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Admin
Step 1. Ctrl + A
<FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #efefef">Step 2. Hit del.</FONT>
aaaaahhh... much better, now what do we want it to do again? [:)]
Admin
So, what about it is so great? You cite a lot of things you don't like about it, and then say those are unimportant. What are the serious flaws in other languages that it overcomes?
Admin
Yipe! Based on the functional "style" and all the parentheses, I started looking for (CAR ) or (COND )...
Admin
"I have even heard "real" programmers, you know the ones who work in C & Assembler, say that VB makes sense for some things. So if you don't have anything useful to contribute ABOUT THE CODE, shut up."
A "real" programmer is one who works in C & Assembler? Are you serious?
Oh brother...[8-)]
Admin
I consulted at a very large global manufacturing company for about a year, several years ago. Their engineering department -- dozens, if not hundreds, of people, in various locations -- used a networked Access application for certain project management and accounting tasks.
Nobody thought this was a good idea. But the IS policy was that there was to be no custom development. All enterprise systems were to be implemented by configuring Peoplesoft appropriately. After much dispute, the engineering department was given permission to hire their own consultants, but the catch was that they could only use Office. No real programming languages. No real database. Oh, and they couldn't use ODBC to connect to the Peoplesoft database, either, even for read-only access, so no integration with the enterprise systems was possible.
Hence the most elaborate, carefully engineered, and finely-tuned Access application I have ever seen.
Admin
To be honest, I agree with the above completely, with one change:
... "real" programmers, you know the ones who know how to program in C & Assembler ...
You don't have to use it, but you really should know how.
Admin
No, it's VBA written in Access; the "bracketed variable name" as you call it is a common way to refer to columns in a recordset.
Admin
I'm never posting to this forum again. And this is why...
I'm tired of the contradictions. When I say "contradictions" I mean I'm tired of people always contradicting your point. It doesn't matter what your point is. It will inevitably be contradicted in the very next post.
And it's usually stupid stuff too. It usually equates to "My point is right...because I read it on some blog that it's right...and I use the product...so there!" It's so juvenile.
There's absolutely no argument, no facts, nothing. Just preference. "Access is better because I use it." How dumb does that sound? Well, that's what it's like here.
And one final note. Javascript is a scripting language and it does suck.
Admin
We'll miss ya.
As this board evidences, the world is full of people of varying levels of intelligence, experience and maturity. If the wheat / chaff ratio is unsatisfactory to you, far be it from any of us to beg you to stay. I also think you are generalizing quite a bit, and are probably ticked off about a few particular instances.
From where I'm sitting, there's plenty of good stuff here. Between the "language wars" (VB versus everyone else), debates about readability versus performance, attempts to understand, justify, or improve the code, there is plenty of entertaining stuff here that makes those few stupid comments insignificant. I challenge you to find a forum anywhere that isn't members-only that doesn't contain posts similar to those you are griping about.
As an aside, I think there it is important to distinguish between Java and JavaScript. I believe people often confuse the two, or even think they are the same. Mind, I'm not saying JavaScript is a terrific language or anything, but it does have it's uses and appears to be present in anything other than the most static / simple web pages, so why does everyone use it if it sucks so bad?
Admin
I actually kinda agree with you. It's rare if I post anymore (like now - as anonymous) because of the reaction I usually get. The few times I have posted the responses were so "contradictory" and demeaning that I felt like a complete horse's ass. It sounded like they were right. What they said made sense. But who knows if it was backed up by actual fact? And I wasn't about to take the time to check what little facts they provided. So now instead of "getting clowned" every time I post I just read the posts. It's safer.
Admin
Never forget the classic adage "Don't believe everything you read." Have some self-confidence! Either take the time to prove them wrong, or ignore them completely. Don't let them stop you from enjoying the good stuff.
