• (cs)

    I see that Tim already mentioned sharing Excel workbooks. I missed that the first time I read the comments...

  • kevin (unregistered)

    execute management != executive management but who knows, maybe that was intentional...

  • epic fail get (unregistered) in reply to noehch
    noehch:
    Oh, God...

    This is horrifically remeniscient of a manager from a previous retail job.

    ...

    (...ass boss...retail...I'm sure you can guess where...)

    Oh dear.

    I had a boss like that back when I was working for a certain art-and-craft supply store whose name begins with `M'.

    Among other management cluelessness I ran into, I once got yelled at for spending too much time with some customers, despite the fact that a) they actually needed the help and b) they were from a local priavate school and bought $1000+ worth of craft supplies in one shot in what would eventually become a repeat order. They would specifically ask to talk to me after that, because (one of them privately told me) I was the only employee that wasn't rude and the only one that seemed to even remotely care about being helpful.

  • xevious (unregistered) in reply to morry
    morry:
    $5 says the company had an "open door" policy.
    The original story sounds too much like what I experienced at my second job. If it's the same place, they advertised an "open door" policy and outwardly praised themselves at how great everything was since there was a very low incidence of using the open door policy.

    Chris: was this company perchance a major cellular phone manufacturer?

  • Matt (unregistered) in reply to Jonh Robo
    Jonh Robo:
    This reminds me of a project manager I once suffered under who refused to read any emails that I sent him.

    I would think that if he couldn't organize his inbox he couldn't actually organize the many projects we had to deal with.

    So, they promoted him to VP...

    No, the problem is not with his inbox. He is IGNORING your emails..

    It is a common tactic (among CDM's, aspiring VP's and the like) to not respond to emails from subordinates. Some even set up Outlook rules to color-code mails from peers and superiors differently so that they can ignore the rest.

  • AnonCoder (unregistered)

    How on earth do people manage to let a moron like that actually stay in charge?

    It's quite simple folks:

    1. Calmly and rationally explain the problems with the system in an email (so it's documented) to the idiot in question making sure to suggest alternatives.
    2. Document how the system totally fucks up exactly as you expected for a few days, preferably with data for many people.
    3. Explain again to the idiot in question exactly what's wrong with his dumbass system, in email.
    4. When he ignores you again setup a meeting with his direct boss using the open door policy, during which you explain you had no choice but to escalate this issue because noone can get any work done. Give him the evidence showing no productivity.
    5. Watch as moron gets fired.

    How the hell, in 50+ developers, can there not be one with enough of a clue to outwit the moron?

  • Fred (unregistered)

    Hiring people is hard. If the boss's boss can avoid having to hire a new CDM, and have the CDM instead be responsible for making a few new hires himself, he's rather do that.

  • LintMan (unregistered) in reply to TSK
    TSK:
    Hellz99:
    What are anyone's thoughts about using an anonymous email to upper management?

    Bad. Very bad. The first immediate reaction is almost always thinking "coward" because a) you have nothing to lose while you hope that someone will be punished. That is wicked thinking and I would have no qualms to fire you if I were a manager and can identify you even if your complaint is truthful.

    b) With your anonymity there is no way to separate foul-mouthing and legitimate complaints. As a manager: How should I divide what is right and wrong in the complaint ? And even if I could why should I investigate in the first place ?! Use my own precious time for hunting a possible ghost ? No way.

    The wisest tip was meeting with the higher executive face to face with support without interruption. I would even advise: Prepare to be fired. You need cold blood and firm resolution that the situation is intolerable as it is; risking a job if you still want to hold it puts terrible pressure on you.

    Jr VP: "Sir, we've gotten a report that one of the senior managers initiated reprisals on employees who tried to talk to upper management about some problems with his plans causing hundreds of hours of lost productivity". Sr VP: "Really? Let me talk to the complainer." Jr VP: "Uh, sorry sir. It was an anonymous email because the person feared a reprisal against him as well." Sr VP: "What!!!! Track down who sent it. An anonymous complaint is cowardly and insults our caring and understanding nature! Fire him immediately!" Jr VP: "What if the complaint is true, sir?" Sr VP: "Who cares? Cutting out that cancerous anonymous coward is what's important here."

    Give me a break. The whole situation has come to a head because of a clear and obvious case of retailiation. Even if the upper management doesn't realize that was the case, they shouldn't be stupid enough to think that if the complaint was in any way legitimate, the person would publically come forward. Why would someone do that when it was just proven to be career suicide? For most people, the only alternative to an anonymous note would be no information at all and working in misery, or no information and just quitting as soon as convenient. How is either of those cases better for your company?

    If I was a responsible executive for my company, I'd much much rather have an inactionable tip-off to a potential problem I could keep an eye on than no clue that the problem exists, while the talent pool quietly drains away and circulates bad word of mouth that keeps quality new employees away.

