• Henry (unregistered) in reply to D.T.N.
    D.T.N.:
    HazMat:
    Chemicals that can explode have their own label, called "EXPLOSIVE." "Combustible" is just less flammable than a "Flammable" designation. No explodey. And "Combustible" is only a proper shipping name in the United States, the international regulations have no designation for American "Combustible."

    The more you know!

    What? Americans aren't known for going against the grain? Next you're going to tell me that the United States is the only country that doesn't use metric.

    Well, actually there are two other countries that don't use metric, Liberia and Burma. And the US does use metric, they just don't give it top billing.

  • (cs) in reply to ThingGuy McGuyThing
    ThingGuy McGuyThing:
    KattMan:

    Which to them makes it even more appropriate because there is no single word meaning 1024 in any language. With that in mind, why not create a new term to represent this.

    But you missed the point. "Megabyte" is now an english word, like "teapot" - despite it's quasi-latin roots. And every single person smart enough to be aware of the term "kibi" is also smart enough to recognize the meaning of the "mega" prefix from the context.

    Can you point out a single situation where the meaning is not clear from the context? If not, why not accept the slightly-different meaning of "mega" in certain contexts as the normal evolution of language? You're going to lose this war anyway.

    I'm not going to lose this war, because I really don't care. Keep in mind I did not say it makes sense to me I said "Which to them makes it even more appropriate...", note the "them" in that sentence. I am not a part of them, if I was I would have said "Which to us..."

  • Jim Bob's Mom (unregistered) in reply to Jim Bob
    Jim Bob:
    I have big fat balls

    It's true you guys, I've seen them.

  • Anonymous Cowherd (unregistered) in reply to suutar
    suutar:
    Does the fact that prefixes defined as powers of 10 are widely used to represent powers of 2 make it somehow accurate? Or do you just not care? It's only 7% difference, after all...
    You know, there's all this talk about firewalls in computers, but when I open up the case, there's nothing. When I bought this computer, they said it came with a firewall, and all it really has is some flimsy heatsinks. What happens if there's actually a FIRE in there!?

    The lesson here is that some terms have industry-specific meanings.

  • epee1221 (unregistered) in reply to Sgt. Preston
    Sgt. Preston:
    I'll grant that calling the American game "football" is a long-standing WTF. As for the rougher game, I assure you that if these nearly-naked rubgy players hit each other as hard as 'football' players do, there would be no player left conscious after the first thirty seconds.
    Yeah, a scrum is no place for the faint-of-heart, but it's pretty controlled compared to what goes on between linemen. Rugby actually seems to have a lot of rules wrt safety (no hands into the ruck, no collapsing the scrum, etc.).
  • nini (unregistered) in reply to gwenhwyfaer
    gwenhwyfaer:
    Am I the only person who reads "kibibyte" and thinks of dry pet food?

    I assure you that you're not the only one. The first time I read "kibibyte" I started humming the Kibbles 'n Bits song...

  • Tim (unregistered) in reply to Anonymous Cowherd
    Anonymous Cowherd:
    for e You know, there's all this talk about firewalls in computers, but when I open up the case, there's nothing. When I bought this computer, they said it came with a firewall, and all it really has is some flimsy heatsinks. What happens if there's actually a FIRE in there!?

    The lesson here is that some terms have industry-specific meanings.

    Exactly, and the lesson is also that these industry-specific terms were modified not for any technical reasons, but so that manufacturers of hard drives can screw us out of about 72MB out of every gigabyte promised. The fact that 1 megabyte of RAM is stil 1,048,576 bytes, just as 64k of RAM was 65,536 bytes 25 years ago means that this is nothing short of false advertising.

  • snoofle (unregistered) in reply to Mr Moo
    Mr Moo:
    Or What? You'll release the cobras or the bees or the cobras with bees in their mouths so when they hiss they shoot bees at you?
    Can someone please tell me where I can buy (build?) bee-spitting cobras? There's someone in my office for whom that would make an ideal present!
  • (cs) in reply to Jim Bob
    Jim Bob:
    I have big fat balls
    Too much exposure to the biohazards?
  • Rugger fan (unregistered) in reply to epee1221
    epee1221:
    Rugby actually seems to have a lot of rules wrt safety (no hands into the ruck, no collapsing the scrum, etc.).

