The Daily WTF: Curious Perversions in Information Technology

osp70 · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Djinn:
Anonymous:
Djinn:
Anonymous:
Strydyr:

At a prior job, I was once told by a Manager that he'd never hire another programmer with a certification.

"Why ?", I asked.

"Because the people who know what they're doing are too busy working to take those tests."

No trolling here (I'm actually thinking about getting my MCSD) -- just relaying his insight which is true all too often.

I had a coworker tell me that he was glad he didn't interview me. He said that had he interviewed me, he would not have hired me because I have an M.S. in Computer Science and he thinks that people with advanced degrees do not know how to program or how to make it in the real world. (note: he said he was glad he didn't interview me because he was glad I was on the team).

That same person later asked me how to upcast an object type....and why it couldn't be done in OO.

I.e. He asked me why you couldn't do this:

Object a = new Object();
String b = (String) a;

So anyway.

Yeah, dude. People who couldn't afford to go to school are idiots.

Hmm...didn't say that. But I will venture a guess at who is an idiot: Djinn

Maybe just insecure. It is hard to tell on char forums.

Djinn's an idiot. Good one. I'm so sick of society putting people with degrees on a pedestal. "Oh, Jimmy Bigbucks went to Yale. Let's hire him!" when a perfectly good programmer, who ventured out on thier own to learn their trade are often not even considered for positions of which they are equally or possibly more qualified for. Because these rich kids could afford to go to good schools, they get more jobs, and more pay for them. What happens to those who had monetary issues to the extent that even a community college was out of their reach? They work doubly hard to get educated in any way possible. Books, internet, friends, any thing they can find, only to end up getting paid less, if they can even get hired.

This isn't to say people without a degree are always in this situation, or that they are more qualified. It's only the marginilization of often good programmers that is propagated and a form of prejudice. I don't think we should continue the trend of favoring those with degrees. People should be judged on thier skills. If you were in a position to get formal training, then more power to you, but don't think just because you were lucky enough to do so, that you're somehow better than the next guy.

I somewhat agree with you, mind you I have a honours CS, obtained while working fulltime. I didn't learn a specific language in school, in fact the language I use now is one we didn't learn a thing about in university. But the reason that individuals with degrees (i'm talking degrees not certificates from some flavour of the month 'get your degree in one year' school) get preferential treatment is that during their education they obtain the ability to think critically rather than apply the most recent trend or buzzword. At least that's my experience. To learn a new language I didn't need to go to a course, I had the ability to use my foundation of the basics of computer science to learn another way to skin the cat.

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

It goes the other way around, too. I was asked for all sorts of proof of my design knowledge and sent tons of C# samples I wrote in mono and .net over a recruiter, and also took 3 online tests for a job that required 4 years of C# exp, proof of design capability (Booch) and lots of RDBMS experience.

First day I get there I found out I wasn't to work on C#, but to help with a VB6 app for 2 months then maybe (yeah, right) look at porting to C#. The contract was for 6 months.

The VB6 projects including all the COM amounted to 475,000 lines of code and they wanted to have something working within 8 months.

I left after a week and told them not even to bother billing and told the recruiter to not ever call me back.

Alex Papadimoulis · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

cconroy:

Alex Papadimoulis:


 I was working at a medium sized "body shop" before the bubble burst days. Our internetworking team had just hired on a new engineer who dazzled them with the latest buzz-words and claimed he was a Cisco Certified Engineer.





Perhaps he meant "SYSCO Certified Engineer". You know, certified in delivery of napkins and plastic utensils and such.

I was thinking a "Sisqó Certified Engineer". Silver hair and singing about dragons and thongs is not an easy task.

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Djinn:

Djinn's an idiot. Good one. I'm so sick of society putting people with degrees on a pedestal. "Oh, Jimmy Bigbucks went to Yale. Let's hire him!" when a perfectly good programmer, who ventured out on thier own to learn their trade are often not even considered for positions of which they are equally or possibly more qualified for. Because these rich kids could afford to go to good schools, they get more jobs, and more pay for them. What happens to those who had monetary issues to the extent that even a community college was out of their reach? They work doubly hard to get educated in any way possible. Books, internet, friends, any thing they can find, only to end up getting paid less, if they can even get hired.

What do you expect? Do you expect to walk into an employer with nothing to show (no degree, no references and no real work) and expect to be taken seriously? Over someone who went to Yale, MIT or even some lesser school like Washington State (all with a relevent degree, of course)? You are only fooling yourself.

I can see if you can point to a couple of programs/sites/applications that you developed and speak intelligently about them...but if you just walk in and think you are qualified, and that the hiring manager should know you are qualified as well...you are nuts. The truth of the matter is that history is important. People starting out in a field do not have history, so the education becomes paramount.

And who says you have to be rich to goto school? Ever hear of student loans? I know I did!

This isn't to say people without a degree are always in this situation, or that they are more qualified. It's only the marginilization of often good programmers that is propagated and a form of prejudice. I don't think we should continue the trend of favoring those with degrees. People should be judged on thier skills. If you were in a position to get formal training, then more power to you, but don't think just because you were lucky enough to do so, that you're somehow better than the next guy.

Ever hear the phrase "No one ever got fired for buying IBM"? The same holds for large companies hiring new recruits. Do you think the hiring manager would get reemed if the new guy from MIT was a bust? Nope. But imagine the conversation that would take place if the new guy with no credentials was a bust. Yeah...the hiring manager is at stake as well. Take the guy with the degree to cover your own butt. Be realistic.

And I am sorry to say this, but if you do have a job that pays anything...you should be pursuing your degree as well. You even acknowledged the fact that society views those with degress differently so to ignore this fact is foolish. Use that to your advantage. If you care about money or advancement, which it appears you do, then you should be getting your degree.

And don't use the old "no time, too many other things to do". I know people who are single moms/dads who worked nights and weekends to get degrees while working fulltime.

None of this matters if you are going to control your own destiny and start a company, but if you want to be a company man, degrees are going to matter. Simple fact of life...deal with it and move on.

Degrees mean very little about skill, but they still matter for certain things...so...in short...grow up, get over it and work towards your degree. Swallow your pride and actually get off your butt and do it.

