The Daily WTF: Curious Perversions in Information Technology

dkf · 2012-01-30 Reply Admin

bad_management:
So you want me to throw away 20 years of expertise because "it's just another language". Really? Real skills in this profession are being reduced to fads. And that's sad.

Once you know your first 5 languages it gets easier. Really. More ways to think about a problem makes life so much simpler, even if you then go and use those insights in a way that is unexpected (e.g., doing strict functional programming in C, or doing demonstrably-correct programming against a consistent interface in PHP).

2012-01-30 Reply Admin

dkf:
bad_management:
So you want me to throw away 20 years of expertise because "it's just another language". Really? Real skills in this profession are being reduced to fads. And that's sad.
Once you know your first 5 languages it gets easier. Really. More ways to think about a problem makes life so much simpler, even if you then go and use those insights in a way that is unexpected (e.g., doing strict functional programming in C, or doing demonstrably-correct programming against a consistent interface in PHP).

Depends what 5 languages they are, and how they differ.

(for the Original Poster) As with a lot of things in IT, eventually something's gotta give. Fads are all beaut and fine, and all sorts of drag'n'drop programming is the new Assembly Code, but eventually this bubble will burst. A lot of this fad programming oversimplifies programming so that any monkey can be trained to appear to do it. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) sooner or later systems will grind to a halt, because these fads will deomnstrate that trained monkeys that don't understand write bloated code (which is further bloated with several levels of simplification). On that day, people will once again see the value in properly trained, highly experienced programmers who can actually think as well as cut code.

Well I can dream, can't I?

havokk · 2012-01-30 Reply Admin

bad_management:
I have been told multiple times by "management" that a programming language is a programming language...they are all the same, just rendered differently.

Do these managers actually speak multiple languages?

Also, not languages in the same group, completely different languages. For an English speaker, learning German is orders of magnitude easier than learning Chinese.

How about these for analogies? Going from C++ (OOP/Procedural) to Java (OOP/Procedural) would be going from English to German. Different language but in the same language family. Both still have nouns, verbs, sentences. Going from C++ to F# (Functional) would be going from English to Mandarin. Different assumptions (for example Mandarin is heavy on inference rather than statement). Going from C++ to SQL (set-based relational algebra) would be like going from English to honey bee dance. Still a way of communicating information but completely different.

Psyckers · 2012-01-30 Reply Admin

Flingsher:
dkf:
bad_management:
So you want me to throw away 20 years of expertise because "it's just another language". Really? Real skills in this profession are being reduced to fads. And that's sad.
Once you know your first 5 languages it gets easier. Really. More ways to think about a problem makes life so much simpler, even if you then go and use those insights in a way that is unexpected (e.g., doing strict functional programming in C, or doing demonstrably-correct programming against a consistent interface in PHP).
Depends what 5 languages they are, and how they differ.
(for the Original Poster) As with a lot of things in IT, eventually something's gotta give. Fads are all beaut and fine, and all sorts of drag'n'drop programming is the new Assembly Code, but eventually this bubble will burst. A lot of this fad programming oversimplifies programming so that any monkey can be trained to appear to do it. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) sooner or later systems will grind to a halt, because these fads will deomnstrate that trained monkeys that don't understand write bloated code (which is further bloated with several levels of simplification). On that day, people will once again see the value in properly trained, highly experienced programmers who can actually think as well as cut code.

Well I can dream, can't I?

You are absolutely right with that one. I am dreaming the same dream man. Perhaps we should all go back to C and the command line and work on something useful like an App to show where all the bloating is on modern source codes.

RichP · 2012-01-30 Reply Admin

havokk:
(snip...) Going from C++ to SQL (set-based relational algebra) would be like going from English to honey bee dance. Still a way of communicating information but completely different.

I am so happy I read through all the comments! That's a priceless way to explain the difference.

Kuba · 2012-01-30 Reply Admin

havokk:
Going from C++ to F# (Functional) would be going from English to Mandarin. Different assumptions (for example Mandarin is heavy on inference rather than statement).

F# is an impure language, you can pretty much program in it like you would in a very old style of C++, in purely imperative style. It'll stink as far as anyone who knows ML is concerned, but it'll work. If you're into modern C++ and decently written libraries, then they are closer to F#/ML than you'd think. After using, say, eigen, it's pretty easy to go to Octave or even F#.

