• Squid (unregistered) in reply to just me
    just me:
    nB:
    9 times out of 10 if nepotism is involved RUN. The other 1 time out of 10, don't forget to say "thank you" to your uncle.

    FTFY

    "Like"

  • Rich (unregistered) in reply to Jay
    Jay:

    The Commodore 64 actually had a 6502 chip

    I got that it was a typo.

    , and later models had an upgraded version called a 65C02
    Technically it was never a 65C02, but it had a 6510, which was a MOS6502 + (I think) some glue logic on the chip for the support chips (SID sound chip, the display chip).

    The 65C02 was the CMOS version of the chip. I think was used in the Apple //c, not the Commodore line.

  • oi (unregistered) in reply to frits
    frits:
    C-Octothorpe:
    What I am saying is that there tends to be almost a culture of lying where the best liars are rewarded.
    These people are in sales, no? Enough said...

    They are in 2-way sales...They sell the recruit the job, and the recruiter the recruit.

    Thus, they make the recruit (who up until now has had a hard life delivering newspapers) think that this new workplace is going to be Google (perhaps a bad example). In the meantime they make the hirer (who has just lost their last "guru") think that they are getting the ultimate replacement who will be even better....

  • (cs)

    As an IT Trainer, the line I use a lot is "Letters after your name makes your CV more valuable so you are more likely to get an interview. At the interview it is your personality, experience and skills (measured in exams passed as well as projects completed) that will get you the job.".

    I don't think that Computer Science has a lot of overlap with ICT. What I do and teach in my job doesn't have much to do with my CS papers. It does, however, have a lot to do with my Philosophy papers, especially the ethics and history of ethics.

    I feel that University/College provides mental exercise of learning and researching; something of benefit to everyone.

    Paraphrased from something Joe Celko said in his blog: In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. However, you still have to know the theory to be a good practitioner!

  • Franz Kafka (unregistered) in reply to Abso
    Abso:
    Franz Kafka:
    lucidfox:
    Sexist comments above aside (less than the usual "norm" for an IT site, I admit), I do wonder what the shy blonde was doing there. From the sound of it she didn't have a clue about the job, but if so, why did she apply for it in the first place?
    What sexist comments? Some people made a joke is all.
    And we all know that jokes can't be sexist.

    And 'There are no women in IT' is hardly a sexist joke. Really, just give me something more than diffuse anger - it's like you aren't even trying.

  • Franz Kafka (unregistered) in reply to xjoaniex
    xjoaniex:

    The Python wasn't so bad but all this freaking MATH is killing me.

    Programming is basically applied math. The math should help you a lot. Or be somewhat easier due to your experience.

  • Jeff (unregistered) in reply to Franz Kafka
    Franz Kafka:
    Programming is basically applied math. The math should help you a _lot_. Or be somewhat easier due to your experience.
    Please explain. I've been programming 30 years and I see no overlap between programming and math. Never used one thing from my algebra or statistics classes, to say nothing of calculus.

    I was #1 in my (large) calculus class, so it isn't like I don't have the first clue about math.

  • Lex (unregistered) in reply to java.lang.Chris;

    I seem to remember programming a Commodore 64 in 6502 assembler instead.

  • Peter (unregistered) in reply to foo
    foo:
    Peter:
    While you're fixing typos, could you perhaps consider fixing a few more?
    Know problem.
    Colour (I'm English) me embarrassed. Sorry!
  • Earp (unregistered) in reply to Craig

    Really? I've had people with degrees in my team who were basically unable to deal with something that was outside their training.

    They were great at dealing with stuff that everyone knew the answer to already however... but they lacked the ability to figure out new issues by themselves.

    Having said that, a couple of the smartest people I know have degrees - but then again some of the best people at my work DON'T have degrees (industry certifications, yes).

  • (cs) in reply to Franz Kafka
    Franz Kafka:
    And 'There are no women in IT' is hardly a sexist joke.
    Yes it is.
  • Homer (unregistered) in reply to Jeff
    Jeff:
    Franz Kafka:
    Programming is basically applied math. The math should help you a _lot_. Or be somewhat easier due to your experience.
    Please explain. I've been programming 30 years and I see no overlap between programming and math. Never used one thing from my algebra or statistics classes, to say nothing of calculus.

    I was #1 in my (large) calculus class, so it isn't like I don't have the first clue about math.

