• redyouch (unregistered) in reply to Frank

    When you list your home you can elect to not have a lockbox on the door. It is your sole discretion how you sell your house...

  • Pete (unregistered)

    When I was house hunting in 2005 in the Atlanta market they were using digital lock boxes where the Realtor had a PDA or Blackberry with an IR port they'd hold up to the lock box to unlock it.

    My Realtor told me they downloaded the codes for the houses they planned to visit and the code along with a unique id identifying the Realtor were sent to the box so that the Realtor selling the house could later download the info to track who saw the house and when.

  • Rossignol_user (unregistered) in reply to Frank
    Frank:
    Quite honestly, this is a ethically questionable code challenge.

    You're not only revealing how these lock boxes work (Which, yes, would be commonly available information), but you're announcing "to the world" that they're simple to break into, with a solution to how to do it.

    And you think this is not ALREADY known by the bad guy ? Are you for real ? The only person not knowing this are probably the plebe thinking they are secure behind those. Announcing it to the world is a great way to make them understand the truth. The bad guy, well, don't care they already know, or have other way to break in , so...

  • Too Easy (unregistered)

    So the whole challenge is reinventing the De Bruijn Sequence?

    (Look it up on Wikipedia, this is a relatively simple mathematical combinatorics topic)

  • mwb (unregistered) in reply to Godmode

    we had one of those locks on the math department computer lab when I was at uni. they changed the the combo once at the start of spring break; really pissed off everybody who was still around... so we printed out the 10K combinations, posted them next to the door, and at became a collaborative project to try combinations and cross them off if they didn't work.

    looking back, I suppose the department could have changed the combo to one of they already-tried sequences if they'd been paying attention. but that didn't happen.

  • (cs) in reply to Matthijs Kooijman
    Matthijs Kooijman:
    > π (pi) will open any door. Can you prove that?
    http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/risks/21.42.html#subj5
  • IMSoP (unregistered) in reply to webhamster
    webhamster:
    Obviously alot of people here have never bought or sold a house.

    Or maybe just never bought or sold a house in your part of the world? Not everywhere has the same rules and customs, you know...

    webhamster:
    The selling agent and the buying agent are not always the same person. If your agent finds a house that suits your criteria on MLS he/she will make an appointment with the agent with whom the house is listed for a viewing.

    Thank you, however, for explaining this. Here in the UK, you have to view, and buy, the house through the agent who has been instructed to sell it. This requires the buyer to visit multiple estate agents (what Americans would call "realtors") if they want to see the full range of property available.

    Confusingly, the seller can also "instruct" multiple estate agents to market their house, with the one that closes the sale earning the commission. Even so, the selling estate agent(s) would generally be given the key(s) directly by the homeowner, which they would permanently store in their office(s).

    [I think this is all correct - I admit I've never done it, so other Brits may want to correct me!]

    The only time I've seen one of these key boxes was for a holiday cottage, where the directions for finding the property included the code for the box (presumably different for each visitor). The management company could then set the box to the pre-arranged code the morning we were due to arrive, and didn't have to wait there to let us in.

  • Andy (unregistered) in reply to db48x

    Yup - I have seen iPhone (or some such) based systems now, that require the realtor to place their device next to the 'box'. It then communicates with the central office, recording who was granted access to the house, and when.

  • Aaron (unregistered)

    Nobody even uses these anymore. Current lockboxes are digital and require RSA keys.

  • Vidar (unregistered) in reply to Frank

    It's far from ethically questionable. Nothing stops the bad guys from doing it, and let's face it - security through obscurity might work if you're the sole user of a product. But when the product is mass-marketed and used to protect valuables, it won't work.

  • Jonathan Wilson (unregistered) in reply to Frank

    If the world knows about security flaws, it encourages manufacturers to stop selling insecure devices and to make devices more secure.

  • Foobar (unregistered)

    Look into de Bruijn sequences. For a 4 digit lock with decimal digits, 10003 keypresses will unlock any lock.

