look at. It's a blunt tool and as precise as one.
Some companies - those where actual developers do the hiring or the HR department actually listen to them - tend to ignore degrees for anyone with more than a few years experience.
Seeing a job listed with "degree or equivalent experience" listed as a requirement makes me feel that there are at least some sane people left.