    Exactly. I was good in math, but it didn't fire me up. I was much better at languages (human & otherwise). In 30 years I've used a bit of algebra here & there. Otherwise, slamming data around doesn't take much math. Needless to say, I wasn't attracted to any of the few jobs that truly require advanced math, I'm talking standard business programming here.

  • Waldorf (unregistered) in reply to Mel
    Mel:
    Craig:
    jnewton:
    A degree is no substitute for experience but it does effectively multiply it. I found that when I got my first real job out of college I picked up concepts a lot quicker than my colleagues without degrees but more experience.

    Bingo! You understand fundamental computer and data processing concepts and how to solve problems rather than how to cut-and-paste code from examples you found on the web.

    I find it amusing in these conversations that the non-degreed people always pipe up with the "experience is more important" and "I don't have a degree and I'm doing just fine." A person can be a complete tool with or without a degree, but I find I can explain things a lot more quickly to someone who has a more broad education than "I wrote programs on my C64 when I was eleven."

    Well, I have a fairly patchy education record so maybe a different perspective. I did 1 year of Uni then completed a (rubbish) diploma at a private training institute, which opened the door to my first job. At the next job, I decided to finish the degree. I don't think I work or "understand concepts" better now than I did before the degree. Although I'm glad I did the degree (where I live now, people often include their qualifications everywhere - like their doorbells), I truly, honestly don't think it's made a blind bit of difference to my work or career.

    I think people are either able to pick things up easily, or they're not. A piece of paper doesn't change that. The study for it might - in that it's practice, but then someone who studies on their own or actually pushes themselves at work can gain that too.

    Ever think, though, that might be the point? Uni may not (seem to) teach much, but it does attempt to separate those with an ability to pick things up (relatively independently) and those who can't learn no matter how hard you hit them over the head with it. The piece of paper shows you survived Uni, which implies that you have an ability to learn and adjust.

    Withoug going too far into whether it works or not, a little bird once told me that the difference between a uni and other tertiary learning institutions (we have TAFE [Technical And Further Education] around here) is that (theoretically) uni teaches you to learn while TAFE teaches you specific skills. I think what they meant, is that you might learn all the ins and outs of JAVA in a TAFE course, but at Uni you will (should) learn fundamental programming concepts that you should be able to apply to any language (eg Data Structures).

    So this means that people could be equally as competent in either, but having survived Uni they are (presumably) able to learn and adapt.

    Personally, I place very little value on those pieces of paper.

  • (cs) in reply to lucidfox
    lucidfox:
    Franz Kafka:
    And 'There are no women in IT' is hardly a sexist joke.
    Yes it is.
    No it isn't! (I used an exclamation point, do I win?)

    'There are no women in IT, because they're too busy making me sandwiches' would be sexist.

  • Johnny works with one hammer (unregistered) in reply to Paul
    Paul:
    A degree is just a filter to prove you are willing to put up with 2/4/more years of bullshit. Those who spend their professional lives swimming in bullshit want to screen out any applicants that won't lie down and take it.

    This from someone who has a Masters. For some strange reason money seems to gravitate toward bullshitters, and since I can tolerate their crap, I'm happy to take their money.

    Yeah, I learned a few random things along the way, usually not related to what the class actually claimed to teach. But ultimately I got about three weeks worth of knowledge out of six years in classes.

    The rest you can learn much better on your own. If you have any self-starter motivation at all you come into most classes knowing more than the instructor. I mean the semester project for a Masters level Java class at one of the "top schools in the country" was a data entry program (no web interface) in which you were required to create exactly four classes: one for the menu, one for the entry screen, one for the update screen, and one for delete. Anything that varied from this pattern, the instructor didn't know how to grade.

    He who can does, he who can't teaches. Such tight requirements are the result of shit teachers who (as you point out) don't know how to assess anything else...

  • Johnny works with one hammer (unregistered) in reply to golddog
    golddog:
    C-Octothorpe:
    StudentEternal:
    I have actually had good experiences with recruiters, but you do have to be careful. I have had to rebuff a lot of recruiters who were trying to put me in positions I was not qualified for, but I hate to see the whole industry tarred with their brush after working with some really good ones.