Matt Westwood · 2012-01-31 Reply Admin

Flingsher:
dkf:
bad_management:
So you want me to throw away 20 years of expertise because "it's just another language". Really? Real skills in this profession are being reduced to fads. And that's sad.
Once you know your first 5 languages it gets easier. Really. More ways to think about a problem makes life so much simpler, even if you then go and use those insights in a way that is unexpected (e.g., doing strict functional programming in C, or doing demonstrably-correct programming against a consistent interface in PHP).
Depends what 5 languages they are, and how they differ.
(for the Original Poster) As with a lot of things in IT, eventually something's gotta give. Fads are all beaut and fine, and all sorts of drag'n'drop programming is the new Assembly Code, but eventually this bubble will burst. A lot of this fad programming oversimplifies programming so that any monkey can be trained to appear to do it. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) sooner or later systems will grind to a halt, because these fads will deomnstrate that trained monkeys that don't understand write bloated code (which is further bloated with several levels of simplification). On that day, people will once again see the value in properly trained, highly experienced programmers who can actually think as well as cut code.

Well I can dream, can't I?

You're new here, aren't you?

Matt Westwood · 2012-01-31 Reply Admin

havokk:
bad_management:
I have been told multiple times by "management" that a programming language is a programming language...they are all the same, just rendered differently.
Do these managers actually speak multiple languages?
Also, not languages in the same group, completely different languages. For an English speaker, learning German is orders of magnitude easier than learning Chinese.

How about these for analogies? Going from C++ (OOP/Procedural) to Java (OOP/Procedural) would be going from English to German. Different language but in the same language family. Both still have nouns, verbs, sentences. Going from C++ to F# (Functional) would be going from English to Mandarin. Different assumptions (for example Mandarin is heavy on inference rather than statement). Going from C++ to SQL (set-based relational algebra) would be like going from English to honey bee dance. Still a way of communicating information but completely different.

Goes the other way. Going from SQL to C++ is like going from honey bee dance to English. And I still haven't met any honeybees who could speak English properly.

2012-01-31 Reply Admin

dkf:
bad_management:
So you want me to throw away 20 years of expertise because "it's just another language". Really? Real skills in this profession are being reduced to fads. And that's sad.
Once you know your first 5 languages it gets easier. Really. More ways to think about a problem makes life so much simpler, even if you then go and use those insights in a way that is unexpected (e.g., doing strict functional programming in C, or doing demonstrably-correct programming against a consistent interface in PHP).

Completely agree. Learning Haskell was one of the bet things I ever did for my skill. Some things are easier/faster/more efficiently solved with a functional approach. Lets not forget how Cpp is actually marrying in all those elements now anyway.

2012-01-31 Reply Admin

The true WTF is pairing up with a "senior" programmer.

2012-01-31 Reply Admin

true:
That said, there is a massive paradigm shift from C to C++. Someone who uses C++ (properly) should be able to learn new-fangled programs like Java or C# relatively easily. A C developer who uses C++ would be well advised to actually learn C++ properly before moving on to anything that actually requires OO knowledge instead of just supporting it....

A common mistake is to assume that the opposite transition, C++ to C, is easy. Writing high quality idiomatic C (of you sort you might/should use to write bits of operating systems or device drivers, perhaps) is something that many C++ devs feel they can manage, but generally fail miserably.

dkf · 2012-01-31 Reply Admin

Flingsher:
Depends what 5 languages they are, and how they differ.

I was originally intending to write “paradigms” instead of “languages”, but thought it was too high-falutin'. My point was that the more ways know how to think about a problem, the more likely you are to find one where the problem turns out to be not too difficult. All abstractions conceal; that's both their great strength and their great weakness, and you can't have one without the other.

2012-01-31 Reply Admin

Function UnLockRecord(strTableName) As boolean // snip Unlockrecord = false End Function

Forgive my VB ignorance.. case invariant?

2012-01-31 Reply Admin

joe the evoker:
Function UnLockRecord(strTableName) As boolean // snip Unlockrecord = false End Function
Forgive my VB ignorance.. case invariant?

Yes, but the IDE would usually format keywords to a standard writing and identifiers to how they were written at definition.

