• Someone (unregistered)

    USPS is actually quite good. Try UPS:

    [image]
  • Dave (unregistered)

    The package routing one isn't that bad.
    If you work in some big office buildings, like the Empire State Building in New York and send a package via the FedEx in the building to another office in the same building, the package still gets picked up and sent to a central hub to get sorted.

  • Dave C. (unregistered) in reply to ContraCorners
    ContraCorners:
    Shouldn't that be "right wing-governors'"?
    Have I started a comments meme? I'm so proud.
  • (cs) in reply to @Deprecated
    @Deprecated:
    TRWTF is a cordless mouse that costs $400.

    Maybe it does other functions too, like front-end work.

    edit: oops, I see that is 'R', not '$'.

    Pentagon battlefield-hardened mouse, maybe?

  • (cs)

    Number one is just what happens when you use sorting hubs.

    It's why my mail orders from Forbidden Planet in the UK have a note attached in the shipping field asking if I can pick up from their mail order warehouse, because it's two miles from my house. FP are sane and actually let me do this. Otherwise Royal Mail pick the package up from them, take it to the sorting centre 10 miles away, then bring it back the next day.

  • Amy (unregistered)

    The Proletariat is an Unsupported global dynamic element.

  • weronika (unregistered)

    adf.ly/183291/weronika

  • (cs) in reply to Unsupported global dynamic element
    Unsupported global dynamic element:
    Silfax:
    Cgtegjjhferuhggffdgjk is what you get when you have your language set to rot13'd Welsh.
    rot13? That looks like straight up Welsh.
    Welsh: the only language that looks the same both before and after rot13 encoding.
  • (cs) in reply to Captain Oblivious
    Captain Oblivious:
    Leftards lol:
    The real WTF is thinking that the skilled workers the middle class should be composed of need unions (or that the American Dream is for people so lazy they need others to negotiate for them)

    Why shouldn't labor get organized? Labor negotiates with organizations.

    It's sing a hub-and-spoke design. It's far more efficient for both workers and employers for the former to organise a union through which to negotiate with the latter than it is to have them all carrying out individual negotiations.

    Addendum (2011-06-05 08:30): s/sing/using/

  • (cs)

    Even if they exist, English isn't one of them. Offhand, I can't think of any languages where one reads from the bottom of the page towards the top. Doing it in reverse means jumping down to the end of the log and then going back to the beginning. Easier, in fact. It's just as easy to find the end of the log as it is to find the beginning. It can't be to make it easier to spot the most recent event. Why is that? Their tracking logs are written in reverse chronological order. Something else that USPS and UPS have in common.

  • (cs) in reply to Watson
    Watson:
    Captain Oblivious:
    Leftards lol:
    The real WTF is thinking that the skilled workers the middle class should be composed of need unions (or that the American Dream is for people so lazy they need others to negotiate for them)

    Why shouldn't labor get organized? Labor negotiates with organizations.

    It's using a hub-and-spoke design.

    Holy crap, he's managed to drag the political side-thread right back on-topic! +1 internets to that poster!
  • (cs) in reply to Dave
    Dave:
    At least the left finally admits...

    The US doesn't have a visible left wing. Just "a right wing" & "a much more right wing".

  • TheRealPinkyAndTheBrainFan187 (unregistered) in reply to Someone
    Someone:
    USPS is actually quite good. Try UPS: <-large image removed ->
    I don't get the WTF? Are you implying that the package went: HK->Switzerland->HK->Dubai->Switzerland->Germany->France->Switzerland?

    Because I think "Package data processed by brokerage (blah blah)" just means that some data processing function occurred at the Swiss branch that would receive it...

  • Helmut Muelner (unregistered)

    I subscribe to American magazines and I live in Austria. At least once a year the magazines are late by two months and have an undelivered message from Australia on their cover.

  • Eureka (unregistered)

    Clearly Chris has never used a Clueless Mouse, and doesn't understand the value in it.

  • Hugh (unregistered) in reply to @Deprecated
    @Deprecated:
    TRWTF is a cordless mouse that costs $400.