    I'm not saying it's the whole industry as I too have had good experiences and I continue to work with the ones I trust. What I am saying is that there tends to be almost a culture of lying where the best liars are rewarded. I've seen it, heard it and been burned by it and I'm sorry to say, is undeniable. Anyone who has contracted for more than 3 years will tell you this.

    Honestly, I wish I had your luck, but I've dealt with recruiters from both small (1-5 people) and large (1000+ emps) firms and lying seems to be the great leveler. Whether they lie about the potential company, the role, the rate, what their cut is, whatever... Except for the few I mentioned above that I still work with on a regular basis, most recruiters lie about something.

    And don't even get me started on the ones who call you up once every three months saying "omg, there iz dis crzy role for 12 months at 1 bajillion dollars an hour, need you to fill out this skills matrix that will take 2-3 hours while you're still at work because the submission deadline is this afternoon!!!". You won't hear from them again until the next "omg role!"...

    I got a call from someone claiming to be a headhunter a while back. This guy happened to have a quite thick Indian accent, so there was some communication difficultly, but I finally got him to give me a company name and address so I could check the commute.

    Sure enough, at that address there was a sign for the large telecommunications company he claimed to be representing. Not too bad a commute, we can talk further.

    We have a bit of a discussion, then he tells me that this company requires a unique identifier for me in order to submit my information. Thus, he'd need my SSN.

    Wait, what? Uh...yeah...I don't have it right here...I'll get right back to you with that.

    $10 says that job didn't require a degree...

  • Shuah (unregistered) in reply to Larry
    Larry:
    Anon:
    Stay in school and maybe you can avoid the horrible fate of having to write LabVIEW "code".
    Ummm, your mileage may differ, but the only place I've seen LabVIEW is in university research projects, usually not affiliated with any discipline remotely akin to software development, but where they nevertheless are arrogant enough to think they can teach kids to program. As in, we'll teach you how to classify rocks, and also how to write real-time control software for a machine that can slice you in half without breaking a sweat. Version control? Test environment? Huh??

    Only place I've seen Labview is here. Then again, maybe that says something.

  • Adam (unregistered) in reply to C-Octothorpe
    C-Octothorpe:
    Ralph:
    lucidfox:
    Sexist comments above aside (less than the usual "norm" for an IT site, I admit), I do wonder what the shy blonde was doing there. From the sound of it she didn't have a clue about the job, but if so, why did she apply for it in the first place?
    I can answer that in one word! Recruiter.

    You beat me to it...

    I've got a strong .Net background, yet I somehow ended up in a BizTalk interview because it's a line in my resume from a contract about 5 years ago... The recruiter failed to mention that they were looking for a senior BizTalk dev with only a "good understanding of C# and .Net".

    Man, was that interview awkward... And short...

    You mean BizTalk is not the same thing as C#? Wow - no wonder I've been having difficulties....

  • (cs) in reply to dgvid
    dgvid:
    The recruiter's use of "Ciao" might have been sufficient to scare me away from further inquiry.

    Also the use of "leverage".

  • Edmond (unregistered) in reply to Spoe
    Spoe:
    Then there are people broadly educated who never obtained a degree.

    Take me: 220+ undergraduate credit hours from five different programs (Computer Science, Physics, Math, Geography, Electrical Engineering) but since I never completed some of the general studies requirements (never took communications, for example, nor fulfilled the foreign language requirement) I was never awarded a degree.

    You'd be perfect in IT - never stick at anything for too long, move on in less than a year... Seems to be a pre-requisite at most of the places I've been (or maybe they're just horrible, horrible places where noone can stand to be for long)

    Didn't Alex have an article soap-box that their they tend to be the best type of IT people...

  • db (unregistered) in reply to lucidfox
    lucidfox:
    Sexist comments above aside (less than the usual "norm" for an IT site, I admit), I do wonder what the shy blonde was doing there. From the sound of it she didn't have a clue about the job, but if so, why did she apply for it in the first place?
    A clueless recruiter trying to fit her into the wrong job probably sent her or a nasty one playing the "two duds and one inflated star" game.

    When I was a student just over 50% of the introductory CS classes were female as distict from the 2% in engineering. Oddly enough I've met far more female engineers in the workforce than women in IT. Where did they all go and why didn't they get IT jobs?

  • (cs) in reply to ThePants999
    ThePants999:
    Having a degree myself, I don't understand why anyone insists on a degree. It was fun and all, but spending that time working would have made me better suited for most jobs than the degree did.