    In a strong job market, expecting employees to face the "terrible pressure" in order to fix what is in reality upper management's problem to deal with (The CDM works for them, so they are responsible for monitoring his performance), is ridiculous. The majority of people will just move on instead.

    And in a crappy job market, expecting employees to risk losing a very hard to find job, again, in order to fix what is in reality upper management's problem to deal with, is still ridiculous. The majority of people will keep quiet, stop giving a damn about their work or the company, and pray for a better job market.

    None of this is to say that the execs who receive the anonymous tip should believe it all and immediately fire the CDM. Of course anything anonymous like that needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt at a minimum, but that doesn't mean it must be completely ignored and can't be looked into at all.

  • CraigL (unregistered)

    Yes, the CDM was an unpleasant yoyo, but I place an equal amount of blame on the lack of testicular fortitude demonstrated by the original coder geek that realized that the CDM's system wouldn't work. Instead of saying nothing in response to the CDM's inquiry during the meeting, this person should have immediately pointed out the problem they saw. This could have been done in a politically neutral way, such as "I see a potentially problematic bottleneck that could occur when all of the developers attempt to update the Excel file at the same time. Should we run a few tests to see if this is going to be a problem? Or perhaps somebody else has more experience with this and knows a workaround." If the geek is told to sit down and shut up, they should simply continue to bring the issue up at each and every meeting, perhaps offering suggestions for alternative solutions. Sitting silently while the entire departments reputation get flushed down the tubes over the weeks of no builds is the placing all responsibility on the CDMs shoulders.

    I've sat where the CDM sat and the first thing you learn is that it is highly likely that you are managing people that are smarter than yourself, and their input can help save your ass, and the sooner you hear about potential problems, the sooner you can work through them - and the entire department benefits. Eventually, the inability to deliver catches up to a manager. Attempting to shift the blame to underlings is seen as incredibly bad form by upper managenment, and you are branded as gutless, or worse - incompetent for not being able to produce results in your department.

  • John Hardin (unregistered)

    Any idea if that firm has exit interviews (... not conducted by the firing manager!)?

    It's a wonder that a manager like that would still be there after very many honest exit interviews.

  • Dick for brains (unregistered)

    Stories like this make me want to become a pirate on the open seas. Then I realize that the OSHA regulations would make profit margins slim at best.

  • CDM#2 (unregistered)

    So the WTF is that the guy had a shitty boss, got fired for no good reason, then found a better job? Wow. I've never heard that one before.

  • Billco (unregistered)

    The best thing to do in this case is rally up all the people who were fired and file a class action against the company for wrongful termination. It's one thing to go one-on-one with an army of corporate attorneys, it's a whole different ball game when you've got a dozen allies (and witnesses) to back you up. Many such lawsuits get $ettled out of court.

  • Lenin (unregistered)

    Wait.

    There's 200 developers? Have the union call up a strike. Strike one day and upper management will listen, and you'll get it sorted out. They can't fire all their developers.

    Or you may not have the same protection for unions as we have in Europe. In that case, vote for the party that supports unions. (I'm guessing that's the democrats?)

    Or, the capitalist solution: buy stock in the company, and go to the annual meeting to explain the problem. Or have someone buy stock and go to the meeting.

  • Bob (unregistered) in reply to speaking of wtf's
    speaking of wtf's:
    speaking of wtf's:
    does this forum software suck or what???

    also I need some help, I'm trying to write some javascript to post the "forum software sucks" message automatically so I don't have to visit this place so often, but I don't know how to decode the captcha with javascript. any ideas?

    Can't be done with javascript alone. It needs some XML.

  • asterisk (unregistered) in reply to Volmarias

    That's a lame response and one that's I've heard before: "I enjoy receiving a paycheck to pay my mortgage with". So what? So you can be under the thumb of a company that is run by idiots?

    Life is too short. So when I was told that line, then fired shortly thereafter, I walked out with my dignity intact. I've been better off ever since.

    Don't let fear hold you back.

  • Tom (unregistered) in reply to bstorer
    bstorer:
    It's nice when you're job consists of simply double-clicking a file every few minutes. And you've got the evidence to back up what you were doing.

    ROFL! That is absolutely perfect.

  • (cs) in reply to s
    s:
    First answer the questions. Then use the interview to ask several questions like "Are you still using this retarded system with a single spreadshit?" "Is that fucktard development manager still employed at your place?" Then say "No, thanks, I'm looking for a job where the boss isn't a complete loser asshole. I'll try my chances elsewhere". And do.

    Anyone got a link to that story about the boss who lost it completely after some employee trash-talked the company to an interviewee in an elevator?

  • (cs) in reply to Lenin
    Lenin:
    Wait.

    There's 200 developers? Have the union call up a strike. Strike one day and upper management will listen, and you'll get it sorted out. They can't fire all their developers.