    Maybe it does other functions too, like front-end work.

    edit: oops, I see that is 'R', not '$'.

    Perhaps it was really submitted by Nagesh

  • Jim (unregistered) in reply to JR
    JR:
    Blecki:
    The USPS one isn't a wtf. The package got sorted wrong. Big fucking deal.
    Most of these aren't.

    iPhone: Type nonsense, and you're going to get a nonsense suggestion. E-Mail: Obviously a problem caused by using Thunderbird More Choices: They got more choices. Duh. Mouse: Someone said before, it's not USD. IT: Maybe in the trusted domain, but banned for another restriction. Wells Fargo: Multiple email addresses Bill: Lost in the mail. Duh.

    Tend to agree.

    The iPhone is trying to complete a non-sensical word beginning. It seems reasonable to suggest a nonsensical word (which may be a previously entered reference number, or something).

    Unless I missed something, the "More Choices" option gave "More choice" so there is nothing overly odd there. Sure it was only 1 entry, and sure the link for more choices took the same amount of space, but there always has to be a limit somewhere. We could go "just 1 more" forever until the list is 10 pages long.

    Wells Fargo - I think the post something. It is a little odd to get an email that says your address is invalid, but perhaps as the email was received they are justified in sending it. It does say "We could not deliver a message to one of your email addresses" - unless the WTF is using the image to track whether the mails been read.

    Maybe Julia's right and we will be better off with a Carbon Tax - truenergy has already calculated your saving.

    The "Trusetd" website that is unaccessible is probably a direct result of the username being unidentified - a minor WTF at best - if anything, it shows security doesn't want anyone they can't identify touching anything (that is, assume no priviliges).

  • hello (unregistered) in reply to Someone who can't be bothered to log in from work
    Someone who can't be bothered to log in from work:
    Anon:
    What's the over/under on how many people will post something like "TRWTF is a $400 mouse" because they are a) too stupid to realize that it's not in USD and b) they are too lazy to notice that several idiots have already posted the same thing?
    Unless I'm mistaken, that's English. What other currency would it be in, other than USD?

    Rand (as someone has said), maybe Rupee probably others, Ringots, Random Currencies...

    Oh, you were having a go....pray continue...

  • uit (unregistered) in reply to imgx64
    imgx64:
    Arne:
    I'd say TRWRF is them being unable to spell "mouse". First they tried "MOUS", and when that looked wrong, they tried "MOSE".

    Judging from the "C/LESS", I'd say the label has a limit on the number of characters that can be printed on it. I don't know about the MOSE, but it's probably a code or something.

    Agree limit on characters for MOUS (the Germans would have said Maus)

    I think MOSE is a (slight) coincidents, and it's some sort of store code (perhaps "Mouse Or Similar Equipment"

  • you (unregistered) in reply to trtrwtf
    trtrwtf:
    Anon:
    Maybe it's one of those countries where the foreigners aren't too lazy to learn English?

    Silly rabbit, all foreigners are too lazy to learn English. That's why I have to shout at people when I'm in other countries like Canada. They understand you better if you shout.

    "That's the trouble with foreigners. You can't travel anywhere abroad without meeting any." (Tony Hancock)

  • Fred (unregistered) in reply to Qw22
    Qw22:
    The driving itself is probably more expensive, though only marginally: as others have pointed out, there are regularly-scheduled trucks carrying mail from, say, NW Indiana to be delivered in the SE Michigan area. Each incremental package might slightly affect the gas mileage of that truck, but it's not like they are driving with a single package on the passenger seat just for you.

    Where the savings goes is in not having to operate as many sorting and distribution centers, with the associated labor, facilities and equipment costs, utilities, etc. In closing many of these sites, as you say over the last year or two, it inevitably means that some packages end up traveling a further distance than they used to. The flip side is that the cost for shipping the overall mail stream has decreased.

    You also run fewer trucks. Putting a truck on every road doesn't make much sense economically (in fact the reduction of your carbon footprint of having fewer trucks - even if some packages clock up the Travel Miles is some {insert made up value here} tonnes).