    +5

  • jizz (unregistered) in reply to lucidfox
    lucidfox:
    Franz Kafka:
    And 'There are no women in IT' is hardly a sexist joke.
    Yes it is.
    I think his point is it's not a joke...
  • PhD Me... (unregistered) in reply to db
    db:
    lucidfox:
    Sexist comments above aside (less than the usual "norm" for an IT site, I admit), I do wonder what the shy blonde was doing there. From the sound of it she didn't have a clue about the job, but if so, why did she apply for it in the first place?
    A clueless recruiter trying to fit her into the wrong job probably sent her or a nasty one playing the "two duds and one inflated star" game.

    When I was a student just over 50% of the introductory CS classes were female as distict from the 2% in engineering. Oddly enough I've met far more female engineers in the workforce than women in IT. Where did they all go and why didn't they get IT jobs?

    1st year: About 50% female in the Math subjects, about 30-40% in the more CS subjects 2nd Year: Much the same in Math (if not more), about 20% in the CS type ones 3rd year: Still a similar balance in the Math subjects, very few left in the CS stuff

    Most of them seemed to move over to other degrees. I don't think it was that they were incapable (or I don't think they were more incapable than most of the guys), I think they just didn't find it as exciting as they had expected. Frankly, I'm not sure how Psychology (which is what many of them went to) was any more exciting, but I guess girls and boys are different.

    To be honest, many of them went to Law after first year - there was some sort of weird thing that if you didn't get into Law straight out of school you could do a year CS and apply again. F^&% knows why CS...

    To begin a big rant, this is the major problem I have with a lot of the Equal Opportunities crap. EO is fine, but it means the best candidate gets the job. It does not mean the demographic in the workplace should model the real world. Different people (of different cultures, genders, religions etc) have different interests. Different interests mean that people develop different skills and abilities. It also means that people want to do different jobs. Apparently, people in Singapore (and I think some other parts of Asia) see prestige in Uniform, so any job with a uniform is prestigious (I think this includes police, working in hotels, train drivers etc). Equality doesn't mean a workplace should be 50% female and 50% male (or even close to that {who wants to be pedantic and point out that it's not quite an even 50-50 split in the 'real world'}).

    The lack of women in IT is not necessarily because IT is a big boys club (which many people often seem to imply). The fact is, that not many women are interested in code. I think sexism has altered the workplace demographic more in aviation [possibly hospitality too](where the girls look after the pax and process tickets while the boys load planes and fly them) than in IT. It seems IT (especially Technical IT work) is simply not something a lot of women want to do. These days, we have a lot of women that come in as (non-technical) managers at different levels, and a few testers, but only 1 or 2 developers. I don't think it's sexism, I think you'd probably find that out of several hundred applicants, only a handful are women, so chances are that there is a better male candidate. That's not sexism - that's EO.

  • (cs) in reply to jizz
    jizz:
    lucidfox:
    Franz Kafka:
    And 'There are no women in IT' is hardly a sexist joke.
    Yes it is.
    I think his point is it's not a joke...
    "Few" is not the same as "none".

    We may be few for now, but we're working to change that. And it really, really would help if we weren't met with "zomg a gurl" and "wut r u doing here?" comments in places who get their ideas about women from porn and dating sims.

  • (cs) in reply to PhD Me...
    PhD Me...:
    It seems IT (especially Technical IT work) is simply not something a lot of women want to do.
    Because women lack the magical man particles that spark interest in IT, obviously.

    It's a vicious cycle, more or less. IT is thought of as a "boys' club" (and more specifically a haven for antisocial creeps), so women get discouraged by parents and peers from pursuing the career there, which only cements the reputation.

  • (cs) in reply to lucidfox
    lucidfox:
    jizz:
    lucidfox:
    Franz Kafka:
    And 'There are no women in IT' is hardly a sexist joke.
    Yes it is.
    I think his point is it's not a joke...
    "Few" is not the same as "none".

    We may be few for now, but we're working to change that. And it really, really would help if we weren't met with "zomg a gurl" and "wut r u doing here?" comments in places who get their ideas about women from porn and dating sims.

    Who's using streotypes now? Don't be a hypocrite.