ParkinT · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Transcript (excerpt) from an actual interview for a high level developer.

After a series of questions and from a candidate who had lots of "letters after his name" the following question was posed:

Q: Describe the Internet

Long, thoughtful period of concentration, then

A: Object Oriented

Nothing more, no expression of sarcasm. No surprise he was not hired.

Xargon · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
I know C++ wtf code is Hard to find.
cause us c++ guys always do Everything right the First time.

A C++ guy I knew was asked what his favorite editor was. His answer: "I just use cat. I don't make mistakes".

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
fist!

... is what you should be hit with.

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Not having the money to go to school and not having the time to go to school are 2 different things. I could have gone to college but was too busy working full time. I had already learned the majority of what goes into a CS program by the time i was 16, so 4 years in college would have been a waste of my time and money (well except for the social aspect of it).

Honestly, I doubt all of this. First of all, the level of math involved with most CS programs precludes such a statement. Secondly, one wouldn't bother to study the subjects that are part of a CS program because most of it is not used in a day to day job....just for learning experiences and critical thinking skills development.

Additionally, I have to agree with the other poster that said "get back to us in 10 years". When I was 16 a friend of mine and I both were hired as interns by IBM until we graduated from high school. We both continued to work for IBM after highschool, but I reduced my work schedule to goto school at the same time, getting the B.S. in CS. I continued with IBM after graduating from undergrad and my friend was still there. He left to goto a startup which promptly went out of business and I left IBM for another job. It was far easier for me to find a new job than for he. And though I would contend he and I are about the same skill level, our compensation is drastically different (I make far more). Whether or not this is fair is irrelevent. The point is about becoming "stuck" because you cannot move or explore a different avenue. Degrees are another freedom, a liberty. Think of them as a foot in the door. You still have to do the work and prove yourself when you are at a company, but getting past the hundred other resumes helps with degrees.

I will always content that degrees do not make programmers...but I will also encourage everyone to try and get one. Anyone, that is, who is serious about working in this field for years to come.

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

If you don't mind, I'm going to elaborate on your answer as many people seem to be confused by this...

First of all, if you're hooking up two hubs, you -don't- want to hook up all ports in one to all ports in another... WTF good would that do? You'd have NO empty ports. You hook up ONE port from one hub to ONE port from another hub.

Consider Hub A: Choose ONE of 24 possible ports.That is a factor of 24.

Consider Hub B: Connect to ONE of 24 possible ports. That is a factor of 24.

24*24 = 24^2.

Now, just for arguments sake, if you want to hook up EVERY port from Hub A into a port in Hub B (a real WTF):

Consider Hub A: Choose ONE of 24 possible ports. Factor of 24, call it connection i. Next choose ONE of 23 possible ports, factor of 23, call it connection ii... 242322*...*1 = 24!.

Consider Hub B: Take connection i, choose one of 24 possible ports. Take connection ii, choose one of 23 possible ports... 24232222...*1 = 24!

Therefore 24!*24! = (24!)^2.

Goddamn I hate combinatorics.

-- W

Djinn · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:

What do you expect? Do you expect to walk into an employer with nothing to show (no degree, no references and no real work) and expect to be taken seriously? Over someone who went to Yale, MIT or even some lesser school like Washington State (all with a relevent degree, of course)? You are only fooling yourself.

Who said anything about having nothing to show? I like how you mention a 'lesser' school.

Anonymous:

And who says you have to be rich to goto school? Ever hear of student loans? I know I did!

Ever hear of getting denied loans? I know I did!

Ever hear the phrase "No one ever got fired for buying IBM"? The same holds for large companies hiring new recruits. Do you think the hiring manager would get reemed if the new guy from MIT was a bust? Nope. But imagine the conversation that would take place if the new guy with no credentials was a bust. Yeah...the hiring manager is at stake as well. Take the guy with the degree to cover your own butt. Be realistic.

Why would you even bring this up? Do you think a guy arguing the backwardness of society is going to agree that a person in a position of power should put his position of power before what's fair and just?

And I am sorry to say this, but if you do have a job that pays anything...you should be pursuing your degree as well. You even acknowledged the fact that society views those with degress differently so to ignore this fact is foolish. Use that to your advantage. If you care about money or advancement, which it appears you do, then you should be getting your degree.

So by acknowleding the fact that society prejudices people, I should mold myself to fit that? I'm glad we abolished slavery. You might tell the blacks to become white. Hell, you might say that today.

None of this matters if you are going to control your own destiny and start a company, but if you want to be a company man, degrees are going to matter. Simple fact of life...deal with it and move on.

Degrees mean very little about skill, but they still matter for certain things...so...in short...grow up, get over it and work towards your degree. Swallow your pride and actually get off your butt and do it.

A "company man"? Who are you, Pete? Yeah, and what "certain things" are those? To classify yourself?

As a matter of fact, this rant is not much about my self. Despite having very little money to start out with, I did have the opportunity to go to school. I went long enough to get an Associates from a 'lesser' school, though it hasn't much hampered my success. In fact, I'm doing financially better than many of my friends who hold a BS (which is just that) or MS. I pride myself on having gotten so far with so little "formal" education, as it underscores the true distinction of one. I do see people often get turned down due to thier lack of education though, and it's clear to see from thier experience they may be just as suited.

I can understand the defense of a degree though. I will not argue that someone with thier degree has not worked for it, because that is obviously not the case. But the idea of the degree is much inflated, compounded by the fact that you *DID* work for it, and possibly paid for it. With so much time, money, and energy invested in it, you almost have no choice BUT to defend it. But how can you tell us that because society requires it, and because those in power love thier power, I need to "get off my butt and [get] it"?

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

John Smallberries:
JohnO:

Anonymous:
I don't know about you, but when I connect two hubs together I prefer to have open ports so I can, you know, plug computers into it. So a simple one port on A to one port on B is sufficient. In that case it's 24*24 since there's 24 ports on A, choose 1, and 24 ports on B, choose 1.

