• chreng (disco)

    Cool guy, that Andy! Designed sort of an in-memory database solution!

  • algorythmics (disco)
    Comment held for moderation.
  • dkf (disco) in reply to chreng
    chreng:
    Designed sort of

    Sort of “designed”, yes?

  • Hasteur (disco)

    And nobody thought to, you know, call Al out to the grader for the lack of competence in his design and utter lack of contribution to the project? Letting him get through the course (and pick up his diploma) only made everyone elses diplomas that much worse.

  • DocMonster (disco) in reply to Hasteur
    Hasteur:
    And nobody thought to, you know, call Al out to the grader for the lack of competence in his design and utter lack of contribution to the project? Letting him get through the course (and pick up his diploma) only made everyone elses diplomas that much worse.

    Welcome to how it works. If they had they'd probably get marks taken off for not being team players or trying to get Al a bad grade or similar.

  • Ausoleil (disco)

    So, at the end of the story, their buddy Al was complaining that someone ripped up his breadboarded electronics project at work. This guy really sounds like a seasoned DBA to me...every single one of those guys I have ever worked with that was worfadam spent a lot of time prototyping electronics! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Sounds to me that Al's BS caught up with him, both at work and at school. The dude seems destined to be a senior manager.

  • HardwareGeek (disco) in reply to Ausoleil
    Ausoleil:
    someone ripped up his breadboarded electronics project at work.

    That was a different class at school. The story never tells us anything about his competence, or lack thereof, at work. Which is a pity; I'm sure there is no shortage of entertaining :wtf:s there, too, if his "industry experience" was not just made-up BS in the first place.

  • dkf (disco) in reply to HardwareGeek
    HardwareGeek:
    That was a different class at school. The story never tells us anything about his competence, or lack thereof, at work. Which is a pity; I'm sure there is no shortage of entertaining :wtf:s there, too, if his "industry experience" was not just made-up BS in the first place.

    To be fair, it sounds like his code functions mostly correctly (though very inefficiently) and that already puts him quite a bit above the worst students I've taught.

  • HardwareGeek (disco) in reply to dkf
    dkf:
    it sounds like his code functions correctly (though very inefficiently)

    I draw your attention to this paragraph in the article:

    If it were just poor performance, Andy would have thrown indexes at the problem and hoped that cleared things up. There were worse problems, though. For example, according to the database, today’s date was “Martha Sawyer”. User “Jim Mahony” had $–155132 in late fees, there were 15,005.542 books in the database, and 16,000 of them were available to be checked out to users.

    Although some of that may be Remy's creative contribution to the story.

  • Hanzo (disco) in reply to dkf
    dkf:
    To be fair, it sounds like his code functions correctly (though very inefficiently)...
    You must have missed the part where it says that today's date is Martha Stewart. If this is a "capstone" project for a software engineering school, I think I've found TSoAWTFs (The Source of ...).
  • Anonymous (disco)

    “Oh, sure,” Al said. “I know there were a few bugs in there. It’s not like you’re my parter in the Digital Electronics class- the day before our logic circuit project was due, he ripped out all of the wiring I’d done on the bread-board and did it from scratch. That guy was a real jerk.”

    “Well… actually… ”

    "... at least I kept the input and output wires. Look, the interface is still the same!"

  • HardwareGeek (disco) in reply to Hanzo
    Hanzo:
    You must have missed the part where it says that today's date is Martha Stewart.

    I did too. I could have sworn it said today's date was "Martha Sawyer." ;P

  • dkf (disco) in reply to HardwareGeek

    So I missed the (random?) reordering of columns. I'd already decided it was all crazy for not putting the sorting where it belongs anyway. :)

  • tharpa (disco)

    One wonders if Andy even bothered to tell Al about the new invention called "where clauses".

  • Hanzo (disco) in reply to HardwareGeek
    HardwareGeek:
    I did too. I could have sworn it said today's date was "Martha **Sawyer**." ;P
    That's another time zone.
  • Masaaki_Hosoi (disco) in reply to tharpa
    tharpa:
    One wonders if Andy even bothered to tell Al about the new invention called "where clauses".

    Pff. Everyone knows WHERE clauses are for chumps! Real men implement their own <!-- shitty --> query language.