Admin
Dude...I think you opened a can of worms cuz I'm an anonymous poster too...for the same reason. You're right on man cuz I was clowned before too..and I felt like a jackass. We're talking major clownage. <FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #efefef">I'm a new programmer and I just want to contribute every now and then. But I don't want to feel like a moron. [:^)]</FONT>
Admin
For those whining about being "clowned". I do not know who you are, because you choose to hide behind the anonymous label. From the quality of some of the crap that spews forth from the anonymous posters, I think being "clowned" was well deserved.
Though, I still very much enjoy those who post their justifaction for some of the WTF's that make no sense themselves and the fallout that occurs after the posts.
My advice: "Quit Whining"
Admin
That was one line when it was first submitted?
holy shit
Admin
The only reason to feel like a moron is that you choose to. If you're a new programmer, how can you expect not to make a lot of mistakes and make comments that reflect a lack of understanding? That's what learning is about! Just because some ubergeek with self-image issues wants to "clown" you, consider that it reflects more on them than it does on you.
For myself, and I imagine many here, new blood is welcome. Heck, spending time here is a great way to learn what NOT to do if you're new to the game. And I'm sure many experienced people have learned things from new people who come along without the long-entrenched / preconceived notions of how things are. Making comments and getting corrected = learning. It's a free tool
Not to say that I have a very thick skin either - I often have a hard time taking abuse, but I'm learning. If you hide from it, you'll never overcome it.
Please do stick around!
Admin
And heck, it's not like you have to register with your real Name, Address, and Phone number... Just make something up.. At least then people who are discussing things with you can do so without being confused by the other 100 anonymous posts in the thread. If you make too many "stupid mistakes" and are embarassed, go create a new account and start over!
Admin
[8o|] I am the ubergeek of which you speak. [8o|]
I hail from Belgium...where the rest of my Ubergeek bretheren reside.
Flock to me my fellow Ubergeeks!
And descend upon this forum with all the might of Ubergeekdom!
Admin
Um, dude? Maybe you should make that UberFreak.
Admin
Admin
Really? I'd have agreed with Jeff.
Since you obviously have so much experience with Access development, perhaps you can enlighten me.
A) What was Access designed to do?
B) Why does it not fill that specific role well?
C) What are the better alternatives out there, for that specific role?
Waiting expectantly for your reply,
Xander
Admin
Since you obviously have so much experience with Access development, perhaps you can enlighten me.
A) What was Access designed to do?
Minor database that holds simple values, or as you would in your role, hold your recipes [:P] Smaller website/internal apps, not ones that do transactional or mission critical data.
B) Why does it not fill that specific role well?
Expandability. While Access does do well for minor things (especially for the price vs SQL Server and Oracle), it can limit you later on. That's a Cost analysis to make up front, though.
C) What are the better alternatives out there, for that specific role?
MySQL. Can't beat the price on that one. Additionally, its select time is much faster. While inserts take considerably more time, most other operations are equal (and you could always tweak the source if you need). Ya also got a bajillion other nerds tweaking it for free in their spare time, so it's a constantly updatable product.
Waiting expectantly for your reply,
Xander
BOO![H]
Admin
LOL! Check your email, Ghost.
Admin
Why do you put my code on the net - can't you read the copyright notice!
Admin
Setting aside for the moment the question if you are actually the author of the code (it doesn't matter), it's use in the context of this website would clearly fall under the "Fair Use" clause of Copyright law.
Admin
Sorry, I can't agree with that. This is common mistake to evaluate price of software by its off the shelf price. It's especially not true for development software. The price you pay in the store is a tiny tip of the iceberg you'll invest in it later. The argument of price is very popular among open source folks. I can see only one reason why: usually they're teenagers, students or geeks who never saw how SW comany manages its development and makes money. No, I don't want "to tweak the source", thank you. I want to get my job done.
We all know the famous theorem is that an infinite number of monkeys typing
for an infinite amount of time will produce Encyclopaedia Britannica sometime. Well, Internet proved it wrong.
Admin
I'm not sure that code was "okay" to begin with.