And, no, if you fully connected them then you'd have more than 24! since you can pick the port on A as well. It would be 24!^2 since it's 24! ways to plug in 24 wires into B and then 24! ways to plug the other ends into A.

If you wanted to count the ways to parallel plug in cables (port 1 on A to port 1 on B) then that's 24! ways since you are only picking one port with 24 wires.

You have the common sense part down but your combinatorial mathematics are lacking. It is indeed 24 factorial, assuming you would not go to and from a port on the same hub and you aren't distinguishing one cable from another. Port 1 on A can go to 24 ports on B. Port 2 on A can then go to 23 ports on B...Port 24 on A can go to 1 port on B. That is 24!.

It's 24! if you use all 24 cables. How many more combinations are there when using only 23, 22, 21...

When using only 1 cable it's 24², right? When using 2 cables it's...ow, my brain.

2 cables would be (24²*23²) / 2. Just think of it as mapping cable one (24²) and then cable two (23²). Then divide by two because we don't care about how cables one and two are arranged...

Then three cables is (24²*23²*22²)/(2*3), etc. So for n cables, the formula is (24! * 24!) / (n! * (24-n)! * (24-n)!). Eventually, this works out to approximately 9.77 * 10²⁶ variations.

And don't forget the most important case; the one where no cables connect the two hubs.

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Djinn:
I'm so sick of society putting people with degrees on a pedestal. "Oh, Jimmy Bigbucks went to Yale. Let's hire him!" when a perfectly good programmer, who ventured out on thier own to learn their trade are often not even considered for positions of which they are equally or possibly more qualified for.

You are fighting a straw man. The poster who mentioned his coworker's irrational distaste for people with higher degrees was NOT saying "Bow before my degree", but rather was saying "Behold, some people with advanced degrees actually know stuff!"

I agree with you that it's unfortunate that those without a degree (but with experience) have a harder time finding employment. (Or, I assume they do. I don't know what the statistics are :))

Most companies I've worked for (all 2 of them ;)) have had policies regarding experience vs degrees. For example, to go from an Engineer X to an Engineer X+1, one might need either a higher degree, or a certain amount more experience (often 4-5 years). This seems pretty reasonable.

I've known several people who went through college and did NOT learn to program well at all. On the other hand, my very best friend is a skill programmer, but lacks certain facets of knowledge that he might have had he gone to college. For example, he has a fear of recursion which seems irrational to me, because I've had some Scheme and Lisp background. Sure, I dont use it all the time, but it's an extra tool in the toolbox, so to speak. Don't discount the lessons you may learn in college just because you "already know 80-90% of it".

I think the best combination is schooling + experience. As someone said earlier, you may find a time when your upward mobility is stifled by your lack of a degree.

Also... consider this. If you skip college and start working, in four years you will have earned a healthy chunk of change. A college graduate usually starts out with $10-$20,000 in debt.

Anaerin · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

You know, there's something important to this that everyone's missed with all this talk of "24 ports"...

Most (if not all) 24-port hubs ALSO have an "Uplink" port, designed for (That's right) linking hubs together.

So it's not 24² ways, it's 25² ways. So there. :D

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
umm... wtf.
wtf is this the fact this is on our wtf site.
....
lets get some Code up in here dammit.

Yeah, I already have plenty of stories about the nephew of my boss "installing wireless capability" by sticking a $15 belkin wireless router between the DSL modem and the exposed switch our static-IP'd servers are on. There's no shortage of idiots in areas that take no intelligence to get into, e.g. plugging in network equipment. The fun of The Daily WTF is seeing breathtaking examples of idiocy written in a medium that normally keeps dunces out by its innate level of difficulty.

What's next? Stories of "OMFG teh janitor cleaned my keyboard with acetone and rubbed off all the letters"?

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

degree or not:

My assessment on this is very short and easily understood, regretfully not by the ones that matter though.

A degree is good for getting your foot in the door during the first few years in the field.
After about 5 years, that guy with a degree has either learned all the bad mistakes of the programmers around them or firmed up thier skills.
The same goes for the self taught guy. If he is in this field actually working for 5 years he has ether picked up the bad habits or firmed up his skills.

So in the first five years a degree is important, after that, I don't give a rats ass if you went to Yale or MIT or Little Salie Mae's school for graduate churning, your degree means nothing to me. I want to know what you have done in the past 5 years. What have you learned, and have you kept up with current trends. It doesn't take a degree to do that kind of self learning.

Keep in mind this is MY assessment of a degree, based off of all the programmers that validate thier bad design with "I have 10/20/30 years experiance as a programmer." Yeah well you haven't learned shit since the 80's and have no idea what OOP or OOD is or the difference between them.

Richard Nixon · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
Djinn:
I'm so sick of society putting people with degrees on a pedestal. "Oh, Jimmy Bigbucks went to Yale. Let's hire him!" when a perfectly good programmer, who ventured out on thier own to learn their trade are often not even considered for positions of which they are equally or possibly more qualified for.

You are fighting a straw man. The poster who mentioned his coworker's irrational distaste for people with higher degrees was NOT saying "Bow before my degree", but rather was saying "Behold, some people with advanced degrees actually know stuff!"

I agree with you that it's unfortunate that those without a degree (but with experience) have a harder time finding employment. (Or, I assume they do. I don't know what the statistics are :))

Most companies I've worked for (all 2 of them ;)) have had policies regarding experience vs degrees. For example, to go from an Engineer X to an Engineer X+1, one might need either a higher degree, or a certain amount more experience (often 4-5 years). This seems pretty reasonable.

I've known several people who went through college and did NOT learn to program well at all. On the other hand, my very best friend is a skill programmer, but lacks certain facets of knowledge that he might have had he gone to college. For example, he has a fear of recursion which seems irrational to me, because I've had some Scheme and Lisp background. Sure, I dont use it all the time, but it's an extra tool in the toolbox, so to speak. Don't discount the lessons you may learn in college just because you "already know 80-90% of it".

I think the best combination is schooling + experience. As someone said earlier, you may find a time when your upward mobility is stifled by your lack of a degree.

Also... consider this. If you skip college and start working, in four years you will have earned a healthy chunk of change. A college graduate usually starts out with $10-$20,000 in debt.