  • The REO guy (unregistered) in reply to Aaron
    Aaron:
    Nobody even uses these anymore. Current lockboxes are digital and require RSA keys.

    Source? Obviously not the real world. Each local Realtor (tm) board sets their own rules and access customs. I personally place several hundred of these boxes that nobody uses anymore each year.

  • Mr.'; Drop Database -- (unregistered)
    [image] You know who you are.
  • Adam (unregistered) in reply to Frank

    Not at all. It is a basic mathematical problem. Not to mention, the academic methods behind it are clear.

    No different to discussing exploits in software and discussing how they work. That isn't questionable at all.

    Closer to the point, it is not one bit questionable to gain information on how to pick a lock, nor would it be wrong to discuss the method how to or the design of the locks.

    Definitely tin foil hat.

  • Ian B (unregistered)

    I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but around here, the real estate business has standardized on electronic lockboxes that are opened by an agent's PDA (current incarnation is Palm-based), that not only provides access to the key, but logs the showing agent's visit, which eliminates the pesky problem of a pile of business cards on the kitchen counter.

  • PeteN (unregistered) in reply to mr X
    mr X:
    That's the same system as the door entry on my workplace! I've been wondering how short a sequence would be enough to brute-force it for ages.

    It's not Rocket Science

    These things are NOT sequence sensitive if it has been in for a while just look at the buttons the 4 or 5 most worn excluding the C if fitted are the numbers you want all the C button does is clears any previous attempt good or bad .

  • PeteN (unregistered) in reply to damage

    .....No repeats would be a bit strange, why wouldn't there be repeats?

    The answer is quite simple they can not have a repeated number if you look at how they work each number or letter can only be used once you can increase or decrease then number of digits but repeat a digit nada

  • (cs) in reply to db48x
    Quite honestly, this is a ethically questionable code challenge...
    It's not ethically questionable at all...
    It seems to me this whole discussion is irrelevant. If I wanted to gain entry to {any} house, I would find a vulnerable point (poorly operating window, open back door) or simply break a window. It is woeful that people rely on those annoying Auto Alarms (which everyone ignores when it squeals) when an automobile is about 30% glass. If I want to steal something from your car I would break a window, grab it and run.
  • me (unregistered)

    Thank God for the APDB, i'll have this shit banged out in no time with a stored procedure. I think those get written as .txt files via the query editor (Edit.com) right?

  • James Allmond (unregistered) in reply to db48x
    1. Go to hardware store
    2. Buy 5 pound sledge hammer
    3. smash lock box with hammer
    4. retrieve key

    When my Mom was in real estate (before most of you were born, but same lock box), that's how they were gotten into every time someone forgot the combination...worked every time, no coding required...

  • Quirkafleeg (unregistered) in reply to Frank
    Frank:
    Quite honestly, this is a ethically questionable code challenge.

    […]

    Think about it - you're selling your house. You're not home most of the time (Work), and neighbours are used to seeing people coming and going into your home. And then you find a website which is announcing a contest, for fun, on how to get a key for your house.

    Strike anyone else as questionable / bad idea?

    Relative to the idea of estate agents (which is, presumably, what you mean by ‘realtors’) allowing others, in your absence, into what is still your home?

    No, not really.

  • Quirkafleeg (unregistered) in reply to Godmode
    Godmode:
    WoW, we had almost the same history told at a lecture of discrete mathematics - it appeared, that some time ago we had key lock boxes working in the same pattern in our faculty building (IT one ;D). Fortunately, they changed them to ones that reset after pushing 4 digits (;
    Press 1≤n≤3 digits, walk away.
  • ann (unregistered) in reply to Frank

    As a seller, you set the parameters with a realtor/listing agent,they may WANT you to have a lock box, but you are under NO obligation to do this. You can ask to have someone from the listing office be present at your showings and unlock the door to your dwelling with a key that only they have, and not out have a lockbox. It's a good idea to do some research on selling homes before ever listing, there are lots of things to be aware of.