And, I broke the code in a less-subtle way: I replaced "Format([SOL_DATE_REQD],"ww",1,1)" with solYear to see if anyone would notice. No one has.
Admin
Access isn't a bad tool for quick analyzing of database data.
But writing an application in Access is in itself a WTF? You can do it, but it's far from being the right tool.
Admin
>Sorry, I can't agree with that. This is common mistake to evaluate price of software by its off the shelf price. It's especially not true for development software. The price you pay in the store is a tiny tip of the iceberg you'll invest in it later.
Who is talking about a "place in the store"? True for development? What product can you walk into Best Buy and place that entire infrastructure into market?
>The argument of price is very popular among open source folks. I can see only one reason why: usually they're teenagers, students or geeks who never saw how SW comany manages its development and makes money
Obviously this statement is done by a programmer who has no future thought, and fills a role. As far as me being a teenager, student, or a geek, I manage the website development of one of the top 20 most hit sites on the planet. Making money is the bottom line. Your role as a programmer may look at the short term goal of how "open source" and the likes looks (which, BTW, I am not a fan of these) but it comes to the bottom line.
We have over 900 web servers... expansion should take that to 1400 by Q2 2005.
Windows 2003 - 1400 X $2000
Access/SQL Server - 1400 X $20K
Do the math.
For the engineer in me, I'm a fan of MS. The tools are easier to use, more user friendly, and support doesn't come by some teenager.
For the Cost Benefit Analysis of me, what's the choice....
If you look at the major players in the market, cost is the bottom line. Unix and Oracle (MySQL and Access aside) but, OTOH, if you place enough servers to handle loads with MySQL ( or or or) what's the bottom line. For your "teenager" comments, isn't it ironic that the major players in this game don't use MS. I personally hate the Linux/Java/whatever environment, but to be competetive?
>No, I don't want "to tweak the source", thank you. I want to get my job done.
Your job is, if you work for me, to get some product out to market. If you just don't happen to meet that role, so be it. Nothing against you, nothing against me, but it's just not the fit.
Bottom line: You have a job because it creates revenue for whoever employes you. Whatever your preference (which goes in conflict of my own), your position exists because you are a business tool.
And, remember, that can be eliminated if you're not "economically viable".
Desert Ghost
(Nice post AK-47 [;)])
Admin
Sniff..sniff...you...sniff...yelled at me! [:'(]
I...sniff...need a support group! [:(]
Admin
Dear Mike R and the Ubergeeks in Belgium:
Please be more kind to our posters. Do we need to send you to sensitivity training?
Admin
We don't need no steenkin' sensitivity training.
To the anonymous posters out there: I have a challenge for you. I dare you to choose a handle, and actually sign in to the board...
I know, I know... It's not a requirement
Admin
And again, it's not like registering actually ties your post to a traceable identity ... Perhaps its' just simple laziness.
Admin
Oh, so you want us to register so you can attack us formally?
No thanks dude. We prefer anonmity...anononymity...anon...well, however you spell it!
We want to remain anonymous. So our "clownage" will be minimal.
Admin
Whether you post anonymously or not, if your post deserves clownage, it will receive it, so what's the difference?
If you're afraid of being clowned, anonymous or not, why even bother posting?
My only point was that it makes it easier to maintain a response chain (since the forum software lacks threading) if there is an identity to reply to.
I suppose it doesn't really matter. I'm hereby dropping it. Do whatcha want (not that you wouldn't anyway!)
Admin
If you'd register maybe more people would take you seriously. If you're that afraid of a bit of criticism, then, I'd follow Blue's advice...
Admin
I think there will always be a discussion about what is better. Open-source or the commercial tools. In a way, there isn't much difference between these two anyways. Take a look at Linux, for example. There are several commercial companies that make huge profits by providing all kinds of Linux distributions. And they don't make profit by writing the product. No, they make profit by providing support and by generating all kinds of additional tools to the basic system. Their main profit comes from the same source as with Microsoft. It's not in the sales of the product that profits are made. No, it is in providing support to the customers where the true money lies.