Over one's lifetime, the difference in income a college graduate vs. a non-college graduate will earn makes that 10-20k insignificant. It's short-sighted to evaluate it that way.

sincerely,
Richard Nixon

Djinn · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
You are fighting a straw man.

Sorry, I've been following current events too closely. I guess it rubbed off.

Anonymous:

The poster who mentioned his coworker's irrational distaste for people with higher degrees was NOT saying "Bow before my degree", but rather was saying "Behold, some people with advanced degrees actually know stuff!"
I agree with you that it's unfortunate that those without a degree (but with experience) have a harder time finding employment. (Or, I assume they do. I don't know what the statistics are :))

Two things. The first being that, as pointed out, some OO languages do allow a certain notion of 'upcasting'. Secondly, his signing off 'So anyway.', though electronic media may distort, seems to imply a sense of 'so there' or 'we all knew how that would turn out', a common notion within the elite degree holding circle.

Anonymous:

Most companies I've worked for (all 2 of them ;)) have had policies regarding experience vs degrees. For example, to go from an Engineer X to an Engineer X+1, one might need either a higher degree, or a certain amount more experience (often 4-5 years). This seems pretty reasonable.

That seems reasonable to you? Education is directly related to experience? I think anyone who has read a technical book can vouch for the fact that the book is nearly worthless unless you put it into practice. I'm sure some schools will require a good deal of practice and testing, but is the 4 years on-and-off testing the same as 4 years work experience?

I've known several people who went through college and did NOT learn to program well at all. On the other hand, my very best friend is a skill programmer, but lacks certain facets of knowledge that he might have had he gone to college. For example, he has a fear of recursion which seems irrational to me, because I've had some Scheme and Lisp background. Sure, I dont use it all the time, but it's an extra tool in the toolbox, so to speak. Don't discount the lessons you may learn in college just because you "already know 80-90% of it". I think the best combination is schooling + experience. As someone said earlier, you may find a time when your upward mobility is stifled by your lack of a degree. Also... consider this. If you skip college and start working, in four years you will have earned a healthy chunk of change. A college graduate usually starts out with $10-$20,000 in debt.

I agree that the best combination is schooling and experience, but I lament the fact that, at least in the US, colleges are not state-sponsered, and we do not all have a fair chance. Our society does not account for that imbalance.Your family's social standing is the best measure of your future success. Rarely do we see a well to do child fall into the taboo sect of poverty, and just as rarely do we see our sterotyped and prejudiced poor rise to a greater social standing.

And for the record, I never claimed to "know 80-90%" of anything. That was another poster.

Omnifarious · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

frosty:
Agreed. My company does background checks on all incoming employees.

I won't work for places that do that. I'll give them references. I'll take tests. I'll answer any question put to me that's related to the job, and some that aren't. But I will not submit to a background check.

I don't have anything unpleasant they'd find aside from a less than stellar (but certainly not abysmal) credit history. But it's a principle thing. I don't do drug tests either, though the only drugs I take are OTC cold type stuff (and no, I'm not a Robotussin addict), alchohol and caffeine.

If they can't figure out that I'm worth the price by asking me good questions, then I probably won't like working there anyway.

WTF Batman · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:

That actually reminds me of a training I had to take. It was 600km from where I live, and the tight budget didn't allow me to get a night at a hotel (or maybe someone wanted to let the spoiled techie sleep in the train, that would teach him). Result? Instead of learning something meaningful about the piece of hardware I was supposed to work with, I fought with the invading sleep. And lost the battle.
Yet I got the certificate.
I'm just ashamed to mention it in the resume.

Heh. It's amazing how companies are willing to pay for some things, but then cheap on making sure they're getting what they pay for. Similar example:

I was starting a new project, and the boss decided I needed to go to London to take a training class, because we couldn't wait for the one scheduled for New York. The department paid the $1000-ish tuition for a single-day class (yikes!) and like $1500 for the plane ticket. They just couldn't spare me from work the day before, so I ended up working all day, hopping a plane, flying overnight, and going from the airport to the class. I was so tired, I could barely keep my eyes open. I got very little out of the class, and I ended up figuring most of it out on my own anyway. Unbelievable.

WTF Batman · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

gwfc:

Sincerely,

gwfc

Gene Wirchenko For Congress ??

BiggBru · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

cconroy:

Alex Papadimoulis:


 I was working at a medium sized "body shop" before the bubble burst days. Our internetworking team had just hired on a new engineer who dazzled them with the latest buzz-words and claimed he was a Cisco Certified Engineer.





Perhaps he meant "SYSCO Certified Engineer". You know, certified in delivery of napkins and plastic utensils and such.

Or perhaps "Sisqo Certified Engineer". Yes, Sisqo of "The Thong Song" fame.

Needless to say, I think they both shared the same level of talent.

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Ever hear of getting denied loans? I know I did!

Actually, no. There are certain loans (Stafford comes to mind, of which I am a proud holder) that are federally guaranteed, and you cannot be denied the loan on account of your income. Also, if you WERE turned down for an income-based loan, chances are you can afford to pay for school yourself (although I admit you may have to re-prioritize your finances, and may not be able to afford Harvard)

John Smallberries · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:

What's next? Stories of "OMFG teh janitor cleaned my keyboard with acetone and rubbed off all the letters"?

Not a problem for me.

BiggBru · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Alex Papadimoulis:
cconroy:

Alex Papadimoulis:


 I was working at a medium sized "body shop" before the bubble burst days. Our internetworking team had just hired on a new engineer who dazzled them with the latest buzz-words and claimed he was a Cisco Certified Engineer.





Perhaps he meant "SYSCO Certified Engineer". You know, certified in delivery of napkins and plastic utensils and such.



I was thinking a "Sisqó Certified Engineer". Silver hair and singing about dragons and thongs is not an easy task.

Ooops, sorry Alex, did not see your quote above before duplicating the Sisqo joke.

John Smallberries · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Djinn:

Djinn's an idiot.

I guess we're done here.

mthamil · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:

Ever hear of getting denied loans? I know I did!