  • Parc (unregistered) in reply to Frank

    Nobody around here uses these boxes any more. They use a rotating cipher type box with a key that changes daily.

  • Jeff Clement (unregistered) in reply to Frank

    This attack narrows the maximum number of digits you would have to type from 161,200, if you keyed each 4 digit combination, to about 10,000. I wouldn't be all that worried about someone spending the time necessary to type in 10,000 digits on the keypad when a shoe/brick is WAY faster.

    Unless I'm missing something here.

  • Scott (unregistered) in reply to Frank

    As the saying goes: "Security through obscurity is no security at all." In addition, the seller absolutely has a say in what type of lock box is used. They can provide their own, or select an agent based on the type of lock used. You also have to look at what is being 'secured'. If you have a shell of a house, you don't need a high end lock box. Anyone wanting to break in can go through a window, the lock box is just there to deter the crime of convenience.

  • (cs)

    When I was 9, my family was looking for a house. At the first house, I spent some time looking at the lockbox, and at the second house, I beat the realtor to the lockbox and opened it for her. Third house, it was a different brand (each listing agent apparently made their own choice for lockbox). By the time we were done looking at houses, I knew all the brands in the area, and was able to open them almost as quickly as the realtor if she knew the combo off-hand and I didn't. (More often than not, she had problems remembering the combos, and then she'd always be slower.)

    A couple of years later, when my parents were looking at selling their house, they went to the same realtor - who was surprised when they said they wouldn't accept one of those lockboxes on their house. It was apparent my demonstration had not registered with her that even a 9 year-old could break into those locks quickly enough nobody would be suspicious about the activity. She countered with, "But we're using this newer version which is more secure," and I countered with opening it in under two minutes. (So, yes, more secure - but not enough.)

    For what it's worth, my technique did not involve looking for use - that only works if the lockbox is old enough to show wear, and only if the combinations aren't occasionally changed (that is, it works most of the time. Sigh.) It did rely on the fact that, as a mechanical lockbox, any tumblers were moved by the force of the button being pushed. All it would've taken to design a better mechanical lockbox would be to have an extra set of tumblers, and make any press spin the same number of tumblers the same amount. That is, a button that would normally not spin any tumblers would spin all of the extra tumblers. One that would normally spin just one tumbler would spin all but one of the extras, plus the one it would've spun. Oh, and, as one of the posters above noted, don't have the tumblers be visible.

    Oh, and whether it's buttons or cylinders, if it provides feedback either when moving to a correct number or when moving away from a correct number (more often than not, it was both, back in the day), it doesn't matter if they change the combo every hour - it can be broken within the time someone having trouble remembering the number might spend to try to get it right.

  • Mr.'; Drop Database -- (unregistered) in reply to Quirkafleeg
    Quirkafleeg:
    Godmode:
    WoW, we had almost the same history told at a lecture of discrete mathematics - it appeared, that some time ago we had key lock boxes working in the same pattern in our faculty building (IT one ;D). Fortunately, they changed them to ones that reset after pushing 4 digits (;
    Press 1≤n≤3 digits, walk away.
    They beep after an incorrect code is entered, so it's not that confusing unless the next person is deaf. In that case, they can press "clear" and try again.
  • Payne (unregistered) in reply to Frank

    So you'd rather let the emperor keep strutting around with no clothes on?

  • Ryan (unregistered) in reply to db48x

    Not to be critical or anything about your program request, but the list of EVERY possible combination for a lock box like this one has already been done.

    I would venture to say that 80-90% of all combos are only 3 to 4 numbers long. Given that, you're only going to have to crunch through about 160 combos before you 'get it' (on average.) I do this at my job all the time. They use simplex locks to secure their office doors and when I need to fix their PC and they're not there.. (damn! triple word score! for using their, they're and there correctly!)