The biggest advantage with Microsoft products, however, is that while the products are pretty expensive, they are also quite easy to use so you can almost hire a monkey and let them work with those products. Other products are often quite a bit more complicated than this. Doesn't matter if they're open-source or not, btw. Take Oracle for example. You need to study 5 years for it before you finally get some grip on it...
You could wonder what's more expensive in the long run. Buying W2K3+SQL Server for $2020 per system or hiring a special advisor to help you with the database for $2500 per month. Okay, this advisor might be able to monitor a couple of dozens of systems at the same time but still... You have to keep paying for him while the purchase of software is generally something you have to do once...
This is also the big problem between Linux and Windows. Any monkey can learn to use Windows. But Linux itself isn't as user-friendly as Windows -yet- so you need more specialized people for that. MS creates commercial products that are reasonable easy to install and to use. In general the user doesn't get too many choices because those would only confuse them even more. It's stuff for the big masses, who don't know much more than the average trained monkey.
Many open-source products and several other commercial products however, demand the user to have at least some experience in what they are doing. They sometimes offer that many options that the average monkey would just look to the screen, completely dazed, before they start crying and crying and start to demand to be paid more banana's first...
Open-source software is great for specialists who are well-trained in what they do. The commercial stuff is just better for the monkeys... And this world is full with monkeys... [;)]
Admin
I’m not exaggerating. It’s almost literally what many IT people say. I noticed that usually these people have little knowledge about basic things in economics. I don’t intend to blame all open source community, but, you know, this voice is most audible (at least, for me). I relate it to the fact that people who make such statement usually don’t acquaint with SW development infrastructure. Many of them think that once you finished coding, that’s it. Put it on download.com and go get some beer.
Again, there are impressive open source projects which succeeded to break surface. I don’t know what is the web site you’re working for (is it LiveJournal?). If you managed to lift such big project while relying on open source software, then well done! However, think how much expertise, knowledge and experience it requires to hold all these Linux + MySQL (or whatever) stations running smoothly. Can small/middle sized SW company allow such expertise to itself to maintain its infrastructure? Mostly, the answer is no.
Usually MS has special volume prices. In all companies I worked until today there were kind of agreement for bulk purchase. So, final price is considerably less than Num_of_WS x OS_Price. Don’t use MS yet. I’m not a big guru of Web technologies, so I may be mistaken. But I see that MS’ intentions about server market are very serious. I don’t know what exactly weak points of Windows vs Unices are, but MS has excellent developers and knows how to pursue its goals. UNIX was tweaked for 40 years to be reliable server. It is now. In a couple of years let’s see what MS has to say. I recon it will be something interesting. That puts us (me and an employer) in the same basket. He should spend his resources (my working time) wisely. If he wants me to tweak some half-boiled code instead of working on his product, then I just can’t help here.Admin
I think it's funny that you mentioned the "monkey" bit...do you remember when they had a monkey take the Microsoft certification tests and he did really well? Ever since that happened, being "Microsoft-certified" hasn't held the same prestige.
Admin
(I just wanted to say: I never bothered creating an account because this forum software is so piss-poor that I didn't see the point in going on a wild goose chase to figure out how. I have now bitten the bullet and done so (and gathered several WTFs just from looking at how the forum software is designed, but never mind that). In future, I shall pollute the airwaves with drivel under my own nickname; I hope this means you will all instantly love me and want to have my babies. Thankyou.)
Admin
Hey bat: are you the ubergeek from Belgium?
Admin
<font face="Georgia">Naah, I'm a language junkie from Australia - if you've read anything by "Anonymous" that shows a general interest in programming languages, even languages that are widely loathed by right-thinking geeks everywhere, that was me. I can find something worth
stealemulating in just about any language out there. Well, except Access Basic; you gotta draw the line somewhere.</font>Admin
The open source community often comes up with something nice. Couple of examples are ogg, xvid. That said, these are nice from a "Haha I am ripping off the developers who were dumb enough to release it for free" kind of nice.