Actually, no. There are certain loans (Stafford comes to mind, of which I am a proud holder) that are federally guaranteed, and you cannot be denied the loan on account of your income. Also, if you WERE turned down for an income-based loan, chances are you can afford to pay for school yourself (although I admit you may have to re-prioritize your finances, and may not be able to afford Harvard)

Either that or he had already screwed up his record somehow. It just sounds like he has a chip on his shoulder. I would even say that most of the people I know who have a PhD (professors that I have had) were not rich and had to put themselves through school somehow. Yes, a lot of people with advanced degrees just slid by and are really idiots, but I don't think I'd want to live in a country that didn't value education as a qualification.

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

I'm a consultant/contractor at a large Federal Government office, and the Fed customer is a guy that has nearly every certification known to man: Cisco, Novell, MS, you name it. Me? I'm a jack of all trades, master of none. Certifications? That's for weenies.

So one day we're standing up a new Windows server, and he configures the IP address and the host name. Next, he tries to ping the box using the host name, and it's hitting a completely different box. I can tell from the ping output that the DNS entry is pointing to the wrong IP address. His solution? change the IP address on the box we're building to be the IP of the other server. So when the new server starts complaining about a duplicate IP on the network, this guy starts scratching his head, and figures we'll need to reinstall Windows. Rinse, repeat. You get the picture.

THREE DAYS LATER... some quick handwaving and a BS excuse, and the server is running just fine. He never did tell me what he did to get it working, but then the DNS entry suddenly reported the correct IP address. Hmm... I wonder...

mjonhanson · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

cconroy:

Alex Papadimoulis:


 I was working at a medium sized "body shop" before the bubble burst days. Our internetworking team had just hired on a new engineer who dazzled them with the latest buzz-words and claimed he was a Cisco Certified Engineer.




Perhaps he meant "SYSCO Certified Engineer". You know, certified in delivery of napkins and plastic utensils and such.

Hey, that's "Sysco Certified Internapkin Engineer" to you pal!

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Djinn:

Who said anything about having nothing to show? I like how you mention a 'lesser' school.

Dude? Seriously? There are tiers of schools. There is no insult in this. MIT and Santa Clara Community College are not in the same class.

Why would you even bring this up? Do you think a guy arguing the backwardness of society is going to agree that a person in a position of power should put his position of power before what's fair and just?

I love arguments like this: " I am so pure and righteous and you just don't get it. You are a comformist and you will never understand the struggles I go through on a daily basis living out my indivialistic lifestyle." Typical angst rock/teenage/rebellious/problem with authority type of mentality.

I am pragmatist. I may not like or agree with society (or at the very least, certain aspects of society), but I still have to live in it. I can speak out and work to change it, but I still need to pay bills, put food on the table and make sure my kids have cloths. I may not want to pay taxes or agree with the way we are taxed, but I still have to pay them!

And don't bother setting up another straw man like you did below (slavery) because everyone can plainly see that I am not arguing for comformism, just realism.

So by acknowleding the fact that society prejudices people, I should mold myself to fit that? I'm glad we abolished slavery. You might tell the blacks to become white. Hell, you might say that today.

Pete evades strawman. +2 points.

A "company man"? Who are you, Pete? Yeah, and what "certain things" are those? To classify yourself?

As a matter of fact, this rant is not much about my self. Despite having very little money to start out with, I did have the opportunity to go to school. I went long enough to get an Associates from a 'lesser' school, though it hasn't much hampered my success. In fact, I'm doing financially better than many of my friends who hold a BS (which is just that) or MS. I pride myself on having gotten so far with so little "formal" education, as it underscores the true distinction of one. I do see people often get turned down due to thier lack of education though, and it's clear to see from thier experience they may be just as suited.

Pride is the downfall of many.

I can understand the defense of a degree though. I will not argue that someone with thier degree has not worked for it, because that is obviously not the case. But the idea of the degree is much inflated, compounded by the fact that you *DID* work for it, and possibly paid for it. With so much time, money, and energy invested in it, you almost have no choice BUT to defend it. But how can you tell us that because society requires it, and because those in power love thier power, I need to "get off my butt and [get] it"?

Would you tell your kids not to goto school? At what point does school become irrelevent? 3rd grade? 1st?

The point is, one can learn everything in the world in school or on their own. The value of a degree is not in what you learn (though that is a great side benefit), but it is in the freedoms and advancements a degree bestows. It is a societal notion that has little value outside of the society, but is vitally important inside it. Not only is it irresponsible and reckless to disagree with this, it is just plain stupid.

I will never say someone with a degree is smarter, but I will always say that someone with a degree probably has a better shot at financial success than someone without it. That is just common sense.

mjonhanson · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Alex Papadimoulis:
cconroy:

Alex Papadimoulis:


 I was working at a medium sized "body shop" before the bubble burst days. Our internetworking team had just hired on a new engineer who dazzled them with the latest buzz-words and claimed he was a Cisco Certified Engineer.





Perhaps he meant "SYSCO Certified Engineer". You know, certified in delivery of napkins and plastic utensils and such.



I was thinking a "Sisqó Certified Engineer". Silver hair and singing about dragons and thongs is not an easy task.

Or maybe he was a "Karen Sisco Certified Fanpage Engineer"? He was misrepresenting his skills at all.

Djinn · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

mthamil:
Anonymous:

Ever hear of getting denied loans? I know I did!

Actually, no. There are certain loans (Stafford comes to mind, of which I am a proud holder) that are federally guaranteed, and you cannot be denied the loan on account of your income. Also, if you WERE turned down for an income-based loan, chances are you can afford to pay for school yourself (although I admit you may have to re-prioritize your finances, and may not be able to afford Harvard)

Either that or he had already screwed up his record somehow. It just sounds like he has a chip on his shoulder. I would even say that most of the people I know who have a PhD (professors that I have had) were not rich and had to put themselves through school somehow. Yes, a lot of people with advanced degrees just slid by and are really idiots, but I don't think I'd want to live in a country that didn't value education as a qualification.

Despite your snide remark about my credit, I looked up what ChiefCrazyTalk said, and that's often not even checked in those types of loans.