    Thank you. To all the others comparing rugby and american football, you should actually LEARN something about rugby and the rules. A lot of the hits allowed in American Football are not allowed in rugby. Primarily because both the hitter and the hittee (is that a word?) would open to serious injury. High tackles, wrapping up, no push-offs - have to do legit stiff-arms, and many many more.

    And the comment about everyone being all bunched up w/ just a couple backs is complete crap. Go watch a few quality games and pay attention.

  • Jon (unregistered)

    Oh, look, another Internet argument about kibibytes. Let's summarise the arguments, shall we?

    1. There is no compelling reason to use 'kibibyte' over 'kilobyte'.
    2. There is no compelling reason to use 'kilobyte' over 'kibibyte'.
    3. Kibibytes sound silly.
    4. Kilobytes sound silly.
    5. I hate you.
  • Sharkie (unregistered) in reply to Someone You Know
    Someone You Know:
    RevLee:
    "biohazardous materials get the logo of defunct New York old-school hardcore band Biohazard"

    The biohazard symbol existed long before the band. I first saw it on a medical school door during the late 60's.

    Jesus H. Christ on crutches. Did you honestly read this article and think that sentence was serious?

    Well, if that poster disappears for several years, we'll know someone pointed them towards the definition of what GNU stands for...

  • (cs) in reply to ThingGuy McGuyThing
    ThingGuy McGuyThing:
    KattMan:

    Which to them makes it even more appropriate because there is no single word meaning 1024 in any language. With that in mind, why not create a new term to represent this.

    But you missed the point. "Megabyte" is now an english word, like "teapot" - despite it's quasi-latin roots. And every single person smart enough to be aware of the term "kibi" is also smart enough to recognize the meaning of the "mega" prefix from the context.

    Can you point out a single situation where the meaning is not clear from the context? If not, why not accept the slightly-different meaning of "mega" in certain contexts as the normal evolution of language? You're going to lose this war anyway.

    At how many GB/sec can my router (with a 1 GHz CPU) send encrypted data if it can encrypts 32 bytes per cycle? If I stop sending it to-be-encrypted data, how long will it take to empty its currently-full 512 MB socket buffer?

  • (cs) in reply to Thief^
    Thief^:
    Pisquali:
    They actually call it "American Combustible" much like they call football "American Football"
    We call it "American Football" because we already had a game called "football" before that ever existed.

    American Football is quite similar to our rugby, but with a lot more protective clothing. Either you play a rougher game than rugby, or you're paranoid about being hurt.

    Actually, your rugby used to be called football as well, and it was a variation of that game that became popular on this side of the Atlantic. And to say one came first is pretty silly, considering both rule variations slowly evolved (and are still evolving) from the same base game involving teams trying to move inflated pig bladders from one side of the field to another.

  • (cs)

    Okay, as for all those whiners here: I have to defend the "new" binary prefixes (they're around for about 10 years now).

    It's quite funny how inconsistent things get when you try to redefine well known meanings (like Kilo = 1000), even in IT things got inconsistent. While you calculate Kilobyte with base 2 you still calulate Kilobits with base 10. What a great solution.

    No, giving binary units decimal prefixes was a fault in the first place and it's a very good idea to rid of it.

    I know that it's hard to understand the benefits, when you're used to inches, feet, yards, gallons, dozen, ounzes and other medieval units, but believe those who know better than you :-)

  • (cs) in reply to suutar
    suutar:
    Does the fact that prefixes defined as powers of 10 are widely used to represent powers of 2 make it somehow accurate? Or do you just not care? It's only 7% difference, after all...

    That's it - we don't care. Nobody cares. Nobody except the people who make and sell hard drives, who have managed to convince everyone that the traditional meaning of "kilo" in the computer industry, to mean "the closest to 10^3 that can be represented as a power of 2, because using an exact decimal prefix when everything addresses in binary* is silly" is somehow incorrect. Even though their own sodding hard disks are sized in lumps defined as 2^n anyway. And all so that they can inflate their claimed sizes by that paltry 7% you mention... Of course, whereas 7% is a barely noticeable 1536 bytes at 64K, it's a hefty 5.9 billion bytes at 80G. (Yep, we're being swindled out of more than an entire 32-bit address space.)

    At least it's revealed to us the commission Hell's gatekeepers levy on souls. Or at any rate the souls of the people who make hard drives; one presumes that those of artists rate rather higher, and those of advertising executives are lucky to scrape 2.5%.