  • Matt (unregistered) in reply to db48x

    You wouldn't be HIDING information by not presenting this. You just wouldn't be going out of your way to REVEAL IT. Is it incredibly, glaringly public domain? Okay, whatever. But if so... why are you presenting it? Wouldn't we already know it? Look, I get the mentality here. LOL THESE PEOPLE ARE TARDS LOOK AT HOW SIMPLE IT IS TO ROB THESE SIMPLETONS GOSH THE TARDS. Yes. There is no law against presenting information that demonstrates someone else's stupidity. However, when you create an opportunity for someone who, quite frankly, might be a TARD to just pick up that little piece of broken ethics and use it to rob, well, that's wrong.

     In short, quit being a TARD.  Stop making it easy for TARDs to rob people.
  • Torgeir N (unregistered) in reply to MyKey_

    same, only in bash :)

    for i in seq 0 9999; do printf %04d $i; done

  • Quirkafleeg (unregistered) in reply to Torgeir N
    Torgeir N:
    same, only in bash :)
    for i in `seq 0 9999`; do printf %04d $i; done
    echo {00..9999} | tr -d ' '
    (note: bashism, probably a zshism too)
  • Earlz (unregistered) in reply to db48x

    Does it even matter though? I mean if someone really wanted in the house they could either break a window, or just learn enough about locksmithing to create a key for the lock (extremely skilled lock smiths can do it in 3 tries)

    Locks only keep honest people honest.

  • Wonderful! (unregistered)

    How splendid! I set up exactly this problem for myself some years ago, and I still haven't been able to solve it properly. (Can't say it has occupied all my awake hours, to be honest.)

    Thanks to one of your ambitious readers I've finally found the ultimate solution for the problem, and will attempt to understand it.

    Hooray!

    //Johan, Sweden

  • SomeWhiteGuy (unregistered) in reply to Frank

    Hate to burst your bubble here, but most realtors that are worth anything now use digital keys that they have to pay monthly for. If you're selling your house through someone who doesn't, find another realtor.

  • Chutney Wagon (unregistered)

    If these locks work anything like the mechanical one we have in the office, the rules are:

    1. No number can be used twice in the combination
    2. The combination can be entered in any order
    3. As soon as a number not in the combination is pressed, the lock 'resets', so an invalid number cannot be present in the middle of a code, ie 12345 will not work for a combination of 1245.

    So for a 4 digit combination with 10 keys, the maximum number of different ways 4 digits can be picked is:

    10 x 9 x 8 x 7 = 5040 possible combinations.

    Now to take advantage of the sequences, a clever way of exploring the 'best fit' of this set of combinations (probably with some padding for ones that won't fit nicely) will need to be found (or just brute force it and try every possible way of fitting them!). This best fit will only need calculating once for a given lock.

    I'd be willing to bet that the sequence of numbers is not much more than 6000 or so.

    The lock we have actually has an X,Y and a Z key that can form part of the combination too, so the sequence would be longer.

  • Zed (unregistered) in reply to Frank

    "The constitutional protection accorded to the freedom of speech and of the press is not based on the naive belief that speech can do no harm but on the confidence that the benefits society reaps from the free flow and exchange of ideas outweigh the costs society endures by receiving reprehensible or dangerous ideas."

    If these lockboxes are simple to break into, announcing the fact to the world should be beneficial since the number of people attempting to use them for security surely vastly eclipses the number of people attempting to break them. Thus of the people of the world receiving the message, more will be in a position to seek alternate and superior security because of it than will be in the position to take nefarious advantage of it.

  • Kiba Day (unregistered)

    I did this a long time ago. It's actually quite simple to get a reasonably (but not optimally) small string. I can't find a code example at the moment.

    You see, answering machines have often have a remote access code, usually two digits printed on the bottom. They are only looking for their code, so if you dial 1837534 and the code was 37, you'll be let in. And then you can do anything from change the greeting to listen to messages to (on many systems) remotely monitor audio.

    so just play back the string converted to dtmf and well...