If your utopian country that values education so much really valued education so much, wouldn't they make it easier for people to get into without putting them into debt? Would the same country decrease education spending, and increase military spending?

Cuba has free doctorate level schooling. Not only for Cubans but for many people from around the world. That is a country that values education.

BiggBru · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Pistol Pete:
Djinn:

Who said anything about having nothing to show? I like how you mention a 'lesser' school.

Dude? Seriously? There are tiers of schools. There is no insult in this. MIT and Santa Clara Community College are not in the same class.

Why would you even bring this up? Do you think a guy arguing the backwardness of society is going to agree that a person in a position of power should put his position of power before what's fair and just?

I love arguments like this: " I am so pure and righteous and you just don't get it. You are a comformist and you will never understand the struggles I go through on a daily basis living out my indivialistic lifestyle." Typical angst rock/teenage/rebellious/problem with authority type of mentality.

I am pragmatist. I may not like or agree with society (or at the very least, certain aspects of society), but I still have to live in it. I can speak out and work to change it, but I still need to pay bills, put food on the table and make sure my kids have cloths. I may not want to pay taxes or agree with the way we are taxed, but I still have to pay them!

And don't bother setting up another straw man like you did below (slavery) because everyone can plainly see that I am not arguing for comformism, just realism.

So by acknowleding the fact that society prejudices people, I should mold myself to fit that? I'm glad we abolished slavery. You might tell the blacks to become white. Hell, you might say that today.

Pete evades strawman. +2 points.

A "company man"? Who are you, Pete? Yeah, and what "certain things" are those? To classify yourself?

As a matter of fact, this rant is not much about my self. Despite having very little money to start out with, I did have the opportunity to go to school. I went long enough to get an Associates from a 'lesser' school, though it hasn't much hampered my success. In fact, I'm doing financially better than many of my friends who hold a BS (which is just that) or MS. I pride myself on having gotten so far with so little "formal" education, as it underscores the true distinction of one. I do see people often get turned down due to thier lack of education though, and it's clear to see from thier experience they may be just as suited.

Pride is the downfall of many.

I can understand the defense of a degree though. I will not argue that someone with thier degree has not worked for it, because that is obviously not the case. But the idea of the degree is much inflated, compounded by the fact that you *DID* work for it, and possibly paid for it. With so much time, money, and energy invested in it, you almost have no choice BUT to defend it. But how can you tell us that because society requires it, and because those in power love thier power, I need to "get off my butt and [get] it"?

Would you tell your kids not to goto school? At what point does school become irrelevent? 3rd grade? 1st?

The point is, one can learn everything in the world in school or on their own. The value of a degree is not in what you learn (though that is a great side benefit), but it is in the freedoms and advancements a degree bestows. It is a societal notion that has little value outside of the society, but is vitally important inside it. Not only is it irresponsible and reckless to disagree with this, it is just plain stupid.

I will never say someone with a degree is smarter, but I will always say that someone with a degree probably has a better shot at financial success than someone without it. That is just common sense.

I completely agree with Pete. And I don't buy the "not enough time/money" excuse either. I'm going to school full time, while working full time (non-IT job). It's a matter of choosing priorities: what is more important to you? A better paying job down the road, or more free time/extra money now? I know I'm making the right decision, no matter how many "college is overrated" arguments I hear.

bugmenot · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
First of all, if you're hooking up two hubs, you -don't- want to hook up all ports in one to all ports in another... WTF good would that do? You'd have NO empty ports.

If you check my original post, I did say fully.

I am shocker! Shocked! that nobody got it...

Here, lemme try again:

<joke>
 If you want them THOROUGHLY connected it would be a lot
 <subjoke>
 (I ain't no numerical analysis freak and nobody has bribed me enough to throw my support behind any of the proposals, though I am sure that there is a bang (!) in there somewhere, as all good things include a bang)
 </subjoke>
</joke>

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Considering a plug could also not be plugged into anything,

You could have from 0 - 24 wires:

Having 0 there is exactly 1 possiblilty

Having 1 there are 24 X 24 possibilities

Having 2 there are 24 X 24 for wire 1, and 23 X 23 for wire 2

Having 3 there are (24 * 24) * (23 * 23) * (22 * 22)

Etc....

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Someone said:
"Honestly, I doubt all of this. First of all, the level of math involved with most CS programs precludes such a statement."

Oh, you mean the fact that I read Knuth's TAOCP means that I'm too dumb to handle the math? Dude, the math in CS is easy.

He continued...
"Secondly, one wouldn't bother to study the subjects that are part of a CS program because most of it is not used in a day to day job"

Oh really? So that means that I shouldn't read anything, either. Because damned if the Decameron is used day to day. And I should study any more languages, because all I use is English, I never use French, Spanish or Japanese at work. Pity I can't use that time to brush up on field/group theory because I can't handle the math.

I've never been to college. Hell, I almost didn't make it out of highscool. But I know more about CS then all of the recent ('04) graduates that I work with. Plus I know where the practical and theory mix and don't mix. 24, no degree, and a "senior engineer" -- with compensating salary and respect.

Please, keep in mind that there are some people out there with the mental motivation to learn stuff without college, and generally we can fend for ourselves. We just can't work at Google.

OneFactor · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

John Smallberries:
JohnO:

Anonymous:
I don't know about you, but when I connect two hubs together I prefer to have open ports so I can, you know, plug computers into it. So a simple one port on A to one port on B is sufficient. In that case it's 24*24 since there's 24 ports on A, choose 1, and 24 ports on B, choose 1.

And, no, if you fully connected them then you'd have more than 24! since you can pick the port on A as well. It would be 24!^2 since it's 24! ways to plug in 24 wires into B and then 24! ways to plug the other ends into A.

If you wanted to count the ways to parallel plug in cables (port 1 on A to port 1 on B) then that's 24! ways since you are only picking one port with 24 wires.

You have the common sense part down but your combinatorial mathematics are lacking. It is indeed 24 factorial, assuming you would not go to and from a port on the same hub and you aren't distinguishing one cable from another. Port 1 on A can go to 24 ports on B. Port 2 on A can then go to 23 ports on B...Port 24 on A can go to 1 port on B. That is 24!.