    • Yes, I know about the Atlas, thanks.
  • Dan (unregistered) in reply to epee1221
    epee1221:
    Sgt. Preston:
    I'll grant that calling the American game "football" is a long-standing WTF. As for the rougher game, I assure you that if these nearly-naked rubgy players hit each other as hard as 'football' players do, there would be no player left conscious after the first thirty seconds.
    Yeah, a scrum is no place for the faint-of-heart, but it's pretty controlled compared to what goes on between linemen. Rugby actually seems to have a lot of rules wrt safety (no hands into the ruck, no collapsing the scrum, etc.).

    no hands in the ruck has nothing to do with safety. The rule is unless you are standing on your feet, you cant "play" the ball with your hands, your must use your feet. Which in turn brings out more safety concerns ? Ever had smoe metal studs in the middle of your back, or the face ?

    Not fun.

    I agree its not quite so crazy as American Football, but trust me, sometimes those big hits do happen, you just have to atleast make an effort to be using your hands to make a legitimate tackle :)

  • black_rock (unregistered) in reply to Jorge
    Jorge:
    suutar:
    Does the fact that prefixes defined as powers of 10 are widely used to represent powers of 2 make it somehow accurate? Or do you just not care? It's only 7% difference, after all...

    7% I was expecting something more in the order of 2.4% I should assume that the extra space is needed to store the difference between calculations

    Captcha gotcha like in a James Bond%

    It cascades. On the gigabyte level it's starting to get closer to 10%. 1024 vs. 1000 => 2.40% 1048576 vs. 1000000 => 4.86% 1073741824 vs. 1000000000 => 7.37% 1099511627776 vs. 1000000000000 => 9.95%

  • (cs) in reply to gary k
    gary k:
    Really?? A reference to Biohazard? Goddamn i love this site
    Dito. Wouldn't call it an old school hardcore band, but that leads to a ki(lo|bi)byte like discussion.
  • anon (unregistered) in reply to ThingGuy McGuyThing
    ThingGuy McGuyThing:
    Can you point out a single situation where the meaning is not clear from the context? If not, why not accept the slightly-different meaning of "mega" in certain contexts as the normal evolution of language? You're going to lose this war anyway.
    How many addressable bytes are there on a 1.44MB formatted floppy disk?
  • (cs) in reply to Lurker McGee
    Lurker McGee:
    At least when english-speakers try to use their language in other countries it usually just results in embarrassed and confused scares. Not huge massive explosions.
    I think a brightly coloured barrel with a brightly coloured label with a drawing of an explosion in it is pretty much universal..
  • A.N.Other (unregistered) in reply to newbie, but American
    newbie:
    Well considering the size of some of the players, and the injuries they are infamous for sustaining, I'd say its a rougher game.

    Although, as little knowledge I have of "American Football", I have even less knowledge of rugby.

    Rugby is famous for paralising people in a think called a scrum where everyone bends over and locks together pushing the opposition. What happens is it collapses and people break there necks - literally!!

  • (cs) in reply to SQB
    SQB:
    gary k:
    Really?? A reference to Biohazard? Goddamn i love this site
    Dito. Wouldn't call it an old school hardcore band, but that leads to a ki(lo|bi)byte like discussion.
    Foxtrot, Uniform, Charlie, Kibi.
  • Patrick (unregistered) in reply to RON

    Let's make "kibibyte" a WTF of itself. What bozo thought that up?

    I'll stick with kilobyte, IEC and wikipedia nerds be damned.

  • (cs) in reply to hprotagonist
    hprotagonist:
    Hurley! There's a sport for real men.

    Ah, Hurling! Hurling is crazy. A link (to a certain encyclopedia website that no one will ever take seriously):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurling

  • username (unregistered) in reply to RON
    RON:
    Someone You Know:
    fanguad:
    If you don't mind sounding like a retard, you can always just call them kibibytes.

    Question of the day: Why haven't we risen up and burned the kibibyte crowd yet?

    I tried on wikipedia, but it turns out that the site is full of pedantic nerds who have even written programs to automatically turn all kilobytes references back to kibibytes if we change them back.

    I got into an argument with them, and posted 10 very good reasons why kibibytes should be ignored, but then they got all snooty and claimed I was "unintelligent".

    /yeah, I'm unintelligent because I spend all day at work, making lots of money, while you're sitting around all day making free contributions to an encyclopedia website that no one will ever take seriously. // right.