    Or you may not have the same protection for unions as we have in Europe. In that case, vote for the party that supports unions. (I'm guessing that's the democrats?)

    Or, the capitalist solution: buy stock in the company, and go to the annual meeting to explain the problem. Or have someone buy stock and go to the meeting.

    I've never belonged to a union, nor do I have any interest in doing so. Then again, I work in a small enough division that the likes of the CDM would never survive for long.

    (Off-topic: That photo in the "Get Paid for Driving IT Research" ad looks an awful lot like me. When are they gonna pay me, huh?)

  • (cs) in reply to AnonCoder
    AnonCoder:
    How on earth do people manage to let a moron like that actually stay in charge?

    It's quite simple folks:

    1. Calmly and rationally explain the problems with the system in an email (so it's documented) to the idiot in question making sure to suggest alternatives.
    2. Document how the system totally fucks up exactly as you expected for a few days, preferably with data for many people.
    3. Explain again to the idiot in question exactly what's wrong with his dumbass system, in email.
    4. When he ignores you again setup a meeting with his direct boss using the open door policy, during which you explain you had no choice but to escalate this issue because noone can get any work done. Give him the evidence showing no productivity.
    5. Watch as moron gets fired.

    How the hell, in 50+ developers, can there not be one with enough of a clue to outwit the moron?

    Don't forget:

    3a: Regularly make copies of all of this documentation and take them home. Or, if that's not allowed (as is starting to happen), keep them in the office in places where they won't be easy to "accidentally" destroy.

    (Or at least, that's what I've heard other, much more paranoid people say.)

  • Chris Austin (unregistered)

    Sounds like all the developers in that meeting were set for a large unfair dismissal payment too, if they were to persuit it.

  • (cs) in reply to emurphy
    emurphy:
    Anyone got a link to that story about the boss who lost it completely after some employee trash-talked the company to an interviewee in an elevator?
    Here it is: http://worsethanfailure.com/Comments/The_Motivator.aspx

    I'm just glad to have a good manager... :-)

  • Mark (unregistered) in reply to vt_mruhlin

    Simple add bugs so you have a quota to fix. its one of the unintended consequencesof measuring the wrong thing. Even Dilbert has a cartoon on this.

  • dolo54 (unregistered) in reply to TimmyT

    Do you have any openings? ... just kidding!!!

  • Franz Kafka (unregistered) in reply to suetanvil
    suetanvil:
    Don't forget:

    3a: Regularly make copies of all of this documentation and take them home. Or, if that's not allowed (as is starting to happen), keep them in the office in places where they won't be easy to "accidentally" destroy.

    (Or at least, that's what I've heard other, much more paranoid people say.)

    3b: if taking copies home is forbidden, do it anyway.

  • TSK (unregistered)

    I was away during Eastern so I am replying late. After getting heavy flak from Anonymous and LintMan, I would like to clear up some misunderstandings. I am not a manager, but a freelancer and I have recognized many patterns in workplace (and friends and people telling me other stories).

    And I still stand for my decision because some reasons and tipps brought forward are written from a geeky viewpoint and I think that many of them are dangerous and counterproduktive.

    We have a problem. But it is NOT a TECHNICAL PROBLEM, but a problem with HUMAN RELATIONSHIPS. Putting bluntly: Your chief is an asshole and you must cope with it. Trying to solve human interrelation from a technical viewpoint (gather counterevidence, inform superiors no-matter-how, who is right and who is wrong, finding the truth) is asking for disaster.

    Anonymous has attacked me that I dare to fire someone even when he is telling the truth(TM). You are acknowledging that it may be hard to find out the truth, but you say effectively: "If he is guilty: excellent. If he is innocent: no harm is done. Go ahead and hunt after every indicated smoke for fire even if it is a big fuming pile of dung."

    Your length of the letter and your visible anger also sounds to me that you are wronged, that you want justice and you seem to believe that anonymous aspersing is an acceptable form of compensation.

    Simple question: You are a pupil in your class and you see that your classmate is cheating with a cheat sheet. Are you talking to your teacher to indicate the cheat ? According to your reason it is a valid accusation and therefore it is ok. If you really think that I can understand that you prefer to write anonymously because the repercussions of your classmates will be severe and immediate.

    Let me tell something about a viewpoint of a manager. They have their own social class; they are eating, discussing etc. most of their time with themselves (Distilling convenient "truths" like that there are losers and winners, that their salary is acceptable, that everyone gets work if he wants to work etc.). Therefore the warning about the higher influence of the manager in question on his colleagues indicated by some replies. If the culprit is on the first level, imagine how many people are subordinates on the second ? If a manager has 20-50 people as staff in the first level, the second level includes 60-200 staff people. (In smaller firms it may be better, but the story indicated a level of hierarchy only applicable to bigger firms). The second-level manager has therefore normally NO idea of the delicate interrelationships of the people in a certain work area. He DOESN'T know whom to ask or when to ask. Do you like the feeling to be supervised for no apparent reason ? No ? If I imagine that such a manager follows really your advise to investigate, I see a mighty Inspector Clouseau dropping clanger after clanger and coming to ridiculous results. Your idea that a wrong accusation does no harm is awfully wrong.