2012-01-31 Reply Admin

The Real WTF is the scam about getting the magazine for free. Once you click the 'Outside US' link to be able to fill out your address, all free options disappeared.

(Or maybe the real WTF is me who wished to check out a magazine found in a TDWTF article in the first place)

PedanticCurmudgeon · 2012-01-31 Reply Admin

Fred:
So you write "if 3=a" instead of "if a=3"?

Whenever I see someone write

if (3==a)

on the theory that they'll get an error if they write

if (3=a)

by mistake, I tell them: "Here's a nickel, kid. Go buy yourself a real programming language."

TheSHEEEP · 2012-01-31 Reply Admin

PedanticCurmudgeon:
Fred:
So you write "if 3=a" instead of "if a=3"?
Whenever I see someone write
if (3==a)
on the theory that they'll get an error if they write
if (3=a)
by mistake, I tell them: "Here's a nickel, kid. Go buy yourself a real programming language."

That one might very well produce an error... if not directly (some languages have read-only properties), then due to something happening inside the wrongly entered if-statement.

Of course, many people still believe that the line "if (a=3)" itself is an error. And with some compilers, it might as well be true...

2012-01-31 Reply Admin

Flingsher:
dkf:
bad_management:
So you want me to throw away 20 years of expertise because "it's just another language". Really? Real skills in this profession are being reduced to fads. And that's sad.
Once you know your first 5 languages it gets easier. Really. More ways to think about a problem makes life so much simpler, even if you then go and use those insights in a way that is unexpected (e.g., doing strict functional programming in C, or doing demonstrably-correct programming against a consistent interface in PHP).
Depends what 5 languages they are, and how they differ.
(for the Original Poster) As with a lot of things in IT, eventually something's gotta give. Fads are all beaut and fine, and all sorts of drag'n'drop programming is the new Assembly Code, but eventually this bubble will burst. A lot of this fad programming oversimplifies programming so that any monkey can be trained to appear to do it. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) sooner or later systems will grind to a halt, because these fads will deomnstrate that trained monkeys that don't understand write bloated code (which is further bloated with several levels of simplification). On that day, people will once again see the value in properly trained, highly experienced programmers who can actually think as well as cut code.

Well I can dream, can't I?

I share your dream but I think it is DOOOMED to remain a dream because computor processing speed is ramping up faster than the compounded "bloated code + levels of simplification" can slow it down. So the users dont care that their application is several layers of sh!t when all they see is nice and shiny with "OK" response time. It could be sooooooo much better.

2012-01-31 Reply Admin

That's exactly what I've had to do this year at my job. And I've discovered that my brain likes set-based relational algebra a lot more than C++.

2012-01-31 Reply Admin

The Great Lobachevsky:
That's exactly what I've had to do this year at my job. And I've discovered that my brain likes set-based relational algebra a lot more than C++.

Blablabla i'm a bad coder.

Anyone who really thinks .NET is an improvement over C++ should be shot on sight.

Obviously the entry barrier for .Net is low and that enables anyone to code .. but what's the point seriously ?

It's like drupal and all the noob stuff ... don't mix real tools (a hammer) with easy tools (homer's eletric hammer of Edison doom).

C-Octothorpe · 2012-01-31 Reply Admin

L.:
The Great Lobachevsky:
That's exactly what I've had to do this year at my job. And I've discovered that my brain likes set-based relational algebra a lot more than C++.

Blablabla i'm a bad coder.

Anyone who really thinks .NET is an improvement over C++ should be shot on sight.

Obviously the entry barrier for .Net is low and that enables anyone to code .. but what's the point seriously ?

It's like drupal and all the noob stuff ... don't mix real tools (a hammer) with easy tools (homer's eletric hammer of Edison doom).

I'm not sure what makes you sound more retarded: the fact that you think .Net is a language, the fact that you think .Net (or C#) is a set-based lanuage, or the really obvious fact that despite the above two errors in your logic you still feel comfortable spewing condemnation on someone who you think compared the two or said one is superiour to the other, and never actually did.

Your reading comprehension needs to improve, as well as a healthy dose of anger management...

2012-01-31 Reply Admin

Nagesh:
This is .NET 1.0 shop in Hyderabad. Obviously, we are move to 2.0 ASAP.
[image]

Man, this stuff is really hard to jerk off to. Been at it for hours, now. Got to find another site.