    Surely these things go in aeroplanes, though, and clock up Frequent Flyer miles, meaning that a package might eventually travel for free, and has full access to the airline's lounge.

  • Mikey (unregistered) in reply to Paul
    Paul:
    Captain Oblivious:
    Leftards lol:
    The real WTF is thinking that the skilled workers the middle class should be composed of need unions (or that the American Dream is for people so lazy they need others to negotiate for them)

    Why shouldn't labor get organized? Labor negotiates with organizations. Unorganized labor cuts its own throat unless there are very specific circumstances in the labor market.

    TRWTF is libertarians who are for freedom (e.g., free association) until it costs them a bit of pocket change.

    Libertarians completely support voluntary unions where you are free to join if you want, or not join if you don't want. They oppose mandatory unions, because that isn't free choice.

    It is kinda fundamental to the whole idea. You are free to do what you want. You are not free to force others to do what you want.

    The problem is, I know many people who support voluntary unionism in so far as they don't pay fees, but they still complain when the unions they don't support fail to get them a good result - and they even get uipset and write them letters. (I on the other hand, get annoyed when a union which I have chosen not to join stalls negotiation on a contract that I think is reasonable and would happily sign - thank you CPSU). Voluntary unionism should mean that the unions are only for their members, but the reality is that they argue for the entire workforce (and it would probably complicate things to have it any other way).

    This means (depending on your leanings), there is a choice to have mandatory unions or no unions. The idea of voluntary unions is flawed because there is a net benefit even if people choose not to join the union. Personally, I don't join unions (because I'm too tight to fork out fees), but I don't get upset with them when they don't go into bat for me - I'm not paying their fees. They do, however, annoy the absolute shit out of me when they cause a payrise to me to stall because they take objection to something in an agreement that doesn't even relate to me (yes, I know in all likelihood, that increase is back-paid, but the point is that their potentially putting my agreement in jeopardy, even if I agree with it).

  • Zerox (unregistered) in reply to J
    J:
    frits:
    Pr0gramm3r:
    Moar Carbons:
    TRWTF is people caring about carbon footprints.
    TRWTF is people who believe global warming is man-made.
    FTFY
    Yes. The climate changes on it's own (not really, but humans don't need to interfere to make it happen). The people pushing anthropogenic global warming don't seem to understand this.

    Libertarians in the US want to maximize personal liberty. Unfortunately, unions and the left have destroyed education for too many people in this country for that to work (as they don't know how to think for themselves and only know how to do what the politicians tell them).

    I seem to recall hearing it got really, really cold some 20,000 years ago. Man invented hotter fire than he already knew, and that set Global Warming off...

    Though I tend to agree that the debate often misses the point (ie people seem to argue whetehr GW exists or not, rather than whether we're causing/exacerbating it), I also think if it makes us pollute less it can only be a good thing. We got big fat hole in the Ozone layer that makes my summer sun a touch on the dangerous side...

  • Joprdan (unregistered) in reply to Coyne
    Coyne:
    cee:
    The Wells Fargo one is not a wtf, it's actually a rather brilliant anticipation of that exact situation.

    See the line 'you must have a valid address to receive statements online...if we cannot successfully deliver your statement....we will resume sending you paper copies'

    I'm guessing this is regulatory. They have to somehow confirm that you are actually getting your emails.

    So, they send a follow up email saying 'Our automated delivery detection system says you aren't getting these. If you are getting these, you might want to figure out what the problem is so we can stay in compliance with these ridiculous laws'.

    Yeah, they could have phrased it better, but all in all, fairly forward-thinking.

    Yes, I'm sure they must verify the customer's email address. To do it using a web bug...

    It seems that organizations these days are determined: "We're going to shove these stinkin' web bugs down your lousy stinkin' throats! Accept them or else!"

    Even my employer's gift shop sends them, in internal mail. Sigh.