    The boss of your boss normally don't care about your feelings, his only concern is that his sub-managers are doing well. If the submanagers use carrot or stick is normally unimportant for him as long as they are doing well. Keep that in mind.

    Anonymous, Lintman, if you don't believe me, talk with some hard-nosed work veteran who has social competence.

    One of the best tips is still the answer of Anita. If all the staff can be put together, it is also a good idea to march in unison to the culprit and take him to task (In that case.

    The reply is long, but I think the amount of bullshit advice uttered by some people needs some clarification.

  • (cs) in reply to CraigL
    CraigL:
    ...Instead of saying nothing in response to the CDM's inquiry during the meeting, this person should have immediately pointed out the problem they saw. This could have been done in a politically neutral way, such as "I see a potentially problematic bottleneck that could occur when all of the developers attempt to update the Excel file at the same time. Should we run a few tests to see if this is going to be a problem? Or perhaps somebody else has more experience with this and knows a workaround." If the geek is told to sit down and shut up, they should simply continue to bring the issue up at each and every meeting, perhaps offering suggestions for alternative solutions.
    Except this guy is a cunt and would probably exclude such an annoying repetitive geek from further meetings, or just fire him for being awkward (and criticising CDM however indirectly).
    Sitting silently while the entire departments reputation get flushed down the tubes over the weeks of no builds is the placing all responsibility on the CDMs shoulders.
    Which is nothing more than he deserves. I have zero sympathy for people such as this who eventually get shitstormed upon. It's just a shame that so many underlings have to suffer for so long before it happens.
    I've sat where the CDM sat and the first thing you learn is that it is highly likely that you are managing people that are smarter than yourself, and their input can help save your ass, and the sooner you hear about potential problems, the sooner you can work through them - and the entire department benefits.
    Yes, that sounds reasonable, logical and intelligent (and makes you a nice guy as well). The only problem being: read my first six words again. Says it all really.
  • JJR (unregistered) in reply to TSK
    TSK:
    Yes, I would fire him for this reasons:
    1. If he is trying to "avoid retaliation" why is he writing to me in the first place ? If he writes anomynously, what is he thinking of me ? Perhaps: "Gee, my current executive is an asshole. . ."

    [. . .]

    and so on and on and on

    Guess what. Hypothetically speaking, if you were the boss and there was a CDM as bad as in this story and if he was allowed to reign for years and years and years, chances are there were complaints already and if not, there should have been many subtle hints. And if you still did nothing to stop it or at least pay some attention to it, then yes, you ARE an @$$h0le.

  • TSK (unregistered) in reply to JJR

    Guess what. Hypothetically speaking, if you were the boss and there was a CDM as bad as in this story and if he was allowed to reign for years and years and years, chances are there were complaints already ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and if not, there should have been many subtle hints.

    But my answer was given to a specified action: complain anonymously.

    If there ARE already complaints or subtle hints, the necessity of complaining anonymously is not given. If these complaints are deliberately ignored, an anonymous complaint will be surely ignored. So I based my conclusions on the unspoken assumption that noone has complained before. In this case your conclusion of a boss as asshole is valid, but it does not influence my arguments and conclusions. And concerning the word "should" in "should have been subtle hints": Every day the newspaper is full of stories about people who "should have done sth" but didn't. Unfortunately.

    If someone has really, REALLY the feeling that an open complain is impossible, then the system is really rotten. In that case blow the whistle anonymously (and hide yourself good !) outside the company like EAspouse (and hope that someone will hear it), but still never inside.

  • redsolo (unregistered) in reply to anonymous
    anonymous:
    I guess I'm in the minority here, but I think it IS rude to be having a private conversation in the middle of a meeting. Drives me nuts when I'm in a meeting trying to hear the person who is speaking and there are 2-3 sub-conversations drowning it out. Also, as much of an a**hole as the CDM appears to have been, going over his head behind his back was just plain stupid (except maybe in a very small company...)

    I hope you are kidding about going over someones head. If someone is ignroant of problems that they cause, where else can you take it? Why would you put up with stupidness when it is causing problems for you. Perhaps your suggested would be to put your head in the sand.

  • Jag (unregistered)

    A real JERK! I recommend to all of your dedicated readers that they pick up the 1987 paperback entitled "How to Work for a Jerk" by Robert M. Hochheiser. ISBN-13: 978-0394747774

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