  • (cs) in reply to frits

    I'm not saying everyone is like that, but vocal minorities tend to drown out voices of reason, and I've actually had to leave communities because of rampant hostility like this. I'm speaking from personal experience, not stereotypes.

  • Pr0gramm3r (unregistered) in reply to Paul
    Paul:
    A degree is just a filter to prove you are willing to put up with 2/4/more years of bullshit. Those who spend their professional lives swimming in bullshit want to screen out any applicants that won't lie down and take it.

    This from someone who has a Masters. For some strange reason money seems to gravitate toward bullshitters, and since I can tolerate their crap, I'm happy to take their money.

    Yeah, I learned a few random things along the way, usually not related to what the class actually claimed to teach. But ultimately I got about three weeks worth of knowledge out of six years in classes.

    The rest you can learn much better on your own. If you have any self-starter motivation at all you come into most classes knowing more than the instructor. I mean the semester project for a Masters level Java class at one of the "top schools in the country" was a data entry program (no web interface) in which you were required to create exactly four classes: one for the menu, one for the entry screen, one for the update screen, and one for delete. Anything that varied from this pattern, the instructor didn't know how to grade.

    Not sure what kind of Masters degree you got but in my 2nd year of undergrad we had much harder projects to do in Java.

  • PhD Me... (unregistered) in reply to lucidfox

    [quote user="lucidfox"][quote user="PhD Me..."]It seems IT (especially Technical IT work) is simply not something a lot of women want to do. [/quote] Because women lack the magical man particles that spark interest in IT, obviously. [quote] WOW someone does have their knickers in a knot.
    Maybe you didn't read my whole rant...different people have different likes and dislikes - this is driven by a load of things including gender. I never much wanted to play with dolls when I was little, and (admittedly I;m only speaking in my experience) there are not many women who want to be in IT. I'm not for a second suggesting this is a good or bad thing but, as far as I've seen it's how it is.

    [quote user="lucidfox"] It's a vicious cycle, more or less. IT is thought of as a "boys' club" (and more specifically a haven for antisocial creeps), so women get discouraged by parents and peers from pursuing the career there, which only cements the reputation.[/quote]

    I don't think my parents (couldn't comment on their peers, I simply don't know) ever discouraged my sisters from studying IT, but they preferred pursuing careers in other fields themselves (as did my brothers, for the record).

    As for the vicious circle, I agree! If you go out looking for a fight, you'll find one. If you go out expecting to be shat on by some mystical 'boys club', you'll feel like you've been shat on by said fictional beast.
    You (and quite probably some other) women obviously have a passion for IT, but it doesn't mean that massive numbers of girls are going through school desperate to secure technical roles.

    Girls and boys are different. Some of these differences are obvious and some subtle. Some of these differences are in the way we think (this has been extensively studied by many people far brighter than me). It would be incredibly unusual to find any one field or career where there is even close to a 50/50 balance in interest from men and women, and I challenge you to find one. There are some fields that women enjoy working in (so you will get more female applicants) and some fields where men like working in (and so you will find more male applicants). It stands to reason, that in any field where there is more applications from a particular gender you would expect the majority of the time for the applicant to be of the majority gender.

    Watch out for seagulls!! They're eyeing that big chip on your soldier!!

  • Johnny (unregistered) in reply to lucidfox
    lucidfox:
    I'm not saying everyone is like that, but vocal minorities tend to drown out voices of reason, and I've actually had to leave communities because of rampant hostility like this. I'm speaking from personal experience, not stereotypes.

    Vocal minorities drown out voices of reason....No why does that seem familiar???

  • Leanne (not really, but I might be) (unregistered) in reply to PhD Me...
    PhD Me...:
    lucidfox:
    PhD Me...:
    It seems IT (especially Technical IT work) is simply not something a lot of women want to do.
    Because women lack the magical man particles that spark interest in IT, obviously.
    WOW someone does have their knickers in a knot. Maybe you didn't read my whole rant...different people have different likes and dislikes - this is driven by a load of things including gender. I never much wanted to play with dolls when I was little, and (admittedly I;m only speaking in my experience) there are not many women who want to be in IT. I'm not for a second suggesting this is a good or bad thing but, as far as I've seen it's how it is.
    lucidfox:
    It's a vicious cycle, more or less. IT is thought of as a "boys' club" (and more specifically a haven for antisocial creeps), so women get discouraged by parents and peers from pursuing the career there, which only cements the reputation.

