• (cs) in reply to jonnyq
    jonnyq:
    Well based on the numbers in the image, the sears one doesn't make sense... maybe there was something cut out of the image...

    The tax in the 1 year plan is 8.2%, the second year plan is 7.4%, and the third is 7% tax...

    It's impossible to tell where the "You save $x.xx" numbers are coming from.

    And even if you go by the bottom line, the "savings" don't add up to anywhere near the 10% or 15% numbers.

    It looks like they were just making up random numbers. You can't tell where any of them come from.

    good lord, are people really this bad at math? 272.14 * .15 = $40.82 // = 15% savings 272.14 - 40.82 = 231.32 // new subtotal 231.32 * .0825 = 19.08 // 8.25% tax 231.32 + 19.08 = 250.40 // Tadaaa the same total sears came up with

    174.15 * .1 = 17.42 // 10% savings 174.15 - 17.42 = 156.73 // new subtotal 156.73 * .0825 = 12.93 // 8.25% tax 156.73 + 12.93 = 169.96 // tadaa the same total sears came up with

    at least you got the math right for the first plan.

  • (cs) in reply to journalism WTF
    journalism WTF:
    Also, maybe someone else can make sense of the FSA advising UK ministers to implement voluntary action by manufacturers.

    But it seems to me that if a government implements actions, it's hardly voluntary.

    Only a guess, but it may mean (or make more sense as) "formalise" rather than "implement": i.e. the government creates a formal voluntary code of practice and tries to persuade food producers to adopt it and food retailers to demand that their providers adopt it.

  • Maths Are Hard (unregistered) in reply to jonnyq
    jonnyq:
    The tax in the 1 year plan is 8.2%, the second year plan is 7.4%, and the third is 7% tax...

    It's impossible to tell where the "You save $x.xx" numbers are coming from.

    And even if you go by the bottom line, the "savings" don't add up to anywhere near the 10% or 15% numbers.

    It looks like they were just making up random numbers. You can't tell where any of them come from.

                   15%      10%      0%
price      $272.14  $174.15  $81.16
you save    $40.82   $17.42   $0.00
new price  $231.32  $156.74  $81.16
8.25% tax   $19.08   $12.93   $6.70
pay only   $250.40  $169.67  $87.86
  • (cs) in reply to campkev
    campkev:

    good lord, are people really this bad at math?

    See my last post where I figured that out. I, like everyone else, was trying to get some sort of math to work when comparing the different plans to each other. Once you figure out that it doesn't work that way (completely non-obvious from the text of the ad), then yeah, it makes sense.

  • (cs) in reply to JimM
    JimM:
    campkev:
    Tim:
    I.e. the 'price' should be $243.48, $162.32, $81.16. It's not that hard to grasp!
    See my last post
    If you can't be bothered to repeat your argument why bother commenting at all?

    I'm with this one being a WTF, but not on technical grounds. The flyer is misleading, as it suggests a 3 year policy has a 15% saving against buying yearly policies (quotes: The longer your coverage the better the value; save 15%), but the figures do not support this: you simply save 15% off the cost of a 3 yearly policy which itself is more than 3x the cost of a 1 year policy - i.e. worse value on a $/year basis. Sears should've made some comparison to the cost of 3 1 yearly policies if they wanted to use that tag line, to demonstrate the value of the longer plans.

    well, I have said it twice but for the slow and lazy I will say it a third time. Buying a one year plan 3 years in a row is not going to simply cost three times the current year cost. The washer will be a year older when you go to buy the second year, meaning it will be more likely to break during that year, so the price will go up. It will go up even more for the third year.

    Plus, there's this little-known economic theory called "inflation". It's really complicated, but I'll try to explain it for you in terms you can understand. Things tend to go up in price over time. So if you figure 3% inflation plus the factors I mentioned in the last paragraph, you will probably end up paying more than $273 if you buy a 1 year plan three years in a row.

  • truth in advertising (unregistered) in reply to jonnyq
    jonnyq:
    See my last post where I figured that out. I, like everyone else, was trying to get some sort of math to work when comparing the different plans to each other. Once you figure out that it doesn't work that way (completely non-obvious from the text of the ad), then yeah, it makes sense.

    If you're unfamiliar with the concept that numbers in advertisements are obfuscated by design, then you're sort of a WTF, yourself.

  • anonymous (unregistered) in reply to campkev
    campkev:
    well, I have said it twice but for the slow and lazy I will say it a third time. Buying a one year plan 3 years in a row is not going to simply cost three times the current year cost.