    So you're left with a choice: Turn them on and get spammed to death or turn them off and have Wells Fargo ding you for not having a valid email address? What kind of a choice is that? "Accept our web bugs or you can't be our customer!"

    Wells Fargo--and a lot of other organizations--need to start respecting their customers.

    Didn't we have a discussion on how to best verify email addresses a few weeks ago?

  • Alex (unregistered) in reply to Joprdan
    Joprdan:
    Coyne:
    cee:
    The Wells Fargo one is not a wtf, it's actually a rather brilliant anticipation of that exact situation.

    See the line 'you must have a valid address to receive statements online...if we cannot successfully deliver your statement....we will resume sending you paper copies'

    I'm guessing this is regulatory. They have to somehow confirm that you are actually getting your emails.

    So, they send a follow up email saying 'Our automated delivery detection system says you aren't getting these. If you are getting these, you might want to figure out what the problem is so we can stay in compliance with these ridiculous laws'.

    Yeah, they could have phrased it better, but all in all, fairly forward-thinking.

    Yes, I'm sure they must verify the customer's email address. To do it using a web bug...

    It seems that organizations these days are determined: "We're going to shove these stinkin' web bugs down your lousy stinkin' throats! Accept them or else!"

    Even my employer's gift shop sends them, in internal mail. Sigh.

    So you're left with a choice: Turn them on and get spammed to death or turn them off and have Wells Fargo ding you for not having a valid email address? What kind of a choice is that? "Accept our web bugs or you can't be our customer!"

    Wells Fargo--and a lot of other organizations--need to start respecting their customers.

    Didn't we have a discussion on how to best verify email addresses a few weeks ago?

    Yes, we finally agreed that sending the email to UPS to be sorted was the best solution.

  • Jay (unregistered) in reply to Anon
    Anon:
    This is why the idea of freedom in society - which necessarily requires constriction of behavior and choice (i.e. organization) - is such a naive concept. ...

    "Why should I be forced to pay for someone else's health care/schooling/roads/whatever (at gunpoint no less)? It's not fair! I shouldn't have to pay for anything that benefits me in ways I don't understand!"

    Thanks. I think you just summed up the liberal position quite well: People must be forced to do X whether they like it or not, because the government, in its wisdom, knows what is good for you. If you were smart enough to run your own life, you'd be a bureaucrat too. OF COURSE the liberal believes in freedom ... if only those common peasants were smart enough to do what the liberals tell them they should do. But these stupid people just don't know what's good for them, so we have to force them, at gunpoint if necessary, to do what we know is best: to drive the right kind of cars, use the right kind of light bulbs, get the right kind of health care, etc etc.

    Real freedom is not a "naive concept" that is impossible to implement. Not the libertarian idea of freedom, anyway. Real freedom says that I respect the right of others to do what they think is best for themselves or their family or their community, even if I think they are wrong. And likewise they grant me the same freedom.

    For example, in a libertarian society, if you are willing to take a job that pays only $4 an hour -- perhaps because the job is easy and pleasant and you'd rather take the low pay than a harder job that pays more, or perhaps because the alternative is no job at all, or for any number of other possible reasons -- that is purely a matter between you and the employer. But to a liberal, as he would not be willing to work for such low pay, you should not be allowed to accept such a job either. The liberal knows best how you should run your life, and if you refuse to acknowledge his greater wisdom and do as you are told, we must have laws to force you to do what we know is best.

  • Jay (unregistered) in reply to Mikey
    Mikey:
    The problem is, I know many people who support voluntary unionism in so far as they don't pay fees, but they still complain when the unions they don't support fail to get them a good result - and they even get uipset and write them letters. ... Voluntary unionism should mean that the unions are only for their members, but the reality is that they argue for the entire workforce (and it would probably complicate things to have it any other way).

    This means (depending on your leanings), there is a choice to have mandatory unions or no unions. The idea of voluntary unions is flawed because there is a net benefit even if people choose not to join the union. ...