  • tharpa (disco) in reply to Masaaki_Hosoi

    I'm thinking that Al didn't even know. He probably just learned to do a query by trial and error.

  • EatenByAGrue (disco) in reply to dkf

    Sort of “designed”, yes?

    Not so much "designed" as "congealed", to quote the late AdamsDouglasAdams.

  • CoyneTheDup (disco)
    Comment held for moderation.
  • DCRoss (disco) in reply to tharpa
    tharpa:
    One wonders if Andy even bothered to tell Al about the new invention called "where clauses".

    There.

    What?

    There, clauses. There, castle.

    Why are you talking that way?

    I thought you wanted to.

  • tharpa (disco) in reply to DCRoss

    Castle? Don't you mean North Pole?

  • Dragnslcr (disco) in reply to Hasteur
    Hasteur:
    And nobody thought to, you know, call Al out to the grader for the lack of competence in his design and utter lack of contribution to the project? Letting him get through the course (and pick up his diploma) only made everyone elses diplomas that much worse.

    Sounds like good preparation for "the real world".

  • Gurth (disco) in reply to Dragnslcr

    I always thought good preparation for that was turning off your TV before the show begins.

  • Shoreline (disco)
    Like most schools, Andy’s requried a... group project...

    Everyone hates it when they requrie those. At least our uni gave us the ability to redistribute marks.

  • Adynathos (disco) in reply to Shoreline

    Gaining experience with a group project (especially the challenges and difficulties involved) may be more valuable than "just another coding project".

  • locallunatic (disco) in reply to Adynathos
    Adynathos:
    Gaining experience with a group project (especially the challenges and difficulties involved) may beis more valuable than "just another coding project".

    FTFY

  • Shoreline (disco) in reply to Adynathos
    Adynathos:
    Gaining experience with a group project (especially the challenges and difficulties involved) may be more valuable than "just another coding project".

    I've always wondered if the experience could be enhanced, and what the implications would be if the whole class was treated like company employees (in some cases, preferably better than company employees).

    Maybe get some source-control involved, that way there's fallback options if the group project doesn't pan out. It's possible to see people's check-ins. Of course, that's very software-engineering-centric.

    If education is supposed to mean better jobs, the education should parallel the industry.

  • redwizard (disco) in reply to Shoreline
    Comment held for moderation.
  • dkf (disco) in reply to redwizard
    redwizard:
    Yes, you could prove your competence otherwise through a retest, assuming they gave you the chance, but why risk going through all that?

    That's why a commit history is useful. It's a type of audit trail, and it stops all sorts of shenanigans.

    However, actual real-world projects are about a hell of a lot more than just coding. Some students totally forget this bit. Don't be those guys.

  • HardwareGeek (disco) in reply to redwizard
    redwizard:
    you could prove your competence otherwise through a retest

    That might prove you competence, but doesn't prove you contributed to the group project. A team member could be perfectly competent but fail to contribute to the project due to laziness, of course, or illness, family troubles or a host of other reasons. Testing should not be a substitute for demonstrated contribution to the project.

    That said, it often happens in the real world that individual and team results get tied together in ways that are not fair — individuals rewarded for successes to which they under-contributed, and teams penalized for failures that properly belong to a particular individual, sometimes even on an entirely separate project1 — and exposure to this in an academic environment is not entirely inappropriate. However, the instructor really should have a way of measuring individual contributions, and source-control is a great way to do that (as will as teaching the use and value of source-control).

    1 That is true in spades here. More about that in a few weeks when I don't work here any more.

  • Adynathos (disco) in reply to Shoreline

    My university does a really good job here. The bachelor's thesis is a group project - students form groups of 4-5 and select tasks from a pool of orders submitted by external companies. So it it not only a group project but also a real industry task.

    Shoreline:
    Maybe get some source-control involved
    We did two team projects during the studies, and source control was an obvious choice. How do you imagine a group project without source control?

    If I were to score such projects, I would decrease the score for not using source control.

  • dkf (disco) in reply to Adynathos
    Adynathos:
    How do you imagine a group project without source control?

    Option 1: emailing round zip files. Option 2: using a shared dropbox folder.

    :facepalm:

  • FrostCat (disco) in reply to HardwareGeek
    HardwareGeek:
    More about that in a few weeks when I don't work here any more.