    At this point, I'm not sure where you fall on this being a math WTF or an advertising WTF.

    I believe the flaw in your logic is that you will not be able to buy a 1-year plan next year and still pay the same rate (even adjusted for inflation).

    They're saying they have 3 prices for three contracts of different lengths. They'll discount the 2-year price a certain percentage, and they'll discount the 3-year price by a slightly larger percentage.

    If I'm merely restating what you've said, I apologize.

  • anonymous again (unregistered) in reply to anonymous
    anonymous:
    campkev:
    well, I have said it twice but for the slow and lazy I will say it a third time. Buying a one year plan 3 years in a row is not going to simply cost three times the current year cost.

    At this point, I'm not sure where you fall on this being a math WTF or an advertising WTF.

    I believe the flaw in your logic is that you will not be able to buy a 1-year plan next year and still pay the same rate (even adjusted for inflation).

    They're saying they have 3 prices for three contracts of different lengths. They'll discount the 2-year price a certain percentage, and they'll discount the 3-year price by a slightly larger percentage.

    If I'm merely restating what you've said, I apologize.

    Upon re-reading, it might have been a flaw in the logic you're pointing out, not yours.

    My head hurts. I have to go lie down.

  • ch. (unregistered) in reply to Lincoln Spendthrift

    Warren Brown CAN'T ADD

  • (cs) in reply to C. F. Martin
    C. F. Martin:
    Someone You Know:
    The Real WTF is that there's actually a town called King Of Prussia, Pennsylvania.

    There is also a town called 'Intercourse' which my wife always accuses me of driving too fast through.

    My favorite town in PA however is 'Blue Ball'. Other favorites include Bath PA and Jim Thorpe PA.

    Captcha == venio (as in Venio PA)

    If you want really good place names, try Newfoundland, Canada, which has towns named "Dildo" and "Joe Batt's Arm".

  • me too (unregistered)

    I once drove through a town named "Amusing and Slightly Suggestive Name That We Can Put on Postcards and Tchotchkes".

    True story.

  • (cs) in reply to anonymous
    anonymous:
    campkev:
    well, I have said it twice but for the slow and lazy I will say it a third time. Buying a one year plan 3 years in a row is not going to simply cost three times the current year cost.

    At this point, I'm not sure where you fall on this being a math WTF or an advertising WTF.

    I fall on the side of this being not a WTF at all. Other than a "W(hy)TF was this posted?"

  • JamesQMurphy (unregistered) in reply to occasional reader
    occasional reader:
    You must have been there too! The quality of clientele was not exactly of the highest standard and there were more than a couple of swamp donkeys on the prowl there!

    Swamp Donkeys? Oh god I peed my pants when I read that. Exactly how would a swamp donkey prowl?

  • (cs) in reply to campkev

    As far the sears ad, a 4 year plan would probably buy you a new dishwasher anyway, so would you really want to pay almost as much for another dishwasher to maintain the one you are buying now ?

  • (cs)

    For anyone struggling with the insurance issue, here's an exercise to make it clear.

    Call up a life insurance agent ( or get an online quote ). Ask to compare the monthly price on $100,000 of life insurance with a 10 year term for a 30 year old, 40 year old, and a 50 year old. Then ask for the price on a 30 year policy for a 30 year old.

    It will cost much more than triple the 10 year rate for a 30 year old, but less than the sum of the 10 year policies.

  • (cs) in reply to obediah
    obediah:
    For anyone struggling with the insurance issue, here's an exercise to make it clear.

    Call up a life insurance agent ( or get an online quote ). Ask to compare the monthly price on $100,000 of life insurance with a 10 year term for a 30 year old, 40 year old, and a 50 year old. Then ask for the price on a 30 year policy for a 30 year old.

    It will cost much more than triple the 10 year rate for a 30 year old, but less than the sum of the 10 year policies.

    Valid point, though I would guess the failure curve is a little different for people than for dishwashers. In my experience, with durable goods, you have a high failure rate in the first year or so, then a substantial drop, and then a steady increase as it ages. YMMV, and IANA actuary.

    The Real WTF in the Sears ad is that they monkey about with "discounts" instead of just showing a reduced base price. I wonder how many people thought "WTF, this is more than 3x as much" who would have otherwise bought the three-year plan.

    The second Real WTF is that you know some clown got paid big money to design a crappy and confusing ad that probably ended up reducing profits in the long run.