    Yes, that's the argument that's often made: "Workers must be forced to join the union because, whether they are members or not, union negotiations benefit them, and so it's not fair for people who do pay dues to support the union while those who don't pay dues get a free ride." I think that's a reasonably fair statement of the compulsory-union position, no?

    The catch is: Who decides that the union benefits me and thus I should be forced to join and pay dues? Why, it's the union that makes this decision.

    Suppose that some other organization made this argument. There are lots of groups that claim to benefit various groups or society as a whole. Suppose that the National Vegetarian Society said that, by pressuring restaurants to serve healthier meals, they benefit everyone. Therefore everyone should be forced to pay dues to support their valuable work. Or what if a religious group said that their prayers for the good of the nation benefit everyone, and so all should be forced to pay tithes to them. Etc etc.

    If I don't want your services and don't want to pay for them, the fact that you think that I would be better off to avail myself of your services should be irrelevant in a free society. It's not up to you to decide if you offer a service that I ought to want: That should be up to me.

    If you disagree, then, well, in my opinion the Republican Party's policies would obviously benefit the country. Therefore everyone should be forced to donate to support Republican candidates. Otherwise, when a Republican candidate wins and passes good policies that benefit you, why, you're just getting a free ride. That's not fair. Right?

  • (cs) in reply to Jay
    Jay:
    Anon:
    This is why the idea of freedom in society - which necessarily requires constriction of behavior and choice (i.e. organization) - is such a naive concept. ...

    "Why should I be forced to pay for someone else's health care/schooling/roads/whatever (at gunpoint no less)? It's not fair! I shouldn't have to pay for anything that benefits me in ways I don't understand!"

    blah blah blah

    Real freedom is not a "naive concept" that is impossible to implement. Not the libertarian idea of freedom, anyway. Real freedom says that I respect the right of others to do what they think is best for themselves or their family or their community, even if I think they are wrong. And likewise they grant me the same freedom.

    You fail to miss the point that "real freedom" means granting people the right to do things that affect you in ways you might not foresee. For example, a can company voluntarily enter into an exclusive contract with another organization (for example, a supplier of, say, labor or other factors of production). If a company has entered into such an exclusive contract, then you are not free to supply their needs. Their freedom has imposed a cost on yours. Get it now?

    "They" can't grant you the same freedom, because exercising their freedom has limited yours. No amount of whining or reality denial will change that.

    On a different point, a liberal is a person who wants people to pay for the costs they impose on others. Going back to this union example, a liberal might say that a union is imposing an externality on YOU (the hypothetical libertarian), and that they should PAY YOU an amount you negotiate (so that you both face the same marginal cost). Taxation is merely the most expedient way of collecting on these costs -- so that the transaction cost of these externality-repaying negotiations is as low as possible.

  • billy (unregistered) in reply to Jay
    Jay:
    Mikey:
    The problem is, I know many people who support voluntary unionism in so far as they don't pay fees, but they still complain when the unions they don't support fail to get them a good result - and they even get uipset and write them letters. ... Voluntary unionism should mean that the unions are only for their members, but the reality is that they argue for the entire workforce (and it would probably complicate things to have it any other way).

    This means (depending on your leanings), there is a choice to have mandatory unions or no unions. The idea of voluntary unions is flawed because there is a net benefit even if people choose not to join the union. ...

    Yes, that's the argument that's often made: "Workers must be forced to join the union because, whether they are members or not, union negotiations benefit them, and so it's not fair for people who do pay dues to support the union while those who don't pay dues get a free ride." I think that's a reasonably fair statement of the compulsory-union position, no?

    The catch is: Who decides that the union benefits me and thus I should be forced to join and pay dues? Why, it's the union that makes this decision.

    Suppose that some other organization made this argument. There are lots of groups that claim to benefit various groups or society as a whole. Suppose that the National Vegetarian Society said that, by pressuring restaurants to serve healthier meals, they benefit everyone. Therefore everyone should be forced to pay dues to support their valuable work. Or what if a religious group said that their prayers for the good of the nation benefit everyone, and so all should be forced to pay tithes to them. Etc etc.