    I don't think my parents (couldn't comment on their peers, I simply don't know) ever discouraged my sisters from studying IT, but they preferred pursuing careers in other fields themselves (as did my brothers, for the record).

    As for the vicious circle, I agree! If you go out looking for a fight, you'll find one. If you go out expecting to be shat on by some mystical 'boys club', you'll feel like you've been shat on by said fictional beast.
    You (and quite probably some other) women obviously have a passion for IT, but it doesn't mean that massive numbers of girls are going through school desperate to secure technical roles.

    Girls and boys are different. Some of these differences are obvious and some subtle. Some of these differences are in the way we think (this has been extensively studied by many people far brighter than me). It would be incredibly unusual to find any one field or career where there is even close to a 50/50 balance in interest from men and women, and I challenge you to find one. There are some fields that women enjoy working in (so you will get more female applicants) and some fields where men like working in (and so you will find more male applicants). It stands to reason, that in any field where there is more applications from a particular gender you would expect the majority of the time for the applicant to be of the majority gender.

    Watch out for seagulls!! They're eyeing that big chip on your soldier!!

    Look! The boys can't use quote tags properly

  • db (unregistered) in reply to George
    George:
    ThePants999:
    Having a degree myself, I don't understand why anyone insists on a degree. It was fun and all, but spending that time working would have made me better suited for most jobs than the degree did.

    Agreed. It sort of helped me get my first job, but what I learnt in my first week (or even day there) was far more valuable than anything I learnt during my degree. We all need a baseline to start at, but even reasonably basic experience is often more valuable than that little piece of paper. I have worked with degree (and post-grad) qualified people who are absolute drop-kicks, and I've worked with "unqualified" people who are awesome (and I've worked with people in both groups who are the opposite too). I'm frightened to think that some of the people I went to Uni with (many who probably scored higher than I did in most subjects) would be let loose on the world.

    You can't really depend on how they behave in that environment. The guy I studied with that was always poking at things, was getting burnt on furnace doors and got a burn of hit tongue from a bit of banana that had been soaking in liquid nitrogen was the guy we never thought would survive in even the mildest industrial workplace. Fast forward to now and I find that he's been working in an explosive factory for the last fifteen years.

  • (cs) in reply to PhD Me...
    PhD Me...:
    As for the vicious circle, I agree! If you go out looking for a fight, you'll find one. If you go out expecting to be shat on by some mystical 'boys club', you'll feel like you've been shat on by said fictional beast.

    I go out expecting people to be judged by their actions, not the gender they were assigned by the article author's obfuscation process.

    Girls and boys are different.
    Another example of a meaningless curiosity-stopper phrase.

    Yes, girls and boys are "different". So are thin people and fat people, black people and white people, Russians and Americans, straight and gay people, you name it. Simply saying "different" doesn't uncover the origin of the difference, or its exact nature and magnitude.

    Where do you think the disinterest comes from? Social conditioning. I say that as someone who had to actively resist it through all her life. To learn to tell propaganda apart from neutral matter-of-fact statements. To detect and repel attempts to invade my brain with any kind of biased ideas - be they about politics, religion, or gender roles.

  • PhD Me (unregistered) in reply to lucidfox
    lucidfox:
    PhD Me...:
    As for the vicious circle, I agree! If you go out looking for a fight, you'll find one. If you go out expecting to be shat on by some mystical 'boys club', you'll feel like you've been shat on by said fictional beast.

    I go out expecting people to be judged by their actions, not the gender they were assigned by the article author's obfuscation process.

    Girls and boys are different.
    Another example of a meaningless curiosity-stopper phrase.

    Yes, girls and boys are "different". So are thin people and fat people, black people and white people, Russians and Americans, straight and gay people, you name it. Simply saying "different" doesn't uncover the origin of the difference, or its exact nature and magnitude.

    Where do you think the disinterest comes from? Social conditioning. I say that as someone who had to actively resist it through all her life. To learn to tell propaganda apart from neutral matter-of-fact statements. To detect and repel attempts to invade my brain with any kind of biased ideas - be they about politics, religion, or gender roles.

    So on the one hand you agree that there are infinitely many differences between individuals, on the other you believe that because you feel as though your love of IT was stifled, there must be thousands of others in your predicament?