  • (cs) in reply to campkev
    campkev:
    anonymous:
    campkev:
    JimM:
    Sears should've made some comparison to the cost of 3 1 yearly policies if they wanted to use that tag line, to demonstrate the value of the longer plans.
    well, I have said it twice but for the slow and lazy I will say it a third time. Buying a one year plan 3 years in a row is not going to simply cost three times the current year cost.
    At this point, I'm not sure where you fall on this being a math WTF or an advertising WTF.
    I fall on the side of this being not a WTF at all. Other than a "W(hy)TF was this posted?"
    It's clearly an advertising WTF. Yes, the numbers add up if you look at them the right way (I did actually read your original comment before posting mine you know, and I was able to understand prior to that how the figures worked; I'm not as dumb as you seem to think). That wasn't what I was arguing about. If you read my comment you'll see I didn't say "But the three year plan costs more than 3 x the 1 year plan! What a WTF!". You can see that I clearly said the cost of 3 plans, not 3 times the cost of 1 plan.

    The use of the word "value" is misleading, as it implies a $/yr saving against the one year plan which doesn't actually exist in the figures they provide. In fact, I doubt they would sell someone a cover plan if they came back after a year and said "I have a one year old appliance, can I have another year's cover please?" - I've never met a store that would insure an appliance post-sale. The "saving" has nothing to do with the price being less per year, it has to do with their increasing discount on the longer plans. Yes, it makes financial sense that their longer plans are more expensive per year, as the appliance if more likely to fail. Yes, after the discount their longer coverage plans are, minimally, less per year than a one year plan. But the tag line "The longer your coverage the better the value" is misleading, as it is not the value but the discount that increases. Therefore, the tag line is an advertising WTF.

  • ShatteredArm (unregistered) in reply to campkev
    campkev:
    anonymous:
    campkev:
    well, I have said it twice but for the slow and lazy I will say it a third time. Buying a one year plan 3 years in a row is not going to simply cost three times the current year cost.

    At this point, I'm not sure where you fall on this being a math WTF or an advertising WTF.

    I fall on the side of this being not a WTF at all. Other than a "W(hy)TF was this posted?"

    I blame it on our public education system not teaching actuarial science in high school.

  • (cs) in reply to Another dutch person
    Another dutch person:
    Another WTF is that parts of the address on the T-mobile envelop are blurred away, but the barcode below is not. The barcode can be easily decoded and contains address.
    Oops, I probably would have forgotten that, too!

    That barcode is called KIX code, used by Royal TNT Post. If you use it on bulk email, you can get a discount. Information here: http://www.tntpost.nl/zakelijk/klantenservice/documentatiedownloads/downloads/kIX_code/index.aspx

    So now we know where you live and your phone number. Don't call us, we call you. >:)

  • (cs)

    The bank is obviously located somewhere in northern Canada, possibly Tuktoyaktuk.

  • Postcode the Second of Prussia (unregistered) in reply to strcmp
    strcmp:
    Where do you see German postcodes on this site?
    The postcode of King of Prussia, obviously.
  • Guest (unregistered)

    Funny thing is that although "Bart" blurred his letter, he left the barcode for all to see. And that contains the full (Dutch) "postcode" and house-number. Both of them together uniquely identify his home. :)

  • (cs)

    Can't reeeeeeead.... If reading is without yooou....

    (sorry, but I couldn't withstand this alone anymore)

  • (cs)

    That card was really supposed to be for Mr. Reid Kant

  • (cs) in reply to JimM
    JimM:
    I've never met a store that would insure an appliance post-sale.

    Then you've obviously never bought an appliance from Sears.

  • barcode (unregistered) in reply to Guest
    Guest:
    Funny thing is that although "Bart" blurred his letter, he left the barcode for all to see. And that contains the full (Dutch) "postcode" and house-number. Both of them together uniquely identify his home. :)

    Welcome to two hours ago.

  • (cs) in reply to campkev
    campkev:
    JimM:
    I've never met a store that would insure an appliance post-sale.
    Then you've obviously never bought an appliance from Sears.
    No faeces, Sherlock...
  • IByte (unregistered)

    If you change "save 10%" and "save 15%" into "add 10%" and "add 15%", the values you get are suspiciously close... I guess someone had his maths reversed.

  • Mathias (unregistered)

    Do you really want to remove this phone?

    • Yes, remove phone.
    • Phone not found.
  • hymie! (unregistered) in reply to C. F. Martin
    C. F. Martin:
    There is also a town called 'Intercourse' which my wife always accuses me of driving too fast through.