    If I don't want your services and don't want to pay for them, the fact that you think that I would be better off to avail myself of your services should be irrelevant in a free society. It's not up to you to decide if you offer a service that I ought to want: That should be up to me.

    If you disagree, then, well, in my opinion the Republican Party's policies would obviously benefit the country. Therefore everyone should be forced to donate to support Republican candidates. Otherwise, when a Republican candidate wins and passes good policies that benefit you, why, you're just getting a free ride. That's not fair. Right?

    Maybe it's just me, but it sounds like you're talking a million miles an hour (and in circles at that) - can't understand much of it, but for what it's worth:

    Unfortunately, society already does impose things "because they're better for us". There are massive campaigns (at least in my world) against smoking, and boozing, and eating unhealthy and all sorts of things. There is some (perhaps even almost reasonable) justification that these sort of behaviours end up filling hospitals with people who essentially have self-inflicted injuries. Why should every taxpayer pay to provide hospital services for the few that smoke? Or those that binge drink? Or those that take such a cocktail of drugs they become abusive toward the paramedics or doctors saving their lives? Or those who only eat at places where food is instantly available? Or those who live off the taxes anyway (ie Social Security/Dole etc), and pump that money back into supporting their habits rather than supporting their life?

    Yes, in a perfect world, we would individually be responsible for our own lot, but society simply doesn't allow that. Striking a balance between allowing people to have the freedom to do their own thing while regulating what they do sufficiently to prevent them harming other people (or even themselves) is no easy matter. In most Western countries (and possibly non-Western ones) the most effective politics seems to rely on cycles between major parties - because the parties have differing approaches, they can balance the harm done by the other (indeed, even the Vatican seems to (roughly) alternate between theologians and liturgists).
    Thus, one party might be elected and spend lots of money (possibly in useful investments), and they are eventually replaced by a party who is more financially conscious, and returns the country into surplus. Then, we plebs get fed up with this tight-arsed attitude that is stopping progress, and re-elect the other mob to spend the money that's been saved. Pretty soon, we once again panic that the nation is running out of money and we elect the misers again.

    Is this ideal? Probably not, but it is necessary. The whole notion of having multiple parties attempts to stop dictatorship and guarantees that the people have some (albeit impossible sometimes) course of action should the country go to the dogs...

    The biggest issue with any regulation is where should the lines be drawn? "People should be free to do what they want" - so what if people want to rape and pillage. Let's redesign it: "People should be free to do what they want so long as it doesn't (adversely) impact someone else" - How do we define what does and doesn't impact others (and how much regulation would stifle the freedom anyway)? etc, lots more ranting and all that...

  • (cs) in reply to quarnel
    quarnel:
    That's what you get when you select 3-5 day shipping instead of 2.
    You mean they somehow have to spend those extra days, so they send the parcels along random loops?
  • Anonymous Cow-Herd (unregistered) in reply to frits
    frits:
    That iPhone must be Welsh.
    Don't be so soft. There's far too many vowels.
  • Anonymous Cow-Herd (unregistered) in reply to Joprdan
    Joprdan:
    Didn't we have a discussion on how to best verify email addresses a few weeks ago?
    I'm amazed how many places get this wrong. root@localhost is a valid address, dammit!
  • (cs)

    re: Wells Fargo

    Realistically, exploiting a "web bug" to determine whether you're reading their messages is a rather underhanded way of accomplishing something that doesn't really need to be explicitly determined. If a company sends me a bill and I pay it, I must have received it - whether I tripped their web bug or not. Same thing with monthly account statements for my bank.

    For that matter, a large number of e-mail registration processes these days send a one-time message that requires a response - not through a web bug, but by clicking a link and entering a key value. (If it's not a critical site, they usually just put the key into the URL so that you only have to click the link.) If the activation process completes, the user is receiving messages.

  • Kell S. (unregistered)

    TRWTF is that USPS seems to have trademarked "Delivery Confirmation"?!?

  • Brentus (unregistered)

    I've had fedex send a package from Los Angeles to San Diego by way of Chicago before.