    Perhaps the disinterest does come in part from social conditioning, however that seems to be only a small part of the story. There are loads of examples of 'traditionally male' work that are gradually heading toward more even gender distributions - Chefs, mailmen, policemen, bus drivers, truck drivers etc. Because of our 'Social Conditioning' these would all have been professions that girls were encouraged not to attempt, yet clearly the stigma associated has disappeared from those industries. Why is it, then, that we still have dwindling numbers of women in IT? The mysterious 'boys club' does not exist anywhere near an entry level (I'll concede there may be such things higher up the chain, although ironically there seem to be more women in various levels of management than in the technical roles). If we have managed to (even partially) shake these traditional taboos from other roles commonly filled by men (indeed, if we have managed to put significant numbers of women into management positions in IT) then I think there is an obvious reason why the technical roles are not being filled by the same swarms of women - for the most part, they don't want to. I'm not for a minute saying none of them want to (clearly you are among those that do), and I;m not for a minute saying that those that do are somehow less qualified, but I don't believe for a minute that 'social conditioning' has anything whatsoever to do with the lack of women in technical roles, given that other (perhaps even more traditionally male-dominated) roles are now being filled by increasing numbers of women.

  • Mr Boy (unregistered) in reply to lucidfox
    lucidfox:
    PhD Me...:
    As for the vicious circle, I agree! If you go out looking for a fight, you'll find one. If you go out expecting to be shat on by some mystical 'boys club', you'll feel like you've been shat on by said fictional beast.

    I go out expecting people to be judged by their actions, not the gender they were assigned by the article author's obfuscation process.

    I wonder whether the whole idea of IT being a "Boy's Club" might be a bit sexist.

    Just sayin' an' all

  • CBM (unregistered) in reply to ThePants999

    Those who value degrees over ability generally are unable to judge the competence of the candidate. I've interviewed with persons who are trying to determine whether I can do the work -- but not often. There are also places where degrees are a disadvantage and regarded with suspicion and even hostility. TANJ

  • AWOP (unregistered) in reply to lucidfox
    lucidfox:
    [ Yes, girls and boys are "different". So are thin people and fat people, black people and white people, Russians and Americans, straight and gay people, you name it. Simply saying "different" doesn't uncover the origin of the difference, or its exact nature and magnitude.

    So what? Surely this is exactly the OP's point? We are all different in our own way. It doesn't make sense to try to calculate who is how different to someone else, but sometimes our differences affect our choices. Women are probably more inclined to some things than men and vice versa. Similarly, c developers might be more inclined to some things than java developers. Different races often have different physical characteristics, which might make them better at certain physical activities.

    Difference is not a bad thing (life kind of relies on procreation which kind of relies on people being different). We all think differently. Some of that is nature, some is nurture. Perhaps the OP is wrong, and many women have been rejected by IT, but equally, he may be right and many might be shunning it.

  • Dave (unregistered) in reply to Jon
    Jon:
    There are no blonde chicks in IT.

    Yes there are. One interviewed with us once. She looked like she'd stepped out of the pages of Playboy. The referral letter from her previous employer said something like "she's the best thing that ever happened to our IT department". Her last job was writing Windows virtual device drivers.

    They decided not to employ her because she didn't have a degree and therefore wasn't sufficiently qualified.

    (That's a true story).

  • Darth Paul (unregistered) in reply to Bruce W
    Bruce W:
    "The CEO smiled broadly" -- when did he enter the story?

    "Optimizing Access" -- the ulimate oxymoron.

    __ Ed: whoops, should have been The Guru. Fixed!

    Oh, it's easy to optimize Access - just give it a SQL Server, DB2 or Oracle back end.

  • UserK (unregistered) in reply to java.lang.Chris;

    This whole story rings a few bells for me as well! While I'm pretty sure I wasn't involved in the same company, it was pretty similar.

    java.lang.Chris;:
    I love the "must have a degree" insistence of some firms.
    Same here. Problem is that I live in a country which is like Zambia when it comes to programming. Now, over the past 20 years, universities have effectively toned down the importance of implementing things because you know, in the USA you have to "be the best" to not fail your multi-million-USD project - and this does not involve programming, as "this is trivial". Problem is, the biggest project I was almost involved up to now was about 500k... and it was a national-wide initiative directly founded by the government. Go figure what a (>80% theorical) "degree" means in this context. No wonder my country is still stuck in the '70 when it comes to software industry.
  • Yanman (unregistered) in reply to Dave
    Dave:
    Jon:
    There are no blonde chicks in IT.