    ...Mithrandir?

    But seriously, "kibi" looks/sounds pretty stupid. But then again so does "bytes".

    shrug

  • Thomas (unregistered) in reply to Yazeran
    Yazeran:
    D.T.N.:
    What? Americans aren't known for going against the grain? Next you're going to tell me that the United States is the only country that doesn't use metric.
    Well i do think one or two other use non metric as well (Like the 'excelently democratic' Burma (Myanmar) ....)

    Yours Yazeran

    Plan: To go to Mars one day with a hammer.

    Is that a metric hammer?

  • TakesSkillIGuess (unregistered) in reply to akatherder
    akatherder:
    In American football, the players are much more spread out and you're more likely to see two players collide at a full sprint. Or one player jumping in the air to catch a ball while another guy creams him in mid-air.
    The real WTF is a sport that involves guys creaming one another in mid-air.

    Quoting this post, the advertisement panel chose an ad for a gay fitness community. That is the image I will always associate with American Football from now on...

  • Dread Mullet Roberts (unregistered) in reply to Jon
    1) There is no compelling reason to use 'kibibyte' over 'kilobyte'. 2) There is no compelling reason to use 'kilobyte' over 'kibibyte'. 3) Kibibytes sound silly. 4) Kilobytes sound silly. 5) I hate you.
    6) PROFIT!!!!

    Captcha: yummy

  • fgb (unregistered) in reply to Aaron

    Good Point. But the kilo/mega/giga prefixes are Greek, not Latin.

  • Jon (unregistered) in reply to username
    username:
    RON:
    I tried on wikipedia, but it turns out that the site is full of pedantic nerds who have even written programs to automatically turn all kilobytes references back to kibibytes if we change them back.

    I got into an argument with them, and posted 10 very good reasons why kibibytes should be ignored, but then they got all snooty and claimed I was "unintelligent".

    /yeah, I'm unintelligent because I spend all day at work, making lots of money, while you're sitting around all day making free contributions to an encyclopedia website that no one will ever take seriously. // right.

    ...Mithrandir?
    Phew, good catch. For a moment there I almost thought there were two people who thought like that.

  • (cs) in reply to Andrew
    Andrew:
    RevLee:
    "biohazardous materials get the logo of defunct New York old-school hardcore band Biohazard"

    The biohazard symbol existed long before the band. I first saw it on a medical school door during the late 60's.

    That was satire. Of course the biohazard symbol existed first.

    My mother's microbiology lab had trash bags with biohazard symbols. I used them to store dirty laundry back in college. They were great cheap luggage. I doubt I could get on a plane with biohazard-labeled bags today.

    In college I worked for a mental institution which had those huge red biohazard bags. Once on a road trip I used one to put my sleeping bag in to keep in the back of the truck. You should have seen the look on the Virginia cop's face when he pulled us over for speeding.

    "Son, you really don't have any hazardous materials in that bag do ya?"

  • FP (unregistered) in reply to anon
    anon:
    ThingGuy McGuyThing:
    Can you point out a single situation where the meaning is not clear from the context? If not, why not accept the slightly-different meaning of "mega" in certain contexts as the normal evolution of language? You're going to lose this war anyway.
    How many addressable bytes are there on a 1.44MB formatted floppy disk?
    That would be 1.44 kilokibibyte!

    <gd&r>

  • Jim Bob (unregistered) in reply to Jim Bob's Mom
    Jim Bob's Mom:
    Jim Bob:
    I have big fat balls

    It's true you guys, I've seen them.

    get back in the kitchen and make me another pot pie

  • Anonymous Pedant (unregistered) in reply to a/c
    a/c:
    It should be mentioned that American football, association football, and rugby were all once the same sport. Football was just a loose term for several different games played *on foot* and the rules varied considerably wherever you went. Some British clubs got tired of having to negotiate the terms with the opposing team before each game, so they settled on one set of rules. The Americans simply settled on a different set of rules.

    Indeed. In fact, "football" was originally meant to distinguish the games the peasants played on foot from the ones the aristocrats played on horseback (e.g. polo). Descendants include Association Football ("assoc", A.K.A. "soccer"), two flavors of Rugby Football (union and league), American Football, Canadian Football, Australian Rules Football ("footy"), and Gaelic Football.