  • yes but (unregistered)

    The iPhone is suggesting that 'word', because he previously typed it in.

  • Garmoran (unregistered) in reply to Helmut Muelner
    Helmut Muelner:
    I subscribe to American magazines and I live in Austria. At least once a year the magazines are late by two months and have an undelivered message from Australia on their cover.

    I can top that: I live in the West Highlands of Scotland (overlooking the islands known as the Hebrides) and once arrived at work to find that the fax machine had received a message from the US that should have been sent to the New Hebrides (in the South Pacific). By sheer luck, once the (incorrect) international dialling code had been added to the recipient's number, the rest of the number corresponded to our fax number.

    I would have liked to be a fly on the wall at the office in the US as they reasoned out what the desired international dialling code was, though.

  • Dan (unregistered) in reply to Unsupported global dynamic element
    Unsupported global dynamic element:
    Silfax:
    Cgtegjjhferuhggffdgjk is what you get when you have your language set to rot13'd Welsh.
    rot13? That looks like straight up Welsh.

    It's rot26 Welsh

  • Mike (unregistered) in reply to JR

    The real WTF is you spouting off about a bunch of stuff you clearly didn't look at.

  • Jay (unregistered) in reply to Captain Oblivious
    Captain Oblivious:
    You fail to miss the point that "real freedom" means granting people the right to do things that affect you in ways you might not foresee. For example, a can company voluntarily enter into an exclusive contract with another organization (for example, a supplier of, say, labor or other factors of production). If a company has entered into such an exclusive contract, then you are not free to supply their needs. Their freedom has imposed a cost on yours. Get it now?

    "They" can't grant you the same freedom, because exercising their freedom has limited yours. No amount of whining or reality denial will change that.

    I don't think anyone's reading this thread anymore, but for what it's worth ...

    I'm not a libertarian, but I'm sympathetic to some of their ideas.

    The libertarian idea of freedom is basically that people should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as all parties involved voluntarily agree.

    The liberal idea of freedom is something more like, I should be allowed to do whatever I like, and if others refuse to cooperate, they must be forced to go along.

    If a company signs an exclusive contract with someone else, then yes, I do not have the "freedom" to sell to them. That is, I cannot force someone to do business with me against their will.

    The liberal thinks of this scenario and says, "That's terrible! How can someone refuse to give me money when I want it! There should be a law to force them to buy from me."

    The libertarian thinks of this scenario and says, "Well, duh. Of course if they don't want to buy from me, then that is their right. Whether that's because my product doesn't meet their quality standards, they have already committed to buy from someone else, or because they don't like the color of my hair."

  • (cs) in reply to Jay
    Jay:
    I don't think anyone's reading this thread anymore, but for what it's worth ...
    Damn, I knew I shouldn't have come back.
    Jay:
    The liberal idea of freedom is...
    The liberal thinks of this scenario and says...
    Man, it's shitloads of fun putting words in your opponents' mouths, amirite? It sure makes it easier to refute everything they say when you get to say it for them.

    And if there's one thing anyone discussing politics needs, it's to make it easier to sound right.

  • Anonymous Cow-Herd (unregistered) in reply to Jay

    It seems that your idea of freedom is FUCK YOU I WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL ME. In other words, not confirming to anyone else's rules. Except perhaps the lyrics to mediocre 90s metal tracks.

  • (cs) in reply to GalacticCowboy
    GalacticCowboy:
    Realistically, exploiting a "web bug" to determine whether you're reading their messages is a rather underhanded way of accomplishing something that doesn't really need to be explicitly determined. If a company sends me a bill and I pay it, I must have received it - whether I tripped their web bug or not. Same thing with monthly account statements for my bank.
    But what if the customer doesn't pay the bill? You ought to make at least some effort to check they received your bill before taking follow-up action. Maybe there was a glitch somewhere in the email system and they never actually received it? A lack of action might mean they didn't receive it, but it may mean they did receive it and decided they didn't want to pay it.