    Yes there are. One interviewed with us once. She looked like she'd stepped out of the pages of Playboy. The referral letter from her previous employer said something like "she's the best thing that ever happened to our IT department". Her last job was writing Windows virtual device drivers.

    They decided not to employ her because she didn't have a degree and therefore wasn't sufficiently qualified.

    (That's a true story).

    Did you get her number?

  • Martin (unregistered) in reply to lucidfox
    lucidfox:
    Franz Kafka:
    And 'There are no women in IT' is hardly a sexist joke.
    Yes it is.

    In that case, your cotton wool world is that way -->

  • Martin (unregistered) in reply to Homer
    Homer:
    Jeff:
    Franz Kafka:
    Programming is basically applied math. The math should help you a _lot_. Or be somewhat easier due to your experience.
    Please explain. I've been programming 30 years and I see no overlap between programming and math. Never used one thing from my algebra or statistics classes, to say nothing of calculus.

    I was #1 in my (large) calculus class, so it isn't like I don't have the first clue about math.

    Exactly. I was good in math, but it didn't fire me up. I was much better at languages (human & otherwise). In 30 years I've used a bit of algebra here & there. Otherwise, slamming data around doesn't take much math. Needless to say, I wasn't attracted to any of the few jobs that truly require advanced math, I'm talking standard business programming here.

    If you aren't interested in optimising your algorithms, then it's probably not going to be much use. On the other hand if you want to write elegant code and be able to justify the results of performance and load testing when questioned "Why isn't it faster?" then I'd suggest the Maths component of the degree might come in handy.

    Having said all that, there's only been a couple of occasions in the last 11 years since I graduated where that would have made a difference. The rest of the time, a crap solution delivered quickly ticks all the required boxes.

    That in itself is probably connected to why there are so many WTF's keeping this website alive and kicking.

  • Level 2 (unregistered) in reply to lucidfox
    lucidfox:
    Franz Kafka:
    And 'There are no women in IT' is hardly a sexist joke.
    Yes it is.
    But is it a joke on the men or on the women?
  • rfoxmich (unregistered)

    Hemosphere sounds pretty bloody.

  • mtj (unregistered)

    Having been a professional programmer up to the time that I went back into education for a degree (to open up my job prospects), and having worked as a professional programmer since having earned a first with honours (with better pay), I can sympathise with those that insist that a degree is not necessary to design software, but only because in my opinion a degree course is the point in one's life at which one realises how little one previously knew. Just saying.

  • (cs) in reply to Mel
    Mel:
    I think people are either able to pick things up easily, or they're not. A piece of paper doesn't change that. The study for it might - in that it's practice, but then someone who studies on their own or actually pushes themselves at work can gain that too.
    And how do you prove to a potential employer that you have the discipline to "push yourself at work" and do the necessary to succesfully deliver? I have an official piece of paper that states I have what it takes to complete difficult tasks such as getting a master's degree.
  • Nepostism, the creepy Ozark side of Cronyism (unregistered)

    You haven't lived until you have enjoyed the stench of organizations infected with rank nepotism Cronies know they are not qualified for the jobs they hold, so they over compensate by 'acting' like they think someone competent would act, the result being comical but for the fact that everyone below them suffers in the organization, and goes down with the ship as a result.

  • (cs) in reply to java.lang.Chris;
    java.lang.Chris;:
    I love the "must have a degree" insistence of some firms. I have no formal programming qualifications, but have been programming since the age of eleven - first in 6052 assembler (Commodore 64), then 68k assembler and C (Atari ST) before becoming a professional programmer. Even with fifteen years experience in the industry, I still get turned down for jobs before the interviewing stage thanks to not having a degree!

    Makes two of us. I doubt we're alone.

    A lot of companies, where the initial process is handled by HR, tend to use degrees as an easy way of reducing the number of CVs they need to look at. It's a blunt tool and as precise as one.

    Some companies - those where actual developers do the hiring or the HR department actually listen to them - tend to ignore degrees for anyone with more than a few years experience.

    Seeing a job listed with "degree or equivalent experience" listed as a requirement makes me feel that there are at least some sane people left.

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