  • iJoost (unregistered) in reply to db48x

    I guess "brute forcing" really means "use a hammer" in this case?

  • sleepynate (unregistered) in reply to db48x

    I agree. If someone wanted to figure out all the permutations to a lock in an attempt to break in to it, they probably would. Would asking "what's the shortest chained permutation of the digits 0-9 that covers all possible 4-digit combinations" be ethically questionable? Probably not.

    Now, mentioning that it only takes about 200lbs of pressure to kick in the average deadbolt and that the best spot is directly below the nob or bolt... that would probably be a bit more ethically questionable.

  • Your Name (unregistered) in reply to grizz
    grizz:
    Now, instead of just a (relatively) small number of actual criminals, the group of "bad guys" grows incrementally to include bored kids and casual vandals.
    ftfy
  • Remark Osmoc (unregistered)

    I found this article AFTER cracking one this morning. I was trying to determine the math of the box. Mathematically they are very insecure.

    There are 10 'buttons' or numbers. For any given combo, you either press each button or you don't. In other words, the combo either has a 9 in it or it doesn't. Repetition and order don't matter.

    To boil it down you have 10 buttons, each either pressed or unpressed. This means you have 2^10 possibilities or 1024.

    However, most people will chose a 4 digit pin for whatever reason. I got a little lost in the math, but of the 1024 possibilities, about 120 have exactly 4 numbers pressed.

    I started on the box today with brute force, 1234, 1235, 1236, 1237, 1238, 1239, 1230, 1345, 1346, ..., 5678, 5679, 5670, 6789, 6780, 7890.

    I got the right code in under 4 minutes.

  • (cs) in reply to db48x

    It's not ethically questionable at all. Questionable means "being subject to question." You are claiming that it cannot even be questioned at all.

    Your horse, it is very high.

  • anon (unregistered)

    the result is called 'the shortest common superstring'

  • MN Realtor (unregistered)

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    Is not right because the combination can't have a repeating number. I use electronic lock boxes. Only Real estae professionals are allowed to have the key to access them and it keeps record of who's key was used to open the lock box and at what time.

    Jacob Holub - MN Realtor www.JacobHolub.com

  • MN Realtor (unregistered)

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    9878997979887989799879998888988998989999

    Is not right because the combination can't have a repeating number. I use electronic lock boxes. Only Real estae professionals are allowed to have the key to access them and it keeps record of who's key was used to open the lock box and at what time.

    Jacob Holub - MN Realtor www.JacobHolub.com

  • rwhenderson (unregistered) in reply to MN Realtor

    Ha ha this is great. I love the debate about whether it's ethical" to post this info. My take: IT'S THE INTERNET STUPID. Trying to keep the genie in the bottle (particularly with silly low-tech security topics like this one in the internet age is naive and futile.

    I came looking for this very subject because I wanted to know how secure my lockbox really is. And I got the answer! Forewarned is forearemed. Thanks for the posts.

    PS. I haven't seen a realtor using a mechanical lockbox for a long tome now. Those digital ones are way more secure and provide for tracking everyone who comes and goes -- all in all a huge improvement. IMHO a realtor who still uses a mechanical lockbox is in the dark ages and should be avoided.

  • Kyle C (unregistered) in reply to Frank

    This IS technically an ethical issue. However it is only morally UNethical if you realize this before-hand.

    For example, by entering the string "how to get a key from a lockbox" into either Altavista or Bing search engines, this article appears on the first page. Therefore, by some standards, you're attempt at denouncing this has actually promoted this activity just as much or more.

    I am also concerned about "computer ethics," and these days, it boils down to either trying to change for the better and making bad things easier to find, or leaving bad things alone and hoping they will never be seen. It gets really tricky.

    Though, mostly, when taken in context by a professional mind, these types of activities promote safety the most.

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