    Similarly, many (most?) account statements only require the customer to scan it and see if there's any unexpected charges. Usually there isn't so no action is taken, which is exactly the same response as if the customer never received it. How do you tell the difference?

    With snail mail, typically if the letter is not returned by the postal service as undeliverable it's deemed to have been received, but really using a web bug like this (or requiring the user to log on to their account on your website and access the information) is a much more reliable system. Just like with email, there's lots of reasons a physical letter may not be returned to the sender despite never having reached the intended recipient.

    All of this is, of course, dependent on Wells Fargo having a good reason to actually care if the email was received, but possibly there's regulations that require them to make reasonable efforts to confirm successful delivery. Even in the absence of government regulations, given the nature of their business I'd say it's a good thing that they actually verify their communications are reaching their customers and have a sane automatic fallback to a different method if it appears their messages are disappearing into a black hole.

  • Daniel (unregistered) in reply to ALapeño

    Carbon footprint? really? you realize that we all exhale carbon, and plants use it to carry out photosynthesis, right? "Carbon footprint" is a global tax scam meant to make everything you do taxable with the excuse that it is relevant to anthropogenic global warming ( which, by the way, is total bullshit ). Who the hell gives a [climategate] about "carbon footprints"?

  • eternicode (unregistered) in reply to method1
    method1:
    Dave:
    At least the left finally admits...

    The US doesn't have a visible left wing. Just "a right wing" & "a much more right wing".

    No, no, you've reversed it. It's "a left wing" & "a much more left wing".

    Either way, though, the bird ain't flyin'.

  • (cs) in reply to Capt. Obvious
    Capt. Obvious:
    Leftards lol:
    (or that the American Dream is for people so lazy they need others to negotiate for them)
    Leaving aside the virtues/vices of unions, do you really think the unions negotiations are just for people too lazy to negotiate themselves?

    Unions have more bargining power (replace all workers vs. one worker). Assuming equal skill, this would result in a better deal. Unions also have lower overhead costs to the business (negotiate one contract vs. 1000s). This allows more discussion time per contract.

    That assumes that the people who are doing the negotiating are competent to do the negotiating, and doing so with the best interests of the workers. As a general rule, they aren't and don't. Unions, therefore, are only of value when the company is interested in employing workers in an oppressive or unsustainable fashion.

    Oddly enough, I've seen a union that did represent its members, and the first difference between it and nigh all the others I've seen was they were optional: you could get a job at the same employer doing the same thing without being in the union (of course, you'd generally get lower pay, and the various other differences you'd expect in a non-union shop - and you'd be on the first short-list for layoffs if needed, unless you were really good. This was balanced out by the fact that, if you were really good, you could make more money out of the union than in it, and if you wanted to never work overtime - well, union members got first refusal on overtime, so long as they were qualified for the job, and union members aren't known for turning down time and a half.)

    To Mikey's point - just because one location couldn't comprehend voluntary unions properly doesn't mean the concept is flawed - just that someone implemented it poorly. The one place I saw didn't have most of those issues. Yes, people who weren't in the union complained they didn't get union benefits - but they were simply told they'd need to join the union to get said benefits, and that generally shut them up quickly. There were, admittedly, issues where the union would contest pay raises and stuff for non-union members, but that mostly only happened if the non-union employee let their pay details slip.

    Btw, for those who feel that unions universally represent the best interests of their members, I once worked in a union shop where the majority of the employees paid more in union dues than their wages were above minimum wage, even though working conditions were only comparable to those at competing local businesses without unions. The majority of these people would not get a raise beyond that status before they left the company for another job - partially because the union was so oppressive to its members that they couldn't bear to stick around long enough to rise through the ranks - especially since there were competing local businesses without unions. In some cases, this was because one of the union practices was to squelch the promotion of anyone who was vocally unhappy with the union - one of my coworkers had been there over 20 years and was still entry level. On the other hand, it was hard to feel sorry for him, because he worked the same effectively below minimum wage job for over 20 years without even looking for another job.

  • penis (unregistered)

    dickbutt

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