It's 24! if you use all 24 cables. How many more combinations are there when using only 23, 22, 21...

When using only 1 cable it's 24², right? When using 2 cables it's...ow, my brain.

If you have n-ports on each hub and you use k-cables, I think you get (nPk)^2 / k!
where nPk is "n perm k" = n!/(n-k)!, the number of ways of ordering k objects from a set of n.

On the boundary cases:
n=k=24 gives 24!
n=24, k = 1 gives 24 ^ 2

Interesting combinatorial problem.

Djinn · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Okay, this discussion is quickly degrading, so I'm just going to touch on a few key topics, and then the rest of you can pummel me. I promise to read all insults and hate posts later.

Anonymous:

I love arguments like this: " I am so pure and righteous and you just don't get it. You are a comformist and you will never understand the struggles I go through on a daily basis living out my indivialistic lifestyle." Typical angst rock/teenage/rebellious/problem with authority type of mentality.

I am pragmatist. I may not like or agree with society (or at the very least, certain aspects of society), but I still have to live in it. I can speak out and work to change it, but I still need to pay bills, put food on the table and make sure my kids have cloths. I may not want to pay taxes or agree with the way we are taxed, but I still have to pay them!

And don't bother setting up another straw man like you did below (slavery) because everyone can plainly see that I am not arguing for comformism, just realism.

Don't make this about me. I never called you a conformist or implied it. If anything I implied you were conditioned by society, blind to its predjudice. You've done nothing here but tried to paint me with an 'angst' brush. Furthermore, you're indirectly accusing me of various crimes, including tax evasion.

I have never argued that society was a bad thing. Ours is just seriously marred. Of course we all have to live within/around its current bounds, and I'm no different. I pay bills, and taxes (and I ENJOY paying taxes as long as it's for peaceful purposes), and am the sole supporter of my family.

But I never claimed to be 'pure and righteous'. In fact, that was my original claim of most degree holders. That they are somehow more worthy of societys benefits.

See how quickly you classify? People and schools - there's no insult in it. I'm obviously not as good as the Jones'.

Pete evades strawman. +2 points.

Well done. You learned a new word, and increased your percieved measure of success all in the same line.

Pride is the downfall of many.

Pete, what the fuck is that supposed to mean? Really, that's the stupidest thing that's ever been posted as a reply here.

Would you tell your kids not to goto school? At what point does school become irrelevent? 3rd grade? 1st?

I encourage everybodys children to stay in school at least as long as its free. Despite the increase in violence, and despite the degradation of the curriculum. After that, I will tell my kids if they feel that, as I did (and of course, after a fair trial), school is not the best route for them, then find what suitable for you and pursue it. Don't bother with the 'so they're just going to be fuckups' argument because that simply isn't true. I know plenty of successful people, myself included, without a degree.

The point is, one can learn everything in the world in school or on their own. The value of a degree is not in what you learn (though that is a great side benefit), but it is in the freedoms and advancements a degree bestows. It is a societal notion that has little value outside of the society, but is vitally important inside it. Not only is it irresponsible and reckless to disagree with this, it is just plain stupid.

I will never say someone with a degree is smarter, but I will always say that someone with a degree probably has a better shot at financial success than someone without it. That is just common sense.

I don't disagree with most of this. A degree is a "societal notion that has little value outside of the society", and "someone with a degree probably has a better shot at financial success than someone without it". I'm just saying that with the current requirements for education, it is unfair to be judged soley on that, which is often the case.

I'm out for now. Feel free to rip it up. No hard feelings.

wakeskate · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

It's almost as bad as some of the signatures I see... surely some things belong on your resume, but not in your signature.

Sincerely,
Fi(r)stName LastName, MCSD, MCSE, BSc, BEng, etc.

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
John Smallberries:
sammybaby:

Detailed instructions on connecting two hubs together?

Well, with 24 ports, that's 24! (or is it 24²⁴?) possible combinations...
Which one is best?

24² (

24! (24 factorial)

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

While this specific example is not possible, it is sometimes necessary to cast Objects to other types. For example, C# Hashtables contain Objects, and only Objects. You need to cast the Object to something useful before you can use it. Of course, it helps if that's the same type you shoved in there in the first place...

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

But you can always do:

Object a = new Object(); String b = a.toString();

;)

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
If you don't mind, I'm going to elaborate on your answer as many people seem to be confused by this... First of all, if you're hooking up two hubs, you -don't- want to hook up all ports in one to all ports in another... WTF good would that do? You'd have NO empty ports. You hook up ONE port from one hub to ONE port from another hub. Consider Hub A: Choose ONE of 24 possible ports.That is a factor of 24. Consider Hub B: Connect to ONE of 24 possible ports. That is a factor of 24. 24*24 = 24^2. Now, just for arguments sake, if you want to hook up EVERY port from Hub A into a port in Hub B (a real WTF): Consider Hub A: Choose ONE of 24 possible ports. Factor of 24, call it connection i. Next choose ONE of 23 possible ports, factor of 23, call it connection ii... 24*23*22*...*1 = 24!. Consider Hub B: Take connection i, choose one of 24 possible ports. Take connection ii, choose one of 23 possible ports... 24*23*22*22*...*1 = 24! Therefore 24!*24! = (24!)^2. Goddamn I hate combinatorics. -- W

You're considering the order you're plugging them in into your problem, aren't you? I don't think this is appropriate, since you only (presumably) want to look at the end state when everything's plugged in. Seems you could simplify by consider Hub A: All cables plugged in. Then, port A1 to B1, port A1 to B2, etc. etc. to get 24!

Of course, this does lead to the situation of all ports being hooked to each other (ignoring the upload port). So I'd agree this is a somewhat silly proposal.

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

But you can always do:

Object a = new Object(); String b = a.toString();

Surely, you mean:

String b = "" + ((String)a).toString().toString();

John Smallberries · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Anonymous:
While this specific example is not possible, it is sometimes necessary to cast Objects to other types. For example, C# Hashtables contain Objects, and only Objects. You need to cast the Object to something useful before you can use it. Of course, it helps if that's the same type you shoved in there in the first place...