2012-01-31 Reply Admin

ArcLight:
Flingsher:
dkf:
bad_management:
So you want me to throw away 20 years of expertise because "it's just another language". Really? Real skills in this profession are being reduced to fads. And that's sad.
Once you know your first 5 languages it gets easier. Really. More ways to think about a problem makes life so much simpler, even if you then go and use those insights in a way that is unexpected (e.g., doing strict functional programming in C, or doing demonstrably-correct programming against a consistent interface in PHP).
Depends what 5 languages they are, and how they differ.
(for the Original Poster) As with a lot of things in IT, eventually something's gotta give. Fads are all beaut and fine, and all sorts of drag'n'drop programming is the new Assembly Code, but eventually this bubble will burst. A lot of this fad programming oversimplifies programming so that any monkey can be trained to appear to do it. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) sooner or later systems will grind to a halt, because these fads will deomnstrate that trained monkeys that don't understand write bloated code (which is further bloated with several levels of simplification). On that day, people will once again see the value in properly trained, highly experienced programmers who can actually think as well as cut code.

Well I can dream, can't I?

I share your dream but I think it is DOOOMED to remain a dream because computor processing speed is ramping up faster than the compounded "bloated code + levels of simplification" can slow it down. So the users dont care that their application is several layers of sh!t when all they see is nice and shiny with "OK" response time. It could be sooooooo much better.

Desktop PC's getting much much faster, but I think even if server capacity is increasing, companies are trying to keep servers longer so there is a chance (however small) that the OP's dream will happen - because companies will insist on running new fangled cool stuff on servers that barely support it.

but we'll see.

2012-01-31 Reply Admin

Ru:
true:
That said, there is a massive paradigm shift from C to C++. Someone who uses C++ (properly) should be able to learn new-fangled programs like Java or C# relatively easily. A C developer who uses C++ would be well advised to actually learn C++ properly before moving on to anything that actually requires OO knowledge instead of just supporting it....

A common mistake is to assume that the opposite transition, C++ to C, is easy. Writing high quality idiomatic C (of you sort you might/should use to write bits of operating systems or device drivers, perhaps) is something that many C++ devs feel they can manage, but generally fail miserably.

I don't know that the point was that it's any easier to go one way or the other...just that a C++ programmer may be better equipped to move into a more modern OO lingo than someone who comes from a non-OO background (and has used C++ without understanding anything about Objects let a lone OOP)

Then again, I suppose you didn't say he made that mistake, merely that it is a common mistake, so I shut uip now....

2012-02-01 Reply Admin

ArcLight:
I share your dream but I think it is DOOOMED to remain a dream because computor processing speed is ramping up faster than the compounded "bloated code + levels of simplification" can slow it down. So the users dont care that their application is several layers of sh!t when all they see is nice and shiny with "OK" response time. It could be sooooooo much better.

No one will read this or care however.

The 'computers are getting faster so who cares about effeciency' only counts for desktop business apps and back end server stuff where the cost of the hardware is a small percentage of the development costs. Meaning Java + SQL enabled business software for small to medium sized companies.

But when your power budget to run servers is larger than what you spend on programmers, that will cause you to rethink things. Running rough numbers, 1 MW of power costs the same as 10 code monkeys. Same issue with mass produced consumer products, save a $1 per unit X 1 million units shipped is worth hiring a couple of extra code monkeys.

SQLDave · 2012-02-01 Reply Admin

WTF is a motherload?

2012-02-01 Reply Admin

[image]

That's the local LISP shop.

hoodaticus · 2012-02-01 Reply Admin

PedanticCurmudgeon:
Fred:
So you write "if 3=a" instead of "if a=3"?
Whenever I see someone write
if (3==a)
on the theory that they'll get an error if they write
if (3=a)
by mistake, I tell them: "Here's a nickel, kid. Go buy yourself a real programming language."

This isn't C++ dude.

hoodaticus · 2012-02-01 Reply Admin

Spirit:
That's the local LISP shop.

Here's your typical C# shop: [image]

2012-02-01 Reply Admin

ParkinT:
Now that is Quality Assurance!

Lol, you said "ass", roflcopter. "ASS" lol. Funniest and most mature post ever seen, I can't get over it.