  • watson (unregistered) in reply to RevLee
    RevLee:
    "biohazardous materials get the logo of defunct New York old-school hardcore band Biohazard"

    The biohazard symbol existed long before the band. I first saw it on a medical school door during the late 60's.

    No shit, sherlock ...

    captcha: atari ... hey! during the late 70's i saw a videogame with the very same captcha ... spooky

  • (cs) in reply to BiggBru
    BiggBru:
    Jake Vinson:
    And like the rings of a beautiful, majestic redwood, chunks of code bearing each fallen developer's coding style left unique impressions in the code.

    Needless to say, Trevor should make like a tree and LEAVE!

    He should make like a tree and get out of there, butthead. (Biff has ruined my ability to insult.)
    Tim:
    Anonymous Cowherd:
    for e You know, there's all this talk about firewalls in computers, but when I open up the case, there's nothing. When I bought this computer, they said it came with a firewall, and all it really has is some flimsy heatsinks. What happens if there's actually a FIRE in there!?

    The lesson here is that some terms have industry-specific meanings.

    Exactly, and the lesson is also that these industry-specific terms were modified not for any technical reasons, but so that manufacturers of hard drives can screw us out of about 72MB out of every gigabyte promised. The fact that 1 megabyte of RAM is stil 1,048,576 bytes, just as 64k of RAM was 65,536 bytes 25 years ago means that this is nothing short of false advertising.

    A few years ago they were still making things like 4.3G drives that everyone knew were actually 4G after formatting. Too bad they dropped that practice, I liked having a nearly round number, instead of 462G.

  • (cs) in reply to Mr Moo
    Mr Moo:
    Or What? You'll release the cobras or the bees or the cobras with bees in their mouths so when they hiss they shoot bees at you?

    Thank you, I was hoping someone else was thinking of that same reference.

  • (cs) in reply to anon
    anon:
    ThingGuy McGuyThing:
    Can you point out a single situation where the meaning is not clear from the context? If not, why not accept the slightly-different meaning of "mega" in certain contexts as the normal evolution of language? You're going to lose this war anyway.
    How many addressable bytes are there on a 1.44MB formatted floppy disk?
    1,474,560. Its interpretation of "mega" is 10^3*2^10 - just as it was in 1.2Mbyte floppies (2 sides, 80 tracks, 15 or 18 sectors per track, 512 bytes per sector).

    Who came up with that? Oh - IBM did... the company who invented their own version of NIH.

  • (cs)

    The sticker that always got me was "spontaneously combustible". The first time I had drums I had to move with that label, I was a little hesitant! =)

    That sign often means the contents can combust if air gets to it. Stuff like finely ground metals.

    There's even stuff like plain old COAL that can heat up and combust if it gets wet.

  • G Money (unregistered) in reply to nini
    nini:
    gwenhwyfaer:
    Am I the only person who reads "kibibyte" and thinks of dry pet food?

    I assure you that you're not the only one. The first time I read "kibibyte" I started humming the Kibbles 'n Bits song...

    Which made me start to hum:

    Meow Meow Meow Meow Meow Meow Meow Meow Meow Meow Meow Meow Meow Meow Meow Meow

  • (cs) in reply to Aaron
    Aaron:
    suutar:
    Does the fact that prefixes defined as powers of 10 are widely used to represent powers of 2 make it somehow accurate? Or do you just not care? It's only 7% difference, after all...
    That's nice, except that these are English words, not Latin. "Megabyte" doesn't necessarily mean "exactly one million bytes" any more so than "Megaman" means "exactly one million men".

    Computer scientists may have borrowed heavily from Latin (it was the most logical way to express approximately one thousand/million bytes at the time), but if you pedants are serious about being true to the Latin, then perhaps you ought to realize that "kibi" and "mebi" are not words or prefixes in either Latin OR English (or any other language, as far as I know).

    Computer scientists didn't "borrow heavily from latin", they misappropriated a dozen prefixes from the metric system (an international standard then and now in current use) which meant EXACTLY one thousand, one million, etc. wtf do you get this 'latin' thing from anyway? latin for one thousand is "mille" and there isn't any latin for any numbers above maybe ten thousand.

  • (cs) in reply to Patrick
    Patrick:
    Let's make "kibibyte" a WTF of itself. What bozo thought that up?

    I'll stick with kilobyte, IEC and wikipedia nerds be damned.

    Here, here!