    Perhaps you need to stop on the way and spend a little time in Letitz.

  • Thunder (unregistered) in reply to occasional reader
    occasional reader:
    I liked the fact that the Sears card being issued to the King of Prussia.

    I wonder how many very senior foreign dignitaries (in this case of non-existent countries) are the proud owners of a membership card to such an austere corporation?

    I once was the proud owner of a membership card to the 'Irish Club' in Nottingham UK in the name of Julius Caesar. No one ever checked though :-)

    "King of Prussia" is the name of a town in Pennsylvania, where this was addressed to.

  • Mogri (unregistered)

    I think Alex is trolling us re: the Sears thing. Or maybe it was submitted by TopCod3r.

  • (cs) in reply to campkev
    campkev:
    Plus, there's this little-known economic theory called "inflation". It's really complicated, but I'll try to explain it for you in terms you can understand. Things tend to go up in price over time. So if you figure 3% inflation plus the factors I mentioned in the last paragraph, you will probably end up paying more than $273 if you buy a 1 year plan three years in a row.
    There's another thing called "time value of money". From Sears' point of view, $100 collected from you today is better than $100 collected from you in two years. Even with 0% inflation this is true, because they can invest today's $100 and earn interest before spending any of it to provide the future service.

    Given that effect, businesses usually just offer today's rate for prepurchasing future services. Sure it's less than they would charge new customers in the future, but the interest (as well as locking in business now) more than makes up for the difference.

    Your point on the washer become more likely to break is valid.

  • (cs)

    Uhhh, the Sears one isn't a WTF.

    Sure the initial price goes up per year as the plan gets longer but so does the % savings, hence the final price goes down. Granted it's sly to say "save 10%" and have those savings apply to the 2 year price rather than the price of 1 year multiplied by 2, but no one ends up getting scammed.

    To compare extend all plans to 6 years.

    1 year at a time * 6 years = $87.86 * 6 = $527.16 2 years at a time * 3 sets = $169.99 * 3 = $509.97 3 years at a time * 2 sets = $250.40 * 2 = $500.80

  • sf (unregistered) in reply to C. F. Martin
    C. F. Martin:
    Someone You Know:
    The Real WTF is that there's actually a town called King Of Prussia, Pennsylvania.

    There is also a town called 'Intercourse' which my wife always accuses me of driving too fast through.

    My favorite town in PA however is 'Blue Ball'. Other favorites include Bath PA and Jim Thorpe PA.

    Captcha == venio (as in Venio PA)

    You have to admit, though, that it's pretty convenient to have Intercourse less than 8 miles from Blue Ball.

    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&saddr=Blue+Ball,+Pennsylvania&daddr=Intercourse,+Pennsylvania&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&sll=40.085427,-76.082726&sspn=0.118071,0.137157&ie=UTF8&ll=40.078203,-76.077232&spn=0.118083,0.137157&z=13

  • (cs)

    Anybody know where the postal code "8011GL" is?

  • (cs) in reply to Someone You Know
    Someone You Know:
    The Real WTF is that there's actually a town called King Of Prussia, Pennsylvania.
    TRWTF is believing that is a strange name for a town in a state where you can find Blue Ball, Intercourse, and Scalp Level.

    TRealerWTF is that the street address is blacked out but not the ZIP+4. Hint: try Mapquest.

  • pabraham (unregistered) in reply to psiphiorg

    Venestraat in Zwolle, Netherlands.

  • pabraham (unregistered) in reply to pabraham
    pabraham:
    Venestraat in Zwolle, Netherlands.

    ... in reply to "Where is 8011GL?"

  • BadFellas.org (unregistered)

    "T-Mobile prutsers" Nice filename ;)

  • Herohtar (unregistered) in reply to Another dutch person
    Another dutch person:
    The barcode can be easily decoded and contains address.

    Let's see it then.

  • Worf (unregistered) in reply to campkev
    campkev:
    But you are missing the point of buying a one year plan for a 2006 Dishwasher now, would be $86. Buying another 1 year plan a year later, when the dishwasher was a year older and more likely to break would probably cost you 90-95 dollars. A third plan another year later would probably be 100-105 dollars. So the 273 without a discount is still cheaper than buying a one year plan 3 years in a row.

    Except in most extended warranty plans, a two-year extension is less than 2*(cost of 1 year). In fact, it's normally 1.5 times the 1 year cost for two years, and that's the starting rate. For 3 years, it may be 2 times the one year cost for the entire package, so you get 1 extra year of protection "for free" when you pay for 2 years of protection.