    [anticipation]

  • HardwareGeek (disco) in reply to FrostCat
    FrostCat:
    [anticipation]

    Bookmarked, so that maybe I'll remember to fulfill your anticipation.

  • Tsaukpaetra (disco) in reply to dkf

    Option ErrorNotFound: Box of "Papers" containing "photographs" of the "meeting notes" detailing the "project status" and "revisions".


    Filed under: Sorry, Error 62928: Out of Memory; While: Iterating subcontainers

  • cheong (disco)

    Any chance AI is porting working FoxPro code in his company to the language the project is using?

    If he really worked thousands of projects and produce this kind of code, it's pretty scary.

  • Scarlet_Manuka (disco)
    Remy:
    I have worked with veteran "enterprise" developers who actually did shit like this. I once inherited a VB6 application that used 2-d arrays to hold record sets
    Pretty much par for the course, isn't it? I know I've seen that anti-pattern quite often on this site...
    - AND ReDimed the array with every returned row.
    :wtf:
  • Dlareg (disco) in reply to HardwareGeek
    HardwareGeek:
    For example, according to the database, today’s date was “Martha Sawyer”.

    Nobody picked up on the fact that somehow Andy wants to get the current date out of a database? Really in most languages there is a better way of getting that?

  • Gurth (disco) in reply to redwizard
    redwizard:
    Otherwise, it's Al's word against Andy's.
    Even without actual source control, it should have been easy enough to show the instructor the code that Al wrote, to compare against the code that was actually turned in.
  • Yazeran (disco) in reply to Dlareg

    Sure there are ways of getting the current date in most common languages.

    However for database applications it can be an advantage to get it from the db which could even be on a different server and thus could in theory be set to an other time (DST or small offset although that should be fixed by ntp).

    By getting it from the db, all times and dates are synchronised to a single time frame and the order of timing events will be clear.

  • Dlareg (disco) in reply to Yazeran
    Yazeran:
    Sure there are ways of getting the current date in most common languages.

    However for database applications it can be an advantage to get it from the db which could even be on a different server and thus could in theory be set to an other time (DST or small offset although that should be fixed by ntp).

    By getting it from the db, all times and dates are synchronised to a single time frame and the order of timing events will be clear.

    I agree. Not doing much DB stuff myself since I'm in engineering and people like flat text files and matlab over here. But on the other hand we have five different fingers.....

  • Shoreline (disco) in reply to redwizard
    redwizard:
    ... why risk going through all that?

    Are you saying that the system of group-projects is fundamentally broken and open to being unfair?

  • PJH (disco) in reply to Dlareg
    Comment held for moderation.
  • Yazeran (disco) in reply to Shoreline

    Yes. That's exactly what he is saying (as is group exams, although to a lesser degree if they are oral).

    From my personal experience, neither works as intended, as the smart and/or competent students end up doing most of the work as they do not want to take the risk of a low grade because someone else in the group is lazy or not as competent.

  • CarrieVS (disco) in reply to PJH
    PJH:
    I've only got 4. And a thumb.

    I have 10, two of which are thumbs.

  • RaceProUK (disco) in reply to CarrieVS
    CarrieVS:
    I have 10, two of which are thumbs.
    All on one handpaw? :stuck_out_tongue:
  • CarrieVS (disco) in reply to RaceProUK
    Comment held for moderation.
  • Bulb (disco) in reply to Adynathos
    Adynathos:
    How do you imagine a group project without source control?

    Back when we did such project, colleagues didn't use version control. They used patches and tarballs. In fact, back then (it was 2-3 years. they started 2000 and finished 2002; we finished later because we mismanaged) it was the same process as Linux was using back then. Meanwhile we struggled with CVS and then switched to Arch (it was not GNU yet). Does anybody here remember TLA? It was heavily inspired by that tarballs and patches workflow to the point that it stored the data in tarballs and patches… (it was vastly superior to subversion already though :grinning:)

  • Dlareg (disco) in reply to PJH
    PJH:
    I've only got 4. And a thumb.
    class Thumb(Finger):
        pass
    
  • PJH (disco) in reply to Dlareg

    thumb and finger should both be derived from digit - your test-case is wrong.

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