The instance is cast to object before being added to the hashtable. It can then be recast to its original type. instances declared as object can't be cast to specific types:

Hashtable h = new Hashtable();
string s = "foo";
object o = new object();
h.Add("string", s);
h.Add("object", o);

Console.WriteLine(h["string"].GetType().ToString());
Console.WriteLine(h["object"].GetType().ToString());

/* output
System.String
System.Object
*/

string s2 = (String)h["string"]; // cool
string s3 = (String)h["object"]; // ka boom!

Snagglepuss · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

I think people often misunderstand the position of the employer when it comes to degrees.

Most employers know that a degree does not necessarily equal skill, just as they know that a lack of qualifications does not necessarily equal ineptitude. I think everyone here will agree (given what this site is all about) that there are is a high percentage of asshats in this industry, both with and without qualifications.

Ideally, every manager or HR goon wants to be able to ignore all this bullshit like degrees and even experience and ask the potential employee just one question; are you any good? That's what the interview progress is all about. And so you train your HR guys with simple psych questions and you get an expert to sit in on the interview and you try your very best to judge each individual on their personal merits but the fact remains that no matter what you do, asshats will end up employed in your company.

You might then say that performance evaluation should be used to weed out the asshats, but anyone who's taken a software engineering or management course will tell you that performance is extremely difficult to evaluate. There's a whole science to performance evaluation, and what you need is someone extremely skilled in the practise in order to accurately identify asshats within your company. See the previous paragraph with regards to employing such an expert. So, we can see that performance evaluations aren't exactly going to be 100% effective.

And so you face facts - your company employs asshats. Ideally it shouldn't, realistically it does. And so this is where you start to play the statistics game, particularly if you're a large company employing a lot of people. You stop looking at how to prevent asshat employment, and start looking at any steps you might be able to take in order to reduce asshat employment. Any decrease in the percentage of asshats in your company is an improvement.

So, even knowing that we will be throwing away some good applicants as well as some bad applicants, we (the big company) screen people based on qualifications, because at the end of the day, there is a higher percentage of asshats amongst unqualified applicants than there are amongst qualified applicants. It may not be that most unqualified applicants are asshats, it may not even be many of them, but it's certainly a higher percentage.

You'll see small companies employ the same approach, since a good manager realises he probably doesn't have a very good idea of what makes a good software guy. He too can improve his chances of getting a good employee by looking at qualifications. No hard feelings, it's just true. You'll notice that small companies (and university departments) run by people with a software dev background will likely hold less stake in previous qualifications and experience, since they're more able to assess on a case by case basis.

Is it fair? Not completely. But a "fairer" approach just ends up with more asshats getting employed, which no-one here really wants. It's not about perfect solutions, it's about what is the best solution at the given time based on your understanding of the situation. So, unless you have some better ideas, unqualified people are going to have a harder time getting employed.

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

The biggest WTF is the variations on the answers for how many combinations are possible...

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

On the subject of upcasting in C++...

If the objects are completely unrelated, you can use reinterpret_cast<>. This is used extensively when passing pointers to things in the Windows API. For example, many callback functions require a DWORD parameter, which can be cast to a pointer to an object or function or anything else that can be represented in 4 bytes, depending on what you want to do in the callback iteself. Needless to say, this is not the safest cast in the world...

On the other hand, dynamic_cast<> will only cast up/down the class hierarchy, as a runtime type check is made, so you can convert a CObject to a CWnd, but not a DWORD to a char*.

const_cast<> is an abomination and if you need it, then you probably need to rethink your design instead.

bugmenot · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

JohnO:
Anonymous:
I don't know about you, but when I connect two hubs together I prefer to have open ports so I can, you know, plug computers into it. So a simple one port on A to one port on B is sufficient. In that case it's 24*24 since there's 24 ports on A, choose 1, and 24 ports on B, choose 1.

And, no, if you fully connected them then you'd have more than 24! since you can pick the port on A as well. It would be 24!^2 since it's 24! ways to plug in 24 wires into B and then 24! ways to plug the other ends into A.

If you wanted to count the ways to parallel plug in cables (port 1 on A to port 1 on B) then that's 24! ways since you are only picking one port with 24 wires.

You have the common sense part down but your combinatorial mathematics are lacking. It is indeed 24 factorial, assuming you would not go to and from a port on the same hub and you aren't distinguishing one cable from another. Port 1 on A can go to 24 ports on B. Port 2 on A can then go to 23 ports on B...Port 24 on A can go to 1 port on B. That is 24!.

Well, you could use 24 different cables (ie 6 colors x 4 sizes). Then you could use Cable1 from A1..A24 to B1..B24, Cable2 from A1..A24 (minus one already used) to B1..B24 (minus used) and so on. That's 24! combinations for A and 24! independent combinations for B. All-in-all (24!)^2 combinations.

You could go even further: Who said that you have to use every port? And who said that you couldn't connect two ports on the same hub? <exercise to="reader"/>

rbriem · 2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Djinn:

If your utopian country that values education so much really valued education so much, wouldn't they make it easier for people to get into without putting them into debt? Would the same country decrease education spending, and increase military spending?

Cuba has free doctorate level schooling. Not only for Cubans but for many people from around the world. That is a country that values education.

My country isn't utopian. It's predominantly capitalist. And we value education enough not to make it free beyond 12th grade.

I've known many people who went through college on someone else's dime, many who have had to pay their own way, and many without degrees who are working in careers that traditionally require degrees. By far, in my experience, the people who had learned the least were in that first group; this is part of our capitalist culture - the value we give to something is bound up in what we pay for it (or invest in it).

We value education. But more than that, we value people who value themselves enough to invest in an education, and we do a pretty good job of making higher education universally available within this framework.

Being in that degree-less group myself, I've lost out on jobs and promotions to people with art history degrees - but I understand why, and that's the rules of the game I choose to be in (and I know that every opportunity lost is an opportunity to do something else).

And let me tell you it's a total bitch trying to explain this to teenagers.

2006-02-23 Reply Admin

Your typing style should be featured as one of the WTFs on the site.

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