GPL code is too open. 50 people contribute? Sure. Why not set up a company that gives one share per contributed KLOC? (or other metric). Then you get openness, and profit! Typically GPL developers argue that they get money back from funded mods to the project. Cool. Notice that if you own the source you can do that too?
As we are talking database servers, say MySQL and MS. Remember that a MSSQL licence (+ a windows one) of about MySQLs level sets you back what? 20 developer hours worth of money? You dont think that youll get those hours back with the huge amount of features you get with MSSQL?
Regardless... when did MySQL even get sprocs? About 3 months back or so? You think I want to trust a database server that virgin with my valuable data?
And then of course the omnipresent issue of security. I read an article on the register a few months back. It seemed fairly unbiased - even a little in Linux's favour. Basically although there was more (about 50%) critical vunerabilities in MS products, these were fixed in an average of 48 hours (a lot of "This is wrong and this is the patch" there). Linuxy stuff had an average of two fucking weeks before a patch was out!
My flatmate hates "Furrys" (a particular sexual perversion involving animals). When he found out that a "Furry" IRC server was running an open source ircd, he did the following.
Browsed over to their bugtraq.
Found a suitible vunerability (published on the internet - WTF)
Wrote a quick exploit as per the instructions/information provided.
Tested it.
Crashed yiffnet.org or whatever the fuck it was hourly for the next week.
This took him about 5 mins. Open source is inherently more secure when vunerabilities are published in an easily searchable bugtraq for an average of 2 weeks? Now that is a WTF in itself.
Regardless, if your database server is not behind a beefy firewall, then you are a noob. ;)
Admin
Note on security: why Windows are under Linux firewalls - not otherwise? (forbidden word: Akamai - now I will be deleted for sure)
And about monkeys, whom can use any MS product instantly... well, but if any monkey CAN use MS products, what are certificates for? It is MS scam??
Admin
When the developer who inherited this mess sees a field name called [SOL_DATE_REQD] in an single-line iif statement like that, she should think:
Oh crap, I'm S O L . . .
~ Brent Railey
Admin
Bat, welcome! Glad to put a a name to the posts. :)
I don't recall the registering process having too many WTFs involved, but I may have been a little intoxicated at the time.
We all agree the forum software in its' entirety is crap though.
Admin
PostGre is a fairly decent open-source choice too IMHO, which has been around for quite awhile and supports sprocs and udfs...
(let the PostGre flames begin!)
Admin
Well, since companies who hire monkeys are managed by trained monkeys, I can only assume they want to make sure the monkeys they hire have the proper training with some tool.
Well, okay... Most MS tools do require some deeper knowledge once you want to optimize things and improve a lot of things. In those cases, additional knowledge is quite handy. But it doesn't change the fact that a trained monkey can set up a very basic system already with barely no additional study. Install Windows? Insert CD-rom, reboot from CD, next, enter key, next, next, next, next, next, next, finish and just wait for Windows to install itself. A monkey could do that.
It's just not as secure as when you let a real professional do the same, but hey... Monkeys are cheap and only cost peanuts, professionals are expensive.
Thing is, MS tools are created in a way that any user can quickly set up things and get some experience. Lots of help pages, lots of hints and lots of (unsafe) default values. Many other products are a bit more complicated than this.
Admin
Admin
nw:=Format(Now(),"ww",1,1)+0; ny:=Format(Now(),"yyyy")+0; rw:=Format([sol_date_reqd],"ww",1,1)+0; RW:=Format([SOL_DATE_REQD],"ww",1,1)+0; ry:=Format([sol_date_reqd],"yyyy")+0; fw:=nw+10; min(a,b):=IIf(a>b,b,a); red(a):=IIf(a>52,a-52,a);
case ry==ny & rw>=nw: red(min(rw,fw)) case ry>ny: min(RW,red(fw)) default: -1
The simplest. All other simplifications would require external knowledge about sol_date_reqd.