  • RDD (unregistered) in reply to Henry
    Henry:
    D.T.N.:
    HazMat:
    Chemicals that can explode have their own label, called "EXPLOSIVE." "Combustible" is just less flammable than a "Flammable" designation. No explodey. And "Combustible" is only a proper shipping name in the United States, the international regulations have no designation for American "Combustible."

    The more you know!

    What? Americans aren't known for going against the grain? Next you're going to tell me that the United States is the only country that doesn't use metric.

    Well, actually there are two other countries that don't use metric, Liberia and Burma. And the US does use metric, they just don't give it top billing.

    The UK still uses miles per hour for their speed limits, so they're not purely metric either.

  • (cs) in reply to black_rock
    black_rock:
    It cascades. On the gigabyte level it's starting to get closer to 10%. 1024 vs. 1000 => 2.40% 1048576 vs. 1000000 => 4.86% 1073741824 vs. 1000000000 => 7.37% 1099511627776 vs. 1000000000000 => 9.95%

    You misspelled "terabyte".

  • James Schend (unregistered) in reply to Thief^
    Thief^:
    Pisquali:
    They actually call it "American Combustible" much like they call football "American Football"
    We call it "American Football" because we already had a game called "football" before that ever existed.

    American Football is quite similar to our rugby, but with a lot more protective clothing. Either you play a rougher game than rugby, or you're paranoid about being hurt.

    Urban legend alert.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,420024,00.html

    The original name of the game, yes even in England and the rest of Europe, was Soccer. They began calling it "Football" later-- after American Football had already been founded. Plus, if it matters, approximately 350 million English speakers call it "Soccer" (US, Australia, Canada) while only about 65 million call it "Football" (UK, Ireland.) The most correct English term would probably be "Soccer Football" since Soccer is a type of Football, and Rugby (or Ruggers) is another.

  • (cs) in reply to Aaron
    Aaron:
    ...but if you pedants are serious about being true to the Latin, then perhaps you ought to realize that "kibi" and "mebi" are not words or prefixes in either Latin OR English (or any other language, as far as I know).
    Ah, but they could be. Look up the term "neologism" -- from the Latin "neo logos".
  • (cs) in reply to RDD
    RDD:
    The UK still uses miles per hour for their speed limits, so they're not purely metric either.
    Only until the EU mandate metres per second.

    Conversion: appx. 9mph = 4m/s - nice and easy!

  • (cs) in reply to James Schend
    James Schend:
    Urban legend alert.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,420024,00.html

    The original name of the game, yes even in England and the rest of Europe, was Soccer.

    And do you know what "soccer" is short for? Yes, that's right - "association football". From the Football Association, the governing body in the UK, and dating from 1863 (although the first set of formally codified rules apparently dates from 1815).

    If we're talking about urban legends, then it's only fair to mention one Master William Webb Ellis, ex of Rubgy (a prestigious public school in the UK), who apocryphally picked up the ball one fine day in 1823 and ran with it. Successive people ran with it until in 1854, the Dublin University Football Club (yep, a rugby union club) became the first recognised football club. So yes, indeed the first "football" club was actually a rugby club, and the term "football" applied equally well to soccer and rugby until the formation of the Association. The Rubgy Union came into existence 8 years after that, in 1871, and the League another couple of decades later.

    They began calling it "Football" later-- after American Football had already been founded.
    But that's not the case. Soccer has always been called "football" in England, for centuries before there were formal rules, or an association to abbreviate! Also, Wikipedia states quite categorically that "American football is directly descended from rugby football", which makes it an offshoot of an offshoot.
    The most correct English term would probably be "Soccer Football" since Soccer is a type of Football, and Rugby (or Ruggers) is another.
    Indeed. People queue for hours at ATM machines, struggling to remember their PIN numbers, in order to buy tickets to watch their team play soccer football.

    ...See what I did there?

    Addendum (2007-06-29 21:48): Actually, following the lineage of the different games through is pretty fascinating, even for an avowed sports hater such as myself. I've learned more about the history of all the games called football in the last half hour than I've ever known - thank you!

  • J. (unregistered) in reply to MX5Ringer

    VB6 and VB.NET has very little to do with each other... the second one is a full .NET language, like C#, Boo, ...

    But then it's never the languages fault bad code happens, but it can sure be a contributing factor.

    / C# Addict and former C++ hacker =)

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