    Sure it's probably more likely to break down in the 2nd year than the first, but extended warranties are normally priced so the longer term is just a bit more than the shorter term, thus causing more people to say "well, you get an extra year for a little more, why not go for 3 years rather than 2, or 2 years rather than 1?".

    If 2 years base price is more than double one year, most consumers will take one year or none, since they say "well, two years costs more than double one year, so forget it."

    It's all about "Perceived Value" - the value the consumer things they're getting versus the cost. Sears is justifying it with the "discounts" they apply to make the extra years cost less, but cost less in a way that's much bigger than it really is. Those discounts are probably permanent features meant to sway people into the longer terms thinking they're reallying saving 10 or 15%, when it's really just a few bucks. (Again, perceived value - the old joke being "Everything 20% Off" signs being compensated with prices rising 25%, thus canceling each other out and the consumer paying the exact same price).

  • (cs) in reply to Herohtar
    Herohtar:
    Another dutch person:
    The barcode can be easily decoded and contains address.

    Let's see it then.

    Well, they've already posted the post code, so this won't do any harm.

    The code decodes into this: 8011GL1000XAM

    Where X is a separator between house number and suffix.

  • Mark V Shaney (unregistered)

    IPPA Computer: Welcome to the Identity Processsing Program of Uhmerica! Please insert your forearm into the forearm receptacle! [Joe inserts his arm] IPPA Computer: Thank you! Please speak your name as it appears on your current federal identity card, document G24L8! Pvt. Joe Bowers: I'm not sure if... IPPA Computer: You have entered the name "Not Sure." Is this correct, Not Sure? Pvt. Joe Bowers: No, it's not correct... IPPA Computer: Thank you! "Not" is correct. Is "Sure" correct? Pvt. Joe Bowers: No, it's not, my name is Joe... IPPA Computer: You have already confirmed your first name is "Not." Please confirm your last name, "Sure." Pvt. Joe Bowers: My last name is not "Sure!" IPPA Computer: Thank you, Not Sure! Pvt. Joe Bowers: No, what I mean is my name is Joe... IPPA Computer: Confirmation is complete. Please wait while I tattoo your new identity on your arm!

  • Anonymousia de Bergerac-Fleur (unregistered)

    "the longer the coverage the better the value"

    It didn't say who the better value was for, though...

  • Joe Average (unregistered)

    I once stumbled upon a similar WTF with address formatting:

    If you export, let's say, 1.000 Adresses from your enterprisey customer database to a text file & import it in Excel as data source for a Word letter, you'll find that Excel guesses the right cell format. "10 A", although common as a house number, will be formatted as 10:00 AM, because it's surely a time description (yuck!). The Excel import does some other weird things to your carefully formatted data, so keep an eye on it...

    So T-Mobile.nl seems to use Excel to process their letters.

  • Alan (unregistered)

    My original thought was that the sears one was not a WTF - but given the amount of confusion it has caused I have to take that back.

  • (cs) in reply to Worf
    Worf:
    Sure it's probably more likely to break down in the 2nd year than the first

    Actually, for something like a dishwasher, it is many times more likely to break down in the first year than in the second. The first year is 'high risk', then the 2nd to 6th year or so it's pretty safe from breaking down. Then it will start getting riskier again.

    It's known as a 'bathtub curve' (look it up on t'internet)

    This is why getting a warranty longer than 1 year is generally a waste of money, and why many countries have a compulsory warranty for the first year, as that's when the vast majority of manufacturing defects will show up.

    I agree with everything else though - and most retailers charge their warranties in line with the bathtub curve, so the first year is expensive, the second year is cheaper than the first year, and the third year is still cheaper. If you could get a 10 year warranty (which is doubtful since retailers are in it to get as much from you as they can, not to give it back) then the price per year would have gone up again.

  • Duroth (unregistered)

    The T-Mobile one isn't necessarily a WTF.

    Perhaps Bart is a homeless guy, who wanders the streets, and comes across this particular street every day at around 10:00 am?

    Or perhaps he's working as a mailman or street sweeper. Most of my coworkers have packages and mail delivered at work, since that's where they are during the day. He might just have an outside job with a tight schedule?

  • Greg (unregistered) in reply to JimM
    JimM:
    In fact, I doubt they would sell someone a cover plan if they came back after a year and said "I have a one year old appliance, can I have another year's cover please?" - I've never met a store that would insure an appliance post-sale.

    Sears does, or rather, they let you extend the service contract you bought when you bought the appliance.

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