2012-02-01 Reply Admin

bad_management:
I have been told multiple times by "management" that a programming language is a programming language...they are all the same, just rendered differently. Gee, thanks for trivializing my job for me. And because I never wanted to go from "C" or "C++" on Unix/Linux to Tcl/Python/Ruby/.Net/Current_Fad_Language, I was considered a bad programmer with a narrow mind. I don't know how many times I've heard "use this as an opportunity to expand your horizons". Yep, going from C or C++ to one of these new-fangled languages is indeed a completely different world and managers just don't get it. So you want me to throw away 20 years of expertise because "it's just another language". Really? Real skills in this profession are being reduced to fads. And that's sad.

It's certainly true that programming in ASP.NET with VB is a lot different from programming a desktop app in Java, and both are very different from doing embedded programming in assembly language, and a manager who doesn't understand this probably isn't qualified to manage an IT department.

But that said, why would you not want the opportunity to learn another language now and then? Do you WANT to get stuck in a rut for the rest of your life? Sure, some new languages are fads that will blow away when yet a newer, shinier one comes along. But others represent real progress. Do you want to be the assembly programmer who refuses to try those fancy new-fangled compiler languages? Do you want to be the guy who insists that USB drives are just a fad and punch cards are coming back?

After 15 years programming in Java, I just got an opportunity to take a new job programming in VB. And I jumped at it. It's a chance to learn a whole raft of new things.

OF COURSE figuring out which new language or tool is a passing fad and which is the wave of the future requires insight. But how will you evaluate the new stuff if you refuse to even look at it?

2012-02-01 Reply Admin

Here's your typical Javascript shop.

[image]

2012-02-01 Reply Admin

It's not that I don't acknowledge new languages. In fact, I know several more than just "C" and "C++" -- but I have carefully chosen those languages. I follow the philosophy of "master what you know, study what you don't know" and think management should encourage programmers under them to master their skills before moving on to the next fad language that comes up. But perhaps I'm just old fashioned and don't get bored with mastering things like modern generations do. I'm still learning new things about these "outdated" languages ("C", "C++") and developing them on Unix/Linux every day. It could take someone an entire year just to properly master "make". But all of this is a lost art. People just don't seem to have that kind of attention span anymore, and management is just as guilty for not properly using the skills of the people under them. Hire some new kid to do Python (or .NET in this case, or whatever). Don't force me to do it and expect me to master it in the 2-month project timeline you've shoved down my throat.

Coyne · 2012-02-01 Reply Admin

suscipere:
Coyne:
Howdy! Here's our .NET studio in Wyoming! [image]
(That's a joke, son! The picture is from Wikimedia Commons.)

reelee?

Shore is!

This is our real .NET studio:

[image]

Y'all come back now, y'hear?

2012-02-02 Reply Admin

bad_management:
It's not that I don't acknowledge new languages. In fact, I know several more than just "C" and "C++" -- but I have carefully chosen those languages. I follow the philosophy of "master what you know, study what you don't know" and think management should encourage programmers under them to master their skills before moving on to the next fad language that comes up. But perhaps I'm just old fashioned and don't get bored with mastering things like modern generations do. I'm still learning new things about these "outdated" languages ("C", "C++") and developing them on Unix/Linux every day. It could take someone an entire year just to properly master "make". But all of this is a lost art. People just don't seem to have that kind of attention span anymore, and management is just as guilty for not properly using the skills of the people under them. Hire some new kid to do Python (or .NET in this case, or whatever). Don't force me to do it and expect me to master it in the 2-month project timeline you've shoved down my throat.

The best programmers I know claim that a language is just a language. If you cannot see the logic in the problem, but only how to code around it in a language, then you're really not worth your salt. Programming is about problem solving, not memorizing the entire std library and C grammar.

2012-02-03 Reply Admin

Paul Neumann:
The best programmers I know claim that a language is just a language. If you cannot see the logic in the problem, but only how to code around it in a language, then you're really not worth your salt. Programming is about problem solving, not memorizing the entire std library and C grammar.

full ack. i have seen several people learning new languages in weeks. even fresh out of university with only having learned java. of course the more different the syntax the longer it takes. lisp takes some time to get used to but once past all the parentheses it is not much different either. haskell takes more effort to read, and don't even think about languages like J.

btw: rosettacode.org is an excellent place to compare languages

greetings, eMBee.

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